PBD Podcast | EP 108 | Special Guest: John E. Deaton | XRP Ripple Lawyer
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Patrick Bet-David Podcast Episode 108. In this episode Patrick Bet-David is joined by XRP Ripple lawyer, John E. Deaton, and Gerard Michaels.
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The Bet-David Podcast discusses current events, trending topics, and politics as they relate to life and business. Stay tuned for new episodes and guest appearances.
About guests:
Gerard Michaels is an award-winning Writer, Director, Actor, Podcaster and Comedian with over 40 million views online. Follow him on Instagram here: https://bit.ly/3fMja9z
John E. Deaton is a Bitcoin, ETH, XRP, Crypto enthusiast; lawyer and entrepreneur. You can folloe him on Instagram here: https://bit.ly/3DPaxF
Connect with Patrick on social media: https://linktr.ee/patrickbetdavid
About the host:
Patrick Bet-David is the founder and CEO of Valuetainment Media, the #1 YouTube channel for entrepreneurship with more than 3 million subscribers. He is the author of the #1 Wall Street Journal bestseller Your Next Five Moves (Simon & Schuster) and a father of 2 boys and 2 girls. He currently resides in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
Bet-David is passionate about shaping the next generation of leaders by teaching the fundamentals of entrepreneurship and personal development while inspiring people to break free from limiting beliefs to achieve their dreams.
Follow the guests in this episode:
Gerard Michaels: https://bit.ly/3fMja9z
John E. Deaton: https://bit.ly/3DPaxFi
To reach the Valuetainment team you can email: info@valuetainment.com
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#PBDPodcast
00:00 - Start
01:27 - SEC vs XRP
8:41 - XRP Setting The Precedent
20:26 - How long will XRP fight the government?
24:51 - Purchasing for the Technology vs. as an investment
36:21 - Crypto Political Parties
58:10 - Government Picking Crypto Favorites
1:12:03 - Brad on Dogecoin
1:22:18 - Has Government Always Been This Overtly Corrupt?
1:33:24 -Barriers In San Francisco
1:38:22 - Keanu Reeves on NFT/Meta
1:48:30 - Own everything but bubble assets
Okay, today, today's guest, I just want to tell you who today's guest is.
Today's guest is John E. Deaton, former Marine in the Marines.
He was a lawyer, okay, in the Marines.
He comes out.
He starts falling in love for the concept of crypto, give or take.
He's interested in what's going on with the technology and the coin.
And then from there, when the SEC goes after XRP Ripple, I think December of last year, it's when they open up the case, John E. Deaton is now representing 62,000 XRP holders, of which 1,000 of them own other coins as well.
A lot of people on Twitter were saying, you and I got to get together.
And we finally were able to make it work.
So if you're somebody that's following crypto, if you own Bitcoin, if you own Ethereum, if you own Ripple, if you own anything, you probably want to pay attention to this.
And we're aware that a lot of the XRP community is going to be here because there's a cult-like following with that community.
So thanks for having you on, man.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for coming on.
Appreciate it.
Okay, so having said that, before we get into it, can you get some of the guys to give me an iPad charge here?
Because this thing literally died because I've been watching a bunch of his interviews.
So, John, what's going on, okay, currently right now with the SEC case against Ripple?
We have a bunch of notes here, but bring everybody up to date on what's going on right now with the lawsuit.
Well, right now, we're waiting on a couple big decisions from the judge.
There's a decision, a motion to strike Ripple's fair notice defense, and a motion, the most important motion, I believe, because I think the fair notice one is going to be an easy one for them to decide.
It is the internal documents at the SEC, their documents on Bitcoin, their documents on Ethereum.
There's even a document dated 2018, June 13th, 2018, on evaluating XRP and whether it's a security.
And the SEC has refused to turn any of these documents over.
They're claiming they're privileged.
And they're claiming they're privileged, Pat, even though they claim that they've never made an official declaration on Bitcoin or Ethereum.
They've actually rescinded Bill Hinman's speech on June 14th, 2018, where he said, look, Ether is no longer a security.
Bitcoin's not a security.
They've all walked away from that.
And so that's why this case is so important.
If the SEC is successful, I can guarantee you Gary Gensler is coming after Ether potentially and not so much Bitcoin, but every other altcoin.
So there's three audiences you're talking to today.
So I just want to kind of give you this perspective so you know as you're communicating.
The typical audience you talk to, they're all crypto community.
So when you drop in names and all this stuff, they know, right?
So when you drop in verbiage, they know.
When you're saying certain things, they know.
Today's community is consisted of those who are XRP, Ripple, which you're very comfortable talking to them.
Number two, it's the community on the crypto side that don't own XRP, but they own Bitcoin and Ethereum.
And they're concerned about what's going to happen with you because not you.
They're concerned what's going to happen with this case because we know Gary is hired and appointed, I think, February 3rd of this year by Kamala and Biden as the SEC chair.
And he used to be the Commodity Futures Trade Commission under Obama before.
And then prior to that, he was under Clinton.
So he's a full-blown Democrat.
They know it.
And we know Kamala, Biden, one of the game plans that they had is there was a couple of things that we're not comfortable about.
It's why they brought Gary in.
Gary is not a fan of SPACs.
They're trying to a little over-regulate SPACs.
You're aware of that.
Because last year there was about $100 billion of money raised for SPACs the last 24 months.
So SPACs are on the up and they've been around for a while, but it's been a lot of momentum lately.
And the other thing they're worried that they cannot regulate is why they brought Gary in, is cryptocurrency.
They would like to figure out a way to make crypto a security because if they do, they can now control it.
They can now regulate it.
They can do a lot of different things.
So for the audience that has no clue what's going on, okay, no clue what's going on.
Let's go through your initial passion on why you, as a former Marine lawyer who's extremely skeptical, why did you all of a sudden say, look, man, I want to see what's going on here with crypto.
This is kind of interesting to me.
What was appealing to you?
All right.
Well, first thing I did, I did what a lot of people do.
I read the Bitcoin white paper.
Okay.
Fell in love with the concept of cryptocurrency, bought Bitcoin, bought Ethereum, bought XRP, and just sort of went a firm believer.
You know, I think you said in an episode, 40% of all U.S. dollars printed in the last, what, year?
Yep.
18 months.
It's staggering.
And so looking at it as an alternative, a hedge on inflation, or just an alternative to fiat currency that's being debased every day.
So that's what got me involved.
What got me involved in this suit, Pat, was I'm just an investor.
I'm not a securities lawyer, believe it or not.
I'm actually Amika's counsel in the biggest securities case since 1946, and I've been practicing a securities law for about nine months, right?
But when I read the complaint as an XRP holder, I learned that the case was filed.
I was expecting to see what you always see in these securities cases, that the SEC would say, you know what, Brad Garlinghaus, you know what, Ripple?
When you sold XRP in 2013 to 2015 on this specific transaction on that specific day, that was an unregistered security.
And that's what I expected.
First paragraph, XRP itself is a digital asset security, and it's an unregistered security from the very beginning of time until today.
So according to the SEC, including the secondary market, Pat, if I go right now and I buy XRP from uphold and I don't have any idea of Ripple, they're saying that's an unregistered security.
And so it's something very different.
They're attacking the token itself.
And the case, the seminal case that they go off is this case called Howie from the Supreme Court in 1946.
It involved orange groves.
And the SEC never said, or the Supreme Court never said the oranges are the securities.
They said the scheme and the marketing and the packaging, the way that the company sold it, that was an unrestered securities offering.
They didn't say the tracts of land were the security.
They didn't say the oranges were the security.
The underlying instrument, Pat, is never the security.
It's the way you offer it and package it.
But in this particular case, they went after the token.
And Pat, for eight years, it was sold in the United States and worldwide, 200 exchanges.
They allowed Ripple to purchase 9% of money, Graham.
They had a settlement with FinCEN in 2015 where they called it digital convertible virtual currency.
This was being allowed to go on and on and on.
And all of a sudden, the former SEC chairman, Jay Clayton, on his last day, as he's walking out the door, slaps this lawsuit, the most significant SEC enforcement action, in my opinion, in modern history in a non-fraud case, and goes after the token.
And there's so many conflicts of interest that we're going to get into.
Jay Clayton was just on TV today on CNBC, and they asked him again, what about these conflicts that everyone is calling you out on?
And he's like, I'm not going to talk about it because it's pending litigation.
There's no pinning litigation over your ethics, right?
But he refuses to answer these questions.
Stuff we're going to get into.
Yeah.
And by the way, the current case against SEC, doesn't XRP have like some of the most incredible team right now?
Former SEC chairman is one of their representatives.
Who do they have on their team right now?
Who's Ripple have on their team right now?
It's outstanding.
Yeah, that's one of the things that I'm going to do.
Mary Joe White, former SEC chairwoman.
Former SEC chairwoman's on their team.
Former director of enforcement, a guy named Andrew Ceresny, who was the director of enforcement, is their lead trial attorney.
This is Ripple's.
Yeah.
And they also have on their team, former SEC person in charge of New York's office.
And they actually have someone who used to be the director of corporation and finance on their team.
Ripple has an all-star team as far as defending this case.
So let's talk about the devil's advocate.
Okay.
The folks who are right now saying, well, Ripple deserves this because behind closed doors, they were doing XYZ.
And for the way Ripple was formatted, if I remember, 80% of that $100 billion, right?
Is it $100 billion token?
Am I saying it correctly?
Of which 80% they gifted, 20% they kipped, right?
Today's market cap is around $37 billion.
The fully diluted will be around $80 billion.
It's kind of where they are today with numbers.
So some people from the other side say, well, listen, these guys were kind of doing the pump and dumb type of stuff behind closed doors and market manipulation.
And because there's no regulation, they can kind of do this.
And, you know, they used to say that also about John McAfee.
John McAfee would say, it's going to this, it's going to this, it's going to this.
So it would go up.
He would sell.
Then he would tell people not to sell.
And I don't know whether he did this or not, but that was a lot of criticism because we had McAfee on as well.
Well, one of the big things that, you know, we talk in the crypto community, our guys are like, we love Ripple, the technology.
We love Ripple, the coin.
We love what it can do for, you know, international, you know, money transactions.
Hate the people who created it.
So that seems to be.
What is that, though?
Why are people saying that, though?
Well, I think because when you compare it to Bitcoin, right?
There was no pre-mine with Bitcoin.
And you had people allegedly could fairly mine for it, and it was open and it was decentralized from the beginning.
They believe that these executives are enriching themselves.
But my answer to that question is: okay, go after Brad Garlinghouse.
Go after Ripple.
Why are you going after the token?
Why are you eight years after the fact?
Why are going after the teacher that put $500 in the Ripple?
Exactly.
I've never met Brad Garlinghouse, never met Chris Larson, never met any of the people at Ripple.
I'm no Ripple fan.
Those two names, just so if people don't know, they're founders.
I think Chris is the one that founded Ripple Labs, right?
He's one of the co-founders as well.
And they were sued independently.
Now, the thing about it, Pat, is in this case, after a 30-month investigation, the SEC didn't actually allege fraud.
They investigated Ripple for 30 months.
There's no fraud alleged.
It is a strict securities violation.
You didn't give proper disclosures when you made these transactions.
And I say, fine, go after them.
All right.
I'm not here to defend them.
They've got way better lawyers than me, right, to defend them.
But what you're doing, when you go after the token itself in the secondary market, right?
Let me tell you something.
And I know this because I've been communicating with 60,000 people.
It is an absolute fact that the first-time purchasers of XRP, 58.2% of them had never heard of the company Ripple.
They've heard Ripple, the name, but they never heard of a company.
58% have never heard of Ripple.
When they first speculate when they first spotted it, I got you.
Pure speculation.
Yeah, you know what they do?
Listen, you go out, it was the number three, for a while, it was number two, market cap, but it's the top three market caps.
Cryptocurrencies, it's 25 cents.
So people look at it, they see Bitcoin going up.
They're like, hey, I can afford 25 cents.
And so they were doing that and had no connection to this company.
And so to allege that those people entered a common enterprise with Ripple, and therefore it's an investment contract, is just, it's taking absurdity to the highest level.
Do you think that they attacked the soft target?
Do you think that they were looking to set a precedent against the tokens?
Ripple made the mistake of incorporating in the United States.
And they went after people that they didn't think, like, who pays you?
Like, they never thought that.
you know, 60,000 coin holders would actually come together, communicate, and formulate some sort of defense against this.
They thought they were going after a soft target and that they were going to create some case law that was going to change the crypto landscape.
And then you came in and you took a dump on their front lawn.
Well, let me tell you, I think what we're talking about here, the people that you know in cryptocurrency and what Pat said about people don't like these executives or they don't like the 80% being gifted and holding back 20%.
