NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Joel Berry vs. The Founding Fathers?
Aired: 2025-09-05
Duration: 01:13:36


=== Resurfacing the Founders Debate (05:56) ===

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[00:00:27]  Are all men really created equal?
[00:00:29]  Should this statement Be the sole foundation and basis for our entire nation, these United States of America.
[00:00:37]  This conversation has been going on for quite some time, but it resurfaced in a profound way, you could say, from a tweet by a known liberal named Joel Berry.
[00:00:47]  Joel Berry tweeted out this He said, The main target of the post liberal right, the new ascendant right, whatever you want to call it, is not against the post war consensus, but rather it's their opposition to this sentence right here.
[00:01:01]  And then he has a screenshot from the Declaration of Independence where he circles the sentence.
[00:01:05]  That all men are created equal.
[00:01:08]  He goes on in his tweet by saying, They think the new ascendant right, they think that the founding of America was poisoned by radical, egalitarian, enlightenment thinking and that it must be completely overturned.
[00:01:20]  Their goal is to impose hierarchies from the top down by the will of a virtuous sovereign.
[00:01:26]  Those hierarchies can be based on blood or birth or religion or whatever else they might cook up.
[00:01:31]  They never quite give details about how all this will work.
[00:01:35]  Skipping down a little bit in his long tweet, he says, You can agree or disagree with the post liberal right, but we have to be honest.
[00:01:44]  This movement is fundamentally opposed to a core tenet of the American founding.
[00:01:49]  It wants a different country than the founders established.
[00:01:53]  This is what we're going to be addressing today in our episode Are All Men Really Created Equal?
[00:01:58]  What did the founders mean by this?
[00:02:01]  Is Jefferson a credible source for the American founding?
[00:02:04]  Should we look to his words above even the words of Scripture?
[00:02:08]  This is our topic for today.
[00:02:10]  Tune in now.
[00:02:20]  All right, we're back.
[00:02:21]  We got the whole gang together.
[00:02:22]  About all men being created equal.
[00:02:24]  Yeah, we've all been out and about doing various things.
[00:02:27]  All three of us are back in the studio now.
[00:02:29]  This is the topic for today.
[00:02:31]  Should this, what did the founders mean when they said all men are created equal?
[00:02:35]  Were they right, but meaning it in a more narrow sense and the way it's been reinterpreted today?
[00:02:41]  Or did they actually mean it in this broad sense and they were simply wrong?
[00:02:46]  This is going to be the topic of discussion.
[00:02:48]  But one of the things that we wanted to use to start off this discussion is.
[00:02:53]  A quote from, show me the guy, it's Jack Rakove, who was a standard historian and a Stanford historian and Pulitzer Prize winner.
[00:03:04]  And he is, just for the record, he's a leftist, he's a liberal.
[00:03:08]  And so this is somebody, even from the liberal side of the aisle, saying, acknowledging that what Jefferson was writing was not intended in the way that it's been interpreted by many in our country today.
[00:03:22]  Here's the quote He says, When Jefferson wrote, All men are created equal, In the preamble to the Declaration, he was not talking about individual equality.
[00:03:31]  What he really meant was that the American colonists, as a people, had the same rights of self government as other peoples, and hence they could declare independence, create new governments, and assume their separate but equal station among other nations.
[00:03:47]  But after the Revolution succeeded, Americans began reading that famous phrase another way.
[00:03:53]  It now became a statement of individual equality that everyone and every member Of a deprived group could claim for himself or herself.
[00:04:04]  With each passing generation, our notion of who that statement covers has expanded.
[00:04:10]  Let's continue.
[00:04:11]  Or is that it?
[00:04:11]  That's the end of it.
[00:04:12]  Okay, that's the end of it.
[00:04:13]  So let's discuss.
[00:04:14]  I think he's right.
[00:04:15]  I think that what the founders had in mind was meant to be more narrowly applied.
[00:04:21]  And at the end of the day, if all men being equal means equal potential, I think Joel Berry, to give him credit, there's this sliding scale of liberalism, there's the left side.
[00:04:32]  Of the aisle and the right side, right?
[00:04:34]  So there's, you know, liberal lefts and liberal rights, and Joel Berry would be on the right side, but he is still a liberal.
[00:04:42]  And so for him, I think he would say, well, equality isn't equity.
[00:04:45]  It's not forced equality of outcome.
[00:04:48]  But I think he would still hold to the idea that equality means at least equal opportunity or equal potential.
[00:04:56]  But if that is the view, in my assessment, if that's the view that we're saying, not even just among Americans, but the whole entire world, every nation on the planet, That every single out of 8.2 billion people, that they all have equal opportunity, that they all have equal potential, then I think as a nation, we are absolutely cooked.
[00:05:17]  That's my opinion.
[00:05:18]  The context here matters so much.
[00:05:19]  There's almost any statement.
[00:05:21]  If you rip it out of the context in which the original author, the original speaker intended to do, you could do terrible things.
[00:05:27]  I think of Jesus even in John when he says, When the resurrection comes, those who have done good will go on to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil onto death.
[00:05:35]  Now, the context is the rest of scripture, the writings of St. Paul, the other things that Jesus has said.
[00:05:40]  You could take it though in isolation and say, see, look, those who do good, those who behave, works righteousness, they go on to life and the rest go on to death.
[00:05:49]  Almost anything.
[00:05:50]  If you take it out of its context, you can do terrible, terrible things.
[00:05:54]  And you have this guy where you're saying, well, Jesus said it.

