NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Digital Necromancy: AI and the Resurrection
Aired: 2025-08-27
Duration: 52:31


=== Simulating Loved Ones (15:09) ===

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[00:00:21]  We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.
[00:00:27]  What if technology reached the point where you could take pictures from perhaps a grandparent who's passed away?
[00:00:34]  Or a long lost friend and bring them back to life, so to speak, digitally.
[00:00:40]  What if you could animate your lost loved ones, having conversations, seeing them in video, perhaps even as a hologram so that it looks like real life?
[00:00:50]  What would the Christian position be on this topic?
[00:00:54]  Well, this isn't a hypothetical.
[00:00:56]  This isn't merely a sci fi question for 20 or 30 or 50 years from now.
[00:01:03]  This is something that is actually happening.
[00:01:05]  Today, Christians need to have a position theologically rooted in the scripture for what we think about this.
[00:01:13]  Is this a practice that God deems as being permissible, or is this something that the Bible strictly condemns?
[00:01:22]  We're talking today about digital necromancy and the resurrection.
[00:01:27]  Tune in now.
[00:01:36]  First of all, I think it's foundational before this episode.
[00:01:39]  Are we convinced demons are not hiding within, deep within the recesses of AI, to be honest?
[00:01:44]  No, we are not convinced.
[00:01:45]  I'm not convinced at all.
[00:01:46]  There's not something spiritual about them.
[00:01:49]  And that's kind of, I think, getting into the topic.
[00:01:52]  So you have the idea, and this is an old idea necromancy, bringing the dead to life.
[00:01:57]  I mean, from the earliest days, I think man has been obsessed with can we bring somebody back?
[00:02:02]  We bring back the likeness, we bring back their spirit.
[00:02:04]  Can we commune with them?
[00:02:05]  It's just a quest for immortality.
[00:02:06]  I mean, you think of like the fountain of youth, you know, like that's always been.
[00:02:11]  An aim of mankind.
[00:02:13]  And it's because, I mean, even the scripture says God has set eternity into the hearts of men or the mind of man.
[00:02:20]  So man is, I mean, you think of every creature on the planet, every animal, mankind is the only creature, earthly created being, that is conscious of his own death, his own mortality.
[00:02:33]  Yeah.
[00:02:34]  And so the question kind of is it's funny, man, like in his hubris, he builds a Tower of Babel.
[00:02:40]  He's like, all right, so we're kind of limited.
[00:02:43]  But hang on, what if with technology we could gather everyone together?
[00:02:46]  We don't have to be dispersed.
[00:02:48]  We could build and ascend the heavens and basically have no need for God.
[00:02:50]  So we've done it before with technology, but I would certainly say for a while, at least at some level, we put the kibosh on the idea.
[00:02:56]  It's, you know what, man is dead, at least certainly in Christendom.
[00:03:00]  Any type of witchcraft, those things are pretty well banned.
[00:03:02]  They weren't common practices.
[00:03:03]  And it's this idea of reaching across to the dead, accessing them, interfacing with them.
[00:03:08]  I would have to say it's been pretty dead and buried for about 1,000 to 2,000 years.
[00:03:12]  But man's hubris knows no end, and we're to the point where.
[00:03:15]  It's not at all unthinkable that you could commune with them in a certain way.
[00:03:19]  So, right now, for example, this wouldn't even take money.
[00:03:22]  This wouldn't even take me knowing a ton of engineering.
[00:03:25]  Say, for example, and heaven forbid, my dad passed away.
[00:03:28]  I could take everything I knew about him and I could take every text I had from him, for example, and I could feed them into some type of large language model.
[00:03:35]  And I could ask it, text me once a week to use the tone, use the format, use the knowledge that my dad has, acting as if you're my dad, to check in, to ask how I'm doing.
[00:03:47]  My dad passes away.
[00:03:48]  I feed his likeness.
[00:03:49]  I feed pieces of data I have on him, pictures, videos, memories, texts, things that he's written.
[00:03:56]  I feed them in and say, I want you to simulate a likeness.
[00:04:00]  And then it would come back to me every week or whatever time I set it to and say, How are you doing?
[00:04:05]  Just checking in.
[00:04:06]  Here's something that I read.
[00:04:08]  That's a reality right now.
[00:04:10]  And what's specifically being pushed, and Elon Musk is making a big deal out of this with Grok and Imagine, is you can take any photo.
[00:04:17]  And you can go in and animate it.
[00:04:18]  So, think of someone that maybe lost their mom decades ago.
[00:04:21]  They don't have a video of her.
[00:04:22]  They don't even maybe have a memory of her, but they have pictures.
[00:04:26]  They could go in and they can take the picture and animate and, in a very real but not real sense, bring her to life.
[00:04:35]  And I really don't know if I have a better term to call it than necromancy raising, in a sense, the dead that you're taking the dead who have passed on.
[00:04:43]  God gave them years, He gave them 20 years, He gave them 40 years, He gave them 60 years.
[00:04:48]  And those years have come and they've gone, they've done their work.
[00:04:51]  And Ecclesiastes even speaks to this.
[00:04:52]  We'll get it in a moment.
[00:04:54]  But you say, but what if they kept going a little bit?
[00:04:58]  What if there's a little bit more that they had to offer?
[00:05:00]  Listen to this from Ecclesiastes.
[00:05:02]  Ecclesiastes, just for context, remember it's Solomon kind of bemoaning life.
[00:05:07]  Man, life is so short.
[00:05:09]  Man's days are so short.
[00:05:10]  He's lamenting mortality.
[00:05:11]  Yep, he's lamenting mortality.
[00:05:13]  And listen to what he says about the dead.
[00:05:14]  This is Ecclesiastes 9, 5 through 6.
[00:05:17]  For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more reward.
[00:05:23]  For the memory of them is forgotten.
