The TRUTH About Jeffrey Epstein w/ Whitney Webb | PBD Podcast | Ep. 198
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PBD Podcast Episode 198. In this episode, Patrick Bet-David is joined by Whitney Webb, Vincent Oshana & Adam Sosnick.
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Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal bestseller Your Next Five Moves (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
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Listen, episode 198.
We're two away from 200.
If you're listening to this, one thing about our podcast, man, I got to tell you guys, one day we're talking business.
One day we're talking politics.
One day we're talking economy.
One day we're talking interest rates.
One day it's like, and today we're talking Epstein and an author who Whitney Webb wrote two books called One Nation Under Blackmail.
She did so much investigative journalism on this topic that she had to do a volume one and a volume two.
The first one is between the intelligence and crime that gave rise to Jeffrey Epstein.
And the second one is around how organized crime gave rise to Jeffrey Epstein.
This goes back to Mossad.
We're going to talk about Jelaine Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, who is a very, very interesting character himself.
I think he came from a family of nine, and I think he had nine kids or seven kids.
And I think the last kid he had was Jelaine.
So we got a lot of things to be talking about.
Her background, again, outside of that as an investigative journalist, she's an American writer, a researcher covering intelligence, tech surveillance, and civil liberties for the podcast, Unlimited Hangout.
Whitney is also a staff writer for Mint Press News and contributor to Ben Swan's website, Truth in Media.
Having said that, Whitney, thank you so much for being a guest here.
Hey, thanks for having me.
It's good to have you on.
Yeah, I'm really happy to be here.
If I could just correct the bio really quick, though, I used to work for Mint Press.
I still contribute there, and I write for my own site now.
Got it.
So you used to work, now you just contribute.
You don't work there anymore.
Yeah.
Okay.
I mean, that's important to say.
Yeah.
So the audience knows.
Great people, though.
You know, I like the team at Mint Press News that I don't.
You don't want him to tweet out today saying Patrick B. David said Whitney is still a writer with us.
I feel like the intention of this entire episode today is setting the record straight on a multiple level of topics.
Yeah.
But the whole thing is, like, some of the stuff we're going to talk about today, guys.
I mean, if you just brace for impact, it's going to be weird.
It's going to be deep.
It's going to be, if you're already into this and you've already been following it for yourself, you're going to say, okay, I know a lot about this and I've been looking forward to this podcast.
Great.
If you don't, you don't follow this.
You're driving in your car.
Maybe if you used to go on 85, go 72.
You know, if you're at work and you got your employees around you and you got like a deadline today, maybe don't listen to this at a 2.0 speed.
Listen to this at 1.25.
Slow down a little bit because we're going to talk about a lot of different things.
So just an opening thing.
There's a lot of things a person can do investigative journalism on.
You can do stuff on JFK assassination.
You can do stuff on many different things.
What got you turned on about wanting to learn about what's going on with Epstein?
Well, it was actually when Alex Acosta, who was Secretary of Labor under Trump, he was quoted by Vicki Ward and some other people as saying that the reason he backed off on Epstein was because Epstein, he was told that Epstein, quote, belonged to intelligence.
So I originally wasn't planning to write about the case because I tend to focus more on underreported stories.
And there was a lot of buzz around Epstein after his arrest at that time.
But once the intelligence angle came up, it was kind of like, well, I'd like to see where that leads.
Because even when that acknowledgement came out, there wasn't a lot of interest, at least it seemed to me anyway, in mainstream media and getting really to the bottom of what that means, that he belonged to intelligence.
What does that mean, belongs to intelligence?
It could mean a lot of things, right?
He could either have been an intelligence asset.
He could have been, you know, an agent.
And also, you know, which intelligence agency are we talking about, right?
So it was kind of an open question.
But, you know, once you get that type of acknowledgement about someone as controversial as Epstein, you know, a lot of things start to move to sort of protect the people who would have been his handlers.
When did you first hear his name?
And when did the general population out there start hearing his name?
Because I don't think I heard his name until 2018, 19.
Yeah, it'll take me.
My numbers right.
When did you hear him?
2019 was the arrest.
And I'd heard of him, you know, before because he was arrested previously in around what, 2006, 2007.
So his name was around because even then people knew of the association with people like Bill Clinton and Trump and a lot of very powerful and influential people.
He's been talked about for a while.
It's not a new thing.
He's been talking about the process.
But the photo is a lot more extensive.
Yeah, of course, absolutely.
The average person hearing Epstein's name is in the last handful of years.
A couple of years.
Absolutely.
That's a good question, right there.
So maybe from this perspective, what does the average person, in your eyes, since you've been doing a lot of due diligence and research on this, what does the average person think they know about Epstein?
And maybe we can get into what are some things we don't know that we should definitely know.
All right.
So as far as I see it, the narrative about Jeffrey Epstein that I think most people have absorbed because it's been the mainstream media coverage, they focus pretty specifically on what he was doing from 2000 to about 2006 or so and only on the sex crimes.
And beyond that, maybe a handful of outlets have talked about things maybe in the 90s, maybe things after his first arrest, what he did between that time and his second arrest.
But really beyond that, it's a very narrow focus, in my opinion, because this is a guy that really entered the workforce, I guess you could say, sometime in the 70s.
And he was, you know, visiting the Clinton White House in the 90s.
And there's been very little interest, especially in American mainstream media, in talking about that particular period of time in Jeffrey Epstein's career.
Actually, like UK media outlets like the Daily Mail and outlets like that have been much more focused on those aspects of the Epstein case than American mainstream media.
And that's pretty telling because, you know, Bill Clinton's an American, former American president, not a former British prime minister.
So, you know, why the lack of focus?
The Daily Beast has also talked a little bit about that.
But as far as I know, that's, you know, pretty much it.
So let's get into it.
So for, again, like you said, a lot of people, they know about, you know, what happened, some of the sex scandals in the earlier years.
Great.
We know about that.
We've seen that.
But going all the way back to how he got started in the 70s, the influence he had, there's got to be people that either trained him to do what he did in the 90s, 2000 or influenced him negatively and taught him some bad habits.
A lot of times in business, we'll bring an agent that comes from another company.
That company, if they do forgeries, because that guy learned some of those habits at a different company before they brought it, he's like, how did you learn how to do this?
Well, when I used to do mortgage, it was called creative financing.
Oh, my God, we don't do that.
That's not the right way of doing business.
So how do you yourself, when you look at somebody like this, someone must have taught him these bad habits?
Right.
So it looks to me that it was somewhere around the time he went to Bear Stearns, which was his first really entry into the financial world.
Because, you know, as I just mentioned earlier, most people think of Epstein as a sex criminal.
Based on my research, he's just as much a financial criminal as a sex criminal.
But in the book, I try and go even further back to that in pursuit of where this intelligence tie may have originally started.
And he apparently had a British rural family connection as early as the early 70s, like 1971, when he was in his 20s.
He was supposed to be backpacking in Europe.
There's some weird mystique around that particular trip that I note in the book.
But after that, he went to the Dalton School, which I think some people that looked into the case after his second arrest are probably familiar with because the man that hired him there, who is the headmaster of Dalton at the time, was William Barr's father, Donald Barr.
Bill Barr is in the two-time attorney general.
Attorney General.
Yes, and his father was a former veteran of the Office of Strategic Services, which is a precursor to the CIA.
And then he went to Columbia and was sort of a talent scout, I guess, in a sense, because he ran a lot of programs at Columbia focusing on talented high schoolers.
And it's very possible that Epstein was a very gifted high schooler in the New York area.
He graduated high school very young.
He went to the Interlocking Academy of Arts and was a very talented teenager.
So it's very possible he may have met Donald Barr that way.
But Donald Barr, for whatever reason, hires him to go to the Dalton School.
And according to former students quoted by the New York Times, he showed a weird interest in partying with underage kids even then and wanted to drink.
And some claim they hit on him and all this stuff.
And other people said that was normal at the Dalton School and all of that.
And the reason for him leaving isn't quite clear, but he was sort of headhunted there by Alan Greenberg of Bear Stearns and went and joined that particular bank.
And Alan Greenberg, just a couple of years after he brought Epstein into Bear Stearns, became the head of Bear Stearns.
So Epstein was sort of, from what I understand, seen his mentor was basically Greenberg.
And Greenberg goes to the top of the bank.
And so obviously that helps Epstein's career.
He climbs the ladder pretty rapidly there and then starts working with some of their elite clientele, the identities of which we don't exactly know.
But based on the circumstances under which he left, it was related to an SEC investigation focusing on insider trading of the Bronfman family company, Seagrams, I believe.
Yeah, so it seems like Edgar Bronfman, he may have been involved in advising him on some things.
And what he was apparently well known for and talented in at Bear Stearns was advising people about tax law.
So there may have been some sort of tax evasion stuff or something.
I mean, he left under rather murky circumstances.
And there's a lot of, you know, differing opinions coming out of there.
But in looking at the particular Seagram's insider trading stuff and that the SEC was tipped off, that Epstein knew something about it and Epstein leaves.
So there's no blowback for the bank because at this point, right, his mentor is the head of the bank that could obviously have impacts all the way up at Bear Stearns, right?
And another thing that's interesting is just a couple around that same time, the person who had been the legal counsel for Bear Stearns, most of the time that Epstein was working for that bank, became CIA director under Reagan, Bill Casey.
So these links, by the way, if you go on Donald Barr, because we went through that very quickly, Bill Barr's father, Donald Barr.
Okay, so that's Donald Barr.
When he was at Dalton, just to kind of put into perspective for the audience, how big of a deal is the school, Dalton?
Well, from what I understand, it's kind of one of the, you know, I'm not from New York City and I've never been there.
So, you know, I don't have like an insider understanding necessarily of that.
But from what I understand, a lot of, you know, elite wealthy people send their school send their children there.
Yeah.
And when he hired Epstein to become a professor teaching mathematics, this is a guy that's never had a degree before, right?
Like Epstein never got a degree.
No, he would have not been eligible, as I understand it, to even teach in public school in New York.
How does that make any sense for him to get a job, even though he's never had a degree before?
Right.
So Donald Barr apparently hired unconventional teachers and was known for this, right?
But he actually left by the time Epstein started.
Hiring decisions were apparently made in the spring.
And that summer, Donald Barr left after having made those hiring decisions.
So during most of Epstein's time there, it was another headmaster.
And from what I understand, Donald Barr's, him leaving the Dalton school was rather acrimonious.
Like he was sort of forced out, it seems, by angry parents and some angry teachers.
Yeah, so apparently he was he was there till what, summer of 94 is when I'm when you're forcing me to do so much research, it's not even funny.
I think it's like 74.
74, yeah, that's the summer of 74.
And then Epstein started working months prior to that, right?
Like in 73.
Teaching physics, teaching physics, and you don't have a four-year degree?
That's incredibly weird to me.
It's weird that he was hired considering that he couldn't even have taught at public school.
Is this Epstein or Bill Barr's father?
We're talking about it.
As far as who's teaching?
No, no, Donald Barrington.
Hired Epstein.
But Epstein didn't have a four-year degree to teach anything even in.
Yeah, he didn't graduate from undergraduate.
So just think about it.
And then by the way, the one thing that's also pretty weird with this whole connection is Donald Barr wrote a book.
Space Relations.
Yes, Space Relations, published a science fiction novel that contained several prominent references to and descriptions of rape and sexual slavery.
Sex slavery.
That's true.
And that was published shortly after he left the Dalton school.
So there's a weird mix here, right?
But I mean, you can't make any direct connection necessarily.
But given everything else we're talking about, about Epstein, intelligence, the sex crimes, all of that, it starts to look kind of, you know, weird, you know, this far back.
But, you know, obviously over time it gets.
Can you do me a favor and just pull up the follow-on?
Pull up the text I just sent you.
The only reason I'm showing this is because I know the folks at YouTube value Snopes because they want things to be looked at.
And if you can pull that up.
But while you're doing that, the strange part of the story is the fact that the person that ends up putting Epstein in jail is Donald Barr's son, William Barr.
Well, at this exact time when Donald Barr hires Jeffrey Epstein and all of this is going on at the Dalton School, William Barr is already at the CIA.
William Barr is already at the CIA.
That's where he started his career pretty much.
In 73, 74.
I think it was after.
Well, so Epstein, I think it started in 74.
So as I mentioned earlier, Donald Barr made hiring decisions in the spring, leaves that summer, and then Epstein starts that fall semester.
And in the same period of time, William Barr's already associated with the CIA.
Yes.
So for the folks at YouTube and others, here's Snopes.
Okay, so we're fact-checking this.
Did Bill Barr's father mentor Jeffrey Epstein and write a bizarre novel?
Okay, so if I can comment on that, we're not talking, I didn't say anything right now.
We haven't said anything about there being a mentor relationship, right?
It was a hiring decision.
So a lot of times with these fact-check sites, they'll put in like, oh, there was no mentor relationship, and then they debunk the whole thing.
