NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Red Heifers & The End Times with Dr. Taylor Marshall
Aired: 2025-08-20
Duration: 01:48:55


=== Roasting John Calvin (01:43) ===

[00:00:00]  Leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform.
[00:00:04]  I get it.
[00:00:04]  It's annoying.
[00:00:05]  Everybody asks, but I'm going to tell you why.
[00:00:07]  When you give us a positive review, what that does is it triggers the algorithm so that our podcast shows up on more people's news feeds.
[00:00:16]  You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.
[00:00:21]  We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.
[00:00:31]  All right, today's episode, we are going to be talking about red heifers and the end times.
[00:00:36]  We are having as a special guest on this episode Dr. Taylor Marshall, who, in the providence of God, decided to just roast John Calvin two hours before coming on our show, which the timing is unfortunate.
[00:00:51]  I don't appreciate that.
[00:00:52]  I like Calvin, he does not.
[00:00:54]  There are plenty of things that we could debate, but we did not invite him on the show to debate.
[00:00:58]  He's Catholic, we're Protestant.
[00:01:01]  But there's one thing that we can agree on.
[00:01:03]  There's actually a lot of things, but there's one thing particular Catholic, Protestant, not liking dispensationalists and Zionists, boom, united.
[00:01:12]  So without further ado, we're going to hop into the show, and we're excited to have Dr. Taylor Marshall with us.
[00:01:26]  We're back.
[00:01:27]  We're so back.
[00:01:27]  Some might say, Dr. Taylor Marshall, thank you for joining us on the show.
[00:01:32]  Great to be here.
[00:01:33]  Tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself.
[00:01:36]  When you're not roasting John Calvin online, what are some of the other things that you're doing?
[00:01:42]  I think your audience may find interesting.

=== Becoming a Married Catholic Priest (02:31) ===

[00:01:44]  I grew up really nothing.
[00:01:46]  My parents would have been generally Protestant.
[00:01:50]  Had an evangelical conversion in middle school.
[00:01:53]  Kind of went on a quest what is the best denomination form of Christianity?
[00:01:58]  Eventually, I moved towards Reformed theology in college.
[00:02:02]  Went to RUF, joined the PCA, went to Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, graduated there.
[00:02:09]  But during that process, I kind of became interested in what is magisterial Protestant theology, church fathers, scholastics, Thomas Aquinas, and became Anglican and was ordained Episcopal priest.
[00:02:27]  And then thereafter, I became a Catholic.
[00:02:29]  So that's my background.
[00:02:30]  Married, we have eight.
[00:02:31]  Beautiful children, and I run a podcast on YouTube, Dr. Taylor Marshall podcast, and I run the new St. Thomas Institute online courses.
[00:02:42]  We have over 3,000 students, and I've written about 12 books.
[00:02:48]  All right.
[00:02:50]  Did you mainly stop pastoring because of your convictions and being persuaded of Roman Catholicism?
[00:02:58]  And it's like, well, that ship sailed because I'm married and have children, or I like.
[00:03:05]  If you could be married in the Catholic Church and be a priest, would you still be a priest?
[00:03:08]  Or was it like, no, I really wanted to leave the priesthood and that ship?
[00:03:13]  You know, like I had already kind of hopped off of that vocation, felt the Lord calling me otherwise, and then became Catholic.
[00:03:20]  Well, there's something called the pastoral provision in the Catholic Church.
[00:03:23]  So if you're a former Anglican clergy member, you can apply for it.
[00:03:27]  And actually, when I became Catholic, I was automatically brought in, I became a candidate for orders and was set up to be ordained.
[00:03:34]  So if you were married, Anglican priest, and you become Catholic, you can be a married Catholic priest.
[00:03:40]  They usually give you a one or two year preparation time, extra seminary, and then you can come into the church.
[00:03:45]  So there's several dozen of those in the United States.
[00:03:49]  So I was in that process and I discerned out of it when I was in the process and chose to be a layman.
[00:03:55]  I didn't feel I had that vocation to be a Catholic priest or to be a married Catholic priest.
[00:03:59]  So I did have that option.
[00:04:01]  I technically still have that option.
[00:04:02]  I could call them up and say, hey, I want to re enroll and And become a married Catholic priest.
[00:04:08]  So it is allowed through that pastoral provision, but I've discerned that's not my calling.
[00:04:14]  That's interesting.