If you read the complaint, even though they don't allege fraud, they use fraud-like language in the complaint.
And it inflames people.
If you don't like Ripple and you're like, oh, they're going after Ripple, I'm not worried about it.
But when you read the complaint and it says that all XRP holders all joined into a common enterprise with each other and with Ripple, when they say that the very nature of the token itself is an investment contract with Ripple, then it becomes very dangerous.
They're using, in my opinion, this case to set the precedent that you're talking about so that if they're successful, they can do what you were saying, Pat, and regulate all the cryptocurrencies.
So let's go back to this SEC lawsuit that Clayton, you said Clayton did right before the day before he was done.
He filed this lawsuit.
I think it's December 20th of 2020, December something of 2020.
Right after election, by the way, when this thing kind of took place.
So the lawsuit is towards the XRP holders, nothing to do with Brad and Chris.
Is that what you're saying?
Or are they going after Brad and Chris as well separately?
No, they're going after Ripple and Brad and Chris, but they're being so over broad in their language that they're using that they're saying all XRP, even in the secondary market that's being traded, that all of that's an unregistered security.
So one of these 62,000 that's, what did they get in mail?
Did they get and mail something from the SEC?
Did they get, how do they know they're being part of that lawsuit?
Okay, what happened was basically, and this was forewarned, Clayton, and I have a letter.
I'm going to give it to you because I just got it from the SEC after fighting him for nine months and threatening to sue him through Freedom of Information Act.
But a former fellow Republican SEC commissioner Joe Grundfest on December 17th sent a letter to Clayton and the commissioners and said, don't do this.
You are about to harm innocent XRP holders and cause more billions in losses than in any non-fraud case in the history of this country.
They warned them and they still filed it on walking out the door.
And so what happened is just as that former SEC commissioner warned, he said, listen, if you say the XRP is unregistered security, Coinbase is trying to go public.
They're not going to hold it.
They're not going to keep it.
They're not going to trade it.
And so the intermediaries, the exchanges, and the platforms are going to delist it.
And that's what happened.
And so Coinbase, Kraken, Binance, Crypto.com, they all said, look, I'm not messing with the SEC.
SEC says the token itself is an unregistered security.
We're delisting it and we're not trading it.
And so you have people learn that way.
And many of these XRP holders learned of this company named Ripple and these executives called Brad Garlinghaus and Chris Larson for the first time when they got notice on their wallet.
And Coinbase that said, pursuant to the, and it says, I could show you on my phone, it says, because of the SEC action against Ripple, we are suspending all trading of XRP.
And let me tell you how that impacts people, Pat.
I don't know if you've ever heard of iTrust Capital, right?
It's basically an IRA for crypto, and it's the biggest one in the country.
And they allow you to hold your crypto, just like you can have the Bitcoin, grayscale Bitcoin trust in an IRA, right?
Well, they basically have frozen all of the people's assets.
So XRP, if they want to trade it right now, they can't.
If they want to sell it because XRP goes to five bucks and take that gain, they can't.
is Robin Hood, GME all over again.
You can't buy or sell or trade right now.
Not on Coinbase on those.
There are a couple exchanges like Uphold that made the decision that said, this is ludicrous.
Our securities lawyers say there's not an unregistered security.
We're comfortable maintaining it.
But there's like one or two out of 15 and the rest of them delisted.
But those individuals who have that money, that XRP, it's frozen.
So if they had a life-altering event, right, their mother-in-law needed to go to a nursing home and they needed to cash out.
Couldn't touch it.
Can't touch it.
All waiting on this lawsuit to happen.
Couldn't touch it.
Well, that's how a lot of these organizations get negative reputation that they do.
SEC types of organizations, what I'm talking about.
But, you know, when you get a knock on a door from SEC, that's a real knock.
It's not just anybody knocking on your door.
That's a knock you got to answer and say, here we go again.
So how much money is Ripple right now?
Brad, Chris, how much are they using with legal teams, especially the killer, the ridiculous legal team that they have?
How much have they already spent?
Do you know?
I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least a million and a half a month.
Okay.
Million and a half a month is what they're spending.
I mean, that's me guessing.
So in full, you know, if you were to say right now, there's a few things that can happen, right, with this case.
They can settle, which a lot of people are saying is probably going to end up settling, right?
Let's just say it's going to end up settling.
The SEC comes and let's settle, you know, $10 million, $50 million, $100 million, whatever the numbers that they settle with, right?
Fine.
Here's a check.
You move on.
And then the other one is to say they release.
They just kind of say, look, we're just going to let it go.
We're not going to do anything right now.
And we're not necessarily going to settle with you.
What is the consequences of both, both negative and positive?
Well, I think it's very positive for everyone if there is a settlement.
And give you an example.
You could pick the number.
Ripple owns 50 billion XRP.
It's in escrow.
And each month, $1 billion gets released.
And they use some of it, sell it, and then they put it back in escrow.
That's 50 billion, Pat.
Imagine if XRP gets to $5, right?
They're worth $250 billion.
That's significantly more than Morton Stanley and Goldman Sachs.
And so if that were to happen and the SEC were to be worried about the precedent, right?
The way this case settles is Gary Gensler is afraid that an adverse ruling by the judge on fair notice where she says, listen, you can't go after him.
You let it happen for eight years.
You didn't do anything.
There's so much unclarity in the world in this market.
You allowed them to have money gram.
You allowed it to go on Coinbase, all those things.
If that happens, then that precedent would be usable by Cardano and XLM and every other alt corporate.
Who doesn't want that?
He doesn't want that.
That makes sense.
So if that happens, when that pressure point takes place, then you could pick a number.
If it goes to five bucks, for example, if that happens, they could sell 10% of the monthly escrow, which would give them $500 million.
They could settle for $500 million.
It would be a huge public win for Gary Gensler because it would be one of the highest SEC settlements.
As long as they don't classify the token as a security.
But that settlement won't happen unless they do basically what was done for Ether in 2018 when Bill Hinman, then the director of corporation finance, said, you know what?
We're going to set aside the fundraising in the initial years, but today's token is not a security.
We would need some kind of declaration from the SEC or the court for that settlement to happen.
But to Pat's point, right now, look, that sounds well and good.
And, you know, and for the record, I hold XRP, so I hope it does 5X.
But right now, it's like 75 cents.
Correct.
So you're not talking about $250 billion.
You're talking like $40 billion.
And the U.S. government has nothing but money and time.
So from the outside looking in, I'm not an attorney, but this looks frivolous.
This looks like somebody trying to lean on somebody.
This looks like maybe, I don't know, like you said, MoneyGram Western Union decided to get a couple senators in there and say, you know, this is going to put us completely out of business.
Like, we make 25 cents.
We make 25 cents out of every dollar transferred.
These guys can do this instantaneously for no money.
Like, get rid of these guys.
But what's to say that they don't just keep dragging it out, dragging it out, dragging it out, dragging it out, bleeding you out, bleeding you out.
I mean, how long can they take this?
If they take this thing 10 years, is Ripple going to fight for 10 years?
What's their breaking point before they say, okay, you know what?
Fine.
We're security.
Close the thing down, reincorporate in Mexico with this same exact white paper and start over.
It's a great question.
My settlement scenario was if that pressure point existed for Ginsler that it was going to put him out of business regulating all the other crypto because of the precedent.
If those rulings don't come down favorable for Ripple, then I don't think there's a settlement.
I think it goes to verdict and I think it's on appeal.
And I think we are looking at a couple years of that process.
At some point, Ripple could tap out and say, listen, we'll go with a certain designation.
We can only sell to accredited investors now.
There's ways to get around it, but I don't see it happening.
I see it either settling because of those rulings that come down or it goes to verdict.
And there was a verdict in Connecticut not too long ago where a jury came back where there was a digital asset, a small one, where the jury said that's not an unregistered security.
And so that's where I think we're headed.
So let me go back to that, though.
Let me go back to that.
Because the point was we have two things, settle and dismiss, right?
You almost want settlement more than you want to be dismissed, right?
Because if they dismiss it, then that means, hey, we're coming back again and again and again and again and again, right?
So there's a part of Brad and Chris and the 62,000, and it's 62,000 you're representing, but there's more XRP.
Of course.
So what's the number?
456?
I saw a number like 450, 500,000 XRP holders.
Something like that.
Some number like that, right?
So if they dismiss and they don't do anything, what happens then?
Then we have this cloud hanging over us.
And what Gerard said, I think when you had Kurt, I was watching that video when you had Kurt on.
And Gerard summed up the unfortunate nature of what's happening in this country.
He literally said, Ripple is similar to Bitcoin.
They were just dumb enough to do it in the United States.
I mean, that sums it up.
We'll be right there where there'll be this uncertainty.
And right now, you have Gary Gensler saying, come in and talk to us.
Come in and talk to us.
As soon as they, they're using those interviews as a way to learn information about the company.
As soon as you leave, by the time you get to your office, you have a subpoena.
Brian Armstrong of Coinbase was trying to negotiate with them over that LIN product.
And all of a sudden, he shares with them all that information.
Goes in and he talks to them and then what do they say, if you bring that Lynn product, we're gonna sue you.
Why do you think they did want to be the first to to incorporate the United States?
They're obviously not dumb guys.
Why do you think they want?
They wanted this fight?
I feel like I feel like they kind of maybe not the SEC, maybe not the way that they've gone after it, but I feel like they they poked the bear, you know by, by kind of swinging against the current and I don't know, maybe they thought they would skip the line and be the first that would become like some sort of, you know, state-backed.
You know uh, you know, as Eb Tucker called it, FED Coin right, I don't know what, what their, what the intention was.
I don't know what kind of conversations you've had with them, but but have they ever described to you what their thinking was with making this, you know, an American product?
No, i've never.
I've never spoken to them, you know, and a lot of uh, a lot of my critics will say, oh, you know, he's a plant for Ripple, look what he's doing.
Never spoken to him.
Um, there was a report done by FOX Business on this story and they said, Deaton's no fanboy of Ripple.
I don't got anything against him, i'm an XRP holder.
I want them to be successful because if they're successful the whole ecosystem grows.
But um, but I, I don't know why a lot of people ask that question.
So so, so the definition of security.
What is the definition of security?
All right, a security in the form of an investment contract.
That's what's happening here.
Four things have to happen, one has to be an investment.
Two, into a common enterprise.
Three, you are led to believe, hang on investment, common enterprise, common enterprise.
You have to believe, a reasonable expectation of profit, okay.
And four, and you rely on the efforts of others for that profit.
If you meet those four factors and you must meet all four then it is an investment contract.
Meet a fourth one.
So investment, common enterprise, reasonable expectation of profit, and you're relying on others, relying on others to help make the profit, to make the profit.
So let me ask you a question, yep this, if this is what the definition of security is, i've been serious seven since day before 9-11 whatever, 2001.
I've been serious seven.
66 31 26, all those licenses till today have my licenses right, serious.
Seven can drink now.
My series seven can drink.
Now, you're right, in one year, in one year, in a year, he can drink.
Not yet he would have to drink at a party, like it typically would do.
But if that's what you're saying, how many people and this is a very simple question how many people buy Xrp, Ethereum or bitcoin for its technology rather than as a source of investment?
That is a great, great question, because there are.
Let me address this.
There are a group of people I represent that use the technology.
They go on the ledger, the Xrp ledger, and they use it as a bridge asset.
They buy casino coin there's a decentralized exchange part of the ledger and they uh, trade assets, trade different currencies.
Yeah, it's like a pseudo-dark web now, man.
And so there are users of the, the technology.
Yeah, um and um, but there's no doubt that there's a lot of people are speculating right, whether it's bitcoin, Ethereum i've read it as much as like 97 or speculating.
That's what i'm saying.
So that's the part where, for them, they don't like that, right?
I mean, you just defined, if I ask right now, listen, most people are probably not going to say exactly, but if I ask right now, why are you buying Bitcoin?
Oh, that's a great investment.
No, Don't use that word.
You know, don't use that word.
You know, like as a financial advisor, what's the one word you cannot use as an advisor?
You know, like the one word you have to be careful selling mutual funds or stocks or bonds.
What's the word?
The G word.
What's the G word?
Guaranteed.
You can't say, dude, I guarantee you.
The stock market with American funds, the last since 1934, when American funds, the investment company of Act of America came out, it's done 12.2%.
Dude, I guarantee you, you can't say that, right?
So that's the G word.
So the investment word, you cannot use that with these technologies.
Okay, number one, you're looking at it as an investment, common enterprise, reasonable expectation of profit.
Most people have a reasonable expectation of profiting.
