In this episode of the PBD Podcast Patrick Bet-David will host a religious roundtable to discuss different perspectives of religion. Today's guests are Daniel Haqiqatjou, Robert Spencer, Brother Rachid, and Jake Brancatella.
Subscribe to Daniel Haqiqatjou's YouTube channel: https://bit.ly/3ZqM8lE
Visit Daniel Haqiqatjou's website: https://bit.ly/464YceX
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Visit Robert Spencer's website JihadWatch.org: https://bit.ly/3RvRuu3
Visit Brother Rachid's website BrotherRachid.com: https://bit.ly/48qIFYk
Purchase Brother Rachid's book "The Ideology Behind Islamic Terrorism": https://bit.ly/464XLkP
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Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal Bestseller Your Next Five Moves (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
00:00 Intro
10:45 Opposition to Islam
33:03 Con
44:05 Tolerance
1:06:12 Why do Muslims move to Christian nations?
1:25:00 Divisions within religion
1:44:15 Dylan Mulvaney
1:46:01 Enemies
1:49:11 Why do 74% of Muslims vote Democrat?
Why would you bet on Goliath when we got fed David?
Value payment, giving values contagious.
This world of entrepreneurs, we can't no value to hate it.
Howdy, running, homie, look what I become.
I'm the one.
Okay, so today we have a very unique podcast here.
We have some friends here.
We were talking earlier to discuss the importance of the NBA and the greatest players of all time.
That's what we're going to talk about.
It has nothing to do with faith, nothing to do with religion, no discussion.
But in all seriousness, I've been looking forward to this for a while.
I know it's a bit of a sensitive setup to have it like this.
We discussed, it was supposed to be a different couple different individuals, brothers from your end coming in.
And then Mohammed Hijab and I had a call together.
We had a Zoom.
He had some challenges.
And I got to give a shout out to Eddie, the Dean Show.
He's here with us as well, but he's sitting outside to have the discussion for us to be here together.
Robert, I respect all of you for coming out.
Truly, I respect you for coming out.
My outcome.
I want to first share with you and the audience what my outcome of this is.
So as a father of four, I'm a little bit concerned about what's going on with the country in America.
I escaped Iran.
We went to Germany at a refugee camp.
Then we came here.
I now have four kids, and I love America.
I think this is an incredible nation.
It's changed my life.
But some of the things that's going on right now, it's kind of weird.
It's strange.
It's not normal.
It doesn't seem normal to me.
And I have friends.
I'm a Christian myself.
I'm a non-denominational Christian.
People know that's my position.
But I have a lot of friends that are Muslims.
I have Scientologist friends.
I have Mormon friends.
I have Jews who are here with us as well.
So I wanted to bring this up because we're going to discuss a few different things today.
Number one is the differences in the religion of Christianity and Muslim.
We'll discuss that.
And then we'll discuss the enemy.
Who is the enemy to Christians?
Who is the enemy to Muslims?
And then we're going to share who our common enemies are.
And some funny questions I want to ask you.
We'll have some levity here as well to enjoy the discussion.
And then there'll be an opportunity for you guys to also discuss with each other.
This is not a debate.
This is a discussion.
Of course, there's going to be moments of debate and you giving your point of view that that's going to happen no matter what.
Naturally, the setting is where that is going to happen.
But I want to make sure everybody knows that's my outcome.
I think there is an area where if we can find common enemies, the enemy is greater than we think.
At the end, that's my outcome.
But with that being said, let me properly introduce everybody.
So first, we have Danielle Hegariteju.
Hagirat Jew.
Hagirat Jew.
I said it seven times properly, and then when we're on, I can't.
So Daniel Hagirat Jew attended Harvard University where he majored in physics and philosophy.
He's a Sunni Muslim debater who specializes in debating anti-Muslim figures.
He founded Muslimskeptic.com and teaches Islam at mosques and universities around the world.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you, Patrick.
And he has a book here as well, The Modernist Menace to Islam.
We'll put the link below as well, Rob, so if people want to pick it up, they can.
And then we have Jake Brancatella, right, who is here with us.
I was telling him earlier I'm used to that last name more often with some of the friends we interview.
He is the Muslim metaphysician, is a convert to Islam.
He holds a BA in philosophy and is currently studying for a master's in philosophy and theology.
Jake primarily debates Christians and atheists and is an active member of the Muslim Debate Initiative.
Then we have Brother Rashid here to my right.
He wrote a book called The Ideology Behind Islamic Terrorism, a Moroccan Christian convert and the host of the Daring Questions television program, where he discusses Christianity and engages with Islamic theology and religious topics.
Brother Rashid, thanks you for being here.
Thank you for having me.
And last but not least, Robert Spencer, American author and commentator, known for his writings of Islam, counterterrorism, and his involvement with the organizations like Jihad Watch, the most popular blog within the counter-jihad movement.
He's also written the truth about Muhammad.
He's written a critical Quran and also his latest book that's, I think, is that the critical Quran you have out here?
And he's read a few other things.
Rob, again, once again, thank you for being here as well.
So what I want to do is before we get started, you know, and I have some comments and questions here.
If you, you know, just for some of the audience that maybe they don't know the whole story, we can start off with anyone on how you came about your current position right now.
If you can take 30 seconds to a minute, given your background, and then we'll go from there.
So we're going to start off with you.
Robert, how did you go?
I've read your story.
Of course, I know your background.
I watch a lot of commentary on you.
How did you become the person that you are today?
Well, you know how one thing leads to another.
And I was fascinated with Islam in the Islamic world from a very early age because my grandparents actually are from the Ottoman Empire.
They were Greek Orthodox Christians in what is now Turkey and were exiled during World War I for not converting to Islam.
When I knew them, actually, my grandmother was the only person besides Barack Obama who said that the, who I knew, who said that the call to prayer, the Islamic call to prayer, was the most beautiful sound that she had ever heard.
And she would tell me stories about growing up in Turkey and how wonderful it was and how beautiful the land was, how wonderful the people were, and so on.
And so then I would ask the inevitable question.
I was, you know, five years old or whatever.
Well, then why are you here?
Why did you leave?
And then they would clam up and not tell me.
So this just made me more interested.
Started to study it, consulted with people, ended up consulting with some people in the 90s about these issues.
And then after 9-11, I was asked to write a book.
And now I've written 27 books, mostly on this issue.
And I watch you where you have a certain level of true 100% belief in what you're talking about.
We'll get into that here in a minute.
And I'm sure we'll get more about that.
Brother Rashid, how about yourself?
Yes, I grew up in Morocco.
My dad was an imam for a mosque, and I was Muslim like every other Moroccan.
At the age of 12, I was listening to a radio program.
That's when I heard about Christianity.
And I started comparing between Islam and Christianity.
I was fascinated with the person of Jesus in the Gospels.
And I was shocked with the life of Muhammad when I compared it to the life of Jesus.
Then I converted at the age of 16, 17.
Then I had to leave my family, actually.
They rejected me.
I lived as a homeless for two years.
And I had to live underground with the Moroccan church, the converse, until 2005.
I had to flee the country.
2005, you had to flee the country.
Yeah.
Okay.
And we'll get into your story as well a little bit more when topics come up.
Jake, how about yourself?
What's your story?
What's your background?
Yeah, so I was raised a Roman Catholic.
My entire family is Roman Catholic up until today.
I personally never really believed in the religion, primarily because the theology never really made much sense to me.
As I grew older in my late teens and going into university years, I naturally, you know, the mind starts to think about the deeper questions in life.
What's the purpose of life?
Does God exist?
What religion is true?
And so I went on this search and eventually found the path of Islam, primarily because I believe that it's the only religion today that truly supports pure monotheism.
I know that Christians, and maybe we'll get into this in the discussion, claim to be, but I found doctrines like the Trinity and Incarnation to be completely incoherent and found problems with them.
And the Islamic narrative of there being one and only true God that is worthy of worship and that he sent prophets and messengers with this consistent message throughout time was very inviting to me and fit with my natural disposition.
And I became a Muslim in my early 20s about 10 years ago and been Muslim ever since.
Fantastic.
Thank you for that.
Daniel, how about yourself?
Yeah, my background is my parents came from Iran.
They're both from Shiraz.
I was born in the U.S. actually and was raised here in Houston, Texas.
And I love my parents.
And they raised me like an Iranian, had a strong Iranian Persian identity.
As I was in high school and then college, I started to become more religious, like learning about my background from my grandparents, for example, from my dad.
And I just became more religious, started practicing Islam.
I became Sunni.
So I'm from a Shiite background.
I became Sunni.
And in college, I went to Harvard University.
There was a lot of pressure on Muslims at that time because of like the war on terror, counter-terrorism efforts.
And there was this effort to liberalize Islam and to say that traditional Islam or the Quran or the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, their teachings are not consistent with modern life, with modernism and liberal secularism.
And this posed a conflict for me.
Like, how do I reconcile a traditional Islam with liberalism, secularism, and these modern ideologies?
So I went and studied philosophy and I became critical of these ideologies, like modern liberal secularism, humanism, atheism, these isms.
And that's, you know, the title of my book, basically, or a subtitle of my book, is critiquing these isms that I believe, and through my study, they're destroying humanity.
Not just Islam, but just all of humanity is under threat from these isms that are destroying human society.
I hope we can talk about that today.
But I dedicated my career basically to promoting this message, teaching Islam, teaching how Islam solves many of the problems and difficulties that all people face in society, not just Muslims.
I love that.
Okay, thank you for that again, gentlemen.
Thank you for sharing your background.
So let's get right into it.
Robert, what is your biggest challenge with the religion of Islam?
What's your biggest challenge with it?
You mean the biggest difficulty I see in it?
I would say the biggest difficulty because to me, I see it from a few different places, right?
One, there's faith, meaning none of us have gone to heaven to see what heaven's going to look like.
We're all taking a risk.
All of us here are taking a risk.
Either we're all going to be right, either we're all going to be wrong, or either one of us is going to be right, meaning one group's going to be right and the other is going to be wrong.
But we don't know that's faith, that's prayer.
Of course, we've had great experiences in life to say, I had a connection with God.
I had a moment with that, that, that.
And then that's individual to us, right?
So to me, it's faith, it's religion, it's enemies, it's common enemies, it's the challenges that's going on in the world, specifically with America as being for the longest time the greatest country in the world.
What is affecting that?
And then there's a few other things that we'll talk about into as well.
But for me, it's more from the standpoint of when you've said you've read the Quran dozens of times.
You've studied it.
You've written about it.
You've talked about it.
Even I think the government used two of your books in 2011 that Wire talked about, right?
I don't know what the two books were.
I think one of them was about Prophet Muhammad.
So your background, you've been in this world.
What is your biggest challenge and differences with the religion of Islam?
Well, you know, probably the main thing is the sanctification of violence and the idea that God will bless and even calls upon the believers to commit acts of violence under certain circumstances.
Like Rashid here is an ex-Muslim.
And so under Islamic law, as it's traditionally and classically formulated, he would be put to death.
Muhammad said, anybody who changes his religion, kill him.
And it's still the position of all of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence, Sunnient Shia, that the apostate should be put to death.
Now, obviously, this is not something that means that every apostate has to always go around watching himself because you have to have somebody who's willing to do that.
But those who do do it, they think, well, now I have done something that Allah has commanded and he will bless me for doing it.
And me myself, because I was standing up for the freedom of speech 2015, Pamela Geller and I put on in Texas a Muhammad art exhibit and cartoon contest.
And it was actually, we featured a lot of classic Shiite Persian art depicting Muhammad, as well as contemporary art that was from a more critical standpoint.
And a couple of jihadis came from Phoenix, key members actually of the Islamic Community Center of Phoenix.
One of them was featured in a recruitment video for them, and they tried to kill us.
And so I actually would be also under a death sentence just for drawing Muhammad and for sponsoring people who do, which I did not in order to cause gratuitous insult, but to defend the freedom of speech and freedom of expression, which is the foundation of any genuinely free society.
Daniel, what would you say to that?
What's your response to that?
Yeah, so just a few points here.
Number one, it's interesting how we want to talk about Islam as a religion, but the religion is 95% like what Jake mentioned.
It's about worshiping God, being devoted to a righteous way of life, loving your neighbors, taking care of your parents.
That's what 95% of Islam is about.
Yes, there are criminal punishments, which we're going to discuss.
There is conquest.
There is war theory.
There's all of this in Islam.
But it's interesting how when a conversation is about Islam, we focus on that 5% instead of the 95% of what Islam is about.
We don't see this kind of double standard with like Christians.
So if you have someone like Matt Walsh, Matt Walsh is a traditional Christian.
There's slavery in the Bible.
There's punishment for blasphemers in the Bible.
There's killing of heretics in the church tradition.
There's no discussion of that with Matt Walsh, right?
Or Ben Shapiro.
There is killing of blasphemers in the Hebrew Bible.
There is, you know, punishments for apostasy in the Talmud.
There's no discussion of that with Ben Shapiro.
You can talk about, you know, other values, and that's what the discussion focuses on.
But the Islamophobic narrative is just blazering in on these specific topics, which is fine.
We can discuss that.
But I just want to note the double standard.
So the other framing of this whole discussion that I want to put out here, though, is that I'm wondering, like this standard of, oh, there should be no punishment for blasphemy, for example.
Let's just put that out there.
There should be no punishment for mocking and insulting a religion, attacking people's values.
Is that coming from a Christian perspective?
Is that coming from the church tradition?
Is that coming from the Bible?
Because when we look at the Bible, we see in Leviticus, we see in Deuteronomy that blasphemers should be put to death.
Even if you entice, you know, the Bible says if you entice like your son or your daughter or your wife entices you to worship other than God, then have no mercy.
Put them to death without due process mentioned, without any kind of court or tribunal.
The husband or the father should just immediately put them to death without mercy.