=== Liberty, Parliament, and Grievances (14:39) ===

[00:05:56]  Well, George Washington said it.
[00:05:58]  Well, Jefferson said it.
[00:05:59]  Surely this is what they meant.
[00:06:00]  But when you zoom in, you say, well, hang on a second.
[00:06:03]  Here's the specific thing they were responding to.
[00:06:05]  If I told my son, you can have a cookie on Tuesday, and he came up to me on Thursday and said, but Dad, you said I could have a cookie.
[00:06:11]  I did say that, but he's using it, actually manipulating it to an end that I don't want him to have.
[00:06:16]  When the American Revolution is going on, when the stirrings of the Declaration of Independence are happening, you have to remember that the French Revolution is in full swing.
[00:06:25]  And so there's certainly some influence going on there.
[00:06:27]  So you have across the pond, you have the French Revolution.
[00:06:30]  And the bent there is towards liberty, equality, and fraternity.
[00:06:34]  It's definitely the worst version of those two revolutions.
[00:06:37]  But what's going on in America is that you're looking at decades where the American colonists have felt that the king has not been.
[00:06:44]  The king that he's supposed to be to them.
[00:06:46]  They have no representation in Parliament.
[00:06:47]  And so, what's happening is Parliament is levying taxes, Parliament's making laws, or sometimes even Parliament will make good laws.
[00:06:54]  And the king is either not letting the laws pass.
[00:06:56]  What he was doing sometimes was adjourning Parliament and adjourning the legislators so they couldn't actually go ahead and enact the rules that the colonists had wanted.
[00:07:04]  And so, for decades, the colonists, very respectfully, had been appealing to King George and saying, King, we are your subjects, we're subjects of the crown.
[00:07:14]  And you over and over and over and over again have deprived us of the rights that we have as British citizens.
[00:07:20]  This is, I mean, you go back to Rome, you go back to Greece, being a citizen has rights to it.
[00:07:25]  Like, what is the point of being a citizen?
[00:07:27]  You could have to go fight and die for your country, you pay taxes, and what do you get out of it?
[00:07:32]  Nothing.
[00:07:33]  There's no point in it.
[00:07:34]  So they're saying, we're subject to the king, we're loyal to the king, and you are not returning to us as Englishmen the rights that we have to be represented in our own government, to make our own laws, to decide how to run our economy, to set our own tax levels.
[00:07:49]  And this builds up and this builds up.
[00:07:50]  And I'm actually going to go not to the Declaration first, but to 1774, the Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress.
[00:07:58]  And I want you to notice the more narrow scope of this before we compare it in a moment to the Declaration of Independence.
[00:08:03]  So, 1774, two years before 1776, the Declaration of Independence, they write this.
[00:08:08]  And this is in the resolves here of this First Continental Congress The inhabitants of the English colonies in North America, by the immutable laws of nature, the principles of the English Constitution, and the several charters or compacts, Have the following rights: life, liberty, and property.
[00:08:24]  You're going to see this phrase show up again, but notice where they're rooting it.
[00:08:27]  Just two years prior, we're Englishmen.
[00:08:30]  We have these rights.
[00:08:31]  Wait, they don't say that the inhabitants of Haiti on the other side of the planet, by immutable laws of nature and the principles of some global government.
[00:08:45]  And like, no, that's not what you're talking about.
[00:08:47]  I don't see it anywhere.
[00:08:48]  Yeah, I feel like this is like at the heart of.
[00:08:51]  Even you talk about originalism in the interpretation of the Constitution.
[00:08:55]  The famous Justice Antonin Scalia often talked about, you know, I think specifically with the First Amendment of the Constitution, where it says, you know, the state shall have no established religion.
[00:09:07]  And the heart of actually interpreting that according to the founders and the way they intended it is going back and looking at the historical context and saying, oh, well, there were actually constitutions at the time, state constitutions, that did enforce a religion.
[00:09:23]  And so clearly, they didn't mean what the modern liberal justice thinks they meant because they didn't say anything about those things.
[00:09:30]  Similarly, if you talk about natural rights and life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, clearly they didn't mean what the modern liberal means when they say that because they lived in a society of hierarchy.
[00:09:44]  You had race based hierarchy, you had male privileged hierarchy, you had property owning men being higher in the society.
[00:09:51]  At the time, only about 3% to 5% of British citizens.
[00:09:55]  Could vote.
[00:09:55]  So over in Britain, there was a form of voting where you voted to four year representatives.
[00:10:00]  Only three to five percent men.
[00:10:01]  They were strict.
[00:10:02]  It depended on the province, but you had to have certain income from like rental lands.
[00:10:05]  You had to be a certain lord.
[00:10:07]  So, no women could vote whatsoever based.
[00:10:10]  But then only about 95% of men also couldn't vote.
[00:10:16]  And none of that was like, and there's a grievance here because there's poor men working the land that don't have the right to vote.
[00:10:22]  Said they never.
[00:10:23]  Right, right.
[00:10:23]  So, and that's a, yeah, exactly.
[00:10:25]  So, that gives us a clue here that they're actually not, it's not a rejection of hierarchy that we're looking at here when they say all men are created equal.
[00:10:33]  They're simply saying that men have equal claims to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
[00:10:38]  But the way that that actually manifests in any given civilization is going to be unequal, actually, because you're going to have more virtuous men, higher moral character, you're going to have different wealth and social status, and all of those things are going to manifest in the society.
[00:10:51]  So, I actually think in my interpretation of all men are created equal, is that it was a very narrow, strict sense.
[00:10:56]  What they were saying was we are rejecting the natural aristocracy of Britain.
[00:11:02]  We actually believe that we, as men, we, as the hierarchy, you could say the higher social status men, Here in the English colonies, we actually find ourselves suitable to govern ourselves.
[00:11:13]  And real quick, flesh that out when you say the natural hierarchy of Great Britain, because we were talking about this before we started recording, you're talking about what's hereditary.
[00:11:22]  Exactly.
[00:11:22]  This idea that nobility is strictly by blood, restrained very, very clearly to certain families.
[00:11:32]  And so you could have somebody else outside of one of these noble families that's actually more intelligent, that's actually more virtuous, all these ways.
[00:11:42]  In every conceivable category, a better Englishman, a better churchman, a better Christian man, but also, strictly speaking, a better Englishman who would actually be more fit for the good of everybody, including the noble families, to have more say in the direction of the country.
[00:12:05]  But he would be excluded from that by virtue of just not being born into one of these hereditary noble families.
[00:12:14]  Families and that that's kind of you have to read history within history within the context, and that's a lot of what they were bucking up against.
[00:12:21]  They were saying, No, no, all men are created equal.
[00:12:24]  We believe that we, you know, call colonialists, colonialists, are we have an equal right to determine the direction of these colonies here in America and what's going on?
[00:12:38]  We're here and we've been placed here by Providence, we're intelligent, we're virtuous, and the idea that we wouldn't have a say.
[00:12:47]  Is we think is is wrong.
[00:12:49]  We think that that's actually immoral.
[00:12:51]  They were not they were not saying, um, and we think that the indigenous, you know, um, Indian tribes, um, also that they should have an equal say.
[00:13:00]  And we think that, um, the black slaves should have an equal say.
[00:13:03]  And we think five year old children should have an equal say.
[00:13:06]  And we think our wives should have an equal say.
[00:13:08]  They weren't saying that.
[00:13:08]  Yeah.
[00:13:09]  That's that's not the context, right?
[00:13:11]  Yeah.
[00:13:11]  I, yeah.
[00:13:11]  And I would say, like, uh, one of the dangers, obviously, of an aristocracy is it that it's ossification.
[00:13:17]  Which is to say that the men with the hereditary, I don't even know if they would necessarily rebuke hereditary nobility, but what had happened in Britain specifically, they thought, was that those people had no longer served the good of the people.
[00:13:33]  Right.
[00:13:33]  And so, and obviously in the declaration, you see all of these grievances they're listing and saying the king didn't do this, the king hasn't done that.
[00:13:41]  27 specific grievances.
[00:13:43]  Right.
[00:13:43]  Like a huge list.
[00:13:44]  Yeah.
[00:13:46]  But then they go on to say after the grievances about toward the king, they then say, And we've even appealed to our fellow British, you know, our colleagues, so to speak, in Britain, referring to the members of parliament.
[00:14:00]  And so you can think about the members of parliament being those being hereditary nobility and saying, Look, look at all of the ways that we are not on equal footing with you.
[00:14:09]  Let me read that section because it's profound.
[00:14:11]  Towards the end of the declaration, they say, Nor have we been wanting in attentions to our British brethren.
[00:14:16]  They call them their brothers.
[00:14:17]  We have warned them from time to time of the attempts by their legislator to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us.
[00:14:24]  We've reminded them of the circumstances of our immigration and settlement here.
[00:14:28]  We've appealed to their native justice and magnanimity and have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred.
[00:14:33]  Like our common kindred, we're of you.
[00:14:35]  We're Englishmen like you.
[00:14:37]  By the ties of our common kindred, to disavow these usurpations, that is, of the king, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence.
[00:14:44]  Profoundly said, we've even appealed to the British common people.
[00:14:47]  Don't you see how the king is treating us?
[00:14:50]  Yep.
[00:14:51]  Yeah.
[00:14:51]  So it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's incredible.
[00:14:53]  But this is why, why it's important to actually go back because you, you see, like a phrase like all men have created equal, this has been reinterpreted from my assessment twice in American history.
[00:15:04]  Once was the civil rights era.
[00:15:05]  Where this was reinterpreted to include racial equality.
[00:15:09]  And then you see that happen again in the early 20th century, so in the early 1900s, with women.
[00:15:15]  And the same phrase again is reinterpreted to say, well, actually, this also extends to women.
[00:15:20]  And so we just have to recognize, and Joel, you've said this before, but in some sense, we are all liberal.
[00:15:26]  Right.
[00:15:26]  Because the way that we've been educated in American history is post these reinterpretations.
[00:15:32]  Right.
[00:15:32]  And so we are clouded if we go back to the Declaration and say, this is what this phrase means.
[00:15:38]  This phrase means when in reality the definitions of the words have changed, and people have, in some ways, it's been done deceitfully.
[00:15:46]  Um, they've been changed, so so we have to go around that.
[00:15:50]  We can't use that lens to interpret, we have to go to the founders in the time, in the place, and realize authorial intent what do they mean exactly?
[00:15:57]  And and realize the thing that we do when we're exegeting scripture, we don't exegete scripture, uh, through the lens of our modern sensibilities, but instead, what we try to do is we, uh, you know, it's even a part of our hermeneutic.
[00:16:09]  I mean, even somebody like John MacArthur would have argued, he said.
[00:16:12]  Would have said, you know, there needs to be a grammatical, historical, literal hermeneutic, right?
[00:16:19]  So he's going to read certain passages in light of how the human author would have intended them, how he would have thought, how the people, the immediate human audience that is going to be receiving these sacred texts, how they would have understood and interpreted them.
[00:16:36]  And, you know, and that's part of the way that we interpret things.
[00:16:39]  That's the way that we understand the intent, the authorial intent, original intent of what's written, is we try to put ourselves.
[00:16:47]  In the shoes of those who were actually writing it and those who would have been reading it, and how that it would have been interpreted by those people at the time.
[00:16:55]  Right.
[00:16:56]  We have some good tweets where we'll hit here in the second segment.
[00:16:58]  It was a really good one, yeah.
[00:16:59]  Yep.
[00:17:00]  But I do want to read actually the whole context that surrounds that phrase, something Joel Berry didn't actually do.
[00:17:04]  He didn't kind of put it in where it kind of fits within the declaration and the preamble.
[00:17:09]  So I'm going to read here the first couple paragraphs of the declaration, and then we'll go ahead and get into our second segment.
[00:17:14]  The unanimous declaration of the 13 United States of America.
[00:17:18]  When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with one another and to assume among the powers of earth.
[00:17:26]  Listen to this, because this is actually the first mention of equality in the Declaration.
[00:17:31]  To assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them.
[00:17:38]  And they say a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires they kind of give their reasons for it.
[00:17:43]  So right off the bat, they're saying we're dissolving these political bands and we're assuming.
[00:17:46]  With Great Britain.
[00:17:47]  With Great Britain.
[00:17:48]  We're assuming the separate and equal stations.
[00:17:50]  That God through nature has established to us.
[00:17:53]  Which again, right there.
[00:17:54]  Which again, right there.
[00:17:56]  We believe that we have the right to be a political, a distinct, separate political body, a nation, a country, just like England does.
[00:18:06]  Yep.
[00:18:06]  And remember, Britain had colonized most of the world at this point.
[00:18:09]  So I don't think if you ask them, and so what you mean with this is every colony that's under British rule, they should do the same thing.
[00:18:15]  Like, we want our separate and equal station, and we want ours, and we want ours.
[00:18:19]  No, they're saying we, particular as Englishmen, we're the ones that are capable of assuming this position.
[00:18:25]  Because we come from the same stock.
[00:18:27]  Exactly.
[00:18:27]  We are Brits.
[00:18:28]  We are Englishmen.
[00:18:29]  And they say, We hold these truths to be self evident.
[00:18:32]  So it's self evident that we're British men, that all men are created equal.
[00:18:37]  I think the best way to frame it, we'll get into the second one, is that all men like us are created equal and that we are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
[00:18:48]  And that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
[00:18:54]  That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to abolish, to alter, or to abolish it.
[00:19:01]  And so this whole preamble is building up again to the grievances, 27 grievances.
[00:19:05]  From King George, but they're saying we're assuming these separate stations and we hold that it's self evident that men like us are equal and have these rights inherently.
[00:19:14]  And that when a government despotically, for decades on end, taxes and usurps, they were taking American citizens that were on trial, they were taking them overseas to stand trial in Britain.
[00:19:26]  So they did a crime here and they were going to charge them and they had to stand in front of a jury of British men, an ocean away.
[00:19:32]  So they're transported for three months across the ocean and it's over and over and over again, all these grievances.
[00:19:37]  And so they say, It is the right of a people when they're capable of self government to take the government that's destructive to their rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and to alter or to abolish it.
[00:19:48]  Not lightly, they say, not lightly, not quickly, because you could get into something worse.
[00:19:52]  But again, when it's men like us capable of self governments, equal, forged by the same Christian religion, I think of John Jay in the Federalist Papers, coming from the same nation, same origin, speaking the same language, worshiping the same God, shaped by the same experience, we have these rights and we're going to take it up.
[00:20:09]  Right.
[00:20:09]  And in addition to that, they also were not naive or entitled.
[00:20:16]  They recognized that to secure this liberty for themselves, it was going to be costly, that they were going to have to fight for it.
[00:20:24]  So they didn't just send the Declaration of Independence as a bluff.
[00:20:29]  They sent it and they were prepared to risk life and limb in order to back it up.
[00:20:33]  They knew that it would very likely be.
[00:20:34]  They pledged their sacred honor, they say.