=== The Red Heifer Ritual (14:50) ===

[00:04:15]  Okay.
[00:04:16]  Well, let's talk about red heifers.
[00:04:19]  Yes, let's do it.
[00:04:20]  We're ready.
[00:04:21]  It sounds like you just did a show, actually.
[00:04:23]  You were on Tim Pool talking about this.
[00:04:25]  It was actually, I think, on Tim Pool's show that an individual who kind of broke the news that this wasn't just a rehearsal in Texas, but they did it for the real deal talking about it.
[00:04:35]  So I'm going to turn it to you for the explanation.
[00:04:36]  But before we do that, I'm going to go ahead and show a clip that I think is really helpful with just the visuals and an explanation.
[00:04:41]  So, this is one of two clips giving an overview.
[00:04:43]  And I'd love to hear from you, Dr. Marshall.
[00:04:45]  We have some of the verses.
[00:04:47]  What's kind of the theological basis for this idea of the red heifer being needed to purify and cleanse Israel so the third temple can begin, and then getting into the Christian response to it?
[00:04:56]  So, let's play the clip.
[00:04:57]  And as soon as we come out of it, I'll turn it over to you to give kind of the theological foundations for why a lot of, for certainly Jews, but really dispensationalists and evangelicals, why they view this as such an important event as well.
[00:05:08]  Breaking Red Heifer Sacrifice Update.
[00:05:10]  The recent Red Heifer Sacrifice wasn't burned in a rehearsal, it was real.
[00:05:14]  The Red Heifer people, they fooled everybody.
[00:05:16]  So, what they did was they said, We're just gonna do a practice one.
[00:05:19]  According to Adam King, he has the ashes.
[00:05:21]  Right here, red heifer ashes.
[00:05:23]  They ended up going out, doing a real cow, and that's tikva.
[00:05:26]  It was a real offering.
[00:05:27]  They did it all by the laws.
[00:05:29]  Byron Stinson, the Christian evangelical Texas cattleman we interviewed in Cryspiracy, whose segment was banned from theaters worldwide, raised the red heifers and flew them to Israel using government backed loopholes and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
[00:05:43]  He confirmed a perfect red heifer sacrificed in a perfect ceremony.
[00:05:48]  Now that this happened, the Messiah can come build the third temple in Jerusalem.
[00:05:52]  This ritual is intended to restart.
[00:05:54]  The millions of bloody temple animal sacrifices, a system that Jesus and the Nazarenes turned the tables against.
[00:06:00]  The priests trained for this ceremony were groomed from childhood, forbidden from going outside, and not even allowed to touch the earth.
[00:06:07]  They have to be of a specific bloodline.
[00:06:09]  They raise these children in like these elevated homes above the ground, and they never leave the home until they're ready to do the rituals.
[00:06:15]  So the priest who did this literally lived in his home for over 20 years.
[00:06:19]  Never left?
[00:06:20]  Nope, because he was born to do this ritual.
[00:06:22]  Some say a twisted and deeply abusive path masks.
[00:06:25]  Is purity and this one cow, Tikva, flown from Texas, sacrificed in secret, is now at the center of prophetic claims and miracle rumors.
[00:06:33]  There's going to be miraculous healings as a result of this ritual.
[00:06:38]  Some, like Adam King, are claiming her ashes are healing people around the world.
[00:06:42]  This is the stuff right here, they have been sprinkling on people.
[00:06:45]  A man with Alzheimer's who just started remembering everything, sight to the blind.
[00:06:49]  There's some real miracles that have happened since this has gone down.
[00:06:55]  What do we think?
[00:06:55]  Not great.
[00:06:58]  It's ridiculous.
[00:06:59]  First off, that wasn't done according to the Mosaic precepts.
[00:07:02]  We know that because there's no temple.
[00:07:04]  There is no altar.
[00:07:07]  Whatever they showed in that clip there, that wasn't the Mosaic altar.
[00:07:11]  We've read the Pentateuch.
[00:07:12]  We know what's described there.
[00:07:14]  So it's not valid.
[00:07:16]  It's not true.
[00:07:16]  And it couldn't be valid because we live in the new covenant and Jesus Christ instituted the new and everlasting covenant.
[00:07:23]  He said so at the Last Supper.
[00:07:25]  So if you read the epistle to the Hebrews, you realize that the blood of bulls and goats.
[00:07:32]  Cannot remit sin.
[00:07:33]  They cannot bring about any covenantal blessings anymore.
[00:07:35]  Why?
[00:07:36]  Because the Son of God incarnate of the Virgin Mary has already offered the one holy propitiatory sacrifice.
[00:07:44]  So, you know, I watched that.
[00:07:46]  I said before we went live, I'm actually a cattle rancher myself.
[00:07:49]  I had a red heifer born on my property two days ago.
[00:07:53]  I raise red Angus beef, regenerative red Angus beef.
[00:07:56]  So I got lots of red heifers.
[00:07:57]  The Zionists can't have them.
[00:07:59]  The Jews can't have them.
[00:08:01]  They're Talmud free.
[00:08:03]  We raise them because we like ribeyes and steaks.
[00:08:06]  And healthy meats.
[00:08:07]  And there's a lot of people in Texas that have red heifers.
[00:08:09]  Like people think red heifers are these magical things.
[00:08:12]  I mean, I could take you outside my window right now and show you 40 of them.
[00:08:16]  So, yeah, this is not mosaic.
[00:08:19]  This is superstitious.
[00:08:20]  And honestly, I would say that this is antichrist because, you know, the epistles of John, first, second, third John, they talk about, you know, if you reject the son, you don't have the father.
[00:08:31]  Anyone who rejects the son does not have the father.
[00:08:35]  And John says that is the spirit of antichrist.
[00:08:38]  And so, what you're seeing on the screen right there, Is actually anti Christianity because it is dissolving, it is seeking to undermine the new and everlasting covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ.
[00:08:55]  All of those animal sacrifices were foreshadowing and pointing forward to the cross of Jesus Christ.
[00:09:02]  So, any Christian who wants to get on board with this, they are, Thomas Aquinas would say, they're committing apostasy.
[00:09:11]  Thomas Aquinas says, if any Christian practices the precepts of the Mosaic covenant, he's denying the incarnation.
[00:09:20]  That's a pretty serious thing to do.
[00:09:23]  Yeah.
[00:09:24]  I feel like that's the entirety of the book of Hebrews.
[00:09:27]  The whole book of Hebrews is don't go back to Judaism.
[00:09:31]  And the whole thing is don't hedge your bets.
[00:09:34]  I remember preaching through Hebrews a year, two years ago, maybe.
[00:09:38]  And the whole thing was.
[00:09:40]  If you go back, there's nothing but fire waiting for you.
[00:09:44]  And I personally, the way that I would interpret that is I think certainly the eternal and the spiritual sense, Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10, these covenantal texts.
[00:09:54]  But then also, I think that part of what the apostle is getting at, whoever it is, I tend to think it's Paul, but whoever it is that wrote the book of Hebrews, I think he also knows that by apostolic revelation that Jerusalem is about to get sacked.
[00:10:11]  So, it's not just like that fire is awaiting you, the fire of hell, because you're hedging your bets and you're not trusting in Christ and his finished work.
[00:10:19]  And you're going back and kind of hedging your bets with Judaism, but also that God is about to, by providence through Titus, he's going to destroy Jerusalem.
[00:10:28]  There's literally going to be fire and billows of smoke.
[00:10:32]  And that language that we see, like Joel 2 uses the language clouds of smoke, Isaiah, there's different portions of smoke.
[00:10:39]  And then we see that in Matthew chapter 24 and all of that discourse with Christ himself.
[00:10:44]  And this is not heavenly language.
[00:10:47]  This is not, you know, there's going to be pretty clouds with little baby angels playing, you know, playing harps.
[00:10:54]  It's the clouds of desolation and destruction.
[00:10:57]  It's when buildings collapse and it's judgment language.
[00:11:01]  Isaiah is using judgment language.
[00:11:03]  Joel 2 is using judgment language.
[00:11:07]  And that's what was awaiting anybody.
[00:11:09]  So to me, it seems like there were like two realities the spiritual, eternal reality, but then also the temporal reality.
[00:11:16]  Reality that for those who were not trusting fully in Christ, they would be the ones who would be most inclined to remain in Jerusalem.
[00:11:25]  Even when they saw desolation coming, they would be trusting in the temple and trusting in the old priestly ordinance and these kinds of things.
[00:11:34]  And they would probably that would cause them to geographically stay put.
[00:11:38]  Whereas those who saw these things coming to pass and remember the words of Christ, this generation will not pass away until these things.
[00:11:45]  Come to pass.
[00:11:47]  Remember, no, Jesus said that this was going to happen, that not one stone would be left on another.
[00:11:52]  That they would be more inclined to, if they were Christians, to believe that Jesus actually is the Messiah.
[00:11:58]  He actually is the Son of God.
[00:12:01]  And not just to believe upon him for eternal life, but even temporally, they would be the ones most inclined to say, There's nothing here for us in Jerusalem.
[00:12:10]  If the whole thing's being destroyed, Jesus, the Son of God, said it would happen.
[00:12:15]  Let's get out of Dodge.
[00:12:16]  You know, and so yeah, it just, I feel like there's so many, whether it's Hebrews or multiple, you know, different passages in the New Testament, it just seems like there's such a finality that this old covenant is done, like a garment being rolled up.
[00:12:30]  It's done away with.
[00:12:31]  And the idea that all of the Christian church in the last 2,000 years is just this parenthetical, you know, God's real plan is with Israel, and then he has his side B plan, it's this parentheses, you know, until he can really get back to the project he cares about and pick things back up with Israel.
[00:12:49]  That's just.
[00:12:50]  A terrible way of reading scripture, and it's a terrible way to view the Christian church.
[00:12:57]  What do you think?
[00:12:59]  Yeah, I agree, and I'm glad you brought up the epistle to Hebrews.
[00:13:02]  I also believe Paul's the author, maybe didn't write it, but he's the author of there.
[00:13:06]  I think it's Hebrews 6, you know, where it talks about apostasy.
[00:13:10]  And I don't know exactly, you know, depending on which translation you're reading, but, you know, it says there, there does not remain a sacrifice for sin.
[00:13:18]  The idea is there are no sacrifices for sin after the sacrifice by the high priest, Jesus Christ, enters once into the Holy of Holies and offers the blood of propitiation.
[00:13:30]  Like it can't be any more clear.
[00:13:33]  And then, of course, the Olivet discourse, which you mentioned, but, you know, I would guide us over to, The book of Revelation, the apocalypse.
[00:13:41]  We see over and over again the language of the Whore of Babylon.
[00:13:45]  I don't know what your eschatology is, but if you read the language around the Whore of Babylon and you read about the nuptial discussions of judgment of Jerusalem and the prophet Ezekiel, Jerusalem is the Whore of Babylon.
[00:13:59]  Is that your take?
[00:14:00]  Yeah.
[00:14:00]  Yes, of course.
[00:14:02]  I wrote a book called Antichrist and Apocalypse, and it gives the early church, you know, it's kind of a preterist and futurist approach.
[00:14:09]  I don't know your full.
[00:14:10]  And a historicist approach.
[00:14:11]  There's many levels going on there.
[00:14:13]  I'm a partial preterist, post millennial in my eschatology.
[00:14:17]  Okay.
[00:14:19]  One of the verses in there, it talks about the great city.
[00:14:23]  It calls it Sodom in Egypt.
[00:14:25]  And then it adds this identifier where our Lord was crucified.
[00:14:31]  That means Jerusalem is Egypt.
[00:14:33]  Jerusalem is Sodom.
[00:14:35]  Jerusalem is the Whore of Babylon.
[00:14:37]  And when you read Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and then you read The apocalypse, the book of Revelation, you see with new eyes.
[00:14:48]  You realize that this is the judgment of adulterous Jerusalem.
[00:14:55]  And this is why there is a new Jerusalem.
[00:14:58]  And, you know, both Hebrews and the apocalypse, in the Catholic tradition, we call the book of Revelation apocalypse.
[00:15:04]  That's the Greek word.
[00:15:05]  In both Hebrews and the apocalypse, you see the language of Mount Zion.
[00:15:12]  But it's totally transformed.
[00:15:13]  Like, you can kind of jokingly say, Joel, like, we are the true Zionists, but we don't believe that.
[00:15:18]  Zion or Jerusalem is the dusty town in the Middle East.
[00:15:23]  We believe in the true Mount Zion.
[00:15:26]  And Hebrews talks about how we're on Mount Zion.
[00:15:29]  We're surrounded by a cloud of witness.
[00:15:30]  It's this celestial, beautiful connection between heaven and earth with the throne room of God.
[00:15:36]  And then you go over to the book of Revelation, what do you see in the opening chapters?
[00:15:40]  The throne room of God.
[00:15:42]  And there's an altar there.
[00:15:44]  And on the altar is the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.
[00:15:47]  And it's surrounded by 24 presbyters and the four beasts.
[00:15:51]  All of the imagery of the Old Testament has been fulfilled, and it's a heavenly reality that is real right now.
[00:15:59]  Right.
[00:16:00]  It's right now real.
[00:16:01]  And so when you see dispensational evangelicals and they want to bring in a red heifer or they want to rebuild a third temple, and they think that that dusty town is the true Mount Zion, they are completely neglecting the Epistle of the Hebrews, completely rejecting the Olivet discourse.
[00:16:22]  Also, they're rejecting Galatians and they're rejecting the book of Revelation.
[00:16:26]  It's just like you guys are wrongly dividing the word of God and it's leading you to apostasy.
[00:16:32]  Honestly, Joel, I think we need to get to the point.
[00:16:35]  If you're a magisterial Protestant or a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, this isn't just bad theology, it's not just heresy.
[00:16:44]  If we're going to use the language of the Epistle of Hebrews, it is apostasy in Galatians.
[00:16:50]  You're cutting yourself off.
[00:16:53]  Like Judaizing is apostasy.
[00:16:55]  It's not just like bad theology.
[00:16:56]  Like, oh, you guys are a little bit different.
[00:16:58]  You know, your theology is different.
[00:17:00]  You know, should we use the language of apostasy, cutting yourself off?
[00:17:04]  I mean, what do you guys think on that?
[00:17:06]  I know it's.
[00:17:07]  No, yeah, it's strong language, but I feel like, I mean, if you had asked me that five years ago, I would have, you know, I wasn't a dispensationalist even five years ago.
[00:17:18]  I was much more covenantal in my theology, but I would have probably said, okay, yeah, but, you know, dispensationalism, it's wrong, but it's, you know, it's in terms of theological triage, it's not a primary issue.
[00:17:31]  And so I'm not going to call it heresy.
[00:17:35]  But man, I feel like recently over the last few years, Just looking at the fruit, you know, like you can get a decent idea of how dangerous a particular ideology is or a particular doctrine in terms of what it drives people to do.
[00:17:50]  And right now, like what I see again and again and again is when pressed, when really, really pressed, it seems like not everybody, I'm not going to lump everybody into the same category, but there are a lot of guys who, if they have to choose, their highest devotion is to Israel.
[00:18:08]  Like the modern state of Israel, not the true Israel, certainly not Christ, who is the root, and those of us who have been grafted in.
[00:18:19]  It's not the true Israel of God.
[00:18:21]  It's this place in the Middle East with this particular people.
[00:18:25]  And yeah, it just seems like, where's your allegiance?
[00:18:30]  What is your devotion?
[00:18:33]  You know, blood and soil for thee, you know, for Israel, but not for any Western country.
[00:18:38]  Every Western country, you can't have borders, you have to have limitless immigration, you know.
[00:18:42]  Concocted and designed by your traitorous elites to be from the third world.
[00:18:50]  You can't have a people, you can't have a place.
[00:18:53]  It's, yeah.
[00:18:54]  And when I look at it like that, I would have told you, if you asked me even just a couple of years, I would say, oh, well, the battle is between Democrats and Republicans.