But Donald Barr did write a bizarre novel.
Yeah, and he did hire Jeffrey Epstein.
Can you pull up a little bit?
Hang on.
Hang on, but let's see what these guys are saying because these guys, people follow these guys, mostly false.
So go up, So, okay, at the top, let me read that one first.
A claim, Donald Barr, father of U.S. General Bill Barr, hired Jeffrey Epstein as a teacher, served as his mentor, and wrote a novel about men raping teenage girls.
Okay, go to the bottom.
Mostly false.
What's true?
Donald Barr was headmaster of Dalton School in New York until the summer of 74.
In 74, Epstein began working as a math and physics professor at the school.
In 1973, Barr published a science fiction novel that contained several prominent references to and describes rape and sexual slavery.
What's false is Dalton is not an all-girls school and was not so when Epstein worked there.
The claim that Barr was Epstein's mentor appears to be more than an idol speculations, unsupported by evidence.
Barr's novel does not celebrate slavery or sexual violence against underage girls.
And in one instance, the protagonist brutal murders another character to avenge the rape of a teenage girl.
Right.
So I wasn't familiar with the date of the publication of the book, but I knew it was around the ballpark, you know, the same time that he's, you know, hiring Epstein.
So I didn't know it was earlier, but I've never heard the claim that it was an all-girl school as far as I understand it was at this time.
I mean, who would want to write a book like that?
Both genders.
But I mean, so I haven't read the book.
I've only read parts of it.
But from what I understand, there is like a sex slavery thing, but not necessarily for like minors, right?
But it is an odd book, to be sure.
Whitney, I know we're going to go a bunch of different directions, but what I want to sort of hunker down on is what's the importance of this narrative that we're creating right now, or not that we're creating, that we're discussing with Bill Barr's father, Donald Barr, Epstein.
What's the importance of this?
More broadly, I would say this is the beginning of several other examples in Epstein's career where it seems like he has a meteoric rise that would otherwise have been unavailable to him if it weren't for some sort of connections that he possessed.
You know, he's stepping into some sort of support network that protects him, not just through his, you know, financial criminality, but his sex criminality.
Because remember, he was doing this for a long time, including the sex crimes, and nothing happened to him.
I mean, you have someone like in January 2020, you have Cindy McCain, John McCain's wife, coming out and say, we all knew what Epstein was doing.
I mean, and there's no direct John McCain-McCain-Epstein connection that I've seen.
So this means, you know, in the U.S. Senate, it's known what he's doing and nothing happens to him.
You don't operate like that and abuse thousands of girls and get away with all of this stuff if you don't have someone behind you, right?
So this is just a case example, sort of an initial case example of like this sort of meteoric rise.
He shouldn't have been social climate.
How does this happen?
There's something behind the scenes here.
And this is sort of the first time that you're going to be able to do that.
He wasn't even qualified to teach public school, right?
So he's teaching at one of the most elite schools in New York.
And it's kind of odd.
This is at age 20.
I did the math.
This was in 1973.
He was born in 1953, give or take.
So he's college age, give or take, at this point.
Yeah, I believe so.
But he didn't graduate from college, right?
So it's just unusual that he'd be in that circumstance at this elite school.
And then it's again unusual that the head, you know, one of the top guys at Bear Stearns would be like, come work for my bank, a guy that hasn't graduated from college and all this stuff.
And it's supposedly because he mentored his daughter or his son.
I mean, there's a lot of discrepancies because the daughter was like, no, nothing to do with me.
And then other people were like, yes.
And, you know, no one wants to say they had any association with him.
This is a very basic question because we can go in a laundry list of the nasty, crazy things he's done.
But very simply, was he a very smart guy?
Like, as far as anyone around him is like, oh, he's really smart.
That guy knows what he's doing.
Yeah, he's not.
As far as just basic IQ and basic education.
Well, you've had a mix of responses, right, since he became infamous of people being like, yeah, he was really smart.
And then other people being like, no, he was just a schmoozer and charismatic and that was it.
And he just bamboozled people.
And I think the latter is sort of people trying to go back and rewrite history to an extent.
I think he was very good at, I mean, obviously he graduated from high school really young, but I think his real knack for stuff had to do with his financial abilities.
Let me just put it to you this way.
You're not going to get away for this long if you're not smart or even there's a better word for it.
Cunning, not cunning.
It's conniving, you know, where you can get away with manipulating people for this long.
Yeah.
There's brilliance there.
He had a skill set that made people a lot of money, a lot of money.
And that's part of why he got away with this for so long.
So let's talk, the skill set you're talking about is sex blackmail.
Is that what you're talking about?
I think that's part of it.
But as far as it comes to Jeffrey Epstein, it looks like that sex blackmail angle didn't really start until the early 90s.
And this is a person we're talking about, Epstein, in the 70s right now.
Then there's the whole question mark of the 1980s in Jeffrey Epstein.
And I would say that, like I mentioned earlier, the financial crime angle is just as important as the sex crime angle with Epstein.
And it's also the least explored when you're talking about this guy.
So what do we not know about the 80s?
Okay, so he leaves Bear Stearns.
I sort of mentioned there was this insider trading investigation and all of that.
And then Epstein goes on to claim that he's a financial bounty hunter.
That's his term for it.
And there's numerous quotes in mainstream media of people that knew Epstein that were told during this period that he was a person who claimed to find or hide money for powerful people.
So he's either finding money that was looted or he's helping people hide looted money.
So right there, you know that he's involved in some sort of financial gray area and that he has a very good working knowledge of the offshore banking system.
I mean, that we can deduce from that, right?
I think that's pretty.
So how does that help him?
So it's a financial bounty.
Okay, I get that.
But the bounty people I know, they're he calls himself a bounty hunter, a financial bounty hunter.
That's his.
He's used that terminology before, you're saying?
Yeah, this is in mainstream media.
A financial bounty hunter.
There's only a handful of ways you're able to get that.
But either way, whether you're helping people find money that was stolen or helping people hide their stolen money, you know where that money goes.
And the labyrinth of where that money is hidden, you know it better than anyone.
And that's why people go to you.
So the blackmail part is the creative one.
So in the insurance industry, there's something called premium financing.
And premium financing cases pay a lot of commissions.
We're talking five, you know, $10 million of commissions.
One guy is doing a premium financing case with a big billionaire guy.
And I'm not going to tell the story of who's who, but he takes the client away from the competitor.
So the competitor who was about to close this case is going to get paid five-something million dollars, is upset and says, you got to give this client to me because it's mine.
The other guy's like, I'm not going to take the client.
I'm not going to give the client to you.
It says, no problem.
He has three people that work for him, all dropped at Gorgeous Girls.
They go and investigate because a lot of times these successful people, they eat at the same place, they sit at the same place, so it's easy to find them.
He goes, creates an environment where the girl, it's the same script.
She's going through her husband beating all this stuff.
And she says, I'm so sorry, sits at the same place at the bar, eventually invites him back to his room, her room.
They go upstairs.
They do what they do.
He leaves.
The videotapes, the insurance guy sends to the other guy.
He says, if you don't give me that client back, this is going to your wife, to your clients, to your employees, to everybody.
So this is something, as weird as it sounds, this is not an abnormal thing.
This goes on quite often.
It's all in these circles specifically.
So knowing what you know, when you call yourself a financial bounty hunter, have you been able to investigate and see what his methods were to get the money back?
Unfortunately, it's super murky.
There's very little we do know, but from what we do know, it is pretty interesting.
So it seems like Epstein during this period had some sort of a relationship with a banknote as a Bank of Credit and Commerce International, BCCI.
According to the BCCI report, which is a U.S. Senate report, BCCI was involved in sex trafficking of minors, apparently for VIPs and other people, whatever that means.
I don't know, but some of them were pre-pubescent.
And this is coming straight from the Senate report, right?
Very underexplored aspect of this case.
The more you look at BCCI, it seems like it was nominally a bank, a development bank, but really it's, to me, sort of more like was a private intelligence apparatus sort of masquerading as a bank, a lot of intelligence involvement from the beginning, apparently Pakistani intelligence, but there was also, you know, reports in Newsweek going decades back, of course, because BCCI imploded in 1991 saying that the CIA had some sort of role in creating BCCI and was very involved in money laundering and all other sorts of stuff, this particular bank.
And Stephen Hoffenberg, who was a mentor to Jeffrey Epstein at some point later in the 1980s, has said that Jeffrey Epstein had a relationship with this bank.
And we know from people like Vicki Ward, for example, that during this financial bounty hunter phase, one of Epstein's main clients was Adnan Khashoggi, the arms dealer, who had a relationship with many intelligence agents.
Khashoggi, as in Jamal Khashoggi, the journalist.
They're related.
Wow.
Yeah.
It's crazy how this wow.
Yeah.
I mean, these are very nuts.
Yeah.
But I don't know if I necessarily am qualified to talk about the Jamal Khashoggi case.
Yeah, but just these names that keep popping up.
Bill Barr, what does he have to do with this Khashoggi journalist?
Clinton, Trump, this, Topstein, Additional.
The intelligence thing being confirmed from someone like Alex Acosta.
He was told Epstein belonged to intelligence.
And you're talking about all these names.
They have all these different intelligence affiliations.
It starts to become clear there's something much deeper to the Epstein case that, you know, mainstream media isn't interested in touching at all.
But anyway, Adnan Khashoggi during this period in the 1980s, one of his main banks was also BCCI.
And this is the same time when Adnan Khashoggi starts to put a lot of this stuff that later becomes known as Iran-Contra into motion, which also involves, of course, some drug trafficking, money laundering, arms trafficking.
It's a very complex.
Which Pat is very familiar with with the Iran-Contra affair.
So, okay, so let's keep going back to the 80s.
So is that pretty much all we know about what happened with him in the 80s?
With the financial bounty hunter stuff?
Well, the other thing is, too, right?
So, you know, Bill Casey had this relationship with Bear Stearns.
He's CIA director.
Epstein leaves, and then he teams up with someone like Adnan Khashoggi.
And then around the same time, two other people take on Adnan Ashogi as clients, Robert Keith Gray, who worked very closely with Bill Casey on the Reagan campaign, and Roy Cohn, the lawyer, who also worked very closely with Bill Casey on the Reagan campaign.
And as I note in volume one of my book, both of those men have very extensive ties to sexual blackmail.
Roy Cohn does.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Totally.
Now, Roy Cohn was a lawyer for a lot of mobsters, for many of the mobsters.
Yes.
And many powerful people in New York.
He was the guy you got when you needed somebody to take care of you.
Now, is Roy Cohn's story at all linked to J. Edgar Hoover or no?
Is there any connection between the two?
Yeah, I mean, I write about it pretty extensively.
They were very close.
And, you know, even Roy Cohn's, probably one of his best-known biographers, Nicholas Von Hoffman, that wrote Citizen Cohn, just couldn't really even explain why the official story of J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn's meeting.
He just found it very odd because it was so uncommon at that time for someone to just waltz in to J. Edgar Hoover's office and have that kind of access to him right away.
But there's been several authors and, well, I document this all in volume one pretty extensively, that point to there having been some sort of relationship previously that they had met previously through some sort of weird sexual, it seems to have been a sexual blackmail operation.
And Roy Cohn later apparently admitted this to an NYPD detective.
There was some sort of sexual blackmail thing going on that entrapped J. Edgar Hoover.
And Roy Cohn participated, not necessarily in entrapping J. Edgar Hoover, but they had these sex parties, right?
And so J. Edgar Hoover was seen at these.
Roy Cohn was seen as these.
And a guy that was close to both Hoover and Cohn, Louis Rosenstiel, who was a liquor baron of that particular area, was also sort of in the same circuit.
And it's alleged that this all took place at the Plaza Hotel.
It's important to say this, Roku, while you're going through this.
Everything that you write about is primary sources, right?
It's not, for the most part, you're going through primary sources.
Or, you know, so in the case of this, a lot of it comes from books, different books written by people that are sourced that way from interviews and things like that.
Got it.
But yeah, I mean, anyone that looks in the book and goes through the footnotes of what I write about is going to find like very high quality sourcing.
Sure.
So with Roy Cohen and J. Edgar Hoover, so you're not saying Roy Cohen was involved in the sexual blackmail against J. Edgar Hoover is why the mob was able to say Roy wasn't involved at all to corner J. Edgar Hoover so he can help the mob.
That was not the case.
Not necessarily, but they seem to have been in this, they attended these same sex parties that the mob was apparently using to blackmail people.
And when Roy Cohn admitted his involve, he apparently admitted to this NYPD Vice Squad detective that he was involved in these kind of operations, but that he only did it because he had been entrapped originally.
So this NYPD detective had like a, when I interviewed him, he expressed like some sympathy towards Cohn, like he felt bad for him.
But Cohn did this stuff because he was apparently entrapped at some point.
And, you know, you have to keep in mind this is a period of time when it's very difficult to be a gay man in D.C.
So, you know, a lot of this stuff is sort of like underground.