That's what the Bible says.
So, when Robert wants to criticize Islam, I'm wondering: is that criticism on the basis of the Bible?
Is that on the basis of the church tradition?
Or is this a liberal, secular, modernist critique of Islam?
So, I want to know: am I debating or discussing with two Christians or two atheists or two liberal secularists?
Like, that's a clarification that we need.
May I ask?
Yes.
This is a very important clarification, and there are a couple of distinctions that have to be made.
One is, all of your examples from Christianity are from Old Testament law, which, if you had studied Christianity, you would know there's no sect of Christianity, no school of Christian thought, no tradition within Christianity that holds that Old Testament law applies to Christians for all time.
As a matter of fact, it never did apply.
Even in Judaism, after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the rabbis redefined Judaism so that even they don't teach that those punishments have ongoing validity.
So, you're talking about something that nobody in mainstream Judaism or Christianity thinks is valid today, versus something that unfortunately all too many Muslims do think is valid today.
And the bringing up of ancient historical wrongdoing is all very well, and there's certainly a place for that.
I've got no interest in denying any of the misdeeds of Christians throughout history.
But the problem that we have in Islam is that these passages of the Quran that are problematic, passages of Muhammad's traditions that are problematic, they are still considered to be in force by very large numbers of Muslims, such that all the major terrorist groups around the world are Islamic groups.
And you don't have any Christian terrorist groups saying Jesus is Lord and blowing people up.
There's a reason for that.
And the reasons have to do with the interpretative traditions in both religions.
Can I comment?
Go ahead, please.
Yeah, so I would ask Robert a very simple question that I think gets at what the real issue actually is.
Do you believe that it's inherently immoral for an apostate to be put to death?
Do I believe that it's inherently immoral for an apostate to be put to be put to be put to be dead?
Is it inherently immoral?
Well, I know this is some kind of trap, but in any case, it's just honesty on your part.
That's all.
You can always have honesty on my part.
Everything I tell you is the truth.
Okay, so the fact is that, yeah, I don't know.
I tell you the truth, I haven't thought about it.
Okay, you haven't thought about it.
Well, you're writing all of these books on Islam to talk about criticizing Islam.
And you don't even know if this is inherently immoral.
That's quite shocking.
I would say that I don't think that it's moral to put the apostate to death.
So it's immoral.
As it comes to my books about Islam, I'm just reporting on what Islamic clerics and the Islamic tradition teaches about passages like when Muhammad says if somebody changes his religion, kill him.
So if you look, for example, in chapter 4, verse 89 of the Quran and the critical Quran, where it says if they turn renegade, then come and kill them wherever you find them, then I give Islamic authorities who actually say that this should be done.
And that is something people need to know.
Now, whether you're talking about in the ideal society, you have apostates put to death.
I don't think so because I believe in the freedom of conscience and the idea of the dignity of the human person, which is a Christian concept that's not in Islam.
You have in Islam, you know, the unbelievers are the most vile of created beings, according to chapter 19, verse 6.
Let's talk about Christian.
I understand.
But this is all the same issue.
Whereas in Christianity, People are equal in dignity as made in the image of God.
And so, in that sense, I would say, no, I don't think it is.
So, is it inherently immoral, yes or no?
Can I say that?
It is.
It is.
So, when the Bible, when Deuteronomy, since you like to quote the Quran, when the Bible says this in Deuteronomy 13:6, if your brother, the son of your mother, your son of, or your son of your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend, who has your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, quote, let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far from you,
from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him, but you shall surely kill him.
Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt from the house of bondage.
So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.
So when, let me, let me finish.
Let me comment on the passage.
So when you're loving God, Jesus Christ, who you believe is God, who revealed the Old Testament and revealed this as a law for the people, and you said that it's inherently immoral for the punishment of apostasy to be death, then you are charging your own God and supposedly loving Jesus with immorality.
Not at all.
If you don't see that contradiction and hypocrisy, it can't really do much for you.
Well, it's not in the least contradictory or hypocritical because that is God actually ordering something directly.
Now, the question here is whether the Muslims, when they put people to death for apostasy today, are likewise authorized by God in some direct manner.
Now, that's what matters.
Yes, the question is.
And it's not inherently immoral.
It just matters what is the correct religion and whether or not God is actually revealing it.
Yeah, if you study the Old Testament, you will actually find that there's a great deal of discussion about passages like that and whether they are actually commands by God, whether they were understood by the faithful, interpretations by the faithful.
The evolving understanding in the Old Testament and the New and in Jewish and Christian tradition is something that unfortunately is absent in Islam, such that in Jewish and Christian tradition, you have the understanding of the dignity of the human person that ultimately made people realize that putting people to death for apostasy was not something that was acceptable.
But the idea that it was a localized command at some point or understood to be such, that is not the same thing as people nowadays thinking they are the executors of the wrath of Allah because Muhammad says if anybody changes his religion, kill him.
And the Quran says that you can soothe your heart by fighting the unbelievers and so on.
Robert, can we hear from Brother Rashid for one brother Rashid?
Go forward.
What's on your mind?
Because this concerns me.
Do you believe I should be put to death?
I believe that the punishment for apostasy in a correct Islamic state is death.
I believe that that's the correct.
You'll finish.
Let me just respond, sir.
I believe that that is the correct punishment which has been revealed by God both in the Quran and the Bible.
And for Robert to turn around, I asked you, let me finish.
I asked you, do you believe I should be killed today?
And I answered you, sir.
Yes or no?
I answered you.
Yes or no.
I answered you.
In a proper Islamic jurisprudent jurisdiction, an Islamic nation, all of the laws of Islam and the Sharia as revealed by God should be applied.
So, if we were in that kind of state, would you do it?
Including with proper due process, with a proper court hearing, just like any nation of laws, the laws of the Sharia should be applied, including the death penalty for not only apostates, but also blasphemers.
You didn't answer me, yes or no?
We did answer.
Yes, we did answer.
So, I should be killed.
We did answer.
I deserve to be killed because I left Islam and became a Christian.
According to Islamic law, an apostate like you would be killed.
Yes.
Okay, thank you.
And of course, this is a fallacy, Robert.
Too cockwy.
Like, you want to say you have it too.
It's a fallacy.
Let us discuss this because it's a fallacy.
Let me finish.
Please condemn Jesus.
You think you condemn Jesus.
Robert.
Robert.
No, you're lying.
Let me finish.
You're going to be on record saying you're lying about that.
Let me finish.
That's what happened.
You're lying.
Just let me finish.
You converted.
You converted from Christianity to Islam.
Your life is not under threat here in the U.S.
I converted from Islam to Christianity.
My life is under death.
That's the difference between Christianity and Islam.
Okay, so let me ask you this.
I got a question for you guys.
I'm a data guy.
I'm a finance guy.
How many Christians have died going from being Christian to Muslim?
How many Muslims have actually been killed or died going from being a Muslim to a Christian?
There's no data on that because these kinds of things are not recorded.
They're not considered crime.
There should be no, right?
We shouldn't be.
Even if there's some stories to be able to say X, Y, Z individual.
I have stories.
I have one in Mauritania who was condemned to be executed.
We just got him out to Paris because we negotiated with the government there.
I have people right now in Libya.
They are under the death penalty in Libya.
I have people who got killed in Jordan, for example, because I do my show.
People contact me.
I have people who got killed in Jordan.
Their parents killed them because they became Christians from a Muslim background.
We have people in different places in the world.
In the Muslim community, they kill them.
And if they get to flee, that's the best outcome.
I got a question.
So while I'm studying this, there's also, Daniel said something very interesting where the guidelines of Quran is based on the jurisdiction of the government, meaning where you live, the religion is follow whatever the laws are of that nation.
Meaning, you can correct me.
I'm just giving you what I've looked into.
Does this mean these rules apply no matter where you live?
Is that across the board?
Or is it more stricter in certain Muslim nations than other Christian nations?
Islam is to be applied forever on every place since the time of Muhammad until today.
So Muslims are just seeking to be a majority one day.
And if Muslims are majority today, these two brothers will witness my killing in front of people and they will be happy cheering the crowds that I was killed.
So if the U.S. became majority Muslim today, you would be killed.
I will be killed.
Sharia is to be applied everywhere, every time.
And that's the biggest difference with Christianity because Jesus came and he stopped the Old Testament.
He stopped every, he didn't stone the lady who committed adultery.
He said in the law, tooth for tooth, and he said, no, you turn the other cheek.
Jesus stopped the Old Testament.
They don't have a New Testament in Islam.
They have worse than the Old Testament.
They have something that Muhammad never corrected.
Today we have to do jihad.
Today we have to kill the apostate.
Today we have to kill the person who doesn't pray, even a Muslim.
If he stops praying, if he stops praying, he should be killed.
If he has no excuse, he should be killed according to Islam.
I'd like to give them a chance to respond.
Daniel, what would you say?
Because the point I think you were making was how that maybe doesn't apply based on what the countries are.
And then he makes a good point about saying, but if U.S. eventually becomes majority Muslim, then that could be the criteria that we have to follow in the U.S. What's your response to that?
Yeah, so there are a lot of inaccuracies in what he's talking about.
I want to reframe the issue because he's saying that his life is in danger.
But the lives of Muslims are in danger under a secular liberal hegemony.
And I know that some of the viewers might not be following what I'm discussing, but look at the war on terror, or even look at me personally or Jake.
But I say things that are contrary to liberalism.
I critique and criticize liberal secularism.
And what is liberal secularism?
It's this philosophy that came out of the Enlightenment out of the 18th and 19th century in Europe.
And it was imposed on the entire globe by force through colonialism, through imperial wars.
And the idea of liberal secularism is that morality should not be based on these old books like the Quran and the Bible.
We have to use reason and science to maximize individual happiness, individual freedom, and equality.
And this is the best system of life.
It's an atheistic system of life.
We need to have separation of church and state, etc.
This is the dominant, I don't want to say religion, but it's a dominant ideology in the world today.
And it's imposed through, you know, the UN Security Council, international rights law, etc.
But it's coming from a very specific philosophy that is anti-religion.
And Muslims who criticize this system are put on watch lists, we're banned from traveling.
Some of us are drone-striked.
Some of us are detained.
Some of us face all kinds of canceling, deplatforming.
Our livelihoods are threatened.
I get death threats all the time.
Almost every day I'm getting a death threat because of my opposition to this hegemony, liberal secularism.
There is no quote-unquote freedom of religion because if you oppose this hegemony, if you oppose this system, you will be put to death.
And I know you've had some very distinguished guests like Glenn Greenwald, Whitney Webb, and they talk about this system.
Alex Jones, they talk about this system.
They might not put it in the same exact way that I'm putting it, but it is this authoritarian, centralized, theocratic, not theocratic, technological system.
And yes, plenty of people are getting killed.
What was the Iraq War about?
What was the Afghanistan war about?
How many millions of Muslims were killed because of those invasions?
What were those invasions justified on the basis of?
It wasn't on the basis of the Bible.
I wouldn't put that on Christians.
I would put it on spreading freedom, spreading democracy, spreading liberal values, and quote-unquote women's rights.
That's what millions of Muslims in the past 20 years have been killed for, slaughtered, genocided because of this ideology.
So yes, Muslims are under threat.
Muslims are far more threat than the few Christians here and there that might leave Islam to become Christian.
Go forward.
Well, in the first place, when it comes to secular liberalism, Daniel and I are completely in agreement.
We're both against it.
We both see that it's evil.
And in that sense, you were talking about working together, finding common ground.
That is the common ground that we have.
The idea of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were completely wrong, based on false premises, false assumptions, based on the idea that they could bring democracy to the Islamic world.
It was never gonna happen.
I was warning about it before it started, but was not heeded.
But the fact is that, and also, when it comes to death threats, we could probably have a contest and see, but I get them many, many, many, many daily, mostly from Muslims, but not always.
And the left is increasingly unhinged and out of control.
But if Daniel is positing that Islam is somehow the alternative, then I would wonder how is it that all the Muslim politicians in the United States, including a Sharia, an obvious publicly Sharia adherent, one like Ilhan Omar and Rashid Atleb as well, Keith Ellison, Andre Carson, the publicly Muslim Quran adherent politicians, and yet they're all very far on the left.
And they're aiding this secular liberal monster that Daniel so rightly opposes.
And so it's hard to see how Islam can be the remedy when you don't even have a single politician of the Islamic faith who is standing against all that.
Brother Rashid, what's your biggest criticism of, because you were a Muslim before and you converted.
What was your biggest reasoning for doing so?
My biggest reasoning, and I want to comment on a point that I forgot to come last time.
Our brother, he said, the 5% of Islam we are focusing on.
If you have this glass of water and you have 95% for it is water, but 5% is poison, it's going to kill you.
So this is exactly what we have with Islam.
Yes, you can talk about God, you talk about worshiping, but how about violence against people like me?
How about violence against Christians and Jews?
You are ordered to wage war against them.
That's what happened to my ancestors in Morocco.
Berbers, they were Christians.
They were executed.
They were enslaved.
That's what happened to people in Egypt, in Iraq, in Syria, and even in Europe.
How about that?
How about people who, for example, against women, Islam against women.
And you should note that they endorsed the death penalty for apostasy right here.
Yeah, let me finish.
Let me just finish against women.
Women should be beaten if they disobey their husbands.
My mom was beaten, my Imam dad.
When I asked him why, he said, it's in the Quran.
You cannot object to that.
They cannot object to it.
It's in the Quran.
It should be applied.
It's a permission for man to beat his wife.
It's in the Quran.
It's the word of Allah Himself.
Again, when I studied the life of Muhammad, in 10 years, he waged 83 wars in 10 years.
27 wars and 56 raids in 10 years.
And you are going to teach me that Islam is peaceful?
No, it's not peaceful.
Are you going to give a Nobel Prize for somebody who waged 83 wars?
