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Oct. 19, 2023 - Dr. Oz Podcast
42:11
10 Years Stalked! - Celebrity Targets and Stalking Safety Tips | Dr. Oz | S11 | Ep 61 | Full Episode
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Time Text
Followed, watched, and living in fear.
It was terrifying.
It was psychological warfare.
The stalker she never saw coming.
Did you ever suspect that the stalker might be someone really close to you?
And a shocking update.
I've lost jobs.
He sent death threats to bosses.
On an infamous celebrity stalker.
The Kardashians served their restraining order, and then Gwyneth Paltrow had hers.
Coming up next...
Season 11 starts now.
I became a doctor to help people heal.
Now I'm using the same science and medicine to take on true trauma.
Today, an invisible crime that often falls on deaf ears until it's too late.
Imagine being watched and followed.
It happens to an estimated 4.5 million victims a year.
From celebrities to everyday people like you and me.
No one is immune.
19 million people are stalked in their lifetime.
It's a lot of people.
And approximately one in six women will experience stalking at some point in their life.
So what happens when someone begins to stalk you?
Today we're meeting one woman who was stalked and tormented for years on end.
You'll be shocked to find out who her stalker really was.
Take a look.
Stalker, a person who harasses or persecutes someone with unwanted, obsessive attention.
It's a term we tend to associate with celebrity fixations turned dangerous, and one of the reasons so many stars hire bodyguards.
Stars like Catherine Zeta-Jones, Madonna, Jennifer Garner, Salma Hayek, and Rihanna, who have all faced the darkness of an obsessive stalker while living in the spotlight.
Sandra Bullock even had a terrifying encounter with stalker Joshua James Corbett, who broke into her house, forcing Bullock to hide in the closet and call police.
But stalkers don't just target celebrities.
According to the National Center of Victims for Crime, more than 85% of stalking victims know they're stalker.
11% had been stalked for five years or longer, and the vast majority of victims are not famous.
Like Sarah, who at age 13 attracted the unwanted and bizarre attention of an unknown stalker.
As a preteen, she began receiving dozens of pornographic images in the mail.
Eventually, some would include love notes written in red ink.
As she aged, her stalker began hacking her email, her boyfriend's email, stealing her diary and her underwear, as well as forwarding personal emails between her and her now husband out to friends.
For nearly 10 years, Sarah continued to endure this invisible harassment until one final package would ultimately expose her stalker, someone she never would have suspected.
Joining me now is investigative correspondent Maroskeva-Campo.
Why, why, why is it so difficult for women like Sarah to put these perpetrators, these stalkers, behind bars and keep them there?
Yeah, that's a really important question.
You know, the legal definition of stalking varies from state to state, but it almost always requires a pattern of behavior that's intended to cause fear or suffering.
And the pattern part is what's important, because it's hard for a lot of people to notice that it's a pattern.
They tell themselves that they're being paranoid or that maybe it's a coincidence, and then they have to be able to demonstrate that pattern to law enforcement.
You ask about why it's so hard to keep people in jail.
The laws, frankly, the punishments and the penalties are often really inadequate.
The individual offenses can be treated as misdemeanors.
You look at Sandra Bullock's case.
That man broke into her home, and he was given probation and a protective order, not a jail sentence.
So who's most at risk of getting stalked?
Sadly, this is something that can affect anyone.
This is not just something that affects celebrities.
Those who are most at risk of being stalked are women who have just gone through a breakup or a divorce because the stalker is then seeking some kind of revenge for being rejected.
And you have to take these cases very seriously because on their own, they can be terrifying, but they can also escalate to something far more dangerous.
A lot of murder cases start as stalking cases.
So if someone thinks they're getting stalked, what are some things that might make sense right now, understanding how challenging it can be?
Yeah.
Stalking is all about power, so it's very important not to just shrug it off and to hope it'll go away on its own, because the stalker is getting something from the act of stalking.
So the first thing you want to do is document everything.
Every text message, voicemail, email.
You want to write down instances where your stalker just happens to be in the same place where you are.
And then you want to get on record with that.
You want to report it to law enforcement every time, because remember, you're trying to demonstrate a pattern.
And the third thing, and this is really important, do not communicate with your stalker at all, even if you're telling them to get lost.
