The New Body Language Techniques to Get What You Want
“It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.” She was once a federal law enforcement officer in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Now, she's an international communications expert, and owner and president of The Body Language Institute. Janine Driver has built a career based on understanding people's communication through their body language, and in this interview, Dr. Oz and Janine uncover the greatest body language secrets anyone can follow to get what they want by exuding confidence and power! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
I remember one time, actually, you know when you close the bathroom door where you hang your robe or your wet towel?
There was a machine gun, a loaded machine gun, hanging there.
And this guy had two little kids running around with holes in his pants, and he's got this loaded machine gun, contraband.
And here I am in this bathroom.
Here's the problem.
I was an investigator, not a special agent.
So that meant I did not have a gun.
I have no cell phone.
I had to go use a payphone.
So my only weapon was confidence.
in the confidence in that my body language was saying, don't mess with me.
Hey, everyone. everyone.
I'm Dr. Oz, and this is the Dr. Oz Podcast.
Dr. Oz Podcast.
We've got a very dangerous guest in the studio today.
Jeanne Driver is joining us.
She's the author of You Say More Than You Think.
Now, I wonder what she's talking about with that title.
She's the CEO of the Body Language Institute, which should be a clue to all of our listeners.
Spent many years as a federal law enforcement officer in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.
Which of those did you like the most, by the way?
Yeah, the alcohol for many, many years.
I don't drink today, but for many years.
My dad said I'd turn my hobbies into a career.
Yeah.
Very good.
She taught people at the Bureau a little bit about body language in order to keep themselves safe and also to interview suspects.
So besides the fact that she's a stand-up comedian who we thought would be very engaging for the audience, we thought the topic of body language would be one of great interest.
Now, you can't see the way we're sitting right now, but I've been tipped off, of course, because I looked at the book.
About how I should be sitting in front of Janine, because she's of course continually evaluating me.
But walk us through a tiny bit, besides the fact that you wanted to pursue your hobby at the Bureau, of how body language played a role there.
Well, with ATF, I was an investigator.
So what that meant is I went out and I did firearms trafficking.
So I went to gun dealers' homes.
And this was back before GPSs and cell phones, even before pagers back in 1992.
And here I was.
I worked out of Hartford, Connecticut, in Boston.
I'm from Boston originally.
I live in D.C. now.
But going into Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, unannounced, knocking on a gun dealer's door, showing my badge and saying, hi, I want to see who you're selling to.
Here's the problem.
I was an investigator, not a special agent.
So that meant I did not have a gun.
So my only weapon was confidence.
And the confidence in that my body language was saying, don't mess with me.
And that's what I teach people today.
What's your body language saying to others?
And my confidence in reading what you're saying without saying a word.
So ultimately, I ended up, under the Bush administration, I was appointed to Project Safe Neighborhoods, where the federal government goes out and teaches our training to the state and local police, so they get that same edge.
The bottom line is, I had a friend of mine that said, hey, you know that body language stuff?
I'm going on a date with this guy.
I'm sick of being single.
Do you mind coming out with me?
But don't sit at the table with us.
Sit at another table and just spy.
So we had this thing where I paged her, and this was about 10 years ago now, and we did a Code Red, and that meant meet me in the bathroom, and I told her how to change her body language.
And that's where I took from law enforcement skills, you know, teaching the bad guys.
I mean, skinheads, Nazis going into their houses, in their homes, in their basement.
If I disappeared, my boss would have no idea where I was.
We would do two weeks at a time.
We'd be gone on a piece of paper in a file cabinet just saying where I was.
I remember one time actually out in the field.
You know when you close the door, Dr. Oz and Lisa, where you bathroom door, you put your robe, you hang your robe or your wet towel?
Yes.
There was a machine gun, a loaded machine gun hanging there.
And this guy had two little kids running around with holes in his pants before holes in your pants were trendy.
And he's got this loaded machine gun, contraband.
And here I am in his bathroom.
I have no cell phone.
I had to go use a pay phone.
Are you out of your mind?
I was 22 years old.
22 years old.
So teach our listeners a little bit about body language and how they can use it in their day-to-day life, even if they're not trying to take on some skinhead.
And that's what happened with my friend who said, will you go on this date with me?
And I said, wait a minute.
If I can get the cops to get the bad guys to confess, maybe I can bring it over to the dating and business world to get the people in your life to say yes, to ultimately get what you want.
And so there's so many ways.
In the book, of course, I talk about what I call seven-second fixes.
And I'd love to share a seven-second fix.
The book, by the way, is called You Say More Than You Think.
So seven fixes.
Go ahead.
Thank you.
So seven second fix, for instance, is if you are standing in what's called the fig leaf position.
Your hands are folded covering what I call the naughty bits.
The reason I call the crotch area the naughty bits is once I was in the green room at the Today Show and Ted from the show, Queer Eye for the straight guy.
Queer Eye for the straight guy.
Thank God you're here.
For the love of God.
So, he said to me, he goes, what are you going to talk about to Al Roker?
I go, well, keeping your three power zones open.
He goes, well, what are your three power zones?
I go, your neck dimple, which is this little notch in your throat right here.
It's this little neck dimple.
I know this is probably a fancy name.
Super sterile notch.
Thank God you're here, Dr. Oz.
And the notch, the neck dimple, and your belly button, which I hope we'll get into today.
The belly button's super powerful.
And then I said the groin.
And Ted goes, you've got to be kidding me.
So you're going to go on the Today Show with Al Roker, and you're going to say the word groin to Al Roker.
That's like turning loose.
It's like feeding a tiger.
And he goes, don't say that.
Say the naughty bits.
It's from the Holy Grail.
And call it the naughty bits.
And ever since, of course, actually, I didn't even say naughty bits that day, although I thought it was funny.
I call this the chiropractor factor.
If you ever go to a class, you learn some really cool stuff.
They're going to learn stuff today listening to us on the radio.
You're going to say, this is awesome.
This is going to change my life.
You're going to write it down and never do a thing about it.
Yes.
I call it the chiropractor factor.
You've got to make all these adjustments.