=== Freedom vs Idolatry (04:47) ===

[00:19:06]  And then I would have said, the neocons and this.
[00:19:08]  And now I look at the world and I'm like, nah, it seems like it really is a battle.
[00:19:15]  Between Christ and chaos.
[00:19:18]  It's a religious battle and it's a battle for civilization.
[00:19:22]  And it's a battle for are you allowed to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ, to have not just Jesus in your heart, right?
[00:19:30]  They're fine with that.
[00:19:31]  Our elites, our overlords, they're fine with a private faith.
[00:19:35]  But the idea of Christ in the public square, that it's not demos, the people, that's ultimately the God of a society, but it's theos.
[00:19:45]  Like, I'm a Christian theocrat.
[00:19:47]  I think theocracy is great.
[00:19:49]  It's not whether but which you're going to have a God.
[00:19:52]  I would like it to be the triune God.
[00:19:54]  And I don't know where you're at.
[00:19:57]  I don't want to get you in trouble.
[00:19:58]  But I personally, I'm of the persuasion, and I think we have this even in American history.
[00:20:04]  So I think it's not only Christian, but I think it's thoroughly historically American.
[00:20:09]  I don't believe we should allow for public expressions of blasphemy and idolatry.
[00:20:14]  So I don't think it's like the secret police rounding up Muslims in their home or mistreating people.
[00:20:19]  But no, there should not be Muslim prayer sirens in an American town.
[00:20:24]  I think that that's absurd.
[00:20:27]  I think that's an offense for us to cry, God bless America, as we promote public idolatry.
[00:20:34]  And even when I think of religious freedom, it's like, wait a second.
[00:20:39]  Number one, I don't think that's what the founders had in mind.
[00:20:41]  I think they're thinking of freedom of conscience for different denominations of our common Lord.
[00:20:48]  But I don't think they're thinking religious freedom for.
[00:20:51]  For Buddha and for Hinduism and for Islam and for atheism.
[00:20:56]  But then, number two, if that is what we're going to insist upon religious freedom being, that religious freedom is any religion, false religions, then religious freedom is a damnable offense.
[00:21:09]  Because what you're saying is that our nation should constitutionally protect not religious freedom, but idolatry freedom, freedom of idolatry.
[00:21:19]  No.
[00:21:21]  No.
[00:21:21]  So I'm at the point now where I feel like, yeah, if it's, and that's what I see from the dispensationalists, getting back to your question.
[00:21:29]  The Zionist is everything's it's everything is liberalism for all the West, whether it's European countries or whether it's America.
[00:21:38]  It's it's liberalism, and I've described it like this liberalism seems to be the car, and the engine is this full fledged, forced, total egalitarianism.
[00:21:49]  Everything, and it's not just you know men and women, like only men can be priests or pastors.
[00:21:53]  Everybody thinks egalitarianism is just men and women, but I mean all the way around that every individual has the same potential, you know, and everybody can be the same.
[00:22:01]  And all peoples are the same.
[00:22:02]  Haitians are the same, you know, and these people are the same, and these people are the same.
[00:22:06]  Egalitarianism all the way around.
[00:22:08]  And I feel like, I don't want to get you in trouble, but I feel like liberalism is, I'm coming to realize, I think liberalism is largely a Jewish project for the West, but it never applies to them.
[00:22:21]  When it comes to Israel, it's not liberalism, it's not all inclusive, it's not egalitarian.
[00:22:28]  When it comes to Israel, it's people, place, blood.
[00:22:32]  Soil, this religion, not other religions.
[00:22:36]  But then for the rest of the West, it's egalitarianism.
[00:22:39]  Well, don't be mean.
[00:22:40]  You know, like the orcs are at the door.
[00:22:42]  Well, don't be a racist.
[00:22:43]  Let them in.
[00:22:43]  You know, and it's like, I don't, yeah.
[00:22:46]  So at this point, I just feel like every dispensationalist I meet is, they have the same talking points as the guys who aren't Christian, guys who actually are, you know, practicing Jews.
[00:22:59]  And so I feel like there seems to be more in common at this point in terms of their plan for the world, their plan for America, their Their politics, their view of culture.
[00:23:09]  And so, at a certain point, when that's the fruit, I think it does get you wondering is this secondary?
[00:23:16]  Is this a secondary doctrine or is this another religion?
[00:23:20]  I'm kind of at the point where I feel like Judeo Christianity is another real religion, it's against Christ.
[00:23:29]  Thoughts?
[00:23:30]  Yeah, you put your finger on a lot of good points.
[00:23:33]  And I have a book coming out.
[00:23:34]  Hopefully, we can talk about it later.
[00:23:35]  Yeah, talk about it now.
[00:23:36]  We'll pull it up.
[00:23:38]  Yeah, let's show that image.
[00:23:39]  So, you got you guys talk about Christian nationalism, and that's that's kind of what I'm going for here.
[00:23:43]  But it's it's more rooted in the natural law, Augustinian, you know, Thomas Aquinas tradition of virtue ethics.