And then relying on somebody else to make the profit.
One can say that about all of them, right?
So then the conversation becomes decentralized or centralized.
Many will say, well, Bitcoin and Ethereum are the most decentralized product out there, right?
Let's just say that's what many will say.
But then they'll say, look, Ripple is somewhat centralized.
And they'll come back and say, no, it's not.
It's pretty decentralized.
Only 7% is centralized, right?
How much does it matter whether the technology or the coin or the wallet is centralized or decentralized?
How much does that matter?
Great question.
And let me just point on your point about the investment.
I'm sure that Ripple lawyers and others, they don't want me talking about investments and things like that.
So you're 100% right.
Now, I will tell you that you have to focus on the token versus the technology.
The network versus the token.
Ripple, I will tell you right now, I can absolutely win any argument that the XRP ledger is more decentralized than the Ethereum network.
I put every dollar I got.
First of all, because if Ripple went away, they filed bankruptcy tomorrow, right?
XRP ledger continues, XRP continues.
Vitalic Buterin dies.
You're going to tell me Ethereum's going to continue to go?
Mark Cuban just recently said when he was challenged by Bitcoin Maxis on a clubhouse, I was listening in, and they were like saying to Mark, they were like, look, it's not even Ether 2.0.
They're going from proof of work to proof of state.
You know, they keep promising, promising, promising to never deliver.
And Mark says, I think that Vitalik's going to figure it out.
And I'm putting my money on that.
That's centralization, right?
Right there.
Now, the problem for Ripple is that they own 50% of the XRP.
That's token centralization.
That's token centralization.
And that's the real problem for them.
And a lot of people look at that and say, well, you own half of the token.
That's the market manipulation people were talking about.
They're worried about that.
And that's why Brad Gardenhouse came up with the escrow where they put it all in escrow and each month only a billion of the 50 billion will come out.
And then they'll go back in escrow and they can't touch it.
That's good he did that, by the way.
Very smart.
Very good he did that.
Very smart.
You made a great point, too, about Vitalik.
Like, I'm a big Ethereum guy.
Anybody that's been listening to the podcast knows I'm very, very, very bullish on Ethereum.
But I'm bullish on Ethereum because of Vitalik.
Same way that I own Tesla because of Elon Musk.
Elon Musk bails on Tesla.
I'm out.
You know, so the proponent of the great man theory, that's a great, great point that you're making, man.
But when it comes to, you know, as an attorney, right, when you're looking at what the SEC is doing, Pat made a great point about, okay, like we can't set this up as an investment.
Well, then I can see, you know, I'm just a dummy from Jersey and I can see a Kafka trap from a mile away.
Okay, well, if it's not that, if it's not an investment, then it's gambling.
And you still need to register with the Gaming Commission because you're buying a token.
It's lottery, essentially.
You're buying this thinking that it could go up, but with no fail safe if it goes down.
Either way, they're going to want you to register.
You're either gambling or you're investing.
And they've kind of got you trapped.
John, I just want to give you full disclaimer.
Very few dummies from New Jersey use the word Kafka trap two seconds after seeing dummy from New Jersey.
I just want to put that out there.
But go ahead.
I appreciate that because I'm still trying to figure out what I mean.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
I didn't listen to the rest of what he said after he said that word.
I'm like, what the hell does that mean?
I'm a dummy from New Jersey.
I'm just an ape.
I'm just an ape floating on a rock in outer space.
But anyways, what was the question?
So basically, man, you see them, they're trying to corner the token into regulation.
First, they're going to go after it as an investment property.
And then you're going to say it's not an investment property.
Like Pat's saying, it's not an investment property.
They're going to be like, okay, well, what makes it not an investment property?
Well, it could bottom out.
It could hollow out.
Oh, so then you're gambling.
Now you need to register as lottery.
Now you need to register as gaming.
They're letting your arguments, you're going to win this argument and through winning this argument, give them their next argument.
If I learned anything from doing Mafia States of America with the questions Pat asked, Rudy, the government is taking their losses and turning them into their next wins.
They will change the law until they have you.
So what my concern is with something like this, especially with the settlement, because the settlement makes too much sense.
Just make it go away.
The settlement gets you closer to the regulation.
If it's not going to be this, then they're going to get you the next time.
And it's not going to be registered as a security.
It's going to be registered as gaming.
It's going to have to be registered as some sort of gambling.
You're going to have to be 21 and older to buy it.
You're going to have to buy it with certain restrictions.
Like that's, they're going to regulate it some way or another.
And we're trying, the whole point of this is the decentralization and the deregulation.
The whole point of this is to be outside of their scope of control.
So, you know, that's kind of like, now that's not your concern, obviously, because your concern is to win the lawsuit in hand.
But, you know, and again, I didn't know that you didn't know the guys at Ripple, but I'm wondering if they are then saying, would they rather be a security than be gaming than be seen as some sort of lottery essence?
Because like you said, there's the technology, but then there's the speculation.
And the speculation right now, it's 97% of the people don't even know what they're doing.
That is gambling.
That's lottery.
Well, one problem in the United States is that you have so many multiple agencies.
It's already regulated.
XRP and Ripple were registered.
Well, Ripple was registered as a money transmitter, and they got sued by the government, Department of Justice, and FinCEN, and they had a settlement in 2015.
And they paid $700,000, and they were told you have to register all your sales of XRP through FinCEN.
And that happened in 2015.
And then of course five and a half years later, the SEC comes down and says, oh, by the way, it's also a security, right?
And so what we really need is Congress to step in and authorize the right agency to govern cryptocurrency.
If these are securities, then what's an NFT?
If the token is a security, what's an NFT?
What Pat went over, you can imagine many things fit those if you want.
Oh, no question about it.
Non-fungible tokens.
Oh, by the way, this is why I'm concerned.
Absolutely.
This is why I'm concerned.
Because, look, Joseph Kennedy, who is he?
He's a bootlegger.
He's the father of the Kennedys.
It's amazing there hasn't been a movie made about Joe Kennedy.
There has to be.
I mean, he's a legend.
The guy would sit down, his kids in suits and say, which one of you guys is going to be a president first?
Can you imagine like suddenly that expectation?
John Runner for the IRA?
I think you got your next project.
So I've interviewed RFK.
RFK is a very good friend.
I think we have something coming up together, debate that we're doing, part two with his book that just came out with his best friend in regards to his best friend, Anthony Fauci.
He loves Anthony Fauci.
That's a joke, by the way.
Sorry, Joseph.
So Joseph Kennedy, before there's any SEC, anything going on, the guy just knew pump and dumb, pump and dumb, pump and dumb, pump and dump.
Everybody and their mothers was doing it, right?
And then Security Exchange Act of 1933 and Such Investment Company Act of 1934 and all these other stuff, you know, whatever these years, these things started coming out, right?
Right after the Great Depression.
Was it a good thing?
Was it a bad thing?
Many will say it was a good thing because guys during that time capitalized because there was no regulation.
They came in, they took money out and the rich got richer and a lot of people got crushed that couldn't afford to lose that $3,000 or $40,000 or $100,000 or that girl you're talking about whose father passed away and insurance policy paid $75,000 and she put the $75,000 in XRP and she can't take the money out and that $75,000 is now whatever, $20,000, but she needs that money.
She can't touch that money, right?
Okay.
So the other part is what Draper said, Tim Draper.
I don't know if you saw the Tim Draper interview with Gary three years ago, 2018, when this interview took place.
And Draper gave a system.
I love what he said.
And by the way, for people that don't know who Tim Draper is, Tim Draper is a beast of a guy is who he is.
Here's how he broke down the system.
He says, bankers are panicking.
He said this in 18.
He says, this is their system.
It's always been their system.
Step number one, they say, this is nothing.
Cryptocurrency, Bitcoin, NFT, nothing.
You ain't got to worry about it.
There's no way they can compete with somebody like us where Jamie Dimon's got $7 trillion of money circulating through Chase on a daily basis.
That's like whatever the number they say.
That's a pretty big number that they go through, right?
So he says, step number one, these guys are nothing.
They're not going to make it.
It's just a fat.
It's going to go away.
Step number two, now it's too big where you have to face it, okay?
So what they do is three, bankers all get together and say, we can't make this happen.
What do we do?
Step number four is we sue them.
Step number five is we bring our government friends to say, I need a favor.
I need you to sue those guys.
And he's telling this to Gary when Gary wasn't yet the SEC chair.
He was only the chair of the CFT Commodities Futures Trade Commission, right?
CFT.
It's like he's clairvoyant.
Exactly.
That's what was so epic about it.
I don't know if you've seen this or not.
What did Gary say?
It's powerful.
So then Gary's trying, well, but I think we're already there.
But I think we're already there.
And then he says, and the last one is Tim Draper, freaking mic drop.
He says, it's make or buy.
This is what everybody do.
All the great companies, they either make or buy.
He says you either have to choose to make a similar product, similar exchange, similar token, similar wallet, or you have to buy it.
And that's eventually going to happen.
So that's where we are today.
Now, go to politics and bring politics on board.
For four years, I've been saying when people say Bitcoin, Ethereum, Ripple, you know, all these crypto Patrick, this is what's going on.
I said, you have to realize there are those who are driven by freedom.
Leave me alone.
Let me do something better.
And there are those that can't stand it that you keep getting richer and more powerful.
They cannot stand that you keep making money.
We had Matt Zeller on yesterday and we talked about Trump and I hate Trump.
I hate Trump.
You know how angry he got.
And you and I had lunch at Louis Bossi.
I like Matt Zeller.
Oh, I do too.
We're bringing him back on board.
I think Matt's great.
But you and I talked about it during lunch, and you said what?
You said, why do you think it's such a thing about— He broke them.
Yeah.
What was it?
There's something about Trump that makes these people violently angry.
I said, because there are certain people in life you're okay losing to.
You're kind of like, well, listen, I lost to my cousin.
The guy kind of comes from the richest family and he went to Harvard.
I'm okay if I lose to that guy.
He makes more money.
Then he's more successful.
It's fine.
But then you have that one cousin whose mom and dad were, let's just say, you know, divorced and one was an alcoholic, one went to jail.
That cousin beats your ass in life.
You can't deal with that.
You got to diminish him.
You got to throw him.
You got to do all this other stuff, right?
Crypto is almost like that cousin and that coin where it's like, listen, Fiat's been around for a while.
Gold's been around for a while.
Who the hell you think you are?
There are a lot of people that don't want to see this happening, but there's one good thing that's happening today to the crypto community.
There's more true believers today than ever before.
There are more credible sources that are coming and saying, look, we're putting our money into it.
We're going to fight as well.
It's now the crypto community is a political party.
So we're back in the days where Democrats wanted to win the black vote and they did after Barry Goldwater.
That's a great point.
The Democrats wanted to win the black vote because blacks forever have been conservatives.
Martin Luther King was a conservative.
He was a Republican.
We got to win it.
Barry Goldwater gave it away.
Went from 60% to 92%.
African Americans voted for who?
For Democrats.
And they've had it since then, 92, 80.
Civil Rights Act.
It's been a while, right?
Political parties today have to be very careful.
And I think this is going to favor whoever's on the free enterprise side of the political side.
Because Gary's a Democrat.
Biden's a Democrat.
Kamala's a Democrat.
And the ones that are going after crypto are all on one side of the political party.
The libertarians, the independents, which is the crypto community.
The crypto community is not Republicans.
They're typically independents and libertarians.
Anti-establishment.
Yeah, anti-establishment, which Republican is establishment to them.
So is the Democratic Party.
But I think what's happening right now is if this happens, I don't think this is just a financial issue for them.
If they settle whatever they do, forget about that part.
I think they're going to be crushed politically because it's no longer just 100,000 votes or half a million votes.
You've got millions on top of millions that now have influence.
I'll tell you why you're 100% right, especially with the younger community.
All right.
This is, again, E.B. Tucker, great, great guy we had on last week.
You know, there's kids that I've coached in baseball, kids that I still follow that are now young adults.
They've never held gold.
They don't give a shit about gold.
But they've been trading crypto for five years.
Absolutely.
They've gone and they're learning blockchain technology in schools.
I learned cursive.
You know what I'm saying?
These kids are learning blockchain, triple ledger.
They understand the technology in ways that we don't.
You know, we're almost old in this.
And these guys, this is not like new alien technology to the next generation.
This is just a way of life to the next generation.
So it's only going to get bigger.
And they saw what government does.
They saw with GME, what happened with GME when the government literally stepped in and made it okay for the hedge fund not to go under.
For people that don't remember what happened with GME, they overhedged on a short.
Wall Street bets came out.
A couple rogue analysts came out and said, these guys are leveraged past their teeth.