=== Risking Life for Freedom (05:16) ===

[00:20:36]  Yes.
[00:20:37]  They knew that it would require their very lives, they knew that it would mean war.
[00:20:42]  Their declaration.
[00:20:44]  Of independence was a declaration of war against the crown, and they were aware of this.
[00:20:49]  And so, just to what you read from the Declaration of Independence, just to quote it again that line where it says, That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form as to them shall seem most likely to affect their safety and happiness.
[00:21:16]  I look at that and I think.
[00:21:18]  I mean, even if you want to broadly apply that to every single person on the planet, you know, or all different kinds of peoples and ethnicities and national origins within, you know, our country, the United States, well, then what that would mean is that for citizens within the United States, that they have a right, if they determine that our government, our national government, is destructive towards just ends and moral ends,
[00:21:47]  then it would be their right to alter or abolish that government.
[00:21:53]  And so, I guess what I would say is, okay, well then, in true Texas fashion, come and take it.
[00:21:59]  Go ahead and try.
[00:22:04]  And again, this is a broader reading than what I think the founders intended.
[00:22:08]  But even if you're going to apply it in this broad brush manner, then, okay, then this minority group, Indians or Somalians or whatever who live in America, Ilhan Omar and all of her cronies, you think that.
[00:22:24]  America is unjust and it's unfair and all these things.
[00:22:27]  Great.
[00:22:27]  So then you have the right to do what the colonists did.
[00:22:32]  You have the right to risk life and limb upon your honor to fight the government of the United States and to set up your own little check.
[00:22:41]  To give you reparations or something.
[00:22:42]  Right.
[00:22:43]  Yeah, whatever.
[00:22:45]  So go ahead and do that.
[00:22:48]  Because that's what the founders did.
[00:22:49]  The founders weren't just crybabies.
[00:22:51]  They actually, at the cost of their lives, blood, sweat, and tears, they fought for their freedom.
[00:22:58]  They fought for their freedom.
[00:23:00]  Which is actually an indication that they thought they were suitable to not only fight for their freedom, but to then have their freedom as well.
[00:23:10]  That becomes important.
[00:23:12]  And obviously, like the historian, we have to acknowledge this.
[00:23:14]  The historian is right when they say that our founders were influenced by Enlightenment thinking.
[00:23:19]  Yeah, it's true.
[00:23:20]  Point number one not all of the Enlightenment was bad, but certainly when you read this, you read this idea that the power of government is derived from the consent of the governed.
[00:23:30]  This is social contract theory.
[00:23:32]  This is.
[00:23:33]  This is Locke and Hobbes and these enlightenment thinkers.
[00:23:35]  This is liberalism.
[00:23:36]  Yeah.
[00:23:37]  So, in one sense, it is liberalism.
[00:23:39]  But the important thing to note is that even this itself is built on the bedrock of English common law.
[00:23:47]  So, even this isn't a universal appeal.
[00:23:50]  This is an appeal to say, we live in a civilization, in a society where this can be true.
[00:23:56]  Why?
[00:23:57]  Because the men are of virtue, they're of moral character, they're of intelligence, gifting to be able to govern themselves.
[00:24:04]  That is not true everywhere in the world.
[00:24:06]  And they're Christian.
[00:24:07]  Yep.
[00:24:08]  They're Christian men.
[00:24:09]  They're moral men.
[00:24:10]  Let's close with the quote just because it's a good reminder.
[00:24:12]  This is again someone, Stanford historian, Pulitzer Prize winner.
[00:24:16]  Listen again what he says.
[00:24:17]  We've gone through the Declaration.
[00:24:18]  When Jefferson wrote, All men are created equal in the preamble to the Declaration, he was not talking about individual equality.
[00:24:24]  What he really meant was that the American colonists as a people had the same rights of self governance as other people and hence could declare independence, create new governments, and assume their separate and equal station among the nations.
[00:24:36]  I think he's completely correct.
[00:24:37]  Yep.
[00:24:38]  And that's a liberal.
[00:24:39]  And that, yeah.
[00:24:39]  Yeah, he's acknowledging.
[00:24:40]  He's like, yep, that's the founding.
[00:24:42]  This is the founding.
[00:24:43]  Okay, let's go to our first commercial break and then we're going to come back and read some more tweets.
[00:24:47]  The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king.
[00:24:52]  As Americans, we hate the word king.
[00:24:55]  Civilian ownership of body armor is about helping people to have increased power to resist tyrants and criminals.
[00:25:04]  And so, Armored Republic is about helping you to preserve your God given rights to the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ.
[00:25:11]  Because he is the king of kings and he governs kings and he will judge them.
[00:25:16]  This is Armored Republic, and in a republic, there is no king but Christ.
[00:25:22]  We are free craftsmen, and we are honored to be your armor spread of choice.
[00:25:40]  The silver is mine and the gold is mine, declares the Lord of Hosts.
[00:25:45]  Yet your retirement dollars keep shrinking daily as Washington prints money out of thin air.