=== Judeo Christianity Debate (14:50) ===

[00:23:53]  And I open up the book and I say, Look, if you talk to like an American and you say, you know, do you think Jewish people in Israel like they should have uh Jewish customs, Jewish neighborhoods, Jewish laws, you know, favor?
[00:24:07]  Oh, yeah, yeah, that's that's cool, Israel.
[00:24:09]  That, yeah.
[00:24:10]  Israel's Jewish.
[00:24:11]  Okay, what about a Muslim country, Saudi Arabia, Jordan?
[00:24:14]  Should they have Muslim culture, Muslim schools, Muslim laws?
[00:24:19]  Yeah, that's cool.
[00:24:20]  And you say, a Christian majority nation, so they have Christian customs?
[00:24:23]  No, no, no, that's fascist.
[00:24:25]  You can't do that.
[00:24:27]  So, definitely with the Jews, but also with the Muslims, you have liberals in America saying, well, yeah, Muslim neighborhoods should have Sharia law, and Hindu neighborhoods should have these giant, weird false gods and deities, idols.
[00:24:41]  People talk like this, but as soon as you say, well, we should have a Christian culture and Christian norms, they freak out and they say it's fascist.
[00:24:51]  And that's lifting up the rock and seeing all the demonic bugs underneath.
[00:24:55]  That's what's going on here, right?
[00:24:57]  And so, you know, the separation of church and state, that's probably the blackest, most jagged pill in the book, Christian Patriot, because I'm really challenging Christians, whether you're Catholic or Protestant, Eastern Orthodox.
[00:25:10]  Let's go back and look at Thomas Jefferson as a man, his theology, his philosophy.
[00:25:16]  And it's pretty, Joel, it's pretty scandalous.
[00:25:19]  You look at his personal life.
[00:25:21]  By the way, separation of church and state, the wall, he calls it the wall separation of church and state, is in a letter that he wrote to Baptists.
[00:25:29]  Sorry, Joel, Baptist.
[00:25:32]  And he also published the Jeffersonian Bible, in which he was like a historical critical analysis.
[00:25:39]  He went through with a black highlighter and just marked out all these verses.
[00:25:44]  He explicitly rejected the divinity of Jesus.
[00:25:48]  Thomas Jefferson explicitly rejected the resurrection of Christ from the dead.
[00:25:52]  So Thomas Jefferson would be someone that we as Christians would look at as an apostate, heretic, liberal enemy.
[00:26:03]  Of the gospel, and yet we have all these people saying, Oh, Thomas Jefferson, I learned it in high school.
[00:26:09]  You know, we had all these bad things in the history of Christianity, and you know, there was Inquisition and Crusades, that was all so evil and unprovoked.
[00:26:18]  Thanks be to God, Thomas Jefferson, you know, like the Holy Ghost descended on him like a dove, and he was like, The separation of church and state, you know, that's literally the only thing you learn in social studies or civics in public school is you don't learn about the amendments or the constitution, you learn about the separation of church and state.
[00:26:35]  And that's how I opened the book.
[00:26:37]  And I want Christians to rethink are we really going to accept the Jeffersonian consensus if Christ isn't in return for the next 500 years?
[00:26:47]  Are we really committed to that?
[00:26:50]  And you look in the book, I also say in the 1950s after World War II, men came back from war, Europe, America, and they're like, man, that was rough.
[00:26:59]  So what we're going to do is we're going to have a gentleman's agreement.
[00:27:02]  All of your entrenched, firm beliefs, keep those in private.
[00:27:07]  And we're going to have a gentleman's agreement that we're all going to be just rational and prudent in the public square.
[00:27:13]  So don't bring, you already kind of said this, don't bring your Christianity out in public.
[00:27:16]  Keep it in your heart, keep it in your closet.
[00:27:19]  And we promise that we're all just going to be rational gentlemen.
[00:27:23]  And as soon as Christians took that deal, what happened?
[00:27:26]  It created an enormous vacuum in the universities, in the hospitals, in politics, in media, in film.
[00:27:34]  It created this huge vacuum.
[00:27:36]  And did they act in accordance with natural law and prudence and reason?
[00:27:41]  No.
[00:27:42]  No.
[00:27:42]  It's filled in with secular, a new secular religion.
[00:27:47]  Another religion, yeah.
[00:27:49]  They started building the structures in the universities, in the libraries, and eventually marching pride parades down Main Street.
[00:27:58]  They immediately filled that.
[00:27:59]  And here's their trick We're not a religion.
[00:28:02]  We're not a religion.
[00:28:04]  They have their own feast days.
[00:28:05]  They have their own saints.
[00:28:06]  They got George Floyd.
[00:28:08]  They got their martyrs.
[00:28:10]  They have their own inquisition.
[00:28:11]  They can cancel you, which is their equivalent of excommunication.
[00:28:13]  You can lose your job.
[00:28:14]  You can lose.
[00:28:16]  You can lose your bank account, they can freeze it.
[00:28:19]  They have a stranglehold on society.
[00:28:21]  And there's a lot of Christians from the silent generation, boomers, I'm Gen X, that are kind of like, well, we still have that commitment to just be Republicans, the Democrats will come to the table and we'll all just be fair, we'll be neutral.
[00:28:37]  And it's one of the things I learned when I was a Protestant Cornelius Van Til.
[00:28:42]  There is no neutrality.
[00:28:44]  There is no neutrality.
[00:28:46]  Everybody has their presuppositions.
[00:28:47]  And even if they say, I don't have a religion, They are operating from a form of religion.
[00:28:52]  And so, what we need to do as Christians is we have to say, no, we will be a Christian society.
[00:28:58]  We will impose a Christian society.
[00:29:02]  Now, that's kind of hard for people to see.
[00:29:04]  And I'm not saying, and in the book, I clarify, we're not going to force people to be baptized.
[00:29:08]  We're not going to coerce people to say, I believe in Jesus when they don't believe it.
[00:29:13]  All right.
[00:29:14]  We're not doing that.
[00:29:15]  But we are going to say, we are going to have blasphemy.
[00:29:18]  You should not say JC in a movie over and over and over.
[00:29:21]  It's not necessary.
[00:29:22]  You should not have soft porn or even full porn in movies, in the public display.
[00:29:28]  We should not be having parades down Main Street for degeneracy.
[00:29:33]  And so the book is really challenging Christians to say, what is culture?
[00:29:37]  What is society?
[00:29:38]  And you guys already know Socrates said it, Plato said it, Aristotle said it.
[00:29:42]  It's in the Old Testament, it's in the New Testament, John Adams said it.
[00:29:46]  A nation is the collection of families.
[00:29:49]  That's right.
[00:29:49]  That's it.
[00:29:50]  Family writ large.
[00:29:51]  Yes, it is a federation of families.
[00:29:56]  And if you came into my house, you would see a crucifix, right?
[00:30:01]  I'm a Catholic.
[00:30:02]  You might see a statue of Mary.
[00:30:03]  You might get mad about that.
[00:30:04]  You'd see a Bible.
[00:30:06]  You might see like an icon of John the Baptist.
[00:30:08]  And you would say, oh, this is a Catholic family.
[00:30:11]  And then we pray, we make the sign of the cross.
[00:30:13]  If someone came in my house and was like, no, no, no, you can't be Christian.
[00:30:16]  Take that cross down.
[00:30:17]  Don't pray in front of me.
[00:30:18]  I'd be like, get the heck out of my house.
[00:30:20]  Right.
[00:30:21]  Ask for me in my house, we serve the Lord.
[00:30:23]  This is a Christian home.
[00:30:24]  This is what we do in a Christian home.
[00:30:26]  And if they came in and said, well, we want to redefine.
[00:30:29]  The meaning of marriage for you and your wife, I'd be like, get the heck out of here.
[00:30:33]  And once we understand that a nation is a collection, a federation of families, we just take that same principle and we extrapolate it out to the nation.
[00:30:42]  Right.
[00:30:43]  So if we Christians can redefine, not redefine, go back to the original meaning of a country, a patria, a fatherland, and we understand it as a federation of families, and we as a family honor Jesus Christ.
[00:30:57]  Jesus Christ is first, he's the king of kings, he's the lord of lords.
[00:31:01]  He is the king of all society, whether you like it or not.
[00:31:05]  He is king.
[00:31:07]  We as Christians can impose and insist that we be treated as Christians and that our homes and our neighborhoods and our counties and our states and our nation are places of Christian decency.