All you got to do is keep the price above the put, and they got to pay whatever.
It could go up to a million a share, theoretically.
And it had gotten up.
It was a $6 share.
It had gotten up over $350.
And it was going to go up over $1,000.
And they just turned it off.
You could sell the stock, but you couldn't buy it.
No, you're right.
So what the SEC did in that regard, or what they didn't do, I think I ended up getting like a class action, like $12 check from Robin Hood or something like that.
We bought all these exchanges.
If you didn't believe in the necessity for a decentralized, unregulated blockchain, like, yeah, you can lose your money on Mt. Gox, but you can also lose your money in the stock market.
And they could steal from you, and you have no recourse whatsoever.
That right there, what happened with that Wall Street bets, what happened with that $6 million, you know, I think it's up to 10 million Reddit, a subreddit, is you had an entire block worldwide that lost trust and faith in the market and in regulation, whatever little faith that they had in regulation, they lost it all overnight.
Let me tell you how on point you are.
Just a little over a month ago, I started a website and I'm plugging it, but I don't make any money.
There's no sponsors.
It's called cryptolaw.us.
And I put an app in it.
And all you do is you put in your address and your zip code and you type your message and it goes to your Congress office and your two senators.
In a little over a month, 6,000 messages have been sent to these elected officials.
100 senators have been contacted by these crypto people and 420 representatives.
It's making a difference.
They are very engaged.
That's an incredible number.
People have to do something that doesn't do anything.
Trust me when I tell you, having been in government, that does everything.
So many people don't make contact with their elected officials that the few people that do, their voices amplified so much.
I tell a story from when I, I think one of the first times I was on the podcast, it was an old lady, a nun, and she thought people were speeding too fast down the church.
And she would literally call and show up at the state house once a week.
Hey, we need a speed bump.
Is there any way we can get a speed bump?
I'll raise money for a speed bump.
And then finally it got to a point where it was like, we need to fast track the speed bump.
I don't want to deal with this lady anymore.
She was the nicest activist in history.
The lady got her speed bump.
It took her like four months.
It was just one person that writing an email, making a phone call, showing up at the State House, and she got her speed bump.
You know, like the system works if you're the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
And that cryptolaw.com, that's a game changer.
And I'm actually wrong.
It's 8,000.
I just remember it's over 8,000 messages have been sent to them.
And people are sending me some of their letters.
And some of them, many of them get the form letter.
Hey, thank you for contact.
Don't do that.
Don't do the form letter.
Right.
Some have been doing that.
I'm talking about the SEC, not the SEC, the elected representatives, they're getting from the app.
But some of them are actually meeting with their constituents and learning because they see where this is going.
I've had people send me letters that they received from their congressmen, a couple of them here in Florida, where they said, we're involved in this SEC.
We're monitoring.
8,000 people, bro.
8,000 people.
Look at Jersey.
You just had Phil Murphy win by what, 6,000 votes?
You think that he's saying 8,000 people?
He's like, if they're going to write me an email, they're going to vote.
Let me tell you.
Let me tell you.
If I'm the Democratic Party right now, the Republican Party, Or if I've ever, like the Libertarian Party that puts a candidate like George Organsa, love her philosophies, love the philosophies.
You can't sell.
You're not a salesperson, right?
People thought Spike Cohen was running.
If there ever was a time that you saw an opportunity, if Ross Pearl was able to get to 21%, whatever the number was, 19 to 21%, as an independent, if you've ever wanted to capitalize on it, like if today Libertarian Independent Party wanted to get to 30, 35%, like this is a market.
This is not going away.
But here's a concern that I got for you.
I'm going to go back to.
So Ponzi scheme.
You know, the word Ponzi came about.
This was this guy.
There was a guy named Ponzi.
Okay.
So what's the whole thing about a Ponzi scheme and a pyramid scheme?
You hear these words, Ponzi scheme, pyramid.
Everything nowadays called a pyramid scheme.
Everything nowadays is called a Ponzi scheme.
It's very easy.
People drop that word regularly, right?
NFT is being called that.
Cryptocurrency has been called that.
A lot of things I've called.
The multi-level marketing has been called pyramid scheme or Ponzi scheme.
But the challenge where some people win is when there's not an actual usage of the product.
Let me say that one more time.
There's not an actual usage of the product, meaning the product they sell is not being used.
If I'm anybody right now, I want to get to the 60% number, 70% number, which means something, there's got to be 70% of the people that buy this coin use the technology, use other aspects of it rather than just a, yeah.
So for example, hypothetically, all these guys that are pro-Bitcoin, pro-Ethereum, pro-whatever, Doge, you know, you just saw Elon Musk yesterday saying, we're not going to be taking payment for what?
Through a Doge, right?
Because he says the technology is better than XY, even though they started as a meme thing, it's better than all the other guys with the technology.
Elon Musk is doing the right thing.
What Elon Musk is doing is he's making it, he's giving it credibility.
So for example, insurance companies need to start accepting Bitcoin as a payment.
Like when you talked about the whole I trust capital, which is the IRA, that's great.
Small businesses need to start more taking Bitcoin as a payment, Ethereum as a payment.
More of these folks that are pro-crypto the future, which is that's the direction you're going decentralized.
The bank can no longer bully you and do all the other stuff.
Power can no longer control your life.
Any of those things, great.
But there needs to be a major push into the usage of the technology rather than the investment.
If they win there, I think.
You are 100% on.
And that's why I brought up the utility.
Listen, I can make a very good argument that XRP is being utilized way more than Bitcoin or Ethereum as it relates to just that token being usage.
Cross-border payments, people get on the ledger, they send money.
There's an app, a developer independent of Ripple called Spin the Bits, and it's spinning Bitcoin, where he uses the XRP ledger as a layer two solution to the Bitcoin network problem, right?
It takes 10 minutes at the low end for Bitcoin to an hour for the transaction to go on the ledger.
Ripple's XRP is instantaneous, three to five seconds.
And you know when you had Kurt on here and he said, you know, Bitcoin is like seven transactions, BTC on and Ether is 15.
Ripple XRP, the token, 1,300 per second transactions and fraction of a penny.
I can move, I've watched it, I can move $2 million worth of Bitcoin for a fraction of a penny using the XRP ledger.
As you said earlier, the technology is awesome.
It's absolutely, in my opinion, the superior tech as far as the network.
And I think when you get to usage, XRP is ahead of the game.
That's where you win.
You win there.
That's my opinion.
I may be wrong, but I think you win by me needing to use the product.
If I use the product, it validates that it's not just an investment.
Here's the problem, though, guys, right?
And this is the beauty of decentralization.
And this is also, you know, this is where just decentralization lags behind.
Who's the Patrick Bett David of Ripple?
Who's moving the company forward from a marketing perspective?
Who's out there creating the infrastructure necessary?
Who's got the user interface so that everybody can get on their phone and within three seconds learn how to use the product and use all these different ledgers that we're talking about?
Who's going to teach my mother how to use Ripple on a day-to-day?
It was impossible to teach her how to use Venmo.
It took like two years to get her on Venmo.
You know what I'm saying?
So that becomes the issue with cryptos going forward.
Which community can come together and coagulate in a common direction that they're going to have the Bitcoin ATMs and somebody's going to have the conversations with Mutual of Omaha and say you should be using Bitcoin to take payments.
Who's out there actively selling?
Who's out there actively marketing?
Who's out there actively creating infrastructure and these usage things?
There's a trillion dollar industry.
Trillion dollar industry in the future for people that, I mean, think about it.
Think about the very first person who allows EasyPass to have Bitcoin and takes one-tenth of a cent of a transaction for every EasyPass that goes through every toll in the country.
They're worth a trillion dollars.
No, you're right.
So, I mean, like, but who's doing that?
I mean, right now, like, who is pushing that technology forward?
Who's the driving force behind that technology in these in these, because these aren't like companies.
They're like organizations.
They're, you know, it's the beauty of it.
It's the wild, wild west right now.
There's no directive.
Well, two things.
You'd be a great securities lawyer because do you know consumptive use defeats the whole case?
For XRP or if Ether gets sued, the SEC in the complaint, they have an entire section that tries to say there is no consumptive use.
It is all mere speculation.
There are no users of the network.
So you're 100% on point.
And the problem, the danger why this case is so dangerous is what you just said.
Who's out there promoting it?
Because once you are a promoter, are you a common enterprise?
Are you leading people to a reasonable expectation of profit based on your efforts?
If somebody was a drug dealer that started it, is it now a RICO case?
Are you now complicit in international smuggling?
Like if you buy, like this stuff's the Wild West, man.
NFTs, like I saw, and you as a lawyer, I'm sure you've heard this as well.
There are people out there right now, right, that are creating an NFT for $300 Ethereum.
They've got a million dollars in Ethereum sitting in the bank.
They buy their own NFT for a million dollars Ethereum.
They spend a million dollars, but now they have the NFT and the million dollars Ethereum.
They sell it at a loss for half a million dollars.
So they lost on the ledger a half million dollars.
It took a half million dollar loss, but they got a million and a half Ethereum.
You can do that over and over and over.
It's not illegal right now.
You're getting a half million dollar loss and you're increasing your wealth.
Is that what's going on with the NFTs?
I mean, is that the idea?
Think about it from this standpoint.
Okay.
What allows the government to want to tighten up regulation on guns?
What allows it?
Like, think about what helps their argument.
Public perception?
No, forget public perception.
It's dummies who do stupid things that are irresponsible with a gun.
Then the politician comes on and says, what?
I told you.
I'll say it.
But we have to, you know, and you know what?
Governor Newsome, I'm going to do exactly what Texas did to abortion.
We're going to do to guns in California.
Here's what we're going to do moving forward.
You can no longer buy pop, up, right?
So, meaning, where I'm going with this is the following.
The quick money, get rich, quick scheme type of guys are unfortunately, unfortunately making life difficult for the rest of the guys that are doing it the right way, the long-term play-wise.
And this has been going on for a while.
Government, the regulators, they love that 1% of the con man that are trying to, they say, you see, you see?
That's exactly why we need to protect you.
It might be them.
I'm that person.
It might be them.
They're the ones going around breaking the windows of the Hegelian dialectic.
That's the Hegelian dialectic.
Gary Ginstler just did that just a couple weeks ago when he brought up Bitcoin.
Someone brought up Bitcoin.
He goes, it's being used for ransomware.
Do you know what percentage that that really is being used?
That's the play.
But that's the play.
That's the play.
And you know, like, for example, last year, we had a couple hundred thousand dollars of a fake value payment consulting Bitcoin stolen.
And we get the calls.
And I get on the phone with these guys.
I'm like, listen, that's not us.
That's not us.
Look at the email you got.
That's from David Crypto Specialty at gmail.com.
I said, that's not us, buddy.
We don't have that website.
That's not our website.
Go look at the IP address.
Oh, shit, I feel so bad.
My wife is so upset at me.
So there is that going on as well.
Absolutely.
So there's got to be a part on, you know, a society has to either accept the fact that if that happens to you, you were the one that didn't verify the source that was coming your way.
So you deserve exactly what you got.
Or a society needs to say, no, we need to figure out a way to eliminate 100% of that.
And that's when these government people come in and they feel special that they're needed to do their job.
And then they go turn one small regulation into 78 different regulations.
And then another guy comes in, try deregulating stuff.
So my concern is they're going to point to these guys and say, this is why you need our help.
Which would you prefer in that spectrum?
You know which one I would prefer.
To me, I would prefer, look, the whole concept of value team is what?
Education.
That's the whole concept of value team.
Look, here's what to look out for.
Here's where to be paranoid about.
When you're raising money, keep these things in mind before you raise money.
Ask these 10 questions.
Before you're hiring somebody, ask them these five questions.
Before you open up an office and sign a lease, know what the commercial real estate guy makes.
Here's what their motive is.
Yeah, so to me, I'm all about educate, And then look, if you screw up, it's on you.
I've screwed up.
God knows how much money I've lost screwing up.
That's organic regulation.
And that's organic regulation.
A part of that has got to be organic regulation.
But there are those who abuse others.
My punishment for abuse would go higher.
My punishment to want to hurt somebody's livelihood and their savings, if you do that, it wouldn't sit very well with less laws, but harsher consequences.
Less laws, harsher consequences, my approach is what it would be.
The problem we have, though, is it's always an extreme.
It's either no regulation or it's a nanny state.
That's the problem.
The financial crisis, after it came down and Dodd-Frank was passed and all that, I couldn't get a mortgage to my home and I just wanted a home equity loan, even though I had the home was worth two-thirds what I'm asking for and I had five times that in my savings account.
But they said because one year I fell under a certain threshold at my law firm, you know, settlements were delayed or whatnot.
