NXR Podcast - THE SPECIAL - Catholic vs Protestant (w/Nick Fuentes) - EP6
Aired: 2026-02-04
Duration: 01:11:36


=== America's Rebellious National Spirit (02:04) ===

[00:00:00]  What we've seen over the past 300 years is that the national spirit of America is rebelling against everything.
[00:00:07]  It's not a coincidence that we're the country of rock and roll and mass democracy.
[00:00:12]  And Americanism is now synonymous with no rules, no boundaries, defying everything.
[00:00:19]  And now our export is probably actually harmful.
[00:00:23]  What we're exporting to the country, and this is a critique which our adversaries have seized upon in China and in Russia.
[00:00:31]  Is that we're decadent.
[00:00:32]  We're decadent, almost satanic.
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[00:02:03]  Raise the standard.

=== Catholic Identity and Cultural Politics (12:19) ===

[00:02:04]  Reject the slop.
[00:02:06]  Join the pursuit of the good, the true, and the beautiful.
[00:02:10]  Knickknack.
[00:02:11]  Crush your vice.
[00:02:15]  Radical Christian nationalist pastor, Joel Webbin.
[00:02:19]  Joel Webbin.
[00:02:20]  I'm going to talk about Joel Webbin.
[00:02:22]  Joel Webbin is an excellent.
[00:02:43]  Nick, you're a papist, right?
[00:02:48]  You're a worshiper of Satan.
[00:02:52]  You're Catholic.
[00:02:53]  I'm Protestant.
[00:02:54]  We have deep divides.
[00:02:56]  I think there's so much that we have in common.
[00:02:58]  And I like to emphasize that because right now it's like when you're on the ropes, you know what I mean?
[00:03:06]  I know it's kind of gay, but like elves and dwarves, if there's orcs at the gates, right?
[00:03:12]  Okay, let's drop our disagreements and we've got a country to save.
[00:03:17]  But it's just not true if we pretend like there's not a divide.
[00:03:22]  Right.
[00:03:23]  So, this is not the battle today, not the quintessential one, but like people died over our differences.
[00:03:31]  Yeah.
[00:03:32]  It has been a battle.
[00:03:34]  And if I had to bet, I think it will be won again.
[00:03:39]  It's just not a battle now because we have a more pressing threat.
[00:03:42]  But for that future time in the province of God, whenever it does happen, you know, when we beat the orcs and then we can afford as elves and dwarves, I'll let the viewer decide which one of us is a dwarf.
[00:03:56]  But when we actually have the luxury, division, I've often said this division is the luxury of victory.
[00:04:04]  You have to win first against your enemy before you can actually have disagreements with your friend.
[00:04:10]  Right.
[00:04:10]  And I do consider you a friend, and I consider Catholics friends.
[00:04:15]  So eventually, when we win with the orcs, we can afford to fight this battle.
[00:04:23]  But what are some of the things that we could tell young men ahead of time when that day comes?
[00:04:29]  You know, like what can we prepare them with as they're thinking through how we need Christian nationalism?
[00:04:35]  I think we like, I don't think the West survives without it.
[00:04:39]  You can't have Protestant and Catholic.
[00:04:41]  Like, someone is going to be in charge, someone's going to win.
[00:04:45]  Right.
[00:04:45]  You know, I hope whoever wins maybe doesn't imprison and drown, you know, the opposing team.
[00:04:51]  Right.
[00:04:51]  Like, but someone's going to win.
[00:04:53]  You don't all get to be in charge.
[00:04:54]  It's going to be Catholic or it's going to be Protestant.
[00:04:56]  What do you think it's going to be?
[00:05:00]  Who do you think is going to win?
[00:05:01]  Why?
[00:05:03]  And let's start there.
[00:05:03]  And then we can talk about the divide and some of the, you know, what are the differences, those kinds of things, and why it matters to have, you know, some semblance of peace right now in this moment.
[00:05:11]  But first, because we were talking about this offline, and I think some predictions are fun.
[00:05:20]  Do you think America is going to become Catholic?
[00:05:23]  It's difficult to say because, of course, Catholics are still in the minority.
[00:05:27]  And Catholicism is not really, at least at the time of the founding of the country, it's not part of our national character.
[00:05:34]  When you look at the Articles of Confederation, when you look at the Constitution and the whole premise, it's based on the Enlightenment, it's based on individualism.
[00:05:46]  The country does not have Catholicism inherently in its DNA.
[00:05:50]  Yeah, it doesn't.
[00:05:50]  Literally in its charter, in its founding.
[00:05:54]  And so, you know, I've gone back and forth with a lot of people on our side about this.
[00:06:00]  And they say it's sort of preposterous to say that America will one day be traditional Catholic.
[00:06:06]  Because it's not even just Catholic, traditional Catholic.
[00:06:10]  Because even among the Catholics, so few actually adhere to all the Catholic beliefs.
[00:06:16]  And that's everywhere, but especially here.
[00:06:18]  I'm glad you brought that up because now feel free to push back because I could be wrong.
[00:06:22]  But in my perception of Catholicism, one of the ways that it differs from Protestants is historically when Catholics come in and they're, you know, They're colonizing this country or whatever.
[00:06:37]  Catholicism seems to synchronize.
[00:06:40]  And so, like, I think of Haiti.
[00:06:42]  I was like, oh, well, Haiti's great, and we can take all the Haitians, you know, because they're Christian now, you know, like Catholics.
[00:06:48]  But before Catholicism, you know, came and settled, you know, Haiti, the national religion was voodoo.
[00:06:56]  And then you look at the particular vein of Catholicism in Haiti, and it's like, I still see a lot of voodoo.
[00:07:05]  Still see a lot of, you know, mojo, wojo, you know, weird, kind of wacky stuff.
[00:07:09]  And then even like Mexico.
[00:07:11]  Like Catholicism in Mexico seems to be far more superstitious than Catholicism in Western European countries.
[00:07:18]  We're here in America.
[00:07:20]  And all that back to America, the Catholicism in America, because it's not like settling Haiti, witchcraft, or Mexico and certain characteristics there, but in America, because it was Protestant, even the Catholics in America, it seems to be like a particular kind of Catholicism that is somewhat synchronized with a Protestant spirit.
[00:07:44]  It's different than Catholicism in France or Italy.
[00:07:49]  Right.
[00:07:49]  That's more like high church.
[00:07:51]  Like Catholic here, it's kind of like even the Catholics have some built in aversion to the funny hats and the robes and the tassels.
[00:08:01]  They're like, be a little bit more of a blue collar Catholic priest.
[00:08:06]  Yeah, it has been Americanized.
[00:08:08]  And there's also been, just like everywhere, sort of an apostasy where.
[00:08:14]  You know, because I'm a Catholic and that sort of means something different to me, ironically, than it means to other Catholics.
[00:08:21]  Because the whole point of Catholicity is the unity, right?
[00:08:25]  That we all have the same doctrine, that there's something common.
[00:08:29]  But among probably 95% of American Catholics, I think that's even literally the number.
[00:08:34]  They don't, for example, believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, they don't actually believe in transubstantiation, which is a really big deal.
[00:08:43]  That's amazing.
[00:08:43]  And so.
[00:08:44]  Yeah, it's.
[00:08:45]  I love it.
[00:08:46]  Well, for us, it's not so good.
[00:08:49]  But so when you say, will America become Catholic?
[00:08:54]  There's sort of a bigger question inside of that, which is, what is it to be an American Catholic?
[00:08:58]  And I think that what you are seeing is that the revival of Catholicism in America is among the contingent of the more traditional Catholics.
[00:09:09]  There are a lot of younger people that are attending the Catholic Mass or converting to Catholicism.
[00:09:15]  And yes, and they're all attending the Latin Mass.
[00:09:18]  They're members of the Society of St. Pius X. They're very traditional.
[00:09:25]  And I think a lot of that is, I think some of that is ideological.
[00:09:30]  I think some of that is an expression of an ideological or cultural identity, which is to say that, you know, a traditional Catholic convert from Generation Z, you could probably take a guess at his politics and, you know, maybe what internet groups he's a part of or things.
[00:09:48]  Like it comes with a whole kind of other identity.
[00:09:51]  So, you wonder how durable that is.
[00:09:54]  And this is something even on my show that I push back against people that they're rejoining the church because this is just another part of a costume.
[00:10:05]  It's just another thing that you do that's a part of a broader identity.
[00:10:09]  I wonder how durable that is.
[00:10:11]  But I do believe that in the future, which are going to be the denominations that are preeminent, it's going to actually be the ones that are, I think, the most traditional.
[00:10:23]  And the strongest.
[00:10:24]  And it's even ones that we're not thinking of.
[00:10:26]  You're Protestant, I'm Catholic.
[00:10:28]  But the ones that have the higher birth rate, it's the Mormons.
[00:10:33]  It's the Amish.
[00:10:34]  It's the ones where they actually have this sense of togetherness.
[00:10:39]  They're the strongest horse, you could say.
[00:10:41]  They're not the biggest, they're not the most widespread, but they're the kind of most cohesive and have the strongest sense of in group identity.
[00:10:49]  And so in the future, I do see a contingent of traditional Catholics that are having lots of kids, big families.
[00:10:57]  And I know their kids are going to be Catholic and their grandkids are going to be Catholic.
[00:11:02]  And I think that's also true with, I'm less familiar with the landscape, but maybe for Reformed Protestants and maybe for certain sects of Protestantism.
[00:11:11]  Not Joel Osteen, megachurch, fog machine, but in the more traditional Reformed sector that I'm a part of, I mean, the average size family in my church is probably five to eight kids.
[00:11:27]  I mean, big families.
[00:11:29]  Right.
[00:11:29]  And whoever has kids, that is who will rule the day.
[00:11:33]  They will rule the roost.
[00:11:35]  So I think that.
[00:11:37]  It's a question of whether, to me, the bigger question first is secular or Christian, because the country is deeply secular.
[00:11:44]  And if you have, even among competing Christian factions, if there's no consensus, that's really where liberalism comes from.
[00:11:52]  There's a great book by a famous Straussian, Pierre Manet.
[00:11:57]  He writes about the origins of liberalism.
[00:12:00]  And he says that it's basically this agreement to defer all religious disagreements.
[00:12:06]  Because if in the Thirty Years' War, if in the religious conflicts, It's just a war of everyone against everyone over Calvinism and Protestantism and Catholicism.
[00:12:17]  We're just never going to have peace.
[00:12:19]  It says, so let's all just agree on some fundamentals, and we could have Christians and maybe Jews and maybe also Muslims and Indians.
[00:12:27]  So there might be a kind of new secular consensus with like a cultural Christianity.
[00:12:32]  I think maybe that's the most likely.
[00:12:34]  That seems very likely.
[00:12:36]  And I think that's maybe tolerable.
[00:12:39]  But if it's going to be one denomination, that would be an improvement, but it's not sustainable long term.
[00:12:43]  No, I agree with you.
[00:12:45]  And then the question after that is, is it going to devolve into regionalism?
[00:12:50]  You know, because it is regional.
[00:12:52]  The Southerners are more Protestant.
[00:12:54]  The Yankees are more Catholic.
[00:12:56]  And out west are more Mormon.
[00:12:58]  You know, in the Midwest, you get Mennonites and Amish.
[00:13:03]  But I, as a Catholic, of course, I'm biased.
[00:13:06]  I tend to believe that Catholics have the strongest claim.
[00:13:10]  I think that we have the story, we have the apostolic succession.
[00:13:14]  I mean, you know, the benefits, the sacraments.
[00:13:19]  And I think that the weakness of Protestantism is that it's inherently entropic.
[00:13:24]  It's always in the classic Catholic critique without that unity and authority that proceeds from the Pope and the central institution.
[00:13:32]  Everybody becomes their own Pope.
[00:13:34]  Yeah, you get it.
[00:13:35]  You still have a Pope, 300 million churches, 300 million popes.
[00:13:39]  Right.
[00:13:39]  Yeah.
[00:13:39]  So I think you're right about a lot of that.
[00:13:43]  You know, we were talking before this episode just for fun because it's a fascinating topic and it really, really matters because you're talking about the soul of the nation and what will its religion be that's going to be the cohesive.
[00:13:53]  Glue that holds the people together and binds them.
[00:13:55]  It's got to be religion.
[00:13:56]  Secularism, it's, you know, Rush Duny, he was like a theonomic Protestant reform guy, and he once said, it's not whether, but which.
[00:14:06]  So it's not whether a country, you know, a nation is going to have a religion, but just which one will it be.
[00:14:11]  And secularism, when you think about it, really, really was and really is a religion in and of itself.
[00:14:17]  You know, I mean, it's not whether we'll have sacraments, but which ones.
[00:14:21]  Oh, abortion is a sacrament.
[00:14:23]  Oh, sodomy is a sacrament.