[00:31:22]  Until we get to that, we will continue to be on our back heel.
[00:31:26]  We will continue to lose the culture war because you can't fight chaos without logos, and Jesus is the logos.
[00:31:33]  Until we accept that, and that goes for Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, until you shift that way of thinking and reject Thomas Jefferson, until you get there, you're not going to get it.
[00:31:45]  And then the Israel thing is basically that's Christians abandoning Christian society and going, pushing all their chips in on Israel society.
[00:31:56]  So you have the problem, you know, not only at home, but now you're building this other problem over there.
[00:32:01]  So we really have to get back to what does it mean to have a Christian patria, a fatherland.
[00:32:07]  And that's why I'm not using the word Christian nationalism.
[00:32:10]  And I want to challenge you guys as well.
[00:32:13]  Nationalism comes from natus, it means to be born.
[00:32:16]  That's not good enough.
[00:32:18]  Patria is the Latin word meaning fatherland.
[00:32:20]  And it's based on the commandment honor your father and mother.
[00:32:24]  Thomas Aquinas says, Patria is part of the virtue of justice.
[00:32:27]  It's honoring your father and mother.
[00:32:29]  Patria is the inheritance from your father.
[00:32:32]  You know, it's faith of our fathers.
[00:32:34]  It's, yes, it's land, but it's also blood.
[00:32:36]  And so in the book, I'm kind of saying, I'm suggesting to a Catholic audience and to a Protestant audience, Christian nationalism, it already has some baggage of it because it's too close to Nazi.
[00:32:47]  There's those arguments, but patriotism in the word patria relates to a much older Christian idea of what it means to be a citizen.
[00:32:58]  And it also links us to our father, pater, our genealogical fathers, but also God the Father.
[00:33:05]  So there's kind of a tighter theology.
[00:33:08]  I think it's more successful in a rhetorical combatant situation.
[00:33:13]  I think it also is easier to catechize people with.
[00:33:16]  So that's the book, Christian Patriot.
[00:33:18]  And it relates, of course, At home, but also to our Israel problem.
[00:33:23]  Cool.
[00:33:24]  Nathan, put it up real quick on the screen so they can see it.
[00:33:26]  Christian Patriot.
[00:33:29]  Here it is.
[00:33:30]  We've got a family, three kids are walking to church.
[00:33:34]  Like, that's it.
[00:33:35]  Like, if you can't convert, you have to convert your own heart and you have to convert your family.
[00:33:39]  Once we convert our families, then those are the Lego blocks by which we build a Christian nation.
[00:33:45]  That's the only way.
[00:33:46]  It has to be in that order.
[00:33:47]  Yeah, I think that's true.
[00:33:49]  I think that's also the reverse order is how they unbuilt the Lego blocks.
[00:33:54]  So, I think the whole time you're talking about the nation is just the family writ large.
[00:33:59]  I agree with that entirely.
[00:34:01]  The problem is so, like, a family can have new members, right?
[00:34:05]  It's like you sit down at the dinner table, right?
[00:34:08]  Our family have five children, and we'll see if the Lord gives us more.
[00:34:12]  But each time you're sitting down with mom and the kids, and you're like, guess what?
[00:34:19]  Telling the kids for the first time, you're going to have a baby brother.
[00:34:23]  Like, yeah.
[00:34:24]  Your three year olds, so excited about their sixth sibling coming.
[00:34:29]  Which is such a wonderful thing.
[00:34:31]  That's addition, right?
[00:34:33]  That's addition.
[00:34:35]  And you can even outside, like I was adopted, right?
[00:34:39]  So, adoption, the Bible has, there's a category for adoption.
[00:34:43]  But what do you do when the nation is the family writ large?
[00:34:47]  But what do you do when you've mixed all the families of the earth?
[00:34:51]  What do you do when it's not assimilation?
[00:34:53]  It's not adoption.
[00:34:54]  It's not like, hey, we have 300 million people and we're going to adopt 3 million, 1%.
[00:35:00]  You know, we're going to bring them in.
[00:35:02]  And over the course of three generations, it'll take about, you know, 60 to 100 years, but over the course of generations, they're going to be catechized into the Christian faith and into American culture.
[00:35:15]  And then, you know, three generations from now, our grandkids will be able to look at their grandkids that are not their grand, but their neighbors who are from this other country, their grandparents were, but they'll be able to say, hey, look, our grandparents fought in the same war.
[00:35:29]  We both celebrate Thanksgiving together.
[00:35:31]  We celebrate the Founding, we love the Lord Jesus Christ, we worship the triune God, we don't blaspheme him.
[00:35:37]  If anybody publicly blasphemes him, we both writhe in anger together.
[00:35:41]  That's great.
[00:35:43]  That's not what we have.
[00:35:45]  America is cooked.
[00:35:47]  We are so cooked.
[00:35:49]  Oh my goodness.
[00:35:51]  I'm post millennial, so I believe that we win, and I don't just believe we win in the bottom of the ninth.
[00:35:57]  I don't believe that Christ, who is head of the church, wins despite a weak losing church.
[00:36:02]  I think Christ, who is head of the church, wins through his body.
[00:36:06]  Gradually in human history throughout this gospel age.
[00:36:11]  So, I actually think that Christ will win through the church, not despite a weak church, but through a victorious church.
[00:36:18]  And that'll happen gradually mustard seed growing into an all earth encompassing tree, a little bit of leaven working its way through the whole batch of dough.
[00:36:26]  But that said, it's kind of like the stock market, right?
[00:36:29]  You look back 100 years and it's like, dude, who wouldn't play the stock market?
[00:36:32]  This is great.
[00:36:33]  It always goes up.
[00:36:34]  Okay.
[00:36:34]  But in a short frame, you're like, oh my goodness, we're getting wrecked.
[00:36:39]  And I feel like, like, right, like we've kind of, you know, it's, oh man, we've been in an eight year dip.
[00:36:44]  We've been in a 20, no, we've been in like a 350, 400 year dip.
[00:36:48]  Like, we've been in a heck of a dip.
[00:36:50]  And, and so my point is like, when I think of it, it's not just the neocons, it's not just the Democrats.
[00:36:55]  Like, I will never vote for a Democrat.
[00:36:57]  So I'm not, I don't want to like say that, oh, you know, Democrats are on the table now.
[00:37:01]  Like, no, those are problems.
[00:37:03]  But, but to me, like, when it comes, it's, it's a civilizational battle, it's religion and people.
[00:37:09]  It's faith and people.
[00:37:10]  It's people and faith.
[00:37:12]  And so I believe that's the beauty of the Christian religion.
[00:37:15]  It is a universal religion.
[00:37:16]  I believe every tribe, tongue, and nation will come to know the Lord Jesus Christ.
[00:37:23]  But until they do, when you're importing millions and millions of Indians who do not love Jesus, they are Hindus, they worship false gods.
[00:37:35]  And here's the thing so you're getting, you know, Patra, you know, a father.
[00:37:39]  They don't have the same father, they don't have God as their father.
[00:37:43]  In the spiritual sense, they also don't have George Washington or the founders.
[00:37:48]  They don't have the same human fathers, the same spiritual divine father.
[00:37:53]  And it's one thing if it's adoption.
[00:37:55]  You know what I mean?
[00:37:56]  Like there's a mom, there's a dad, there's four natural siblings, and we're adopting a fifth, and everyone's excited.
[00:38:01]  We're going to work together.
[00:38:02]  They're going to become a part of our family.
[00:38:04]  But when you start dumping in mass, I mean, in four years with Biden's administration, it was, and this is just the documented ones, like nine, 10 million.
[00:38:15]  Or 12 million, it was like three that were legal and nine that were illegal.
[00:38:19]  That doesn't even count the ones that are undocumented.
[00:38:20]  For all we know, we had an influx of like 20, maybe 30, maybe 40 million people.
[00:38:27]  So you're not talking 1%.
[00:38:28]  You're talking all of a sudden 10 plus percent of the total populace of a nation and imported that are not the same people.
[00:38:37]  They're not from the same family, not biologically, not in terms of human tradition, and also not the same faith.