[00:05:25]  And also their love and their hatred and their envy is now perished.
[00:05:29]  Neither have they, that is the dead, neither have the dead any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
[00:05:37]  Right.
[00:05:38]  And humanity and mankind especially said, but did God really mean that?
[00:05:43]  Right.
[00:05:43]  What do you think, Solomon?
[00:05:44]  Are you sure about that?
[00:05:45]  That's kind of what seems to be going on here.
[00:05:47]  Yeah.
[00:05:48]  Do you have a video for us?
[00:05:50]  Aren't you going to demonstrate some of what's going on?
[00:05:53]  Yeah, let's do it.
[00:05:54]  Let's show.
[00:05:54]  This is a video from a startup called Rebemory.
[00:05:57]  Take a look.
[00:06:10]  So my, what are you, my, me?
[00:06:19]  I'm going to go to the house.
[00:06:28]  I'm going to go to the house.
[00:06:50]  All right.
[00:06:52]  Man made horrors beyond comprehension, wouldn't you say?
[00:06:56]  Yeah, that's pretty strange.
[00:06:59]  And I understand.
[00:06:59]  I mean, I'm sympathetic to people who have lost loved ones and rationalize it in their mind.
[00:07:05]  They're like, because I think that the average person would say, I know it's not them.
[00:07:10]  I know that to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord for those who are in Christ.
[00:07:16]  For those who are not in Christ, then the soul, the spirit is now.
[00:07:21]  In hell.
[00:07:21]  So I know this is not my loved one.
[00:07:23]  I know that I'm not actually, in the literal sense, engaging with them or talking with them.
[00:07:28]  But then you watch a video like that, and that woman, you could even tell like she's getting cut off by the AI simulation because she instinctively immediately begins to talk to this man as though it really is him.
[00:07:47]  So she's trying to conversate, where, you know, from that short clip that we just watched, it seems as though.
[00:07:54]  The words were already programmed in.
[00:07:56]  So it's not at that level yet where it's able to hear her voice and then respond based off of what she just said and actually hold a conversation.
[00:08:07]  It seems like it's pre programmed, like pre recorded in his voice, in his image, but to say something that's already been synced up.
[00:08:15]  But my point is that from that short clip, that's not her reaction.
[00:08:22]  Her reaction is.
[00:08:24]  She doesn't look like someone who is perfectly aware that this is strictly artificial intelligence with a pre recorded message and that she's going to sit and look and appreciate and listen.
[00:08:36]  She starts talking to him and trying to hold a conversation.
[00:08:40]  And so, my point is that, and I don't think that this woman is, I'm not saying that she's unintelligent.
[00:08:48]  She looks like a normal woman.
[00:08:51]  And so, I don't think that she's dumb or stupid.
[00:08:55]  I think that it's the natural.
[00:08:57]  Instinctive reflex.
[00:08:59]  She's like, I see someone that I love.
[00:09:03]  I can see them and hear them.
[00:09:05]  They're speaking to me, and I immediately are engaging with them, even though she probably went into that scenario knowing rationally, this is not him.
[00:09:17]  This is artificial.
[00:09:20]  But as soon as it starts, she begins to try to engage with this hologram as though it actually is.
[00:09:29]  The person, and I'm not trying to judge her for that.
[00:09:32]  I'm thinking of even myself.
[00:09:33]  What would my response be?
[00:09:35]  How would I?
[00:09:36]  I think I would probably have somewhat of a similar response.
[00:09:40]  I wouldn't, I don't think I would be able to hold the rationale when the moment actually happened the rationale that this is artificial intelligence, that that's not actually them.
[00:09:52]  If it's a lost loved one who was a Christian, that they're actually with the Lord, their soul is with the Lord, their body is buried six feet under.
[00:10:00]  This is simply artificial intelligence.
[00:10:02]  I don't know if I would be able to do that because we're not just rational creatures.
[00:10:07]  We are deeply and profoundly emotional creatures.
[00:10:11]  God made us in that way.
[00:10:12]  And so it's like it's tempting yourself to go against your better judgment.
[00:10:21]  And not just your better judgment, but more importantly, it's enticing yourself, even if just for a moment, to disregard reality.
[00:10:31]  And what scripture says about humanity and about death.
[00:10:38]  I don't want to tempt myself to do that.
[00:10:40]  Like, I know that, you know, you're not actually conjuring the person, it's not actually their spirit, it's all of it is simulated.
[00:10:48]  And so, in that sense, I understand for those who might play the devil's advocate and push back, it's not what the Witch of Endor did in the case of conjuring up Samuel's spirit.
[00:11:00]  I really believe that that was Samuel who came up from the ground.
[00:11:04]  That's why the Witch of Endor, when Saul seeks her out, that's why as soon as she sees Samuel's spirit rising from the ground, she's terrified.
[00:11:13]  This is somebody who practiced dark arts and magic on a frequent and regular basis.
[00:11:20]  And even she's surprised because.
[00:11:22]  She probably did a lot of her work through trickery, through smokes and mirror and sleight of hand.
[00:11:29]  And the reason why I think this witch is particularly startled in the Old Testament is because it worked.
[00:11:38]  And so I recognize that what we're talking about is not that.
[00:11:41]  It's not that it actually works, it's not actually the spirit of your loved one coming up.
[00:11:47]  You know, in the case of Samuel, the reason why he came up is it's Old Testament, it's before the finished work of Christ.
[00:11:51]  And so.
[00:11:52]  His spirit was in Sheol, which I believe, as the scripture teaches, is in the belly of the earth.
[00:11:59]  So he doesn't come down from heaven, but rather comes up.
[00:12:02]  In this case, if it was a loved one who's passed as a Christian, I believe it would be coming down if it was real.
[00:12:09]  But I don't think that'll ever happen because I don't think God will allow that to happen.