=== The Soul of the Nation (02:42) ===

[00:14:24]  It's not whether we'll have priest and priest, priestess, you know, but which ones?
[00:14:28]  Oh, the priest Fauci, you know, this priest.
[00:14:31]  So people are inherently religious.
[00:14:34]  And that's what culture is.
[00:14:35]  Culture, it just comes from the Latin word cultus, which is to worship.
[00:14:40]  We're made in the image of God.
[00:14:41]  We're going to worship someone, something.
[00:14:43]  We're going to have some kind of religion.
[00:14:46]  And I think that that's inevitable.
[00:14:48]  Up to date, NXR Studios is the only right wing media company to produce a 10 part, in depth series with Nicholas J. Fuentes.
[00:14:58]  And within a week and a half of uploading this series to Patreon for early access members and accruing almost 3,500 people interested in watching the series, Patreon completely deactivated our account without giving us a single warning.
[00:15:16]  Now, this is the part of the show where most content creators would come out and beg for support.
[00:15:22]  They direct you to their GoFundMe or Gumroad or something like that, saying, We need you, the listener, to rally behind us and give your charitable donations to keep us in the fight.
[00:15:33]  But that's not what we're here for.
[00:15:35]  See, NXR Studios, our purpose for existence is not to be sheltered and protected by our listeners, but rather to shelter and protect you.
[00:15:45]  Our job is to be the frontline infantry that provides cover fire for you, the churchmen, the fathers, the blue collar worker.
[00:15:54]  See, we can afford to take the hit, but you shouldn't have to.
[00:15:58]  The real tragedy in all this is that some of you gave your hard earned money to watch this series in advance, and it was taken down before you got to see.
[00:16:07]  All the content you were robbed by Patreon.
[00:16:11]  So, what are we going to do about it?
[00:16:13]  We're not only going to double down by making the series available on another platform, we're doing that, but we're actually going to triple down by making the full 10 part series absolutely free.
[00:16:25]  We're starting our own platform, NXR Plus, where we'll be regularly providing valuable content exclusive for our members, including right now this 10 part series.
[00:16:37]  With Nicholas J. Fuentes.
[00:16:39]  And in light of Patreon's recent Jewish behavior, the first month for everyone who signs up is on us.
[00:16:47]  So go and binge watch the full 10 part series with Nick Fuentes and myself absolutely free first month by going to members.nxrstudios.com.
[00:16:59]  Again, that's members.nxrstudios.com.