=== Christian Nationalism Defined (15:42) ===

[00:38:44]  And so that's where I'm like, I look at that and I agree with everything that you're saying, although I. I'm fine with the term Christian national.
[00:38:52]  I do, I understand.
[00:38:54]  I think there's a prudence there.
[00:38:55]  I do think that it's, right, innocent as doves, shrewd as serpents.
[00:38:58]  So I think there's a good strategy there.
[00:39:00]  I can get behind the strategy, but I like Christian nationalism, Christian patriotism.
[00:39:05]  I can get behind that too.
[00:39:07]  But I look at our nation and I'm like, like we, the religious pluralism, the multiculturalism, the, you know, our principled pluralism of drag queen story out, all these kinds of things.
[00:39:23]  I feel like Cromwell would be maybe a better version, but I don't know.
[00:39:31]  Somebody's going to have to come in and get rid of a ton of people, like a ton of people for this to even happen.
[00:39:39]  Because otherwise, I think we're just doing it's still propositional nationhood.
[00:39:44]  So it's apple pie, Declaration of Independence, and also now we'll add the Apostles' Creed.
[00:39:52]  But you're not really a family.
[00:39:53]  You're not a family.
[00:39:55]  These are not my brothers.
[00:39:57]  If they truly convert to Christianity, they are my spiritual brothers.
[00:40:00]  But here's the irony like the diversity that we're going to have in heaven, there is diversity in heaven.
[00:40:05]  And in heaven, diversity actually is our strength because there's no crime statistics in heaven, right?
[00:40:09]  When we see him, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
[00:40:13]  So sin is done away.
[00:40:14]  So I don't care, you know, the color of my neighbors, you know, in heaven.
[00:40:18]  But here on earth, if we, the irony is if we're making every Western nation on the planet completely ethnically diverse, You actually, and if Jesus tarries, so they add that factor too.
[00:40:33]  If he tarries for, let's say, a thousand years, you're actually gonna have less diversity, not more, in heaven.
[00:40:39]  Every tribe, tongue, and nation, if we import the whole world here and we all end up speaking the same language and we all like.
[00:40:47]  So I think part of the beauty of the nations is not that some are Muslim and some are Haitian, they should all be Christian, but they should be distinct nations.
[00:40:54]  Christian America will be different than Christian Haiti and it'll be different than Christian Pakistan one day.
[00:41:02]  God, please do it.
[00:41:05]  But we've got to say, We're allowed to be a people.
[00:41:09]  We're allowed to have a country.
[00:41:11]  And so I guess I'll pose it as a question to you, though.
[00:41:14]  What do you do with this?
[00:41:15]  The family is the nation is the family writ large, fatherland, fatherhood.
[00:41:22]  What do you do?
[00:41:22]  Because I look at you said the Legos building, and I look at our country and I think it was the same order of those Legos, but in reverse.
[00:41:30]  So all of a sudden, 19th Amendment splitting the family, splitting the household vote.
[00:41:35]  Oh, no fault divorce, splitting the family.
[00:41:38]  Oh, mass immigration.
[00:41:40]  Right now, we're splitting the family writ large.
[00:41:42]  It was a destruction of the family, but there's a certain point where it's so far that it, man, what do you do to fix it?
[00:41:50]  What do you do?
[00:41:52]  I agree.
[00:41:53]  Everything, I mean, what you're saying there is like a whole chapter in Christian Patriot, the book.
[00:41:56]  I mean, you're splitting the Lego, you're continuing to break things down.
[00:42:01]  And I like how you kind of dipped in there to adoption and you said you're adopted.
[00:42:05]  That is, I think, part of that solution.
[00:42:09]  So if we talk about the family, you know, as the basis of a nation, Or a patria.
[00:42:16]  When a child is adopted, like, you know, let's say you adopt someone and they're from a different culture, and then that happens, and there's time for that.
[00:42:23]  It's not like, well, we're, let's say you adopted a child from India.
[00:42:27]  You're like, okay, honey, we need to go buy, you know, 30 idols, and we're going to set up the idols of Ganesh and Shiva and Vishnu and put them all around his bedroom, and we're going to give him the Vedas, and we're going to teach him to read the Vedas.
[00:42:41]  And when we pray at supper, you know, we're going to then pause and let him pray to his false gods.
[00:42:47]  That's not how adoption works, you know.
[00:42:49]  And this brings us all the way back, Joel, to covenant theology, right?
[00:42:53]  Covenant theology has the family basis to it.
[00:42:58]  And you know, you probably don't want to get into it, but this is also the debate about infant baptism.
[00:43:03]  When a baby is born into a home, is that baby Christian and is that baby raised Christian?
[00:43:09]  And as a Catholic, I would say absolutely yes, that the children of at least one believing parent, um, there's something that that is.
[00:43:19]  Makes sense for the parents and for the child.
[00:43:23]  And even people who do, you know, Baptists who do baby dedications, they're at least understanding that this child is being brought into the covenantal community.
[00:43:32]  They're brought into covenant with God.
[00:43:34]  It doesn't mean that they're once saved, always saved from that moment moving forward.
[00:43:38]  But it does show that when we have children, we have eight children.
[00:43:42]  I don't wait to find my last name is Marshall.
[00:43:45]  I don't wait till they're eight years old and say, Do you want to be a Marshall?
[00:43:47]  Do you want me to put that on your certificate?
[00:43:49]  Do you want to pray the Our Father with us?
[00:43:52]  Do you want to go to church with us?
[00:43:54]  You know, and I, you kind of said we've been kind of in a decline for 400 years.
[00:43:58]  And I would just challenge, as a Catholic, I would say, Don't you say the Reformation.
[00:44:03]  Don't you do it.
[00:44:05]  Don't you do it.
[00:44:07]  I fear it.
[00:44:07]  Part of it is, and this is actually, I'll say something maybe a little bit pejorative about Catholicism is Catholicism can be very structural and just sort of pull the handles on each sacrament at the right time and get saved.
[00:44:21]  And that's an abuse.
[00:44:22]  All right.
[00:44:22]  That's not what I would call authentic Catholicism.
[00:44:25]  Kind of going through the motions.
[00:44:26]  And that still exists.
[00:44:28]  Existed before the Reformation and people still do it to this day.
[00:44:33]  One of the things that the Reformation did though is it, in a way, fractured Christendom.
[00:44:38]  There was a synthesis, sometimes successful, sometimes not successful, of an integration of church and state.
[00:44:46]  And Christendom comes from the last part there is domus, house, household.
[00:44:50]  It's the Latin word for household.
[00:44:51]  So Christendom is the Christian domus, it's the Christian household.
[00:44:55]  And there is this sort of integration.
[00:44:58]  Again, just like in families, sometimes things are working and sometimes they're not.
[00:45:01]  That was a good synthesis there.
[00:45:03]  You had altar and throne, and there was accountability, church and state.
[00:45:09]  We could debate all day long about what is the optimal way to create that connection or to create some kind of integrity between the two.
[00:45:19]  But when you move Christianity so far that it becomes just about free will, voluntary acceptance, you actually do get to the point where it's like, I'm so removed and so worried about coercing even my own child.
[00:45:36]  That I'm not going to raise them Christian and let them decide when they grow up.
[00:45:40]  Like, that is the ultimate decision.
[00:45:44]  That's the bad boomer decision.
[00:45:45]  Like, right.
[00:45:46]  Well, I'm not going to take my kids to church.
[00:45:48]  You know, when they're 15, they'll decide, do I want to live the Ten Commandments and love Jesus or not?
[00:45:53]  Like, that mentality, which is a little bit more on the Anabaptist wing of.
[00:45:59]  Can I tell you something real quick that'll just disgust you?
[00:46:02]  You want to be angry for a moment?
[00:46:04]  It makes me angry too.
[00:46:06]  But there are some Baptist professors and Baptist seminaries.
[00:46:10]  Who will in their family worship will have their children who are younger and not yet baptized, they'll have each child take a turn praying out loud in family worship.
[00:46:20]  And the younger children who are not baptized, as soon as they're done praying, the father will say, The Lord did not hear you.
[00:46:28]  How do you feel about that?
[00:46:30]  Isn't that terrible?
[00:46:33]  Just, just, that's wicked.
[00:46:35]  I think, I think it's, that's wicked.