You don't just go in once, say, I'll try Janine's belly button roll.
Yeah, it was fun.
It worked.
And then you forget about it.
You've got to constantly make these adjustments to have lasting effects.
So I don't say the naughty bits until I end up on Rachel Ray one day.
I was on Rachel Ray.
Yeah, yeah.
And I was a dating scene, and the woman goes, well, maybe I don't want to keep my naughty bits open on a date.
Maybe I'm a good girl, and I got to keep the bits open.
So say if you're standing with your hands folded in front of your naughty bits, like right now, right?
So you can't see it at home.
So Lisa's sitting, right, with your hands kind of folded in your lap.
What I want you to do, and I'll explain at home, is instead uncross them.
Now she's sitting in this nice, comfortable, low-seated chair with two arms on either side of the chair.
First, her hands are rested nice and folded on her lap, right?
That's how people sit on The Apprentice before they're fired by Donald Trump.
Folded hands is a begging pose.
Please, my son says to me, please, can I have sugared corn pop cereal, please?
And he gets it.
You should never...
He usually does.
He's a single kid.
Instead, pop it open.
Guys are great.
Look at...
Your husband is taking up space here.
Dr. Oz has no problem sitting here.
Taking up space.
His elbows are popped up.
My fingers are pointed to my body bits.
Show me the bits.
Just taking your hands simply and resting them on the shoulder of a chair is going to give you the message, send the message of confidence and power.
You know, on American Idol, Simon Cowell says, you know what?
It was great, but no one's going to remember you next week.
Are people remembering you right now when they walk out of a room?
Or do you just blend in?
Now watch what I'm going to do, Lisa.
I'm going to give you a little extra.
Take your elbow and put it over the back of the chair.
Oh, bam!
I wish you could see what just happened here in the studio.
Why don't you say what just happened?
How do you feel?
Now I'm all towards you.
I'm like all open towards you.
My little neck dimple is facing you.
My belly button is not quite facing you.
It's okay.
That would be out of control.
We just met each other.
You're a married woman.
Slow it down.
This is a very comfortable position with my arms slung over the back of the chair.
Yeah, just popping that elbow over the back of the chair.
What happens is if we walked into a room and Dr. Oz is trying to decide, okay, who do I want to ask on a first date if you were single back in the day, and one person's sitting with their hands folded in the lap and the other one has that shoulder, that elbow popped up over the chair, keeping the three power zones open, it is smoking hot.
It says, this is a woman I want to get to know.
Now, can you do it to a two-four of a degree?
If I spread my legs out like it's not spreading my legs, why?
Yes, that's a crotch display.
Is that a turn-off?
That's kind of a turn-off.
It is a turn-off.
It's actually considered arrogance.
And this is the problem with what I call, my book is called, with the new body language.
The old body language, you would take a couple of these moves and you become crazy with power.
You do too much, you know?
You've got your three power zones open, you're flashing me the bitch, you put one foot on a bar stool, and you're giving me this huge crotch display.
It's too intense.
It's too intense.
There's a...
You've got to slow it down.
You've got to know what message you're sending first, and then you've got to adapt for the audience.
All right, so in the book with Janine Driver, you say more than you think.
There are seven myths about body language.
I loved these.
And so let me go through them real quickly.
I think the audience will love this.
Myth number one, reading body language can help you read minds.
And that's the big problem of the old body language.
It's mind reading.
You steeple your hands like Donald Trump, fingertips to fingertips and prayer hands.
That sends the message of power, authority and confidence.
Well, do you know why?
A lot of criminals, a lot of murderers, when they're being interviewed by law enforcement will tend to steeple.
They do this prayer hands, fingertip to fingertip.
Why?
They want you to convince you that they have nothing to hide.
They're so confident.
So they use it.
My rule is convince rather than convey.
Are you trying to convince me you're powerful or you're holding something back?
So there's no way every body language move means one thing.
Crossed arms.
It means you're bored and disinterested?
No.
There was a study done that when you cross your arms, you're 30% more likely to stay on a difficult task.
When you see like the old cop shows and they take out a cold case, what do they do?
They take out their case file, spread the crap all over the table, all the evidence, cross their arms.
They're trying to solve a different cult problem.
So that's really one of the biggest myths is that you're a mind reader.
You're not.
The part of the book that I'm the most proud of is the end where I teach you, notice the deviation in your normal behavior and then ask a powerful question.
So when you were asking me that question, Dr. Oz, you had your left hand on your hip and what I call a half of a Superman pose.
So you're asking the question.
It's your turn.
You're the guy.
It's your show.
Bam.
Up comes the hand.
in the Superman pose.
Now, all of a sudden, if you folded your hands when I give you an answer, did you not like my answer?
Uh-oh.
I like that.
Did he not like my answer?
Don't be a mind reader.
I would say, hey, Dr. Oz, maybe I'm wrong here, but it seems to me that I didn't answer the question the way you wanted me to.
And you could say, no, no, no, you did.
I just have to run to the restroom real quick.
That's right.
Don't be a mind reader.
It is not about mind reading.
It's about being a powerful communicator.
The myths matter, though, and I'm glad you're going to go over them because the bottom line is people are judging us by these myths.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, so body language is twofold.
What are you saying to others?
And those myths matter.
You can't cross your arms in a job interview because you will be perceived as bored or disinterested or holding something back.
However, when it comes to reading others, which I'm really good at, I say my son, he's four, his name's Angus, I say he's totally screwed.
He's not going to get away with anything ever for me.
But back to the arm crossing, Janine.
When I cross my arms, I cross the third of those power spots you mentioned.
Yes.
So if I was on a date and I cross my arms, I think I'd be perceived as being aloof or closed from the person.
Even if I face my belly button towards them, which I know you'll get to later on.
Well, the three power zones, again, the neck dimple, the belly button, and what I call the naughty bits, the below the belt there.
Every time you block one of those zones, what you've done is you've decreased your amount of rapport by 33 and a third percent.
So oftentimes women will let you just scratch your nose with your middle finger and they didn't hear it at home.
I did that on purpose.
I love it.
You weren't testing me.