Because that's giving them an interaction that they're craving and it's going to encourage more communication.
You want to document it and you want to report it.
So counterintuitive.
It's the first thing I would do anyway.
People seek a reward of contact.
Even if it's hostile contact, you don't want to communicate with them.
Mara, thank you.
So one woman, one woman endured nearly 10 years of torment from an unknown stalker.
She had no clue who it was, but it would consume her life in ways that she had never imagined possible.
Joining me now is Sarah.
Thanks for being here, and thanks for sharing your story.
Thank you, Dr. Oz.
So let's just go back to before the stalking started.
What was your life like?
My life was pretty normal growing up.
My parents were divorced, so I was being raised by my mother.
I have an older brother.
We lived in the suburbs.
Just kind of a regular middle-class life.
First sign that something was wrong in that normal middle class life, was it?
It came in a package.
Right.
I was 13 years old, and I went outside to check the mail, and I got this package, and on the return address portion, it said the name of my junior high, and it said the letters J-A-G, Jag, which the mascot of our school were the Jaguars, so I thought this must be something from school.
I had just...
Tried out for the cheerleading squad, so I was excited to get this package.
But when I opened it up, it contained about an inch thick of black and white photocopied graphic pornography.
Oh my goodness.
Right.
Do you think it was meant for you?
I do.
It was addressed to me.
Oh, it had your name on it as well.
Exactly, yes.
Oh my goodness.
But no information as to who might have sent it.
This would go on for nine long years.
Imagine being 13 years of age, and for nine years you're getting these kind of messages.
Countless pornographic emails, several perverted packages filled with sexual objects.
I'm putting on the screen some of the notes to what actually happened.
Additionally, lingerie, underwear, her diary would randomly go missing from inside her own home.
What was it like, especially at that young age, when you're not quite mature as to the workings of the world, to receive these objects in the mail endlessly?
It was terrifying.
It was violating.
And it was confusing.
I was not the kind of person at that age or now to put myself out there in any type of a sexual or flirtatious way.
So I knew I hadn't invited any of this kind of attention.
And I had no idea why anyone would want to impose this on me.
Right up next, how Sarah Stalker was finally caught.
And you will not believe who it turned out to be.
That's next.
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We're going to show you that dinner could be as simple as set it and forget it.
Michael Simon drops by the dish.
He's making his chicken meatball bourguignon, you guys.
And he's whipping up some winter dinner magic.
You need food that's going to keep you warm.
That's coming up tomorrow.
We're back investigating the terrifying realities of being stalked for years on end.
Sarah was tormented for nearly 10 years by an unknown stalker.
She would anonymously receive countless pornographic emails, several perverted packages filled with sexual objects.
So you're still a little girl, basically.
You're getting all these things coming at you.
How did your parents respond to this ongoing harassment?
They were just as horrified as I was.
So after the initial package we made a report with the police and after every subsequent incident we would make a report with the police.
So despite these multiple documents you filed with the police, complaints against your stalker, why was it so hard to obtain justice?
I think because when you send something through the mail and there's no return address, it's so difficult to track.
And at that time, you know, this was the mid to late 90s that this was all going on.
And yes, the internet was there, but it wasn't everything online as we have now.
So I think we were just a little bit more adrift as to how to actually track down who was behind this.
These stalkers can be very calculating, diabolical.
How did you finally track down the perpetrator?
How did you capture the bad guy?
Well in 2005 things were really escalating.
I was receiving more and more emails and eventually a package arrived on my doorstep and I opened up this package and it contained a sex toy.
I was again horrified.
I called my husband.
He was at work and he was not able to come to my assistance at that time so the next person I called was my stepfather because he worked right around the corner from my apartment and he came rushing to the scene to help me file an additional police report.
Well, what he didn't know was that his secretary at the time, as part of her job, she would open his mail.
And previously, a few weeks or even months before, she had opened a package with this exact same object in it.
And he had told her...
As he was on his way to help me, he said exactly what had happened and exactly what I received.
So his secretary put two and two together and realized he was probably the one who had been behind this the whole time.
So she went and filed a police report that led to the eventual discovery of it being him.
Isn't that amazing, everybody?
This is a perfect example of the power of one, how one person can make a difference.
Here's a woman as secretary, as you describe her.
So she turned in her boss to the police, which takes a lot of guts.