=== No King but Christ (13:17) ===

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[00:28:56]  Okay, I want to read a tweet from Christian Hyans.
[00:28:59]  Christian Hyans actually retweeted Joel Berry.
[00:29:03]  And the tweet that we started off the episode with, where Joel Berry is saying, All men are created equal, and that means every single person has at least potential equality.
[00:29:16]  And that's not just every person in our nation, but that's every person in the entire world, right?
[00:29:20]  That's the way that Joel Berry interprets it.
[00:29:22]  And it's not just that Joel Berry is interpreting that way.
[00:29:24]  It'd be one thing, he could have that interpretation.
[00:29:27]  I think it's wrong, but he could have that interpretation.
[00:29:29]  The biggest problem is not the way he interprets it, but it's the intellectual dishonesty.
[00:29:34]  All right.
[00:29:34]  So for him to say, Hey, this is the way I interpret it, and this is the way that others have interpreted it for the past few decades since the Civil Rights Act.
[00:29:42]  And it's a modern interpretation, it's a very novel and very liberal interpretation.
[00:29:48]  And I recognize that I am detouring from the founders.
[00:29:52]  That would be different, right?
[00:29:53]  We'd be like, All right, you know, Joel Berry is admitting, you know, I am a conservative liberal and of a more modern 20th century liberal framework than the founders.
[00:30:05]  But that's not what he's saying.
[00:30:06]  He's imputing that and saying, My very modern interpretation of every single person on the planet being equal is exactly what the founders meant when they talk about equality.
[00:30:17]  So, this is Christian Hyans who's retweeting Joel Berry and countering that idea.
[00:30:21]  Here's the tweet The idea that all men are created equal is so preposterous that it hardly even merits refutation.
[00:30:30]  Every day, with our own two eyes, all of us see how absurd this claim is.
[00:30:35]  Some people are smarter than others.
[00:30:36]  Some are stronger.
[00:30:37]  Others are taller, more beautiful, more athletic, etc.
[00:30:41]  Some people discover the theory of general relativity or Schrodinger equation, while others are incapable of dressing themselves in the morning or tying their own shoes.
[00:30:53]  The founding fathers were categorically wrong when they wrote this line into the Declaration of Independence, and not even they themselves believed it.
[00:31:02]  It's the ultimate embodiment of liberal enlightenment.
[00:31:05]  Thinking that sounds wonderfully elegant and makes you feel good for even uttering it until this claim runs headfirst into the brick wall of reality.
[00:31:16]  Now, with all that being said, I understand why Joel and this is not me, but Joel Berry takes the position that he does.
[00:31:24]  He believes, not without evidence, that it is dangerous to admit that no one among us is created equally, but that danger is not hand waved away simply by asserting something that makes you feel good.
[00:31:39]  While being fundamentally false, parentheses, and which every single person alive understands to be false deep down inside, close parentheses.
[00:31:49]  All right, continuing now, it's a long tweet, almost done.
[00:31:53]  They go on and say the greater danger lies in pretending that we do not already have hierarchies being imposed from above.
[00:32:01]  What do you think we have now?
[00:32:03]  There's an entire ruling class of liberal elite already imposed upon us in every institution you can imagine.
[00:32:11]  Both inside and outside of government.
[00:32:14]  The very thing Joel Berry fears has already come to pass.
[00:32:18]  And this artificial hierarchy crushes dissent far more ruthlessly than kings could ever imagine.
[00:32:25]  Right?
[00:32:25]  The monarch, the king, could only dream of having the degree of power over every private citizen that our elites and oligarchies have in America right now today.
[00:32:35]  Continuing.
[00:32:36]  They also wield far more power, our current liberal elites, far more power than any king could ever wield.
[00:32:43]  These are the same people.
[00:32:45]  Who have the power to tell us that urinals are art, that words are violence while actual violence is the language of the oppressed, that men can become women, and that mutilating children or killing them in the womb constitutes health care.
[00:33:01]  The very tranny, tyranny, tyranny, the very tyranny that Joel Berry keeps worrying about, the post liberal right imposing, has already happened to us.
[00:33:13]  The problem is that this tyranny cloaks itself in the same moralistic language that Joel.
[00:33:18]  Just accepts without any pushback.
[00:33:21]  And so he cannot condemn it as forcefully as he condemns this hypothetical post liberal future without admitting that there is a fatal flaw in his own ideology.
[00:33:32]  All right, that's the tweet.
[00:33:33]  I think it's a banger.
[00:33:34]  I retweeted it.
[00:33:35]  I thought it was really helpful.
[00:33:36]  What do you guys think?
[00:33:39]  Yeah, I really like it.
[00:33:40]  He's kind of espousing a not a third way, but it is a third position.
[00:33:43]  So we've talked about you could take the idea all men are created equal, and on its face, that's preposterous.
[00:33:48]  That would be kind of Joel's view.
[00:33:49]  And we espoused a view where all men are created equal, that is, men like us are equal and capable of self governance.
[00:33:55]  And Carl's got a third way.
[00:33:56]  Speaking of themselves and those who were a part of this group, he and Christian men were capable of self governance.
[00:34:01]  Right.
[00:34:01]  And Christian here is he's articulating a third way.
[00:34:04]  And there is merit to it.
[00:34:05]  Like, we have to be honest.
[00:34:07]  One of the things that makes America incredible, like, different countries have taken our constitution and they've modeled it.
[00:34:11]  I think of Liberia, which was a colony of freed slaves, and none of them have come close to the success that America has had.
[00:34:18]  And so it's tempting sometimes to say, well, what makes America so great are all men are created equal and the freedoms and, you know, the First Amendment of free speech.
[00:34:26]  I actually think in many ways it was the people that have made America great.
[00:34:29]  There's advantages we have as far as waterways, or one, an ocean separates us from people that would attack us.
[00:34:35]  So there's just natural advantages we have.
[00:34:37]  But if we're honest, it's not necessarily the words on paper that have made America what it is, although those help to some degree, but it's been the people.
[00:34:45]  But when the words on paper are actually becoming destructive to the end of the people saying, hey, we want to be free from the tyranny of the oligarchs.
[00:34:53]  We want to be free from globalism.
[00:34:54]  We want a border that's closed.
[00:34:56]  And the words that they themselves didn't even make America great in and of itself in the first place are the opposition, are the barrier to it.
[00:35:03]  They're used, weaponized against us.
[00:35:05]  We can stand up and say, hey, This actually wasn't said the best way, and it's being used against us now.
[00:35:11]  And I think it's honoring to the fathers.
[00:35:13]  We have a commandment to honor our fathers.
[00:35:15]  And if you are an American, George Washington and Jefferson, to a degree, they are men that are owed your respect.
[00:35:21]  They're owed a certain level of deference.
[00:35:23]  But even in that, you can say, and still, I think the way this is articulated here has now been weaponized.
[00:35:28]  They couldn't have seen it then.
[00:35:29]  It's being weaponized in a way we would have never anticipated.
[00:35:32]  And if I was, you know, king for a day and I was to rewrite it, I don't think this is the way I say it.
[00:35:36]  I think that's a totally valid way to approach it.
[00:35:38]  Yeah, I agree.
[00:35:39]  I think there's a sense in which you could recognize that the declaration was actually a political document.
[00:35:44]  So, what happens in politics?
[00:35:46]  There's always a little bit of gamesmanship and saying, hey, I want to appeal.
[00:35:50]  I want to appeal to emotion.
[00:35:51]  I want to appeal to authority.
[00:35:52]  And there's all sorts of fallacies that are used in political sort of campaigns, if you will.
[00:35:58]  And I think that you could at least sympathize with the idea that this is no different.
[00:36:02]  That them saying all men are created equal is actually more or less an emotional thing.
[00:36:05]  What they're saying is, we're equal to you.
[00:36:07]  Exactly.
[00:36:07]  They're not thinking about Somalia 250 years later, they're not thinking about Haiti.
[00:36:13]  All men are created equal.
[00:36:14]  What's the argument?
[00:36:15]  What are they trying to accomplish?
[00:36:17]  They're saying equal to you, Great Britain.
[00:36:20]  We are equal to you.
[00:36:21]  We're just as much fit to govern ourselves as being tyrannically governed by you from the other side of the world.
[00:36:31]  Yep.
[00:36:31]  That's the context.
[00:36:32]  Yeah.
[00:36:34]  So you have one hand the idea that they actually did mean it, but they meant it in this strict, narrow sense.
[00:36:39]  And that's actually the position that I think you just articulated, but I also would probably go there as well.
[00:36:44]  But you also have this other sense in which it's.
[00:36:46]  Completely plausible.
[00:36:47]  They didn't mean it at all.
[00:36:49]  And it was simply them trying to appeal to the populace, to the populace over in Britain to say, hey, look, we have this grand moral vision for humanity and buy in because it does have this allure to it of like all men are created equal.
[00:37:03]  It feels egalitarian.
[00:37:04]  It feels great.
[00:37:06]  And so you can at least say that it's plausible.
[00:37:10]  But again, I go back to this idea that they actually meant it.
[00:37:13]  They were referring to themselves.
[00:37:14]  You can imagine, and I think this is true.
[00:37:17]  Christian Hines actually articulates this this idea of like the post liberal right.
[00:37:20]  Or the dissident right looking at our leaders, our quote unquote elite, and saying, We're better men than them.
[00:37:26]  These men are adulterous men.
[00:37:27]  These men are licentious.
[00:37:28]  These men have no honor.
[00:37:32]  And we look at it and say, we think we could govern ourselves better.
[00:37:35]  We know that to be true.
[00:37:37]  And so we might also have this conception that as we could all gather in a building and we'd speak amongst ourselves and say, look, men, we have an equal right to the claim of power as they do.
[00:37:50]  And in that strict, narrow sense, it would be true.
[00:37:53]  It would be true that we are equal to them in our capability to govern ourselves.
[00:37:58]  As I was listening to the declaration this week, I listened to it a bunch of times on repeat and studying it.
[00:38:02]  I kind of felt the need for like a new one, you know, like for men to say, hey, here's the tyranny you've subjected us to.
[00:38:08]  You've brought foreigners.
[00:38:10]  Like one of the complaints against King George, you've opened us up to foreigners as you've refused to pass laws, refused to protect us.
[00:38:17]  We could easily come up with 27 points that our government, to your point, Antonio, has done the same thing as we as Americans and as men could say, we have decided that this form of government has become destructive to its ends.
[00:38:29]  And we, not lightly, not candidly, we're going to take up and we're going to establish a new form that actually is conducive to them.
[00:38:36]  Yeah, you know, people like James Lindsay or Joel Berry, you know, they use the phrase woke right.
[00:38:42]  And they say, you know, well, this is just the same as, you know, 2017 through 2021, BLM, you know, the woke left and those kinds of things.
[00:38:52]  One of the differences is you look at the founders and going back to what Antonio said just a moment ago, they're saying, no, we actually are fit, we're suited, we're qualified to govern ourselves.
[00:39:03]  And we can do it in such a way that it lends towards the blessing and prosperity of us and our posterity.