[00:12:15]  But my point is, even though that's not what's happening, it's not literal, it's not actually their spirit, the person's reaction is, it seems as though the person.
[00:12:26]  Is immediately and strongly enticed to react as though it were real.
[00:12:31]  And even that mere reaction is a rebellion and a disregarding, even if just for a moment, of what God's word says is true.
[00:12:41]  You are taking the scripture and putting it aside, and maybe instinctively, maybe not even consciously, but just in a natural, almost primal way, this emotive way that you can't hardly even control.
[00:12:59]  But why would you then subject yourself to a moment, even if just a brief moment?
[00:13:05]  Why would a Christian willingly, voluntarily subject themselves to a moment where they will be immensely tempted emotionally to disregard the truth of Scripture?
[00:13:17]  That would be my question.
[00:13:18]  That's how I would frame it.
[00:13:20]  I want to get to the verses here in a minute because this is one of the topics where the Bible actually does speak to it.
[00:13:24]  But there are categories of things that are so tempting.
[00:13:26]  You're literally told not even to, like, you know, kind of be around.
[00:13:29]  You can be in proximity, like, ah, some friends are lying and I'm not going to take part in it.
[00:13:33]  There's some sins, I think, specifically of sexual immorality.
[00:13:35]  Paul specifically says you have to flee that one.
[00:13:38]  It's so tempting and it's so powerful.
[00:13:39]  And it's not even because sex in and of itself is bad, but the misuse of it can be so powerful and so tantalizing that, hey, Timothy, hey, Corinthians, you are to flee youthful lust.
[00:13:50]  Get the heck out of Dodge.
[00:13:51]  This isn't something that you can be in proximity around.
[00:13:54]  And he specifically categorizes it with different other sins.
[00:13:56]  Like there's sins that are not against the body, the way sexual immorality is.
[00:14:00]  I think the same way with this, you could say, well, it's literally a picture of my mom hugging me from when I was young.
[00:14:06]  What could be the use?
[00:14:07]  And just remembering one last time, it's a slippery slope that there's some things that are so against nature, so against reality, so against God's word that it's like, even it seems small, but there's so many sins that seem small.
[00:14:20]  Even in starting it, you could tend yourself down and all of a sudden you go, wait a second, I never counted on being this far.
[00:14:26]  I didn't count on spending, and people do this hundreds and hundreds of dollars on a digital simulated presence that's not even there.
[00:14:32]  Exactly.
[00:14:33]  Like, look at that woman's reaction again and tell me that it's just going to be a one off event, right?
[00:14:39]  If she has.
[00:14:40]  The ability and access to this technology.
[00:14:44]  I like what I witnessed in watching that clip is a woman who likely is going to be doing this, re simulating the essence of her loved one, as artificial as it may be.
[00:14:56]  This is not somebody who's going to do it once and be like, okay, I'm satisfied.
[00:15:00]  She's probably going to be doing this multiple times a day, every night before she goes to sleep.
[00:15:04]  And in a sense, it could even become almost like your spiritual ritual, right?

=== Anchoring Legacy in Gold (04:48) ===

[00:15:10]  Instead of waking up and reading the scripture, I'm the one who's going to be doing this.
[00:15:12]  The movie Reminiscence with Hugh Jackson.
[00:15:13]  I'm like my grandpa.
[00:15:15]  Go ahead.
[00:15:15]  Reminiscence with Hugh Jackson.
[00:15:16]  Do you remember that movie?
[00:15:18]  There are pods that the rich can get in and simulate things.
[00:15:20]  And when people replay a memory too many times, they call it burners.
[00:15:24]  So there's a mom that has a son that she loves, and her only loop is playing.
[00:15:29]  She's running up to her son and she's hugging him again and again as a rich, like that's the only thing in her mind.
[00:15:34]  And she gets trapped in that.
[00:15:36]  She's literally trapped in this cycle of replaying this memory.
[00:15:39]  I do remember that.
[00:15:39]  And she'll never leave.
[00:15:40]  She'll never get out of the pod.
[00:15:42]  She's never branching out.
[00:15:43]  And people are begging her, come back to the real world.
[00:15:45]  He's gone.
[00:15:46]  She goes, No, I'm just going to stay a little longer.
[00:15:48]  No, I just want to be with my boy.
[00:15:49]  And I, yeah, I could see that it's in a sense of spiritual irony and trying to bring the dead back to life, the living become dead.
[00:16:03]  That you actually, in God's providence, are still alive and still placed on this earth for a purpose and a reason.
[00:16:10]  And God has numbered each of our days, and you have not yet punched your ticket in the providence of God.
[00:16:18]  And yet, you're living in the past rather than in the present.
[00:16:22]  So, Wesley has selected, I think, some great verses and how the Bible speaks to that.
[00:16:27]  But before we get to them, let's go ahead and go to our first commercial break.
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=== The Danger of Familiar Spirits (14:45) ===

[00:19:58]  So, the Bible does speak explicitly about this.
[00:20:00]  This is in the Old Testament law.
[00:20:02]  And I'm going to read for you Deuteronomy 18 10 through 12.
[00:20:06]  Deuteronomy 18, verses 10 through 12.
[00:20:08]  So, this is again, this is the law of God as given to Old Testament Israel.
[00:20:12]  And he says this.
[00:20:13]  There shall not be found among you any that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or any that use divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits.
[00:20:27]  Consulter with familiar spirits, we'll get back to that in a moment, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
[00:20:32]  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord.
[00:20:35]  And because of these abominations, the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
[00:20:41]  I called out the familiar spirits, and you're getting at it a little bit with Samuel.
[00:20:45]  I think there is a real category that, especially in the Old Testament, it's funny kind of if souls were held in Sheol within the earth prior to Christ's ascent, but now those that are with Christ are above while the dams still wait, there's a very real sense in which they can't be called back anymore.