And, you know, if it were to come out that they were homosexual, it could have ended their political careers.
Both of them, him and J. Edgar Hoover.
Oh, absolutely.
And that's why the blackmail was so effective, I think.
Absolutely.
And by the way, even Roy Cohen's assistant who was with him, they call him he was his lover.
He died in 1984 from AIDS.
That's Roy Cohen's assistant who died in 1984 from AIDS.
And that's the AIDS pandemic where, you know, everybody was talking about it.
Roy Cohen also died from AIDS.
You're right, I know.
But, you know, the point being is his assistant died from it.
And then, boom, the same thing happened with him.
The stories with J. Edgar Hoover, he was the director of the CIA.
FBI.
I'm sorry, FBI.
The stories about cross-dressing and high heels.
How much truth is in that?
Okay, so there's a couple different sources from that.
So one is Susan Rosensteel, or I think that's her name, if I'm not mistaken.
It's Louis Rosensteele's fourth wife is a source for that.
And then there was a separate sort.
There were two or three separate sources unrelated to Susan Rosensteel that corroborated that claim.
So when there's that many sources, it's almost like when there's smoke, there's fire.
Well, you know, it's when it's corroborated, I mean, I feel like then it's possible to report it.
I mean, people can make their own conclusions.
I mean, there's some people, I think, that have a very vested image in the image of Hoover that we're all told.
So like, you know, there'll be people, it doesn't matter how much you corroborate it.
There'll be people who won't.
Do you believe that, Pat?
Now what?
About J. Edgar Hoover and cross-dressing.
If I'm going to put odds, nothing is 100% because I wasn't there to witness it while he was getting it on, but I would say 90%.
Oh, that high?
I think so.
I don't think it's an issue anymore.
His secret life with like Clyde Tulson and, you know, that he had a, he was a homosexual and all of this is well known.
And there's even been like Bill Clinton speeches from the 90s where he sort of references that about J. Edgar Hoover and everyone laughs in the room, right?
So like, you know, there may be some stuff that isn't known necessarily to the American public, but like in these elite circles in D.C., you know, they stuff gets out, right?
My question about elite circles, we constantly hear this word elite, the elites, the rich elites, the global elites, the elites.
You know, these days in America, everything's so fracturized.
I'm on team red.
I'm a Democrat.
I'm a political.
Very polarized.
Blue.
Very polarized, right?
And one thing I always say is like, I don't care about the blue.
I don't care about the red.
I follow the green, right?
It's all about the money.
Follow the money, right?
Oh, right.
I agree with you there.
These themes that we're talking about with J. Edgar Hoover back in the 50s and beyond that, JFK and to the 80s and Reagan and Clinton in the 90s, up until today and Trump, there seems to be like three common themes, money, power, and sex.
And that just sort of pierces through everything.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Those are major, the major three things probably that are a common thread throughout my book because my book really starts back in like the 40s and goes up.
And so, yeah, I mean, through that, those decades, that's what makes the world go around as far as the U.S. is concerned in power.
Because, you know, a lot of people look at the politicians and think that's the power, right?
Who is backing those politicians and who's backing those backers?
And to paraphrase JR or Tolkien, who's the banker of those backers, right?
So there's like always these different layers of power.
And talking about someone like Roy Cohn, Roy Cohen had a system called the favor bank system, which is what he called it.
And everyone he interacted with had an open account in his favor bank.
And you either, you know, do deals with him or you go against him and you get plus or minuses.
And, you know, you make all these unsavory alliances, especially New York City to stay in power and things like that.
And Roy Cohn learned a lot of this just growing up as a very young boy.
He was not typical.
He was very interested in power and accumulating it for a very young age.
And he was very close to like very prominent mob-leaked businessmen like Generoso Pope, who was the father of one of his best friends growing up and had this, he was very close to Frank Costello, the mobster, and ran one of the biggest cement companies or concrete companies in New York, obviously very important to real estate and very close to organized crime, very politically powerful because he ran, had a monopoly on the Italian language newspapers in New York for Italian immigrants.
So he basically controlled that voting block to a significant degree.
And so, you know, Roy Cohn had sort of an inside track into how all these deals are made behind closed doors with businessmen and politicians.
His father was a very prominent judge with the Democratic Party.
And at this point, the Democratic Party in New York, a lot of that power bases unions and the mob took over a lot of the unions very early on in the 20s and the 30s.
And there are even some cases I note in the book where, you know, they wanted a mob-backed politician in power.
They threatened the life of some guy and then they just put the mob guy in.
And this is back in the 30s.
Have things really changed?
I don't necessarily think that it has.
I think more mainstream media willingness to look at those cases has declined steadily with the years because what kind of journalist wants to take those kind of risks, right?
Especially if you live in the swamp that you're writing about.
Pat, let me get your opinion because this is mind-blowing to me.
I don't know if there's anybody on the planet like Pat that has interviewed collectively business people, political figures, and mob people.
Like if you put those three trifecta together, Pat, I mean, venture to say, I don't know if anybody's on your level in that regard.
You've interviewed Rudy Giuliani and kind of how they compare, you know, what the mob does and political figures.
Like when you're processing all this, you brought up Frank Costello.
Like you're hearing these common themes.
Like, how are you processing all this?
No, I mean, listen, it's a, I can see this happening because every the easiest way to get somebody like have to, you ever see somebody that flips?
Like even the conversation came up with Joe Manchin.
We're talking about why did he all of a sudden go from not supporting to supporting?
What happened there?
What happened with Colonel Powell go from where he was at to all of a sudden flipping?
Why do some people all of a sudden dramatically flip?
Which makes no sense.
You were loyal 60 years to this cause, then dramatically you go XYZ.
Did somebody have something on you?
Is somebody calling and saying, take a look at this picture, take a look at this video, take a look at this?
I'm not telling you to do this.
All I'm saying to you is if you don't, there are people much more powerful than me that are going to probably leak this to the public.
And I don't want your reputation to be ruined in the face of your kids and all that other stuff.
There are very few people that are willing to say, go ahead, do it.
I don't care.
Go ahead.
Very, very few people.
Matter of fact, I'm willing to say it's 0.0001% because these same people that are driven by power, sex, and money are also driven by legacy and their reputation.
And so the moment you risk their legacy and reputation, that's the ultimate control.
But what a, what do you, you want to talk about the ultimate slave?
The ultimate slave is when somebody has that kind of dirt on you.
For the rest of your life, you have to do whatever they tell you to do at the sacrifice of anything.
So has that happened?
Was the mob involved for doing this?
The mob wants to control and have power over you back in the days, the way they did it.
They had many creative ways of doing it.
I don't see this not being the case.
But let's go back into the 40s because there's a lot of names when we go back to the 40s.
So my interest in the follow-on is this.
Here's what my interest is.
Anybody that becomes a high, high-level criminal in any industry saw it through somebody else.
Typically, someone taught them how to do this.
It's not like they accidentally picked this up.
Somebody taught them how to do this.
You know, a few of them, maybe they're inspired by a book they wrote, a book they read or a movie they watched.
But for the most part, they saw someone do it.
So Epstein goes back.
Dalton brings him in.
Who taught him the sex blackmail model, though?
You don't know that.
No, it's very hard to know.
I mean, I'm sure there's some people who claim they know, but frankly, from what I've seen, it's very hard to know.
But I think it's more likely it took place somewhere in the 1980s.
It was probably either BCCI or even someone like Adnan Khashoggi, right?
Adnan Khashoggi had a yacht, and he was accused of having a harem of women on that yacht, and he would use that to butter up politicians, private businessmen, whoever he needed to, you know, help him accomplish his goals, which, you know, more often than not was, you know, selling weapons, weapons deals, right?
So, you know, there's a lot of different places that could have come from.
Like I mentioned earlier, BCCI was sex trafficking on basically an industrial scale.
And as I note in the book, the way it's described what they were doing in the BCCI report, very similar to what Jeffrey Epstein and Ghillene Maxwell later did.
There was a woman he was working with in that BCCI report.
So this is the creator of BCCI and a woman in Pakistan because they were trafficking women from Pakistan mainly to the elites of the United Arab Emirates.
It was probably more extensive than that, and it's sort of acknowledged in the BCCI report.
But what that report documents is this Pakistan to UAE pipeline.
And it's honestly very disturbing.
But the way it describes what this woman was doing in advancing this sex trafficking operation there, very similar to the role Ghelene Maxwell would later go on to play with Jeffrey Epstein.
I have a question about these women.
I mean, yachts, boats, women.
I mean, I grew up in South Beach.
This is every weekend, right?
This is not a big deal at all, except for this.
So women, I mean, there's no secret guys like beautiful women.
I don't think that's a controversial topic.
This is the tale as old as time.
But these young women, these underage women, my question is this.
Is it used for blackmail?
Are they a pawn in a deeper game?
Or are they just sick fucks that actually like younger women?
Meaning, oh, I'm into 15, 16 year old girls or no, I'm into hot women.
You tell them that they're 18, 20, 21, whatever.
Well, it actually turned out she was 16, dude, and we have pictures to prove it.
And we're going to use it as blackmail.
Which one is it?
I think it can be, it really depends.
It could be both, really, depending on the person.
I mean, look at Jeffrey Epstein, in Jeffrey Epstein's case, I think he was definitely doing the gotcha stuff and the latter stuff to people.
I think that's pretty clear.
But in addition, when he tried to justify himself to journalists after his first arrest, he would be like, now, listen, historically, the age of consent wasn't 16, and it's not that weird.
You know, once they hit puberty, like game on, basically, is what he was saying.
And people have pointed to, I think it's an op-ed piece that Alan Dershowitz wrote in I think the early 2000s or late 90s.
Don't know the exact date, but he says something like, you know, it should really be once girls start menstruating.
Dershowitz said this?
Yes.
This is why his name constantly gets brought up.
You know, I, you know, there's allegations against him, obviously.
By the way, he's talked about it and he's responded to it in interviews.
Like people have asked him.
He's very direct about it, but I think that's part of his strategy.
I think he feels like if he shirks away from it, people will assume guilt.
And I think he thinks he has a better chance of, you know, protecting his reputation if he confronts it head-on.
But I don't, you know, the court of public opinion, as far as Dershowitz is concerned, I think a lot of people seem to agree with the allegations.
But again, it's hard to know.
You know, when it comes to Epstein, you know, if your name gets associated with him, even Epstein acknowledged in early 2019, you know, he's radioactive is the word he used to describe himself after his first arrest.
Two things.
Let's talk about when the connection came with Clinton and then when he met Jelaine.
Which happened first?
He met Jelaine first, then he met Clinton.
Yeah, so with Ghelane Maxwell, it's publicly claimed that they met in late 1991 or so.
Their first public appearance together was when he sat next to her and her mother at a tribute to Robert Maxwell shortly after his death that was at the Plaza Hotel in New York.
But, you know, that was sort of, in my opinion, more of a coming out of their public relationship and this close association that followed from that point on of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghelane Maxwell.
I note in the book that there's differing allegations and people are open to make up their, you know, their own conclusions about it that they met years prior.
And there's also allegations from people that worked with Robert Maxwell when he was doing stuff for Israeli intelligence, including former Israeli intelligence agents, that Robert Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein knew each other in the mid-1980s and worked together on intelligence stuff, and that Ghelane Maxwell had sort of brought Epstein into the fold because they had some sort of romantic relationship in this who had the romantic relationship.
Jeffrey Epstein and Ghelane before 1991.
That's the claim.
Is that how you would, like, how would you describe their relationship?
Were they friends?
Were they lovers?
Were they business partners?
Was it all the above?
Was it weird?
Was it sex?
I think after 1991, it was definitely very business partner stuff.
There's been a lot of this stuff out there to absolve Ghelane, I think, in a sense, where they say, oh, she was just enamored with him, and that's why she did everything.
I think it's much more complicated than that.
And the reason I think they've been able to sell that narrative so well is because they just totally ignore her father and her relationship with her father.
Her father dies, and she's used to being in this particular relationship with a man, in this case, her father, who dominates her life and runs it basically for her and has for years.
And then he's dead.
And what does she do?
She goes to someone who's just like Robert Maxwell.
So it's important to find out more about Robert Maxwell because he himself was a very, very interesting character.
What do we know about Robert Maxwell?
Oh, man.
Well, I mean, we could fill up the whole book talking about Robert Maxwell, to be honest.
But really, his intelligence connections are a matter of record.
He was very closely associated with Israeli intelligence.
He was also closely associated with figures in Soviet and Eastern European intelligence to a significant degree, an alleged relationship with British intelligence.
I mean, it seems like he could have been a double or triple agent, you know, very involved with intelligence stuff.
And that's why it's complicated when we talk about intelligence affiliations.
Oh, you know, people are like, you know, Robert Maxwell was just Mossad.
Well, you know, it's more complicated than that.
These people are interested in money and power for themselves a lot of times.
So if it means, you know, helping these guys out and helping these guys out, having your hands in as many pies as possible to rake in more money for you and stuff like that.