No, you will not.
And another thing, Muhammad is not a role model.
Jesus is.
Muhammad, he had many wives, 11 of them.
One of them, she was nine years old.
He was 53.
I am 50.
I cannot marry a girl that has nine years old.
You cannot.
That's abuse.
And Muhammad did that.
Let me finish this.
He took, he raided a Jewish tribe.
He killed the whole family of a newly bride called Safiya.
And he took her as a wife the same time he was returning to Medina.
Would you put that as a role model for me today in the 21st century?
He had another wife called Rehanna.
My daughter, her name is Rihanna.
I named her specifically for that.
He took a Jewish wife, Rihanna, and he did sex with her, not with her will.
He did against their wills, all these ladies.
Are you going to put him as a role model?
You cannot compare Jesus with Muhammad.
Jesus never killed a person.
He never killed an apostate.
He never waged a war.
So he was a role model for me.
That's why I loved Muhammad and I wanted to follow Jesus.
They are going to keep trying, bring the Old Testament.
Name one person that Jesus killed because he was an apostate.
Judas, he gave him to the Jews and he never ordered his disciples to kill him.
I have people who just criticized Muhammad once and he ordered his disciples to go and kill him, even lying.
His name is Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf.
He's a Jewish guy.
They killed him.
They lied to him.
They took him and they killed him.
He even encouraged a guy who was blind.
He killed his wife.
He had two kids and he killed her.
He came to the prayer and he said Muhammad praised the guy for killing his own wife just because she criticized Muhammad.
So these are the rules that they want to apply today.
If we criticize Muhammad, we should be killed.
Like what happened with Sharli Ibdu.
Do you think those people, they just killed the people who drove the caricature for Muhammad just because like that?
No, because it's written in Islam that they should kill people who criticize Muhammad.
So Islam is a big problem.
Even the 5% can kill whole humanity.
Can I have a response before?
I want to comment on what he said and also Robert's remark about us endorsing the punishment for apostasy.
Yes, we do.
Why?
Because our claim is that we are actually faithful to our scriptures.
You guys are not.
You want to avoid the Old Testament.
And I want to give you an analogy, Patrick, because you're a business guy.
You have many businesses, okay?
And you have policies that you have to put in place based on social interaction in the workplace and all that kind of stuff.
Now, you may make amendments to those policies based on new data, new information, how things are actually going based on those things that you put in place.
Now, when you do, right?
And this is the analogy between the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Are you willing to say that, well, yeah, I'm thinking to myself, yeah, Pat, yeah, you were wrong, actually, when you said it was okay to do such and such.
That was actually wrong.
And you then put in the correct one.
With the Bible, the problem that you have is the same one that you want to talk about, the loving Jesus Christ himself, which we also adore and respect as a prophet, is the same one that you believe is God and revealed the Old Testament.
And you can't get out of that.
So when your God, Jesus, revealed at that specific time, as I just read the passage, and I can read you plenty more where he says to kill babies in war.
Is it okay to target infants in war and kill babies?
Is that inherently immoral?
The problem that you have is if you go on, and this is why the argument is so important.
It's not a two queue just as a fallacious argument.
It's checking for your consistency as a Christian, whether or not you're actually faithful to your own text and tradition.
And the reality is you're not.
Why?
You have two options.
If you condemn it as inherently immoral, then the whole Bible's gone.
Because if you believe that those Bibles were, that those verses in the Bible were revealed by God, then you're saying that God is immoral.
And on the other hand, if you say that it's not inherently immoral, but God changed the law at this time, then most of your arguments lose the force that they have against Islam because you can no longer argue that it is inherently immoral to punish an apostate by death and all of the other things that you want to tack on.
This is why it's so important.
It's not a fallacious argument.
And the reality is we want to stick to our text and our tradition.
And for the most part, we would argue that the Christians have abandoned them in favor of secular, liberal moral ideologies.
Let me have Daniel respond and then I'll come to you.
Go for it.
Yeah, so there are a lot of things that we need to respond to because he's just listing every grievance that he has against Islam.
We have to take it step by step.
But just on this point of violence, you know, I think Jake makes really the crucial point.
It's that Jesus, according to the Christian belief, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.
And he's the one who's commanding Moses, for example, to ethnically cleanse the Canaanites or the Amalekites or all of these other tribes and to conduct conquests and war, to take girls as slaves, to take virgins as slaves.
This is in the Old Testament, sure.
So you have to deal, Christians have to deal with that moral problem.
A lot of Christians, unfortunately, they just throw the Bible under the bus.
And, you know, how is that justified?
But it's not just the Old Testament.
It's also the New Testament.
The New Testament also has endorses slavery.
The New Testament also has the book of Revelation where Jesus is going to come, which by the way, Muslims also believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
He is the born of the Virgin Mary and he's going to come as the Messiah to establish God's kingdom on earth.
Muslims also accept and believe that and we're anticipating that.
But he's going to be very violent.
It's going to be a very violent affair.
And that's in the Muslim tradition and the hadith.
And it's also in the book of Revelation.
So Jesus is also very violent.
And then finally, you have canon law.
You have the church tradition.
So if Robert wants to denounce canon law, because when you have canon law, it has slavery.
It has a marriage age of 12 years old in canon law.
It has punishments for blasphemy.
It has even, you know, striking the wife, the disobedient wife.
That's found in canon law from Gratian.
So I believe that Robert is an Orthodox Christian.
If he wants to denounce canon law and denounce his own tradition, he can denounce that.
He can denounce Jesus himself.
He can denounce the Old Testament.
He can denounce the Bible.
The New Testament, that's fine.
That's fine.
He says that, oh, well, our religion adapts.
Our religion changes.
But that's actually the problem, Patrick.
You know, when we're talking about wokeism, when we're talking about like, if you can say that, oh, well, you know, that's the Old Testament is for those times.
It's not applicable now, right?
That's that's the argument, the violence, the killing, the killing of blasphemers.
That's for old times.
We've changed, but Muslims are not willing to change.
I say, yeah, Muslims are willing to stand by revelation.
The problem with a lot of Christians, not all Christians, a lot of Christians, Jews, Hindus, they all have these practices in their books.
Buddhists, they all have these practices, and they're pressured to change and update.
And so why, if you can get rid of the conquest and the violence and the punishment for apostasy, why not just get rid of the prohibition of like cross-dressing, the prohibition of homosexuality, the prohibition of drag queens?
Why prohibit any of that?
Like maybe times are different.
Maybe we need to adopt drag queen story hour in our church.
Maybe we need to adopt, you know, all of these woke practices.
Why not?
And Robert, here's what I would say.
You're making a very good argument.
And I can totally feel where you're coming from as well.
Obviously, just so everybody knows, have we ever had a conversation together prior to this debate?
I just want everybody that's watching.
Have you and I ever spoken?
We just met a few minutes ago.
Have you and I ever spoken?
Have you and I?
No, I did that intentionally.
I did that intentionally because I want it to be the first interaction we have where it's not like, well, you know, this topic, do you want this?
Do you want that?
And nobody was given additional topics or what you just kind of came in.
We're going to talk.
We're going to have this discussion.
Again, I respect you guys for doing this.
I think the part I agree with Daniel, and it could be a leak, it could be a flaw, or it could be a strength as well as the following.
What I'm noticing between the two faiths is one seems to be more intolerant, more intolerant, and the other one's more tolerant.
Let me unpack that from my perspective.
For the longest time since I became a, since I started praying in September of 1997, I've prayed for four things: courage, wisdom, tolerance, understanding.
The last six months, I've been having a hard time praying for the third thing, which is tolerance.
And the reason for it is because I think Christians are becoming way too tolerant.
Now, the standards could be extreme.
Somebody could be watching and saying, guys, what are you talking about?
You mean to tell me you're okay to hit your wife and do this and do that and apostasy and all this stuff?
That's ridiculous for you to think that.
And you may say, well, look, we're at least staying committed to our faith.
They're not.
They're picking and choosing what they like and they're not.
That could be the argument.
All I'm saying is that's their argument, what they're saying.
But then the other side is when you're saying what you're saying, you know, stats came out right now as well about Pew Research on statistics on Muslims' view on LGBTQ.
You're now going to go through this as well with your faith, with your religion.
Pew Research says that 52% of American Muslims believe homosexuality should be accepted by society.
This is according to Pew Research.
Among Muslim American millennials, that jumped to 60%.
This was done in 2017, so it's six years old, which I would assume it's even higher today than what it was then.
The survey also revealed that Muslim women are much more accepting of LGBT people than their male counterparts.
They're at 63%, men are at 42%.
Just so you know, the difference between women and men, about 21% difference.
And a vast majority of religious LGBTQ Americans are Christians, split fairly amongst Catholics, 25%, Protestants, 28%, and Christian denomination, 24.5%.
Only about 2.5% of Jews are for it, and 2% are Muslims.
Okay?
So he makes the point that you are more tolerant of a religion.
When I say you, you're not representing everybody in a Christian.
You could be your own kind of a Christian.
There's different sects in the Christian.
But from an outsider watching in and trying to be as fair as possible, I see we're not being tolerant.
You're not going to say anything about our prophet.
You're not going to say anything about our religion.
We're going to defend this.
These are our values.
We're going to protect it.
We're going to fight for it.
This is important to us.
This is our livelihood.
This is what we stand for.
And Christians are like, it's okay.
Don't worry about it.
It's okay.
Don't worry about it.
It's okay.
Don't worry about it.
And then it's bringing out more flaws and arguments in the Christian religion.
And I'm saying this as a Christian myself.
What's your rebuttal to that?
Well, what you're talking about in a large part is a retreat from and a rejection of Christianity, not actual Christianity.
Christianity stands for certain values, stands for certain principles.
And when the West was Christian, then you didn't see all this craziness that you see in the society today.
It's when the West starts to discard Christianity that all these things come in.
Like Chesterton said, when people stop believing in God, it's not that they believe in nothing, they believe in anything.
And we're seeing that illustrated every day now with increasingly insane public discourse coming from the left and especially a social discourse.
But this is not Christianity.
Now, to be sure, you're absolutely right.
There are a lot of leftist and liberal Christians who have essentially discarded Christianity.
And under the guise of Christianity, it's kind of like invasion of the body snatchers Christianity.
You remember that movie?
People would appear and they looked just the same, but the space aliens had taken their personalities and replaced them.
And that's what we have with a great deal of Christianity today.
Unfortunately, it's been infected by exactly this kind of liberalism.
And so a lot of people turn away thinking that's Christianity when actually these people are not Christian in anything except the name.
But there's a great deal more that Daniel mentioned.
Am I going to get a chance to respond?
You can respond right now.
Okay.
The thing, the problem that you guys have is that you're reading the Bible as if it were the Quran.
In the Quran, it's dictated.
Allah dictated every word, and it's applicable for all time.
It's all flattened out and on the same level.
The Bible is simply not like that.
In the first place, you have the very simple notation of the Gospels, the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Now, in the Christian faith, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were inspired, but that doesn't mean that God was dictating to them and that it was beyond their human understanding.
Like when St. Paul, in one of his letters, and he says, I'm glad I didn't come to baptize any of you.
Well, actually, I did baptize a couple people, and I forget who else, but I still didn't come to baptize.
It's not that God is forgetting who he baptized and who he didn't, but Paul is working from his human understanding, and yet he is speaking the truths, the eternal truths that God wants him to communicate.
A lot of the Bible is the record of the evolving understanding of the people of God about precisely a lot of these issues that you're talking about.
And so you can't go back and flatten it out as if it were the Quran and say, Jesus is here telling people to kill people, and therefore you have to approve of it.
That's just not how the Bible works.
What you have is an understanding that the people had at that time that's expressed in that way.
And then later, because of the teachings that Jesus gives in the New Testament primarily of the dignity of the universal dignity of the human person and various other aspects of the understanding of humanity, that's why slavery is abolished and slavery was only abolished in Christian contexts, primarily in the UK and the United States to start with, and then it followed around the world because people understood,
even though slavery is in the Bible and in the New Testament, yes.
At the same time, also, there's the idea that all people are made in the image of God and have that dignity.
So there's not the dichotomy like in the Quran, Muhammad is the apostle of Allah, those who follow him are merciful to one another, ruthless to the unbelievers, chapter 48, verse 29.
So it was Christian clerics in the UK and the United States who led the fight to abolish slavery based on the deeper Christian principles regarding the dignity of the human person.
Yeah, so why can't you evolve?
Why can't Christians evolve to accept transgender and drag queen story art?
Why can't things evolve even more?
Actually, because that's the principles.
Yeah, it's a good question.
I'm trying to answer it.
It's because of the same principles.
The idea of transgender, human dignity, and that means both physically and spiritually.
And so you take the transgender business, that's a total rejection of trust in God and the idea that God knows what he's doing when he creates somebody, male and female.
And that's the first thing the Bible tells us about God.
That he created the heavens and the earth and Christians say.
And GBTI, and that's why they're wrong.
That male and female who we are and being tolerant for who we are.
That's what they claim to be.
Well, that's why we calculated a very clear-cut principle.
We have heresies in Christianity, just like you do in Islam.
No, no, but I want to understand what is the principle that I was just telling you.
You just said, have human dignity.
You're talking over me, but I'm trying to explain it to you.
Because you're not answering the question.
No, I actually am answering the question, but you keep interrupting me and making it impossible for me to make the principle.
If you had the basic courtesy to be quiet for a second, then I will return it to you when you respond.
Sure, go ahead.
But the idea that when it says male and female, he created them, that's not just an incidental point, but that is fundamental to the human identity and to the nature of the person that has that dignity as being made in the image of God.
And consequently, to say, oh no, God made a big mistake and I'm really a woman, that is a fundamental rejection of any kind of Christian principle.
That's not what the point is.
I want to transition off this topic to the next topic.
