Ryan Holiday isn’t exactly who you would expect to advocate philosophical beliefs, but the media strategist has devoted his life to the practice of Stoicism. In fact, many argue he’s redefined what it means to be stoic in his book, “The Obstacle is The Way.” Holiday has become somewhat of a guru in demand, sharing his wisdom with NFL stars, hip-hop artists - even Silicon Valley entrepreneurs. In this interview, Ryan shares his beliefs, the easy way we can all incorporate Stoicism in our lives, and what it can mean for our success. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Stuff's gonna go wrong, and that's actually an opportunity to be better in some other way, maybe a way that you didn't intend.
you know, someone is rude to you, obviously you wouldn't have chosen that, but now it's an opportunity to practice forgiveness.
Hey everyone, I'm Dr. Oz and I'm Dr. Oz and this is the Dr. Oz Podcast.
Hey, everyone.
I'm Dr. Oz, and this is the Dr. Oz Podcast.
He's not exactly who you would expect to advocate ancient philosophical beliefs, but media strategist turned whistleblower Ryan Holiday has devoted his life to the practice of stoicism.
In fact, many argue he's redefined what it means to be stoic in his book, The Obstacle is the Way, and has become somewhat of a guru in demand.
He's sharing his wisdom to the NFL, hip-hop artists, even Silicon Valley entrepreneurs.
And today he's here sharing his beliefs and the easy way we can all incorporate stoicism in our lives and what it can mean for our success.
I got to say, Ryan, I heard about you first because of your other life as a media strategist and the guy's willing to talk openly about how we've gotten to this crazy place of fake news, fake advertising and everything around.
But it's my mother-in-law who's been pounding at me.
Well, you actually heard about him first.
We just didn't know it was Ryan.
She's been sending us your daily stoic, like once a week.
So this one's really important.
That's so cool.
You didn't have a name, though.
No, you were just the Stoic.
You were the Stoic, as Stoics are.
For a while.
That's what I thought, man.
You're the same person.
I was stunned.
For a while, I was trying to triangulate.
It can't be.
I mean, how many Ryan holidays in Austin are there?
But you write in a similar vein.
And I would love if you could share some of the wisdom behind Stoicism with our listenership, and particularly why you think it's resonating so much.
Why is this ideology catching America?
Well, philosophy has captivated and helped people for thousands of years.
It's only somewhat recently that we've started to see philosophy as this sort of abstraction, you know, like what a turtleneck university professor would talk about that has no sort of real impact on the real world.
But in the ancient world, philosophy was the guide to the good life.
It's how to solve the problems of life, how to control your temper, how to find meaning, how to get through a difficult time.
It was ancient self-help.
Exactly.
And, you know, Before Christianity, it was sort of a guidebook for how to live.
It was like an operating system for your life.
And so I've tried to sort of redefine philosophy in that line and make it accessible to people, specifically Stoicism, which I think is sort of the most interesting and practical of the ancient philosophies.
Like the idea that Marcus Aurelius, the emperor of Rome, was studying and writing about philosophy every single evening or every single morning.
To me, it's just this wonderful insight.
And then what did this guy learn?
And what did he find about himself?
What did he pass along to us that we can benefit from today?
And what's so cool, so Marcus Aurelius is the emperor of Rome and he's studying philosophy.
But his favorite philosopher is this guy named Epictetus, who's a former slave.
So you have this philosophy that works in extreme adversity and extreme success, and it's tried and true over the centuries.
I wanted to make that as accessible to people as possible.
Define Stoicism if you can.
So my definition of Stoicism is that the Stoic believes they don't control the world around them, but they always control how they respond.
And so it's this sort of empowering, I think, moving approach to life.
So instead of trying to change what other people think or trying to fix the past, it's I'm going to focus on how I can respond to adversity, to success, to difficulty, to my own emotions.
I'm going to focus on being the best, on being excellent in any and every situation.
To me, that's what the Stoic is trying to do.
Sounds like me, Lisa.
Yeah.
All right, so you're 19 years old, by the way, when you read this quote from Marcus Aurelius, the emperor.