=== Woke Left vs. The Founders (15:28) ===

[00:39:10]  Whereas when you think of the woke left, you think of BLM, I think, as a great example.
[00:39:15]  Notice that was never, even though BLM was off the rocker and it completely lost their mind, even in their insanity, right?
[00:39:22]  Even at the fever pitch of woke madness on the left, they never even dreamed of uttering such a thing.
[00:39:29]  They never said, we want to throw off governance and we want to be self governed and take care of ourselves.
[00:39:37]  Never even claimed it, right?
[00:39:39]  Because, right?
[00:39:41]  They know they couldn't, right?
[00:39:42]  Because you can look at the founders, you can look at the colonists, and look at what they accomplished by God's providence, by His grace, but also through hard work and sweat and tears.
[00:39:54]  They had settled a huge landmass, right?
[00:39:59]  There was still much more to be settled, but these colonies had been going on for decades at this point.
[00:40:04]  They had built churches and courthouses and enacted certain laws and legislation.
[00:40:10]  In Congress.
[00:40:10]  Right, in Congress.
[00:40:11]  And they had built civilization.
[00:40:14]  And these are just the facts.
[00:40:15]  I'm not trying to pick on anybody, but you can read the statistics.
[00:40:18]  The average black person takes over the course of their life about $750,000 in government aid.
[00:40:27]  $750,000.
[00:40:28]  And that's net with their taxes.
[00:40:30]  So you take their taxes out of it.
[00:40:31]  So really, they probably take more.
[00:40:33]  It's even more.
[00:40:33]  Your taxes bring it down.
[00:40:34]  That's the total amount.
[00:40:36]  So paying some taxes in and then what they take out.
[00:40:39]  So the amount that they take out and then subtracting what they put in, it's three quarters of a million dollars.
[00:40:45]  That's what it cost our nation.
[00:40:47]  For each black person on average, it cost our nation three quarters of a million dollars.
[00:40:53]  Okay.
[00:40:54]  Hispanics, I believe it's like 560,000.
[00:40:57]  A little bit lower, 530 or something like that.
[00:41:01]  It's about two thirds of what it costs for each black person.
[00:41:05]  So for each Hispanic living in the United States who is a citizen and getting benefits, it costs the nation, the taxpayers, about half a million.
[00:41:17]  For each white person in the United States, it's a net positive.
[00:41:21]  On average, of about a quarter million, about 250,000.
[00:41:24]  So, each white person, and praise God that it's still about 59% majority white, because mathematically, just looking at finances alone, we're done.
[00:41:36]  We already have $35 trillion in debt.
[00:41:38]  You are absolutely done if it ever gets to the point where you have more people in the nation taking three quarters of a million dollars and half a million dollars than the people in the nation who are giving a quarter million dollars, right?
[00:41:51]  That's just the way math works.
[00:41:53]  I mean, Dave Ramsey's, you know, like he would never like to acknowledge what I'm saying, but he would have to admit.
[00:41:58]  Yeah, you would be in big trouble.
[00:42:01]  So, when you think of the woke left, it was never even claimed.
[00:42:06]  We feel like we're ruled by tyrants and we want to throw off that rule and be self governed, right?
[00:42:13]  We have healthy families, fathers who are present in the home.
[00:42:17]  We are tax paying citizens who give far more than we take.
[00:42:21]  We're employed, we're religious, we're moral.
[00:42:25]  No, the demand was you give us three.
[00:42:29]  Quarters of a million dollars per person over their lifetime, and we need reparations and more.
[00:42:36]  We need more.
[00:42:38]  That was the claim.
[00:42:40]  That is not the founder's claim, and that's not the woke right's claim, right?
[00:42:44]  So to say, well, there's woke left and there's woke right, and they're exactly the same, it's the same picture, like that's absolutely ridiculous.
[00:42:52]  It's absolutely ridiculous.
[00:42:54]  That is not what is going on with the ascendant right, the new right, the new Christian right, whatever you want to call it.
[00:43:00]  That is not the claim that's being made today.
[00:43:02]  The claim that's being made today from many on the new right or paleoconservatives or whatever you want to call them, Christian nationalists, the claim that's being made today is we are ruled by tyrants who are stealing from us, stealing from us, oppressing us, and giving it to individuals who are not committed and not invested in our country the way that we are.
[00:43:27]  They're not actually giving back.
[00:43:29]  They're not abiding by the laws of the land.
[00:43:32]  They're not upstanding citizens.
[00:43:35]  And this is wrong.
[00:43:37]  This is theft.
[00:43:38]  This is wrong.
[00:43:39]  It's oppression.
[00:43:40]  It's immoral.
[00:43:41]  It's unjust.
[00:43:42]  That's the claim that's being made today.
[00:43:44]  But I just find that interesting that, you know, you don't see when it's like, well, you know, all men are created equal.
[00:43:52]  And so, you know, so if the founders were able to write the Declaration of Independence and say, you can't rule over us anymore.
[00:44:00]  Notice, like, their claim was not, hey, King George.
[00:44:05]  We need you to send a ship that barely floats because it's loaded to the brim with gold.
[00:44:12]  We, King George, give us stuff.
[00:44:17]  Gold, hallelujah.
[00:44:18]  Give us stuff.
[00:44:18]  Silver.
[00:44:19]  That's not their claim.
[00:44:20]  Their claim is, King George, don't give us anything, but leave us alone.
[00:44:25]  Leave us alone.
[00:44:27]  We can care for ourselves.
[00:44:29]  The woke left, BLM, they would never, even in their insanity, They would never make such a claim because they know, oh, no, we cannot care for ourselves.
[00:44:40]  We are not asking for self governance.
[00:44:43]  We are asking for stuff.
[00:44:44]  Let's be clear.
[00:44:46]  Stuff, please.
[00:44:47]  Stuff.
[00:44:48]  Okay.
[00:44:48]  So, so to like, no, this is not the new right, whatever you want to call it.
[00:44:52]  This is not wokeness.
[00:44:54]  This is not wokeness.
[00:44:55]  This is individuals who are saying, no, we love America.
[00:44:59]  We love the country.
[00:45:01]  We love the founding even of the country.
[00:45:03]  We think there were faults because we're talking about, we're not talking about the word of God.
[00:45:07]  It's not.
[00:45:07]  We're not talking about infallibility.
[00:45:09]  We're talking about good men, but fallible men.
[00:45:11]  We think that they erred in some cases, but mostly when it comes to all men are created equal, I think most of the guys on the new ascendant right would take the position that you, Antonio, are taking and say, I don't think this was actually an L for the founders.
[00:45:24]  I think that the founders meant this in a very particular sense, and it has been misinterpreted by novel, modern liberal people today.
[00:45:34]  I think that's how most of the new right would think.
[00:45:36]  Some would be more of the persuasion of, no, this actually was enlightenment thinking that had crept in already too much.
[00:45:44]  And, but even those guys would say, yeah, but 90% of what the founders did was fantastic.
[00:45:50]  And the fact that they had a few L's, well, I mean, most people throughout history have lots of L's, and they only had a few.
[00:45:56]  So we still salute the founders and appreciate them.
[00:45:59]  But we've had 250 years now to test this theory of all men being created equal.
[00:46:05]  The verdict has come back in, it is on its face false, and we should reject it.
[00:46:11]  I noticed the arc of all the content we produce, Kings Hall.
[00:46:14]  All of it is towards typically self governance, running your home without help from the government.
[00:46:19]  Being a man, it's not, well, you need to get out there and you need to get disability benefits so they can pay your way.
[00:46:24]  No, it's you need to go out there and be your own doctor.
[00:46:26]  You need to be healthy.
[00:46:27]  You need to take care of yourself.
[00:46:28]  You need to learn finance.
[00:46:29]  Like over and over, all of our content.
[00:46:32]  You need to be self sufficient.
[00:46:34]  Like it's not asking for the government.
[00:46:35]  In fact, the one thing we're asking the government to do is to take violent criminals and lock them up, which is the government's actual job.
[00:46:42]  Here's the thing.
[00:46:43]  I think a lot of people on the right, the new right, would say, you know what?
[00:46:46]  We would do that too.