[00:46:37]  And that's kind of like going back to the adoption thing like, that's like someone adopting a kid.
[00:46:42]  And then every time you're at a family meeting, being like, you know, you're not really born in this family.
[00:46:46]  You don't really belong.
[00:46:47]  Like, that's a wicked thing.
[00:46:48]  Like, if you truly adopt them and give them your last name and they're living in a bedroom in your house with your last name, and they call you mom and dad and you hug them and kiss them before bed every night, just like you do the other children, that's a true integration into the family structure.
[00:47:05]  And so, like, when we talk about immigration and these things, we, to any extent that there is immigration, it has to be an integration.
[00:47:16]  With the faith.
[00:47:17]  And this kind of goes back to the Christian patriot.
[00:47:19]  Like, we're one reason why I don't like Christian nationalism, and I'll say Christian nationalism, but we live in America where if you bring your baby over the border and give birth, natus in Latin, the baby's a citizen.
[00:47:32]  Shouldn't be.
[00:47:33]  That's not good.
[00:47:34]  And we think of, well, I was born in this country, I'm an American citizen.
[00:47:40]  That's not the historic European understanding, it's not the Christian understanding.
[00:47:47]  What makes you is your father.
[00:47:49]  Right?
[00:47:50]  Your connection to the fatherland.
[00:47:54]  Right?
[00:47:54]  And I think that's as Christians, we really need to start emphasizing that the virtue of being a citizen is not built into I was born inside a certain geographic fence.
[00:48:07]  It's that I have inherited the patrimony.
[00:48:11]  There's the word pater again.
[00:48:13]  I am a patriot of this country, which means I'm honoring my father and mother.
[00:48:18]  That's the Lego block of civilization.
[00:48:20]  Therefore, I'm honoring my civilization.
[00:48:22]  So it's kind of like, Arrows going different ways.
[00:48:25]  I'm saying, hey, let's start pointing back to fatherland, patria, blood, faith, virtue.
[00:48:33]  And that, I think, is what creates those tight Lego blocks to build the society.
[00:48:38]  And we have to have this idea that we are a Christian society.
[00:48:42]  The more we move more towards the kind of Anabaptist understanding of, well, hey, everyone's just a volunteer agent.
[00:48:48]  Like, hey, do you want to join in on Christendom now that you're 15 or seven or whatever the age they pick?
[00:48:53]  No.
[00:48:54]  Like, my kids downstairs, they know they have been enrolled.
[00:48:58]  They are expected.
[00:49:00]  They go to church on Sunday.
[00:49:01]  We pray every night.
[00:49:02]  We pray before meals.
[00:49:03]  It's not like, well, dad, I'm kind of feeling like I'm going to opt out on that.
[00:49:06]  It's like, get in the van, bro.
[00:49:08]  You're going to church.
[00:49:09]  Right.
[00:49:09]  That's what we're doing.
[00:49:11]  Yeah.
[00:49:11]  Our church, just for the record, we're family integrated.
[00:49:13]  We don't do Christian childcare.
[00:49:15]  The children are there at church.
[00:49:17]  They're there for the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper, for the preaching, for the singing of psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, for the benediction.
[00:49:25]  We have a covenant renewal liturgy.
[00:49:27]  So we're liturgical.
[00:49:30]  So we have a prayer of confession of sin.
[00:49:31]  We have An assurance of Christ's pardon and forgiveness.
[00:49:35]  We have, we say, you know, recite the Apostles' Creed every single Sunday.
[00:49:39]  And we're doing it in a family integrated way.
[00:49:41]  So all the children are there.
[00:49:43]  In terms of when we apply the sacrament of baptism, you and I, you know, we'd have disagreements on that.
[00:49:49]  But even our children, for my household, for the Webb and household, I've gotten in a lot of trouble actually with Baptists because of the way that we value children.
[00:50:01]  And so, like with my children all the time, it's like, are we a Christian family?
[00:50:05]  Yes.
[00:50:06]  Am I a part of this Christian family?
[00:50:08]  Yes.
[00:50:10]  Am I Christian?
[00:50:12]  When my three year old asks that question, I say yes.
[00:50:16]  And Baptists will get mad.
[00:50:17]  I say, yes, you're Christian.
[00:50:20]  But then at the same time, I also teach my children, but I do believe there is a moment of regeneration.
[00:50:28]  And I believe, and what I've told our children is so I'm a Calvinist in terms of soteriology.
[00:50:34]  I don't agree with everything that Calvin ever said, although I certainly appreciate him probably more than you do.
[00:50:40]  But in my soteriology, I have a monergistic understanding of salvation.
[00:50:45]  And what I tell my children is I say, God, the fact that He predestinates the ends, we can never sever that from His predestinated means.
[00:50:54]  If God did not intend to save you, I don't believe He would have given you to me.
[00:50:58]  He could have given you to my Hindu neighbor.
[00:51:01]  He could have given you to my Pakistani neighbor.
[00:51:04]  I don't know where I live anymore.
[00:51:06]  Calcutta?
[00:51:08]  I don't know, man.
[00:51:08]  I go to the neighborhood pool and I'm like, about half are Pakistani.
[00:51:13]  Half are Muslims, you know, and the Ganges, yeah, wherever.
[00:51:16]  So, but my point is in terms of predestinated means not being severed from the ends, like even in the case of Jonah, right, you think of this like God works, you know, whether it's the Westminster Confession, any, you know, a lot of the confessions within Protestantism.
[00:51:30]  Yes, God can work, he can work outside of nature, but even as miracles are defined, it's God working above or without means.
[00:51:40]  But most of what God does is by way of providence.
[00:51:43]  So, even in the case of Jonah, he's thrown over a boat.
[00:51:47]  And God sends a bear to pick him up and care.
[00:51:50]  No, He sends a fish.
[00:51:52]  Well, what do fish do?
[00:51:54]  They swim, they have gills, they can breathe underwater, and they swallow things that fall into the sea.
[00:51:58]  Is it a miracle?
[00:51:59]  Yes.
[00:52:01]  But is it God's using means?
[00:52:05]  There's a few moments like Jesus walking on water, all right?
[00:52:08]  Resurrection from the dead.
[00:52:10]  And those are phenomenal things.
[00:52:13]  But God uses means.
[00:52:14]  And so too with our children.
[00:52:16]  I believe.
[00:52:17]  Absolutely.
[00:52:18]  And this is what gets me in trouble.
[00:52:19]  I believe that every single one of my children is Christian in the general sense and in the regenerative sense.
[00:52:27]  I believe it's simply a matter of when and not if.
[00:52:31]  I am 100% confident God will save my kids.
[00:52:35]  He gave them to me because one of the chief means of bringing about his predestinated means, of bringing about his predestinated ends, namely salvation, is Christian parenting.
[00:52:46]  You look out throughout all of 2,000 years of church history and 1,000, arguably 1,500, if we go back to Constantine.
[00:52:54]  Of Christendom.
[00:52:55]  And the chief means of proselytizing is Christian parents.
[00:53:00]  Christian parents, it's catechizing your children.
[00:53:03]  So we're like, we're going through, you know, we go through the Westminster Catechism and we're constantly reading the scripture and our children are taking turns praying.
[00:53:11]  All of our children, if they're able to talk, then they're praying.
[00:53:14]  And when they pray, I'm telling them as a father, the Lord heard your prayer.
[00:53:19]  Prayer is powerful and effective as the righteous man is working.
[00:53:23]  And then I'm also preaching the gospel to them trust in Jesus.
[00:53:27]  Trust in Jesus.
[00:53:28]  Don't hedge your bets.
[00:53:30]  Don't trust in yourself.
[00:53:32]  And some of the questions that children ask are just profound, you know, like because they're aware that we are in the middle of a battle for civilization in the temporal sense and an eternal spiritual battle, and that everything is ultimately stemming and hinging on that.
[00:53:50]  And so sometimes, you know, because my kids, they're kids, they're little.
[00:53:53]  And so it's like there's good guys and there's bad guys in every story.
[00:53:56]  And they're like, we're the good guys.
[00:53:57]  And I'll say, yes.
[00:54:00]  Because God makes us good.
[00:54:02]  He makes us good.
[00:54:02]  But also at the same time, we were once sinners and Christ died for us.
[00:54:08]  Very rarely will anyone die for a perfect man, but for a good man, someone might dare to possibly die.
[00:54:15]  But God showed his love for us in this that while we're yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[00:54:19]  And so the problem is sin.
[00:54:22]  And we have been bad guys in various capacities, but God made us good.