Yes, I was.
You wanted to see if I would see it.
Everyone's on the joke here.
Janine writes in the book that even though you don't use the middle finger on purpose, you'll do actions subtly that will expose you.
Like you pick up a cup of tea with the middle finger out.
So I scratched my nose with my middle finger to see if she'd notice.
You are very sharp, very sharp. - You're a little stinker.
- Is he coming along? - He is, I love him.
You're gonna keep an eye on him, don't you?
But if you cover, that was funny, if you cover your neck dimple, a lot of women will do this, We'll pull at our throats during high anxiety, high nervousness right here.
They'll cover their throat right here.
You've just decreased your amount of rapport by 33 and a third percent.
The book is all about being confident, being confident in any situation.
You're all about health.
I'm a big girl, by the way.
I'm a size 20, and I'm working on it.
I know you have a big plan, like a four-day plan.
My friend just told me, she's like, you're going to get on doctors.
I've got a truth to plan for you.
But I'm a size 20. My book, the body language is for every body.
I think people think, you know, I'm a size 20. When I get down to the 6, then I'll be confident.
It's all about confidence.
Anytime you block one of those zones, you are decreasing your confidence and breaking rapport.
Cross your arm, you've decreased it by 33 and a third.
Now I'm touching my neck dimple and my arm crossed across my belly button.
We'll often see this high stress.
What happened?
66 and 0.6%.
I'm decreasing my ability to look confident.
It's a kiss of death.
My legs are crossed, too, so none of these bits are closed off.
Yeah, all of you.
I got nothing happening here.
When I open it up, then you can feel the power.
Right now, I actually have a closed circle to both of you.
Jean Driver, author of You Say More Than You Think.
We're going over the seven myths in her book.
Myth number two, you can use individual signals to cover up your true feelings.
Yeah, it's funny that a lot of people think they get some of these hack body language books that are already out there, unfortunately, and it's not people's fault.
You know, it's not your fault, but you've been living your life wrong when it comes to reading body language, and that's where I break the myths.
Your body language moves cannot hide your true feelings.
I've been trained by a guy named Dr. Paul Ekman.
Oh, sure.
I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Ekman.
World class.
We actually put some of his stuff in one of our U-books.
Oh, you did?
Yeah, so he's great.
I've been trained personally by him.
He talks about the seven universal emotions.
He actually, in the early 60s, went over to New Guinea to prove Charles Darwin wrong.
He thought, see, Charles Darwin thought we were born with a certain amount of ability to communicate, our nonverbal communication.
We're just born with it.
It's...
You know, not nature versus nurture.
It's just literally, it's the whole nature.
You're born with it.
And Darwin thought that, and a lot of therapists and psychologists thought, no, that's not true.
You actually learn the ability to communicate.
You learn about a smile.
You learn about fear.
And that's how you know how to do these emotions or surprise.
He went over to New Guinea to these tribesmen in the early 60s and showed them pictures.
And I'd show Lisa a picture of fear.
You're a tribesman.
You've never, ever seen American television.
You're not familiar with Western civilization.
I asked the interpreter...
He said, please ask this young woman, Lisa, when would she make this facial expression?
And she'd say, oh, when a wild boar would come into my hut to kill my baby.
What did Ekman do?
He's like, oh, shoot, I'm proving Darwin right.
And that's what he did.
He proved Charles Darwin right, and he found out initially there were six universal emotions.
He later added a seventh, which I call the kiss of death, which is contempt.
It is the kiss of death.
And in my book, I show a picture of Linda Clemens.
Is it Linda Clemens?
Roger Clemens' wife.
Yeah.
Yes.
Leaks contempt when she was up on the Hill and Roger Clemens was testifying on the Hill about steroids.
And when it's talked about on the Hill about the wife taking steroids, where she admits it, all of a sudden when it's talked about by Congress, she leaks contempt.
And contempt is moral superiority.
It's literally the kiss of death.
So here you're asking me about hidden ways to use body language to hide your emotions, how you're really feeling.
Not really.
You can't do that.
It's actually been scientifically proven that when it leaks out, we pick up on it.
There was a guy named Spencer Kelly at Colgate University, and he wanted to find out, does body language, is there a science behind it?
How does it affect our brain?
What's going on in our brain?
And lo and behold, he found out that it does.
Our brain is literally picking up on a nonverbal cue that doesn't match your message.
I fire you.
Dr. Oz, I'm sorry.
I fire you, and you leak happiness.
That's called duping delight.
And why are you happy?
Are you going to come back and shoot us all?
Did you take all of Oprah's fans and you're going to take them and create your own network?
I want to find out why are you happy when I'm firing you from something that I know you love and enjoy doing.
I would simply ask again a question.
Maybe I'm wrong here, Dr. Oz.
It seems like you're pretty happy that I'm letting you go.
And you could say, you know what?
I'm really passionate about breast cancer.
It's my new thing, and I want to go, and I want to go back to med school, and I want to learn more or go get my PhD at MIT about the science behind breast cancer.
And I want to ask that question instead of being a mind reader.
So that's where, again, it goes back to we can't be a mind reader and you can't hide your hidden emotions.
They leak out.
But so then when you assume these positions of confidence, for example, and you're still feeling insecure, is there relationships for...
Between our body and our emotions so that you can shift the way you feel based on the way you're sitting.
Or if you can change the way you feel, will it automatically change the way your body is positioning?
Do you know what I'm saying?
I do know what you're saying.
So you're basically saying, do you have to be confident first and then show body language that's confident?
If I go from sitting with my arms crossed and sitting in sort of a hunched over closed position to opening myself up, is that instantly giving me more confidence?
You can do it either way.
So I'm not leaking...
Lack of confidence because my emotions are actually changing when I change my body position.
Lisa, it's been scientifically proven that even if you're faking happiness, that the endorphins start kicking in.
If you're angry, your blood pressure, your heart, you know, I'm sure you can attest to it, Dr. Ars.
That by even pretending to be angry or remembering something that I did, that I was so angry.
I had a woman once pinch my son at a class.
My son bumped into her kid and my son was two and a half years old.