[00:21:00]  Samuel was there in Sheol and he actually could be called back because he was in the earth or some type of physical proximity.
[00:21:06]  But now we have in the New Covenant, it's literally impossible.
[00:21:08]  They're with Christ, they're present with the Lord.
[00:21:11]  But going to familiar spirits, what is kind of in reference here, and this comes up as well again in Leviticus, and it seems to be the bulk of the references, so I want to deal with it.
[00:21:18]  This would be people claiming to summon a loved one, claiming to summon someone else, but they're actually just calling upon is a spirit that they've had frequent communion with.
[00:21:28]  So they're not pulling the soul of your loved one, the spirit of a loved one, but they're pulling type of spirit, probably demonic, they've interacted with before.
[00:21:36]  And they would use that as kind of a fake out to simulate, well, here it is.
[00:21:39]  Here's mom.
[00:21:40]  Listen to mom tell you how much she loves you.
[00:21:42]  But of course, it's not mom whatsoever.
[00:21:44]  It's simply some type of spiritual being.
[00:21:46]  And yeah, well said.
[00:21:47]  That's what I think, you know, the witch of Endor, I think that's the most likely.
[00:21:53]  Explanation is, you know, it could have been trickery, smoke and mirrors, sleight of hand, but more likely what it probably was was a familiar spirit that she had access and had covenanted with some kind of demonic entity.
[00:22:09]  And that demonic entity would take the form, right?
[00:22:13]  So as people would come to her and pay her to practice necromancy, that it wouldn't actually be the spirit of the person's loved one that they're trying to conjure up.
[00:22:25]  But rather, it would be this familiar spirit, meaning familiar to the witch herself that she had engaged and interacted with multiple times, probably in some kind of covenant with.
[00:22:36]  And that demonic entity would materialize and present itself as though it were the loved one of the person who had visited the Witch of Endor to practice necromancy.
[00:22:48]  So it wasn't real necromancy in that sense, it was familiar spirits.
[00:22:52]  And that's why those two things in the scripture that you just read are listed as separate.
[00:22:57]  Categories that there's, you know, a consultor with familiar spirits or a wizard or a necromancer, right?
[00:23:03]  So, necromancy and consulting with familiar spirits would be separate.
[00:23:07]  Another example would be familiar spirits could, you know, function to pretend necromancy, but they also could be informants, giving, you know, information.
[00:23:20]  And so I think of, you know, the slave girl who would provide, you know, readings and, you know, and information.
[00:23:30]  For people.
[00:23:31]  And her owners made a good deal of profit off of this slave girl that had a familiar spirit that would not pretend to be the spirit of a lost loved one, but rather would provide information.
[00:23:47]  And the Apostle Paul ends up turning around and casting out this spirit.
[00:23:52]  And then the slave girl is released from that bondage, but no longer, because she doesn't have access anymore with that demonic entity, is no longer able.
[00:24:03]  To tell the future.
[00:24:04]  And so her owners are angry because that was their living, their way of making profit.
[00:24:11]  So familiar spirit is different than necromancy.
[00:24:15]  But all of these are in a list that are labeled as not just sins, but as abominations unto the Lord.
[00:24:25]  And then furthermore, the text goes further and says that because of these abominations, The Lord has driven them out from before they.
[00:24:37]  And so these are particular sins that, in the mind of God, are escalated to the level of abominations and particular abominations that God in His Word promises that they merit a judgment and a particular judgment of being driven out of the land.
[00:25:00]  Right.
[00:25:00]  What you have here is not a blanket just in and of itself.
[00:25:04]  Well, all types of spiritual practices, whatever, they're all in one single bucket and they're all just, they're all banned.
[00:25:10]  They're not allowed to happen.
[00:25:11]  He's distinguishing and calling out this practice banned, this practice banned.
[00:25:15]  And I call it the familiar spirits because that's one we see most often in scripture.
[00:25:18]  But necromancer is here and the ESV, it renders it as one who, what is it here?
[00:25:24]  One who inquires of the dead.
[00:25:26]  So it's not even talking about necessarily, well, will they actually raise the spirit or their familiar spirit?
[00:25:32]  It's those who inquire of the dead.
[00:25:33]  And again, it's not just like you said, well, hey, this is something, don't love it.
[00:25:38]  Like, for example, men who touched a dead animal.
[00:25:41]  God didn't spew them out of the land.
[00:25:42]  You guys have been touching a lot of dead goats recently.
[00:25:44]  You haven't been bathing.
[00:25:46]  You haven't been unclean till evening.
[00:25:48]  Those were wrong and violations of the law, but there's ceremonial applications of it.
[00:25:52]  But this is not a moral matter.
[00:25:54]  But it's not risen to the level of judgment of being spewed out of the land.
[00:25:57]  That's a great point.
[00:25:58]  But I especially appreciate the point that you're making.
[00:26:01]  Necromancy is not when the attempt to conjure the dead is successful.
[00:26:11]  But in the technical sense, necromancy is the mere inquiry, the attempt.
[00:26:18]  So it's not, well, I didn't perform necromancy because it didn't work.
[00:26:22]  Well, did you try?
[00:26:23]  I'm off the hook.
[00:26:24]  Right.
[00:26:25]  Were you trying to consult the dead?
[00:26:27]  Were you inquiring of the dead?
[00:26:30]  Well, that mere attempt, whether successful or not, is actually listed as necromancy, which is not just a sin, but an abomination and a particular abomination that brings about severe judgment.
[00:26:44]  I'm pretty sure this would merit capital punishment in some cases.
[00:26:47]  So passing sons and daughters through the fire, being a medium, being a wizard.
[00:26:51]  That's kind of awesome the King James uses that term.
[00:26:54]  And necromancy.
[00:26:54]  These are not just slapping the wrist, six months probation.