By the way, you know how the Constitution, we've had 27 amendments in the last however many years we've been around, right?
Based on what he just said, my interpretation, what he said is the religion of Christianity has made many amendments over the years.
Okay?
Somebody could interpret as the New Testament as a form of an amendment.
You can push back.
I'm just giving the audience trying to see what the average audience may be thinking about.
They may say, no, the Quran is the Quran, is the Quran.
We follow what was taught back in the days and we're sticking to it and there's no amendments.
What's your rebuttal to that?
Can I comment on that?
Yes.
You understand what I'm saying?
I understand the question.
First of all, they are talking about amendments.
They have something in Islam called abrogation.
It's like an amendment.
God says something and then he changes it.
For example, he asked the question: was it moral to kill the apostate?
I can ask him the same question.
How about Zawaj al-Muta?
Like you marry for like it was practiced in Iran a lot.
It's not inherently immoral.
It's not inherently immoral.
Why?
We can answer it.
Why it was stopped?
Why Muhammad stopped it?
It wasn't immoral.
I'm just giving you an example.
Let me ask the question.
No, no, I'll let you answer.
I'll let you answer.
In Christianity, Jesus came, he stopped so many things in the Old Testament.
That's our principle.
He stopped, for example, sacrifices.
We don't sacrifice animals.
He stopped the adulterers to be stoned.
He stopped so many things, like tooth for tooth.
He stopped that.
So Jesus stopped so many things in the Old Testament.
You don't accept that.
That's your choice.
For example, why his disciples never killed an apostate?
Why his disciples never have political power.
As soon as Christians gained political power in the Roman Empire, they started doing these things.
You didn't have the jurisdiction to do so.
They didn't kill the minority.
They weren't in power.
As soon as Christians gained power within the Roman Empire, they applied the Old Testament laws, the New Testament codified in the canon law.
Are you familiar with the canon law?
I want to talk about that.
Let me explain the canon law.
Let me explain that.
Brother Richard, I can get close to the mic so the audience can hear.
Jesus never waged a war.
He never ordered one.
There were other Jews who did kill Romans and who did kill people, Zilot, the people called Ghayorun.
So Jesus never ordered that.
His disciples got killed, not waged war.
They got killed.
They never killed a person.
Slavery, Paul, the Apostle Paul, he said, in Jesus, there is no slave or free.
And that's why the abolitionists started in the West.
I have a question for you.
You are benefiting from human rights and freedom of religion in the U.S.
And you are trying to get us back to Sharia.
For example, you converted from Christianity to Islam.
And you want to bring a law that kills the apostate.
Do you want to be killed for converting from Christianity to Islam?
Do you want that?
Do you believe it's correct?
Do you want it?
Do you believe it's correct?
So he said, that's the answer to the principle.
The principle is the golden rule.
Not do to people what you don't want them to do to you.
You talked for a long time.
Can I respond please?
Okay, both of you keep running from the Old Testament and the argument that i've given Jesus stopped it.
We are not running Jesus stop, we let you.
We let you speak for a while sir, please let me talk, okay.
Is Jesus god?
Well yes, the answer is yes.
You do believe that.
Did God reveal at least parts of the Old Testament?
Well, of course you believe that.
Now Robert wanted to make a distinction.
He brought up an example about Paul trying to remember how many people he baptized is baptized.
But in the Old Testament, when it says that God is speaking and that god commanded X, was that just somebody making it up or misremembering?
No, the Bible says it's god.
So listen to this passage.
1 Samuel 15.
1 to 3.
And Samuel said to Saul, the lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel not oh, i'm just talking out of you know, my backside.
Now therefore, listen to the words of the lord.
Who are they?
They're the words of the lord.
They're not the words of Samuel or your neighbor John or whoever else.
Thus says the Lord Of Hosts, I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came out of Egypt.
Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have.
Do not spare them, but kill both, man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.
So do not tell me sir, that god Jesus did not order the killing of innocent people.
He not only did he do that, he ordered the killing of babies, none of which you will ever find anywhere in the Quran or Sunnah.
So if you have a problem, let me finish, sir.
You don't have any problem.
Let me let me finish sir, if you have a problem with god ordering death for apostasy and all these other things that you're bringing up.
Robert, when you bring up the issue of Paul well, he's trying to remember how many people he baptized.
Is that analogous to this text where a prophet Samuel, is explicitly saying that these are the words of the lord?
Was Samuel lying?
Did God actually say this?
And, if so, is killing babies inherently immoral when at war?
Yeah, killing babies is bad, Jake.
Yes, is it inherently immoral?
Yeah, so why did your god order?
Why did your god Jesus promise?
Why did your god command the killing of infants.
If you'll, let me answer, the problem that you have once again is that you're reading the Bible as if it were the Quran and see these things actually trouble Jews and Christians.
There's no no uh, uh reason to cover up that fact that these passages have caused difficulty.
Why is it difficult for Jews and Christians?
Throughout history?
And some people would say actually, these things never happened at all, that they were uh, They were fables designed to teach that.
They were fables designed to teach that you are to be completely pure and reject sin, and that all that business about killing this one and that one is about rejecting various sins.
Now, the whole point of what I'm saying here, if you would stop interrupting for a minute, I did not interrupt you.
The whole point of what I'm saying here is that these passages precisely in the fact that they have caused trouble for Jews and Christians and have led to differing interpretations of them, demonstrate that the Jews and Christians both have an evolving understanding that comes from later revelations and that comes from their own interpretation of the revelations that they received,
such that they can say unequivocally that, yes, killing innocent people is wrong.
Whereas you have Muhammad and they ask him, you know, you're throwing rocks, you're catapulting stones into the infidels' city on your mic.
They got women and children in there and he says, oh, they're among them.
In other words, you know, it doesn't really matter if you kill women and children because they're all infidels.
And you don't have any kind of critical stepping back and saying maybe that is not to be.
That's the one I'm talking about.
Can you read this to him?
Yeah, there's no permissibility.
Nowhere in Sunnah, just read it, please.
This is Sahih Muslim, which is one of the hadiths.
Permission is killing women and children in night raids.
Can you start from the beginning?
Start from the beginning.
Go for it.
Will you stop interrupting me?
I did not interrupt you.
Permissibility of killing women and children in night raids, so long as it is not done deliberately.
It is reported on the authority of Saab ibn Jathama that the Prophet of Allah, when asked about the women and children of the polytheists being killed during the night raid, said they are from them.
And this is Sahih Muslim 1745a.
And that once I make the point, yeah, that that is giving permission.
And that actually was invoked by Zarqawi, the al-Qaeda leader in Iraq, when he was explaining why women and children were killed by the jihad bombings, and he was actually justifying it among Muslims.
And he invoked that passage.
Okay, so the difference is if you actually read the next hadith afterwards, it clarifies it, sir.
And yes, if you're talking about bombardment or collateral damage in which an infant or child or a woman may be harmed inadvertently and unintentionally, then yes, that can happen.
It's not a good thing that we enjoy in war, but if it happens, so be it.
The difference is that in this text, it's specifically commanding from God.
And what you said before, well, some Christians say, well, it's not actually historical.
Maybe it didn't happen.
Well, I don't care about other Christians with all due respect for this conversation.
We're talking to the two of you and the two Muslims, and we are representing our positions.
So we want to know from you, do you believe that 1 Samuel 15, 1 to 3 was revealed by God and that God himself ordered directly, intentionally, for the killing of babies and infants.
Let me answer that.
Let me answer that.
You are judging a war that happened 3,000 years ago.
Just wait.
You are judging a war that happened 3,000 years ago by the standards of today.
The difference between the Old Testament and Islam, we believe those applied for those circumstances and stayed there.
These should not be applied today.
Islam jihad should be applied in the time of Muhammad, today, and forever.
So killing the kids of polytheists, Muhammad answered, they are from them.
We are just politists like them.
So it's okay to kill them.
And let me tell you about killing kids.
How you define a kid?
In the raid of Beni Khuraidah, Beni Khuraidah, a Jewish tribe, Muhammad came and he said, check the hair of puberty for every kid.
If you find one hair, you can kill him because he's considered an adolescent.
So they killed 600 people on that day.
You want to tell me that doesn't exist in Islam?
I know it exists in Islam.
And I know if you got authority today, you will do it.
Here's what I want to do.
I want to have Daniel give a response and then I'm going to go to the next topic.
Go for it, Daniel.
Okay, so Banu Khuraida, that was a tribe that betrayed the Muslims in war.
So that was an act of treason.
Every legal system in history, every religion, when you do an act of treason in war, what's the punishment for that?
Capital punishment.
And that was what was applied.
The punishment fit the crime.
The point that Jake made is that the Prophet, peace be upon him, explicitly forbade the intentional killing of women and children in the hadith that you didn't mention.
So this is dishonest.
You read one hadith from the book of jihad in Sahih Muslim, but you don't read the other hadith.
So that is dishonest on your part, sir.
And then let's bring it back to the overall picture, because for your viewers, many of them might not be Muslim or Christian.
They think like, both of you guys are crazy.
Both of you, your religion sound ridiculous.
So I want to defend not only traditional Islam, but also traditional Christianity.
I want to defend, I think that's what building bridges is really about.
Defending traditional religion, where every religion has conquest, it has violence, it has rules of war.
And guess what?
We live in a world of real politik.
Every nation is engaging in war of conquest, expanding its influence and using violence as a means.
The U.S. is the biggest perpetrator of that.
Russia now is doing that in Ukraine, endorsed by the Orthodox Church, by the way.
You have China, who is also expanding its influence.
So every society, every culture, every traditional religion says, yes, use means and violence, if necessary, to expand your influence and to conquer and to conquest and to impose, impose what?
Your values.
That is something universal, as Muslims, we're proud of that.
Sorry, as Muslims, we're proud of that.
We're proud of our religion and we're not going to reform it and modify it.
It's only modern Christians, actually, and these other religions that are reforming their traditional beliefs in deference to what?
In deference to this hegemony that I'm talking about, the liberal secular powers and saying, no, no, no, our religion is just about peace.
Our religion is just about like no violence, no nothing.
Okay, you have to throw all your traditional texts under the bus.
Muslims are not willing to do that.
And that argument has been made clearly, and the audience has to decide which to them seems more of a faith, which leads me to the next question, a faith where you would want to raise your family in a country based on those values.
So in America, when you look at the statistics, you'll see 20,000 Christians have converted to Muslim, right?
Of which 75% are women.
The number we'll see three quarters are women and a quarter are men.
Okay.
The question I would have is, I lived in Iran for 10 years.
I don't know if you guys have lived in a Muslim nation before.
Did you, you lived, obviously you lived in Morocco.
Have you lived in a Muslim you're here?
So I lived in Iran 10 years as a Christian family and we would go to church and I went to Christian school and then we escaped and went to Germany, lived at a refugee camp with a lot of different sects from different parts of the world who were escaping.
They were either escaping communism or they were escaping not feeling safe, persecution for their religion, what they believed in.
They didn't have the freedom they left.
Why is it?
This is a question that's been brought up when I'm crowdsourcing what questions you want us to ask the guests that are here today.
If it's purely statistical, why are more Muslims moving to Christian nations and not Christian nations moving to Muslim nations?
Why do you think that is?
It's economics, pure economics.
If you look at Christians that move to Saudi and the Gulf, there's a huge influx of Christians from the Philippines, from Africa, from Eastern Europe that flock to the Gulf countries, Muslim countries.
Why?
Because of GDP, because of the economy.
The influx of people of all religions and cultures to the U.S., to Australia, to Europe, it's purely because of economic opportunity, not because of there is some kind of better way of life.
The way of life in the U.S., and I can talk to you because you lived 10 years in Iran, the culture of traditional societies, especially Muslim societies, is much more conducive to family.
It's more of a family community-based life as opposed to an individualistic, you know, rat race, everyone is out for himself type of lifestyle that you live in the West.
And that's because of the hegemony that we're talking about, because of liberal secularism, because of this pursuit of happiness at the expense of all else.
When you have a religion that values family, marriage, look at the divorce rates.
Look at how, you know, I have five sons of my own.
I'm very worried about will they even be able to find a wife who will be faithful to them and who will want to have children, my grandchildren who will be faithful.
Look at the divorce rates.
Look at the infidelity rates.
Look at all of the social problems that are infecting Western societies.
Why is that?
I'd argue it's on the basis of leaving traditional Christianity, leaving traditional Islam, reforming these religions.
That's the problem.
Look at someone like Reza Aslan.
You interviewed him.
I had him on, yeah.
And you had a brilliant comment.
You said that, Reza, when you're talking, I feel like you're an atheist.
You're arguing, I don't think that you're actually a Muslim.
Like, you're not talking like you're a Muslim.
You're talking like this progressive, liberal, atheist type person.
And that's what's happening to everyone because of these political forces.
And we have to resist that.
We have to resist those kinds of influences in order to preserve marriage, preserve family, preserve community.
That exists in the Muslim world, but it's being eroded.
So why are you still here?
Why are you in America?
Why don't you go to a Muslim nation?
I would like to do that.
But the thing is that the West has declared war on every traditional society.
If you don't implement Western-style liberal human rights, quote unquote, like you don't legalize homosexuality, you don't legalize transgender, you don't legalize feminism, all these things that are destroying marriage and family, we're going to bomb you.
We're going to sanction you.
We're going to starve your people.
It's not safe for Muslims to be in Muslim countries.
It's not safe for traditional Christians.
Traditional Christians quoting the Bible within Europe are being put in prison for quoting the Bible.
They'll literally quote a verse from Leviticus or they'll talk about Sodom and Gomorrah.
They're put in prison.
This is a war on all traditional religions.
And there's not a safe place for a traditional religious person in the world today because of this dominant global power.
So your argument is, is economy, capitalism, you know, a capitalistic society?
