He's the Silicon Valley entrepreneur who started an international sensation when he put butter in his coffee to boost his brain power. Now, the creator of Bulletproof Coffee is back, and he's finding new ways to help people perform better, think faster, and live longer in his brand new book, Game Changers: What Leaders, Innovators, and Mavericks Do to Win at Life. In this interview, Dave Asprey reveals the biggest secrets to success and the next big thing in biohacking that everyone needs to know about. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
And this is something that chewed up half of my career.
A lot of us, especially when we're looking to prove ourselves in our 20s, I'm not good at that.
I better be good at that.
So you end up putting 80% of your effort into the 20% of things that you don't like, that you're not naturally good at.
And I did that, and when I realized, you know what?
There's probably someone who loves the stuff I'm not good at.
Maybe I could partner with them.
That's the return on investment, the time you save, and just the joy and the free energy that generates.
So that's the power of focusing on your strengths and your weaknesses.
Hey, everyone. everyone.
I'm Dr. Oz, and this is the Dr. Oz Podcast.
It's a big day, everybody.
Dave Asprey, a good friend that you all know, but I get to introduce him again and ask him some really hard gotcha questions.
He's a Silicon Valley entrepreneur.
You all know that.
He started an international sensation when he put butter in his coffee.
What an easy, simple idea.
In retrospect, to boost his brain power, but that was the important part.
And now...
The creator of the Bulletproof Coffee is back.
He's finding new ways to help people perform better, think faster, which is valuable in the modern era, live longer, which we all want, and his brand new book, Game Changers, What Leaders, Innovators, and Mavericks Do to Win at Life is another great example of how you change the world by harvesting what's out there, but that's elusive to so many of us.
And I think that's why I treasure our friendship, because you awaken me to insights that have profound value.
You sort of know it visually when you hear it, but it took you to put the pieces together, which is your creative genius.
Let's start with the word biohack.
Not many people have developed or coined a term that has made it into Webster's Dictionary.
You own that.
It's not even dubious.
It's a great distinction.
First, that must feel pretty good, but describe where the whole concept came from.
Dr. Ross, I spent 20 years working in an anti-aging non-profit group, working on helping old people become young and meeting people three times my age who were aging backwards, and using those techniques to first fix my health problems and then exceed what I thought I was capable of.
And I realized they never talked to the bodybuilders, and they never talked to the neuroscientists, and they never talked to all these different groups working on making humans better.
And I thought, maybe there's a word in a common uniting element.
And the uniting element was control.
Everyone wants control of their own biology.
When your body betrays you, and you decide, I want to do this thing, but I'm too tired, my knees are hurting.
I had arthritis when I was 14. I learned that one early.
And all these things, it's all about, I just want my body to obey me.
And the big spark that created biohacking came from Bruce Lipton's work with epigenetics, that your body listens to the world around you more than it listens to you.
It also listens to you.
But what if we could change the world around us just a little bit so our bodies behaved?
And I lost 100 pounds that way.
And that really changed my life.
You mentioned Lipton and his incredible work on epigenetics.
For the folks who don't know much about it, it's such a powerful concept.
It'd be great to have one of the folks who's engineered its evolution describe it.
Epigenetics is this relatively new science that says the environment turns your genes on or off.
You go back 20 years, we used to think...
Whatever your genes say are written in stone, and that is what will happen.
But it turns out genes are mostly a set of options.
They're switches.
And the world turns them on or off, your stress levels, the way you set up everything around you.
So now, just because you have a higher risk or a higher propensity for something good, doesn't mean you're going to get it.
But it means you can force that issue if you take control.
You started in Silicon Valley, which some may not realize.
And you had an entrepreneurial start, very successful.
Yeah.
So you're in your mid-twenties.
You knocked it out of the park.
What happened?
Well, I made just six million dollars when I was 26. Six million, by the way.
It's dollars.
U.S. dollars.
Yeah, there you go.
Big money.
It was huge money.
But I was young and fearful and angry and didn't even know that.
And I ended up losing that money.
And I made that at the company that held Google's first servers.
When it was two guys in a computer who started Google, we did their infrastructure for them.
And I lost it mostly out of fear.
And I went through this, I'll be happy when I have even more money.
And I was no happier with six million than I was without it.
I was elated for a brief period, but I was still miserable.