She connected the dots very cleverly.
We all have that ability.
And she used her instincts to take a chance and contact folks who could help everybody out.
And she's not to be right.
So just looking back on this, and I'm sure, did you ever suspect That your stepfather might have been the stalker.
Did you ever think that the stalker might be someone really close to you?
Not initially, no.
But as time went by and I began to sort of observe my relationship with him, because I was suspicious of everyone, you know, little things would just add up to where it made it seem like it could only be him.
Because who else had the access, you know, to my journals in my home or to my underwear drawer in my home?
Eventually, when I was receiving harassing emails, my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time, was able to track an IP address.
And it was coming from my hometown, so I knew it was someone in my close vicinity.
And I would sometimes get some off feelings about him, but those are easy to brush off, too.
Give me an example of an off feeling.
Sure.
He would like to give me hugs and he would like to give me like a big bear hug.
I just remember being really kind of creeped out by that and feeling like I wish he wouldn't hug me so tight.
Feeling like he got a little too much out of that and I just didn't like the way I felt.
Do you feel that your stepfather manipulated you to get away with this?
Yes, I think there was a lot of mental manipulation going on so that even by the time I was pretty actively suspecting him and maybe I would drop hints to say, Dad, don't you think this looks like it could be you?
He was very good at deflecting that suspicion and saying, Look at all the things I've done for you.
Look at how I paid for your college education and your wedding and bring up these benefits that he'd given me in order to deflect any suspicion.
And so, but I really feel that that was a manipulation tactic to almost, as they call it, gaslight me.
You know, convince me I'm the crazy one.
So one issue, of course, within the family, this causes big problems.
How did your mom deal with this reality?
It was a big fallout for her.
It was devastating.
And she initially really did not want to see that it was him.
I had gone to her prior to his arrest and I had said, look at all the evidence.
Don't you think it kind of looks like it's probably him?
But at that point she was not ready to hear that.
So since that time, of course, she's dealt with a lot of grief and guilt and she's doing much better now.
But yeah, at the time it was really hard to see.
Are you reconciled now?
Yes.
Good.
So Gary Hardy was finally arrested in 2005 and he pleaded guilty to burglary, child pornography, aggravated arrest and stealing from people related to his business.
He is in prison, but he will be released within the next five years.
Knowing that stalkers can become dangerous, how has this affected you?
The knowledge that he's going to be out and about.
Yeah, I do have fear about that.
Fear not just for myself, but for my family.
I have three children.
You know, I think all I can do is protect myself as far as contacting a victim advocate, getting an order of protection against him, equipping my home with a security system.
But I have to just live my life.
I'm not going to run away out of fear.
I think you've done the right thing.
Thank you for joining us.
Up next, are you at risk of being stalked?
We're going inside the twisted mind of a stalker, so stay with us.
We've been revealing the shocking story of one woman who was stalked for nearly 10 years by her own stepfather.
And what shocked me the most about this story that we just heard is that Sarah Stalker was someone who was supposed to protect her, yet he was pretending the entire time.
Joining me now is forensic criminologist Dr. Casey Jordan.
Take us inside the mind of this stalker.
How does this work, especially considering he was the stepfather?
Right.
And there's different kinds of stalkers.
And in Sarah's case, she did not know who he was for 10 years.
But it always comes down to control.
And they have a sexual fantasy going on in their head.
And in her case, she didn't know it was their stepfather, but that control progressed.
To possession and finally obsession.
I mean, one of the things he centered with pornography was, I love you, I want you, I need you.
It was like a trajectory.
Now, in retrospect, he was probably what we call a hebophile.
Different than a pedophile because their aberrant sexual interest is in adolescent children, usually about 11 to 14 or 15 years old.
So this kicked in, even though he'd been in the house when she was a child, when she turned 13, that's when the packages started to arrive.
And that's when his fantasies really started to spiral out of control.
But he knew it was wrong and aberrant, so he kept it at arm's length with the packages and with the emails, but it lasted for 10 years and it could have kept going if they hadn't caught him.
So how does a victim in the modern era fight back against a stalker?
What are the tactics that work?
Well, in her case, it was very difficult because she didn't know who it was.
And this is really important because he was sending packages and breaking into her house, stole her marital lingerie, sent her a sex toy.