So then the question would be, why don't Muslim regions accept the principles of a capitalistic free society to be able to attract other Christians?
You know, because when you hear some stories, it's the, but I got that.
Brother Rashid, do you have a response to him?
On this question, specifically the question I'm asking, why do Christian nations attract Muslims, but Muslim nations not attract Christians?
He said the economy is the first reason.
But other reasons exist too.
I have seen so many Saudi girls leaving Saudi Arabia, going to Canada and the US and the UK, asking for asylum because they don't have the same rights and they are forced to stay as a second class status.
Woman is not treated well in Muslim countries.
I have seen people who are leaving Morocco and other places because they don't have freedom of speech.
And if you say anything against Islam in Egypt or Morocco or for me, for example, why I left Morocco, I love Morocco.
I would love to live among my family, but I left not because of the economy.
I was doing well, but because I don't have freedom of religion.
And there are many countries like that.
If you open the borders in Europe and the US, you will have almost probably, I can't guess, but like probably 90% of Muslims will go to the West, not just because of money.
It's because of other reasons.
They are oppressed there.
And our brothers, they have their solution to what we'll live is not what I am here.
Of course, we have a problem in the West, but the solution they are given is worse than what we have today.
For example, LGBTQ, whatever, they will kill them if we bring, let's say, let them govern with Islam today.
They will throw them from a higher building.
That's their punishment.
I'm not with that.
I'm not either this, the two extremes, either this or that.
Islam is not going to give a solution.
Why we have human rights in the West?
Why everything we are enjoying today, it came from the West.
For example, women rights came from the West.
Abolishing slavery came from the West.
Freedom of speech, freedom of religion came from the West.
You name it.
Just give me anything.
Democracies came from the West.
So they want us to live under an authoritarian system and you cannot even question it.
And if you say anything against it, you will be condemned to death.
For example, if I say Islam is not the right way to God, I cannot say that in a Muslim country.
I will be punished for that.
So we are enjoying freedom of speech, freedom of religion, democracy.
We can say our opinion.
We can have a podcast like that without a problem.
Guess what?
In Morocco, when I became a Christian, we met as Christians in closed doors.
We couldn't sing.
We couldn't baptize people.
We couldn't name our kids Christian names.
You cannot name him Luke or Mark or anything.
You have to name him Muhammad and Omar and Abu Bakr.
You can't name them Christian names.
This is not true.
It's true.
I lived it.
It's not true.
Islamic law, okay, do you know Ahyam Ahlul Zimma?
Do you know the principles of...
I'm not Ahlul Zimma.
I'm an apostate.
Yeah, you don't talk about other Christians.
Christians can name their children.
You live in a Muslim country.
Okay, let me finish.
Is your name Patrick or was that against the law?
Let me finish.
I am a convert from Islam to Christianity.
And I had hundreds like me, girls and boys.
We were gathering.
We were afraid of police.
And we got arrested many times.
We got interrogated.
Let me get this straight.
So I want to understand what both of you are saying.
So for us, I was born in a Muslim country.
My name is Patrick.
My sister's name is Paulette.
You're saying if a Muslim converts to Christian, you can't just name your kids anything.
You have to name them those specific names.
Yes.
And you're okay with that.
You think that's normal?
I said something even more than that.
I said that the punishment is death penalty.
So forget it.
That's what we talked about.
At the beginning, For you, it's not even your level for that is for somebody to go.
But why is that?
But that's not the treatment of all Christians.
I totally get that.
But why do you believe that?
Why do you believe if a Muslim becomes a Christian is the death penalty?
Well, this is what I want to explain: is that, first of all, this is found in every religion, it's found in every culture.
The idea that you have to have punishments for defection, meaning that if you abandon the group, you are threatening the group.
And that's why every business, every university, every society has community guidelines, for example.
If you violate the community guidelines, it's not called blasphemy, it's called a violation of community guidelines.
You're expelled from that community.
You face consequences.
But it goes beyond that because you have restrictions on your speech, right?
I can't, we can't look at this YouTube channel.
I can't say certain things on this live stream.
Otherwise, the video will be banned.
Your channel will get in trouble.
And then you can be prosecuted.
You can face all kinds of consequences.
Again, go back to your Glenn Greenwald interview, your interview with Whitney Webb.
Look at the power structures that restrict speech.
They restrict thought.
Why?
In order to preserve the power structure.
Every religion has this.
Traditional Christianity.
That's why heretics were punished.
That's why apostates were punished.
And let me ask you to follow up on that.
So when you say to me, you know, I've interviewed almost any of the major living mobsters.
I've had them on the podcast before.
I don't know if that's your stuff that you would watch, but I've interviewed a lot of them.
Sammy DeBull, Michael Francis, a lot of these guys.
Okay.
So I can see you with your last name.
Yeah.
So when I interview these guys, one of the things that they have, and Sammy is a very much of a, he says, look, I'm a mafioso.
I'm a true mafioso is what I am till today.
He's in his late 70s.
He still says that, right?
If you step away from the life, I get to you could get killed if you step away from the life, right?
Okay.
You chose this life.
You celebrated when you become a made man.
Now you want to leave.
You got the benefits of being a made man.
Now you want to leave.
We're going to take your life if based on the principles that they followed.
But that's the mafia.
For somebody that may say, well, then Islam is, you know, is Islam following some of the mafia philosophies that if you choose to leave, you deserve to get to lose your life?
Don't you think that's a bit extreme?
I would say the problem with the mafia is criminal activity.
It's not with this principle.
This is a good principle.
That's why they're able to be so organized.
That's why they're able to be so successful.
That's the argument.
And you have nations that are run in the same way.
You have to preserve the nation by punishing defection because it threatens the unity of the group.
It threatens the way of life.
It's tough though, man.
But that's the law.
I totally understand it.
All I'm saying is that's that's tough because, okay, so let me get to more the business side.
The next side.
Let me just add a little bit to it.
Go for it.
I will be killed.
My kids will be taken and my wife will be taken.
Just to add to the list in an Islamic system.
Let me continue with this.
Let me continue with this a little bit because this is getting interesting to me.
So if in insurance, there's two ways to build or real estate.
There's two ways guys build their real estate and their insurance companies.
Let me explain this and you'll see where I'm going with this question.
One is there's guys that steal from other people, okay?
And they'll say, oh, you train those guys, I'll take your agents.
You train those guys, I'll take your agents.
You're getting 60%, I'll give you 80% if you come to my company.
So their entire business model is to take from others, right?
And then they're always capped because somebody else is not going to come and say, he gave you 80, I'll give you 100.
And so now they go to a different guy.
And then the other guy will say, he gave you 100, I'll give you 110.
Then they'll realize there's only 130.
So how much more is left to do?
I'll give you 115.
If you come to me five more, okay, I'll come to you.
And then eventually you're stuck.
You're not going to go anywhere, right?
Okay, so they're not, these agencies are not baptism agencies.
They're converting agencies.
I'll convert you to me by me giving you a better life or better heaven or better, you know, dream that I'm selling to you, right?
For me, the way I see it is on, and then the other side is guys that recruit people from other industries and they make them realtors.
So I'm working at Sears.
You should consider getting a real estate license.
I convert you.
You're a nurse.
You should think about being a realtor.
I become a realtor.
So you understand the two examples I'm giving.
I'm recruiting other realtors.
I'm converting somebody into being a realtor.
Hence, religion, Muslim.
I'm targeting Christians to convert them.
No, I'm converting people that are, you know, becoming Muslims or just we're having more kids and that's how we're going to grow a religion.
Okay.
So the criticism and fear that a lot of Christians will say, non-Muslims will say, is, if we go the way we do right now, one day Muslims are going to run the world.
Do you not fear that?
And you'll hear that.
Okay.
And by the way, it's a fair argument because right now the number is, give or take, the Muslim population worldwide, I think, is around 1.7 billion.
And it's expected by 2060 to grow by 73, 74% to 3.1 billion.
Today, they're 24.1% of the world population.
By 2060, you'll be 31.1%.
These are some real numbers that they're increasing.
And Christians will say, well, are you not worried about that?
Are you not worried about that?
Are you not worried about that?
Okay.
So then my argument becomes, because I'm a data guy, Muslim women have 2.9 kids per woman.
Christians are around 2.5, 2.6.
Non-Muslims are 2.2.
And you know the replacement game, you need to have 2.1.
So 2.1 is a replacement game.
2.2 is non-Muslims.
Christians are 2.6.
And then you have Muslims eating away 2.9.
By the way, in the 90s, you were at 4.3, 4.5.
In 1990, 1995, 30 years ago, you were at 4.3.
So where am I going with this?
So where I'm going with this is if this goes the way it does and they do what they do, it is very natural that the Senate, that Congress, that House, that governors are going to be ran by Muslims.
Right now, you have three that are there.
You mentioned the names earlier.
There used to be one in the past.
That's four.
But we had 82 in the midterm election who are Muslims that got elected to city, state, different kinds of jobs that they had record-breaking ever, right?
So if I don't look at it from the faith standpoint, if I don't look at it from the religion standpoint, if I don't look at it from the argument of who's right, who's wrong, Muhammad, Jesus, if I don't look at it from there, I would simply say their strategy of growing is kicking Christians' tail.
So then Christians can either sit there and complain about it or they can do something about it.
But Christians don't want to have that many kids.
Christians are not having four, five, six kids.
He has five, you said you have five sons?
Five sons?
Okay, he's got five sons.
I don't know how many of you have five sons that they say, well, I got two and two girls.
Five sons is going to be the rest of us, right?
If he's going to keep having these kids.
So what is your solution as a Christian?
And I'm purely talking business right now.
The business of religion is what I'm talking right now.
According to the business of religion, they're going to win.
And there's nothing Christians can do about it by the business.
You can sit and argue the faith all you want.
They're getting their people and their kids baptized because their job isn't recruiting Christians to become Muslims.
They've only converted 20,000.
That's not a lot.
It's not a big number.
But they're getting more kids and they're raising their kids with the loyalty to the parents and they're following that faith and they're growing bigger and we're not doing that.
What are your thoughts to that?
Well, if you're asking me what the solution is, obviously Christians have to recover a sense of their faith and a sense of what's at stake.
Because what you're talking about will happen if this continues is that the United States will look like Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Iran.
Those were not always the heart of the Islamic world.
Those were conquered and Islamized.
And the Christians were, like Rashid was saying, were put, made second class, made subject to all kinds of humiliating and discriminatory regulations, and had to pay a special tax that's specified in the Quran, chapter 9, verse 29.
And they ultimately, most of them in those areas, and in North Africa, other areas like that, they, many of them thought, you know, why am I suffering this and having to live in this way?
All I have to do is convert to Islam and I can live a decent life.
And most of them did.
And so you have areas that were 99% Christian and now they're 99% Muslim.
And so people don't realize.
They think they look at Egypt and they say, well, that's the Islamic world.
They don't realize that these things are always in flux and that exactly what happened there is beginning to happen in the West.
And so I think that if Christians were to come to realize what's at stake, which would be extraordinarily difficult given the amount of propaganda and falsehood that spread about these issues in the mainstream, then they might begin to realize that they need to take the steps.
What's the solution, though?
What's the next steps?
What is the solution from your standpoint?
They have to have larger families, certainly, and have to meet the DAWA, the proselytizing initiatives, and be able to answer all the objections to show the inhumane aspects of Islam.
But Christians are not that united.
These guys are united.
Exactly.
Christians are competing against each other.
Muslims are more united.
Oh, no.
No, I disagree to that.
We have Shia, we have Sunni.
They are fighting each other.
They are killing each other.
Fair enough, yes.
And so they are not really united.
And if you go to Salafis, they will make the Sufis as mushriks.
But would you agree that Sunnis and Shias are united at least in the values?
No, no.
Not necessarily because you know the cousin or, you know, that's the history part where who got the past son?
I'm talking purely values and philosophies.
You know what?
Muslims will claim we are 1.7.
And when you ask them details, they will be, Ahmadis are not Muslims, Shia are not Muslims, and you will find just the guy in his mosque at the end instead of 1.7.
I lived that.
When you really scrutinize them, you will find just the guy in his mosque.
They are the ones.
Actually, Muhammad said his people will divide to 73 groups.
And one of them only go to heaven.
So 72 of them, they're just like kufar.
They are not really Muslims.
So let's go back to that.
Replacement rate, for example, in some countries like Iran is below 2.1.
In Turkey, it's below 2.1.
In others, they are below that.
So there is a huge drop.
For example, in Morocco, I think it was like 6.9, and now it's like 2.8 or 2.7.
So next generation will be below replacement rate.
So they will suffer also from from you believe that.
You believe their numbers is going to go below the Christian replacement rate?
I will believe they will drop because we have so many challenges, economy, so many other things.
And another thing, they don't count how many people are leaving Islam.
We don't have statistics.
I have statistics, for example, people who write to me, according just to my show, from Morocco, from Algeria, from Iran, for example, so many people are leaving to atheism, to Christianity, to other worldviews.
In Egypt, in Saudi Arabia, see, they don't count that.
I still count it as a Muslim in the 1.7.
And many people like me.
So if they give freedom and we do real surveys, we will have the number less.
Another thing, what Islam is left?
The West forced Muslims to abolish slavery, to not practice the real Islam, like imputing hands and feet and crucifying.
They are now forcing them to have one wife.
So Islam, the version of Islam in the Muslim world is not really what they are preaching.
So what Muslims do we have?
According to their standards, probably most of them are Kafir.
And not only that, it's because of the death penalty for apostasy that this is unreported, but also there was a survey, and people did answer the anonymous survey recently in Iran.
Only 40% of the population identified as Muslim.
Now, that's extraordinary, and it shows how inhumane Sharia Islamic law is.
I don't remember who read it, but it's easy to find.
We can look it up.
Can you look it up?