And that taught me a lot, but I sure wish I'd have kept it.
That's right.
Why were you miserable?
I was succeeding because I was afraid of failure.
So I was running away from a fear instead of moving towards something that actually mattered to me.
And I didn't know I was doing that.
That's what was confusing to me.
I thought I was doing all the things right.
The things that, when I do this, I'll be happy.
And I didn't realize that happiness was a state that itself creates high performance.
So instead of focusing on the mindset and the happiness and serving others and things that mattered, I was very focused on myself and making sure that I looked like I was successful and not failing at any cost.
And it turns out that fear of failure is what usually makes you fail.
What's the epiphany that got you to realize that?
These are remarkable insights.
Because I think many folks watching right now are absolutely performing for the reason you state.
They just don't want to fail.
They don't want to be embarrassed or ashamed.
Shame is a huge part of it.
And for me the insight was...
I'd made all this money.
I'd lost all this money.
I was more stressed than I was before.
And I went to an Ivy League school.
I went to Wharton.
And I was barely passing my classes because my brain wasn't working very well because of all the health challenges I had.
And I was in a relationship that had ended.
And I just sat down and I said, you know what?
I've accelerator pressed all the way to the floor.
And I have for my entire life.
And I'm not going faster anymore.
I'm slowing down.
I don't know what else to do.
And I feel like even more of a failure.
And it just became overwhelming that I finally said, all right, I've done everything that's supposed to work.
I worked out an hour and a half a day, six days a week.
I'm still fat.
I've done all this stuff that's supposed to make me successful and happy.
And I'm still just not.
So I started doing the deep personal development work to gain awareness, not just of the physical stuff, but of the emotional, even the spiritual stuff.
And when you get those aligned, doing things like Bulletproof and really making a difference, it's actually easier.
That's the whole thing.
The pain goes away.
And that's what the big insight for me was.
As you started to succeed...
And begin to biohack our bodies.
You picked up some trolls, which not surprisingly, like they follow many successful people that came after you.
How do you cope with them?
Well, I finally realized that there's something called a science troll, and it's a term I hashtagged that.
Science troll?
Yeah, a science troll is someone who'll go out and find a piece of research.
They'll spend five minutes doing that, and they'll say, here's a piece of research that disagrees with what you said they're for, and then they put a personal insult in.
And there's a really easy way to respond to those people.
And on social media, you click ban and delete.
And that means they can never see what I say again.
They can never benefit from it.
I never have to see their words again.
It took me half a second to do that.
It took them five or ten minutes and all that hate.
But here's the deal.
If you want to say, Dave, I think you're wrong, we're going to have a really good discussion about, and maybe I am wrong.
I'm really willing.
I don't know why I'm wrong so I can provide even better advice.
But the idea of a personal insult, if someone's coming at you like that, if it's questionable, you give them one thing.
Hey, It seems like your question is this, and the people who don't even know what's going on, they're the ones who have the most pain, the most fear, and they're doing that to prove to other people how important they are and to make themselves feel better and sort of medicate their own pain.
So I just feel compassion for science trolls, but it doesn't mean I have to let them into my living room.
It's fabulous.
You know, actually, I just did a podcast with Worden Peterson.
Oh, yeah.
Who shared that, you know, he didn't mind, in fact, welcomed harsh criticism because it meant someone had thought about it.
And if they're passionate about something and they feel opposite than you do, you probably can learn from each other.
That's what always has allowed humans to prosper.
But he says when you throw a slur at someone, they can't really argue the point anymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you call someone a Nazi, I mean, not only can you not talk to them because no one's going to talk to a Nazi, but you can't talk to their friends because who's friends with a Nazi?
Right.
And the whole system that has allowed Western civilization to prosper starts to fall apart.
That's true.
And it happens in science, unfortunately, because science is a religion of its own.
Not literally, but the emotional elements that sometimes compel people to join one club or another, as you battle passionately about what you believe is true, will lead you astray.
Because like all humans, we're flawed.
As physicians, I'll acknowledge this.
So when you created...
Bulletproof.
Coffee.
I'm quite certain that elicited some almost religious zealotry.
People thought this is unbelievably great and folks thought the opposite.
How did you start to get people who didn't think it was possible to understand there might be wisdom there?
One of the coolest things ever is that social media and all this infrastructure we built allows people to talk about what works.