It's in meditations.
Again, this is a personal diary we're reading.
Our actions may be impeded, but there can be no impeding our intentions or our dispositions because we can accommodate and adapt.
The mind adapts and converts to its own purposes the obstacle to our living.
And then you could go on.
How have these words impacted you?
And it's a restated version of what you just said, but it's...
The fact that someone 2,000 years ago was having the same darn problems we're having today.
And this is a guy who had unlimited power, right?
This is a guy who you'd think would never face obstacles, but he in fact faces them all the time.
And what he's telling himself is like, look, this might not have gone the way that I wanted.
This situation isn't how I would like it to be.
But I'm not going to cry about it.
I'm not going to whine about it.
I'm not going to be upset by it.
I'm not going to waste time deciding whether it's fair or unfair.
I'm going to focus all my energy on making this into something.
And so what I think Marcus is saying is that stuff's going to go wrong, and that's actually an opportunity to be better in some other way, maybe a way that you didn't intend.
You know, someone is rude to you.
Obviously, you wouldn't have chosen that.
But now it's an opportunity to practice forgiveness.
Or you're stuck in traffic.
You could be upset by it.
Or you could say, hey, I'm going to call my mom and just talk to her for 20 minutes.
I'm going to use this time to some beneficial end.
Or I'm going to use this situation as an opportunity to improve myself or to improve the world in some way.
Traffic is the one exception.
Yeah.
You can't be a stoic in traffic.
It's impossible.
Some people can.
I bet Ryan can.
Oh, no.
I mean, look, I think if you think about Marcus Aurelius saying these things, you know, he's talking about why you shouldn't lose your temper.
The way I read it is he probably lost his temper that day.
And now he's sitting home, he's calmed down, and he's reflecting on where he fell short and how he can get better.
And so that's the other thing.
Philosophy isn't this, like, sort of set of principles that you learn one time.
It's actually this process, right?
The idea even of journaling, like, hey, I'm going to sit down and just work through my thoughts, and I'm going to put myself up for review, is how we get better.
And that, to me, is what makes this philosophy this sort of lifelong pursuit.
Well, you just said how we get better.
There's something implied in the title of your book, The Obstacle is the Way, and the implication is that it's actually the obstacle that gets you to where you need to be.
The obstacle is necessary and actually helps create who you are.
It is your path.
The obstacle becomes your path.
Well, I'll give you an example.
When I was writing my first book, I moved to New Orleans, and that's where I was going to be a writer.
This is Trust Me, I'm Lying.
This is Trust Me, I'm Lying.
And I probably—I just started the book, and I was riding my bike, and I got stuck in a streetcar track, and I fell, and I broke my left arm.
Oh, my goodness.
Are you left-handed?
I'm left-handed.
Oh, no.
So, you know, I just—I'd quit my job.
I'd moved across the country.
I was supposed to write this book, and now I can't type, or I can only type with one hand very slowly.
I'm in a sling— The worst.
And so, you know, I'm despairing.
I'm upset by this.
You know, and I run and swim almost every day.
And so I'm going out of my mind.
Like, I can't exercise.
My arm's in this thing.
So I have to start going for these long walks just to get so I don't go crazy.
So I'm going for these long walks.
And it's actually in the process of these long walks that I start to have the ideas for what become the book, right?
It's in the course of sort of having to do this thing that I didn't want to do, that had totally disrupted my plans, that I thought was unfair, that I thought was going to be this huge setback, that I end up going down this totally different road, sort of literally, that unlocks the insights that are in that book.
And I think if I'd had it my way...
It wouldn't have been as good.
You know, if we think about the worst things that have happened to us in life, with time we come to see that these things opened up certain opportunities or they changed us for the better, that if we could go back in time, maybe we wouldn't even change them.
And so what the Stoic wants you to realize is that you don't have to wait until 20 years after to have that insight.
You can realize it as it's happening.
So this phrase, Stoic optimism, which I've seen bantered around a bit.
Yeah.
Help me understand that.
Well, people think Stoicism is pessimism, that it's this sort of, you know...