I mean, a lot of these guys seem to do that.
And Robert Maxwell was definitely a guy that sort of seemed to not just straddle and tell it different intelligence agencies, but also intelligence and organized crime, which is another big theme of the book.
So looking at Robert Maxwell, by the 19, around the end of the 1980s or so, he went into business with Eastern bloc mobsters in a big way.
People like Simeon Mogilevich, whose name has come up, for example, like when mainstream media talks about Donald Trump and the Russian mob and all of this stuff, it all goes back to Simeon Mogilevich, but they won't acknowledge that he was the business partner of Robert Maxwell.
And you have Donald Trump partying on the lady Ghelane, Robert Maxwell's yacht in the same period in the late 80s and all of this stuff.
So is it really more of the Maxwell mafia or the Russian mafia, right?
There hasn't really been an interest in connecting those dots, right?
And I think it's interesting, too.
look at Donald Trump's reaction to Jeffrey Epstein's arrest.
He wants to distance himself.
I'm not a fan, right?
And then Ghelane Maxwell gets arrested.
I wish her well, he says.
And people like that used to be pretty close to this nexus, like Stephen Hoffenberg, say that Trump was much closer to the Maxwell side than the Epstein side.
From the father's side, Robert.
Yeah, and that it continued, you know, that his affiliation with Epstein and Ghulane after Robert Maxwell's death, talking about Donald Trump, was because that he was closer to Ghelane than Epstein necessarily.
Well, let me ask you this.
How was Trump's relationship with the Murdoch family?
I'm not exactly familiar with that, but because these guys were competitors.
Maxwell and Murdoch were not competitive.
They were competitors, yeah.
But Trump's mentor was Roy Cohn, right?
And so Roy Cohn had a friendly relationship with Murdoch.
Got it.
These guys are going at it.
And this character, Robert Maxwell, could have been like a great, great Gatsby character because he would tell the stories and half the stories.
You don't know if it's real or not, but at that point, you don't have to believe it.
He's been described as like narcissistic, very big on self-promotion, very, you know, he was determined to make himself and his family sort of like the next Kennedys.
He wanted to make a dynasty of power.
That was what he was interested in.
Maxwell.
Robert Maxwell, yeah.
And one of the top FBI special agents in New York, John Patrick O'Neill, you know, went on record saying that Robert Maxwell, before he died, set into motion a global coalition of criminals that he basically made a major successful effort to bring together organized crime factions from around the world into like a global, basically criminal conglomerate at the same time that he has all these intelligence affiliations.
And that's pretty significant, right?
Keep going.
Well, I was just going to say that O'Neill said, you know, if you look into that guy's career specifically, you know, he was sort of head-hunted to be head of the security at the World Trade Center, and he started just days before 9-11.
And he was sort of pushed out of the FBI.
But before he was, he left the FBI and he made these statements to author Gordon Thomas.
He said, I have people looking in, still trying to unravel the Maxwell legacy in New York.
And this is a decade after Robert Maxwell's death.
Wow.
You got to realize this guy was born, you know, Czechoslovakia in Ukraine, right?
And then his parents and his four siblings get killed at a Oshowitz.
I don't know if it was a camp, but they definitely did die.
But they were also pogroms and all sorts of stuff where they lived.
They're believed to have died.
Yeah, they died in the hand that he fought against the Nazis for the British military.
And so then later on, he goes into wanting to compete in media, the whole mirror.
And then, you know, he owned 51% of MTV.
It's kind of weird.
This guy owned 51% of MTV.
Robert.
He owned 51% of MTV.
He was building a massive majority.
Yes, he owned 51%.
This guy's like a 51% of MTV.
And then this is Ghelane Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell.
And then Ghelane is the last child, the ninth.
Yes.
And his favorite after the eldest son is injured in a, no, the eldest son is injured.
I think Michael Maxwell, he dies after being in a vegetative state for several years.
He was the favorite child, then had this awful car accident.
And then Ghelane, who was Ghelane was born around the same time that happened with her older brother.
And so the family basically neglected her for the first couple years of her life.
And she developed a childhood anorexia and stuff and had a lot of problems with feeling even acknowledged by her own family, which obviously is going to have psychological stuff implications for her, obviously.
And then, you know, it doubles back and then she becomes the favorite child.
So, you know, you have that neglect and then you go to being favorite child.
You know, there's a lot of start there.
Nine kids, you're saying?
I think it's seven.
Okay, so all these kids, was it with the same woman and where were they all born?
Do you know what I mean?
Okay, yeah, it was Betty Maxwell is the wife.
And very complicated relationship there because Robert Maxwell was not faithful.
Doesn't seem like the kind of guy who she was very faithful and very devoted.
So, you know, yeah, I feel kind of sad for her, to be honest.
But he was not faithful, but he wanted his children to be sort of like arms of his empire, right?
Yeah.
But two of them are estranged, I believe.
I forget their names.
One went away to Argentina and the other one, he was not very nice to a lot of his kids.
He was known to like verbally abuse Kian and Evan.
Sorry, Kevin and Ian.
And then the daughter that's estranged, he insulted her appearance a lot.
And that might have been a lot of fun.
Is there any doubt in your mind that he was an intelligence asset, Robert Maxwell?
I just started looking into this a couple days ago because it's all her fault.
I mean, I literally just started looking into this.
I'm not the first, though, with Robert Maxwell.
Seymour Hirsch published a book called The Samson Option, why Robert Maxwell was still alive, alleging a relationship with Israeli intelligence.
And in Britain, the libel laws are very strong.
So Robert Maxwell sued over that intelligence claim, and he did not win.
Did not win.
By the way, here's the thing.
So Seymour Hirsch was right.
So we'll just leave that there.
As far as I'm concerned, it's pretty, it's extensively documented the affiliation with Israeli intelligence.
And he names his yacht, the $50 million yacht he buys, Lady Ghillaine.
After his favorite child.
After his favorite child.
But it's a little weird, the relationship between Robert Maxwell and Ghelane.
For example, Ghelane commissions pictures for the Lady Ghillaine, and some of them are a bit racy.
What does that mean?
I don't know.
I mean, father-daughter relationship.
Do you really want like a picture of your daughter with the skirt all the way up here being like, it's weird?
You know, I'm not saying I know anything that happened between them, but I think there was a lot of psychological manipulation.
And, you know, it seems like Robert Maxwell, at least in my opinion, was kind of narcissistic.
A lot of narcissistic parents see no boundaries between them and their children.
They see their children as extensions of them.
He believed that Ghelane was the most sexually attractive and the most like him.
Right.
So, you know, a lack of boundaries can mean a lot of things in that particular context.
Right.
And, you know, as I note in the book, chapter 15 specifically, which is about all this stuff, it seems like he was interested in using her sexuality for his benefit in a PR sort of way.
Like, for example, would publish stories in his own papers of alleged affairs of his daughter with elite people, you know, aristocrats in Britain and stuff like that.
Even though, you know, the British elites that he would name were, you know, denied any sort of a romantic relationship, Robert Maxwell obviously wanted that out there.
And this is the same guy who with Ghelane's, you know, boyfriends when she was in high school, didn't want them near the house, didn't want her to date, you know, was very controlling of her romantic life, but at the same time would publish, you know, basically gossip and smutty gossip in his in his newspapers about her.
I can see most dads not wanting, you know, your teenage daughter around.
But he wanted her to marry a Kennedy.
That's what he wanted.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.
He wanted to be a little bit more than a little bit of a young Ghelane Maxwell.
We all know what she looks like now, but young.
Yeah, and after no one knows how he died.
Suicide, you know, there's a lot of allegations, but let's look at what Ghelane Maxwell says.
Ghelane Maxwell believes that he was murdered by rogue Mossad agents and the Sicilian mafia.
That's what Delane Maxwell thinks happens to her father.
When does she say that?
I think it's quoted in the New York Post somewhere.
I cited in the book.
She says he was murdered because they, you know.
The other children claim not murder, but she thinks she was the person who, according to British journalists, when he died, she was the one that came down out of all the siblings, came to the yacht right after his death, goes on the boat and shreds papers.
So that means out of all the kids, if that's true, out of all the kids, she knew what was incriminating and what was not, where it was, and what to shred.
Yeah, and by the way, when he dies, you know who his yacht goes to?
His yacht goes to Murdoch's third wife.
Oh, interesting.
It is interesting in the story.
That's the part where it's a very, very connection of wanting to compete in media and how this is.
Well, the Murdoch Maxwell stuff was pretty intense, that competition.
Murdoch drove Maxwell insane.
Yeah.
Looks at things.
He apparently was willing to stretch his business empire as far as he could just to try and stick Murdoch in the eye.
And that includes using $460 or $446 million of his employees' retirement plan.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
Did you hear this?
The pension fund for the mirror.
He used his employees' pension fund to finance what he was doing with the media company, $446 million.
And the employees ended up only getting half of it at the end after he died.
Because his sons, I think, Kevin and he didn't leave any, he didn't leave any of his money to Ghelane.
He felt it was appropriate to only leave it to the boys or something like that.
They have trusts in Liechtenstein.
No one knows about it.
And the FBI special agents looking at this stuff in New York.
Ghillain apparently came and made this show wearing like rags and like sobbing, like dirty, being like, I have no money, but they didn't believe her.
And they were trying to find out all these trusts and stuff that, you know, he, he was, what Jeffrey Epstein did with money, Robert Maxwell was even better.
So he, so he.
So who knows really where the money went?
We don't really know.
A lot of the maze of Robert Maxwell's funds, a lot of it is honestly still a mystery.
Then this is where this is where my question goes to.
Who had a bigger influence on how to take Epstein's game to the next level?
Was it Ghillane because what she learned from her father?
Or was it something that Epstein, like, who brought more to the table for the crime that they committed, both of them together?
Was it more Epstein's background or was it more Ghillane's experience?
Well, you mean after Robert Maxwell's death?
Yes.
So I think Ghelane was looking to continue the same role she was sort of doing for her father, which was being an ambassador for her father, basically in New York.
And the interests that represented him, his handlers, sort of looked to her.
And at this time, Jeffrey Epstein is the money manager for Leslie Wexner.
And Leslie Wexner is affiliated with a group of very powerful billionaires who at the same time that Robert Maxwell made his inroads to New York with Ghelane sort of as the ambassador.
Oh, sorry, I lost my train.
Oh, yeah.
They're quoted in, I think, Vanity Fair of having court, those billionaires courting Robert Maxwell specifically.
So it seems like there was some sort of effort to bring those interests together even before Robert Maxwell died.
This name, Les Wexner, if you're not familiar with it, I mean, go ahead and tell.
I mean, this is Victoria's Secret.
This is the guy that basically created the modern-day shopping mall, Abercrombie and Fitch, Victoria's Secret.
Like, reveal a little bit about this guy.
Okay, so, I mean, he's a retail guy.
So, I guess the big brands we're familiar with, yeah, he's the one that backs them, but his rise to power is partly linked to people that built the shopping malls and then leased space to him.
They called him the Merlin of the Mall, something of that capacity.
Yeah, I think that's a nickname for Wexner, yeah.
But people like Edward DeBartolo, I think is how you pronounce it.
DeBartolo.
The DeBartolo family.
They own the 49ers.
I mean, this is all coming together.
Yeah, yeah.
Follow the money, ladies and gentlemen.
Yeah, keep going.
Yeah, and then Alfred Taubman, who was another big shopping, he built a lot of shopping malls.
He's one of the guys that really, he's considered a mentor to Wexner, as is Max Fisher.
And these are guys, really powerful people from Detroit, specifically involved in real estate shopping mall stuff.
Max Fisher also has a background in oil, but also got into a lot of, well, he's the guy that made Taubman, I guess, because Taubman built a lot of, I think, the gas station, like convenience stores for the oil company and then got into retail commercial centers.
The reason I asked about Lex Wexner is because I went down the rabbit hole.
Done multiple interviews with Tim Dylan.
Oh, I love Tim.
I know.
Like, he's someone that we're entitled to.
How do you not love the guy?
He'll be here pretty soon.
But I've watched multiple of your interviews.
I'm a fan of Tim Dillon, you know, multiple connections there.
But you said, quote unquote, Epstein made his money from links to three powerful men.
And you said Les Wexner, you said Bill Gates, and then you said Donald Trump.
That's not from me.
That's a 2001 article from the Evening Standard, which is a mainstream media publication in the UK.
Prestigious, right?
And it's never been retracted.
It's from 2001.
But if you believe U.S. mainstream media, Bill Gates and Epstein didn't meet until 2011.
And this is 2001.
So there's 10 years of.
There's more than 10 years, I think, with Bill Gates and Epstein.
Yeah.
Gotcha.
It's pretty crazy that there's an article like that out there from 2001 and mainstream media is like 2011.
What did that article say?
Well, it's talking.
So that Evening Standard article is talking mainly about Prince Andrew and who are Prince Andrew's new friends.