It was psychological warfare, basically saying, don't be with your husband.
Use this.
I've taken your marital lingerie.
I'm interfering in your marriage now.
So the key is to surround yourself with support, and she did that.
But the problem was, she was seeking support in her family, and the culprit was right in her family.
So talk about it.
Don't let them get under your skin and get the police involved.
So you've done all that, but we've just heard that it's very difficult sometimes to get the police to do the right thing by you.
So how do you actually defeat the stalker, get him out of your life, and keep him out of your life?
Okay, first you have to figure out who they are.
And getting the police is critical.
And as we've discussed, having the evidence, making sure that every single email you keep, if you have a physical stalker, you need to immediately keep your phone out, get ready to hit record, and record them.
If they are sending you emails, keep them.
Make sure that you email yourself if you receive a package to time, date, stamp what the evidence is.
And don't be afraid to get help and counseling.
You need to surround yourself by a support network.
So many of our viewers write in, they say, you know, I think I do all the right things.
I don't feel like law actually protects me adequately.
And it's not the police, not the police's fault.
That's how the laws are right now.
What can victims do to feel safe again?
Well, if they have not yet identified or caught the stalker, I'm telling you that having that support network, and there are support groups for people who are victims of stalking, make sure you do not give up on the police at any cost.
And unfortunately, you have to suspect people in your inner intimate circle.
I mean, in retrospect, Sarah's mother did know that her husband had an issue with sex addiction.
She just never imagined that her daughter would be a victim of that.
So look to your inner circle, and mothers, anyone, look at who you're in a relationship with and make sure you're protecting your own children.
That's the biggest takeaway from this.
Kick the tires.
Absolutely.
Thanks, Casey.
We'll be right back.
Coming up, we have a shocking update on an infamous stalker who has targeted Ivanka Trump, Gwyneth Paltrow, and many more women.
by Matt Wahoo.
We'll be back on the streets soon.
We now have a shocking update on an unrelenting stalker whose many targets have included Ivanka Trump, Kim Kardashian, Gwyneth Paltrow.
And a casting director named Lenora Clare.
After Lenora bravely opened up on this show about the terror Justin Masser put her through, he pleaded guilty to stalking, and he was sentenced to four years in prison.
But now, he's due to be freed early.
He could be getting out on the streets again any day now.
Take a look at the eight years of hell Lenora has had to endure.
My name is Justin Masler, but also my angelic name is Cloud Starchaser.
So like in Superman, it's like Justin Masler is like Clark Kent, and then Cloud Starchaser is the real version of like Cal Elsie.
Lenora Clare attracted the unwanted attention of a deranged serial stalker, a reportedly homeless man with schizophrenia named Justin Masler, also known as Cloud Starchaser.
She first met him at her Los Angeles Gallery Open.
So he came to my gallery, and he was wearing a space suit.
This is the actual picture from the first day you met him.
I thought he was, you know, sort of doing a performance art piece that I didn't know was happening.
And we had some conversation, and I could tell he was really intelligent, but quirky was the first sort of...
But then I started realizing it wasn't just quirky, something was definitely off.
He looked me in the eye and he goes, and I'm gonna stalk you.
Justin Masser would send her over 4,000 bizarre and threatening emails, texts, and tweets over the next eight years.
I literally would wake up in the morning, check my rape or death threat that I got, and I would track the IPs so I would know where he was located because he bounces around the country.
So my entire day, from the moment I woke up, would be determined by if he was in the state or if he was far away.
I could breathe a little bit.
Lenora dreaded how all this would end, and if it would ever end.
This is something I have to deal with my whole life.
I always say to people, stalking only ends when one of the two parties dies.
Justin Master, who sometimes goes by the name Cloud Starchaser, was sentenced to four years in prison at the beginning of 2019. But he's set to be released any day now.
I'll get to how that's been possible, Nora.
Thank you for joining us.
How's your year been without Master in your life?
It's been incredible.
I got married about two weeks ago.
Congratulations.
Yeah.
That's been wonderful.
But, you know, obviously, I can't ignore the reality of what's about to happen.
In California, where I live, we have Proposition 57, which people probably aren't familiar with.
I don't know if you know much about it.
Please educate everybody.
Sure.
So Prop 57, I see why people voted for it.