Green and Barrett.
It is what it is.
Yeah, have no emotions, you know, but actually, no, it's saying...
Is that what the word Stoic means?
Well, there's sort of lowercase Stoic, which means have no emotions, and then uppercase Stoic, which is this sort of philosophical, you know, this school, this idea, this way of living, in the way that Epicureanism is not hedonism at all.
It's actually a very interesting philosophy.
Right.
So I think, to me, stoic optimism is saying, look, there's a whole lot of things that are outside of my control.
That's fine.
But there is this one thing that is in my control, which is my own thoughts, my own attitudes, my own actions.
And so I'm going to focus entirely on that, and that that's plenty, and that I can change the world by focusing on that thing, on what I control.
And obviously, this is easy to say.
It's hard to do in reality.
I mean, I struggle with it every day.
But to me, it's very optimistic to say, look, the world can knock me around.
It can kick my ass.
But I control that I'm going to get up each time.
And then I'm going to keep going.
And then I'm not going to be deterred.
There's lots more where that came from.
But first, a quick break.
All that's said and done, I actually think the biggest problem we face is not so much the obstacles in our way, but ourselves, our egos.
Yes.
Which is interesting, the ego is the enemy.
My thing is there's no obstacle that some good can't be sort of wrung out of, and then there's no situation that ego is a positive element.
We're never like, hey, let's get some more ego in this room.
That'll help things.
And so I want to be constantly reminded of those things.
There's a great line from one of the Stoics, Epictetus.
He says, it's impossible to learn that which you think you already know.
Ah, so perfect.
That's ego right there, right?
If you think you know everything, you can't learn anything more.
And so I sort of, I'm just constantly trying to keep those sort of mantras in my mind that the obstacle is always the way and ego is always the enemy.
Well, this is where it's interesting to bring ego and youth into the juxtaposition.
You need ego to separate from your parents, to have confidence as you go out in life.
In surgery, my day job, it's fascinating to see how ego plays a role in young surgeons versus older surgeons because young guys got to get their antlers sharpened up.
They got to feel like they can do it all.
You don't want a timid surgeon in there.
You got to take a knife and cut you open.
You need to have the arrogance to think he can do it, but it has to be controlled arrogance, the operative word being controlled there, not arrogance.
And so it's wonderful to watch ego play a role in making you who you are and then humbleness that comes from trying to do what you want to do, theoretically pushing ego down.
Why doesn't that normally work?
Why is it that ego suffocates the lessons we should learn from experience?
Well, I think oftentimes what happens is that when we're extraordinarily talented, or when there is someone who's extraordinarily talented, their ego sort of helps them on the way up.
And then once they get there, now all of a sudden it is their enemy.
It is preventing them from getting better.
People were willing to put up with your ego on your ascent and now you have so much more to lose.
So in the book, I make the distinction between ego and confidence.
I think confidence is extraordinarily important.
Confidence to me is based on evidence.
I know I can do this.
I've done this before.
I'm a fast learner.
I put in the work.
I'm not going to be a quitter.
Ego is, well, I just want this to be true.
Or, you know, my mother said I was special, so of course I'm special, right?
And so to me, that ego is really dangerous.
Like, when you start to believe that you're untouchable or that you have everything you touch turns to gold, that's when you make big mistakes and you hurt yourself and the people around you.
When you have a, you know, a belief in yourself based on evidence because you put in the work because you're sticking to this, that's really important.
Yeah.
Well, self-esteem is a fascinating place of research.
There was so much written 20, 30 years ago about the need to increase people's self-esteem because insecurity is a And anxiety is such an important part of all of our lives.
In fact, I'm always wondering, why isn't everybody anxious, depressed, even suicidal?
The fact that we're not all there is actually reflective of the human condition that we actually have coping.
Life is quite terrifying if you think about it.
Too much.
Or think about it the right way.
But the thing with self-esteem is inappropriately high self-esteem is one of the unifying factors around serial killers.
Sure.
And true sociopaths.
And so there is a real problem when we push people to have confidence when it's not evidence-based.