And the woman went over and pinched my son's arm.
And I was not there.
The babysitter was there.
And another mother came and stuck up for my son and went, you are picking a battle with someone who's two years old.
And my son, Angus, had just bumped into her kid, pinched him to the point that when he came home and I saw him four hours later, there was still a mark.
So here's this lunatic.
I feel bad for her kid.
That makes me angry.
To just even mentally think about it, even to pretend to be angry at the moment, my body will physiologically change.
So you can fake confidence.
Now, the hidden emotions are tough.
That's an emotion of feeling.
So if you're sad, you can't hide sadness.
But if you're a little nervous, can you do things to pop up your confidence?
Yes.
As you do it, I have an exercise.
If you rub your hands together right now, both of you guys, right here.
So we have our hands, we're rubbing together as if we're cold.
This sends a signal to our brain, something exciting is about to happen.
So you're really nervous, you do this.
When do you do this?
When something really happens, you got your big show, the big TV show.
Yes, you're like, ah!
This is awesome, baby.
We're going TV. This will trick your brain and says, okay, something positive is going to happen.
So change your body.
It's like I'm rolling dice, you know, at the craft table or something.
Change your body, change your life.
Really, if you move your body, you can move your brain.
And so there are simple ways to pop up confidence.
However, there's no way to hide your hidden emotion.
If the bottom line is you find out you have, God forbid, breast cancer.
My mom has breast cancer right now.
She just had her second part of chemo.
Lost her hair five days ago.
Very difficult situation.
Can she sit there and pretend to be happy?
No.
Sadness will leak out because it's a true intense feeling, her sadness.
The inner eyebrows come together and then they're pulled up.
One of the hardest muscles to fake.
That's why when we saw in the early 90s where Susan Smith drowned her two kids...
And she put them in the car seat because her new boyfriend didn't want to date someone with kids.
Drowned her kids.
And she's on television saying, some black man came and stole my car and took my babies.
And she's crying for four and a half minutes.
There's no inner eyebrow activity.
The inner eyebrows aren't pulled together.
There's no forehead activity.
If you're crying for four minutes, there's a reason why you have a doctor called an ear, nose, and throat doctor.
They're all connected.
So her nose would run.
The tears would run.
Her throat would get dry.
We should have to clear her throat.
It was all fake.
So you can't fake sadness.
She was trying to fake sadness, and it wasn't there.
Does the common person pick up on it?
I believe that subconsciously, unconsciously, they do.
They just say there's something inauthentic about her.
I might not be able to put your finger on it like Janine can, me.
However, you pick up on it.
Speaking of Janine Driver, author of You Say More Than You Think.
I think when we come back, do liars make eye contact or not?
Two tantalizing tips.
They're part of the seven myths that you talk about and you say more than you can think.
And the one is, liars don't make eye contact.
The liars look at you.
I thought that was always the rumor.
They look off to one side or the other.
They confabulated stories.
It's funny.
So earlier in the show, I talked about what I call the chiropractor factor, which is when you learn something new, you need to integrate it into your life to make it a long-term process, just like health and wellness.
If you're going to create a walking plan, it needs to become just like brushing your teeth.
The same thing with body language, that if you learn a couple of quick tips, if you don't integrate them in your life, you're just going to forget about them.
When you go to a chiropractor, you have to make a change.
You know, you have to go back time after time to make a permanent part of your life.
The reason I remind you of the chiropractor factor is that in my class, the first thing I say when I teach at the Body Language Institute or in corporate America is this.
You have to get a baseline of someone.
What is your normal behavior?
My son Angus and I, we play this game, head, shoulders, knees and toes, knees and toes.
I'm chunking all of it.
Angus is 22, by the way, but go ahead. - How old is Angus?
He's four.
Four.
You're funny.
Head, shoulders, knees, and toes.
I'm looking at you from the top to the bottom.
We oftentimes get stuck on the face.
I tell them this in class again, again, and again.
I get to this question.
Do liars increase eye contact or decrease eye contact?
I go, will you give me permission to give you this test?
Of course, they say yes.
I go, okay.
Raise your hand if you think liars decrease eye contact.
80%, 60 to 80 will raise their hand.
80%.
I would.
Decrease eye contact.
Yeah.
Raise your hand if you think liars.
Increase eye contact.
I'll get the remaining 40%.
I will then ask, raise your hand if you didn't raise your hand.
And I'll be lucky if I get about two people out of 200 in an audience.
I'm lucky if I get about 10%.
And then I'll ask those people, why didn't you raise your hand?
Because they're the only people that actually got their answer right.
Why?
You have to get a baseline.
So Lisa goes and confronts you because she sees my phone number, my personal cell phone, handwritten in your pants pocket in two days.
You're doing the laundry, Lisa.
You see Janine with a little heart over my eye for Janine and my phone number.
I get out my golf club.
That was good.
That was a good callback.
That was funny.
So you see my name and Lisa confronts you and she goes, what's up with Janine's personal cell phone in your pocket?
What's this all about?
And of course you would do the typical guy thing.
What?
What?
I love you.
What?
What?
I love you, honey.
I don't know.
That was his response to me.
I have no idea.
People give me their cards all the time.
I have no idea.
Oh, so this is a sensitive subject.
I didn't even know this.
I have cards all over the place.
Most of them from guys, by the way.
I don't have an idea where I got them either.
When they have little hearts on them, though.
Of course.
Well, he's adorable, right?
So here, and so are you.
Now, say if all of a sudden she confronts you, you typically give about 60% eye contact.
In the real world, in the business world, we typically give 60% eye contact.
Anyone who gives 80% eye contact, which I'll get in sales, half the class will stand up when I ask this.
40, 60, or 80, how much eye contact?
Sales, half the class will stand up for 80. I go, please stand up if you do 80. Look around.
These are the intimidators.
80% eye contact is what you see in sales because they know the importance of eye contact.
They overdo it.
They use car salesmen.
It's intimidating.
Cops do it because we want to intimidate you.
So here, we go back to this question here about eye contact.
Does it increase or decrease?