[00:46:48]  If we were allowed to.
[00:46:50]  But here's the reality.
[00:46:51]  The new right, we recognize jurisdictions.
[00:46:53]  God assigned jurisdictions, and we know that the government exclusively has been given the sword.
[00:46:59]  The government has a monopoly on violence, just violence.
[00:47:06]  And so we recognize that no, vigilanteism is actually not biblically permissible.
[00:47:13]  And so the only reason why we ask for anything, the only thing we ask, we don't ask for stuff, we're not asking for money.
[00:47:19]  The only thing that the new right has asked for is for the government to do the one clear job that has been assigned to them by God in Romans 13.
[00:47:29]  To the state, right, to the civil magistrate has been assigned the sword.
[00:47:33]  He's God's servant, God's deacon to enact justice against the evildoers.
[00:47:39]  So that's, you know, that, but that, you're right, that's pretty much it.
[00:47:42]  Is we're saying lock people up who are criminals, defend the borders, and don't let invaders into the country.
[00:47:50]  And those who are here and should not be here, please get them out.
[00:47:56]  Yep.
[00:47:56]  And notice the left, all of their programs, I'll finish with this and give it to you.
[00:47:59]  Maybe, Antonio, you can have the last word.
[00:48:02]  Government paid childcare.
[00:48:04]  Government pays for your childcare.
[00:48:05]  Government healthcare.
[00:48:07]  Government backed loans for housing.
[00:48:09]  So they help out new parents.
[00:48:11]  It's like you said with Black Lives Matter, but even still, I mean, the Somalian that's running for mayor of Minneapolis, he's espousing these grand government programs.
[00:48:20]  He's like, it shouldn't be minimum wage so low and this or that.
[00:48:24]  They see this government that Western Christian men built that has so much excess because it's been so successful, that it's built and grounded on biblical principles and men that worked and it has so much excess.
[00:48:35]  All they can see is not, well, we could make something too like this and it would flourish and do well in Somalia.
[00:48:40]  Nope.
[00:48:41]  Nope.
[00:48:41]  We know they can't.
[00:48:42]  We want the stuff.
[00:48:43]  We want it produced.
[00:48:44]  Give it to us hand over fist.
[00:48:47]  Please be it healthcare, be it childcare, be it health, be it disability, be it welfare.
[00:48:52]  Give us stuff.
[00:48:53]  Right.
[00:48:53]  That's why they're here.
[00:48:54]  That's why Ilhan.
[00:48:55]  Omar married her brother and cheated the system to become a citizen, and now you know is ruling over Americans as a Somalian who doesn't even belong here.
[00:49:03]  Who will marry their own family members to get to America?
[00:49:06]  We're so opulent.
[00:49:07]  That's right.
[00:49:08]  And so, but that's why they're here.
[00:49:12]  If they believe that all men were created equal, they would stay.
[00:49:16]  They know that Somalia does not have the capacity to do what the founders did in this country.
[00:49:24]  They know, and I'm just going to say it because it needs to be said.
[00:49:27]  Somalians know that Somalian people cannot achieve what has been achieved in this country.
[00:49:33]  They know they can't.
[00:49:34]  At least not yet.
[00:49:35]  At least not yet.
[00:49:36]  At least not yet, right?
[00:49:38]  If there was a revival, they all fall in love with God and start like, okay, then maybe centuries from now, right?
[00:49:45]  Let them cook.
[00:49:46]  Let them cook for a little while and try not to use, you know, dung and things like that in the cooking.
[00:49:51]  Like, cook in a Christianly way.
[00:49:53]  Marry outside of your family.
[00:49:54]  Marry.
[00:49:55]  Well, yeah, exactly.
[00:49:56]  That's another thing.
[00:49:56]  People, and it needs to be said, people need to be aware of these things.
[00:49:59]  People say, why do Somalians look so unique, right?
[00:50:02]  When you think of like the Captain Phillips with Tom Cruise, not Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks movie.
[00:50:09]  And you know, that iconic scene where he's like, he looks at Tom Hanks and he's like, I'm the captain now, right?
[00:50:14]  And it's like, dude, this guy looks weird.
[00:50:17]  Like, that's a specific head shape, yeah.
[00:50:19]  Right.
[00:50:20]  And the guy who's running for mayor in what city is it?
[00:50:24]  Minneapolis.
[00:50:25]  Minneapolis.
[00:50:26]  It's like, why do Somalians look so distinct, like very unique?
[00:50:31]  Well, you can look it up.
[00:50:33]  It's because for centuries they have been incestual, it's inbreeding.
[00:50:41]  Centuries and centuries of inbreeding.
[00:50:43]  Well, that's not good.
[00:50:45]  That's not just it's immoral, but the reason why God's not arbitrary, He's not capricious.
[00:50:50]  God doesn't just randomly give us certain morals and precepts.
[00:50:55]  He says this is right and this is wrong because it's not just what brings Him glory, but it's for our benefit, it's for our good.
[00:51:02]  And the reason why inbreeding is not moral is because it's also not beneficial.
[00:51:10]  And so, again, With a country where there's millions of people, we're talking about, again, averages, generalities, per capita.
[00:51:19]  So, yes, you will always have some exceptions.
[00:51:21]  You'll have a few Somalians who are relatively bright.
[00:51:26]  And then those Somalians, instead of fixing their country and saying, hey, all men are created equal, so we're equal, so let's do it here.
[00:51:34]  They know they can't.
[00:51:35]  They know they can't.
[00:51:36]  So, instead, they take their best and their brightest and send them to our country.
[00:51:42]  To manipulate the system and play off of white guilt, because that's a lot of what it is, in order to get stuff and then just all you start importing more, you know, they get a foothold and then import more and more people.
[00:51:53]  And now you go to Minneapolis and you're in Somalia.
[00:51:58]  And it's wicked, it's absolutely wicked.
[00:52:02]  But all men are created equal.
[00:52:05]  If you take this in this very, you know, modern 20th century liberal universal application, Then that's what it lends towards.
[00:52:15]  It's like, well, why do you want to stop the Somalians from coming?
[00:52:20]  They have just as much potential equality as anyone else.
[00:52:28]  And then you have to look at America, because Joel Berry doesn't like Ilhan Omar.
[00:52:33]  Again, Joel Berry is a liberal, but he's a liberal on the right side of the scale instead of the left side.
[00:52:41]  So he would acknowledge Ilhan Omar is terrible.
[00:52:44]  He would acknowledge that.
[00:52:45]  But what he can't say is he can't say, you know what, Somalians can't be here, period, because they're not suited for our country.
[00:52:54]  They're not suited for Western civilization.
[00:52:57]  They're not suited to be a part of a Christian nation.
[00:53:00]  They're not suited to be a part of America.
[00:53:03]  Somalians cannot, in generality, in general, they cannot make the claim that our founders made.
[00:53:10]  They cannot say, hey, we will be self governed.
[00:53:14]  We'll take it from here, King.
[00:53:15]  We've got this.
[00:53:16]  And then build the most prosperous nation that the world has ever seen.
[00:53:20]  And until you are able to say that, say, actually, not all people are created equal.
[00:53:25]  And we're not just rejecting equity, right?
[00:53:28]  Woke left stuff, you know, equality of outcome, but we're rejecting equality wholesale, wholesale.
[00:53:34]  When it comes to the eternal spiritual sense, I believe, as the scripture says, that God does not show favoritism.
[00:53:43]  But the implicit disclaimer for that caveat is there is no favoritism with God, among the elect.
[00:53:52]  So when it comes to Christians, eternally speaking, yes, there is an equality in the sight of God.
[00:53:58]  And when it comes to one nation, assuming that you actually maintain that nation, then yes, I also believe under the law.
[00:54:06]  There should be a sense of equality and not second class, you know, two different or three different classes of citizens where some get, you know, these privileges and these other people are exploited and taken advantage of.
[00:54:17]  So I think under the law, in the temporal sense, within one singular nation, there should be a sense of equality.
[00:54:24]  In the eternal, ultimate spiritual sense among the elect, then yes, I think in the sight of God, there is an eternal, equal sense of dignity and worth and these kinds of things for elect people, Christians, among every tribe, tongue, and nation.