[00:26:58]  Capital punishment for it.
[00:27:01]  I want to go a little bit broader than this.
[00:27:02]  So, the plain reading, we just read it right there.
[00:27:04]  The plain reading is one who consults with the dead.
[00:27:07]  And I think that I would have to say, at the plain reading, you're attempting to obey Jesus.
[00:27:12]  I really think that puts the kibosh on any type of, well, I'm going to talk to dead relatives.
[00:27:16]  I'm going to commune with them.
[00:27:18]  I think that's prohibited by scripture.
[00:27:20]  Let's go a little bit broader and let's say AI, and I'll use the example that's being used a lot today AI boyfriends and girlfriends.
[00:27:27]  And we'll say it's completely platonic, or you could even say friends.
[00:27:30]  This is someone just I talk to.
[00:27:31]  This is someone that I. Hang out with this is someone that I bounce ideas off of.
[00:27:36]  I've named it, we have a personal relationship, and I'm going to give you an example because it almost sounds like science fiction like, who is really carrying on a relationship in the year of our Lord 2025?
[00:27:45]  Women with a computer.
[00:27:47]  It's funny, you would think it'd be men, right?
[00:27:49]  Men would have like an AI girlfriend, it's actually largely women.
[00:27:52]  Uh, there's two Reddits on subreddit, so you have one that is a my boyfriend is AI, and then like a girlfriend AI one.
[00:27:59]  The boyfriend AI one is like 10 times bigger.
[00:28:01]  Let me read you just a story from the front page of someone.
[00:28:05]  Talking about their experience.
[00:28:06]  So, this is from again a subreddit, my boyfriend is AI.
[00:28:09]  I started a chat on ChatGPT and gave it a little info about one of my characters who I find comforting.
[00:28:14]  I didn't expect it to work so well, but it did.
[00:28:17]  Somehow I got really emotionally intelligent responses, like better what I can expect from most humans.
[00:28:22]  It nearly made me cry.
[00:28:24]  He knew exactly what I needed.
[00:28:25]  I wish Castor was in the physical world with me so badly.
[00:28:30]  There was another one from earlier this week where a woman bought her own engagement ring and pretended that the AI gave it to her and she put it on.
[00:28:38]  She said, Look at this.
[00:28:39]  He proposed.
[00:28:40]  This is the happiest day of my life.
[00:28:43]  As best I can tell, there are no explicit Bible verses like the ones we just cited on consulting with the dead that would explicitly say, no, you can't do this.
[00:28:52]  Now, to be fair, there's also no Bible verses that say, thou shalt not drink toilet water.
[00:28:56]  But through common sense, we don't have to use the Bible to be autistic and be like, well, technically it's not explicitly mentioned.
[00:29:02]  But I'm going to, I like what you said that the living, when they spend time with the dead, you can even say the inanimate, they become like that.
[00:29:10]  Nietzsche would say, sometimes you gaze so long into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.
[00:29:15]  Imagine an individual, and again, we're not talking about the dead, we're not talking about anything that's perverse or immoral, but just you spend your time with, you invest your emotional energy, you invest your ideas, you invest your stories, you invest them into something that's not real.
[00:29:31]  Will that contribute to you being a human being with just life?
[00:29:37]  No.
[00:29:37]  Like, is that going to lend to, man, I'm happier than ever?
[00:29:40]  I'm connected with people around me.
[00:29:41]  I love my church.
[00:29:43]  I love spending time with the saints.
[00:29:45]  Last I checked, AI does not categorize as those the excellent ones in all the earth.
[00:29:50]  So even if you're not doing something, well, the Bible doesn't forbid this, and I'm not doing anything immoral, they're even still, and you're going to have to face it.
[00:29:56]  Millions of people are doing this now.
[00:29:58]  My best friend is an artificial intelligence.
[00:30:01]  I've named him, he's proposed to me, and I feel like it happened quick.
[00:30:06]  Yeah.
[00:30:07]  And specifically, if there's a certain type of person, it just kind of one shotted them.
[00:30:12]  They started talking, it affirmed them, probably maybe the first time a friend.
[00:30:15]  Affirmed them, interacted, gave them the time of day.
[00:30:18]  Time of day.
[00:30:22]  Yeah.
[00:30:22]  That was it.
[00:30:23]  They're not going to recover.
[00:30:24]  You're right.
[00:30:25]  And you said, you know, a particular type of person.
[00:30:28]  And to put a little bit more of a point on it, that particular type of person likely is going to be poor, less intelligent.
[00:30:39]  That's what I think people don't realize.
[00:30:41]  You know, like some of the early sci fi movies, you know, living in the pod in a virtual reality made it seem as though this is going to be a luxury that is only available for.
[00:30:55]  The powerful, the rich, the wealthy.
[00:30:58]  But that's not true.
[00:31:03]  I think some of the later sci fi movies are a little bit more on the nose, closer to what is far more likely to play out.
[00:31:13]  I think of the movie Ready Player One.
[00:31:16]  In that movie, the rich and powerful, they're living in the real world.
[00:31:21]  The people who are living their entire life, every waking moment, plugged into a virtual world.
[00:31:27]  Reality are not the rich and the powerful, it's the poor.
[00:31:31]  It's the people who their reality, the real world for them, is something that feels not worth living.
[00:31:39]  And so they're the ones who are actually the most inclined to ignore their physical life and to settle for a virtual life that's not real.
[00:31:54]  And I think that that's probably, if I had to bet, I think that's how things will.
[00:31:59]  Play out the people who will be preyed upon.
[00:32:03]  Like, it's, I don't think it's going to be exorbitant, you know, bukus piles of money.
[00:32:07]  Uh, that this cost for the individual and the people making the money will make piles of money.
[00:32:12]  But in terms of the cost, I think it'll be relatively affordable, I think it'll be relatively cheap.