From 1979 to now, we've had Islamic law in Iran, and now only 60% of Iranians have rejected Islam.
That's because they've lived it since 1979, and they realize how much they don't like it.
Yeah, I just want to comment because they're talking a lot about the supposed disunity amongst Muslims as if you don't have that in Christianity, right?
Oh, yeah, you do.
You do, right?
So, Rashid, I know that Robert here is Eastern Orthodox.
He used to be Catholic.
What denomination or sect of Christianity do you belong to?
Because we are converts in Morocco, we don't follow anything.
We just follow.
I'm saying, like, do you go to a specific church?
I meant one too many.
Orthodox, Protestant, I don't care.
Okay, so anyway, my point is: you have the three main sects in Christianity: the Protestants, the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox.
Historically, they fought with each other over very, you know, what from the outside, people would think, well, why are they fighting over this?
I mean, today, the Orthodox and Catholics are fighting over doctrines like the Filioque, whether or not the Holy Spirit proceeds forth from the Father and the Son or the Father alone eternally.
And they're completely divided on this and, you know, call each other heretics and all kinds of stuff.
So to act as if, right, there's this division amongst Sunnis and Shia, when, as I think Patrick rightly pointed out, we have much more in common in terms of our actual values.
We differ in terms of certain historical doctrines, but that's another story.
On the other hand, you have so many different sects within Christianity, so many different denominations.
All of them disagree and consider each other to be heretics.
So for you to make that accusation and critique of Islam, I just don't think is correct.
It opens up the current.
But I look at the history of the Catholics versus Protestants in Europe.
Over five people killed in the wake of the Protestant Reformation.
So, I mean, that applies to Christianity more than Islam.
But going back to Patrick's point, is that you want to grow your numbers and grow the Christian population.
I want to help Christians grow because I think a world that has more Christians is better than a world that has more atheists.
But how can you have more Christians when you don't really believe in the Bible?
We have the seeds of the destruction of Christianity right in this podcast because when you look at the way that Robert and Rashid describe the Bible, they describe it as a book of fables and it can continue to evolve.
I didn't say that.
This is going to cause apostasy.
This is going to cause a decrease in faith.
Like, why should I take Christianity seriously when it just evolves and it changes over time?
I can't connect my practices and my beliefs as a Christian today with the historical Jesus.
So why am I going to maintain myself as a Christian?
And then also the whole theology, which we haven't discussed at all today, like monotheism is 80 to 90% of the world believes in monotheism, in one God.
And monotheism is a central, crucial, the most important part of Islam, the belief in one God without partners.
He is not like anything.
This is a very powerful belief that 80 to 90% of human beings profess in this day and age.
And Islam represents that in its theology and emphasizes that in its theology.
But if you have a Trinity or you have a theology that is not really clear, is Jesus God?
Is there a Godhead?
Is there this other system?
Do we go by the Catholics or do we go by the Orthodox?
Do we go by the Protestants?
You don't have a consistent theology.
Sunnis and Shias, they all agree on monotheism.
God is one.
He is not like anything.
They agree on the Quran.
Yeah, there can be some theological differences and nuances between different schools, but there's not the same kind of disparity or variance between Christian sects and this idea of the Trinity, which frankly no one can understand.
Like, what does it mean to be three in one?
Let me respond to that.
Let me respond to that.
My brother is mentioning divisions between Catholics and Protestants.
If I go back, there are divisions among the follower, the disciples of Muhammad, the Sahaba themselves, they killed each other.
You know that the wife of Muhammad went and killed the followers of Ali in Mauka at al-Jamal.
Thousands died among the first disciples.
This didn't happen between Peter and John, by the way.
So if you go to Islam from the beginning, they fought each other and they had divisions from the beginning.
You know that, for example, the fight over the Quran was created or eternal.
They fought over that.
And actually, one time they had the whole caliphate going one way.
The other time, the prison, they killed people who believed that.
So you're trying just to give a fake picture.
There are divisions.
There are killings among Muslims all through history from the beginning, from the start, which didn't happen within Christianity, by the way.
Peter and James.
Oh, they didn't kill each other.
They didn't kill each other.
Because they didn't have political affairs.
Were they fighting each other?
Who killed Ottoman, for example?
Who killed Peter and James?
Were they at war?
Were they fighting?
They were not fighting.
The fight is to take an army against another one.
Aisha took an army and killed people.
You don't have an army of political power.
You lost your argument.
You are trying to make a false analogy here.
You lost your argument.
This is not an analogy.
You're not going to win over any Christians by constructing these straw man arguments that completely misrepresented.
But if I may, and I want to hear your thoughts, just a quick rebuttal here.
My point earlier is I don't think they're trying to convert.
Because I think hear me out.
Oh, sure, they are.
I'm sure they are.
I'm sure they are, but I don't think that's what they rely on.
The earlier point I made, their strategy on outgrowing Christians is to internally raise kids from the beginning rather than converting.
Oh, yeah.
That's the way they're going to be able to do what they want to do.
So if you want to respond, go right ahead.
Well, they are obviously converting Christians because Jake is here.
But the fact is Islam is not really that attractive a message.
And so there aren't many people who are converts.
Most of the people, like you're saying, the reason why it's growing is because of polygamy and because the women have many, many more children than women in the West do.
But in any case, the points that I was making are completely misrepresenting and running with your misunderstanding and claiming I said things I never said.
The point that I was making was that the Old Testament and the New Testament, as I said before, are records of an evolving understanding among the people of God.
And that because of that evolving understanding, they came to realize that these things had no applicability for all people for all time.
The idea that the Old Testament is not applicable for Christians is in the New Testament itself.
That's actually a large preoccupation of the New Testament that they are free, the Christians are free from the law.
And so you bring up these Old Testament examples.
The big difficulty you have is that nobody in the Christian world is thinking this is marching orders for today.
Whereas people read the Quran, unfortunately, they do think that when it says kill them wherever you find them, when you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks, and so on and so on.
They do believe that these things are marching orders for today because the Quran does not have these different stages of development.
But this doesn't mean in Christianity that just anything goes.
In Catholicism and Orthodoxy, you have the apostolic succession and the authority of the bishops who can authoritatively interpret the scriptures and set the doctrines.
And those doctrines have been consistent from the beginning.
It's not as if it's all free-for-all.
Patrick, Patrick, excuse me, you're interrupting once again.
And I never interrupted you.
No, I'm asking a permission.
Just a second.
Okay.
And in Protestantism, you also have the fidelity, at least ostensibly, a fidelity to the scriptures, so that you can't just say anything goes and we're going to become LGBTQ now legitimately.
Now, there are people who are doing this, and they are mostly in the Protestant purview because they don't have this authority that establishes various understandings of whether homosexuality is sinful or not, and so on.
And so they can reinterpret these things, and that is a big problem.
Nobody is interested in hiding any problems.
But when you set up these straw man arguments and say, oh, Spencer said the Bible's fables and anything goes, you're just lying.
I never heard that.
Oh, you did.
I have a comment about statistics.
Pew Research Center says Islam gains about as many converts as it loses in the U.S.
So zero at the end.
So even the 20,000, you can just cancel them.
Another thing, Elias Bayounis, he said that 75% of new Muslim converts they leave Islam after that.
So not many.
75% is a huge number.
They go back because they find, usually they are fascinated with Middle Eastern, non-white religion.
And yeah, it's fascinating.
Our brother is wearing even the Moroccan jalaba, he likes to say, yeah, oh, it's our, it's not Muslim, by the way, it's Berber.
So you just think because they're fascinated with these things and they think that's Islam, when they start digging in, oh, I didn't agree to killing apostates.
I didn't know that Muhammad ordered that.
Well, everybody specifically cited that Muslims stand for their principles.
That's why he converted, right?
Andrew Tate.
I'm glad he converted to Islam.
So take him.
I want to say something about Muslims converting to Islam.
Then you find out little by little things that you don't agree at the beginning.
Every product comes with a warranty, except Islam doesn't come with a warranty.
If you don't like it, your head is going to go.
So that's why it's not an appealing religion.
And people are rejecting it after they find these little details.
I want to give them an opportunity to respond and then we can go to the next issue.
Yeah, I'd like to respond because Robert brought up apostolic succession and claims that these doctrines have been held, you know, since the beginning of Jesus.
Jesus proclaimed his message to the apostles and they passed it on to early church fathers and then all the way down the line.
And it's been this consistent message throughout.
But on very core doctrines, which Daniel and I would actually like to spend more time on on what he called the 95%, which is actually monotheism, unfortunately, we believe that Christians, Trinitarian Christians, are representing a veiled form of polytheism.
And you claim that this was the consistent message over time.
Well, let's see what Justin Martyr, your own saint, says.
He's in the beginning of the second century.
He was born in the year 100.
In his famous dialogue with Trifo, chapter 56, he says this.
Let's see if his theology is the same as yours, Robert.
I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the scriptures of the truth of what I say, that there is and that there is said to be another God and Lord, subject to the maker of all things, who is also called an angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the maker of all things above whom there is no other God wishes to announce them.
So Justin Martyr says that Jesus is a second God, is another God, separate and distinct, and he is a lesser divinity.
Now, John Baer, who I'm sure you would know is a famous Eastern Orthodox authority today, he comments on this passage and he says this.
As it is not God himself who thus appeared and spoke with man, the word of God who did all of these things for Justin, quote, another God and Lord besides the Maker of all, who was also called his angel, as he brings messages from the maker of all, above whom there is no other God.
Then he says about this passage, the divinity of Jesus Christ, another God, is no longer that of the Father himself, but subordinate to it, a lesser divinity.
Now, that's just one example, Justin Martyr, who you would consider a saint.
You may even pray to, as the Eastern Orthodox pray to dead saints.
But the reality is that your theology, according to you, on the Trinity, is actually more correct than the person that you're praying to.
And I can go through a whole more list of on-key doctrines, like the doctrine of the incarnation, the atonement, and the Trinity itself, that the early church authorities like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and on and on up until the fourth century never preached the doctrine of the Trinity, sir.
So when you make the claim that your message has been consistent without, well, we see in the very beginnings on the fundamental point of who God is, you did not have the same doctrine.
It took to get to the fourth century.
And that's why Christianity, because at its very beginning, was very comfortable with development.
Oh, who is God?
Is a man God?
Is he God and man at the same time?
So if you can have those sorts of developments, of course you can have developments about how laws are applied and whether or not we should be celebrating LGBTQ and all of that.
That's your history, sir.
Not at all.
Actually, no.
The difference is that when it comes to LGBTQ, it's very clear that homosexuality is immoral and that this is the consistent teaching of all the Christian groups up until quite recently.
And so the ones that have changed that have departed from the faith.
And you cannot have a development that contradicts what went before.
The developments happen harmoniously.
At the beginning of the church, there was a great deal of difficulty in understanding exactly how it was that God had become man.
And so you have people trying to formulate it.
And Justin Martyr tries to formulate it, and he does so erroneously.
You have some assumption, probably coming from Islam, that the saints are infallible.
And actually, that's not the case.
And so you want to quote me, fathers of the church from before Nicaea, all you want.
The fact is that the Trinity was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325, and there isn't anything that was taught by the authorities in the church.
Justin Martyr was a great saint, but he was not one who was formulating the doctrine and charged with the responsibility to give us what the teaching of the Christian faith is.
The Ecumenical Council had that authority, and they formulated it in this way.
Now, does this mean that Justin Martyr is a heretic?
No, because he comes before that.
No, yeah, he was wrong.
Yeah, absolutely.
But when he said he's another God, he was wrong.
There's only one God.
We are actually monotheists.
I know that Islam teaches that everybody else is a polytheist.
I think you are.
Well, we're not.
And so Justin Martyr was wrong about that.
I'd be happy to speak.
And this doesn't pose a problem for Christianity.
It does, because, as you said, the doctrine of the Trinity doesn't come until the 4th century.
So why?
No, there were people teaching it from the beginning.
Justin Martyr was a very good person.
I'm going to let you talk.
You're interrupting me now.
Listen, as I said, you just said that the doctrine of the Trinity came about and was established at the Council of Nicaea in the fourth century in the year 325.
We can talk about it another time because we would actually like to talk about theology.
We want to talk about that 95%.
So maybe we can do that another time.
But the point is, and I challenge you, and I will be happy to debate this another time, that in the first 300 years of the church, you do not have a single church father, whether it be Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, if you want to go to Tertullian, although some people think he's just a church writer, down through the line, up until the fourth century, they did not teach the doctrine of the Trinity, and I will defend that position anytime, anyplace.
Okay, because sure, there were plenty of church fathers who taught the Trinity, Ignatius of Antioch.
There were plenty of church fathers who taught the Trinity before Nicaea.
It didn't spring out of nowhere.
Basil the Great writes about it quite extensively.
And so it's acting like it was when.
Some people made it up.
Well, he comes after the definition, but I'm saying that he explains.
So what's the point of the words?
Right.
So you think that he's four?
And he's one of the great saints, and he's revered as also one who is explaining and formulating the doctrine.
Yeah, exactly.
I'd like to transition to next story.
Yeah, we're getting in the weeds here.
But this is a lot of people.
We don't want to do that.
That's why I said we went through that part at the beginning.
We have a few different things to go through.
So Dylan Mulvaney, transgender, Bud Light.
He comes out.
He's going viral.
He costs Bud Light.
You know, Anheuser-Busch, I don't know, $29, $30 billion.
It's a lot of money it costs him, right?
If Dylan Mulvaney today has a change of heart, goes to sleep, cannot sleep all night, is praying, boom.
He wants to find God.
Would the religion of Christianity or Muslim welcome Dylan to convert to become a Muslim or a Christian?
Would Muslim welcome Dylan Mulvaney?
Yeah, if he accepts that he cannot be other than his biological sex, you know, that would be acceptable.
Like when you become Muslim, it just requires saying the testification of faith.