It was very misleading to the public.
It was sort of sold as, you know, people with nonviolent offenses get early release, which when I hear that sounds great, people who are nonviolent.
But what people don't understand is that the crimes that fall under nonviolent include rape of an unconscious person, stalking, and a large variety of crimes which are, in my opinion, very dangerous and, in fact, violent.
So under Prop 57, they're eligible for early release.
And we're not talking good behavior.
It's automatically.
So even though I got him since I was here last on felony stalking Max, which is incredible, I got Justice, which is something that most people in my position never get.
And I'm never losing sight of that.
But instead of the four years, which is what I was supposed to get, it was automatically two.
And so he'll be out early December.
So how are you preparing for his release?
Any day now?
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question.
I do all the sort of risk minimization that one can do.
I live in a secure building now.
I'm sort of emotionally preparing myself as much as one can.
But, you know, the reality is there is only so much that you can do.
It doesn't seem fair.
Why is that your burden when you've already proven that he's a threat to you?
At least you perceive that to be the case.
It's acknowledged.
You're absolutely correct.
It's completely consumed my life.
I've lost jobs.
He sent death threats to bosses.
And people don't realize that when you're truly being stalked, it just encroaches every aspect of your life.
When you were here last time, you said that you felt afraid to do the important things you want to do in life, like have kids, be in a long-term relationship, get married.
Do you still feel that level of fear from this man?
Yeah, I mean, so after, so if you remember my story, I had to catch my own stalker, right?
And so when he was there, finally in jail, the Kardashians served their restraining order, and then Gwyneth Paltrow had hers because I think he tried to kidnap her children from school.
So we have that.
He also tried to get my dog from the dog groomer.
So when you sort of factor these things in, I can minimize my risk, but something like having a child, there's only so much you can do.
And I don't, you know, have the access to things like constant security that a celebrity like Gwyneth Paltrow would have.
So yeah, of course, I really don't think I can have children because of it.
It's just not something that I feel comfortable doing.
I would think Gwyneth and Kim and everyone will be up in arms this is happening.
It just seems, it's one of those rules where you're looking around wondering if there's a camera watching you.
It can't possibly be real.
I want to bring in forensic psychologist Dr. Chris Mohandy.
Chris, thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thanks for joining us.
So Chris' case is interesting, Chris' story is interesting because, Lenore, he's featured your case in his wonderful new book.
It's called Evil Thoughts, Wicked Deeds.
And when we read that someone is sentenced for four years, even if it's shortened a little bit, you still think it's directionally in the right spot.
The man was put in prison and released the same year.
So what's the point of saying it's a four-year term, and why aren't the punishments harsher for stalkers who we know, and your book highlights, are dangerous people often?
Well, in California, as Lenora was saying, there are all these new rules and ways of earning credit for time served, and the time you're awaiting your trial is credit for time served.
So there's all these formulas, and California is a bit lenient, to say the least, when it comes to this.
So there are these problems, and that's what People like Lenora have to navigate and it becomes a real problem and a real issue because no sooner they end, then you're already planning, okay, now what am I doing when they get out?
What's my safety plan?
And you hear the trauma, you know, thank goodness you've moved on in your life and you managed to get married.
I'm hoping someday, you know, that she reclaims even more power and feels like, you know, she can have a full life.
Just tap into your expertise, Chris, on Justin Masler.
You've interviewed a lot of stalkers.
Yes.
How does Cloud Star Chaser compare to other folks you've had to speak to?
He's right up there with other dangerous celebrity stalkers like Steven Spielberg stalker, Jonathan Norman, like Madonna stalker, Robert Dewey Hoskins.
These are individuals that are a very unique group who are not just writing from a basement someplace, but they feel compelled to move, to pursue, to get into the same space and into actions that are driven by their delusions.
That's what makes them so resolved.
So when your case was first raised with authorities, calling up and complaining, they told you to change the color of your hair, to get off the internet, I don't know how that's going to help.
When Chris got involved in the case, it changed everything.
If I understand correctly, the head of the LAPD management unit that was in charge of your case told Chris that he was on a camping trip.
Then after he got back, they started investigating.
Am I getting this right?
Chris changed my life.
I mean, people weren't taking...
It's the same crime that was happening, but nobody was taking me seriously.