Oh, it's Ghelane Maxwell because obviously, you know, Robert Maxwell's theft of the pension fund money obviously had huge ramifications in Britain.
A lot of people, for understandable reasons, didn't like the Maxwell family after that.
So a lot of the gossip columns or newspapers would report a lot on what the Maxwell children were doing.
They sort of became infamous celebrity children, you know?
And so they follow up on them.
And then Prince Andrew, you know, circa 2000 or so, is going on vacation after vacation with Ghelane Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein.
And so Jeffrey Epstein is sort of introduced in that article and they're trying to explain to their audience in Britain in 2001 who Epstein is because people probably haven't heard of him.
Yeah, they all know Ghelane.
They all knew Prince Andrew, obviously, but they don't know Jeffrey Epstein.
So the introduction to Jeffrey Epstein is they describe him as a property developer.
And actually a lot of early articles on Epstein don't say billionaire, financial advisor like a lot of the later ones do.
They say property developer.
There's a real estate connection there, which is I sort of explore.
And then in that article, what's the Gates-Trump connection with all of that?
That's what they said.
The line there is that this is where Jeffrey Epstein's money comes from.
These are his clients, his top clients, basically.
And so people know that there was a long-standing Wexner relationship, a long-standing Trump relationship, but it mentions Bill Gates.
And at the time, Bill Gates never challenged that article.
It was never retracted.
Like I mentioned earlier, the UK has very strong libel laws.
If it was untrue, he could sue and it could be retracted today, but it's never been done.
When you're going through this rabbit hole and you're kind of researching people, sometimes you do this in business, you do it in sports, you do it in a lot of different things.
And then all of a sudden you're trying to go here.
Then somebody makes you go here.
You're like, wait, what?
This guy's more interesting than these guys I was researching.
Who did that to you while you're going through the rabbit hole?
And all of a sudden, there's a personality saying this guy could be one of the most powerful guys or influential guys or gals that nobody looked at.
Yeah, that happens to me a lot.
Yeah.
Especially in looking at this web and it really is kind of a web.
So you end up going in different directions.
And really, all those different tangents are worth exploring because sometimes there's very important connections there.
Sure, yeah.
Who?
Anybody?
Well, for example, let's take Leslie Wexner, right?
The DeBartolo family had an affiliation with Wexner, and it's actually mentioned in a police report from Columbus, Ohio that they have organized crime connections.
And it discusses that Leslie Wexner, by extension, has several organized crime connections himself, right?
So, you know, I didn't, that particular police report, you know, has a lot of very interesting information about Leslie Wexner's business connections and his business associates.
But then, you know, if you go beyond that and you look at those names that come up there on their own, you find a lot more information that the organized crime connections are a lot more extensive, for example, than they are in the police report and things like that, or maybe things I've done more recently since that report was written.
You know, it's really worth leaving notes.
You know what's crazy?
Have you ever watched the show It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia ever?
Yeah, but years ago.
Hilarious amazing show.
But to your point, Tyler, pull up this picture I just sent you.
Tell me if you've ever seen this image.
If we could pull it up.
I'm working on it.
But this is what essentially Pat's question reminds me of that you're doing.
That anyone who's ever watched this show is like making a murder documentary, going down the rabbit hole.
This is what comes to mind.
This is where I'm at right now.
Yeah, but some people use this image, right, to be like, oh, everyone that looks at this kind of stuff and claims there's any sort of web or like decentralized power structure with real pull is insane, you know, and it's sort of this claim when you get called a conspiracy theorist, right?
It's sort of this idea that all the stuff we're talking about today, it's just a coincidence.
These people have no agency.
They don't actually, you know, plan to expand their power and wealth behind closed doors.
And I think that's honestly pretty naive.
I saw this comedian yesterday.
You know how somebody sends me this clip?
What an funny African-American wearing a suit.
This thing went viral.
Funny, funny.
I wish I knew the guy's name to give him credit.
If I find it, I'll put it on Instagram for people to see it.
So he says, listen, I understand not believing most conspiracy theories, but you mean to tell me you are willing to believe that all of them are conspiracy theories?
He says, I have a problem with that.
There's no way in the world all conspiracy theories are wrong.
No way.
There has to be some of them that are right.
He says, look, here you have the government that's filled by thousands of powerful people, hundreds of powerful people, and there's 330 million of them, of us, right?
That they're going to lie to us.
He says, look, I got a son.
I love my son.
I love him more than anybody in the world.
And I want him to live an incredible life.
But I got to tell you, he's got one person above him as a father, and it's me.
And I lied to that kid all the time.
That's the one right there.
You send it to me?
Oh, my God.
That was hilarious.
I couldn't stop laughing.
Let's put the link below if people say that.
He says, I lied to my kid all the time.
He says, what makes you think if I, as a parent, lie to my kid all the time?
Government's not lying to us about different conspiracy theories.
He says, you have to be naive to not believe some of these things that could be true.
Fully agree.
But they put the label and then they discredit somebody that's writing and saying what they're saying.
And they take one part of it that you got wrong and automatically they say everything else you said about it.
It's like that Snow's mostly false thing.
And it's like, no, it was mostly true.
Yeah.
But one little false complaint.
But think about today.
If you're saying something that's true, but the government calls it a conspiracy theory, you can lose, if you're someone like me, you can lose your income.
You can be taken off of Patreon.
You can be taken off of Twitter, Facebook, YouTube.
Where did you get taken off?
Any of those things?
I got taken off of Patreon.
Yeah.
Patreon took you off.
What was their reason?
Well, I wrote an article about the affiliations of the creator of the AstraZeneca COVID vaccine and that he was affiliated in speaking to the Galton Institute, which was until 1989, the British Eugenics Society and some of the affiliations of that particular organization.
So anyway, they didn't like that.
I mean, eugenics, we can have a whole conversation about that.
Yeah, yeah.
But I got to tell you, you know, I'm on Pat's show, on our show, I'm sort of the skeptic.
We have 9-11 conspiracy theories, guys.
We've got, obviously, COVID stuff.
We've had priests on that exercise demons, QAnon type stuff.
And I'm very skeptical.
On this, I'm not skeptical at all.
I'm like, okay, question.
I think you're savvy enough to know that a lot of this stuff makes sense when we're talking about the politics of power and you're about follow the money.
Yes.
Exactly.
That's my point is that it's, you know, people want to get political ideology.
This has nothing to do with politics.
But I mean, Democrat becomes just follow the freaking money here.
And think about that with Epstein.
This is a guy that's so infamous.
Everyone in America probably knows his name, but no one knows that he committed financial crimes.
He's a sex trafficker.
That's what we need to do.
He's just a sex trafficker.
He's a financial.
But this is a guy that was involved in one of the biggest Ponzi schemes in U.S. history with Towers Financial, even though he was named as being the mastermind of that during grand jury proceedings.
His name is dropped from the case and he ends up at Bill Clinton fundraisers in 1993.
And then after that, some of the most controversial fundraisers in Bill Clinton's presidential career.
Epstein's there.
And then after Clinton leaves office, he's setting up the Clinton Foundation flying on Epstein's plane around Africa.
He credits Epstein for coming up with his HIV AIDS philanthropy, being involved in creating the Clinton Health Access Initiative.
And a lot of people have sort of argued that the Clinton Foundation is sort of a glorified political slush fund for the Clinton family.
So why do you have a financial criminal helping you set up your foundation after he's involved with the most controversial, actually, fundraisers of your political career after being involved in a major Ponzi scheme, after being a financial bounty hunter involved in the offshore banking complex?
It's complicated stuff.
There's no interest in looking at this stuff except for maybe the Daily Mail.
I'll give you some examples.
So the Daily Beast, around the time that Epstein was arrested the second time, came out and noted that Epstein had attended at least five meetings at the Clinton White House with a guy named Mark Middleton.
Last December, the Daily Mail obtained the full visitor logs.
That number ballooned to 17.
It wasn't covered in the U.S. Shouldn't that matter?
That it goes from five to 17.
You have this guy in less than around two years going to the White House 17 times.
And he's not just meeting with Mark Middleton.
His first meeting was Robert Ruhman, former head of Goldman Sachs, who, by the way, Goldman Sachs was accused of being a major accessory to Robert Maxwell's financial crimes, including the stuff with the pension funds and all of that, were involved in all of this crazy stuff.
So the guy that is part, you know, running basically the bank that Robert Maxwell is very much tied to, Robert Maxwell dies, and the first guy to bring Jeffrey Epstein into the White House is that banker.
So go to the Clintons.
Go to the Clintons.
You were talking about everything with the Clintons.
Why do so many people, when it comes down to Clintons, get suicided?
You know, we hear these.
I don't have an answer for that, but I mean, I can give you my opinion.
Yeah, that's what I want to hear.
We hear these stories.
And then, you know, I want to ask you whether you feel Trump has any kind of involvement with Epstein, not in regards to business, but with women, because I have my own theory there as well.
But let's start off with the Clintons first.
Okay, so the Clinton stuff is really complicated.
And even I, like with the book, you know, I sort of saved some of that stuff for last.
And it probably should be its own book because this Mark Middleton guy, most of his meetings were with Mark Middleton.
You have these visitor logs came out right last December.
It's 17 visits.
It's much more than five with Mark Middleton.
And then just a few months later, Mark Middleton dies in Little Rock, Arkansas.
He was allegedly found hanging by the neck with an extension cord around his neck and a shotgun wound to the chest.
And it was labeled a suicide.
A local court in Arcus, Arkansas said that no media front taken at the scene, photos, videos, anything is allowed to be released to the public.
Huh, what?
He was hanging.
Supposedly.
This is again from the Daily Mail citing local law enforcement that, you know, it's very crazy.
I mean, listen, if you can commit suicide by hanging yourself and shooting yourself with a shotgun in the chest, you're a magician is what you are.
I mean, you're in a league of your own.
And so this is right after it comes out that he's, you know, meeting the guy that met with Epstein a bunch of the Clinton White House.
But it's even crazier than that because once you start looking into who Mark Middleton was at the White House, it gets crazy really fast.
I'll give you an example.
George W. Bush comes into office.
Are you familiar with the first time Bush invoked executive privilege?
Among other things, I think there were three things in the particular document that was, you know, that invocation.
But one of those three was all documents about Mark Middleton not going to Congress, which was investigating Mark Middleton.
Why did Bush step in to protect a aid to the chief of staff of the White House for Clinton, who's normally, you know, he's not a big fish, right?
Yeah, what was it?
Why is Bush stepping in for that?
What's your theory?
Well, if you look into why Mark Middleton was infamous at that time and why he was being investigated, it's remembered really only by U.S. conservatives today, and they refer to it as China Gate, which is kind of a largely forgotten political scandal.
It's insane once you get into it.
I personally think China Gate.
I think China Gate's kind of a missnover.
You do have China involved, but really it's the same, it's some of the families that backed Bill Clinton when he was governor of Arkansas, the Rioti family, Jackson Stevens, these types of figures.
When Bill Clinton becomes president, they have a lot of interest in China stuff.
And mainly it looks sort of like a lot of tech transfer stuff to China.
And so conservatives at the time said it was basically the Clintons selling out U.S. national security on a major scale to the Chinese government, or mainly to firms that were state-backed and tied up with the Chinese military.
And Mark Middleton was one of the guys at the center of this.
And Epstein's meeting with him at the same time that China Gate's active.
And oddly enough, in the same period of time, and I mean, this is why it's so crazy.
Jeffrey Epstein, on behalf of Leslie Wexner, is involved in moving an airline called Southern Air Transport from Miami, Florida to Columbus, Ohio to run cargo for the Limited.
And sorry, I got away from the microphone.
And that's the airline that used to be Air America, the CIA airline.
Southern Air Transport was involved in the Iran-Contra stuff, moving stuff, the MENA, Arkansas, Barry Seal, the cocaine stuff, all of that was Southern Air Transport.
And then just a few years later, it becomes the airline of the Limited, and it's not going from Miami to Latin America anymore.
It's going from Columbus, Ohio, involved with Epstein and Wexner.
It's going to Hong Kong.
And this is the guy at the same period of time, he's meeting with the China Gate guy.
I mean, there's a lot of really crazy stuff here.
And honestly, it would take the whole podcast to unravel it all.
I've tried to do my best in the book, but there's really a lot more there.
And it's very crazy.
And the other guy at the center of this was Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, who agreed to cooperate with an investigation into a lot of this stuff.
And then he ends up dead in a plane crash that kills a bunch of people in the Commerce Department that are at the exact part of Commerce ITA at the Commerce Department, who were that was basically the department most targeted by this particular group for China Gate.
Is this the one where 34 people died and they said there was a radar failure and then the next day the radar failure guy was killed or he had a he had a yeah, he was shot in the chest and it was ruled a suicide.
It was in Croatia.
Ron Brown, after he agreed to investigate, was told he needed to go on an urgent trade mission to Croatia and that's when the crash happens.