If Dr. Oz, your husband, usually gives you 60% eye contact, and all of a sudden he goes up, that's a deviation in his normal behavior.
That's what I call a probing point or a hotspot.
I say, uh-oh, he's trying to—remember I went back and I said earlier, convince rather than convey that bad guys will often steeple murderers, and steepling sends the message of power, authority, and confidence.
That's where fingertips are touching fingertips and of prayer hands.
And do they know that because they've read a book like yours, or is that instinctive?
Oh, no.
They know it.
Oh, they do.
Yeah, they're trying to manipulate it.
They are.
Oh, yeah, that's why.
And another thing, I break the patterns on manipulators so you don't get manipulated in the book.
But here, so I'm trying to convince you of something.
He gives you an increase of right to contact instead of a decrease.
Or 60% and you drop to 40%.
It's that deviation that I'm looking for.
What did I do?
I just made a chiropractic adjustment to my class.
Now how do you know what baseline...
Now she's interested.
No, no, no.
You got her on the right topic here.
I should know what his is because it's on a regular basis.
But if it's a criminal and you don't know what his baseline is, how do you establish that to see where the deviation is?
Well, I've already baselined both of you, and I've only been here for a couple minutes.
I worked for ATF, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and a lot of the guys in ATF and the women have to do arson investigations.
It's alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives, but we don't add the E at the end of the ATF. And explosives, all right?
God forbid this building explodes.
Guess what?
Everyone in this building became a witness, right?
So there's this big arson here, and we're all witnesses.
In comes four ATF agents.
They have to interview 400 people.
Well, they only have three minutes to do it.
Chiropractors, they don't spend an hour and a half with you.
What do they spend?
Three or four minutes?
Five minutes?
They're still getting a baseline and establishing rapport.
So getting a baseline is really simple.
You get it when you're talking about something, A, that they don't have stress to lie about.
If I asked either of you, have you ever cheated on one another?
Did you ever cheat on the doctor?
The good doctor?
No.
No.
That was an honest answer, just to let you know, Doc.
That was honest.
So right here...
Well, you didn't ask me.
I asked no for me, too.
I don't want to ask you.
I once asked...
Please evaluate it and convince her.
The answer is no.
I get asked it all the time.
I haven't deviated my answer or my body language.
The answer is still no.
I was in Seattle once on a radio show and the guy goes, ask me anything.
See if I can lie.
Ask me anything.
Did you ever cheat on your wife?
He goes, did I ever cheat on my wife?
I go, that's a stalling technique.
Oh, no.
He goes, okay, I did cheat, but she knows about it.
It was seven years ago.
And when I left, the crew that works on the radio show, they go, just to let you know, that was awesome, but you will never be invited back.
Oh, no.
Dr. Oz, have you ever cheated on Lisa?
No, I have not.
And that's a truthful answer.
I'm looking for no there, not never.
If he had said never, I would have said to Lisa, here's my card, Lisa, call me.
What's never?
What's never?
When a beautiful woman walks by a guy, what does the guy do?
A guy that's really attracted to this woman, he puts his hands on his hips, which is called the Superman pose.
This is creating a broadside display.
You look bigger than you are.
Very, very strategic move.
I tell chiefs of police that are shorter and are being dominated by lieutenants who are tall, always put your hands on your hips.
So here we got this hands on the hips move.
What was your question?
Where's my ADD? It's kicking in.
I have cheating.
Oh, we're talking about cheating and never versus no.
Oh, never.
Thank you.
Thank you.
ADD. All right.
So, and I know there's people listening at home that can relate.
So they're like, oh, finally, she has ADD. Now I understand her.
That's why she's all over the place.
All right.
So hands on the hips right here is being this power pose of the Superman.
When we hear the word no, I'm always looking for no when I'm confronting people.
So my specialty is lying, how to bust someone and lie.
That'll be book two.
I haven't started that.
I love it.
No, you've got three strikes to give me a no.
Have you ever cheated on Lisa?
What kind of person do you think I am?
Strike one.
Mm-hmm.
Have you ever cheated on Lisa?
I'd be stupid to do something like that.
Strike two.
Have you ever cheated on Lisa?
Are you asking me if I've ever cheated on Lisa?
Strike three.
Ask my friends.
They'll tell you I never cheated.
Character testimony.
So they'll say these types of testimonies.
But you didn't lie, and you didn't overtly lie in any of those.
But you're not answering the question.
So that's obviously lying, but people can just say no and be lying.
It very rarely happens.
Really?
No, our brain doesn't want us to lie.
Roger Clemens, my personal opinion is that Roger Clemens took steroids.
He gets up there, he's on television.
What does he do?
He says never.
Do you ever take steroids?
Never.
Liars, it's very hard.
Our brain doesn't want us to lie, so we'll often say, I was looking for never.
What never does is puts the hands on the hips of the word no.
Just like the Superman, the broadside display, you want to look bigger than you are?
The word never, it's as if we drew little hands on the word no to appear bigger and more dramatic than it is.
Truthful people say no.
I've done this for 16 years.
I've trained 60,000 cops, the CIA, the FBI, the Scotland Yard Police in England.
I've trained the best of the best.
Truthful people say no.
Liars say never.
Remember, it all goes back to convince rather than convey when you are reading others.
Are they trying to convince me they like me?
Do you ever hear a date?
You're going to date and the guy says, yeah, I'll definitely call you again.
And he shakes his head from left to right saying no.
No.
You're never going to hear from him.
Bill Clinton, and I love Bill Clinton.
Bill Clinton said, I never had sex with that woman.
He didn't say no.
And he shook his head yes.
As he's saying no.
I never had sexual relations with that woman.
And he's shaking his head yes.
The nonverbal sneak out.
So convince rather than convey.
I'm always looking for a no when it comes to, have you done something wrong?
Watch this.
Lisa, did you give a three-year-old heroin yesterday?
No.
No.
And Dr. Oz, have you ever hit someone with a car and killed them?
No, I've not done that yet.
Why aren't you saying never?
Because you're telling the truth.
People who tell the truth say no.
It's super simple.
And that's what the book does, is it really takes it back to the simple.