=== Protestant Ethos in American Founding (14:30) ===

[00:17:06]  But when I think of America and its founding, Even before 1776, and thinking about make America great again, when I think, let's go back, I'm like, it's like back to the founding.
[00:17:19]  I'm like, oh, some of the founders were a little gay.
[00:17:22]  But what about the 1600s?
[00:17:24]  Let's get back to the 13 colonies.
[00:17:26]  Let's get back to some of this stuff.
[00:17:28]  But there's no denying.
[00:17:29]  I mean, you as a Catholic, you would say, yeah, America was founded as a Protestant nation, right?
[00:17:34]  So that seems undeniable.
[00:17:38]  But I think what I would say in response to what you were saying is that.
[00:17:43]  What seemed to be kind of the greatest strength of Protestantism early on in the settling and formation of America has now, in many ways, become a liability.
[00:17:53]  And what I mean by that is, like, we forget, you know, we'll talk about, like, you know, the size of the country in terms of numerically the people and all the immigrants.
[00:18:00]  There's too many people, you know, like 100 billion have to go back.
[00:18:04]  You know, we need to import all of India just so we can deport them.
[00:18:07]  And, you know, like, this many people have to go back.
[00:18:09]  But take the people aside.
[00:18:11]  America is a massive country just in terms of the land, like, the literal geographic size of the country.
[00:18:17]  And so you think about settling a landmass of that size.
[00:18:21]  And you think of like early on, it's like, yeah, it was preachers doing, you know, horseback circuits, you know, go to like on the Lord's Day, they would preach in, you know, 10 different towns, you know, and make their circuit and go around.
[00:18:34]  And there was something like necessary, not even ideal, but necessary with the Protestant ethos, whether the Protestant work ethic or the priesthood of all believers, and that it's not just the clergy elevated among the You know, above the plebes, but it's like everyone's a part of this project.
[00:18:55]  And there's something also to the simplicity of Protestantism that at the founding, in the beginning, was an asset.
[00:19:04]  And I think an indispensable asset.
[00:19:07]  Like, what does it take just in brass tacks?
[00:19:09]  What does it take to do church?
[00:19:11]  Well, it takes two or three gathered in my name.
[00:19:14]  So if we have a town with more than two people, one biblically qualified man who knows the Bible and can preach, and he needs to come on a horse, and we just need to make sure we have water, bread, Wine, a Bible, and a biblically qualified man, and at least one other person.
[00:19:29]  And we can do church.
[00:19:31]  We don't have to have the cathedral.
[00:19:33]  We don't have to have the robes and the tassels and the incense and these kinds of things.
[00:19:37]  There's a simplicity.
[00:19:39]  And when you're pioneers, you know what I mean?
[00:19:41]  And it's this huge landmass, and there's Indians and then weather and all the elements that you're battling, and you don't even know if you can get food, to be able to say, We're going to go in the field and have church this Sunday.
[00:19:57]  You know, it's almost like if it was going to be Christian at all, it almost had to be Protestantism.
[00:20:05]  It almost had to.
[00:20:07]  But now the asset, the advantage in many ways has become a liability in the sense that, all right, well, we're kind of settled now, right?
[00:20:16]  We have roads, you know, we have buildings, we have people over 300 million people.
[00:20:24]  And now it's like what Americans brag about, kind of that, like politically, it would be libertarianism.
[00:20:29]  And the religious version is kind of the Protestant version.
[00:20:32]  Spirit and not all denominations like Anglicans have hierarchy, right?
[00:20:37]  In their ecclesiastical polity, there's order, there's um, but but you look at America and the landscape, most Protestants are non denominational.
[00:20:46]  I mean, that isn't that like just perfect American, you know?
[00:20:49]  Like, I'm an American Christian, okay.
[00:20:51]  What denomination?
[00:20:53]  None, you know, like that's like, of course, okay, okay, boomer, um, you know, or Baptist, I'm a Baptist, I have to own this.
[00:21:00]  Um, but here's the thing about Baptist is when it comes to polity governance, um, there's no hierarchy.
[00:21:07]  Baptists, like one of the quintessential things, other than, of course, like credo baptism, you know, rather than pedo baptism, infant baptism, on the polity side, Baptists, we pride ourselves in local church autonomy.
[00:21:20]  There's no pope here.
[00:21:21]  In fact, there's not even a bishop.
[00:21:23]  There's not even a presbyter.
[00:21:24]  There's not like nobody can tell us what to do.
[00:21:26]  Nobody, you know.
[00:21:28]  And you look at the landscape in America with Protestants, it's not Anglicans, it's not Episcopalians, and it's kind of their fault because they became super gay.
[00:21:35]  That's on them.
[00:21:36]  But it's mainly Baptist, Methodist, and non denominational.
[00:21:40]  And those are the big three.
[00:21:42]  And I think that, like, that kind of polity that could be atomistic, it could be independent, right?
[00:21:49]  Like, where I, you know, because there is no representative that's going to be able to come from Massachusetts.
[00:21:53]  And, like, we're on the other side of the country.
[00:21:56]  We've got to be able to be self sufficient, not just practically, physically, politically, but even religiously.
[00:22:02]  We need to be able to do church and settle our disputes and preach the word, minister sacraments, all these kinds of things.
[00:22:08]  And we got to do it at home.
[00:22:09]  Nobody's coming, you know, we're isolated, you know.
[00:22:12]  And so I think it had to be Protestants and particularly Baptists, and eventually that kind of devolving into non denominational guys early on.
[00:22:22]  Now, in many ways, it's like we have to be now, it's the opposite need.
[00:22:27]  It's like we have to be organized.
[00:22:29]  Like this egalitarian crap has to go away, it has to stop.
[00:22:33]  We need hierarchy, we need authority, we need organization.
[00:22:38]  And I've said this multiple times.
[00:22:40]  I'll leave it here and go back to you, but I. People would be like, well, Joel, like you didn't even go to seminary, which is true.
[00:22:49]  You know, you're talking about Christian nationalism, you're talking about like monarchy and stuff.
[00:22:53]  And isn't that hypocritical?
[00:22:54]  And I just respond and say, like, it is an apparent inconsistency, but it's not hypocritical.
[00:23:00]  I am working for America to be the kind of nation politically, culturally, and religiously where I would not be allowed, I would not be allowed to have a YouTube channel with over 100,000 people.
[00:23:13]  Like, there's a certain point where it's like, okay, The peanut gallery just has to stop.
[00:23:19]  Right.
[00:23:20]  We actually don't need all these self appointed experts, you know, religiously, politically, but we have them because that we kind of had to have them to begin with, with this massive project that we embarked on.
[00:23:32]  And then we kind of had a second wave, like a resurgence of the everyman, you know, starting a YouTube channel and I'm listening to him instead of CNN, you know, or I'm listening to this doctor, you know, with ivermectin, which I think is fantastic rather than Faustia, because all the experts that we did have, when we finally built them in the nation, you know, were.
[00:23:49]  Couple hundred years in, and so now we have like some hierarchy, we have institutions, they all turned out to be crooks, you know.
[00:23:55]  And so now it's like back to like ground zero.
[00:23:57]  But eventually, if we're going to mature as a people, um, you're gonna have to have authority, you're gonna have to have organization, you're gonna have to, and Catholics have that.
[00:24:07]  Now, I'd like it to be Protestant, you know, of course, I'm biased.
[00:24:10]  Um, there are some Protestant versions that have that.
[00:24:13]  I think of Anglicans, um, Baptists don't really have that.
[00:24:17]  Everybody has your own church, do whatever you want.
[00:24:20]  Nobody can, there's literally no formal authoritative mechanism that can.
[00:24:24]  So, you can just have Pastor Bob, and he literally is the Pope of these 100 people, can say anything, do anything.
[00:24:31]  There's no recourse, right?
[00:24:35]  You can't do anything.
[00:24:36]  And that kind of works when you're in the in vitro stage of a country, because that's kind of the in vitro stage of the ecclesiastical polity on the religious side of that country that's just beginning.
[00:24:52]  But that's going to eventually mature, I think it has to, into something more formal.
[00:24:57]  The high church of like, that's a cathedral now.
[00:25:00]  Right.
[00:25:01]  And the pastor is not wearing flip flops, you know, and there's some kind of organization, some kind of system.
[00:25:09]  And Catholics have always had that.
[00:25:10]  I think it's possible with some sects of Protestantism, but it won't be what we have now.
[00:25:18]  And I think it's inevitable.
[00:25:19]  It's inevitable that it's going to have to evolve.
[00:25:23]  What do you think?
[00:25:23]  Yeah, I totally agree.
[00:25:24]  I think that, you know, people always remind me because I'm, Very patriotic, but I'm also Catholic.
[00:25:31]  They say, well, you know, America was founded as a Protestant country.
[00:25:34]  So we have to respect that.
[00:25:36]  We have to be Protestant forever.
[00:25:37]  But I would say that, you know, and I kind of joke around when I say this, but I say, yeah, America was founded Protestant.
[00:25:44]  Look at how that's going.
[00:25:46]  It's not going super well.
[00:25:47]  And I think that the problems with Protestantism reflect in the problems with America, which is a spirit of rebelliousness.
[00:25:56]  It is.
[00:25:57]  You know, and it's a big part of why.
[00:25:59]  I mean, look, America was a product of the Enlightenment.
[00:26:02]  The American Revolution, like the French Revolution, it's an inherently egalitarian revolution and slightly different.
[00:26:10]  But in America, even the concept of a republic, this is controversial in the 18th century that you have a republican idea of sovereignty instead of a monarchy.
[00:26:20]  It's anti clerical, it's anti monarchical.
[00:26:23]  It says we're all citizens.
[00:26:25]  No one can tell anyone what to do, the king can't tell us what to do.
[00:26:30]  We're liberated.
[00:26:33]  And liberation is not really a Christian word.
[00:26:37]  Liberation, freedom, that sort of thing, at least in the American context, in the context of the Enlightenment or liberalism itself, it's not really a good thing.
[00:26:46]  Biblically, it's bondservants or slaves of Christ.
[00:26:49]  Right.
[00:26:51]  Freedom is freedom from sin because it's been replaced.
[00:26:55]  Slavery to sin has been, again, not whether, but which.
[00:26:59]  Christian faith is slavery.
[00:27:01]  What makes it beautiful is no longer slaves to self or slaves to sin, but slaves to Christ.
[00:27:05]  But it's not whether you'll be a slave.
[00:27:08]  Whose slave will you be?
[00:27:09]  Exactly, right?
[00:27:09]  Which master do you serve?
[00:27:11]  And in America, from the very start, it's a rebellion.
[00:27:16]  And it's a rebellion against different forms of hierarchy, but in particular against the king, against that whole arrangement.
[00:27:23]  And what we've seen over the past 300 years is that the national spirit of America is rebelling against everything.
[00:27:31]  It's not a coincidence that we're the country of rock and roll and mass democracy.
[00:27:35]  And Americanism is now synonymous with.
[00:27:40]  No rules, no boundaries, you know, defying everything.
[00:27:43]  And now our export is probably actually harmful.
[00:27:46]  Like what we're exporting to the country, and this is a critique which our adversaries have seized upon in China and in Russia, is that we're decadent.
[00:27:56]  We're decadent, almost satanic, is what Putin says.
[00:28:00]  And, you know, that's, I think, political.
[00:28:03]  I wouldn't, when Putin says that, I do believe that's a form of propaganda and that's targeted at an American conservative audience.
[00:28:10]  But he's not wrong in a certain sense.
[00:28:12]  It's good propaganda.
[00:28:13]  Yes, because.
[00:28:14]  Because there's a lot of truth in that.
[00:28:17]  And so I think that in order to restore America, it does involve a restoration of we're going to have to need to reverse that rebellion and submit on some level to some form of authority, moral authority, ecclesiastical authority.
[00:28:31]  I think on some level, it's a mistake that America doesn't have any kind of king.
[00:28:35]  There's no sort of repository institution that protects the traditions, the character, maybe the greater good of America in general.
[00:28:46]  We sort of lack that.
[00:28:48]  So I agree with you.
[00:28:50]  I would disagree, though, that America even necessarily needed a Protestant phase because you had Catholic missionaries that would go out to Japan or to Africa.
[00:29:00]  You could see all the missions that were in California.
[00:29:04]  Yeah.
[00:29:06]  And they just brought the cup, they brought their toolkit to administer the sacraments, and they laid down churches.
[00:29:15]  And there are no doubt problems with Catholicism.
[00:29:20]  In, like, the Latin American countries, like you said, they're very pagan and they have remnants of paganism.
[00:29:26]  With that being said, could we not argue that, like, Mexico and some of these Latin American countries, they're more conservative than America?
[00:29:35]  And there's, it's a very complicated situation.
[00:29:38]  There could be many reasons why, but I'm from Chicago and I go sometimes to the masses in Spanish.
[00:29:47]  And anyone who is in LA, Chicago, a city with a lot of Hispanics, maybe here, they'll tell you you go to mass in an Hispanic community, and from morning until evening, it's packed.
[00:30:00]  When I was living in LA, when I was working for Kanye, I would go to mass at seven o'clock at night, and it was packed.
[00:30:08]  Like people were standing at seven o'clock.
[00:30:11]  But you'd also go in the morning, and it's packed.
[00:30:15]  And they are serious, they're crossing themselves all the time like they're true believers.
[00:30:20]  Now, in America, I think they're going to lose it.
[00:30:22]  Like the next generation and the generation after that, they're going to lose their religion.
[00:30:26]  They're going to apostatize because of the strength of our culture.
[00:30:31]  But they're coming from Mexico or they're coming from wherever with a very strong faith, very strong tradition.
[00:30:39]  And I don't think that's a coincidence.
[00:30:40]  I think that the Catholic Church has been able to preserve all those things in a way that in a rebellious, liberated country, Protestants have not been able to preserve that.
[00:30:52]  So I think inherently for America to be repaired, spiritually, we have to be repaired and go back home.
[00:30:58]  And for me, that's Rome.
[00:31:00]  You know, from my point of view, that's Rome.
[00:31:02]  But I think even on some level, you were talking earlier, you recognized that maybe it's a more hierarchical version of Protestantism.
[00:31:09]  I think it has to be.
[00:31:10]  It needs to go back there.
[00:31:12]  Yeah.
[00:31:12]  The rebellious spirit, I think you put your finger right on the point.
[00:31:16]  It has to go.
[00:31:18]  We have to repent of our rebellion.
[00:31:22]  We are a rebellious, individualistic people.
[00:31:28]  And we've got to stop that.
[00:31:29]  And that rebellion has progressed.
[00:31:31]  It's evolved.
[00:31:32]  It's become worse.
[00:31:33]  So, you know, there was a time where it's like, well, it's just against kings.