I kept saying to people, this man could kill me, could kill other people, and nobody was listening.
It wasn't until he reviewed the footage that anybody listened.
The footage was super important, and at that point, a phone call was made to the Threat Management Unit, which is an amazing unit that was designed just for cases like this.
It came out of the death of Rebecca Schaefer, and the idea is proactively work the case.
Well, unfortunately, there's been some management changes, and they had a person that was in charge that didn't get the mission.
And when we got a hold of this person, he said he was going on a camping trip, we're like, uh-uh.
That's not how this is supposed to work.
And thankfully, with a lot of pressure from the media, myself, from the compelling footage that we had, we were able to leverage that into an immediate action plan, which was necessary.
He was scooped up, I think, in Utah.
And from that point forward, he's been monitored in one fashion or another by different...
He did break out of the mental facility, though, in Utah.
We did put him there, but he did break out.
Where would you be with Chris?
You say he saved your life, but a lot of it was you didn't seem to be taken seriously like so many victims.
Yeah, I talk about that a lot.
I mean, I recognize the amount of privilege I have.
You know, working in entertainment, I have access to, you know, being on television and media and then working with Congressman Schiff and things that not everybody has access to, right?
Even just getting to someone like Chris to review what I have.
I have stuff that other people don't have.
Some of those people would never have even had that.
The thing is, I tell people all the time when we talk about this constantly, is you have to be your own advocate.
You know, you have to keep knocking on the doors.
If law enforcement isn't taking you seriously, just keep at it, keep at it, because it's your life and your loved one's life, and you can't just let it go.
You've been helping other people as a victim rights advocate, which kudos to you for making that happen.
Yeah, thank you.
I also, I pulled GPS trackers off cars.
I do human shield with women getting restraining orders.
It's become a huge part of my life, yeah.
All right, coming up, from shocking serial killers to O.J. Simpson, Dr. Chris Mohandy is revealing information you need to know from the minds of some of America's most infamous criminals.
You will not believe these interviews.
-Athleisurewear.
Trendy, comfy, and moldy?
Your sports bra had a germ score of 993. How long is too long to wear your athleisure wear?
All new Oz.
That's coming up tomorrow.
The cyanide was easy.
They'll just die.
How would you administer the cycle?
Through IVs, through the gastric tube, into the stomach, by syringe.
You could use it through the hemorrhoid.
Put it in a hemorrhoid and it wouldn't be caught.
You could put it under the armpit or the back of the neck.
Or a bed sore that's really bad.
You could put the needle in and no one would ever know there was a needle marked there.
I'm back with forensic psychologist and author of Evil Thoughts, Wicked Deeds, Dr. Chris Mohandy.
That was footage of Chris' interview with Donald Harvey, so-called angel of death killer, who claimed to have murdered 87 people when he was a nurse's aide.
Though the actual number may be closer to 37, it's a lot of lives thought.
What did you learn about Harvey's motivations?
He was so deadpan describing how he would poison these folks, many of them older and disabled, to death.
Very matter of fact.
His stated motivation is some sort of mercy killing.
The real motivation is to play God and the enjoyment of the power over life and death.
I'm just curious what makes you tick.
You know, you get into some of these discussions with folks who They're dangerous, but you disarm them.
For example, when OJ was fleeing, you remember that Bronco chase in Los Angeles?
You were the one who went into OJ and got him to surrender.
I was part of the negotiation process.
I was coaching the negotiator.
We were in the doorway.
And we used what we had, which was you've got hundreds of people at the base of the street cheering for him.
You've got all the people with signs on the road.
I was gathering information as I went in.
There were the full-size statues of O.J. in the backyard.
You've got pictures of himself all over the walls.
Narcissism was a big issue.
People still liked him, clearly, and we used that.
You know, Mr. Simpson, people still like you.
You're still a hero to many.
And so the hopelessness that he felt over the situation that he was in, we used all of that as part of the negotiation process to give him hope that people still loved him.
That was what was important to him.
It wasn't that his ex-wife had been killed and this other man, Ron Goldman, had died.
It was, what's going to happen to me and what do people think about me?
And we pumped up his narcissistic ego.
Of all the people that you've been able to get close to, who's the most dangerous, most evil person that you spent time with?