There is no God but God.
There is no God but Allah.
And Muhammad is his final messenger.
Then you become Muslim and that wipes away everything that you've done previously.
You start with a completely clean slate.
So everyone is welcome to become Muslim and we invite everyone.
So even a Dylan Mulvaney could be a Muslim.
On your end, Dylan Mulvaney lived a different kind of a life, wants to become a Christian, changes life.
What position does the Christian faith take?
Welcome.
Yeah, anybody can repent and become a Christian.
Actually, Christianity is for sinners, people who admit their sins and want to follow Jesus so he can live a better life.
And has his life changed?
And that's what happened to me and happens to millions.
Well, in case he's watching, you have two choices now, Dylan.
I wanted to clarify that for him.
I agree with Daniel.
He needs to admit he's a guy.
Great.
And I'm sure if he's going to go through that, he'll do it.
Next question for you.
Enemy.
Who is the enemy of Christians and who is the enemy of Muslims?
Who's the enemy of Christian faith?
Well, the classic answer is by St. Paul that we're not fighting against earthly powers, but against spiritual powers.
And ultimately, there's a spiritual aspect to everything that an individual experiences in his life.
Most of the time, they're not aware of it.
But there are evil forces that try to lead people to do evil acts.
Yeah, the enemy is anyone who threatens freedom, our freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of religion.
And anyone who is trying to kill the ones who are different than his religion or his thinking or his way of thinking.
So any worldview that will threaten my freedom, my way of life, my way of changing, choose today to be a Christian, tomorrow, a Jew, tomorrow, an atheist.
Anything that will threaten my choices and will force me just to follow one way, I'll consider it an enemy.
Yeah, so that's an interesting answer.
It seems like his religion is secularism and not Christianity.
But when it comes to Islam, the biggest enemies defined in the religion is number one, Satan, because he tempts people and takes them off of the straight path.
Then what's called dunya, which is like the worldly life, which is a delusion, the life to come, the afterlife.
That is the true reality.
Dunya.
Dunya.
Exactly.
So we have to be focused on God and worshiping Him and being on the straight path.
And then also our desires, like lust that will cause us to commit sins.
And then also our ego, which is called nefs, the ego which tells us that we're greater than God, that we are more important and that we are better than others just because we are who we are.
These are the four spiritual enemies of humankind.
And then in terms of a worldly perspective, I would say liberal secularism is the biggest enemy to all traditional people, Muslim, Christian, and it is the world power today.
Did you have anything to say or you go with that?
No, I mean, I just be reiterating what Dan is.
Sounds good.
So here's a question I got for you.
Obviously, in America, everybody here lives somewhere in America, right?
We all live in America.
And there's a reason why we're here.
We'd like to stay here, God willing, make our life work, make things work, and make it a place where we can raise our kids, have a family.
Actually, I don't want to.
You want to move out of here.
So you're looking at other places.
Really?
Have you thought about some places?
Morocco.
Oh, so you want to go where he is from?
Yes.
Okay, fantastic.
Any reason for it?
What's your reasoning?
My wife is from Morocco, and I've been there many times.
I've spent a lot of time there, and I enjoy it.
And I want to, I haven't had any children yet, and I am actually afraid about the American society and the way it's going, especially over the past 10 years.
And I don't want to raise my children here.
And by the way, to be fair, a lot of parents are also concerned about what's going on in America today.
So good for you for actually wanting to go there.
So here's one part that's confusing to me.
About three quarters of people of Muslims voted for Hillary Clinton when she ran for office.
About three quarters.
This is not too long ago.
They voted for it.
That's Muslims, right?
Today, 74% of Muslims vote Democratic.
Okay, when I look at values and principles, I'll give you top 10 issues for the 2024 ticket for Democrats and Republicans.
And I kind of want to get your thoughts here because this is an area where I feel like, you know, Muslims and Christians can actually be unified in certain areas.
And if we do, it's going to be a formidable opponent to go up against.
I'm sure they're not going to like this.
So 10 most important issues for Democrats in 2024.
Number one, climate change and environmental policy.
Number two, health care.
Three, Black Lives Matter, you know, police reform, things like that.
Four, economic inequality.
Five, voting rights.
Six, education, then gun control, foreign policy, national security, labor rights and jobs.
Okay.
The left is more pro-LGBTQ, that being taught in schools.
You know, it's things that they're open to the idea.
What's wrong with that?
Let them learn at an early age, et cetera, et cetera.
On the right, Republicans, economic policy and taxation, number one.
Number two, conservative judiciary.
So Supreme Court, having conservatives being conservative, Supreme Court being conservative.
Immigration, border security, four Second Amendment rights, national security and defense, social and cultural issues like abortion, religious freedom, opposition to certain aspects of the culture worlds, wars, et cetera, critical race theory, LGBTQ, some of the focal points.
Seven, election integrity.
Eight, state rights and federalism.
Nine, energy and environmental policy.
And 10, being healthcare.
So Dems, healthcare number two, Republicans, 10.
You know, when I talk to a lot of Muslims, the values and the way they raise their kids and their families, I don't see any of it that would match much of what the left is presenting.
Why do so many Muslims vote Democratic?
Well, it happened after Bush.
It happened after Bush basically pushed through this Patriot Act, which criminalized so many Muslims just for their beliefs.
So many Imams were deported, so many Imams in America, like American Imams, just based on technicality.
So many Imams were put under investigation, put on watch lists, no fly list, which was expanded under Obama, actually.
And so that kind of attack on the Muslim community by the Republicans really traumatized a lot of the Muslim community.
And I, for many years, have been telling Muslims that, look, we shouldn't just reflexively align with the progressive left because their tolerance and their acceptance of Muslims is only skin deep.
When you actually look at the policies and the foreign policy of the Democrats, like Hillary, of all people, like Obama, they also have some very anti-Muslim policies, both domestically and internationally.
And we have to look beyond the niceties, like Joe Biden will come on and say, you know, inshallah, or Ramadan Mubarak, and maybe a Republican won't do that.
So just because he gives you that nicety, you're going to like bow to that political party.
That makes no sense.
We should not align with one particular party.
We should maintain our independence and others should cater to the Muslim community as a voting bloc as opposed to us giving our allegiance to one side reflexively in the way that has been done in the past 10, 15 years.
Got it.
What would you say, Jake?
No, I just reiterate the same thing so we can give them a chance.
Robert, what are your thoughts on this one here?
Because to me, you know, I look at the history and I have the conversations and I'm always, you know, surprised on what value from the left.
I know there's a party where it's like, well, the right is more pro-Israel than the left is.
Sometimes the right is too much defensive of that and the left is a little bit more open to the idea.
But what would you say?
Well, Israel does have something to do with it.
And it is also a lot actually what Daniel said.
Some of it was actually true.
That the policies of the Bush administration and some of the things that still linger were so incredibly wrongheaded.
And Muslims were quite resentful in some cases with immense justification.
At the same time, also, And I think this is the heart of the matter.
The left is sold out to the idea of racism and is obsessed with the idea of racism.
Islamic groups in the United States, particularly after 9-11, but before that also, like the Council on American Islamic Relations, Muslim Public Affairs Council, and others, they very skillfully have trayed any criticism of Islam, even opposition to jihad violence and Sharia oppression of women and others, as racism and bigotry.
And, you know, Daniel actually said in some of his debates that you criticize the left's agenda and you get put on hate lists and deplatformed.
Well, that's actually happened to me because I spoke the truth about Islam and the left does not want that out.
They are completely sold out to the idea that Muslims are all of one race and that they're non-white and that consequently any opposition to Islam is just racism and white supremacy and that consequently they have to stifle all criticism of Islam and all opposition to jihad and defame and destroy those who speak that criticism.
And so the Islamic groups love that because Sharia actually criminalizes criticism of Islam and it carries the death penalty.
But you're working on your work is racist.
That's a lot of hui.
Your site calls for investigation of me, like his site.
He's called to investigate me.
Yeah.
Well, do you read your article?
You do call for the death penalty for apostasy and so on.
There are articles on his site dedicated just to me that I need to be investigated because I don't agree with LGBTI.
May I respond?
On his site, the thing about Robert Spencer, and I'm glad that he brought up this issue of racism, he is a racist.
Like his site, anytime a Muslim anywhere or any Middle Easterner, doesn't have to be a jihadi or doesn't have to be a Muslim even, commits a crime, he puts it on his site and says, oh, jihadi, Islamic terror.
And he creates this fear-mongering against immigrants.
And imagine if you had a site dedicated to whenever a Jewish person committed a crime, you say, oh, Judaic violence, and you called your site Jew Watch.
Or anytime a black person committed a crime, say, oh, black watch, this is black terror, this is black crime.
That's what he does to Muslims.
And he's had a long career of this.
He was involved in the same counter-terrorism work with the Republicans that he's now decrying and saying, oh, yeah, I disagree with that.
You are a part of that effort.
You are part of those administrations.
Daniel, you're lying.
You're advising them.
You're lying again.
I did advise the FBI when I was invited.
I advised the FBI and military groups, CIA, a couple times.
Absolutely, yes.
And that was mid-level people who invited me who were trying to change the point of view of the higher-ups.
And that's why I got in.
That's not what I'm saying as terrorists.
And I wrote these three-letter agencies on me because of the kinds of work that you're doing.
You're defaming me and you're lying, and I need to have changed your response.
Yeah, there are four articles there.
How many articles are at Jihad Watch?
About 80,000, going back 20 years.
Muslims.
There are four that mention you, and three of them I didn't write.
So I'm not entirely versed on everything they say.
Mainstream Muslim speakers.
And you depict them as terrorists.
You are not mainstream.
Hatemongers who need to be investigated.
You are a family.
Hatemongers.
And you approve.
Did you not approve of the Taliban?
I approve of many Muslim governments.
Do you approve of the Taliban?
Yes or no?
You always have to do it.
I do approve of the Islamic Maratha of Afghanistan.
Okay, great.
Yes, I do.
So I track jihadists.
Excuse me.
Do you approve of the Russian Orthodox Church invading Ukraine?
No.
No, you don't.
So you denounce the Russian Orthodox?
Yeah, sure.
Okay.
Your own church creates.
The hierarchy.
That's not my church.
You're not Orthodox.
I am Orthodox.
See, you have no understanding of Christianity.
You've denounced the Baha'i.
I am Greek Orthodox.
No, you're lying again.
You set up these straw mansion.
But the point is that he's racist.
He's been cited by terrorists.
Anders Breivik, who is about 100 people in Norway.
He's on Robert Spencer.
He said, read everything from Robert Spencer about Islam.
Am I going to have to endorse terrorists?
He keeps multiplying these things.
And so you have to allow for some time.
Would you accept with a site called Jew Watch?
Answer that.
It's not an analogy.
If my sites were Muslim Watch, then yeah, you would have a point.
But it's not.
It's Jihad Watch.
And jihad is people killing innocent people, terrorist activities, flying the planes into the buildings on 9-11.
And so I track jihad activities.
Muslims in flying.
Excuse me, you are interrupting again.
And you were trying to make sure that I can't answer this defamation because you know that it's lies and you want to make sure the truth doesn't get out.
But the fact is that the site tracks jihad activity, and it is a lie that if a Middle Eastern or a Muslim person commits a crime, I put that on the site.
I only put it on the site if there is justification for the behavior in Islamic texts and teachings.
Islam advocates for random killing of people.
That's false.
You think plenty of Islamic authorities that I can give justify that verses in the Bible that justify any time a Jew, anytime a Jew commits me to meet me, you are interrupting yet again.
You put it on a site.
Excuse me.
There are plenty of Muslims who will justify Muslim clerics who justify the behavior.
And I give the quotes.
People that have Brevek goes, I knew this was going to come up at some point.
It is a total lie.
It was a total lie from the beginning.
And I was ready for it.
So I actually have what Brevek actually said.
The Muslims showed us that deadly shock attacks are the only tool we have at the moment, which will guarantee that our voice is heard.
That's on page 1351 of his interview.
Read what he says about you.
Yeah.
Read what he says about you.
He quotes me and he quotes a lot of other people.
He says, I recommend everything Robert Spencer has written on Islam.
Did he say that or not?
Did he say that or not?
I didn't say that.
Now, do you realize what you're saying here, what you're getting yourself into here?
No, because he did not make me.
Excuse me.
You keep talking over me because you do not want to be aware of it.
You asked me a question.
You asked me a question.
Brevik, you have the same ideology as Brevik.
You actually said the same criticized me.
Brevik actually criticized me because I would not call for violence.
And you're on pencils and what's wrong with you.
Yeah, Brevik is this crazy man in Norway who killed 77 people at a youth camp.
They were not Muslims, incidentally.
They were just kids.
He was a nut.
He was a lunatic.
And he wrote this 1,300-page manifesto, which is very suspect.
Because, for example, one of the reasons why I'm mentioned many times in it is because in it is the entirety of the script of a documentary I was in in 2002.
And I asked the producer of the documentary, how did this lunatic get the transcript of the documentary?
And he said, I don't know.
Not only was it never published, but it was never even made.
We never made a transcript.
And this guy who speaks broken English in half of his manifesto is suddenly perfectly transcribing an over 100-page documentary in which I'm mentioned multiple times and speak multiple times.
It's very suspect.
And we don't know if it was behind it.
Who was with him?
I'm suggesting his manifesto was, yeah.
You don't think he did.
Obviously, the killing was real, but I think he might have written part of it, but he certainly had helped.
He didn't write it.
Now, anyway, the thing is, is that he said that the Muslims inspired him to do violence.
He says that very clearly.
I just gave you the quote.
If being quoted by a bad person makes one evil, then the Quran is not a problem.
That's not my question.
You're strawmanning my position.
The Quran is not a problem.
You're strawmanning my position.
The Quran is quoted all the time by terrorists.