They're doing that.
But they're doing the exact same thing now with COVID.
They're doing the exact same thing now.
They're telling people that they had a lapse of income.
They were like, yeah, the world was shut down.
But before that, anyone, it was no verification income, loans.
It was no job verification, all those things.
That's the predatory lending.
But the problem we have right now is when a situation like this case happens and certain government officials start picking the winners and losers.
And that's what's happened in this particular case.
And I hope we have time to go over some of those concepts.
Go for it.
Go ahead.
All right.
So I just want to share with you a couple minutes and interject.
Go ahead.
Right.
So Clayton gets appointed.
Immediately, he is called.
Clayton is former SEC chair.
Thank you.
Former SEC chair, Jay Clayton.
Immediately, he's described by Rolling Stone Magazine as the most conflicted SEC chairman in the history of the United States because of his connection to the banks and the Wall Streets.
At his confirmation hearing, him and Elizabeth Warren go back.
He agrees that he should recuse himself that he should never vote against one of his clients having an enforcement action.
Like he has to step back, right?
So that goes on.
He gets his good friend, William Hinman, to become the director of corporation and finance.
These guys are heavily connected.
They were the main sponsors of Alibaba IPO and many other types of IPOs.
Bill Hinman comes in.
Jay Clayton is from firm Sullivan and Cromwell.
Okay.
And Bill Hinman is from Simpson Thatcher.
Well, immediately in December of 2017, Sullivan and Cromwell represents the co-founder of Ethereum, Joe Lubin and ConsenSys.
And Bill Hinman has a meeting with him and they start talking.
Immediately, the very next day, ConsenSys general counsel gets up and starts talking about how they're building this alliance with the SEC.
They go on to have four to five more meetings with ConsenSys and the co-founders of Ether with Bill Hinman.
Bill Hinman's firm is charged.
So just so I keep track, so you have a private law firm, Ethereum, and then you have the SEC all together in meetings?
Right.
What you have is you have the co-founder of Ethereum, Joe Lubin, and the founder of ConsenSys meeting with SEC Bill Hinman, and his firm is a member of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance.
To what end?
In what capacity?
What was the reasoning for the meeting?
I think he's getting to it.
The reason for the media is because they start lobbying for an Ethereum free pass, right?
They want to say, hey, Ethereum, yeah, we maybe did an ICO because it was the world's first ICO, but it's sufficiently decentralized.
So Jay Clayton then tells Andreessen Horowitz, which is a huge investor in crypto, right?
They have the 2.2 billion fund, big Ether backers.
He says, write a memo up for us and tell us what you want.
They write a memo and a safe harbor proposal.
There are multiple meetings that take place.
A secret meeting in March of 28th of 2018.
And it gets leaked because there's some stuff going on in there.
And they propose a safe harbor for crypto.
But the only crypto they mention is Ether.
And then what happens on June 14th, 2018, Bill Hinman, gratuitously as director of corporation and finance, very high up at the SEC, gives his infamous speech where he says, setting aside the fundraising that took place with Ether, it is sufficiently decentralized today, and therefore current sales of Ethereum are no longer considered a security.
He goes on CNBC and he says, well, you know, when we look at Ethereum, we don't see a third-party promoter.
You just had a meeting with them.
It's a backroom deal.
You just had meetings with them.
He had a meeting on June 8th, six days before the speech.
He had a meeting with the promoter, so he gets up there and says we don't see it.
In criminal law, this sounds like a proffer meeting almost.
And then, absolutely, then all the people start asking, well, what about XRP?
XRP was actually number two at the time behind Bitcoin, and it was battling Ether for the number two spot.
Oh, we're not going to comment on any further tokens.
Joe Lubin then goes out and starts basically saying what the SEC is going to do.
He says, we're working with the SEC.
They gave Ether a pass.
They gave Bitcoin a pass.
All these other coins, he literally says this, are spectacularly disadvantaged compared to Ether.
They didn't mention XRP.
That's very interesting.
He says the SEC is going to be coming after certain projects.
All of this takes place, right?
In the meantime, Bill Hinman is collecting $15 million from his law firm while he's at the SEC, which is a member of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance, right?
Sullivan and Comrell, which represents Jay Clayton's firm, that's his firm, they represent ConsenSys and the co-founder of Ethereum.
Wow.
Right?
All of that's going down.
Now, listen to this.
Just before the lawsuit happens, now in the meantime, in the meantime, Ripple's allowed to buy 9% of MoneyGram and use XRP.
It's actually, they're giving it to MoneyGram, who's then selling it on exchanges for dollars.
Coinbase in January of 2019 goes to the SEC and says, look, our securities lawyers have decided that XRP is not a security.
We want to list it.
What do you say, SEC?
SEC doesn't say anything.
One month later, XRP is listed on Coinbase.
Then, in October, OneRiver comes out and they make a $1 billion bet on Bitcoin and Ethereum.
That's in October.
And also, ConsenSys decides that they're going to buy Quorum, which is a competitor to Ripple.
They're trying to replace Swift, the messaging and money banking system, basically, which is what Ripple was completely focused on.
And then on the last day, you've got on a three to two vote.
Who does Clayton go with?
He goes with the two Democrats, even though he's a Republican, votes to file the suit against Ripple as he's walking out the door.
His excuse has been reported.
Well, he deferred to the staff.
The director of enforcement leaves three weeks later to go to Simpson and Thatcher.
Clayton left.
Bill Hinman left.
All of these senior people who were supposed to foresee this case, right, and see it through all leave.
Two weeks before what I mentioned earlier, before this happens, Joseph Grundfest, former SEC commissioner who helped Ethereum, writes, and I got the letter here, writes to Clayton and the commissioners.
It says, listen, you've never made a material distinction between Ether and XRP.
If XRP is a security, Ether is a security.
If you're going to allow XRP Ether to be traded, you've got to let them trade it.
He even goes as far as— I've got 15 million reasons why that's not true.
He goes as far as to say, if you file this lawsuit, it calls into question the commission's discretion.
This is like a damn John Grisham.
He says that.
And so what happens?
Jay Clayton votes for the lawsuit.
The two Democrats vote for it.
The lawsuit's filed.
They all leave.
Jay Clayton goes to One River, Bitcoin and Ether.
And guess what?
The people that helped write the Hinman speech.
And by the way, these are all facts on CryptoLaw.
We have a video library of all these interviews.
It's getting dangerously close to making an allegation here.
All right.
And I will tell you, they basically come out and Bill Hinman now works.
He's a partner with the Ether investors who helped write the speech that gave Ether a free pass.
And that's not an allegation.
That's facts because lawyers who are part of the meeting have come out and said, I didn't think Ether was sufficiently decentralized, but Bill Hinman did.
I'm not sure why he did.
15 million reasons might tell you why, being a partner at 2.2 billion.
So here's the thing about allegation.
I'm not saying that they broke a law, but what I'm saying, tell me there's not enough for an independent investigation.
That's all we want.
We want an independent investigation.
In the meantime, don't take John Deaton's word for it.
An independent organization in power is in litigation with the SEC because they won't turn over documents.
They won't give us Bill Hinman's calendar.
How is a guy who's being paid by tax dollars, director of corporation finance, they won't give us his calendar to who he met when he met?
They won't release it.
This independent organization that sued the SEC asked for any ethics discussions between Bill, between Clayton and the SEC about his post-employment.
Hinman, they say there's no documents or they won't give the documents.
You have a Freedom of Information Act they won't give it?
Right.
75 years, 75 years now for the Freedom of Information Act?
Right, and so that's all in litigation.
But that's what's going on.
You know what I mean?
And so what I'm doing is saying, listen, you want to go after Ripple?
Go after Ripple.
Go after Brad Garden House.
I don't care.
But you are destroying people's lives by attacking the token itself.
And why did you allow the money grant to happen?
Why did you allow Coinbase to do it?
How does Coinbase go in there and say, we're going to list XRP unless you tell us otherwise?
And then they don't, and they list it.
And then 18 months later, as he's walking out the door, he slaps the laws.
And weren't told no yet.
Right.
But it's what I'm saying.
And so.
Let me ask you, who hates, if you were to make a list of people who hate XRP, who would you say hate XRP?
Not dislike, who hate it.
Joe Lubin, who is the co-founder of Ethereum, the founder of ConsenSys.
We have him on video saying XRP is overvalued.
XRP is a shitcoin.
XRP this.
XRP is not a competitor.
And so we're not worried about it.
The day of the Hinman speech, where he gave Ether the free pass, Joe Lubin goes on the same stage right after Bill Hinman and he says these words.
He says, by the way, I didn't get to read all of the speech.
Did they bring up XRP?
And the moderator goes, no.
He goes, well, isn't that interesting?
Right?
He goes on later in interviews to say that the SEC is going to be coming after certain projects and he hints that it's going to be XRP.
And the thing that you have to understand is the guy who's saying XRP is not a competitor, XRP is not a competitor.
Why is it the first token you bring up after you're given the free pass?
And the other thing that the SEC won't give us is, did you know that 63 emails went out with that draft speech that gave Ether a free pass?
Do you know who was the only commissioner to get a draft version of it?
Who's that?
Jay Clayton.
Did you know Crypto Mom herself, Hester Pearce, never saw it?
How do you draft?
Why would Clayton even be involved in that draft?
Why would he even?
He gave input.
He's the only commissioner.
Bill Hinman was deposed.
Ripple was successful in getting him deposed.
Of course, they redact everything to the public.
And I have it here.
If you want to see it, the lawyers ask him, did you ever represent Ethereum?
90%.
Let me, can I see?
This goes to Pat.
You were telling a story a couple weeks back about you were at Harvard and you said that there was a guy who was having trouble.
To just find a congressman, pay him half a million dollars if he's going through an election and he'll help you put up a law to hurt them.
This is it?
Yeah.
In action.
He's asked questions like, have you ever worked for Ethereum Foundation?
Look at the answers.
Look at the freaking, look at the redactions.
All right.
And this isn't the whole, this isn't this.
This isn't the whole lawsuit.
Dude, are you kidding me?
This is insane.
Now, why would they redact, Pat, if he's asked the question, have you ever had clients that are part of the Ethereum Foundation?
If I represent you and your business, I can't talk about what we talk about.
Is that public record?
No, it was an exhibit that's public record.
Can we show this?
Oh, yes, yes.
You can show it.
Absolutely.
So I don't know if people can see this.
There are pages of that.
This is an entire page of every single word on the page redacted, and there's pages of it.
This is your transparent Securities Exchange Commission.
Holy moly.
You were going somewhere.
You were going somewhere about why they would do this.
Well, what I was saying is it's not even privileged.
There's no reason to redact it.
Someone could ask me, are you the lawyer for Pat?
I'd say, sure.
I'm not going to tell you what we talk about.
But it's not, I can't say, you know what I mean?
These firms brag.
If you go on his firm, Simpson Thatcher, they'll brag.
We represent Google.
We represent Yahoo.
We were part of the Alibaba IPO.
They brag about who their clients are.
But in a deposition on taxpayer dollars, we can't get to know what your company is.
Because what do you do?
What do you do as a citizen?
You're trying to live your life.
You're trying to play by the rules.
They're setting the rules.
You're trying to play by the rules.
And then they come and whenever they want, they change them.
And then you get no recourse.
The way you feel right now is the way I felt on Christmas Eve this time last year.
I felt just like that.
And that's why I filed the lawsuit.
It's a helpless, infuriating feeling, man.
This is the type of shit that makes you want to get the.
But here's a question for you.
Yep.
So the bigger names that are supporters of Ethereum.
It's not small names.
No.
These are big names.
Big.
Right?
The big hedge funds that are bullish on Ethereum.
These are not small names.
These are very, very well-known names, right?
That you're talking about Fortress, ARK, Investment Group, Brevin, Renaissance.
There's some of these bigger names.
Billions.
Yeah, billions.
So which means they have access to, they are banking on them being it.
So is this a situation where Ethereum doesn't want an XRP and it's a form of wanting to eliminate competition?
Is that all it is?
Or it's a form of, let's get rid of these guys and let's not put the attention on us.
Let's get the attention to XRP.
Is that kind of what this is?
Sure, I think Joe Lubin said it best.
I said when he said that every altcoin is spectacularly disadvantaged when compared to Ethereum.
He said, Bitcoin and Ether, we've been blessed.
We have the regulatory pass.
We have the free pass.
These other folks don't.
And look at how much activity went to Ethereum since that speech in 2018.
What, half of NFTs on Ethereum?
This article just came out.
I'm looking at this article.
Ethereum Joe Lubin defends SEC Ahmed Ripple lawsuit.