And in the old days, you could put a nice sticker on your product full of junk, genetically modified whatevers, and you could tell people it's healthy.
And they had no way to know it wasn't working for anyone other than maybe their next door neighbor.
But now you can go online and you see there's tens of thousands of people doing it, reporting, oh, I just lost 40 pounds or something.
And you start having cognitive dissonance.
Well, this group says, my most famous science troll comment ever, is that can't happen, therefore it didn't.
They're willing to deny reality, whereas a real scientist says, wait, if it can happen one time, maybe my rules are mostly right, but something must be possible.
And it's that mindset that said, alright, if it's possible, or if it's not possible, why did...
A thousand other people talk about this.
Maybe I'll try it one time.
And if what you're doing is impactful and people can feel it and see the difference, for me, it wasn't even about losing weight.
It was about turning my brain on all the way.
And when people wake up, all of a sudden say I have more energy, then they're going to share.
That's how it really worked.
We're only just scratching the surface here.
We've got a whole lot more to discuss after the break.
A win at life is one of the mantras that the new book is aspiring for us all to pursue.
Help us understand that.
We all want three big things, and these are things that I've experienced in my life.
And when I analyze the data from 450 people, Nobel Prize winners, Navy SEALs, Olympic athletes, just, you've been on Bulletproof Radio, Dr. Oz.
The people have done something really noteworthy.
There are three things that came out that they're all doing in one way or another.
They want to be smarter about what they do and how they do it.
They want to be faster.
They don't like to waste time because they have something meaningful to do, right?
And, I mean, I've seen you backstage, and you don't waste time because you have a lot of people to serve.
You really do, so you don't just kind of do things unconsciously, right?
And the final thing, though, was they want to be smarter, they want to be faster, but they also want to be happier.
And it's about happiness.
Yeah.
Define happiness for us, if you don't mind.
I ask because for a lot of people it's about seeking a goal with some fulfillment that goes along with it.
I love that we're talking about this.
I've spent four months of my life with electrodes glued to my head doing advanced neurofeedback.
Only Dave Asprey wants to do that.
Are the holes still there?
Thermal's filled in.
They lift the skull off, they insert the electrodes.
It hurts for, I don't know, a couple months, but it gets better after that.
Fortunately, they're glue-on.
But what I found there is happiness is a state, and it's a state that's either present or not present, and it is not dependent on achieving a goal.
When you buy the Mercedes, or you get the big house, or whatever it is, you will feel a sense of happiness for about 10 minutes, maybe a day or two.
And then, what else is going to make me happy?
So there's this constant seeking.
The Buddhists call it a hungry ghost syndrome.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah.
And the happiness condition is when you feel happiness, you can feel happiness whether you achieve your goal or you don't.
And that changes everything.
So these people have found a way to work happiness into their lives even as they were achieving whatever it is they set out to achieve.
When you have happiness as a core state, all of the pain and struggle associated with doing something meaningful drops.
So all of a sudden, it feels good instead of feels like you're pushing and struggling and striving.
And that was a big insight for me writing Game Changers.
Well, Game Changers was unique for several reasons as I looked at it.
The first is you got to get 450 smart people, people who are worth talking to, sit down with you.
Was that a challenge?
It took five years.
And fortunately, on the Bulletproof Radio Show, every conversation, a couple hundred thousand people are going to hear it.
So people started saying, well, I want to do this.
But I started the show just because I wanted a chance to learn from these masters.
My other books, the ones you've been kind enough to talk about on your show, those are all, okay, I'm going to talk to the world-leading mitochondrial experts so I can learn from them so I can have control of my own stuff.
But when you write a book, it forces you to crystallize your knowledge.
And I realized if I want to be even more of a game changer, I'm going to have to study what these people taught me and put it into a format that I could really absorb.
Did you notice commonalities amongst the people that surprised you?
For example, did they have a common issue they would regret having done or not done?
Most of the people on the show, there's a few outliers who were kind of living with regret, but most of them, they had learned to look at the things that would have been regrets as learning experiences.
They had mostly learned to say, you know what, I did fail in my life, but in retrospect, every failure was a learning experience.
And it's funny because this is something I actually do with my kids every night.
I'd say, hey, tell me three things you're grateful for before I go to bed, and then tell me one thing you failed at.