=== Repenting Our Rebellious Nature (14:56) ===

[00:31:37]  And now it's kind of against any civil authority, you know?
[00:31:39]  And, well, it's just against, you know, villages and, you know, feudal lord system.
[00:31:44]  Well, now it's against even individual families, right?
[00:31:48]  I'm not a member of my family.
[00:31:49]  I'm an individual, you know?
[00:31:51]  So it's like, at this point, it's like rebellion all the way down to.
[00:31:55]  You know, it's like now trying to split the atom.
[00:31:57]  So now it's literally even not just rebelling against mom and dad at the molecular level of a family, but even at the atomistic level, multiple personality disorder or rejecting yourself through transgenderism.
[00:32:09]  Like, you're rebelling against yourself now.
[00:32:11]  It's like, I mean, it's almost comical if it wasn't so tragic.
[00:32:15]  And so, yeah, we've got to repent of the rebellious spirit that is just innate with who America is and kind of was always there, you know, and it just kind of snowballed over time.
[00:32:27]  There was a lot of great stuff.
[00:32:28]  I love our country.
[00:32:29]  I know you do too.
[00:32:31]  But to pretend that our founding was perfect, to pretend that the bugs in the system weren't there from the beginning, I think is a bit naive.
[00:32:41]  Like, I think we should have been more explicit in the founding documents.
[00:32:44]  Yeah.
[00:32:45]  We should have just, like, King Jesus, name him, say his name.
[00:32:49]  You know, I wish we would have.
[00:32:52]  I understand the founders.
[00:32:53]  I don't think they could even conceive of, you know, well, one day there'll be millions of Muslims, you know, or something like that.
[00:32:59]  So I think I can see their reasoning.
[00:33:02]  For why, you know, like the First Amendment.
[00:33:05]  Like people always say that, like, well, they can't, you know, you can't require religion.
[00:33:09]  And so you can set up a 90 foot tall, you know, statue outside of Houston, you know, that's like the Muslim sand demon, you know, because the First Amendment is like, well, Congress shall make.
[00:33:19]  Like, I don't think we should have a federal church in America.
[00:33:23]  But there's actually, I mean, even the 13 colonies, they all had state churches.
[00:33:26]  So there's technically nothing constitutional against Texas having a state church, you know, and Pennsylvania having a state church.
[00:33:34]  Even with the First Amendment, there's nothing against that.
[00:33:36]  Congress can't do this.
[00:33:39]  But my point is the fact that that's so easily misinterpreted now.
[00:33:43]  People don't even have the context for authorial intent.
[00:33:45]  And they literally think, like, what was in the mind of George Washington was carving out a space for voodoo.
[00:33:53]  It's like, people literally think that.
[00:33:56]  That's what makes America so great.
[00:33:58]  So even if it wasn't their intent, they left the door open for where we are today.
[00:34:03]  And you can go back and argue till you're blue in the face, but this is what they meant.
[00:34:08]  This is what they meant.
[00:34:09]  At a certain level, though, you might just have to say, well, they were wrong.
[00:34:12]  Yeah.
[00:34:13]  They were wrong.
[00:34:15]  And just because they were wrong then doesn't mean we have to be wrong forever.
[00:34:19]  We actually can, we love the founders in many ways, but also Benjamin Franklin was a degenerate, you know, and Thomas Jefferson was ripping out, you know, pages of the Bible.
[00:34:32]  Like these guys were not perfect men.
[00:34:35]  Right.
[00:34:36]  If you had told Stephen, as stones were crushing his body, that he was dying for a shared Judeo Christian foundation, He would have called it blasphemy.
[00:34:47]  The first martyr died proclaiming Christ alone, not a hyphenated faith shared with those who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and who drove out the apostles and, as the Apostle Paul declared, opposed all mankind.
[00:35:02]  Learn why the church has always stood apart in the hyphenated heresy, Judeo Christianity.
[00:35:10]  Reclaim the faith of the martyrs and pick up your copy today at Amazon.com.
[00:35:19]  And I love that because, you know, when you say that you're an American patriot or America first, we do sort of like deify the founding fathers.
[00:35:30]  And I see a lot of Protestants do this also.
[00:35:33]  In Washington on the National Mall, they're literally like pagan gods.
[00:35:38]  It's like statues of them, like Zeus.
[00:35:40]  It's literally designed to be like Zeus or like Apollo.
[00:35:44]  And I love that because it's like, yeah, they were fallible, they were flawed, they actually were not God, and they are not saints, and they weren't perfect.
[00:35:53]  You know, like you said, the seeds, the germ of it was kind of there from the beginning.
[00:35:58]  And now we have this prospect kind of getting back to the orcs versus the elves and the hobbits or the elves and the dwarves or all three or whatever.
[00:36:07]  Now we have a situation where you could have, like in New York, a Muslim mayor of the city and, you know, talking about Jewish people running for president and a prospect of maybe a secular person.
[00:36:20]  What even do they believe in?
[00:36:22]  I mean, can a person even truly believe?
[00:36:24]  That's like you said, secularism can be like a substitute for religion, but if you're not serving any God, maybe you're serving the devil.
[00:36:32]  Yeah.
[00:36:32]  And that's kind of who we might have running our country.
[00:36:36]  And if you think of the leader of the country as the father of the nation, the country as a unit, it all proceeds from the top.
[00:36:45]  So this has given way to it.
[00:36:47]  It's a huge opening for error and for problems.
[00:36:51]  And on some level, if you just believe in Americanism or the American ideology, what even could you say against that?
[00:36:59]  You know, could you say it would be arbitrary?
[00:37:02]  Muslims should not be president.
[00:37:05]  Jews should not be president.
[00:37:07]  What about senator?
[00:37:07]  What about Supreme Court?
[00:37:09]  Can they write the laws, enforce the laws, interpret the laws?
[00:37:13]  Where does it begin?
[00:37:14]  Where does it end?
[00:37:14]  And who's to say who's allowed and who isn't?
[00:37:17]  And I think anyone on some level would recognize it's not American.
[00:37:22]  It's also not right that we have like polytheistic gods.
[00:37:26]  They're building giant statues of them all over our country.
[00:37:30]  Are we going to live in a giant duale festival until the end of time?
[00:37:34]  Like, no, that's not Western.
[00:37:36]  It's not American.
[00:37:37]  That's not Christian.
[00:37:39]  It's not right.
[00:37:40]  It's not the truth.
[00:37:41]  And so there needs to be some recognition that that has to go in reverse and it has to go towards an explicit identification of America as a Christian nation.
[00:37:53]  And I think the basics are getting back to the Catholic Protestant unity, we believe in Jesus Christ.
[00:38:00]  We believe in his resurrection.
[00:38:02]  We believe in the gospels.
[00:38:04]  That's who we are.
[00:38:05]  And that's what our country is going to be.
[00:38:08]  And if you don't like it, Leave, and you can't have any authority over us.
[00:38:13]  If you're not a Christian, then you're a guest.
[00:38:16]  Exactly.
[00:38:16]  And can behave like one.
[00:38:18]  Behave like one, and you have no authority over Christians, over a Christian country, if that is not your creed.
[00:38:27]  And for a time, there might have even been a valid counter argument, maybe for the Jews, but now you have Israel.
[00:38:36]  So if they want to say, maybe 100 years ago, if they wanted to say, well, what about us?
[00:38:42]  Well, now there is an explicitly Jewish nationalist state in the Middle East alongside all the Muslim countries.
[00:38:50]  So, if you want Islam, if you want Hinduism, if you even want rabbinical Judaism, there are plenty of other countries.
[00:38:57]  You have a place to go.