As the SEC is facing a barrage of criticism for its scattershot approach to regulatory cryptocurrencies, the much-feared regulatory agency has a supporter within the industry, consensus CEO Joe Lubin.
And in a recent interview with the Information, Lubin, who is known as one of Ethereum co-founders, claims that the SEC chair Gary demands for greater authority in regulating cryptos are justified.
The head of Ethereum Development Studio says that the agency has a lot of legit arguments, may have legit arguments in the cases that are being discussed right now.
While Ripple, the company that was sued by SEC in December over its unregistered security sales, accuses the agency of stifling innovation in the U.S. Lubin does not think that is the case.
I don't believe the SEC is trying to squelch innovation, and he continues making other comments about it.
Ripple's adamant that XRP was treated unfairly by the SEC.
A speech by William Hinman, the SEC's former top official, in which he said that Ether was not an unregistered security, became a breeding ground for conspiracy theories about potential interests within the XRP community.
Some are convinced that Hinman had skin in the game merely because of his ties to Simpson Thatcher law firm, which is a member of the Enterprise Ethereum Alliance.
Yet the SEC made it clear that it has not taken an official position on its regulatory status, and Hinman was only expressing his personal opinion.
Ripple COBRAD is careful about his words, choice, steering clear of peddling free pass conspiracy theories.
In a recent interview, however, he said that the timing of the lawsuit was suspicious.
So now, why is everybody likes Dogecoin?
What is Brad's issue with Dogecoin?
You know, I don't know other than I think it comes down to the utility argument that you brought up where you said Elon's being smart.
Elon knows exactly what you said, right?
So he's going to get, you know, him and Mark Cuban, who's also into Doge, they're selling their merchandise, Dallas Maverick merchandise, Tesla merchandise, and they're using Doge as a means of payment.
And so it's going to drive it up.
And he's right.
The reality is Dogecoin as a means of payment transaction is better than Bitcoin on the network.
There's no doubt about it.
You know, Bitcoin right now, it's digital gold.
It's a store of value, and that's why you should buy it.
That's the use case for Bitcoin.
Ethereum, it's the smart contracts and the 2.0 eventually and all that's going to happen.
That's their story.
With Ripple, it is these superior payment transactions.
You can literally send, there's a guy named Michael Arrington, and he moved $50 million into his balance sheet, and it cost him $30.
Well, that's that was the argument that I had heard against XDRP, the drug trafficking argument.
Like, okay, you can buy $2 million of cocaine and have it in Columbia for $30 in 10 minutes.
And that's, you know, so it's going to make the drug trafficking, international drug trafficking, and all smuggling that much easier.
And then I'm saying, like, well, they're doing it anyway.
Well, it's also, it's also, listen, it's all thought about the criminal stuff because it's a public ledger.
The CIA and the FBI have come out and said that they basically hope that terrorism used the distributed ledger.
You can find them.
It's an open ledger.
And Pomp said that as well.
Pomp said that as well.
He said that this is better for the FBI because now they can catch the bad guy better.
I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what he said.
Pat, they're full of shit anyway, man, because look, they got a problem with the technology that could do this.
But then the president's son is selling a painting for $2 million.
Like, okay, and then we're just supposed to play.
This is beautiful painting.
This guy's pretty.
I mean, this guy's incredible.
I'd rather have the laptop.
Shame on you for discrediting his patient.
How dare I?
Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's a real crack artist with the paintbrush.
But I can't speak for Brad.
Just think it comes down to that utility argument.
Well, I'll read the article to you on why he said that.
So, here's the article that just came out on why he has an issue.
I think it's on page five.
Let me see here on the bottom.
Okay, here we go.
Bitcoin news.
Dogecoin is loved by all except Brad Garlingkows.
Dogecoin is arguably one of the world's most popular, most successful cryptocurrencies in the world.
Starting out as a joke roughly eight years ago, and the currency has been established as one of the most leading digital assets of today.
As a market capital, brown more than a billion dollars and has garnered attention from Elon Man, Mark Cuban.
Clearly, it's popular coin, and everyone seems to like it except Brad Garlingkow's CEO.
Ripple in a recent interview stated that the asset was not good in the long run when it came to expansion of the crypto space.
He mentioned, I'm actually not convinced, somewhat controversially, I guess, that Dogecoin is good for the crypto market.
Dogecoin has some inflationary dynamics itself that wouldn't make it reluctant to hold.
It's interesting that these words are coming from Brad, whose coin XRP was ultimately outdone by Dogecoin.
At one point, Doge eventually rose so high early this year that it became the world's fourth largest cryptocurrency by the market and beat out XRP now, though now things have calmed down a bit, pushing Doge to the side.
Garland Cow stated that the still feels Bitcoin holds the top position in crypto.
When it came down to crypto currency serving as an inflationary hedge tool, he commented: when people are concerned about holding a fiat currency that might be inflating and that's devaluing, they're looking at how can I hold other assets that won't have that same inflationary dynamic.
His main issue with Dogecoin is that currency does not employ inflationary barricades the way Bitcoin does.
As of now, Doge has approximately 132 billion units outstanding, while an additional 5 million new coins enter circulation every year.
So, I guess that's the reason why he has an issue with them in regards to inflationary barricades.
Well, XRP is, you know, it has 100 billion.
It's not going to get any more.
It's sort of a similar argument to Bitcoin.
Instead of 21 million, it's 100 billion.
But at the same time, everyone's in their tribe in crypto.
Crypto is just like a microcosm of everything else in society.
Everyone's in their tribe.
When you had Kurt on, he's a BSV guy.
That's it.
Like, you asked him, well, is there going to be two or three coins that are going to come out of this and be winners?
Yeah, no, BSV is the one true God.
You know, that was it.
Whereas I take that position.
There's, what, 7,000 coins?
Most of them are going to go away.
But there's going to be, you know, a handful that make it.
I think XRP is going to make it in the payment sector.
I think Bitcoin is going to continue to be that digital gold store of value.
And if Ethereum, if they end up figuring it out, then I think it could ultimately flip Bitcoin even.
It could flip Bitcoin even.
I think it could.
Listen, a lot of people say, oh, you're the XRP attorney and you're hating on Ether.
I have a higher investment in Ethereum than I do XRP.
This isn't about me.
This is about what's right.
It's about that reaction that you had as you were learning this, right?
And the only difference is I have a law degree and I said I can do something about it.
I read somewhere the supporters of XRP.
I saw Kutcher.
I saw Madonna, Snoop Dogg.
But the most random character, Bill Clinton.
Yeah, they.
What is Bill Clinton and XRP?
Let me tell you something about Ripple.
You know, we've already went over their defense lineup, right?
Their lawyers.
They had Bill Clinton be their keynote speaker at their annual event.
On their board just this year is a former U.S. Treasury.
Her name, Rosie something, is Rios, is on the dollars and the $100 bills.
She was the treasurer of the United States.
She's on their board.
So they have top-notch people from the industry, not just the crypto industry, but the financial industry.
Are they putting Bill Clinton on that list because he spoke at an event?
Are they putting Bill Clinton on that list because he owns XRP?
Maybe they paid him an XRP to speak.
I don't know.
I think it's more about just that list.
He's a fiat guy.
I don't know why.
Former president coming on board.
Because it's the right guy to have on your side because you're dealing with a lot of liberals on the opposing side that want to regulate the hell out of you.
And a phone call from Bill Clinton and even scarier phone calls from his wife, you kind of have to take that call and say, all right, Hillary, we'll leave XRP.
Look at that sentence that you said, man.
2021 is such a triplet.
There's a lot of liberals that want to regulate you.
Like, these words don't even mean anything anymore.
You know who owns XRP?
Tim Draper.
I know.
He owns XRP.
I saw The Wolf of Wall Street.
Jordan Belfour.
Jordan Belfour owns XRP.
And I think Jason Derulo and maybe Exhibit.
Maybe Exhibit.
I think I saw him on Twitter.
He might be my own expression.
One of my favorite exhibit songs of all time.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Back in the 90s, yeah.
But it's a shame people in the rap game only for the money and the fame.
Extra large.
Do you remember that?
Yeah, that was years ago.
And the opening was sick.
Pat, do you think, you know, and John, feel free to chime in on this?
Do you think government has always been this overtly corrupt, or are we just finally seeing it because of access to information?
I actually think this is the most annoying time to be a corrupt government official because social media is the ultimate great equalizer.
So if they control the great equalizer, which is social media, why do you think so many people out of nowhere started saying how much they hate Facebook?
I'm sorry.
Why do you hate Facebook?
Why do you hate Facebook?
Okay, so take Twitter out.
Does Trump get elected?
No.
If Twitter is not started, your president is today, your president today is Hillary Clinton.
Absolutely.
If Jack Dorsey and those guys don't start today, Twitter, your president is Hillary Clinton today.
She gave a great speech.
Her picture's on a wall, right?
And unfortunately, she would have not had the masterclass, which is a shame because that masterclass on how to handle laws would have never been there, right?
And that Newsweek magazine would have never been there because that Newsweek magazine would have been official.
State McKinnon with that great SNL opening.
So I think all of these government officials who were able to play the games back in the days, like what you're showing right now with, what do you call it?
The actions?
Yeah.
Is what's that 50 years ago?
What's that 100 years ago?
You show this right now, a person who's extremely interested in this.
Guess what's the first thing they're doing?
What are you talking about?
I'm going to Google it.
Back then, you couldn't Google it, right?
Kennedy files.
They just buried the Kennedy files for all those years.
Oswell.
Yeah.
So, you know, Bob Curzon or I, he's a former chairman of Limbra, and he sits currently, I think he, as a board member for, I think, consultant for Bain, and he was a former president with Hartford back in the days.
A credible guy, lots of experience in insurance.
Bain Capital?
Bain Capital, yeah.
Mitt Romney?
Well, it used to be Mitt Romney, and it's not been a part of that for a while.
But yeah, Bain is the top 10 biggest hedge fund in the world.
It's one of the bigger ones.
Bob sits on our board.
Bob and I are in Dallas last week.
We're having our annual big board meeting that we have, and we're having conversations.
And during lunch, he says, during dinner at Dakotas, he says, how much do you read?
Like, everything I'm talking about, like, how much do you read?
Are you always reading?
Are you always collecting data?
And we're going through it.
And he asked a question about this one guy that used to be a big insurance trainer back in the days.
And I Google him.
And I say, Tom, this guy says, yeah.
And then 30 minutes later, he says, you know, when I was coming up in the game, I couldn't get an answer to any question as quickly as you just got it.
The edge your generation has over me is any question can be answered like this.
I had to go to the library to find the articles that that guy wrote to find the book.
Access.
Because I couldn't even get the book.
You couldn't go find the book.
You had to wait a few weeks to go find who sells an older book of a guy.
Today, boom, boom, boom, boom.
So access to information.
The speed of access to information has both positive and negative.
The negative to me is we get angrier faster.
We have anxiety more than ever before.
Stress, higher before.
You know, arguments are higher because I want to fight you now.
Back in the days, I had 30 minutes till I came home to fight my wife.
Today I can fight you right now while I'm driving and texting and calling.
You're literally never off the clock.
You're never off the clock.
That is like heroin, man.
It's so addicting right now.
They used to say the average person touches this 150 times a day.
What, 150 times a day?
A couple thousand times a day, right?
But the positive side of what this has done is these politicians, the establishment, they hate this.
Yeah, but it doesn't stop them.
Well, yeah, but you know the scene where Joe Pistone got all these mobsters arrested and they all walked at him one by one by one by one.
I don't know.
I think a scene like that could be happening very soon and it needs to happen one time.
That's all needs to happen to set the tone.
Publicly.
Needs to happen one time.
Needs to happen one time.
All these guys talk about, when's the last time you saw, you know, a person that's, you know, with money, never get arrested and all this other stuff.
When's the last time you said, when's the last time you saw politicians walking up for manipulation behind closed doors and all this other stuff?
I'm going to give credit to AOC, which is something I rarely do.
You know what I used to say the other day?
She said, I don't own any stock.
Why not?
She says, I think it's not fair for people in office like myself to own and invest in any stock because we have more access to information than the rest of you do.
That's a shot at Nancy Pelosi.
That's a shot at Nancy Pelosi.
Get the best portfolio tracker of all time.
Exactly, the best portfolio tracker of all time.
TikTokers follow what her husband does next and boom, 88%, whatever the number is.
Unbelievable.
It's unbelievable.
So, you know, there's people like that that are going to annoy the hell out of the establishment.
She's a socialist.
Economically, we're completely on opposite sides.
But if there's one thing you may be on the same side with her, she's anti-establishment.
Full-on anti-establishment.