=== Equality in Sight of God (15:27) ===

[00:54:39]  Beyond that, There is no equality, not just equity, equal outcome, but equality, equal potential.
[00:54:45]  It's a myth.
[00:54:46]  It doesn't exist.
[00:54:47]  It's not a thing.
[00:54:49]  There are certain peoples who, again, there will always be exceptions.
[00:54:54]  It's like, well, there's tons of geniuses in India.
[00:54:57]  Yeah, because there's 1.3 billion people in India, right?
[00:55:01]  If you have that many people, then just by the laws of average, there are going to be some of them that are remarkable.
[00:55:08]  But you look at India per capita and compare it to America.
[00:55:12]  It's not the same.
[00:55:14]  You look at Somalia or Haiti and compare it to America.
[00:55:18]  It's not the same.
[00:55:19]  These are not the same people.
[00:55:22]  And we have to be able to acknowledge that.
[00:55:24]  A great deal of the success that God gave in his mercy to America was, I would argue, the main factors are as follows.
[00:55:32]  Number one, providence.
[00:55:34]  Providence is huge.
[00:55:35]  You read the American Puritans, you read the Pilgrims, you read, you know, Cotton Mather and all these different guys, and it's just instance after instance after instance, we're in the bottom of the ninth.
[00:55:45]  God does something that is legitimately miraculous.
[00:55:49]  Miraculous.
[00:55:49]  So, providence, God's mercy, and the people being Christian.
[00:55:55]  Okay, so that's the Christian aspect, God's unique kindness in his providence and the people being committed to Christ.
[00:56:01]  Number two, another factor, and I would put this as second, is the stock of the people themselves.
[00:56:07]  That's what you were saying, Wes.
[00:56:09]  These are unique people, right?
[00:56:12]  The founders are, every single one of them is speaking multiple languages.
[00:56:16]  Fluent in Latin.
[00:56:18]  These are classically trained.
[00:56:19]  Yeah, classically trained.
[00:56:21]  These are not just country bumpkins.
[00:56:23]  These guys are elite.
[00:56:25]  They're incredibly virtuous, intelligent, moral, Christian men who did not come out of the ether.
[00:56:33]  It's like, well, where do you find men like that?
[00:56:35]  Well, you know where you find them?
[00:56:36]  You find them seated at the precipice of a millennia of Christian monarchy.
[00:56:42]  That's where you find them.
[00:56:44]  Like, well, how do you get men like that?
[00:56:46]  You get men like that by having a Christian monarch.
[00:56:49]  For a thousand years.
[00:56:52]  So it's like, I'm all for a republic.
[00:56:54]  I like republics.
[00:56:55]  I think republics are ideal.
[00:56:56]  I'm actually even willing to say, I think it is the most preferable form of government, a constitutional republic.
[00:57:04]  But you know what?
[00:57:05]  You got to earn it, right?
[00:57:06]  Benjamin Franklin said, you know, what did you give us, Mr. Franklin?
[00:57:10]  A republic if you can keep it.
[00:57:11]  We lost it, right?
[00:57:12]  The verdict is back in.
[00:57:14]  We know the outcome.
[00:57:15]  We did not keep it.
[00:57:16]  We lost it.
[00:57:17]  So, how do you get it back?
[00:57:19]  Well, how did we get in the first place?
[00:57:21]  Where'd you get your republic from?
[00:57:23]  Well, we got the republic from a strict rule from a Christian monarch over the course of a thousand years.
[00:57:31]  That's where you find, that's where you groom and shape over 50 subsequent generations.
[00:57:37]  That's how you shape the caliber of people, the stock of people that are actually capable of a republican self governance.
[00:57:45]  And we lost that.
[00:57:47]  How did we lose that?
[00:57:47]  We lost it by apostasy, first and foremost, turning our backs on the Lord Jesus Christ.
[00:57:51]  We took prayer out of schools.
[00:57:53]  We took catechisms out of school.
[00:57:55]  We watered down and lowered the bar of doctrine in our churches and in our seminaries.
[00:57:59]  And we did all these things.
[00:58:00]  Also, though, we let a ton of people into the country that were not from.
[00:58:05]  The founding stock.
[00:58:07]  People who never came from ancestors who were shaped over a thousand years of Christian monarchy.
[00:58:13]  So we literally, quite literally, it's not just that the people compromised, but we actually changed the people.
[00:58:19]  We got a different people.
[00:58:21]  We don't have to say that.
[00:58:21]  A grasp of percent Christian, literally, after Hartzeller in 64, you literally see the decline.
[00:58:26]  Yep.
[00:58:26]  And it's also like it's also white Americans go down and Christianity go down.
[00:58:30]  That's what happened in the 60s.
[00:58:31]  Yep.
[00:58:32]  So I would say providence and mercy of God and Christian people, devotion to Christ.
[00:58:37]  Second, the stock of the people.
[00:58:39]  That is significant.
[00:58:40]  Third, I would also say, and this is providential and God's mercy as well, but the land.
[00:58:46]  The fact that we had a country that was very sparse.
[00:58:51]  And yes, there were people here, indigenous peoples, but very sparse in its population, but very large and very rich in its resources.
[00:59:01]  That is also another huge factor that we have to acknowledge when it comes to the success of America.
[00:59:08]  So you take any one of those elements out of the equation.
[00:59:12]  And think that what has been achieved here could be achieved somewhere else, and you are being absolutely foolish.
[00:59:21]  Do you have a distinctly committed Christian people and God's unique providence that He wants to start a nation with them?
[00:59:29]  Okay, do you have that?
[00:59:30]  Number two, the stock of those people, besides their Christian commitment, are they highly trained, highly intelligent, and highly shaped over a thousand years of Christian monarchy?
[00:59:41]  Right?
[00:59:42]  The stock of the people, the people themselves.
[00:59:43]  Third, did you just discover?
[00:59:46]  A massive landmass with some of the richest resources in the world that is virtually unsettled and ripe for the taking.
[00:59:57]  Okay?
[00:59:58]  If not, if you don't have those three criteria, then guess what?
[01:00:03]  It's not going to work.
[01:00:04]  You're not going to get America.
[01:00:06]  It's not going to happen.
[01:00:07]  It's not going to happen.
[01:00:08]  And I think we have to acknowledge what happened in our nation.
[01:00:12]  Its immense success is miraculous.
[01:00:16]  It is a miraculous moment in history that will not happen again.
[01:00:21]  There is no extra land mass.
[01:00:23]  We've explored all the seas.
[01:00:25]  We've explored the whole face of the planet.
[01:00:28]  There is no hidden place with all these resources.
[01:00:31]  And we currently, on the planet, on planet Earth, we do not have one people anywhere, whether it be in Europe or Asia or South America.
[01:00:42]  We do not have any people currently, any nation of people of the caliber of the people of England at the time of America's founding.
[01:00:50]  We don't have those people.
[01:00:53]  Point to me the country that has that level of first and foremost commitment to Christ.
[01:00:58]  They are a Christian people.
[01:01:00]  Secondly, that level of learnedness and intelligence and a people that have that caliber and heritage of history.
[01:01:11]  That there are people that have been groomed for a millennia of Christian thinking from King Alfred and even before Constantine.
[01:01:19]  We don't have it.
[01:01:20]  And so, the only chance we even have, and in many ways, I'll just admit that, like, We're cooked.
[01:01:28]  America is cooked.
[01:01:30]  The only chance that we have is not doing it again.
[01:01:34]  You don't just do America, that doesn't just grow on trees.
[01:01:37]  The only chance that we even have of any improvement at all is to try to recapture it.
[01:01:43]  We can't start over.
[01:01:45]  We can't go and do it again somewhere else.
[01:01:47]  It's recapturing.
[01:01:48]  And what does that involve?
[01:01:49]  I think number one, it involves revival and national repentance.
[01:01:54]  Number two, it involves getting all the people out of the country that are not American.
[01:02:01]  That are not American.
[01:02:02]  You got to get back to what are the three criteria that made America successful in the first place God's providence, His mercy towards us, our commitment towards Him and a particular people of high caliber and high stock, and the incredible land, right?
[01:02:19]  The geographic, natural resources that made us so abundantly blessed and wealthy.
[01:02:25]  We have the land still.
[01:02:27]  We don't have the people and we don't have the commitment to God.
[01:02:31]  And because we don't have the commitment, To God, I don't think that we have His particular blessing like the founders did.
[01:02:37]  I think they were, God was committed to them.
[01:02:40]  I don't believe that God is blessing America in the way that He was blessing America once upon a time because we are not committed to God.
[01:02:46]  America doesn't bless God, right?
[01:02:48]  God's not blessing America in the way that He once was because America refuses to bless God.
[01:02:52]  So we need national repentance.
[01:02:54]  We need to renew our covenant to the Lord, turn from our apostasy.
[01:03:01]  We still have the land, but then we need to get rid of a ton of people.
[01:03:07]  Ilhan Omar has to go back.
[01:03:09]  The Somalians have to go back.
[01:03:11]  The Haitians have to go back.
[01:03:13]  Nigerians have to go back.
[01:03:14]  A ton of people, you know, Ecuadorians and people from South America have to go back.
[01:03:20]  They have to go back.
[01:03:21]  We need to start back over with, I believe, heritage Americans, with those who actually were a part of this American project from the beginning.
[01:03:32]  Or at least, you know, maybe not the very beginning, but at least.
[01:03:37]  Going back before the Hart Seller Act, before the Civil Rights Act, going back at least, I would say, 50, 60, 70, 80 years.
[01:03:46]  If we're not willing to do that, and everybody will say that's extreme, this is a moderate position.
[01:03:51]  It really is.
[01:03:53]  If you're not willing to do that, right, full moratorium on immigration, net zero immigration, and deporting, I would argue, anywhere from 60 to 100 million people.
[01:04:04]  And then the rest who are left, national repentance, I'm talking the president comes out.
[01:04:09]  Right?
[01:04:10]  Like Nineveh, the king comes out, he comes out in sackcloth and ashes and declares a three day fast for the entire people.
[01:04:17]  We are turning to the Lord and we're ripping out of the Declaration of Independence.
[01:04:22]  All men are created equal.
[01:04:24]  And we're putting in there an explicit devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ.
[01:04:28]  We're going to name him in the Constitution, name him in the Declaration of Independence.
[01:04:34]  If you're not that serious, then you just need to be honest and say, yeah, America's done.
[01:04:39]  And I want it to be done.
[01:04:41]  I don't want to save America.
[01:04:43]  I don't, and I'm perfectly content with my descendants, my children's children, being replaced, raped, killed, exploited.
[01:04:57]  And so, for me, as a pastor, as a Christian, and as a father, a husband and a father, I'm not okay with that.
[01:05:04]  And I am willing to be persecuted, I'm willing to be hated, I'm willing to be slandered if it means standing up for my future grandchildren.
[01:05:13]  I love my grandchildren.
[01:05:15]  More than I care about what right wing watch thinks about me, and honestly, right wing watch is actually pretty fair.
[01:05:25]  Um, I appreciate right wing watch, right?
[01:05:27]  They don't deceitfully clip you out of context, so I should say I care more about my future grandchildren than I care about Christians, um, because they're actually the worst, they're actually the cruelest in their criticisms and their deceitful ways of twisting things.
[01:05:42]  So, that's what it takes it takes recommitting to Christ so that God might commit to blessing us again, and it takes getting back to.
[01:05:50]  Heritage Americans, which means that a lot of people who have shown up in the last 15 minutes, they actually have to go back.
[01:05:59]  They don't have to be hated.
[01:06:02]  They don't have to be exploited.
[01:06:04]  They don't have to be harmed.
[01:06:05]  They don't have to be hurt, but they do have to leave.
[01:06:08]  They have to leave.
[01:06:10]  And then we need to crack down on crime.
[01:06:12]  We need to get rid of the welfare state where we're stealing from one group of people and giving a quarter, or I'm sorry, three quarters of a million dollars over the lifetime.
[01:06:23]  Of another group of people, these are the things that we need to do.
[01:06:28]  And until we're ready to even talk about these things, then we just need to admit.
[01:06:33]  If we're not willing to even talk about these things, or we're just going to lie and slander anyone who does talk about these things, then you just need to be honest and come out and say, I hate my country.
[01:06:45]  I hate America.
[01:06:46]  And I want it to be destroyed.
[01:06:48]  I'm actually, my highest commitment is not to Christ and it's not to Christianity, it is to liberalism.
[01:06:55]  Before anything, Before anything Christian, my first and highest commitment is to liberalism.
[01:07:05]  And I will die on that hill.
[01:07:08]  And I think that would be intellectual honesty.
[01:07:10]  And I would appreciate that.
[01:07:13]  And so I think we just need to say that, you know, and just say we are content with the last remnants of blessing in America dying with us and getting that.
[01:07:24]  Because at the end of the day, what's most important to us is laying on our beds at night.
[01:07:30]  And going to sleep with a clear conscience because we don't think we're racist.
[01:07:36]  I think that's where we're at right now as a country.
[01:07:37]  I don't know if we're going to win this battle, but I am hopeful in the sense that I think a lot of young people actually want to fight this fight.
[01:07:47]  I think there's a lot of Gen Z that they're starting to wake up and they actually want to fight the fight.
[01:07:52]  I don't know.
[01:07:53]  What do you guys think?
[01:07:54]  No, I think that's really helpful.
[01:07:55]  I think one of the big takeaways from what you just articulated is that it's not really helpful to appeal to the founders in this place in time.
[01:08:03]  Because the context that they were in doesn't exist anymore.
[01:08:06]  It doesn't exist.
[01:08:07]  And so I think that's a, it's grave to have to say that, but I think that's just something we have to recognize.
[01:08:11]  I think Gen Z, of course, recognizes that because they've never really grown up in a time where that ever did exist.
[01:08:17]  But one other thing that I realized as you were talking is like, so you have the post liberal right, but I actually think you also have the post liberal left.
[01:08:25]  And I think the only true liberals that exist anymore are on the right.
[01:08:29]  They're the neocons, the people who have some of the views that Joel Berry here is articulating.
[01:08:35]  Which is this appeal to the civil rights and this appeal to limited government?
[01:08:39]  I don't think anyone really believes that anymore on either side of the aisle in terms of the mainstream because it's so preposterous to believe that.
[01:08:48]  The idea that the government could be the same government that the founders articulated.
[01:08:51]  It only levies taxes, it only enforces trade.
[01:08:54]  I mean, that's not what the government we have anymore.
[01:08:57]  The government's spending hundreds of billions of dollars, trillions of trillions of dollars of deficit every year.
[01:09:04]  It's just not a limited government.
[01:09:06]  A trillion dollars every 100 days.
[01:09:08]  Is that what it is?
[01:09:09]  Added to the debt.
[01:09:10]  It's spending more.
[01:09:11]  Yeah.
[01:09:12]  Yeah, so it's just like the idea.
[01:09:15]  It's true.
[01:09:15]  Our founders did articulate a liberal view, or you could call it a classically liberal view, of a limited government.
[01:09:21]  The government does one of five things.
[01:09:23]  You see that articulated in the preamble of the Constitution.
[01:09:26]  And they did emphasize civil rights.
[01:09:27]  Now, it wasn't the flattened civil rights that we have today, where it's like civil rights for all people, but they did have a strong belief and articulation of the virtuous citizens' relationship to the government.
[01:09:40]  But now, obviously, the liberal today says, well, that's actually flattened.
[01:09:44]  Everyone has that same relationship, it's equal.
[01:09:46]  In all ways, all people are equal in all ways.
[01:09:49]  So that's their view of the civil rights, which is actually a perverted view of what the founders thought.
[01:09:52]  But they still hold on to this idea of limited government.
[01:09:55]  And so, if the government just left me alone, everything would be fine.
[01:09:59]  That would fix all of America's issues.
[01:10:00]  It's nothing more than just a big government.
[01:10:02]  And we're spending too much money.
[01:10:03]  And of course, that's idiotic and incredibly out of touch.