There's a guy that I'm still corresponding with that's probably good for up to 27 murders.
And he has only been held responsible for one.
Unfortunately, he's still locked up.
But he enjoyed killing.
He was a sadist.
He's also a bit of a cannibal and a vampire.
He liked drinking blood.
He was sexually aroused by all these things and has not one bit of conscience about any of it.
Enjoyed taking life, playing God, if you will.
Are you trying to get him for some of the additional murders?
Yes.
We're still looking into it.
We've been going at it now for about 20 plus years, just kind of laying the groundwork for it.
But clearly he's good for more than the one that he was convicted of.
But that's part of, you know, what you do in these cases.
They have no statute of limitations and there should be no limitation in what you do to pursue and get the truth.
And you can't share his name because you're actively investigating him?
It's an active investigation, yes.
Dr. Chris Mohandy once sat face to face with one of the most prolific racist serial killers of all time, a man who murdered over 20 people, and he's the one who paralyzed Hustler publisher Larry Flint.
Coming up, find out what happened when that racist serial killer confronted Chris about the color of his skin.
Stay with us.
If a person who goes around in different areas Every time, just about, it was a local man.
You know, never a curse of them that some dude could be popping in from out of town doing that and leaving.
You see what I'm saying?
They always look for somebody local.
That was footage of serial killer Joseph Paul Franklin speaking to forensic psychologist Dr. Chris Mohandy.
Now, Franklin was a serial killer who's a racist.
He murdered over 20 people in a cross-country killing spree in the late 70s.
He also shot Hustler magazine publisher Larry Flint and civil rights leader Vernon Jordan.
Now, at one point in your interview, and I'm, again, watching how meticulous, how thoughtful he is about how he tricks law enforcement.
But then he looks at you And he says, you know, you look sort of dark, Chris.
How did that play out?
Well, the big worry I had was would he even talk to me because, you know, I'm of mixed ancestry and that's one of his big issues.
But it wasn't until a few minutes in that he said that to me.
And I had just gotten back from Hawaii and I said, well, I just got back from Hawaii.
I'm kind of tan.
He says, you didn't even send me a postcard.
And then we moved right on into the rest of the interview.
So he was just looking to check the box because the attention at this point was more important than his racial views.
If you had said you were, you know, a mixed descent, what would he have done?
My concern was, if I'd said that, that he would have shut down the interview, potentially.
Or, I'm not sure, but my big concern was that he would shut down the interview.
He would hate you or hurt you.
So, Larry, I mean, Flint, why would he shoot the publisher of Huster?
He was a white person.
He targeted Larry Flint because Larry Flint had the first mixed-race Uh, pictorial in a pornographic magazine.
Um, so, uh, that's why he targeted Flint.
So when he saw this pictorial that depicted a mixed race couple, um, in an adult situation, he said to himself, I'm gonna kill that guy.
And that was his, you know, kind of internal dialogue.
And that's why he targeted Flint.
So getting credit for all of his murders was very important to Joseph Paul Franklin.
Take a look at what happened when Chris asked him how many people he had killed.
What is your total number as you, as you I would say around 20-something above 20s.
23. That's the count I've got.
It was so eerie to watch Franklin settle on that number 23. He's meandering around almost like a kitten playing with a mouse.
And then all of a sudden he pounces on that number 23. What did that moment tell you about him?
Well, he knew the number and he was toying with it.
But you also look at his facial expressions and he's enjoying.
He's savoring it.
He's proud of himself.
And it's bragging.
And he's not even referring to them as people.
23, that's the count I got.
So there's no sense of the humanity of the lives that he's taken.
He does not look at the people whose lives he took as people.
And yet he did not think he was a serial killer.
No, he's too good to be a serial killer because that's reserved for people like Ted Bundy who are beneath him.
He preferred the term multiple slayer because he had a higher purpose.
His racism, his rant.
Exactly.
So Chris has worked with the LAPD and the FBI for decades, but when he was just 24 years old, he was faced with a patient who wanted to shoot up his place of work.
So often on this show, I search for redemption.
I help people find their health back, but I also try to figure out if people are fixable.
What did that experience teach you when you were a young'un still?
I hadn't even earned my PhD yet.
I was working in this private practice, getting my hours for licensure, you know, moonlighting a little bit.