[00:38:58]  Right.
[00:38:59]  But this is a Christian nation.
[00:39:00]  And so, and that is the basis of Christian nationalism.
[00:39:04]  It's almost like you're a Zionist.
[00:39:05]  You want the Jews to go home.
[00:39:07]  I want them to actually have a nation state and stay in it.
[00:39:10]  Right.
[00:39:11]  Stay over there.
[00:39:12]  No, I completely agree.
[00:39:14]  Here's another thing.
[00:39:15]  So, you were talking about America in particular, and one of the arguments that Protestants would use, and I agree with it, but I think you gave a good counter.
[00:39:23]  But one of the arguments is well, but America was historically Protestant, so it's never allowed to be Catholic.
[00:39:28]  Okay, take America in particular aside, and just thinking of nationalism on a global scale.
[00:39:35]  You're a nationalist, at least as far as it goes.
[00:39:37]  I'm a nationalist.
[00:39:40]  That's one of my problems with Catholicism.
[00:39:41]  So, we can get into the theology in a moment.
[00:39:44]  Obviously, I would disagree with.
[00:39:47]  Theological points, primarily as it pertains to soteriology, salvation, but still speaking like politically and how religion works in tandem with national politics.
[00:40:00]  Catholicism, so I believe the Christian religion is universal, every tribe, tongue, and nation.
[00:40:06]  Christianity is not a white religion, it's a human religion, it's for all peoples.
[00:40:13]  And now I don't deny that over the last 1500 years, starting from Constantine or at least the last millennia, starting with King Alfred.
[00:40:21]  God has providentially worked in a unique way with Westerners.
[00:40:25]  There's no doubt, which is incredible.
[00:40:27]  And praise God for his grace.
[00:40:29]  But I want as many people to be saved as possible.
[00:40:33]  I'd also like for them to stay in their country, you know, but I'd like for them to be saved.
[00:40:38]  I don't mind if they're my neighbors in heaven because the FBI, you know, crime statistics in heaven will be zero.
[00:40:44]  You know, there's no more sin.
[00:40:45]  We'll be okay.
[00:40:46]  So, all that being said, I do want nationalism, though, and Catholicism, it's not just universal.
[00:40:53]  Protestants in our view of Christianity and salvation is universal.
[00:40:57]  But there's a difference in a universal Christian religion and a globalism.
[00:41:01]  And I think of Catholicism like it actually has a global headquarters.
[00:41:06]  Whereas Protestantism, now I've already admitted it fractured too much.
[00:41:11]  It's one thing to go down molecular, it's another to go down to atomistic.
[00:41:16]  And so Protestantism has become so fractured and isolated and individualistic that it really has become a rebellious spirit and a problem.
[00:41:25]  But to go all the way to where it's, I mean, the vicar of Christ, there's like one dude and one headquarters, and it's not just a spiritual headquarters, it's a geographic locale for all the world.
[00:41:38]  So it's like, so when I think of nationalism politically and culturally, and knowing that there's going to have to be the national religious piece, how can Catholicism be conducive with nationalism?
[00:41:55]  I think that the way Catholics look at the nations, what G.K. Chesterton said is that the church is the mother of the nations, created the nations, because all the nations are under kings, Catholic kings.
[00:42:09]  And I don't, at least in the 21st century, I don't hate the idea of the church having a global headquarters because I like the idea that a head of state will listen to the advice of a spiritual leader, that there's someone kind of over and above.
[00:42:25]  And not representing.
[00:42:27]  But wouldn't it be great if each nation had that spiritual leader in their nation?
[00:42:30]  No, because you know that, like, for example, with Russia and Ukraine, their Orthodox churches, which are national, have kind of become a party to their conflict.
[00:42:42]  And that's one of the reasons the Russian Orthodox church is persecuted in Ukraine, is because Ukraine sees it as an extension of the Russian state, as operatives of the Russian state.
[00:42:52]  And I like the idea of the Pope.
[00:42:55]  As a unifying figure that can give advice to the heads of state as a spiritual father and be on some level neutral in a political sense.
[00:43:08]  But I do agree that in recent years, I'll give some concession here, which is that the Pope is clearly embraced a globalist ideology.
[00:43:19]  I mean, I saw the tweets when they selected, you know, I seen, you know, like some of his tweets on immigration.
[00:43:25]  I was like, oh, this is not great.
[00:43:26]  It's brutal.
[00:43:27]  And then to follow it up with blessing blocks of ice.
[00:43:29]  It's like, yeah.
[00:43:30]  That was a hard day.
[00:43:31]  I felt for you.
[00:43:32]  I was like, this is.
[00:43:34]  It's been a tough 25 years on the planet.
[00:43:36]  It was a tough moment, yeah.
[00:43:37]  Or I guess ever since Pope Francis, maybe.
[00:43:39]  Benedict wasn't so bad, but clearly Pope Francis and now this new pope apparently also, it is taking an anti national bent ideologically, critical of borders, the existence of borders, this kind of climate politics, which does kind of beg for.
[00:44:00]  A global political action.
[00:44:03]  And so to me, that seems like, oh, that's just the consistent application of Catholicism.
[00:44:09]  Right.
[00:44:09]  I see those, I actually see those actions of like, this is the natural, the logical outflow.
[00:44:14]  But you're saying, to be fair to your argument, you're saying, no, I don't think that's inherent to Catholicism.
[00:44:19]  No, I don't.
[00:44:20]  I think that that just sort of goes with the territory.
[00:44:24]  I think that the Catholic Church, the older generations are very liberal because the Catholic Church was animated in the last century by social justice, which had a different kind of flavor.
[00:44:35]  And, you know, they were, you know, it's the love of the poor.
[00:44:39]  It's this sort of thing, particularly among the Jesuits.
[00:44:42]  And that's what we had a Jesuit pope for many years.
[00:44:46]  I think that as time goes on, the newer generations of the clergy will reflect kind of the contemporary spiritual state of Catholics in reaction to feminism, postmodernism, nihilism.
[00:44:59]  I think you're going to get maybe a different flavor down the road.
[00:45:02]  And I would say maybe the benefit of being Catholic.
[00:45:06]  Or the asterisk next to it is that the Pope is only infallible in very specific contexts, right?
[00:45:14]  Which has only been invoked twice on Marian dogmas, not on open borders.
[00:45:19]  You know, the way that some Protestants critique it, you'd think that that's true.
[00:45:22]  It's an infallible dogma, like thou shalt not have borders, which is not really the case.
[00:45:27]  But I will admit the current clergy is very liberal.
[00:45:31]  And I do think that they've frequently crossed the line into pushing a globalist ideology.
[00:45:36]  But I don't think that's inherent in the religion.
[00:45:39]  I think you're right.
[00:45:41]  Right before they selected the most recent pope, I like to predict it's just fun.
[00:45:47]  It's not even that I think I'm particularly good at it.
[00:45:50]  I have a decent batting average, but it's just fun, you know.
[00:45:53]  And it takes some courage because when you're predicting something, you could be wrong.
[00:45:56]  But people are like, we're going to get a based pope.
[00:46:00]  And I was like, I think you're going to get a gay pope.
[00:46:04]  And I think the reason why is because it wasn't just arbitrary.
[00:46:08]  I had a reasoning behind it because the Catholic Church is a massive institution and institutions are always behind the people.
[00:46:16]  They move more slowly.
[00:46:17]  And so that's the strength, right?
[00:46:19]  So that's the strength of Catholicism.
[00:46:22]  So with Protestants, it could divide and conquer.
[00:46:27]  And, like I was arguing, I think that in many ways that was necessary in America's founding.