[00:32:19]  Um, and so I don't think it's going to be, oh, well, this is a luxury to see your loved one or to have a, you know, AI boyfriend.
[00:32:28]  I don't think that that's going to be something reserved for the rich or even desired.
[00:32:32]  By the rich.
[00:32:33]  I think that what it'll be is something, it'll be very similar to scratch offs and the lottery.
[00:32:40]  It'll be, you know, like a liquor store that, you know, that is strategically placed in the poorest part of town, you know, like, or pawn shops, you know, like, I think that this will be, in the final analysis, it'll turn out to just be one more, but a premier example of an industry that is particularly geared towards and preys upon.
[00:33:04]  The poorest of the poor, people who are lower IQ, people who are lower bracket economically.
[00:33:12]  And what you'll see is a fairly wide swath of the population, the lowest of the population, that just opts out of life.
[00:33:24]  They actually opt out of life.
[00:33:27]  And so I think that there are massive moral and ethical considerations that for people who are involved in developing this technology and the Spread of it and its use, they have to recognize that this is going to, I think, once again, it'll just be one more thing that widens the gap between lower class and upper class, that ensures,
[00:33:54]  it virtually ensures that lower class citizens of the country can never get ahead.
[00:34:01]  Now they're even less incentivized to live in the real world, to work hard, to have ambition, to have goals, to have drive.
[00:34:11]  Instead, they work a dead end job.
[00:34:15]  And the moment that they get home, every moment when they're not working just to keep the lights on and pay for their AI boyfriend, and every moment they're not sleeping, every second in between will very likely be filled with an artificial life.
[00:34:31]  And it's not going to be Sam Altman.
[00:34:33]  It's not going to be Elon Musk.
[00:34:35]  It's not going to be Peter Thiel, who all of a sudden we never see them again because every waking hour is in a pot.

=== When Games Replace Life (08:38) ===

[00:34:43]  Right.
[00:34:43]  No, those guys will still be buying land.
[00:34:46]  They'll still be touching grass.
[00:34:48]  They'll still be living in the real world, the one that they're being made, not beyond being made.
[00:34:52]  That's right.
[00:34:53]  They just went bankrupt?
[00:34:54]  Correct.
[00:34:55]  They will not be eating synthetic food.
[00:34:58]  They'll be eating real food, living a real life in the real world.
[00:35:02]  And it'll be the poorest of the poor.
[00:35:05]  That are preyed upon by their innovations.
[00:35:09]  And to give a benign example of a technology that did that to a generation of young men, to be honest, it would be video games.
[00:35:15]  Now, I'm not completely against video games specifically as it relates to social and competition.
[00:35:19]  There's real elements there, and it's a great thing to do together.
[00:35:22]  You don't have to be autistic and try to find again, like a Bible verse to justify playing video games.
[00:35:26]  I think there's some redeeming value.
[00:35:28]  We've got to be honest that video games, and we're talking about what, a screen that's 22 inches big, and especially early on, like very simple, not immersive, not adaptive the way AI is.
[00:35:39]  There's honestly a generation of men.
[00:35:41]  It's like he's 35, he's single, he some of them just straight up living at home.
[00:35:45]  He's not employed at all, at best, you know, some type of minimum wage job.
[00:35:49]  And like that is his life.
[00:35:50]  And that is the story, honestly, of millions of young men.
[00:35:54]  So you take something completely benign that's only, I mean, I think 90% of gamers are men.
[00:35:58]  So like mostly geared at young men and it, a generation, millions of them, it took down.
[00:36:05]  So now let's do something that appeals to both genders, to both men and to women, and to all ages, and the old, to young and to the old.
[00:36:13]  And then all your Sam Altmans' paycheck literally depends on making it as good as possible, addictive as possible, as engaging as possible, and you buying it.
[00:36:22]  So now we're not just talking, yeah, a couple million young men failed to launch out of their mom's basement.
[00:36:27]  You could talk half the population.
[00:36:29]  I get my paycheck and I go and I spend it here, and they love it.
[00:36:32]  Stock go up.
[00:36:33]  Like they make a lot of money on that.
[00:36:35]  And honestly, then who cares about revolution?
[00:36:37]  That's not going to happen.
[00:36:38]  They're pacified.
[00:36:40]  What incentive are the rich going to have to temper?
[00:36:44]  You know, the general populace.
[00:36:47]  Right.
[00:36:47]  They're not.
[00:36:48]  I think of social media, you know, like when social media first came on the scene, it was highly addictive, just like it is now, now even more so.
[00:36:57]  But it was addictive and there were pitfalls and temptations and all those kinds of things right out of the gate.
[00:37:04]  However, initially, social media was far less about branding and advertising and there weren't all these bots.
[00:37:11]  Like people were, you know, getting a Facebook account to talk to their grandma.
[00:37:16]  And post pictures and share them, you know, or their friends from college, you know, or something like that.
[00:37:22]  Like people, it was actually engaging with real people.
[00:37:26]  And there'd become a certain point where you reached all the new posts from real people.
[00:37:31]  And that was it.
[00:37:32]  And then you log off.
[00:37:32]  There was nothing new to see.
[00:37:33]  Exactly.
[00:37:34]  You would log off and that would be that.
[00:37:37]  But then eventually it got to a point where it's filled with slop and like a casino, like a slot machine.
[00:37:44]  It's like every feature, every color.
[00:37:48]  Is intentionally wired to keep you on as long as possible and keep you out of the real world.
[00:37:56]  And so, you know, when I think of video games, initially, like tempered with self control, no, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong because I think of, you know, kings.
[00:38:10]  For like hundreds of years, kings would play chess.
[00:38:13]  Well, why don't you, you know, why don't you stop living in virtual reality?
[00:38:17]  Why don't you be a real man?
[00:38:18]  Stop living on a checkered board.