Yeah.
To me, it's about having confidence and humility.
So a real self-awareness about our strengths is really important.
If you don't believe you can do something, you're not going to be able to do it.
As you said, you don't want a timid surgeon who's not sure he can do the surgery.
At the same time, you would like the surgeon or a writer or a politician to also be aware...
Even a parent to be aware of their weaknesses and their flaws.
So they're not overreaching.
So they're asking for help.
So they've got contingency plans.
I think it's about what the Stoke would say.
It's about having a knowledge of our strengths, where we have control, and then the humility to know where we're weak or we're flawed or where it's out of our control.
The last thing you want is a surgeon who thinks he's God because, you know, he's probably going to end up Realizing his fallibility at some point, and you don't want to be on the operating table when that happens.
Is someone else's expense?
I think we have a tendency to think of ego as that confidence, as that success principle, but I think most of us are more ego-invested in our moments of failure.
And so it's like, what I see with the ego is it's when we need what we want.
So when you're in a fight with your spouse, it's not that you're so confident that you feel, it's your desperation to win.
So I think people listening, you You're not ego invested if you're just a master of the universe.
I think every single one of us has that attachment to what we feel like we want.
I totally agree.
So on the one hand, what's really dangerous is obviously when you associate your success and your worth as a person.
You experience the inevitable setbacks in life.
Right.
You know, you should be strong enough that someone can disagree with you.
You should be strong enough.
If you think your car says you're a special person.
Right.
Well, what happens if you can't afford that car anymore?
What happens if you get fired?
You know, so in a way, ego makes us really vulnerable.
The Stokes are talking about how capricious fate is, that life can sort of just turn everything upside down like that.
And if you're, if you've become addicted to what you have, to your status, to your fame, to your reputation, or to just, you know, always being right or always winning, then failure is going to hurt a thousand times worse than it needs to.
And so ideally, yeah, you want to be in this place where you're like, this is who I am.
This is what I'm good at.
Whether I'm on top of the world or I'm public enemy number one right now, that doesn't change me because it's out, you know, the.
Stoics are talking about externals, like the things that are outside us.
They don't change what's inside us, and that's really important.
So you make the argument, and the whole Stoic movement, I think, emphasizes this, that your attitude, your approach is what you control, what matters.
But sometimes bad stuff happens to people.
Falling on your elbow is a minor version of that, right?
Terrible car accidents, you lose loved ones, etc.
So how does a stoic deal with those?
Well, we go, look, things happen, right?
Like the idea that life is always going to go your way is naive.
And actually, one of the things the Stokes talk about, they do this, they do what they call negative visualization.
The Latin phrase is primatatio malorum.
So Seneca says, so he's one of the famous Stokes, he says, all the terms of the human condition should be before our eyes.
So when somebody goes bankrupt, you don't go, sucks to be them.
You go, that could happen to me.
When you tuck your kid in at night, you go, look, there's a chance that they might not wake up in the morning.
And so I'm going to appreciate them right now, right in this moment.
And I'm also going to sort of prepare myself for the fact that there's so much outside of my control.
And so this sort of thinking about the I think?
And so I think that's one of the ways that we deal with those things, is we don't tell ourselves that life is going to go exactly the way we want it to go.
We have a little humility and we go, things that happen that are outside of my control, and how would I respond if that happened?
Am I prepared for it?
Is that the story you tell yourself?
Is that the story we should be all telling ourselves?
I think so.
Look, I flew here yesterday, and I said to myself as I was driving there, look, I got a busy day tomorrow.
I'm getting on this plane.
It could be delayed.
You know, there could be terrible traffic on the way in.
The trip could get canceled.
I always tell myself, you know, when an article is going to be written about me, I go, look, this could be a hit piece, or it could get canceled.
It could also be amazing.
Am I prepared to take advantage of it if it goes the way that I would like it to?
Do you try to not be attached to the outcome?
I try really, and I try to work myself through, I try to think about it.
Again, the last thing you want to do is show up at the gate for your plane, and it says two hours, and you're the guy that just starts screaming at this poor woman working at the counter as if she's responsible.