=== Virtue and Small Government (02:51) ===

[01:10:06]  And so we have to call that out.
[01:10:08]  But going back to your point, obviously, we as Christians, we still hold this idea of self governance, right?
[01:10:14]  And so you pointed out King's Hall.
[01:10:16]  And there's a sense in which it's true that.
[01:10:18]  Privately, we ought to be governing ourselves well.
[01:10:21]  But we all recognize here, I think, on the post-liberal right, if that's what you want to call us, that a small government's not going to get it done.
[01:10:27]  It's not.
[01:10:28]  Yep.
[01:10:28]  Small government, you know, that's kind of the common trope of, you know, neoconservatism and typical fashion.
[01:10:37]  You know, like if you'd asked me as a young adult, what do I think, I would have said the same thing.
[01:10:41]  I would have said, you know, small government, good.
[01:10:44]  Big government, bad.
[01:10:45]  And that would be the long and short of it.
[01:10:48]  That's about as far as my thought process went.
[01:10:52]  Which is incredibly naive.
[01:10:55]  What I didn't realize is the reason why small government was so good in America's founding is because a large government was not required.
[01:11:07]  You did not have, in our founding, you did not have just where 20% of the population were thieves and murderers and rapists, right?
[01:11:19]  You didn't have that, you know, and you also didn't have where a large swath of the population.
[01:11:25]  Was on welfare and requiring government aid.
[01:11:30]  And even the better part of our population is still far less virtuous.
[01:11:33]  We have to admit that gambling and pornography than the previous generation.
[01:11:39]  Less virtuous.
[01:11:40]  And then I would say, especially, right?
[01:11:42]  Because you can find some people, God fearing, salt of the earth Christians, who I think are as virtuous as many of the founders and even more virtuous in terms of their Christian commitment, their morality, than some.
[01:11:55]  Of the founders, looking at you, Benjamin Franklin, looking at you, Thomas Jefferson, right?
[01:12:00]  I mean, because we do have some people who are like, no, this guy, morally speaking, is actually superior to Thomas Jefferson because Thomas Jefferson sucked, right?
[01:12:09]  I mean, like, he ripped out verses of the Bible.
[01:12:13]  Benjamin Franklin was a bit of a hoe, you know?
[01:12:16]  So, like, we've got people better than them.
[01:12:19]  Here's what we don't have, though we don't have people smarter than them.
[01:12:23]  We don't.
[01:12:24]  We might have some of our population with a higher commitment to virtue.
[01:12:29]  But we don't have hardly any of our nation that is uniquely trained and equipped and academic and intelligent and is broadly well read and all these things that the founders were.
[01:12:41]  And so we just have to acknowledge we are starting at a massive deficit.
[01:12:47]  And with the lay of the land as it currently is today, you don't get out of this hole if you're not willing to do some things that are going to be viewed as extreme.

=== Are They Objectively Extreme (00:39) ===

[01:12:57]  I personally don't think they are objectively extreme, but they will be called extreme.
[01:13:01]  All right, that's the episode.
[01:13:03]  We got to call it quits.
[01:13:05]  I hope that you've been blessed by it.
[01:13:06]  And it is Friday, and we will see you.
[01:13:10]  I believe we have just a couple episodes left of the Friday special, which is at 8 p.m. Central.
[01:13:15]  So that'll be tonight, 8 p.m. Central, with myself and Dr. Stephen Wolf talking about Christian nationalism, how to get the train, American train, back on the rails.
[01:13:23]  And then other than the Friday special, we will see you again with the live stream on Monday.
[01:13:27]  We live stream three times a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 3 p.m. Central time.
[01:13:31]  So Lord willing, we'll see you on Monday.
[01:13:33]  God bless.
[01:13:36]  I'm sorry.