We try to overanalyze things, and it's really about simple little things that we're looking for.
Now the liars all know to say no.
But I like actually what Janine is saying, which it's finally clicking into me.
It takes me a couple times to hear things, to really process them.
At least I guess it's the first time.
You mentioned a point several times that it's this chiropractic office metaphor, but you're really using these tips to probe.
Because it's not the first question that gives it away oftentimes.
You're just finding...
And you're using that example, I think, when you're talking about arson.
You can walk into a room with 400 people in it.
You have to pick the 10 you're going to talk to.
Right.
Right?
Right.
And so you're looking for who you're going to ask the second question to, which is a wonderful tip for parents.
Because if I need to know what the kids are...
At least you do this with the kids all the time.
You're asking probing questions.
I would ask, honey, what time are you getting home tonight?
11.30.
Come home by 11.00.
No.
I'm done.
She said 11.30, she said 11.30.
Lisa will ask five questions about what she's going to do between 11 and 11.30 that makes it so important that she come home at 11.30 versus 11 o'clock.
And what do you say when she doesn't come home the time she wants you?
She said she's coming home at 11 but comes home at 11.30.
What do you say?
I've been on the cell phone with her for the last 20 minutes.
What do you say the next day when you talk about it so you make sure it doesn't happen again?
Sometimes I say you're not going out next time.
You missed your opportunity to live up to our expectations.
And sometimes it'll be while you're coming home early or next time.
Sometimes I just ignore it altogether.
If it's a legitimate reason, you know, they didn't come to pick us up till late kind of thing.
Yeah, and that could be a made-up story.
So do you want to know the formula?
Yeah, absolutely.
Please, everyone take your papers and pen out here.
Get the pen and the paper.
This is the same formula the CIA is using right now to keep this country of ours, this great country of ours, safe.
I had a school teacher that used this formula with slam books.
They still have slam books in junior high where they pass around this notebook and say bad stuff.
How can I get Dr. Oz to break up with the missus so I can state the good doctor?
And they'll pass it around and all the women write in it and put pictures.
It's very mean.
And I had a schoolteacher use this formula.
An amazing result.
Here it is.
And it's outlined, obviously, within the book.
But here it is.
Simple.
Grab your pen and paper.
Step number one, you say to your daughter, is there any reason why?
Is there any reason why you told me you would be home at 11 and you came home at 1130?
Say, instead of yelling and just saying like, hey, I told you, you said you were going to be home at 11.
you weren't home at 11.
We can't do that in law enforcement.
See, I need to build rapport so I can build that trust.
So the bottom line is it's not about punishing her for last night.
It's about getting her in compliance for the future.
Am I correct on that?
Absolutely.
So let's get her in compliance.
Is there any reason why that you told me you'd be home at 11 and you weren't?
That's step one.
She's going to say, well, Mom, I had to drop off four other people and I wasn't expecting to drop off people and it was just unexpected.
It wasn't my fault.
Two people said they had rides and they didn't.
Step two.
Really.
With the disdainful look.
I wish you had this on TV instead of radio.
Is it really in the book also?
That is in the book.
It's hard to describe.
She told her head to the side.
Because it's not just really.
It's really.
Like cut the crap.
Yeah.
You know, in that kind of a tone.
So really.
That's step number two.
What happens is, if your daughter's lying, she's going to say, really, mom?
Now, liars need to be believed.
Really, really, really, mom?
That's what happened.
I mean, you know, Jennifer and Michael, I mean, ask all the rest of the gang.
They'll tell you that they were supposed to have rides and they didn't and I had to drive them home.
Really.
Step three.
I call it WAIT. W period, A period, I period, T period.
What does that stand for?
Why am I talking?
You are so heated up, Lisa.
You want to get those words in.
Slow it down.
Why am I talking?
In other words, say nothing.
In the old days, they called it the pregnant pause.
The pregnant pause, we heard it.
It disappears.
If I said do a pregnant pause, you wouldn't do it.
I'm really great at creating names to make you learn an old trick a new way.
Wait, why am I talking?
So, is there any reason why you said you'd be home and you weren't?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Really?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Now you say nothing.
Lawyers are great at it and judges.
Now what you do, though, you have to tilt your head to the side like a dog.
Like...
Yeah.
And purposely air on space, dead air on space, to show you be quiet.
Here's the last step, and this is a clencher.
My husband skips right to this one, so I probably should whisper it to you and have Dr. Oz leave the room so he doesn't use it on you when you go shopping and he doesn't want you to buy stuff.
The last one is this.
What's your daughter's name?
Zoe.
We have three daughters.
Well, throw one under the bus.
Let's throw Zoe under the bus.
Let's throw Zoe under the bus.
Zoe, we're throwing her under the bus.
So Zoe, is there something you'd like to get off your chest?
Bam!
That's it.
This is where the truth comes out.
Because why?
You've just had her lie three times in a row.
Is there any reason why?
Lie.
Really.
Lie.
Wait.
Why am I talking?
You say nothing.
Lie.
She's lied to you three times in a row.
You look at her and you say, her name, Zoe.
Is there something you want to get off your chest?
When you say that, you shake your head yes.
Now for me, I'll go shopping.
I have a son.
My sisters have seven girls combined, and they're in Boston, and I'm in D.C. I'll go to Target, and I'll buy tons of stuff for them, and I throw it in the car.
My husband will say, did you buy anything for the nieces?
I'll say, no, never!
And he'll say, Janine, is there something you want to get off your chest?
I'm like, you know, I'm foiled again.
How can you tell at what step along the way if they're telling the truth?
Like, what if they really did have this, you know, there was traffic.
Convince rather than convey.
Listen, turn on, women especially, you know, I think there's a plus side for being a man and a woman.
I think men are really good at using body language to exude confidence.
But no offense, most guys are not that great at reading body language.
Terrible attitude.
The opposite side of the house is women.
We are really great at reading body language.
Where we struggle is using body language for ourselves to portray confidence.
So it all kind of is this balance of power.
You know.
Is she trying to convince you of something or convey information?
Try the formula.