And I think actually Maxine Waters at the time requested there be further investigation because he was found with an odd wound in his head that was consistent with a gunshot wound and the x-rays disappeared and a lot of crazy stuff.
Maxine Waters wanted it to be investigated?
Yeah, well, actually, like when Gary Webb wrote, you know, Dark Alliance and all this stuff, she also called for there to be investigation, but that doesn't mean it went anywhere.
You know, Maxine Waters, Congresswoman.
Well, I think she was a bit different in the 90s than she is now.
Yeah.
No question.
Let me just bring this down to earth for a second because obviously we can go the whole Charlie Day.
Yeah, but the Clinton stuff's really crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, all these theories and the stuff that we're hearing, and we had a whole conversation about distrust of the media, you know, the stories about politics and Clintons and the media and the lies and the money and not trusting what you're seeing, not taking things at face value.
How should the average person, I'm just a normal American, I'm just a normal citizen paying my bills, got my family.
How should they process just the news, in your opinion?
You mean like mainstream media news?
Yeah, just, you know, living my life.
I'm just hearing, you know, doing what I'm doing.
I think mainstream media has evolved a lot over the past few decades, right?
I think, you know, I've been out of the U.S.
This is my first time back in the U.S. in like eight years.
My parents, I was at their house a few days ago.
They watch the evening news all the time, like ABC.
And when they're talking about a government story, they just cite the government sources and that's all they say.
They don't, you know, look to see if it's true.
They don't do any sort of watchdog stuff.
They're just telling you what the official story is about really anything.
And, you know, to me, that's being more of a stenographer than being a journalist.
I don't want to be a normal person right now.
I want to be an abnormal person and go back to Clinton.
So let's go back to Clinton.
Okay, so we did Middleton.
We did Ron Brown.
Who else?
When you see the link to these guys, Esther, you got a few of these guys that you can.
I mean, it's just, it's so nuts.
I mean, I would encourage people to read this part of the book because there's so much detail.
It's so convoluted and insane when you get into the stuff about this.
And even the congressional reports that were done about China Gate, I mean, it's totally insane what happened.
It's very like illegal.
And there was a focus on the illegal campaign donations, but it was basically like pay-for-play politics.
But it was pay-for-play politics where these illegal campaign donations were being obtained from non-U.S. citizens.
And it was basically buying influence of the Commerce Department that seems to have been signing off on basically tech transfers of sensitive like military and other types of technology to our ostensible adversary when it wasn't supposed to be sent over there.
And also stuff about China's trading status, like most favored nation trading status, because Clinton campaigned on playing hardball with the Chinese about that stuff and he totally reversed, right?
And a lot of this is because of this one family that backed his political career going way back named the Riyadhs that are actually Indonesian, but they're ethnic Chinese and they have a lot of business interests.
And all of Southeast Asia, they're very big.
They're called the Lippo Group.
And the Lipo Group and Jackson Stevens, these guys have a relationship with BCCI that we talked about earlier back in the 1980s and actually tried to save the BCCI Hong Kong branch before its collapse.
And that's when they went into business with some of these Chinese government-owned firms.
And that's where ChinaGate really starts.
And it gets really crazy from there on out.
But talking, even not talking about China Gate anymore, you look at the first time Epstein went to a Clinton fundraiser.
It was supposed to be for the White House Historical Association, nominally a fundraiser so Hillary Clinton could redecorate parts of the White House.
I don't even, I feel crazy talking about it just because it's so insane.
But this fundraiser Epstein was involved in, he was one of the donors to that.
You also have one of the guys instrumental in BCCI stuff, like Clark Clifford, who was in the Carter administration and played a major role in BCCI's entry into the U.S. financial system.
And then you have a guy named C. Gerald Goldsmith, who tried to run for mayor of Palm Beach once, who has a bunch of ties to offshore banking complex organized crime.
I mean, a lot of the guys, not everyone, obviously, but some of the guys that attended this fundraiser are financial guys like that, right?
And this fundraiser ends up in Vince Foster's suicide note.
Are you familiar with Vince Foster?
Yeah, of course.
He was White House counsel.
Mr. Clinton.
Yeah, and he died.
And there's a lot of speculation about what really happened there.
Because, you know, he supposedly shot himself in the mouth, but there's no blood at the scene.
Right.
And the autopsy report said it was a mouth to neck wound.
And then they changed it.
You know, on some pages it says that.
On some pages, it says like, you know, it was a regular gunshot wound.
And then the people that were at the scene are advised about the autopsy late.
And they show up and all the part of the mouth and neck, the palate, all this stuff is just taken out of Vince Foster so they can't look at it.
There's a lot of weird stuff going on there.
I mean, I know, you know, the specifics about the death in the book and why people. suspect something, but it's pretty much a matter of record that when police went into Vince Foster's office after his body was found, there was nothing in his briefcase.
And then somehow like 36, I think hours later, the White House claims there was a suicide note that Vince Foster left.
And it was apparently Hillary Clinton's office that was responsible for finding that suicide note after this extensive delay.
And the only mention of Hillary Clinton in that suicide note is related to this White House Historical Association fundraiser.
So these crazy stories about the Clintons and all these, they've done this and suicide.
It's like, well, there's smoke, there's fire kind of a thing.
Oh, yeah.
There's credibility here.
I got a question about that that we were kind of talking about yesterday.
Remember how you were saying Deutsche Bank?
We were talking Deutsche Bank yesterday.
You can't hear Deutsche Bank about Estee Salas, Esther Salas, what happened with her as a judge and her son.
So I haven't followed up since the shooting happened, to be honest.
So I'm not actually sure how that case has advanced or not, but I know that the case was about to be heard.
Esther Salas was the judge overseeing the case related to Deutsche Bank's relationship with Epstein and how despite staff red flagging lots of stuff that he was involved with, nothing happened to him at that particular bank.
And there was a shooting at her home.
Her teenage son was murdered.
And really, if you think about it, since Epstein's second arrest and the case became infamous, that's the only innocent person to die.
And that's related to Epstein's finances.
This is, again, why I say the financial crimes, there's a reason this stuff is underreported.
But the part of the story that I want to bring back to Clintons and some of these other guys is the following.
So guy shows up as a delivery man, shoots the son, wounds the husband, son dies while this whole thing is going on with Epstein and Deutsche Bank.
And then the shooter the next day, or no, not the next day, the same day, is found in a car with a dead with a bullet wound, and he killed himself right after he killed the bank.
That's the narrative.
So, you know, some people have speculated, is it even the guy that did the shooting or was it just pinned on him?
Or, you know, who knows?
And if you look into the guy who is the alleged shooter, he previously worked for a group called Kroll Associates, which is known as the CIA of Wall Street.
They did security on World Trade Center during 9-11.
They also investigated many scandals of this particular group I write about in the books and then found no wrongdoing, even if they acknowledge wrongdoing.
In the bulk of the report, their summary is everything's fine.
You know, they investigated people like Ednan Khashoggi and Imelda Marcos for all those financial things.
I think Covenant House, lots of stuff.
Robert Maxwell hired them right before his death.
Very interesting firm to say the least.
And actually, French intelligence alleged a few times that they were an actual front for the CIA Kroll Associates.
But if you look at who's made up a lot of their staff historically in terms of intelligence connections, it seems to come mostly from either U.S. or Israeli intelligence at Kroll Association.
How many murders are linked back to Clinton's?
What's the number?
Oh, I have no idea, but I'm sure people, like all sorts of stuff to them.
And I think, you know, there are some that we could link.
And then there are some that maybe are a little more speculative, depending on who's making the list, right?
Here's my question.
You know, I'm going to be the skeptic here.
And my question is the following.
So if somebody does things like this, you know, like RFK, when I asked him about the murder of his father, Robert Kennedy, he went out.
He wrote a book about it on what they did to him and his uncle, right?
I mean, if something like that happens to you that closely to you, you're probably going to spend the rest of your life wanting to find out what happened to get to the bottom of it, right?
Okay.
Are most people going to want to seek vengeance?
I don't know.
Of course, most will not.
Most are going to be like, oh, you know, I'm going to do something and they're not going to do anything about it.
And life kind of goes on.
You know, in most tragic events that happen, people generally move on a couple years later and life kind of happens.
You're worried about, well, it's going to affect the other kids, this, this, that.
So I'm not going to do anything about it.
But if you've ever seen that one movie when Gerard Butler, what's the movie's name?
We were talking about it yesterday.
Citizen?
Law-Abiding Citizen, where somebody kills his daughter and his wife and he goes and buys the building next to the prison and goes and finds the person that killed his wife and his daughter and he seeks vengeance, right?
If something like this has happened with Epstein or with, you know, Clintons, why hasn't anybody done something about it?
Whether it's a lawyer, whether it's people have tried.
I just think we don't hear about them.
Take, for example, Mina, Arkansas.
You know, we talked about earlier, Southern Transport, Barry Seale, the cocaine, the Contra stuff that was going on.
There were some kids that ended up dead near there under suspicious circumstances.
And the mother of one of those boys, I feel really bad.
I can't remember her name because she's suffered so much and worked so hard to try and find out what was going on there.
Just decades trying to get to the bottom of it and trying to find out who killed her son.
What was this city in Arkansas?
Well, this is Mina, Arkansas, so M-E-N-A we're talking about.
But I think the exact location where they either lived or were found is a different city right next to it.
Crazy?
Tying all this together.
Remember when we sat down with the drug trafficker for Pablo Escobar?
What was his name?
Roger Reeves?
Didn't he talk about Barry Seale and Mina, Arkansas?
Wasn't that a theme with the Escobar and the drug running?
Wasn't that a thing?
There was a lot of drug running.
Is that accurate?
Yes.
What the?
Well, it's well, here's basically what happened.
I mean, this is sort of like a very simplified summary of major aspects of Iran Contra, which is, you know, of course, it's very complex.
But basically, you know, Bill Casey, a CIA director, was told by Congress you can only send humanitarian aid to the Contras.
He had set up this major military support apparatus for the Contras in Nicaragua.
And he was like, well, you know, how do I get around this?
How do I get around Congress so I can finance whatever covert operation I want without Congress having to fund me?
You know, how do I undermine them basically?
You know, so I can keep doing what I want, what I think is best, and screw what Congress thinks or screw what the president thinks, even.
Right.
And how do you finance that?
You know, it gets complicated.
It seems like some of the stuff they went towards was stuff like arms trafficking, drug trafficking.
Maybe there's allegations of human trafficking, but who really knows, right?
I have a hard time like somebody not making this their life mission to be a lot of times.
Like you ask Rudy Giuliani, why'd you become a lawyer?
Well, because who his dad was, what his dad did, what his family was linked to, how he was around the mob, how he could have been in the mob.
And he chose to be a lawyer.
One of my good friends became a cop in L.A. His brother was a criminal.
And these are kids we went to high school with.
And he says, listen, he told his brother one day in front of everybody.
He's the younger brother.
He says, I'm going to become a cop.
And I swear to God, if I find you in the streets, I'm going to put your ass in jail.
And I love you.
So he became a cop because his older brother was a criminal and he was in and out of jail.
He was sick of seeing what he was doing to his mother.
So the younger brother took the pain of mom crying every single night because the older brother being a criminal, he said, I'm going to be a cop.
Till today, he's 44 years old.
He's a cop.
There has to be, if these stories are true and they're emotionally connected to the kid, or someone's going to be a lawyer.
Someone's going to say, I'm going to dedicate my life to this.
Look at Hunter Moore.
Hunter Moore is the Revenge porn guy.
I don't know if you followed this guy's story.
His Netflix documentary came out.
The most hated man on the internet.
The most hated man on the internet.
If you don't know this guy, he would get boyfriends that would send the nude photos of their girlfriends, exes, and he would put it on a website.
He was making a bunch of money on this website.
And eventually, a bunch of people are begging him to take their pictures down.
I'm not taking your pictures down.
Your ex gave it to you.
Good for you.
LOL, you can't do shit.
Wait till you see I can get more pictures from your ex about you and all this stuff.
He eventually gets caught, goes to jail, right?
And Anderson Cooper's interview on this guy 11 years ago.
Do you feel guilty about it?
Not really.
You know what eventually happens?
A mother, okay, named Charlotte Laws found her daughter's nude picture under his website, asked him to take it down.
He never took it down.
She's the reason he went to jail.
One mother dedicated her life to take this guy down, and she won.
So if all of these stories are true about the Clintons, if all of these stories are true about the Epsteins, if all these stories are true and families are connected, suicides, people love those people.
Kids love their dad, their mom.
Someone's got to do something about it.
How come nobody has?
Well, in the case of the person you're talking about, did the guy running that website have major intelligence connections?
Did he have major connections to some of the wealthiest, most powerful people on Wall Street?
Probably not.
Probably not, right?
So, you know, it really depends on who you're going up against.
I don't know about that.
I think if something like that happened, a kid would dedicate their lives to politics, office, being a billionaire, being an influential person.
But again, I think it depends on the kid.