And if they don't tell me something they failed at, I'd say, maybe tomorrow could be a better day, because you didn't do anything big enough to fail at today.
Oh, it's good!
It's a great thing!
So the idea is if they failed at something, it means good.
You worked really hard.
So that they can lose that fear of failure and just say, oh yeah, I tried to do that and I completely failed.
That means I learned.
Because that's what failure really is.
But we have all this shame in things.
And the people who have done these big things, they all, in their own path, They had regrets.
They all had failures.
And they all learned from the failures.
They all re-architected that failure in their mind.
In fact, one of the rules in the book, there's 46 laws that are based on the data from all these people.
And one of them is learn the power of saying no.
And there's a guy there who was so afraid of being rejected that he went out and every day for a month he set a goal of being rejected.
He would ask for ridiculous things like a burger refill at the restaurant.
You'll get into it.
And people would say yes all the time.
And so learning from people like that who think differently, it helped inform me.
Most powerful word in the English language, no.
It took me a long time to learn how to use it.
But people respect you for using it because it means that you value what they're asking for enough that you can actually think about it and say, no, I don't have the ability to do it right.
Was there a commonality that surprised you?
Something that you saw that was perhaps attributable to some of their success?
I think it was that third thing about happiness.
I would say 90% of the people I interviewed had a level of joy and service in what they did.
And I've talked to a couple of people over 90 years old who are Nobel Prize winners, people who have created fields of psychology, and they are walking around with just a spark in their eyes still, and they know that they've done something that's good.
They're still curious.
And very few people at this level had failed to achieve happiness.
And none of them achieved happiness because of their work.
They achieved happiness because of their relationship with their spouse, because of their community, because they took care of their bodies.
And when we analyzed all the answers, the number one thing people said mattered of all the things they could say.
From your entire life, three things that matter most.
The number one was food.
If I eat junk food, I don't feel good and I can't do my job.
So it matters.
I thought you meant you were focused on food.
Are you kidding me?
Go out and build robotics.
That's what they told me.
They just said, I've learned in my life.
Another common answer was sleep.
If I don't sleep, my creative genius goes away.
I don't show up for my family.
And exercise was in there, and then it was meditation, community, and some unusual outliers.
And one of the things that's in the book is a few people talked about it openly, but sometimes off-camera you have really meaningful conversations.
And if you do not have love in your life...
You will not achieve that level of happiness.
And that level of happiness isn't just about what's happening in your personal life.
It's about how you show up at work and for your friends and your mission and everything.
So it's in the book.
I would think that if you're not with somebody, if you don't feel loved, then you also start to second guess what you're doing.
Is it really worthy?
Yeah.
What did people say about weaknesses and the dangers of focusing on them?
This was really powerful, and this is something that chewed up half my career.
A lot of us, especially when we're looking to prove ourselves in our 20s, I'm not good at that.
I better be good at that.
So you end up putting 80% of your effort into the 20% of things that you don't like, that you're not naturally good at.
And I did that, and when I realized, you know what?
There's probably someone who loves the stuff I'm not good at.
Maybe I could partner with them, and I'll do the things I'm really good at.
And all of a sudden, the return on investment, the time you save, and just the joy and the free energy that generates.
So that's actually the second law in the book, is to learn the power of focusing on your strengths instead of your weaknesses.
Playing sports, I learned that.
Oh, yeah.
Because you make a mistake, and the best thing you can do if you're talking trash to someone is remind them of their mistakes.
Which, interestingly, just reminds you not to focus on yours.
Yes.
Otherwise, you're doing the same thing to yourself in your mind, which is a much more dangerous place for most people to be than anywhere else on the planet.
It's inside your own head.
Because we say we're thinking, but we're not thinking.
We're beating ourselves up.
Exactly.
When I ask my kids what they're doing, they say, oh, I'm just thinking.
Well, I know what's really going on.
You're saying you're not good enough, you're not worthy, you didn't accomplish what you could have done.
Let me say that.
I'm the dad.
Let me say that.
You focus on why you're worthy.
I love that.
We have lots more questions to get to.
But first, let's take a quick break.
Let's talk about the weasel words.
And these are words that, I tell you, once he says them, you'll know them and you'll hopefully never forget them.
But I hear them from people and I know they're going to self-sabotage.