So I don't think the days of playing politics and games and all that stuff.
Can you pull up what Elizabeth Warren and Elon Musk just went through?
Did you see that Twitter war there?
That was great.
It was beautiful, man.
So Elizabeth Warren says, let's change the rigged tax code so the person of the year will actually pay taxes and stop freeloading off of everyone else.
Like she's trying to get her audience.
That's not even the best one.
He had two others.
It's not to me.
You had the rest of it?
You got to get the rest of it.
That's not it.
And Elon Musk responds and says, please don't call the manager on me, Senator Karen.
He's like, you're like that one lady that just always gets mad at everybody.
She says, you're like one of my friends, old lady moms that would always angry.
Yeah, that's right.
To answer, Gerard, to answer your question, I think Pad's 100% right.
I think the revolving door has always been there.
But they've gotten to the point where this is just blatant.
Yeah.
I mean, this is so blatant, but they did not count on the social media.
I wouldn't be sitting here right now being interviewed by you guys if it wasn't for Twitter and it wasn't for the social media, the XRP army utilizing it.
Jay Clayton, you know, we've been hitting CNBC every day.
They bring Jay Clayton on, who is a contributor to CNBC, and they ask him a question that just says, hey, your critics say there's a conflict.
And he goes, I'm not going to comment.
And then they brought him on today to get in.
And she goes, listen, everywhere I go, it's the same question.
You know, are you going to address the ethics issue?
And he goes, I'm not going to talk about pinning litigation.
There's no pinning litigation about your ethics.
We're questioning your integrity and you won't defend yourself.
That doesn't sound like you.
You were the former SEC chairman of the United States Securities Exchange Commission.
And you can't answer a few questions.
But this is kind of where I'm going with that.
This is what it half scares me and half infuriates me.
I feel like, you know, learning history from before I was alive, at least these people had the good sense to try to hide their corruption.
Exactly.
There was a fear of public retribution.
Now, we may not have had access to the information, but there was a fear like, oh my God, these people find out, we're in big trouble.
That just doesn't exist anymore.
I mean, what they're doing with the, you know, what the FTC is doing with the Pfizer shots, and yeah, we'll let you know what's in them.
We'll let you know what we knew in 55 years.
Now it's 75 years.
On its base point, I mean, that's just so insulting.
It's so infuriating that you threatened people's livelihoods.
You said, you got to get this or you're not going to be allowed to fly.
We're going to get you fired from your job unless you get this thing.
Okay, what's in it?
We'll tell you in 75 years.
What?
Like, bro, what?
And it's not just that.
It's over and over and over again, the overt corruption that they just, they do it and then they move on.
And there's literally, there's this air of like, yeah, yeah, we did it.
What are you going to do about it?
How many times has JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs been fined for manipulating gold in silver markets?
And it just keeps happening and happening.
You know, if you make a billion, you're willing to pay $100 million.
Yeah, it's a good business model.
It absolutely is.
Yeah, so the infuriate, and I don't know.
So is that on the public?
We have access to this information, but we don't hold these people accountable.
Is that on us?
Is this, have we just, has this environment just created a new brand of overtly corrupt politicians that just don't care what the public thinks?
They feel insulated from any sort of, I mean, Maxine Waters literally told people to go burn down American cities.
Literally did.
It's like, get out there.
If you see people that you politically disagree with in restaurants, make it hard on them.
You know, that's terrorism.
That's the literal definition of terrorism.
Well, I mean, using violence to promote politics is the literal definition of terrorism.
Again, that is why the people want to see an anti-establishment in the White House.
That's why half the country wants to see an anti-establishment person in the White House to see if they're going to hold those people accountable.
It's the biggest part.
Look, you know, they say people get into politics with the right intentions.
I'm going to go correct this injustice that's happening.
And you're in it for a year, three years, five years, eight years.
A re-election's coming up.
You need a favor.
You give this guy the favor.
He gives you the money.
You get re-elected.
Now you're part of the establishment.
Now you're a crusade, your cause.
You were a true believer.
You're no longer a statesman.
Now you're officially what?
You're part of the establishment.
You're done.
And they're going to hold you to it for the rest of your life.
It's game over with, right?
Okay.
This is why a person that's coming that's not part of the establishment that annoys the hell out of everybody is what America needs today.
Because if they talk about the stuff that these guys own, they go to the same country clubs.
They go to the same parties.
They go ahead and get at the same places.
They've been fraternities in college, man.
You want to pull out what Musk said?
This is the whole Twitter.
It says, stop projecting.
You remind me of when I was a kid and my friend's angry mom would just randomly yell at everyone for no reason.
Please don't call the manager on me, Senator Karen.
Just look at her.
She looks like she's not really that happy with her life.
She looks bitter and upset and this idea that Elon Musk doesn't pay taxes.
It's just like, again, it's just such gaslighting.
It's such nonsensical bullshit.
How much do you think he pays in payroll taxes alone?
How many jobs have they?
That's what I'm saying.
That's what I want to know.
How many jobs have these politicians done?
The infrastructure that, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, like, what have they added?
You know, I...
I can tell you, I grew up in Detroit, single mother, welfare, food stamps.
Growing up, I did not hate the wealthy or rich man.
I want to know what he knew.
What can you tell me that I don't know so that I can do that?
This class warfare has just gotten out of hand.
You know what I mean?
Well, they're doing it on purpose.
It's like, can you imagine that we're going to only tax unrealized gains of billionaires?
Unrealized gains?
Unrealized gains.
Unrealized gains.
Did that come out of your mouth?
That you're going to tax someone for unrealized gains?
So Elon Musk Elon Musk's stock price goes through the roof, we're going to tax him.
But then when it crashes, when there's a recall or something, he can't write it off.
Did you see the article about what's going on in LA right now?
Because you know, all these guys that are saying this stuff, sometimes they say these unrealized gains, defund the police.
That's a good idea.
And then they're like, oh, shit, we didn't say the Republicans said defund the police.
No, no, you came up with defund the police.
Yes.
And now they're all increasing their budget to hire cops.
Because in LA, did you see what happened in LA at the Grove?
Like what they have around the Grove?
Did you see what the type in LA Grove Fence?
Did you see what the LAPD put out for travelers coming to LA?
They're like, don't wear anything flashy.
If somebody tries to rob you, don't try to negotiate them.
Just give them what they want.
Look at this.
This is CNN.
Famous LA shopping center adds barbed wire-like fence to deter smashing grabs.
Wow.
This isn't.
We're talking about CNN here.
Look at this.
This doesn't make any sense.
Businesses are worried today in LA.
FYI.
Yesterday, somebody sent a story saying a famous.
Yeah, that doesn't make any sense by the wire fencing.
The Apple store in Portland.
Did you pull up the Apple store in Portland after this?
Watch this.
The wire fencing in place didn't fully deter robbery at the Grove on November 22nd when a group of 18 to 20 looters used sledgehammers and an electric bicycle to smash into the complex Nordstrom.
After hours, they managed to steal at least 5,000 of merchandise and cause $15,000 in damages through police later recovery merchandise, arrested three people in connection with the burglary.
The video, somebody sent me a video yesterday.
So check this out.
Guy walks in, takes stuff.
He's at Walmart.
They can't say anything to him.
He just walks out.
He's not running out.
He just walks out.
Then he walks out.
He ties his shoelaces outside in front of the stairs.
You're supposed to run.
That's the protocol.
He's tying his shoelaces.
I got a little bit of a cool.
I'm not going to get arrested going.
So someone says, oh, people are leaving LA.
I said, dude, you have not seen the exodus California is about to experience.
It hasn't started yet.
People think it started because Elon, you know, all these guys haven't even started yet.
Just wait.
Just wait to see what happens there.
But yeah, so these policies that you're talking about.
By the way, I want to look at the Stock Act that came up with some people are talking about that AOC has money and all this other stuff.
U.S. News did an article saying, What are Congress members trading?
In 2013, an amendment to the Stock Act came up, made some changes clouding the transparency and accessibility of Congress members' financial transactions.
Most notably, it removed the requirement for electronic filing in a searchable, sortable database of transactions.
However, one useful aspect of the legislation, which requires members to publicly report financial transactions in stocks, bonds, and other assets within 45 days, that remains, which is good.
This is why people know what Pelosi owns.
But there are still people that are skirting that, like Republican Tommy Tupperbull, the ex-football coach.
He refuses to admit what he sells all the time.
Like, he got caught selling Alibaba stock months after he sold it.
Now he's got, by the way, for people that don't want to look it up, Tommy Tubbo has some massive short puts on both Apple, Microsoft, and first quarter of 2022.
I think Mr. Tubbs became a $3 trillion company.
If you believe Tommy Tupperbull, he thinks that the first quarter of 2022 is going to be brutal.
Yeah, by the way, I share that opinion.
So this is the incrypto.
Do you share that opinion?
I had the opinion.
I also, fair disclosure, had the opinion that Bitcoin was going to run up by now.
But I think it's going to run up in the first quarter, followed by a massive sell-off on crypto, tech stocks.
How bad do you think it's going to be?
2022.
30, 30%.
So you think Bitcoin's going to drop to what, 25, 20?
30?
My prediction, Bitcoin hits over 100,000 and drops back to where it is today.
Oh, okay.
So you're not saying it's going to drop to 20 or 15 or 30 or anything like that.
I mean, it could.
I think it's going to be a massive, I think there's too much money in it right now.
But after the run-up, I think it could go from $150,000 back to 50.
Yeah, that's not something that's going to move the long play, guys.
What does Palm say?
Nearly 85% of Bitcoin owners never sell their Bitcoin.
They keep it.
They just sit on it.
So these are not guys that are churning and burning.
Of course, the other 15% is just buying it as a stock, and they're pumping dump.
But many of the true believers are hanging on to it.
Why do you think the first quarter of 2022 is going to be so bad?
Are the holiday revenues not going to be what they normally are?
Is that what the idea is here?
Like, why on earth?
I mean, it could start be happening now.
Obviously, no one can time the market.
You know what I mean?
I just think that...
Senators seem to do it pretty good.
Well, that's true.
They're talented.
They're smart.
They have degrees from Columbia University.
They seem to do it pretty good.
Yeah, it's a different kind of a world they're living in.
Let me see which other story I wanted to bring up here before we wrap up.
By the way, did you hear about Keanu Reefs, what Keanu Reeves talked about?
So interesting take on Keanu Reeves.
Did you see that one girl whose story went viral?
Yeah, with the mother.
How awesome is my mom's like, I'm about to take a picture with Keanu Reeves.
He's like, I have no idea who this guy is, but I'll take a picture with Keanu Reeves.
Whatever.
What do you mean?
It goes viral.
Here's Keanu Reeves, okay?
Matrix star Keanu Reeves owns crypto.
Skeptical of NFTs.
Says we cannot have metaverse be invented by Facebook.
Famous Hollywood actor crypto metaverse non-fungible tokens.
During the interview, Reeves commented on the metaverse and Facebook, the social media giant that recently changed his name to Meta.
Can we just not have metaverse be invented by Facebook? He said.
On the subject of non-fungible tokens, Reeves was asked whether he has seen Matrix NFTs for the upcoming Matrix Resurrection movie.
He admitted that he has not seen them and wondered if he and Moss are getting paid at all for them.
When asked what he thought about the concept of digital scarcity, Reeves laughed and added that they are still easily reproduced.
What are your thoughts on NFTs?
Well, I think the whole metaverse is, I'm trying to get my head around it.
I really am.
But like, for example, Nike, you're going to be able to go in the metaverse and go into a Nike store in the metaverse and buy a non-fungible token and then come out to the real world and then buy that real world shoe.
Yeah.
Like it's an interplay.
But I mean, do I have some mana, some sand?
I have some of those tokens, but I'm still trying to get my head around it.
You know, buying land in the metaverse.
Pat just told you, man.
If you're on your phone 2,500, 3,500 times a day, the next progression is in the phone, man.
And again, the dopamine is going to be something that our brains are not going to be able to get off of.
You're going to be able to live your life as your idealized self in the metaverse.
You want to be six foot five.
You want to have abs.
You want to dunk.
You want your girlfriend to look like Barbie.
All of that's possible in the metaverse.
It's not possible in the real world.
What do you two think of NFTs?
I think it's a beautiful way to launder money.
I don't think it's going away.
I think it's been around for a while.
I mean, if you played any video games and you would buy the additional stuff that would come with it, buy a weapon for five bucks, buy this for $10, buy this for $20.
I remember one time me and my friends, okay, Stephen Offo, were in, where were we?
We're in Panama, okay?
And we're at the Panama Canal, and my friend is sitting down on his phone playing this game.