It's like, life is responsible, this happens.
What's your plan to respond to that?
So yeah, I think that's a really important part of the lifestyle.
There's lots more to come, but first, a quick break.
You talk about meditating on your mortality.
Yeah.
Most of us get scared about the thought of death.
Sure.
In part because we get into the very physical part of it.
You know, what happens to my body when it actually decomposes?
What am I going to look like 12 hours later?
Where do I go?
How does a stoic meditate on their mortality?
So I keep this coin in my pocket, and it just says, it's a stoic thing.
It says, memento mori.
And then on the back, it has this quote from Marcus Aurelius.
He says, you could leave life right now.
Let that determine what you do and say and think.
And so to me, thinking about the fact that we're mortal, that, you know, we could live to be 100 or we could die tomorrow, or you could get hit by a bus when I step outside after this, sort of keeps me in the present moment.
It motivates me to take advantage of everything that's in front of me, and also not to take...
Insignificant things too seriously.
And so what's so lovely about meditations is Marcus Aurelius is talking constantly about death, but not in a pessimistic way, in a way that's sort of empowering and I think very much about living every second of your life.
And, you know, the Stokes talk a lot about, like, why would you fear death?
when death is a cessation of all of the things that you're afraid of, right?
Like, sure, there's going to be things that you'd miss if you die, but the Stokes point out that you won't be around to miss them.
So why waste a single second now when you could be appreciating those things, fearing this thing that is beyond you and life?
So how does a stoic deal with FOMO, fear of missing out?
Which is a tactic I use with my kids all the time.
How so?
It just happened.
We were on a family vacation.
I want to go somewhere.
Kids don't want to come.
Of course, you have four adult-aged children.
They have 16 different ideas what to do.
All of them better than yours, by the way.
And they love Jomo, which is the joy of missing out.
Just staying home and getting in bed.
I love that, yeah.
Their mother likes Jomo.
Their father is the big FOMO person.
So it's the usual thing.
I'll say something like, I'm going down to see this town at...
It's apparently the most spectacular place ever built by mankind.
You haven't really lived until you've seen it, but it's not a big deal if you miss it.
Sure.
I'll be back later tonight.
Phone tie appropriately, in case you were wondering.
I'm in marketing.
As a father, you have to have a little bit of marketing.
Sure, sure.
But we have these struggles, and sometimes you go, it doesn't work out.
It wasn't the most spectacular.
It was a complete dud, and people get mad and angry, and that's the opposite of what a stoic's supposed to do.
So how do you deal with FOMO? Yeah, I think that's a good question.
To me, I try to focus on experiencing whatever I'm experiencing.
The Buddhists talk about this, too.
It's not like, oh, in the future I might get to do this.
It's like, right now I'm eating a bowl of soup.
This is the greatest thing that ever happened, right?
Sort of appreciating the present moment rather than sort of thinking about the past constantly or worrying or lusting after the future.
So I think the Stoics would probably generally be opposed to the fear of missing out, but as a motivational tool, maybe they'd appreciate its brilliance as well.
Leave us with a tactic that you find, if not universally, generally successful in getting people who are skeptical to appreciate the power of Stoicism.
We should realize that all these Stoics were extraordinarily busy people.
You know, Marx is the emperor of Rome, and he's saying, even, you know, he has this great line, he says, if you seek tranquility, do less.
So he's like, look, part of the reason I don't feel good, I'm anxious, is that I'm saying yes to so many things.
And he's even talking to himself about what's essential and what's inessential.
And I think part of what Stoicism is really about is sort of narrowing down, eliminating the extraneous, so we're really focused on what's important.
and you know I just love that ancient philosophy is actually helping you solve these sort of practical problems it's not hey how do we know if we're living in a computer simulation or not do we have free will or not you know it's not these it's like hey how do I um how do I stop feeling so frenzied and frantic and he's just like hey look do less you know You're not going to feel more relaxed because you fly across the world on an expensive vacation.
You're going to feel better because you started saying no to things that don't matter.