=== Catholic Unity Versus Protestant Division (15:42) ===

[00:46:34]  But then it became a liability where we are today.
[00:46:36]  Catholicism, kind of like the flip of that, it's cohesive, it's organized, it's unified.
[00:46:43]  And the benefit of that is that you don't have a random coup in this church, and this new person becomes a pastor, and it's a chick with blue hair.
[00:46:54]  Catholics can avoid that in a way that sadly some Protestants cannot.
[00:46:59]  So it moves more slowly.
[00:47:01]  That's the advantage.
[00:47:03]  The disadvantage is that when things are already off the rails and you're not, so you slowly compromise, right?
[00:47:12]  Whereas Protestants compromised fast.
[00:47:15]  Right.
[00:47:15]  Slowly compromise.
[00:47:16]  Okay, that's a strength.
[00:47:17]  The weakness, though, is like, okay, but once you're compromised, to reform it is also going to be slow.
[00:47:24]  And so my prediction was it's like, well, look at what's happening around the world, Hungary, you know, and Bukele with El Salvador.
[00:47:32]  I think we're going to get a base Catholic pope.
[00:47:33]  And I was like, no, the Catholic Church will probably be 20 years behind this transition.
[00:47:38]  So we're actually probably going to experience the worst of the whole, you know, of secularism coming to a head, what we experience culturally and politically.
[00:47:47]  You'll probably get the aftershock of that religious, you know, within the Catholics' expression of that secularism 20 years after the fact, you know, because they'll still be catching up.
[00:47:57]  And then in that generation will have to die, kind of almost like Joshua, you know, or Moses with the Israelites wandering the desert, because it's like, We've got an entire generation that doesn't get, you know, they got to die off before, you know, the next one gets to go in with Joshua and Caleb.
[00:48:11]  And I think that that's so.
[00:48:13]  I think you probably do get a based Catholic pope after 20 years after politically and culturally things have already kind of righted.
[00:48:23]  Yeah.
[00:48:24]  And I would say that to the credit of the Catholic Church, you're right.
[00:48:28]  It's a very conservative institution, not like ideologically, but like temperamentally.
[00:48:33]  It's like you said, it's slow to change.
[00:48:35]  And unfortunately, what's conservative now is like being a mainstream liberal or something like that.
[00:48:42]  But I just lost my train of thought.
[00:48:45]  What were we saying about.
[00:48:46]  Well, just it changes slowly, and maybe we'll get a conservative pope.
[00:48:49]  Oh, yes.
[00:48:51]  To the credit of the Catholic Church, it will never be progressive, which is, and I think to your point about the critique with Protestants, not something that you could really take for granted, which is to say that in the 21st century, in the current year, when.
[00:49:10]  They're outdoing themselves with how radical they can get with transgenderism.
[00:49:15]  And it seems like the dominoes fall so quickly.
[00:49:18]  It went from like everybody seemed to sort of be against homosexuality.
[00:49:22]  And now it's like if you're not on board with like transgender kids, you know, you're a Nazi, you're a fascist.
[00:49:28]  The Catholic Church, to its credit, is holding the line against all of it against feminism, against every form, contraceptives, you know, even sodomy, like, you know, within marriage, within the heterosexual.
[00:49:44]  It's very conservative in terms of the politics of sex, sexuality itself.
[00:49:51]  The gender dynamics.
[00:49:53]  It's conservative in the face of all of that stuff, which, you know, on the contrary, with a lot of Protestant sects, I mean, they are as liberal as it gets.
[00:50:03]  And I recognize it's not all of them, but you've got Protestant churches with straight up BLM, trans, rainbow flags.
[00:50:10]  And, you know, in this period of radical change, the Catholic Church seems to be one of the only things that stays the same.
[00:50:20]  And, you know, and I understand that.
[00:50:22]  Of course, there are liberal priests and liberal bishops.
[00:50:25]  And, you know, even in Europe, they're rebelling.
[00:50:28]  They're pushing the envelope.
[00:50:30]  They're trying to bless gay unions in opposition against Rome, in opposition against the church.
[00:50:37]  But it's the exception.
[00:50:40]  It's not the dogma.
[00:50:42]  And you still feel something familiar when you go to a Catholic church.
[00:50:47]  There's still the tradition, there's still the reverence, there's still some, even in the most liberal Novus Ordo churches.
[00:50:54]  There's still some passing resemblance to the Mass and the sacraments that have been around for 2,000 years.
[00:51:01]  And I know a lot of traditional Catholics would say, and they do, they say, oh, no, it's completely different.
[00:51:07]  It could be a lot worse in the context of where the world is.
[00:51:10]  So that is what I actually admire is that it is maybe the most conservative institution in the world at this point.
[00:51:19]  Yeah, that's admirable.
[00:51:21]  So some of my Reformed Protestant buddies and our listeners, that's a At this point, maybe only half of our audience, but still a sizable portion, you know, and talking to them about, you know, doing this project with you.
[00:51:36]  They, you know, were sending me, you know, some of them were like, that's great.
[00:51:39]  I'm glad that you're doing it.
[00:51:40]  And then others were like, that's terrible.
[00:51:41]  How could you?
[00:51:42]  You know, why would you have Nick?
[00:51:44]  And so they're, you know, trying to dissuade me.
[00:51:46]  And so a couple of them sent like a clip of you saying that, you know, that there is no salvation outside of the church, which I've heard that's Catholic rhetoric.
[00:51:54]  It's not novel or anything like that.
[00:51:57]  But there's ways of interpreting, you know, what somebody means when they say that.
[00:52:00]  So, just point blank, I've got you on the air.
[00:52:04]  Do all Protestants go to hell?
[00:52:07]  Well, we don't know.
[00:52:09]  That's really the Catholic answer.
[00:52:11]  And what the Catholic Church reserves is the possibility that non Catholics will go to heaven.
[00:52:17]  And there's actually rules for how this works because the question is always what about someone that's never heard of Catholicism?
[00:52:25]  And for those people that really have never had access to Christ, we say it's really more about conscience.
[00:52:31]  And everyone has the moral law, the natural law written on their heart.
[00:52:35]  Romans 1 and 2.
[00:52:36]  Right.
[00:52:37]  And then there are people where it's a question of did they have the ability to look into Catholicism?
[00:52:43]  Did they sort of refuse it?
[00:52:45]  And so there are accommodations that are made.
[00:52:47]  I refused, Nick.
[00:52:49]  So, well, in your case, you might be going to hell.
[00:52:52]  But in the end, and I'll tell you, this is my position, which is very controversial in the Catholic Church.
[00:53:00]  I tend to the belief that we should hope for a general salvation.
[00:53:07]  Very controversial, you know, this universal salvation.
[00:53:11]  And the Catholic, we're not allowed to say that everyone is saved.
[00:53:14]  Right.
[00:53:15]  We're allowed to hope that everyone is saved, that hell is empty or mostly empty.
[00:53:20]  And so I definitely tend towards a more liberal interpretation, which is that more are saved than not saved.
[00:53:28]  That's actually interesting because that is my view.
[00:53:31]  Now I get there through a different route, but my view is I'm post millennial in my eschatology.
[00:53:37]  So eschatology, just a belief of the end times.
[00:53:40]  I don't believe in a rapture.
[00:53:42]  I'm not a dispensationalist.
[00:53:44]  I'm not premillennial.
[00:53:45]  I'm not all millennial.
[00:53:46]  I'm post millennial.
[00:53:47]  And to put it in a nutshell, The easiest way I could say it is for most premillennial guys, not so much the historic premillennial, but especially Disby, Zionist, and premill guys, they believe that Christ wins.
[00:54:00]  Everybody believes Christ wins, to be fair and steel man the argument.
[00:54:04]  It's not that they believe that Christ loses.
[00:54:06]  They believe he wins, but they believe Christ wins despite a weak, kind of shrinking remnant of a church.
[00:54:13]  That the church will be saved, but saved by the bell.
[00:54:16]  You know, it's like, you know, Jesus, please don't tarry.
[00:54:20]  Come back quickly because everything's going to hell in a handbasket.
[00:54:24]  But we, you know, the few, the proud, the remnant remain, and we can't really do anything, you know, and we're certainly going to lose.
[00:54:32]  But, you know, we're going to, by your grace, you're going to sustain us.
[00:54:36]  We'll make it all 12 rounds and we'll be saved by the bell.