The longer the story gets, the less likely I am to believe it.
Like we have one friend who...
It's like a 40-page chapter in a novel every time you ask her a question because there's this layer upon layer of lie.
When we come back, we're going to learn much more about lying.
But first, a quick break.
Before the break, you pointed out that women are terrible at conveying body language, but very good at reading it, which is what always happens when you come back from a party.
These people point out things that are nonverbal that I completely missed, independent of what color and design they were wearing in clothing.
They were obviously sending messages out that I was obtuse to.
And Ginny Driver's teaching is all about that today.
Her book, You Say More Than You Think.
She worked for many years in federal law enforcement at the Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco Firearms and even explosives where she had to do all kinds of interesting things like figure out pretty quickly who was telling the truth or not.
Let me leave lying for a second because it's making me uncomfortable.
And I never like to be.
So, smiling.
Now, I was taught as a young person To always be cheerful around people if I had a choice because it made them want to be around me more.
And you point out in the book, very interestingly, that if you look smiley all the time, you look stupid.
You look not even stupid.
Not respectful.
You're not being earnest and honest.
On the other hand, once you talk me through that, I'd like to ask the real question I had, which is, Whether or not you should always be connecting with people as you look at them.
And I think that's probably what the people who are giving me advice about smiling are really trying to get at.
Pay attention to people.
Acknowledge they exist.
So walk us through that.
The smile, we're always taught to smile, and it's been scientifically proven that when I smile, you smile.
That makes you happy.
That's why when I yawn, you yawn.
We have these mirror neurons in our brain, so when we see someone feeling something, we experience that feeling.
We're taught to walk into a room and smile.
We've heard it a million times.
Here's the problem.
You become that irritating cheerleader from Greece.
Remember first Greece number one?
There was like this one irritating girl.
Every time she came on the scene, everyone else was irritated, plus us watching.
We were irritated.
It's like, it's literally in the business world considered a beta leader.
You're not an alpha leader.
You're a beta leader.
It says, hi, like me, like me.
It's the babysitter that arrives to watch the kids and brings a bag load of candy if they're trying too hard.
So when you walk in with a smile on your face, you're actually hurting your first impression more than helping it.
Now, I'm not saying go in angry, you know, like...
Like the most angriest person or even your blank face.
You need a smirk.
So you walk in like, I know a secret no one else knows.
You don't ever show that open teeth smile, that really big smile, until you meet the person.
So I shake your hand, and I say, hey, Dr. Oz, thanks so much for having me here.
And you say back, great, Janine, we're glad to have you.
When you speak, I smile.
Because what happens is, it's as if you made me smile.
Hi, I'm Janine.
Nice to meet you.
I'm Steve.
Hi, Steve.
You can see, even in my tone of voice, you can hear it.
Hi, Steve, where the smile comes in.
I remember I was on the show The Big Idea with Donnie Deutsch on CNBC. It's a great show.
I love Donnie.
I have the biggest crush on Donnie Deutsch.
And I never wear wedding rings.
So my husband's like, you're flirting with Donnie Deutsch and you're not wearing a wedding ring.
Never.
No, I was going to ask that question of you later on.
Yeah, why aren't you wearing a wedding ring?
I left it once.
It's three carats.
It's basically, my husband reminds me that it was his second Harley that he would be buying, because he's had the first Harley since he was like 18. And I left it at a hotel once.
And it's very expensive.
And three carats.
It's fancy, shiny.
I call it the Batman flashlight.
Did you get it back?
Yeah, I went back.
I had to take a taxi.
I got all the way to the airport, turned around, went back to the airport here in New York.
I'm in New York a lot.
And it was still there, by the grace of God.
I mean, very, very expensive.
And it just put fear in me.
So when I travel, I'm very fidgety.
I can't sleep with a wedding ring on.
What are you telling people by fidgeting?
You know what?
That's a great question.
What am I telling people by fidgeting?
Most people will think that I'm insecure, nervous.
That's my baseline.
That's why norming someone is crucial.
When I was a kid, I was raised Irish Catholic.
I was the one that was bouncing around the pew with my knee moving and my leg bouncing.
My mother would grab my leg, stop moving your leg.
That's my norm.
That's my baseline.
And that's why the new body language is so crucial to going back, what is someone's baseline?
It doesn't mean I'm nervous.
So I don't wear the wedding ring.
But if we go back to the smile, is that you want to smile when someone says hello.
And when I was on Donnie Deutsch, I said to him, I go, Donnie, it's nice to meet you.
He's not paying attention.
He's got 10 people around him.
And he's Mr. Powerhouse USA. And as he walks away, I smile and I go, huh, I thought it was impossible.
As I smile.
And Donnie Deutsch turns around and he goes, you thought what was impossible?
See, I smile after I meet him.
And I say something clever, like I thought it was impossible.
He goes, what's impossible?
I go, you're even cuter in person than you are on television.
Now, he's an egomaniac.
He knows he's adorable, right?
He knows that.
I spoke his language.
I used the smile to get what I want, which is his attention.
A Machiavellian Janine Driver is.
Yes.
I love this.
Poor Donnie Deutsch had no idea what was hitting him.
Oh, he knows.
I love Donnie.
He goes, were you doing this to flirt with me?
Was it genuine or did you try to manipulate me?
Like, oh, it was genuine.
I would never try to manipulate you.
Never.
Who, me?
Talk about belly buttons a little bit, speaking of manipulation.
So I love this.
So again, the three parts, the three zones of power of the body, the super sternal notch, the little dimple beneath the throat, the knotty bits, which are the crotch area, and then the umbilicus, the belly button.
The umbilicus?
Is that what it's called?
That's what it's called.
So the belly button.
I'm all about the belly button.
And now it was back in the 1930s with Edward T. Hall where he talked about facing the core of your body towards people or away from people is revealing a lot of information.
And a lot of body language experts will talk about facing the core of your body.
No one remembers that.
That's boring.
And I sat down and I'm like, really?
It's not the core of your body.
It's the belly button.
Let's think about it.
That's the belly button.
I call it the belly button rule.