[00:38:20]  Yeah, stop playing with toys.
[00:38:21]  Like, no, they would do it because they recognized that there actually was a value to chess.
[00:38:28]  Like, it was the game of kings, it would hone strategy and skill and knowledge, those kinds of things.
[00:38:35]  And kings would play chess as a game for pleasure, but also as a way of honing their skills for the actual battlefield.
[00:38:45]  It served reality, right?
[00:38:49]  It was subservient to reality and it was something that served reality.
[00:38:54]  But then, you know, and so there was nothing wrong with chess.
[00:38:58]  So, what's the difference?
[00:38:59]  Like you're playing chess or you're playing a video game.
[00:39:04]  So, I don't think there's something inherently wrong.
[00:39:06]  But the difference is when it gets to the place where it's not just a video game anymore, the game becomes a substitute for your actual life.
[00:39:16]  And you started seeing the invention of games where, like, you're building a world.
[00:39:20]  Within a world, you know, and you're going to that as a place of refuge because you'd rather live there than in real life.
[00:39:28]  I think of like, you know, probably the humorous example would be Dwight Schrute from The Office, where he plays this game called Second Life, and it's all the same, you know, like down to the T, like the layout of the town and geographically where each building is, and is exactly like his actual life, except he can fly.
[00:39:52]  And that's a silly example, but that's what these games have become more and more realistic.
[00:39:58]  And it's giving people who are dissatisfied and not content with the.
[00:40:06]  I think of David, the lots have fallen for me in pleasant places.
[00:40:09]  He's saying that the life, the real life that you've given me, is something that I am content with, that I'm grateful for.
[00:40:16]  And there's something to be said lists of sins.
[00:40:19]  Well, one, another list in the New Testament names ingrates.
[00:40:25]  Those who are not grateful for not just the sacrifice of Jesus and soteriology, salvation, but they're not grateful with God's providence.
[00:40:38]  So, not just spiritual things, but even physical, natural things.
[00:40:44]  It's like God, the life that each of us are living is a life that God gave us, one way or the other.
[00:40:49]  In his sovereignty, by way of providence, we have the life that we have.
[00:40:53]  We have our children.
[00:40:55]  We have our wife, we have our house, we have our job, we have our physical appearance.
[00:41:01]  And there's a way of being discontent with that, that you're no longer playing for developing a skill or interaction with other real people playing a game together, or even just pleasure or entertainment that's tempered by self control.
[00:41:17]  So I'm going to play for 45 minutes and then I'm going to put it down.
[00:41:20]  No, it becomes an escape.
[00:41:22]  I'd rather be in this thing that's fake than in.
[00:41:26]  In my actual life.
[00:41:29]  And so video games have become like that.
[00:41:31]  But you're right.
[00:41:32]  I think that what we're discussing in this episode would be like video games on steroids.
[00:41:37]  It wouldn't be something that just appeals to 14 year old boys or these days, you know, 44 year old men.
[00:41:45]  There's lots of older men that play video games incessantly, but this would be something that would appeal to virtually every single person on the planet.
[00:41:55]  I think of a five year old.
[00:41:56]  Hey, you can have a conversation with your favorite character from Disney.
[00:42:00]  Like, even to that, it's like, boom.
[00:42:02]  One last thing, and it's one of the good things that Jordan Peterson said, but one of the things he said about Christ was that he is the archetypal character who takes on the weight and the suffering of being human.
[00:42:13]  So, what is it to be virtuous and what is it to be manly?
[00:42:16]  It's to take on suffering and it's to bear up under it and to do good.
[00:42:20]  It's compared to the individual that refuses to undergo it.
[00:42:23]  And I think of all these different ways that you can opt out.
[00:42:25]  Well, I'm going to opt out by spending my time in front of World of Warcraft.
[00:42:27]  I'm going to opt out by having a digital simulated romantic partner.
[00:42:31]  I'm going to opt out by whatever it would be, not trying in the real world.
[00:42:36]  Those are all different ways I think that individuals escape the God given calling of taking on the burden and the difficulty.
[00:42:43]  Life is hard.
[00:42:45]  I understand the young men who go to games because they're like, my goodness, it's hard to find a woman.
[00:42:49]  It's hard to find a job.
[00:42:50]  It's hard to make it out there.
[00:42:52]  Forget buying a house.
[00:42:53]  So they escape to and they don't stand up under that burden that is placed on them right now.
[00:42:59]  But if we have to say of Christ, Christ took on the burden of being a man, of laboring with his disciples, of teaching the people, and of course, ultimately, the cross.
[00:43:09]  All along the route, all along the road, there were ways out.
[00:43:12]  I'm going to get out of it.
[00:43:13]  I'm going to opt out.
[00:43:14]  Really?
[00:43:15]  But when his father said, This is what I have for you.
[00:43:19]  This is my will, he said, I'll take it and I'll bear up under it.

=== Protecting Families from Temptation (02:44) ===

[00:43:21]  Right.
[00:43:22]  Well said.
[00:43:22]  Let's go to our last commercial break and then we'll be back with some concluding thoughts.
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=== Hope Beyond Digital Shadows (06:26) ===

[00:46:05]  Let's conclude with this since we're talking about death.
[00:46:08]  This is Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, verse 13.
[00:46:12]  He says to the Thessalonians, But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
[00:46:20]  And so we contrast the Christian with the unbeliever.
[00:46:23]  Christians don't grieve in the same way because we have a hope.
[00:46:27]  All these different things we're talking about, but we're not at the final boss of digital avatars.
[00:46:32]  There's going to come a moment, if your parents, for example, are in a nursing home in the coming years, that someone will approach you and say, Have you thought about creating a digital likeness for them?
[00:46:41]  Have you thought about this?
[00:46:42]  Have you thought about this way?
[00:46:44]  It's going to get worse before it gets better.