And as an outpatient practice, this guy comes in, he was upset about how he'd been treated at work.
He had done what he thought was the right thing, talked about some cost overrun issues, reported it.
At that point, he perceived he'd been mistreated.
He got tunnel vision and was convinced that his life had been ruined.
His life had not been ruined, but in his own mind it had.
And so he hatched this plan to kill a bunch of the people at his workplace that were behind this, behind the mistreatment he perceived that he'd received.
He bought an Uzi on the black market, and he had a list.
And if his last hearing for a worker's cop case had not gone the way he wanted, he was going to kill people.
He's telling me this.
I was like, I didn't even have any idea what I was supposed to do, because I'd never encountered anything like that.
I was scared to death.
But we worked with him.
And after a few sessions, he was able to see the big picture.
He got rid of the gun.
And those ideas were gone.
And what I learned from that experience is that there is hope for many people if they're having these kinds of urges.
If they get help, they can not make the irreversible error and mistake that negatively affects everybody's lives, that is affected by the violence, his own life.
And he went about his life once again happy with his family, but he would have ruined the lives of many people and his own life.
And the redemption is that he didn't do it, and he made the right decision.
He got help, and it made a difference.
He didn't even sell the Uzi.
Yeah, he bought the Uzi for $1,800 on the black market, and when I asked him about what happened to it after he decided not to, he says, oh, I dropped it over the side of this boat, you know, between L.A. and Catalina.
You paid $1,800 for it.
He says, I didn't want some crazy person to get a hold of it.
Yeah.
Yeah, deep insight.
You've got a message in Evil Thoughts, Wicked Deeds, your book, about the dark urges people feel.
Share it.
I figured some people might be reading this book that may actually have entertained these kinds of thoughts and the truth is there are people that care out there that can make a difference and if you disclose that you're having these kinds of urges, that you're upset, You can get help.
And if you're a person that knows somebody that's having problems, if you tell somebody, you know, intervention can be done to prevent the violence.
So see something, say something works, and stepping forward to get yourself help will also make a difference.
Chris believes social media is creating more dangerous minds.
Everyone wants the world safer.
Would it really work if we change social media?
Is it making it worse?
I think that social media is giving a platform for many of our offenders that want notoriety.
And I think that there's a responsibility that goes with having these platforms to deny that notoriety to people that want it for doing terrible things.
So yes, I do think that social media plays a role.
I think that we can still have the freedom and enjoyment and all the benefits of it with responsibility.
We may have to erase people.
That may be the penalty if that's what you crave the most, and that's why you're murdering.
Anonymity, yes.
Chris Mahondi's book, Evil Thoughts, Wicked Deeds, is out now.
Pick it up.
You'll learn a lot about what's going through the minds of these dangerous folks.
We'll be right back.
Athleisure wear.
Trendy, comfy, and moldy?
Your sports bra had a germ score, 993. How long is too long to wear your athleisure wear?
All new Oz.
That's coming up tomorrow.
On the next true crime, the controversial death of 27-year-old Ellen Greenberg has rattled minds for years.
She was found stabbed to death 20 times inside her locked apartment.
Her death was originally classified as a homicide, then it changed to suicide, leaving many to question what actually happened to Ellen Greenberg.
27-year-old Ellen Greenberg was a first-grade teacher in Philadelphia.
She and her boyfriend of three years had just become engaged and began planning their wedding.
January 26, 2011, Ellen's school let out early due to an oncoming blizzard.
On her way home, she filled up her gas tank.
She was at home with her fiancé until 4.45 p.m., when he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment complex.
When he arrived back to the apartment less than an hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from the inside.
He claims he banged on the door and received no response.
Over the next 22 minutes, he would try to convince Ellen to open the door through text messages.
At 6.33 p.m., her fiancé says he forced open the door to find Ellen dead on the floor of the kitchen, stabbed 20 times in the chest, neck, and head.
There was a knife still lodged in her chest.
Ellen was pronounced dead at 6.40 p.m.
Investigators evaluating the scene and her autopsy ultimately stated that she died by suicide.
On the next true crime, Ellen's heartbroken parents speak out on why they believe she was murdered and the painstaking years they've endured trying to find answers.
Was Ellen Greenberg's death truly a suicide or was it murder?
I'll take a look at the hard evidence.
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