Take it like Ron Brown's son.
Ron Brown's son went into politics and was just like his dad, sort of, because Ron Brown was pretty corrupt.
You know, he did end up getting killed because he agreed to cooperate, but only because, you know, he was at the end of, they had a lot of stuff on him, right?
Who's Ron Brown's son?
I think he's Ron Brown Jr.
I can't remember, but he ended up being a corrupt politician even after what happened to his father.
And I think, I can't remember exactly.
I think it was a much smaller, he wasn't national politics.
It was either like city or state or something, but he ended up getting caught for some, I don't know if it was bribery, but something along that.
The specifics, I don't remember, but he just kind of went to the same business his dad was in.
And maybe he was like, well, you know, maybe something happened to my dad, but, you know, I saw how my dad was before and he made a lot of money and I want to make a lot of money.
Let me ask you this.
Let me ask you a question.
Let's just say you are, I'm going to come to you.
You are the daughter of any of these guys, okay, that were suicided.
Okay.
Hypothetically, we were suicidal.
But I would fight, but I don't know if everyone's like me.
You know what I mean?
Some people are like.
But what would you do?
Let's just say, I want to use you.
What would you do?
Say you're one of those people.
It's not like you're going to go be a UFC fighter, find these guys in the streets and fight them.
No, sure.
How would you go about doing it?
You're a 22-year-old daughter of one of these guys at the Clintons, Epstein's, they did something to him.
Or you're the sister of one of the girls that Epstein picked up and he put on this island or the house.
What would you do?
I would try and get people on media to tell my story, right?
But what if the media won't touch the story that you're trying to get out there?
Will they have you on?
Maybe, but not a big podcast.
And will the beggar podcast pick it up?
I don't know.
I think it depends.
Again, you know, why did mainstream media not want to cover the fact that Epstein went to the White House with Clinton 17 times?
Why did they not cover the fact that, you know, last December, the picture finally came out of Bill Clinton and Jeffrey Epstein shaking hands in 1993, but they claimed for, you know, a couple years that they didn't meet until after Clinton was out of office and wasn't president anymore.
Why will they not look into the fact that Bill Gates says, oh, we only met for the first time in 2011, but there's documentation that they knew each other at least a decade prior, if not longer.
You know, there, you know, I think there are people who will try and fight, but sometimes, you know, what if someone does try and go on a podcast and then they get a knock at the door and it's like, you can't talk to people anymore unless you want what happened to your father to happen to you or something.
So you would eventually be silenced as well.
Well, I don't know, but I think, oh, you mean about my work?
I'm not saying you.
No, I'm saying you're the daughter.
You're the sister of somebody.
I think some people, what if they try and do something and they get threatened?
Okay, so it happens to you, happens to you.
Audience, if you're listening, happens to you, comment into this.
What do you do?
Some happens to you.
Okay.
Somebody did this to your mom.
Okay.
Somebody did this to you.
What would your long-term plan be?
I'm asking a very serious question here.
I'm glad you used the word long-term because I think short-term, everyone's going to be filled with anger and vengeance.
You're not going to get to them short term.
This has to be a long-term plan.
Exactly.
And it's got to be through career, law, politics, business.
What would you do?
You're going to have to dedicate your life to revenge, is what it comes down.
You're like Batman at that point, right?
Short term, everyone's going to be angry and upset and want to get vengeance.
But Batman has the resources, right?
He's Bruce Wayne.
He's super rich.
He's got all this technology.
He's got this big company behind him.
What if you're just a regular person?
What kind of resources do you have?
What if no one wants to have you on their podcast?
What if you can't get anyone to tell your story?
Yeah, as emotional and as distraught and as revenge-stricken as you are, at some point, most people are most people are just like, fuck it, it's not worth it.
And they give up.
But I mean, think about Esther Salas, who we talked about a little bit more.
Her son's killed.
Her husband's almost killed.
How are you going to rule in that case?
As a judge.
As a judge.
What are you going to do?
They've already taken the most important thing from you.
But what's the purpose of life at that point, though?
You know, what is the, you know, at that point of the game, like, you know.
I think what they're trying to say is don't fuck with the mob.
Yeah, I don't know about that.
No, no, I think there are certain people that don't roll that way.
I think there are certain people.
I think there are certain people, but is that everyone?
I don't think it's everyone.
I think there's some people, maybe like you, like me, like you, that would fight and do everything, but I don't know if that's everyone.
You know what I mean?
Some people, you know, just want to be left alone.
But Pat Warren.
We all watch the man on fire.
That's kind of what this reminds me of.
I don't remember the exact premise of that, but it wasn't.
I'm actually not going that direction.
I'm actually not going that direction to seek vengeance to kill.
Because in that situation, he didn't kill the brother.
You know, the devil.
He didn't kill the brother.
He shot the brother's hand and then he gave up his own life in exchange for Dakota fanning, right?
Because Greasy was Denzel and he gave the exchange to find out if she's alive, go ask him where she calls her teddy bear.
Hey, what do you call the teddy bear?
I call the teddy bear greasy.
She calls the teddy bear greasy.
Boom.
That's the point of the story changes, right?
Infliction point where you're like, oh my God, she's alive.
Okay, what do you want?
I want your life.
But I don't know.
Like, all I'm thinking about is if all this stuff is true and it doesn't become, by the way, not all of it needs to be true.
If 20% of it is true, with all these personalities we hear about suicide and killing, I don't need 100% of it to be true.
I need 10% to be true.
I need 20% to be true.
And they're not held accountable for it.
So if this is all about the Clintons, right?
Let's keep in mind a lot of people that are on this, you know, alleged suicided list are people that work with the Clintons and also were involved in allegedly a lot of shady stuff.
So is there, you know, an element of dirt to that as well?
You know, you see what I'm saying?
Like, let's see, someone like Vince Foster, right?
Allegedly, Vince Foster's sister.
There was like some money exchange and stuff before his death.
And like, maybe what if the family, the broader family, is sort of tied up in this stuff too?
Do you think they're going to fight if someone gets killed that's close to them?
If they're also sort of involved in this shady world, that's not everybody, though.
No, no, it's not.
I agree that it's not everybody, but you know, you're talking about the Clintons.
It's not like everyone that's on that suicided list is like equally innocent as others, you know?
So it gets really complicated and convoluted.
But again, I don't think, you know, unfortunately, you know, I didn't do a lot of research into their families and what they've done since then.
I do know that like there's that mom from the kid that was killed near Mina, Arkansas that's been fighting for since the 80s.
Yeah.
Really?
And there are some people like that, but is everyone on that on that list going to be like that?
You know, it's hard.
It's hard to know.
And it's hard to know in this case, too.
I mean, you take someone like Jeffrey Epstein being suicided.
There's his brother, but his brother seems to have been involved in a lot of this stuff.
And maybe he just doesn't want to get axed by the same person that might have axed his brother.
What do you think it would take to get Jelaine to speak and actually speak, speak?
What do you think it would take?
I don't think it'll happen.
But would you, all the money in the world wouldn't do it?
No, I don't think it would have to be money.
I think there would have to be mass disclosure of what was actually going on.
And then maybe she'd talk about it, but she won't be the first to talk about it.
No way.
She's in a very vulnerable situation.
She got moved sort of like to a country club prison, probably because she agreed to not talk, right?
Yeah.
So you think she's done done?
She'll never talk.
You will not get anything out of it.
No, no way.
No way.
Don't you think her talking helps her set herself free if she does talk?
Because it's now out in the open?
I don't think it is all out in the open, though.
No, if she does, though.
If she does actually go out there and say...
I don't know.
It's hard to know.
She thinks her father was murdered.
She thinks Jeffrey Epstein was probably murdered.
So, I mean, I don't know.
At this point, again, what's the purpose of living?
So why not talk and open it?
You'd have to ask her.
I mean, she thinks maybe she thinks she'll get another couple years ago.
I know you guys are in touch with her.
Not exactly.
See what she's.
So now let's go to the Trump situation.
So you openly talk a lot about Trump.
It's not like you're holding back because you're not a Republican.
You're not a Democrat.
I don't even think politically I want to put you anything.
You're just objective about everything.
What do you think Trump's involvement is with this?
Well, I definitely think, you know, mainstream media likes to focus on either Epstein Trump or Epstein-Clinton.
I think the Epstein-Clinton relationship is far more damaging than the Epstein-Trump relationship.
I think the Epstein-Trump relationship was mainly a social one.
I don't really, you know, the Clinton stuff is, I mean, we just kind of got into that and it's pretty wild, right?
The Epstein-Trump stuff doesn't seem to be that crazy in comparison.
I agree.
But you have to keep in mind, too, like, I think a lot of people, whether you love him or you hate him, you end up sort of coming at his background and who he is from sort of a biased standpoint if you're on one of those two polarized extremes that we have today in the United States, right?
Regarding Trump, we're saying.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
So as I see it, you know, I wrote a lot about his mentor, Roy Cohn, and that kind of world.
And that's the person who supposedly taught him, you know, the art of the deal.
And we talked a little bit earlier about this favor bank system, unsavory alliances.
You're working in real estate, the, you know, cement, concrete, it's mob-dominated companies.
You got to, you know, make unsavory alliances to make your business work.
And, you know, this is a guy, you know, Trump is a guy that inherited a real estate empire already there.
He obviously wants it to succeed.
So he's going to continue that same system, right?
And he's going to continue making those same alliances and do what he can to be a businessman and do what in his mind is be successful, right?
So I think that's sort of how you get, you know, the Trump we have today.
But then again, you have Trump have a major bankruptcy in the early 90s.
The bank that rescues him is Rothschild Inc., which is the Wall Street branch of the European banking family.
And that particular bank was also very close to Robert Maxwell.
It was also very close to a guy named Sir James Goldsmith.
That's also one of these corporate raiders from this period of time in the 80s.
And actually, Jeffrey Epstein had a relationship with him, Goldsmith, as early as like 1973, 1971, somewhere in that ballpark.
So that connection goes very far back, actually.
But Rothschild Inc., the guy that was in charge of it was Robert Peary, I believe his name is.
And so Robert Peary decided to specifically recruit sometime in the 1980s Maxwell and Goldsmith, and I think another associate of Maxwell.
And this is coming from the New York Times, by the way, to sort of help them grow their mergers and acquisitions business.
The Rothschild family sort of saw Rothschild Inc. as sort of a neglected branch of their banking, you know, empire, thank you.
And they wanted, they tasked this Robert Peary guy with sort of growing it and developing it.
And so he brought in Maxwell and these guys, right?
And so this is one of the banks that's responsible for Robert Maxwell's deal with Macmillan, for example.
And Macmillan is believed to really be the way that Robert Maxwell got his foot first in the door in New York City specifically because of their interests there, Macmillan's interests there.
And so then you have that same bank that's very tied up with Robert Maxwell and these characters rescue Trump from bankruptcy.
So if you're watching this, rescue Trump from bankruptcy.
By the way, if you're watching this, if you think this message needs to be heard by others, give it a thumbs up and share with others because that's going to help with the algorithms.
If you think this is a message, and we're going to give the links to her book as well at the end.
But you know why I don't believe he has any single link and the media would love to find something with him and Epstein?
Because if you did, you would have never done this.
On the debate stage, Trump pulls out a stunt and brings out, you know, the ladies that he brought up.
I'm sure you remember this when he brought Apollo Jones and Kathleen Wiley and Juanita Broderick.
There's no way you do that if you have any link to Epstein.
Because this is, if you do this, 100 times more of this is coming back to you.
Totally.
Well, like I mentioned earlier, the Epstein-Clinton relationship, far more damaging than the Epstein-Trump relationship.
So if it's Trump versus Clinton, you know, who's going to want to bring up Epstein first?
Really, neither of them, I think.
Because again, this unsavory alliance system, it looks like Trump sort of did that to an extent, you know, with Epstein.
But like I sort of touched on earlier, it seems like he was closer to the Maxwell orbit of stuff, right?
And that may be because of this bank.
That may be because he was on the Lady Ghulane and had sort of these, the stuff with, you know, allegedly with Simeon Mogilevich or Robert Maxwell business partner and organized crime guy and all this stuff.
But again, unsavory alliances, you know, you have in order to be on top in that dog-eat-dog world, you know, where Trump inhabits, right, in New York City, you know, maybe you have to do some things that aren't so nice, right?
It's a challenging thing because once you come into fame and money, you get invited to parties.
And you don't know what party you're going because typically here's how the party invitation sounds like.
The party invitation goes and says, there's going to be a lot of who's who's at this yacht party.
It's a Monaco-style yacht party.
It's a party being hosted at XYZ's house.
And you're like, okay, cool.
I'll go to the party.
But then you go to the party.
And the next thing you know, pictures are being taken.
And then afterwards, hey, such and such was at this person's part.
Dude, I just got an invite.
I don't know anybody at this point.
It's hard to know, but you got to follow the money, right?
That's a different story.
Following the money is a different story.