Just by the fact that they have those words and those words are part of their vernacular.
When you say the word can't, you are always lying.
You have no proof that you can't do something.
It might mean you don't have the resources, you don't know how, it's never been done, and maybe it really is impossible, but no one knows that.
But when you say can't, you stop considering new options.
So I've taught my kids that.
If I say can't in the house, they're going to jump all over me, and we simply edit it out of our relationship.
Dr. Oz, if you said, Dave, could you have lunch with me tomorrow?
And I wasn't going to do it, I would not say I can't make it.
I would say I am not going to make it, because it's true that I'm not going to make it.
When I tell you I can't make it, I'm actually lying to you, and you know it at some little level.
You know what?
If it was the most important thing in your life, you could.
It's about increasing your integrity in the language that you use on yourself, and then the voice in your head stops telling you you can't do stuff because it's a word you don't use anymore.
The other word is need.
When you say you need something, it means you'll die if you don't have it.
There are very few things you'll die without.
So, I need to go shopping?
No, you actually didn't need to go grocery shopping.
You could maybe have Instacart bring it to you.
There are other answers.
You could ask a friend.
You could fast.
So when you start creating absolutes that aren't true, you stop being aware of all the amazing opportunities in the world around you.
And another one is bad.
Bad?
Is it all bad?
Or was there one good thing that came out of it?
Good and bad is a sliding scale.
And you lose gratitude.
And if you cannot be grateful that, well, at least I'm still here, even though that, quote, bad thing happened, it wasn't what you wanted, it wasn't pleasant, but was it all bad?
Probably not.
So, I don't use that word either on a regular basis unless it's conscious.
How about the word try?
I'll try to do it.
Don't I try, you crazy?
Imagine if I was going to...
You said, Dave, could you pick me up at the airport?
And I said, I'll try to make it.
Never mind.
Try just means that you're not going to do it and you're giving yourself an out.
So, no, I am going to do it or I'm going to work on doing it.
And I might fail.
I'm okay with that.
But try just means you're presupposing failure.
You will not hear anyone in my house say, I'm going to try to do that.
You might say, I tried to do it yesterday.
This means I experimented and I failed.
But today, no, I'm going to...
I'm gonna nail it.
So we don't use that word.
Let me offer one of my own, which is when people say it's not fair.
Oh, jeez.
And it's unfortunately a phrase that has worked its way into one of my siblings, and I hammer her on it, and I know she's upset when I do, but I always say, you know what?
There's a guy I interviewed years ago when I was doing the Oprah show who was a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon who had developed a terminal cancer of his pancreas.
And he was dying.
And people would say, well, that's so unfair.
You're dying.
It's not unfair.
It's unlucky.
But it's not unfair.
And if we spread the burden of good and bad, you'll get a bad hand once in a while in some aspect of your life.
It's what you do with it that matters.
And if you think death is unfair, I got bad news for you.
That means life is unfair because to date, everyone we know of has died.
And you probably will.
I'm planning to live to at least 180. But for everyone listening, even that, I am going to die.
Maybe I won't make it.
I'm happy to die trying, right?
I said trying.
But you didn't say can't.
Exactly.
What's all this controversy about consuming tobacco?
Well, I'll be the first to tell you in Game Changers, tobacco is bad for you.
Chewing tobacco, smoking tobacco, snoring tobacco, it's just bad.
However, on Bulletproof Radio, I interviewed a professor from Carnegie Mellon who for 30 years has been studying extracted nicotine from tobacco as an oral drug.
So when you put it in your mouth, you don't smoke it, you don't vape it.
And he's reversing Alzheimer's disease with it.
With nicotine.
Yeah.
With nicotine.
Oh my goodness.
And it also mimics exercise in the body.
And it turns out nicotine, not tobacco, is one of the most studied smart drugs from Mother Nature.
And if you think about it, almost every great novel on earth has been written on coffee and cigarettes.
And I like to think mine, which isn't a novel, was written on pharmaceutically extracted, small amounts of nicotine, taken for health benefit, and definitely bulletproof coffee.
How often do you take it?
The nicotine, I'll do one milligram a day, and sometimes more.
Do you feel the difference between minutes, half an hour?
I used a milligram right before our interview, so I could totally know that.
So sharp he is.
Let's end with the issue of fear, which is what holds you back when changing the most.