[00:54:39]  And Christ will return and vanquish his enemies and, you know, and save the church.
[00:54:45]  I'm postmillennial, so I believe Christ wins, but rather winning despite a losing church, I believe he wins.
[00:54:52]  Through the church, that the church, the body of Christ here on earth will be progressively and gradually victorious throughout the actual temporal gospel age.
[00:55:01]  Now, that doesn't mean, just like the stock market, right?
[00:55:03]  You look at it over 100 years, it goes up.
[00:55:06]  That doesn't mean it goes up every day, you know?
[00:55:08]  And so I'd say, like, we're in a hell of a dip, you know?
[00:55:10]  Like, I would say, like, we're like a 350 year dip right now.
[00:55:14]  So, like, so, you know, it's like onward, Christian soldier.
[00:55:17]  And right now, you know, the Christian soldiers are getting their butts kicked, you know, like from the Enlightenment, and you could argue even earlier and things like that.
[00:55:24]  Like, we've, we've, um, We've lost some ground, some serious ground.
[00:55:28]  But I do believe, like, I mean, you look at the time of Christ, you look at where we are today, and there's no denying.
[00:55:34]  Were there more disciples when Jesus was walking the earth or today?
[00:55:38]  You know, like, were there, you know, I mean, you look at what God has done, and it's not just that he's saving people, you know, in the life to come in a spiritual heavenly sense, but like, the gospel has gone forth and is shaping the nations, not just saving individual people spiritually, but actually forming civilization and all these developments.
[00:55:55]  I mean, it was Christians, you know, who, who, Innovated and created, and all these different things that Christ gets the glory for that.
[00:56:04]  And so, I actually do believe that not only that Christ wins because he saves a losing church when the bell rings in the final analysis, but that Christ will win as head of the church through his church progressively and gradually with dips along the way throughout history.
[00:56:19]  Actually, throughout history, that the mustard seed will grow into a great tree, you know, that the leaven will actually work through the whole batch of dough.
[00:56:30]  There's so many parables where Jesus.
[00:56:32]  Talks about this, and so, like, even Protestants like Charles Spurgeon.
[00:56:35]  Charles Spurgeon, like, and I've people have called me a heretic for this.
[00:56:38]  I'm like, and people who love Spurgeon, I'm like, I actually was quoting Spurgeon, and they, you know, they have egg on their face.
[00:56:45]  But Spurgeon, um, famously believed that the crowds of heaven would dwarf and utterly eclipse the population of hell, and uh, and he argued it.
[00:56:58]  And it's like, well, how?
[00:56:59]  I mean, there's so many people that don't believe in Jesus, you know.
[00:57:02]  Just look at America.
[00:57:03]  It's like right now, like, really, Joel, you think more people in America today are truly born again Christians than not?
[00:57:09]  And I would never even try to make that case.
[00:57:12]  I think that's pretty, pretty silly.
[00:57:14]  It definitely seems like genuine Christians are a minority, certainly in the West.
[00:57:19]  But he argued Spurgeon, he talked about what about all the babies that died in the womb?
[00:57:24]  What about infants?
[00:57:25]  What about, and then, you know, and then he argued further and saying, like, okay, so right now, maybe hell is more populated than heaven, but let Christ cook.
[00:57:36]  Let him cook.
[00:57:37]  Look at the trajectory.
[00:57:39]  Look at the way Christianity has shaped the world.
[00:57:41]  Look at the way that it's permeated, like leaven, the whole batch of dough.
[00:57:45]  If this is what's happened in 2,000 years, if Christ tarries, right, because I'm not pre male, I don't think he's coming back next Thursday.
[00:57:51]  No man knows the day or the hour, but I think it may be a while.
[00:57:56]  And I think even if it's not, we should have that mentality.
[00:57:58]  Part of the reason that we're going to hell in a handbasket is because Christians with their eschatology thinking that Jesus is going to come back next week, we checked out.
[00:58:06]  We checked out, you know, and it's like, no wonder we're losing.
[00:58:09]  So you should live as though it's going to be a while till Christ returns, whether it is or it's not.
[00:58:14]  And if I had to guess, I think it will be a while because I think that, um, I think that part of what God's doing in this cosmic battle against his arch enemy, Satan, is not just saving the church, but Christ is going to utterly defeat, but not just defeat, but humiliate Satan.
[00:58:31]  Like Colossians even says that through the cross, he held the demonic spirits to open shame.
[00:58:36]  It's not enough to just beat them.
[00:58:38]  Our God is masculine and he's kind of a Chad.
[00:58:43]  Like our God, he doesn't just defeat his enemies, he shames them, he humiliates them, he mops the floor with them.
[00:58:49]  And it'd be one thing for Christ to beat Satan.
[00:58:52]  It's another for him to take puny little guys like us and by the sanctifying power of his spirit over the gospel age through 2,000 years and then maybe 3,000 or 4,000 to actually win the world throughout human history in this temporal age and not just in the 17th dimension and just totally humiliate Satan and humiliate all these false gods that, you know, Islam and Judaism and Hinduism.
[00:59:17]  And it's like, oh no, like the Christian God, not only was he true, Not only was it right, but it was also best.
[00:59:24]  It was best.
[00:59:25]  And so, all that being said, I do think that there will be more in heaven than in hell.
[00:59:31]  But I would argue it through that kind of path.
[00:59:35]  That said, what do you think?
[00:59:39]  I'll give it to you, but what do you think the average Protestant would say?
[00:59:43]  And maybe more particularly, what do you think I would say if you now just reverse the question like, do I think all Catholics are going to hell?
[00:59:51]  Well, I know Protestants really don't like the Catholic Church.
[00:59:55]  So you see us as heretics.
[00:59:56]  So I would imagine you'd think we're going to hell.
[00:59:59]  I see the Pope as a heretic.
[01:00:01]  I see him as not the Antichrist, but an Antichrist.
[01:00:05]  1 John says there are many Antichrists that have gone out into the world.
[01:00:08]  And so, I mean, that's literally in the traditional Reformed confessions.
[01:00:12]  You know, so it's like, it's kind of like part of being Reformed.
[01:00:15]  At the same time, though, I know what time it is.
[01:00:19]  I don't have to be such a purist.
[01:00:23]  That I'm, you know, like just, they're the good autists and then they're the insufferable ones.
[01:00:27]  And I'd like to think I'm not one of the latter.
[01:00:30]  So, yes, I like in keeping with Protestant, you know, historical reform theology, I would affirm that.
[01:00:36]  But I'll say this, I think you'll like this.
[01:00:39]  I do find it suspicious that the reformers of whom I love, Luther, Calvin, you know, these guys, they're taking all these scriptures like Revelation, you know, about synagogues of Satan and the Antichrist.
[01:00:51]  Who is the Antichrist?
[01:00:53]  Like the Bible, the New Testament says, he who denies that Jesus came in the flesh.
[01:00:57]  Catholics don't deny that Jesus came in the flesh.
[01:01:01]  Jews do.
[01:01:02]  Right.
[01:01:02]  Like, why is it that reformers, Protestant reformers, exegeted so many of these scriptures from the Bible to apply to Catholics when the men who wrote them, the apostles, they were applying them to Jews?
[01:01:16]  Right, right.
[01:01:17]  So the apostles, we know who they were talking about.
[01:01:20]  We know their enemy was not the Pope.
[01:01:23]  Their enemy was the Judaizers.
[01:01:25]  It was the Sanhedrin.
[01:01:27]  It's very clear.
[01:01:28]  Like, who's the synagogue of Satan?
[01:01:29]  Hmm, I wonder.
[01:01:30]  No, it's literally a synagogue.
[01:01:32]  That's, you know, like, you know, that's what they meant, you know, and then the reformers are like, No, it was, they knew that, you know, a few centuries later it would actually be, you know, Rome.
[01:01:42]  And so I understand how exegesis works.
[01:01:44]  I think that scripture has one meaning, but can have various applications.
[01:01:49]  And so I don't think the, I'm reformed, so I, you know, shocker, I don't think they were wrong.
[01:01:55]  That said, though, I think that there is still something for timeless truths and timely truths.
[01:02:01]  Right now, in this timely moment, to think that Catholics are, Like the predominant enemy of Protestants, I think it's just retarded.
[01:02:11]  I think it's retarded.
[01:02:12]  You know, it's like, dude, we've got way bigger fish to fry.