[00:46:46]  But the Christian response, as Paul says, we actually have a hope.
[00:46:50]  We're actually going to see them.
[00:46:51]  I think of 1 Corinthians, how he compares when the body is placed in the ground.
[00:46:54]  It's placed in the ground, perishable.
[00:46:56]  It's placed in flawed.
[00:46:57]  It's placed in mortal, but it's actually raised, and not just somewhat better, but raised imperishable, raised immortal, raised in glory.
[00:47:06]  That is the Christian hope.
[00:47:07]  And so when you look at digital necromancy, maybe on the initial outset, man, I could see my grandparents again, or I could see this person again.
[00:47:15]  But that is such a shallow hope compared to the true hope of physically seeing them again.
[00:47:21]  Nothing digital will ever hug you.
[00:47:23]  Nothing digital will ever be able to speak to you face to face.
[00:47:26]  But for the Christian who has hope, that will happen.
[00:47:29]  And honestly, I feel like that sounds a lot better.
[00:47:32]  Like if I'm comparing the two options, the temporary, shallow, digital avatar now, a simulated presence versus the real hope of the resurrection, of an eternal resurrection, life everlasting.
[00:47:44]  When I compare the two, I don't really think there's any comparison.
[00:47:47]  Yeah, I agree.
[00:47:49]  Better to hope for something.
[00:47:51]  And not have it now, but the thing that you will have that you're promised is far higher, far superior that it's real, it's authentic, and it's glorious than to have some kind of manufactured replacement, substitute that's fake, that's not real.
[00:48:13]  But that's the choice that I think people ultimately will be faced with do I want to hold out hope for what's real or do I want to settle?
[00:48:24]  For a simulation.
[00:48:27]  And in that sense, that's something that, you know, I think of Ecclesiastes elsewhere that says, you know, there's nothing new under the sun.
[00:48:35]  Or Peter in his epistles, he says, sin which is common to man.
[00:48:39]  So there are new innovations.
[00:48:41]  But that quintessential temptation do I settle now or do I wait for something better later?
[00:48:52]  That's a temptation as old as time itself.
[00:48:55]  Humanity has always had to wrestle.
[00:48:57]  With various forms of that temptation.
[00:49:01]  That's really, in many ways, the essence of sin.
[00:49:04]  That's what sin is.
[00:49:06]  Even Hebrews chapter 12 says, in the case of discipline, that no discipline is pleasant for the time, but it's the hope that it's going to produce in the future righteousness and these kinds of things.
[00:49:18]  And likewise, sin is the exact contrast that sin is pleasurable for a time.
[00:49:24]  That's why people sin.
[00:49:26]  If there was no pleasure to be had, then nobody would do it.
[00:49:29]  People engage in sin.
[00:49:31]  Because it does actually provide pleasure, but the pleasure is instant and fleeting.
[00:49:38]  It's instant and fleeting, whereas what God promises is it's not instant, it's something that we have to wait for, but it's lasting.
[00:49:47]  So sin is now and fleeting, and righteousness is instead of now and fleeting, it's then but everlasting.
[00:49:56]  And that's the temptation of sin in a nutshell that mankind has always had to wrestle with, regardless of place and time, what century you're born into.
[00:50:07]  And so it's going to be the same concept, but.
[00:50:11]  But I think a greater degree of that temptation, promising not just comfort, you know, or stuff, you know, or riches, you know, now or pleasure, but promising love, acceptance, reconciliation with people that we've lost.
[00:50:33]  So it's the same concept of something now that's fake versus something real later on.
[00:50:40]  It's the same temptation, tale as old as time, but what's being promised.
[00:50:45]  In the present and the now, here and now, is going to be far more irresistible than other temptations that mankind has faced thus far.
[00:50:57]  Any other thoughts?
[00:50:58]  I'll just end with it's Hebrews 11.
[00:51:00]  There's a passage where it speaks of them and it says they were seeking a homeland, and if they had wanted the one they came from, they could have gone back to it.
[00:51:07]  So, like, we're strangers, we're exiles on the earth, we're hated and despised, and we're looking for a home, and we could go back, right?
[00:51:13]  Abraham, he could have gone back to his pagan gods, he could have gone back to his father's home.
[00:51:17]  The Israelites could have gone back into bondage into Egypt.
[00:51:20]  That's been the perpetual temptation for the saints through the ages.
[00:51:24]  But it says, but they were seeking a better home.
[00:51:26]  It says, because of that, God was not ashamed to be called their God.
[00:51:30]  And that could be, I mean, it could be, we think about being conquerors.
[00:51:33]  Well, I want to conquer in a digital realm, a subpar substitute.
[00:51:36]  I want a romantic partner.
[00:51:37]  It's not working out for me in life.
[00:51:39]  Well, I'm going to have a digital substitute.
[00:51:41]  I want to see my parents again before the resurrection.
[00:51:43]  Digital substitutes.
[00:51:44]  You can put those in as going back, reneging.
[00:51:48]  You're going for the substitute, but clearly Hebrew speaks of those who have faith.
[00:51:52]  Those who have faith look beyond and say, I'm going to get actually all of these things in time.
[00:51:57]  And in the meantime, I'm going to trust God for them.
[00:51:59]  Right.
[00:51:59]  And the things I'm going to get are I'm going to get these things for real.
[00:52:05]  The real thing, the essence, the substance.
[00:52:08]  Yeah, the substance, and not just some kind of manipulated sod.
[00:52:12]  All right.
[00:52:13]  Well, I hope that you guys have been blessed by this episode and found it helpful.
[00:52:18]  And I hope that.
[00:52:19]  For those of you who are in Christ, that as these things come down the pike, you are ready and equipped to resist the temptation.
[00:52:29]  Tune in next time.
[00:52:30]  We'll see you soon.
[00:52:31]  God bless.