Why is it a mind killer?
Fear is a mind killer because we typically feel fear, then we make up a thought about fear later, and we think the fear happens as a result of the thought.
But because I have the benefit of measuring my brain waves, I can tell you that's not how it works.
What actually happens is the feeling happens.
First.
And we just try to justify it.
And when that feeling happens, instead of taking your thoughts and routing them through the prefrontal cortex in your brain, where you can actually think about them as a human, they go straight to the amygdala, which is the fear-processing center of the brain, and you become reactive.
So if someone says something to you, or someone cuts you off in traffic, and you'll be like, I used to be when I was young, I'd have very developed muscles on my middle finger.
Right?
That wasn't because I thought about it.
I didn't decide to flip the guy off.
I did it because it went straight to my amygdala and I was reactive.
So fear makes you reactive, but having compassion.
And now that same situation, someone cuts me off.
The story used to be, they cut me off because they disrespect me and think they're better than me.
Now the story I choose, because I have no data, I don't know why they cut me off.
Well, they're on their way to the hospital to see their son be born, right?
Hey man, just get right in front of me.
I don't care.
I'm still going to get there.
But for me to edit my story, now I don't have that feeling anymore anyway.
But if you allow the fear to come in and then you make up a story about it, the story is really expensive.
The voice in your head chews you up.
But it's that first thing where fear cuts you over.
So what you do is you find out what are you really afraid of.
And then you work on that issue and suddenly you stop feeling the fear in the first place.
And that's what I've done.
I've edited every fear I can find in my life and either experienced it until I'm not afraid of it or done deep healing work on forgiveness so that the voice in my head shot up finally.
What do you fear the most?
I don't live in a state of fear, but the one thing I think about on a regular basis, and you might have similar thinking, you reach a lot more people than I do, but with 100 million downloads on Bulletproof Radio, that's 100 million hours of human lifetime I've consumed.
If I have not created more value than I consumed in terms of those times, that is a couple hundred human lives.
So if I'm not providing meaningful information like that, I actually look at what I'd be doing there as the equivalent of being a mass murderer.
It's that dark.
Because if I'm wasting 100 million hours of human lifetime, how could I do that?
So I feel this moral obligation to just bring it and to really say things that matter and are truthful.
And I know because you vetted everything I've said when I'm coming to your show.
You have an incredible vetting process because it matters that much when you're at that scale.
So I don't know that that's a fear thing, but it's a deep responsibility thing.
Well, you just said the word, responsibility.
To me, and you should have, I think, appropriate fear for things.
You don't want to get too close to the edge of a big building.
Yeah, not dying, of course.
That keeps the kids away from the electrical side, because fear has its role, unless it's a continuous process that's mostly in your mind and often imagined.
But you used the word responsibility, which is what I think, to me, ends up being the most important factor.
You have to decide, are you a force for good, or are you a force for good?
For disrupting good.
No one wants to be evil.
Evil happens because we don't intervene to try to do good.
You have to be diligent because the dividing line between good and bad is right in the middle of each of us.
We all have that.
What's next for you?
You've got Bulletproof Coffee, Game Changers, lots of other things you've accomplished in your life.
What does Dave Asprey do next?
I am realizing that people are over-trained and over-stressed and under-recovered.
So Bulletproof just spun out something called Upgrade Labs in Santa Monica, and we are now opening a chain of facilities where people can come in and recover faster than Mother Nature intended.
And that's had big results in my life.
I'm looking younger now than I did five years ago.
Good, I gotta say.
I'm feeling great and I'm down to 9.6% body fat without increasing exercise or changing my diet just by changing my environment.
I want to bring this to the world so we can have less stress, more recovery.
And I think we're wired, Dr. Oz, we're wired to be kind to each other.
It's in our cells to do that, but we won't do that if we're stressed all the time, if we're not recovered, if we don't sleep, if we're fearful, if we don't have love in our lives.
And writing Game Changers taught me that even more than before.
That's one thing.
And I'm working on my next book about how I'm actually, what I'm really doing to live to at least 180, or at least die on the way.
Dave Ashby, congratulations.
Booked game called Game Changers, What Leaders, Innovators, and Mavericks Do to Win at Life, like this guy over here.
Lots more to learn from Dave.
Pay attention to his books, his podcasts, and you can see him on the show as well.