Once you do business with somebody, that's a different story than you're invited to a party.
But sometimes, like there's even a picture with Jelaine Maxwell, Elon Musk.
So, hey, look at the picture here.
And I don't know if you've seen this one or not.
Sure, sure.
It's from 2014, I believe.
Yeah, so he's at a party.
Well, she took pictures with a lot of people, even like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. took pictures with her, but they're, as far as I understand, not really affiliated at all.
So, I mean, she was a social butterfly.
She was very much in these elite New York social circles.
And, you know, that was really what she did.
She was an influencer, right?
And, you know, there are times when she used that to advance, you know, these this particular side of things that we're talking about, the shadier stuff, but some of it may have just been social.
Again, it's really hard to know.
But, you know, if you look like I did at some of these articles that came out in mainstream media before Epstein was infamous, even arrested the first time, I mean, it's pretty clear that people in those social circles knew something was weird with Delaney Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein.
There's talk, and I think it's a 2003 article from UK Media talking about how Ghelene Maxwell, there were rumors that she would take young blonde girls and train them in sex techniques and how to use whips and stuff.
Who would do this?
Delane Maxwell.
This is in like mainstream media before he was even first arrested.
If that's trickling into mainstream media reports, far back then, somebody knew and someone was trying to say something, but, you know, didn't really do much, I guess.
I have a question before I want to stay.
I want you to stay on Trump and all this, but because I'm shifting gears a little bit, but, you know, these days, Kanye's in the news for a lot of anti-Semitic comments.
Sure.
And, you know, I'm Jewish.
So I, you know, you know, anti-Semitism.
What?
Hold on.
And then it's like, I am actually hearing what he's saying.
And he's kind of just emphasizing his point about what's happening in black America.
And it's not so much against Jews.
And he had a very, you know, interesting dialogue with Lex Friedman, who's a very intellectual podcaster, if you've ever heard of him.
Very smart guy, very stoic and very rational.
But he kind of, some of the things he was saying about Jews almost triggered Lex to start cursing and get emotional.
But my question stems from the point that they got at is he's like, Jews didn't screw you, Kanye.
Individuals did.
When you start calling out groups of people and not individuals, that will breed to hate.
When you start calling out individuals, you know, you can kind of work on the problem.
But so as a Jew, I'm kind of grappling with that.
Well, here's my question is this, though, that you hear Rothschild's Jewish banking family, Epstein.
Sure.
Jewish.
Jelaine Maxwell, her family, Jewish.
Okay.
Right.
Would you, you know, here's the thing.
If you're talking about Israeli intelligence, do you think I'm talking about all Jewish people?
If I'm talking about the CIA, do you think I'm talking about all Americans?
Exactly.
If I'm talking about Italian mobsters, do you think I'm talking about all Italian people, Jewish mobsters, all Jewish people?
There's a conflation here.
And I think there are some people who use that to their advantage.
Maybe before Epstein was arrested the first time, if you were to go talk about Leslie Wexner organized crime allegations, allegations that he was involved with the murder of his tax attorney in 1985, you could have been called an anti-Semite by some people.
But again, I don't think that's fair because then you're conflating someone involved in criminal activity with all Jewish people.
I mean, if you're going to say that someone that's involved with organized crime and conducts, you know, is involved in criminal activity is the same as all Jewish people, wouldn't that be more anti-Semitic?
You're saying all Jewish people do that kind of stuff?
I mean, you know, I think it's complicated when you get to that level of stuff.
And I think the ADL, to a big extent, does that.
And if you look at their funding, historically, you have people like the Bronfmans.
I think Wexner's involved to an extent.
I think he works with some other groups, though, but some of these other groups that do make those allegations, you talk about powerful billionaires that may have been involved in criminal activity.
And like, oh, you're looking into that.
You're an anti-Semite.
I mean, some of those groups are funded by these billionaires.
Yeah, and that's ultimately what I'm saying.
And they're using it as protection for themselves to the detriment of the broader Jewish community.
Correct.
And you look at someone like Leslie Wexner, he's a major funder of North American Jewish leadership, right?
But he's a guy allegedly tied to organized crime.
And he's made very controversial comments about his spiritual persuasion, right?
And so this is a guy that has been directing, you know, Jewish American religious life for a very long time and also very influential with Israeli government people through the Wexner Israel Fellows program since the late 1980s.
You know, and the Bronfman family is a major, major one.
Yeah, yeah.
actually came out of this mega group that was created by Leslie Wexner and I believe Charles Bromfman in 1991 and it was Steinhardt and Bromfman that got together and created Birthright Israel and Michael Steinhardt is someone who's a he's very open about being an atheist and thinks that Jewish people should replace their faith with you know basically worship of the state of Israel and stuff so you know it's very complicated so you know once you get into that kind of money and power and stuff, it does become complicated.
And I think we should be able to talk about that stuff because if we can't, that's not good, right?
People need to be held accountable if they're involved in organized crime and any stuff.
It doesn't matter what ethnic group you're a part of or what religious group you're a part of.
We're all equal, right?
Or at least we're supposed to be.
So you should be equally accountable.
Well, I'll respect you for doing what you're doing because what you're doing requires a lot of risk.
And you've openly talked about being a mother.
I'm glad last night you got eight hours of sleep.
Yeah, not quite.
I'm a 10-month-old.
I know you told me.
Today's Energy by Whitney is sponsored by Coffee.
Yeah.
Two cups of coffee today.
But to wrap it up here for yourself, your profession, you could write about a lot of different things.
That's not as risky as this.
You're writing about something, a topic that's very, very risky.
How's your husband feel about you doing this?
Does he sit there and say, babe, we got two kids?
What are you doing?
He and I do the same stuff.
He's in the same business as well.
So he's all for it.
He's like, you guys are true believers and this is what you're committing to for the rest of your life.
We have to fight for a better world.
Yeah.
We have to fight for a better world for our kids.
What concerns you long term?
Oh, man.
I mean, there's a lot of stuff right now that really freaks me out, I guess I would say, especially in the U.S.
This war on domestic terror stuff is very concerning when you have the president of the United States giving a major speech and basically labeling a large segment of the country potential domestic terrorists just because they support a different political candidate.
And that's coming from a person that doesn't like Trump.
You're not a Trump person.
Oh, no, no, no.
But I think, you know, I have a lot of concerns, yeah, about the direction this country is going.
But really, you know, a lot of the world is in a very complicated position right now.
And, you know, the question is, you know, who are making the supposed solutions to this problem?
A lot of, you know, the big issues of today, right, we're being told, oh, they're so urgent.
We have to solve them immediately.
Here's the solutions.
Let's implement them.
But a lot of people aren't looking at what those solutions are, who made them, if they're really going to benefit us all.
It's all about, you know, urgency.
But really, the domestic terror stuff, it concerns me because they're basically some of the policy papers for that from the Biden administration sort of conflate things that go against the government narrative as national security threats.
And what happens if that ends up going to its logical conclusion?
You know, and they say stuff like, you say stuff online that makes people disagree with each other.
That's a national security threat.
Okay, so we all have to agree.
Everyone in the U.S. has to agree about what the government narrative or you're a national security threat or what you're saying is a national security threat and you can't be allowed online.
You can't be part of the public discourse.
You know, democracy requires that we have all sides heard.
And the more you start stifling not just like one side, but just anyone that doesn't agree with the government, we are going to get to a dark place very quickly.
And that worries me.
What happens once that takes place?
You know, I live in Chile in South America.
There was a government like that in Chile not that long ago.
People still remember it.
And it's not pretty.
It's never happened really in the U.S. before.
I don't think people really realize what all that involves.
What was the situation in Chile like?
There was a U.S.-sponsored coup d'état in 1973 that installed Pinochet.
He was a military dictator.
And basically, you know, mass murder, mass disappearing of dissidents that was enabled, actually, but I see at the CIA of something called Operation Condor.
Our government, our intelligence apparatus, a lot of the people I write in the book, designed domestic dissidents disappearing, you know, programs and protocols that were used by foreign governments.
What happens if someday they decide to turn that stuff on us domestically?
What do you think the war on domestic terror is?
It's designed by these same people.
Iran-Contra, Oliver North, he created something called Main Corps, which was a database of U.S. domestic dissidents that were going to be rounded up in the event of a vaguely defined national emergency.
They've tried this before.
Will they get away with it?
Are they trying to do that now?
This domestic terror stuff, if you follow it to its roots, you look at that stuff going on with the 80s, Iran-Contra, the aftermath of Oklahoma City, stuff that was going on after 9-11.
There is a faction in our government that likes that type of government that they've installed in places like Chile and other places around the world.
And I think there is a fight in our national security state apparatus between that faction and other people, and that that faction wants to bring that style of government here to the United States.
Is this what Trump refers to as the deep state?
Well, yeah, I guess so.
But I think Trump, in order to be in power, has made some sort of alliance with the deep state to an extent.
I mean, in the sense that he was able to sort of, you know, not be JFK'd, right?
But I think at the same time— You think he made an alliance with Deep State?
No.
Not necessarily, maybe some factions of it to get in power.
I mean, in order to be a presidential nominee of one of the two parties, you have to make, again, unsavory alliances.
But I don't think it's, again, I don't think the deep state's a monolith, right?
I don't think it's one group, one guy that all agree with each other.
You're going to have different factions in there.
It's kind of hard to believe because most of them hate this guy.
No, a lot of them hate.
Most of them, I would say, hate this guy.
The Russiagate stuff, all those guys.
Yeah, sure.
I think we can call that the deep state.
But again, this is not a monolithic group.
You're talking about people that all they care about really is expanding their money and power.
And sometimes they're going to butt heads with each other.
Sometimes they're going to come together.
Sometimes they're going to be at each other's throats.
It evolves a lot.
When it comes to talking about what exactly happened during Trump's first term, I mean, it's very complicated, but the extreme resistance he got from mainstream media or even the intelligence service and all that stuff.
I mean, there was a lot of really crazy stuff going on, right?
Remember that one interview that he did where he's like, when they basically said they were talking about Putin and MBS and Saudi Arabia when he said, well, you think the U.S. is that innocent?
Right?
Calling out of the world.
That's hard to say.
That's hard to say in U.S. politics today.
You know, it's really hard to be a big-time politician in this country unless you perpetuate sort of a fairy tale narrative about what the U.S. government is and has done.
And the reality is it's anything but that.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
I mean, listen, by the way, has anybody yet threatened you your life or not yet?
You're safe.
You haven't had any weird emails.
I mean, everyone, I think, gets weird emails, I mean, because it's the internet, whether they're people that are threatening you or just saying all sorts of crazy stuff.
I mean, whatever.
But I'm not really worried about it because, you know, I think a lot of what we're seeing right now is on one level, sort of a spiritual or energetic battle in a sense, you know?
And I think that if you are afraid, you're giving these power, these people power over you if you're afraid of them.
So I think your commitment to what's good about humanity and what you're fighting for, what we enjoy in life, our future, our children, all that stuff, your commitment to that has to be total.
What month's your birthday?
Just said again.
October.
October what?
17th.
Okay, that makes you guys one day apart.
By the way, just for the record, public service announcement, I think it's fair to say Whitney, Patrick, and I, we have zero plans of suicide.
This is not anything we're thinking of.
We got to give that disclaimer out there.
Just fun.
Well, people are afraid about that, and I think that's why more people don't come forward.
But I think in today's world, you know, it's much cheaper for them to just call me a conspiracy theorist and smear me than to hire someone to like take me out.
You know what I mean?
Yep, that makes sense.
Okay, so once again, appreciate you for coming out.
This was fantastic.
I think we need another couple hours with you.
Audience, if you're listening to this, if you were fascinated by this, you're in the middle of it.
My suggestion, share the hell out of this video with others and just ask them, what do you think about what Whitney has to say?
And then we're going to put the link below to both books, to order both books, volume one and volume two.
Tyler, if you can put it in the chat as well as at the top of the comment section and let's pin it to the top so people can go order her book.
And we'll in the description side, we'll put the website that they can come and find you as well.
Go ahead.
Sure.
No, if I could just say so, you know, two volumes, I should probably explain the difference between them.
Volume two is the bulk of the Epstein, Leslie Wexner and Gillene Maxwell material.
But if you're not familiar with some of the things we talked about today, BCCI, Iran-Contra, you want to know more about the history of Roy Cohn, Robert Keith Gray, Bill Casey, some of these guys that came up, you'll need to read volume one to understand the big picture.
I mean, you can read volume two and get a lot of the stuff about Epstein out of it.
But if you want to know the broader history and how long this has been going on in our country, I would recommend you read volume one.
But volume one is a lot denser and it's a lot more, you know, it's kind of work to read because it's dense.
There's a lot of people who are.
You're already saying start with two.
You're almost saying start with two.
No, well, I would personally start with one if you want it, because a lot of people like to go chronological, but some people, you know, got volume one and were like, where's Epstein?
You know, so I just wanted to let people know.
That's a good disclaimer.
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