When people take my classes, even in corporate America, one of my clients is Coca-Cola.
I got an email afterwards from a big wig in Coca-Cola.
I just want to let you know I'm now addicted to the belly button rule.
When you change the name of something, you can actually make it stick more.
So I made it sticky.
Well, the belly button rule is this.
We face our belly button towards people we like, admire, and trust.
And we like, admire, and trust.
When we go to shake hands in a corporate setting and I'm meeting multiple people, what do we tend to do?
We stick our hand out to the right of our body.
We say, hi, nice to meet you, Dr. Oz.
Hi, nice to meet you, Lisa.
Hi to meet you, Steve, Michelle.
And my belly button is facing straight ahead because I'm walking and my hand is outstretched to the side.
My belly button is saying, hi, I don't care who you are and I don't care who you are and I won't even look at you.
Now, this is the difference you see in politicians.
Bill Clinton, one of the things he's really great—I throw him under the bus with Monica Lewinsky, so I balance it out with his great handshake.
How do you like that so the show's all balanced?
But what Bill Clinton does is he's really great.
He'll always face his belly button towards someone that he's meeting, shake their hand, and then move on.
It's the belly button rule.
Think about it.
Our first link to another human being was our belly button.
Whether your birth mother's a part of your life after that very first beautiful day, your birthday, or not, that belly button is our link to a communication.
In boardrooms across America, we can see who likes who based on the belly button direction.
Lisa right now has her belly button angled towards the doctor, right?
Towards her husband.
Her top right leg, which is closest to me, is angled towards him.
He's running the show.
It's very interesting, Lisa, because as you talk to me and you're asking me a question and you begin to get engaged, you uncross that leg, cross the other leg, and angle your belly button towards me.
As you're communicating, you turn and adapt your body.
You look at a picture of a boardroom.
Half the people are facing the woman at the left of the boardroom table.
The other half of their belly buttons are facing the right.
There's a battle of power here.
Criminals.
When you confront a criminal, all of a sudden what will happen is I had a guy lie to me.
He was cheating on me.
This guy, Bill.
I won't say his last name, but this guy, Bill, is cheating on me.
He's so stupid.
Why would you do that?
Just give his first initial.
So stupid, right?
It's like the dumbest thing on earth.
So, all right, so he starts lying to me, and as I turn up the heat on asking him these powerful questions, remember our formula, he turns his belly button and faces a door or an exit.
Subconsciously, they're saying, I want out of here.
But don't be a mind reader.
Let's go back to that.
Ask that powerful question.
Maybe the person you're on a date with simply has to go to the restroom.
Right.
But you're looking for a deviation in the norm and asking that powerful question.
It's the belly button rule.
I also call it naval intelligence.
I love that.
I love that.
I'll write that down.
So aren't you worried about sharing all these secrets and having the criminals that you try to catch read them and then use them against you?
No, because again, it goes back to that hidden emotion.
And when you're in high stress, like a criminal, you have something to lose.
When it comes to detecting deception, it's very difficult to use body language to mask the truth because you have something to lose.
If you lie to your spouse because you're cheating, you could lose your spouse, the house, the kids.
You could lose a lot of money.
If you are lying to me, I was a federal law enforcement officer with ATF.
If you lied to me, you're going to jail.
You're lying to a federal officer.
So this is a big deal.
Lying in body language, it's high stress.
It becomes very difficult to mask the nonverbals.
However, in a normal day-to-day situation, body language is great.
There are so many people.
There's like 30% of this country has social anxiety disorder.
They're nervous about going into a party.
These simple little strategies will get them the edge to get out of the car and get into the party.
Yes.
Oh my goodness.
It's through the roof.
It's through the roof.
And people self-diagnose themselves.
They say, well, I'm shyer of social anxiety disorder.
And they create this limited belief and they hold on to this limited belief because it becomes part of their identity.
And all they really need is to know some of the techniques that we're talking about today, more of which I mentioned in the book, is to give them that edge.
If you can feel confident and know just a couple simple strategies, it's going to change your world.
I just love it.
It's fascinating.
And I have to say, when I was with ATF, it was great.
I made a lot of money there.
I was pretty high up.
The grades go up to grade 15. I was a grade 14. I climbed the ranks.
I was really young.
I was the youngest instructor ever to teach at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.
Did they ever give you a gun?
So I never had a gun in the end.
No, I never had a gun.
Just that confident.
Why'd you stop?
I just felt that there's a bigger message to be had.
And I'm on television all the time.
I'm on the Today Show pretty much once a month.
I've been on Rachel Ray.
And I have to tell you, when I'm on a television show, I don't get the corporate gigs.
It's not like I leave your show and all of a sudden corporate America calls me to hire me and I get my big speaking fee.
I want as many people in the world to know what I know.
If you were going to Germany, okay, Dr. Oz, and I knew how to speak German, I would teach you a couple things to communicate more effectively.
How to ask for the bathroom, the check, how to ask for lodging or safety or the police.
I want you to have that tool to keep you safe.
You're my friend.
I want everyone to know what I know, not just law enforcement.
It can all change our lives.
I mean, so many people losing weight.
I have to tell you, they struggle.
They think when I get to the size 6, then I'll go to the party.
When I get to the size 8, I'll go on Match.com or some dating service, eHarmony, to meet the love of my life.
Well, why are you waiting?
Now is the time.
I'm a size 20. I'm on television.
I've been on Larry King Live.
I've been on all these shows.
Why do I do it?
It's confidence.
It's my body language.
It's having the confidence to connect with someone else.
Not waiting back.
Well, Janine Driver, I'm very happy you left ATF. It's a great service to the rest of the country, and I loved hearing all this, and I'm sure there's much more that I couldn't get to, including Naughty Bits, which I thought I'd start at, but I never got to.
If you don't mind bringing it back to talk about that.
Handshakes.
If you're finding out what side of your body is preferred, the power side, all this good stuff, which next time Janine Driver is joining us on the show, or you know what you might want to do?
You might want to actually buy the book.
You Say More Than You Think.
It's a worthwhile investment.
Or visit our website, yousaymorethanyoucanthink.com.