So if I am guilty because if I am guilty because Brevet quoted me, then the Quran is guilty because terrorist committed all of them.
Robert, I'm going to give Daniel a chance to respond, and then we have silently.
I haven't even finished responding to everything else he said.
Yeah, did you have a follow-up on what you wanted to say?
So the thing is, my point wasn't that, oh, he just cited Robert and that makes Robert bad.
That wasn't my point.
My point was that Robert shares the same ideology as that terrorist.
The terrorists had the view that immigrants are a problem, specifically Muslim immigrants.
They cause a problem for Western society.
We need to stop immigration.
This is a white supremacist, white replacement type of ideology, which Robert either shares or he basically facilitates with his site, which takes any time a Middle Eastern person commits a crime.
And the best example, he claims that, oh, we check whether the person has a Muslim background and has some kind of Muslim ideology.
This is false.
Just recently in June, there was a Syrian who stabbed children in France.
And Robert immediately posted, oh, another Muslim jihadi attack on his Twitter.
His site put up an article.
Then it turns out that this guy is a Syrian who's a Christian.
His name is Abdul Nasir, which means slave of the Messiah.
He's a Christian.
And all the major news reports, BBC France24, reported that this was a Christian, actually.
Robert doubled down.
He said, no, no, no, this is a Muslim.
And his site continues to have an article up that says this Christian is actually a Muslim who stabbed children in a playground.
This shows that's a racist.
This is a racist ideology that he's promoting because it's not based on ideology.
He just sees a Middle Eastern name and says this is Islamic terror.
And that's just one recent example.
Many examples of this.
Recently, there was a stabbing.
We'll spend two more minutes on this.
Okay.
Well, then I have to have a chance to do that.
You have a go-for-order respondent.
As far as the guy in June goes, he said he was stabbing babies and he says, praise be to Jesus Christ.
Now, this is obviously he's somebody who's trying to imitate whether he's a Muslim who is pretending to be a Christian.
ISIS has called for Muslims to pretend to be Christians in the West and carry out terror attacks.
So that's a possibility.
Also, there were people who knew him who stepped forward and there were stories about it in the French press that said he was actually a Muslim.
So I reported on these things.
And I reported when he said he was a Christian, it's all there.
It was a developing story, and there were several articles that we had about it.
But the idea that there was some deception, much less racism, that's just Daniel trying to demonize somebody who actually agrees.
I agree with Daniel about it.
That's what I'd like.
That's the funny thing about it.
That's why you call for my investigation.
I'd like to go to the next phase.
But I think you should be, yeah.
I'd like to agree with you.
There you go.
I'd like to go to the next phase.
What do Christians and Muslims have in common?
What do they have in common?
Well, they would have disagreed, but monotheism is certainly one thing.
Definitely not.
And there is in Islam the appropriation of the biblical prophets such that it's kind of invasion of the body snatchers Christianity.
I mentioned the movie before.
They take your personality and give you a different one.
And so you have Abraham, you have Moses, you have Jesus in the Quran, but they're completely different figures from what they are in the Bible.
Robert, what do Christians, Muslims, and Jews have in common in America?
What values and principles do Muslims, Christians, and Jews have in common in America?
Yeah, there's a general probably in some aspects of sexual morality, with the exception of polygamy and sex slavery of infidel women and some other things like that, wife beating.
But otherwise, you have the idea of the value of marriage.
That's something certainly that they have in common.
What would you say?
What do Christian Jews and Muslims have in common?
Values and principles in America?
Yeah, we have shared values with actual traditional Christians.
When it comes to Reform Christians, they're basically like Reza Aslan, Christian versions of Reza Aslan.
Can you even call them Christians?
With traditional Christians that actually care about the Bible and just don't call it a book of fables, we have values in marriage, you know, preserving marriage, preserving chastity, modesty, opposing sexual immorality, preserving gender.
You know, the concept of gender is so important.
That's a shared value with traditional Christians and traditional Muslims.
The importance of the family, respecting parents, respecting, you know, raising children the right way, raising children to respect these values of morality, communities coming together.
These are all shared values.
They're traditional values.
Do you think?
Belief in God, belief in God and caring about God.
Do you think society or, you know, again, rip this apart as much as you want.
Brother Rashid, you can, what I'm about to say here right now, you can come in and fully disagree with what I'm saying.
Do you think there is a, you know, how we always talk about who are the people of power, like the real people of power?
I'm not talking about like, you know, millionaires and billionaires or presidents.
I'm talking people that are really the people of power, right?
Do you think they would like to keep Christians, Muslims, and Jews, specifically Christians and Muslims, divided, pinned against each other with the fears of them potentially being united?
Or no, that's a religious division that there will never be an element of a unification amongst Christians and Muslims against a common enemy.
I mean, as somebody who studied Islam, Islam puts Christians and Jews as the first enemies from the first, from its started.
Muhammad's enemies, they were Jews and Christians.
He never mentioned Buddhists or Hindus or any other religion.
He mentioned basically Christians and Jews.
So the Muslims inherited that enmity from Muhammad until today.
If you ask them who is the enemy, they will be the West.
If you go to Morocco, for example, do statistics, it will be the West, especially America and Israel, because they represent Christians and Jews.
So when the Quran says do not take Jews and Christians as friends, do you think what happened to Jews and Christians through history was just random or was based on doctrine?
When the Quran says like you have to fight the Christians and Jews until they submit and they give the jizya, do you think that enmity started back then in the 7th century or just somebody caused it today?
The enmity is inherited in the text in the Umar bin Khattab.
He kicked the Jews and Christians from the Arabic Peninsula.
And Muhammad said, I will kick out Christians and Jews until only Muslims are kept in the Arabic Peninsula.
When he was dying in his deathbed, he said, Cursed be on Jews and Christians because they took the graves of their prophets as shrines.
So all these things are embedded in Islam.
Actually, my book, the ideology behind Islamic terrorism, the first chapter is in the beginning it was hatred.
So the beginning, the root of terrorism is hating who are not Muslims, especially Jews and Christians.
There is a huge hatred.
Actually, in the Sunnah, hating the non-Muslims is a must.
It's a part of fate.
They have a doctrine called You have to take only believers as your close friends and close allies, and you have to hate disbelievers.
So this is inherited.
If somebody wants to follow Islam by the letter, he should take Christians and Jews as enemies.
Look, I'll answer your question.
Actually answer your question.
The powers that be, do they want to divide Christians and Muslims?
Yes, absolutely.
The powers that be started this war on terror and they started this attack on all religion and tradition.
They started with Muslims and they created this counter-extremism policy.
If you have certain beliefs as a Muslim, you believe that we should follow the Quran as it was revealed, follow the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, then you are an extremist and we have the right to surveil you and detain you, etc.
Now they've moved that from Muslims to Christians.
Now Christians are coming under fire.
All the tactics that were used against Muslims are now being used against Christians.
Christians are being watched by the FBI.
You go to protests like Drag Queen Story Hour at the public library or at the school board, you're on a watch list by the FBI.
So these were tactics that are used by Muslims.
Now they're being used against traditional Christians.
And Robert Spencer was a part of that whole apparatus.
So yes, the powers that be do want to divide Muslims and Christians because that way they can have an easier time.
Most people are attracted to traditional religion.
Most people hate feminism.
Most people hate LGBT.
Most people hate these new isms, these ideologies, and they want to stick to their traditions and values.
How do the powers that be want to conquer those religions and values?
Divide and conquer.
So that definitely, I'm on the same page with you on that.
Yeah, I only ask the question because, you know, when I started our own insurance company, this is the thing I can use, is because we attracted people from all walks of life.
It didn't matter who it was, black, Hispanics, Asians, Christians, Scientologists, atheists, Catholics, Hispanics, Catholics.
And we figured out the way to find things that we had in common.
We have disagreements.
I just had a very nice, friendly debate with one of our top guys who's a Muslim.
And we had a religious debate, we had a political debate, but then we found a bunch of things we agree with, right?
What they valued, what we value.
I don't think, you know, eventually when, and I know I'm going to use this analogy because we talked about the mob earlier and you were talking about what happens when you leave the mob and you're talking about what happens when you leave the Muslim faith.
Eventually in New York, the five mob families came together and they unified together, right?
And I'm not using that analogy to say the similar things here, but I wonder what would happen if we realized that what they're trying to do to our kids, none of us agree with.
You know, none of us agree with.
You know, the whole saying goes that somebody can curse you out and you're like, yeah, whatever.
Robert, you're such an F and this.
Okay, cool.
Hey, you know, you're such a F and this.
All right, cool.
Hey, let me tell you, you know, you're a loser.
Cool.
All right.
Hey, I'm going to turn your kids into teaching them about LGBTQ at five years old.
I'm sorry?
What did you say?
I'm going to do that.
In Armenians, like, you go after the mother?
No, no, we're not doing that.
You go after Prophet Muhammad?
Hey, what are you talking about?
What are you doing?
This is not okay with us.
I think, you know, that's happening today.
And I don't know if it's there right now, but I would be very interested in finding ways to get more and more of these communities together to talk.
We're going to have differences.
We're going to have philosophical differences when it comes down to religion and theology and this and that, of course.
And by the way, I'm not sitting here saying I agree with some of the values and principles that your church offers or your faith offers.
I can't live like that.
But I respect the fact that you respect it and you're devoted to it.
It doesn't mean it's something I want to do, but at the same time, you're talking family, you're talking kids, you're talking certain things that we could agree on, traditional values that you're talking about.
I can get behind that.
Somebody may watch this and they're Muslim.
They're looking at Robert.
And Robert's obviously the biggest antagonist on this show today because naturally you've written the most things that's upset the most from the Muslim side.
So you're going to be a target.
And you've taken it like a, you know, you've been a good sport about it.
You know, you've sat here and you've heard and you've given your position.
Jake's come at you very prepared.
I think Jake has done a phenomenal job with his arguments that he's at.
Daniel's been very respectful.
Brother Rashid, you have been, from your standpoint, extremely passionate about what you've done.
And to be quite frank, your testimony is probably the most powerful one out of all of ours at this table.
Thank you.
Because you've gone through it.
You went through it.
You've seen the pain.
And at the end, though, the audience, I hope, gets to see again that we can sit down, have a conversation, be respectful.
Everybody made their points.
There was no limitations on what one could say.
And I think the real bigger enemy is not going to like us finding ways to unify.
I just don't think they are.
And the role I'm playing here is an element of my own curiosity and long-term finding ways to, you know, fastest way to eliminate an enemy is to turn him into an ally.
I'm trying to find ways if we can have some kind of a relationship and unify folks from different sides and see where this can go.
So having said that, we are at the end of the podcast, at the end of the discussion that we had.
Appreciate everybody's sportsmanship and being respectful to one another.
For the most part, everybody was respectful.
Rob, let's make sure we put the links below to everyone's book so everybody knows, as well as if you do have a YouTube channel, if you'd like to promote it so people know to come and find you as well, you do have one if you don't mind sharing yours.
Everybody, if you can do that, and then we'll wrap it up.
Yeah, my YouTube channel is the Muslim Metaphysician.
So if you just typed it in on YouTube or any social media platform, Twitter and whatever else, you should be able to find it there.
I mostly discuss theology with Christians and atheists.
So that's what I focus on, and you can find it there.
Daniel?
Yeah, I have the Muslim Skeptic channel and also Muslimskeptic.com where we really debate a lot of these issues that are brought up.
We didn't get a chance to get into detail on some of these issues like minor marriage, quote-unquote, wife beating, et cetera.
So I really analyze these topics and I explain them in a way that audiences can understand and really appreciate the Muslim perspective, the Islamic perspective.
So yeah, and I appreciate you, Patrick, for doing this and having this kind of conversation.
I think it's really valuable and I appreciate you for that.
Yeah, I'd like to add that too, because I didn't get a chance to say that.
I think that you've been very fair and we appreciate that.
Also, one more plug that I can make, sorry, for Mohammed Hijab, because Muhammad Hijab, you talked to him and Eddie, and they facilitated this.
So I really hope that you have Muhammad Hijab on here because he's really a Muslim, amazing Muslim public intellectual.
And he'd be, you know, you have a great conversation, inshallah.
I would love to have a very influential gentleman like Mohammed Hijab, one from the Jewish community and one from the Christian community for all of us to have a conversation together.
I realize two hours is not enough, two and a half hours is not enough.
I think that may be three, four hours, but we'll figure something out.
I know you have a channel.
I know you're all over the place as well.
Yeah, I actually I'm a little bit lagging in terms of the videos.
I have a YouTube channel, Jihad Watch Video, and every Wednesday evening, whenever we can do it, David Wood and I do a show this week in Jihad covering the latest news.
But unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot else there.
I've been focusing on writing books.
I have the Critical Quran and book, The Empire of God: How the Byzantines Saved Civilization, a history of the Roman Empire in the Byzantine period that's coming in November.
I'm also writing a new biography of Muhammad.
Muhammad, a critical biography, evaluating the historical value of the various texts.
I'm about halfway done with that.
That'll be out next year.
Fantastic.
Thank you, Brother Rashid.
Yeah, I have a website called BrotherRashid.com and also a YouTube channel called Brother Rashid TV.
And also have a Twitter account.
You can find me, Brother Rashid, Facebook page.
I have 2 million followers on Facebook page, so you can find me there.
And also my book is on Amazon if you want to buy it.
The ideology behind Islamic Terrorism.
It's there.
What a weird podcast.
This is amazing if you think about it.
Thank you so much, Patrick, for doing this.
Thank you very much.
Anytime, guys, thank you again for being respectful and being a sport about it.
This was fantastic.
Hopefully, in the future, we'll do many more of these again.
Gang, for those of you that watched it, I hope you appreciated this conversation as much as I did.
Have a wonderful weekend, and we'll do this again next week.