=== Religion as a Form of Power (06:35) ===

[01:02:16]  So, all that being said, I do think that Catholicism contains a number of heresies.
[01:02:24]  But I do think it's also important for Protestants and vice versa for Catholics to distinguish.
[01:02:29]  There's a difference in me dogging on Catholicism versus Catholics.
[01:02:35]  Right.
[01:02:35]  Catholics and Catholicism are two different things.
[01:02:38]  I think that the average Catholic here in America.
[01:02:41]  Is actually probably a great Christian.
[01:02:44]  Now, personally, I think it's because the average Catholic is a bad Catholic, which makes for a great Christian.
[01:02:50]  So I love Catholics.
[01:02:52]  But yes, I don't like Catholicism.
[01:02:54]  Yeah.
[01:02:55]  Well, and I would say, I mean, we have a specific admonition, according to the Pope, against what we would call religious indifferentism and this idea that it's a battle against secularism.
[01:03:09]  And what we really need is to rally around religion in general or even Christianity in general.
[01:03:16]  With Protestantism.
[01:03:17]  Like it's very clear from Catholic doctrine, we need to be pro Catholic.
[01:03:23]  We need to be according because we view you guys as heretics.
[01:03:26]  But I would agree with you that in this day and age, is not secularism and nihilism a bigger force?
[01:03:35]  Is that not what actually has our existence?
[01:03:38]  Judaism.
[01:03:39]  I mean, like, and people always say, well, like only 20% of Jews actually are even practicing Jews.
[01:03:45]  Most of them are secular.
[01:03:46]  And I would say, That is Judaism.
[01:03:48]  Right.
[01:03:49]  Yeah.
[01:03:49]  Like, honestly, like, and beyond secularism, to put a little bit more of a fine point, liberalism, I think, is largely a Jewish product, a project.
[01:03:57]  It is like, if I said liberalism, all these different implications, but if it was liberalism was the car, I would say the engine is like the heartbeat of liberalism is egalitarianism.
[01:04:09]  And egalitarianism, I do believe those dots are real easy to connect, that it's the direct result of.
[01:04:17]  Of Judaism that sought to ultimately like dismantle and bring down every form of hierarchy because of this self preserving.
[01:04:25]  And I even get it.
[01:04:27]  I actually get why you would do that.
[01:04:28]  Like, you don't have your own country.
[01:04:30]  You're a minority everywhere you go, you know, and so you're wanting to level the playing field, you know.
[01:04:35]  But I think that like right now, secularism is a big enemy.
[01:04:39]  I think right, you know, the foundation of that is this classical liberalism.
[01:04:44]  And classical liberalism, the engine of that is egalitarianism.
[01:04:48]  And egalitarianism, I'm like, Like, yeah, sure, a lot of white people participated in that, but I'm like, that's kind of Jewish.
[01:04:55]  Well, and why do we have religious pluralism?
[01:04:59]  Who pushed that so hard?
[01:05:02]  It was a lot of Jewish activists because who would be against, let's say, prayer in schools in the 20th century?
[01:05:09]  Who would be against stridently the mixing of church and state?
[01:05:15]  It was the Jews who were not Christians, who did not support that for obvious reasons.
[01:05:20]  That's why they made up the kind of civil rights brigade, ACLU, ADL, these types that said it's actually a form of discrimination.
[01:05:30]  To have any kind of explicit Christian culture, even Christian laws for that matter.
[01:05:36]  So, everywhere you look at where the Christian tradition or religion has been subverted or undermined or thrown off in America, it is typically these Jewish lawyers because they fall outside of that.
[01:05:48]  And the germ of that goes all the way back to Baruch Spinoza in the 16th century.
[01:05:52]  He's the one that introduced biblical criticism and looking at the Bible not even as inspired, but as.
[01:05:59]  Right, as historical and ripping it apart.
[01:06:04]  In leading the radical enlightenment, in this idea that Christianity only serves to bolster the power of the monarchs.
[01:06:11]  And it's almost like a Marxian interpretation of religion as a form of power.
[01:06:17]  So it's been there from the beginning.
[01:06:19]  They've been leading the charge against it.
[01:06:22]  So I totally agree with that.
[01:06:23]  It is fundamentally part, you know, and it's not to say that, of course, Protestants have been very liberal also.
[01:06:31]  And, you know, and secular types have as well.
[01:06:33]  Not all of them, but the majority.
[01:06:36]  Yeah.
[01:06:36]  It is the majority.
[01:06:37]  But it's inherent in Judaism because of the tension between Christian and Jewish civilization.
[01:06:43]  I mean, and it even extends into, I would say, communism.
[01:06:48]  When you look at the organized Jewish community throughout European history, they hate the Catholic Church.
[01:06:56]  They hate the Catholic kings.
[01:06:58]  They hated the Tsar of Russia.
[01:07:01]  And that's because in every place they resided, the Catholic king tried to forcibly convert them or expelled them or burned their Talmud.
[01:07:10]  Or segregated them into the Pale of Settlement.
[01:07:13]  And so, everywhere you find rebellion, like against the Spanish king, the Jews were leading the charge.
[01:07:20]  When you see the invasion of England, the Jews were backing William of Orange because they had been expelled from England for hundreds of years.
[01:07:28]  When you see the communist revolution in Russia, who goes into the Winter Palace and executes the royal family, the Romanovs?
[01:07:36]  It's these Jews that hated the Tsar, Alexander III, Nicholas II.
[01:07:41]  They hate authority.
[01:07:42]  Well, and And they hate authority, but they also hate Christian authority.
[01:07:46]  Yeah, you're right.
[01:07:47]  Because it marginalizes them and frequently abuse them.
[01:07:51]  That's fair, but they sought vengeance against them and undermined it.
[01:07:56]  And so that's present everywhere in liberalism and communism, the Masonic, Illuminist, Enlightenment.
[01:08:03]  It's there every step of the way in opposition to Christian Western civilization.
[01:08:10]  I will say this Protestants, Modern Protestants have been just suckers for Zionism, which sucks.
[01:08:20]  That's an L that I have to wear.
[01:08:24]  But the original protester, you're not a huge fan, I'm sure, but Martin Luther, I mean, the last book he wrote, Jews and Their Lies, hashtag We're So Back.
[01:08:36]  That was pretty, he was so real for that.
[01:08:39]  Any final thoughts on this episode?
[01:08:41]  I would just say, I know that Catholics are going to watch this and they're going to say, You know, Nick didn't go hard enough.
[01:08:49]  He was too nice.
[01:08:50]  It was a hit me.
[01:08:51]  Hit me at the end.

=== Winning Back America Through Unity (02:44) ===

[01:08:52]  I'm down.
[01:08:54]  I was going to say, and vice versa.
[01:08:55]  But my point is to say to Catholics and Protestants and even the Orthodros, anybody, you know, all Christians, for me, if you, like you said, if you believe that Christ was a real person, took flesh, died on the cross, rose again for our salvation, I consider you a brother.
[01:09:16]  I consider you a Christian brother and a friend.
[01:09:18]  And I think we have a lot more in common in the battle than we do, you know.
[01:09:23]  That we disagree on.
[01:09:24]  So, I really believe that we have these disagreements and they're fruitful.
[01:09:28]  And when it's going to be, there's a dialectic, there's a conversation to be had.
[01:09:33]  But I think politically, we really need to unite and be on the same page because all it takes is you visit the DNC and you see the freak show that's going on, or even honestly, the modern GOP when they're doing the call to Wahi Guru and all this Hindu stuff.
[01:09:49]  It's like we really got to stick together.
[01:09:51]  So, I'm really pushing a message of unity.
[01:09:53]  Good.
[01:09:54]  Agreed.
[01:09:55]  All right.
[01:09:55]  Well, thank you for your time.
[01:09:56]  Appreciate it.
[01:09:57]  Yeah.
[01:09:57]  Thanks for having me.
[01:09:58]  For those of you who may not be aware, I have the immense privilege of also serving as president for a sister organization to NXR Studios, which is a nonprofit 501c3 Christian organization called Right Response Ministries.
[01:10:14]  Our focus with this organization is to train and equip pastors and congregants in the Protestant church, primarily the evangelical church, right here in America.
[01:10:27]  What are we trying to train them in?
[01:10:29]  Well, let's just say we're trying to help evangelical Protestant churches in America to stop being so insufferable, to stop being Zionist shills, to be engaged, not apathetic, but activated in the realm of politics and culture.
[01:10:46]  The things that you've been hearing in this series that myself and Nick Fuentes are talking about, we want to see Protestant churches right here in America apply these things to get in the game, to win our country back.
[01:11:00]  We want to see evangelicals and Protestants in America actually be America first, not serving a foreign country at the expense of our own interest, but serving Christ and serving Americans.
[01:11:15]  If you'd like to support us in this mission, we could greatly use your help.
[01:11:20]  You can give a tax deductible donation by simply going to rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.
[01:11:30]  Again, that's rightresponseministries.com.
[01:11:32]  dot com forward slash donate.
[01:11:36]  God bless.