I don't know what he clash of something.
So he's playing this game.
Clash of Titans.
Clash of Titans.
And I said, so what's going on here?
And one of the guys says, you know, he spent already $5,000 on that game.
I said, how much?
He said, $5,000.
I said, what are you doing with $5,000 on this game?
I said, get video games.
Like, I remember Street Fighter was $74.95.
I remember when he came out, he says, oh, no, this is different.
Let me tell you what I'm buying.
Look at the weapon.
Look at this.
Look at that.
Look at this.
I'm like, what are you talking about?
So if a 40-year-old decamillionaire, which is that friend of mine, that's exactly the situation he's in.
If he's spending $5,000 on a game, he's essentially buying non-fungible tokens.
So it's been around for a long, long time.
It's officially now at a point where they're trying to get the rest of the world to know that this is the direction we're going.
There's nothing you can do about it.
Here's what's screwy about what you just said.
So what you do in those games is you buy time.
Because as you increase your castle, as you increase your land, it takes longer to farm.
It takes longer to build.
Clash of clans, not titans.
Clash of clans.
Clash of Titans is better, but Clash of Clans is good too.
Anyway, so the point I'm trying to make is that in the metaverse, one of the things that if you want to get real trippy, Twilight Zone-y, the logical conclusion of this is downloading your consciousness into the metaverse.
Living forever as your idealized self, as long as you can afford to buy more time.
So as long as you can afford to buy more time.
Timberlake, what was the movie called?
Just in time.
I don't know what the movie was called.
Yeah, so I mean, but that's...
I don't think it's going away.
Look, there's two things that's going to drive NFTs and the meta.
Here's what it is.
Number one, what is your system when you lay in bed and you close your eyes?
Where do you go to?
So you're either thinking about issues you're dealing with.
You're thinking about your kids, your husband, your wife, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your mom's health, your dad's health, your business, a job interview, a project, something.
Or you're fantasizing about something.
Look, oh my gosh, how's it going to be when I go to Europe?
Your brain just goes, right?
Okay, that's a meta, essentially.
You're living in La La Land, and we've been doing this for a while, except it's your own meta that I cannot be a part of.
It's only one person's meta.
It's your meta.
And I'm concerned about the meta you want.
I don't know if I want to go to that.
I'm only not going to loudly.
Yeah, it's real sticky in my meta.
My meta is sticky.
Some people's meta, it ain't no one.
It's a whole different thing.
You don't even want to smell my meta.
Okay, but that is a form of meta, right?
And here's the other part why I don't think this is going away.
I think, you know, like somebody said, what an idiot.
Who the hell would spend $5,000?
It's called competition, man.
Capitalism is based on competition.
We like to compete.
We want to do better.
We want to be on a leader's bulletin.
We want to be ranked.
We want to have something to say, here's what I am.
As long as your imagination doesn't go away, and as long as competition is going to be the main currency, NFTN meta is not going to go away.
Dude, it's immortality.
It's so much bigger than that.
Yeah, it's immortality.
If you had the option and if you had the resources to live forever, your family live forever, would you do it?
I mean, it's not even a hypothetical question.
It may be a matter of technological advancement.
I wrote a book about it.
I wrote a book about it.
The fiction book.
You've read the book.
The book is about that.
That's partly a meta.
And it took me 10 years to finish this book.
And right now, we just finished it right now.
We're pitching it to publishers.
We just finished the, what do you call it, the marketing for the book.
And we'll be going to different publishers to see what direction we're going to go with this.
But that is essentially what you're talking about.
What happens when your meta life is so much better than your real life?
That's the problem.
Everybody's going to be the...
John, you may want to put that mic closer to you.
It's not a problem of the system.
It's the backbone of the system.
Your idealized self, your dream world, is going to be so much better than the real world.
You're never coming out with this reality.
There's going to be people who become David Thoreau, go to the woods, live deliberately.
I want to feel, I want to look at the real sky.
I want to breathe the real air.
And there's going to be those half of society that they're going to be real.
They're going to want to go skydiving.
They want real danger.
They want to feel real things.
They want to have unprotected sex.
They want to feel life.
And then there's going to be people that are in the metaverse that are safe.
They're totally controlled.
They can't say anything bad.
They have to acquiesce all their freedom to whatever controlling organism.
But the trade-off is they get to be their idealized self.
They get to do whatever they've ever dreamed of doing that they can't do in the real world.
They can do it here.
And that's the serotonin and the dopamine that that's going to cause.
I mean, right now, you've got guys that, you know, there's a great comedian that I know, Mike Saccoli, unbelievable guy.
He goes, my life is so much better in Grand Theft Auto than my regular life.
And I die 100 times an hour.
He's like, I die 100 times an hour in GTA.
My life is so much better in the health.
What percentage of people do you think prefer their imaginary life over their real life?
What do you think that is?
I mean, it's high.
Of course it's high.
So why do people do drugs?
Why do people do alcohol?
Why?
To escape reality.
I mean, we've been wanting to escape reality for a long time.
Most people's escaping of reality is video games or, you know, smoking weed or doing ecstasy and doing whatever they do.
That is their form.
I just don't want to deal with the life I currently have and there's nothing I can do about it.
So you're bitter about it.
You have a way to escape it.
So that is part of the motive and the attraction.
I can escape it and it's a different form of a drug and I'm going to be addicted to it.
That's just kind of how this thing's going to be.
I think the drug analogy is the perfect analogy.
Are your parents still alive?
If you don't want to ask no.
Okay.
Imagine if their consciousness were uploaded to the metaverse and you can go to the metaverse and have dinner with your mother whenever you wanted to.
What would that be worth to you?
A lot.
Especially if she was cooking.
Would it matter to you that the food you were eating wasn't real?
No.
Probably not, right?
Not if it was her chicken and dumplings and cornbread.
You're making me hungry, man.
It's 1053.
I mean, that's, you know, look, we think about the crazy things and we think about like, you know, the ability to fly and all this like fantasy stuff.
And that's definitely part of it.
But then there's that actual, that realization of like, you know what, man?
Like if my parents, if, you know, if my parents' consciousness gets uploaded, I mean, look, my parents are a little bit older.
I go home twice a year.
If my parents live another 10 years, I got 20 times to see my mother.
20.
2-0.
And that's the whole reason to work, people.
The whole reason to work, the whole reason to put up with the bullshit and make money is because money's worth time.
And if you can double that and see your parents four times a year, you double the amount of time you have with them.
The metaverse, you can see them forever.
Forever.
Yeah.
How many people want to have a conversation with their deceased parents?
That's the price point.
I mean, listen, the whole part about being a born-again, what is the idea that you're eventually going to see the people you love that are no longer here with you?
Well, meta in heaven.
Yeah.
Meta is a form of a secular heaven is how it's being sold.
But I want to wrap up with this story and then we go off.
It's on page two, at the bottom of page two, if you want to look at that.
It's a CNBC story.
Own everything but bubble assets, tech and crypto recommends institutional investor hall of famer, Rich Bernstein, which we know who he is.
He has got a big reputation.
He's a winner.
He's done well for himself.
On one side, he says, we have all that I would call the bubble assets, tech, innovation, disruption, cryptocurrencies.
This is Rich Bernstein who ran strategy at Merrill Lynch.
The other side of this, seesaw, you have literally everything else in the world.
I think if you're looking at 2022 into 2023, you want to be in everything else in the world side of that seesaw.
His number one pick is Energy, a group he listed as a top play coming into 2021.
Earlier this year, Bernstein called Oil the most ignored bull market.
Bernstein also sees cryptocurrency as a major problem.
Last June, he warned the rush to own Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies was becoming dangerously parabolic.
Cryptos are the biggest financial bubble ever in the history.
This is just a monster one.
Do you agree with them?
Well, it depends on the timing.
Like when he says, so for example, if Bitcoin goes from $47,000 to $150,000 and then crashes, is he right?
Well, I guess he is.
But Kathy Wood takes the opposite, right?
She says we're not in a bubble right now of Arc investing.
And so it all comes to perspective.
I don't think we've seen the parabolic run on Bitcoin that he's describing.
And I certainly don't think it's the biggest bubble ever.
Do I think everything is in a bubble?
When you pump this much liquidity into the economy, then sure, you're going to create bubbles.
And so it's all a matter of perspective.
Do I think that there's going to be some type of crash some point next year?
Yes.
You know, is that the later half?
Is that the first half, the first quarter?
I don't know.
I wish I did.
But I think he's right that we're headed for a major correction.
I just don't know when.
You know what I mean?
You know, we talk about the tech bubble.
Was tech really a bubble?
I mean, was it a bubble?
Because look at what Apple is.
1999 it was.
But I'm saying, look at what Apple is doing.
Look at what Microsoft is doing.
There's a difference between a bubble and disruptive technology.
There's a difference between a bubble and changing industries.
You know, like if somebody was like back in the day, you know, a car cost $500 a Ford Model T.
Well, I can get a horse for $25.
I'm never spending $500 for a car.
That's an asinine.
And then, you know, there's million-dollar cars now.
That drives them when he gets bored on the weekends.
Like, is that a bubble?
Is that parabolic or is it changing technology?
Like, I think you said it best.
It's a matter of perspective of time.
Like, if Ripple, if you guys settle, if you guys win this case and it goes up to $1.50, what's crazy is people will be like, it's just a 200%.
It's a 200%.
Like, that's not even good in crypto anymore.
It's like, why?
Why 10 times?
Yeah, if it's not 9,000 X, it's not worth my time.
So in that aspect of it, there's a speculation bubble.
But I don't think, I mean, if you're oil, man, I mean, with Exxon, with the activists that they have, like, yeah, look, always be in energy, always be in things that people use.
It's not sexy, you know, but you got to be in things that people use.
But do you think crypto is going away?
To me, bubble means it's going away.
Yeah.
Is real estate a bubble right now?
I think real estate is a mathematical formula, you know, meaning like if interest rates go up, real estate's going to take a hit.
You know, Goldman Sachs is predicting rates are going to go up seven times in 2022.
Wow.
That's a lot of times when Goldman says seven times.
There's no way.
Oh, listen, I in a midterm election year, you think that look at look at the political pressure that he's dealing with.
You think that did you hear what Biden said yesterday?
He says, Republicans, I just want to tell you, it's going to be a bad midterm election for you.
Did you hear him say that yesterday?
I think they're getting wrecked.
They're getting wrecked.
Well, the number is 63.
I think it's 61 or 63, the record held by the most seats to flip.
And the person that owns the record is his former boss, Barack Obama.
So we're going to see whether he's going to flip that many, like he's going to lose that many seats.
Well, I hope they lose the seats because I want to see Gary Gensler in committee answering some questions.
It'd be interesting to see that taking place.
How can people help put pressure?
What can people do that are listening to this, help put public pressure on them so that this investigation happens?
If they go to crypto, www.crypto.us, cryptolaw.us, if they go to that, there's a tab in the law.us.
Yes.
If they go to that, there's a tab, connect to Congress, and that goes to your senators and your Congress representatives, and you can put on pressure to simply say you want an investigation into this.
You want the SEC to come answer questions under oath.
These guys are skating.
Investigation into specifically?
Investigation into the SEC and the filing of this case and the way it went down and the conflicts of interest.
Conflicts of interest.
And here's the thing.
Only good can come from an independent investigation.
Because when the, let's say, Pat Gerard, let's say that there was no actual crime.
But when the appearance of impropriety rises to the level that it destroys public confidence.
Credibility, yeah.
Right?
Then if you do an investigation and it's fair and it's independent and you come back and say no crime was committed, no quid pro quo, you know, but they could have done disclosures, done this better, fine.
If there is a crime committed, if there was a quid pro quo, then justice is done.
What was the tweet that you said yesterday?
You had a tweet yesterday.
Hey, let's let the truth.
Hey, let the truth fall where it may.
Just a matter of time.
Well, John, I'm glad we were able to make this work.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
We never do podcasts on Wednesday, but we did it because we wanted to have a sit-down.
We can have a good.
I hope the audience has enjoyed it and learned just as much as we have.
Folks, if you don't follow John on Twitter, he posts stuff there regularly and he's very active.
I suggest you go follow him on Twitter.
What's your handle on Twitter, by the way?
John E. Deaton 1.
John E. Deaton 1.
Deaton 1.
Yep.
Okay.
John E. Deaton 1 on Twitter.
You can find them there as well as we put the link there, cryptolaw.us, cryptolaw.us, to follow what's going on over here.
John, appreciate you for coming out.
Folks, tomorrow, we are with Danielle DeMartino Booth, same time tomorrow podcast three times this week.
We won't be doing it next week, but tomorrow we'll be at Danielle.