=== Good Guys and Bad Guys (02:12) ===

[00:54:27]  And our family, we are on a team as a family.
[00:54:30]  But each one of us has to believe.
[00:54:32]  In the Lord Jesus Christ, but this is for the family.
[00:54:35]  And so we use covenantal language and we talk about a family unit and all those things.
[00:54:40]  I remember one of my friends, he's Presbyterian, he said, Chalk Knox, his name's David Shannon, but he goes by Chalk Knox as his moniker.
[00:54:49]  But he said, If some jihadist came and broke down the door to your house and wanted, would he just kill you and your wife?
[00:54:59]  Or would he kill the children too?
[00:55:01]  Would he view you as a Christian family?
[00:55:03]  Would he want to uproot every single one of you?
[00:55:06]  It's like, no, he'd kill the children too.
[00:55:08]  He'd see every single one of us as a threat.
[00:55:12]  The jihadist, he would view my two year old as a Christian, whether I do or not.
[00:55:17]  He would view us as a threat, as an enemy.
[00:55:21]  And so I have that covenantal mindset.
[00:55:24]  But that said, I do want to ask you we got to go to a commercial break.
[00:55:28]  We were supposed to go 38 minutes ago, but it's a great conversation.
[00:55:31]  We got to go to a commercial break.
[00:55:32]  But when we come back, one of the things I want to ask you, because I like Christian nationalism, I like that it's edgy.
[00:55:38]  But I also think that it's specific.
[00:55:41]  And I do think that there is a Protestant advantage when it comes to nationalism.
[00:55:47]  And so I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the problems that I would have with Roman Catholicism is that it is so universal.
[00:55:57]  I believe the Christian faith is universal, but the unique expression of Roman Catholicism, I think that it's hard to maintain national identity, that there is actually a central.
[00:56:13]  Locale, Rome, for the world.
[00:56:16]  Whereas I think Protestants uniquely can say, no, Christian America, Christian Brazil, Christian China.
[00:56:27]  And so I would love to come back and talk about that nationalism piece with you, because I think of the scripture, all the families of the earth.
[00:56:35]  There are different families of the earth, and the nation is writ large.

=== Biblical Financial Stewardship (03:10) ===

[00:56:39]  And I think that Protestantism can play with that and work with that national distinction.
[00:56:47]  In a way that I think Catholicism is at a disadvantage.
[00:56:50]  And I'd love to hear your response.
[00:56:51]  So let's go to a commercial break, real quick, and we'll come right back with Dr. Taylor Marshall.
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[00:58:41]  Hello, brothers in Christ.
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[00:58:44]  Are you truly protecting and providing for your wife and children?
[00:58:47]  Not just in this life, but the one to come.
[00:58:51]  Here's a reality check only 45% of adults in America have life insurance, and of those, nearly two thirds are underinsured.
[00:59:00]  That's not good stewardship.
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=== Postmillennial Action Plan (15:25) ===

[00:59:50]  America is a country that was founded for the purpose of allowing Christians to do their duty before God and not to have their consciences ruled by the doctrines and commandments of men.
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[01:00:06]  Their commandments from God that we're supposed to obey.
[01:00:09]  Our goal is to find businesses and to buy them and to build them up.
[01:00:14]  We want to find manufacturing businesses and use them to make sure that we can maintain our capacity to do things here.
[01:00:20]  Reef Fund, Christian Capital, boldly deployed.
[01:00:27]  All right, we are back.
[01:00:28]  Dr. Taylor Marshall, thanks for joining us.
[01:00:30]  What do you think about the question that I posed right before the commercial break in regards to Catholicism and nationalism?
[01:00:39]  So, if I understand you correctly, you were saying that Protestantism is postured in a way that's more favorable to having a Christian nation.
[01:00:46]  Is that correct?
[01:00:48]  As a distinct nation.
[01:00:50]  Yes.
[01:00:51]  Yeah.
[01:00:52]  So I would gently push back on that.
[01:00:55]  And I would simply say, let's look at places where it's been implemented over a 2000 year period.
[01:01:03]  And you kind of said we've been in a dip for 300, 400 years.
[01:01:06]  I loved when you said that, right?
[01:01:07]  Because we look at, you know, let's look at the Enlightenment, 250.
[01:01:11]  Come on.
[01:01:12]  Yeah.
[01:01:13]  Okay.
[01:01:13]  Let's look at when you had Christian nations that were independent.
[01:01:18]  Autonomous, Armenia, France, Germany, Poland.
[01:01:26]  The Holy Roman Empire was dozens and dozens of little nations.
[01:01:32]  When did all of that actually exist for hundreds and hundreds of years, leading to a cultural consensus of a Christian civilization before the Reformation?
[01:01:43]  We lost the idea of Christian nationalism at the Reformation.
[01:01:48]  And where it was implemented or tried, like Geneva, Scotland, England, you know, pick a place, Northern Germany, it's failed miserably.
[01:01:57]  So I just would say, as a Catholic, and this is one reason I am a Catholic, is the Catholic Church pure?
[01:02:02]  Does it have, is it sinless?
[01:02:04]  No.
[01:02:05]  But there is a visible unity.
[01:02:07]  And if you look at what Catholicism has been in the past, is we do have a federation of Christian nations.
[01:02:15]  Sometimes they do squabble, sometimes they're in controversy with one another, but there is a fellowship and a family, just as we're talking about.
[01:02:24]  Families are the Lego building blocks of the nation.
[01:02:27]  The nations also become building blocks of Christendom.
[01:02:31]  And that's what we need.
[01:02:32]  And I have not seen Protestantism ever achieve that.
[01:02:35]  I have seen Catholicism achieve that.
[01:02:38]  So that would just be my, you know, it's a historical answer that honestly, the Protestant project of trying to build a Christian nation on Protestant principles, and I think the main problem is Protestant polity, whether you're talking about Congregationalism or Presbyterianism or Even a form of Episcopalianism like an Anglicanism, it doesn't have the gravitas and the authority to properly connect with the state.
[01:03:06]  Like, if you're PCA, what are you going to do?
[01:03:08]  Like, hey, the presbytery is going to get involved with Washington, D.C. Like, it just doesn't have the potency at the political level to actually achieve something like Christendom.
[01:03:21]  So, as a Catholic, I'm not just looking for Christian nationalism or Christian patriotism.
[01:03:27]  I'm actually going.
[01:03:28]  I'm looking for another level above that, which would be Christendom.
[01:03:32]  So you have family, Christian family, Christian nation, Christian domos, Christendom.
[01:03:38]  And Protestantism has never achieved that.
[01:03:41]  And I don't even know if they want to.
[01:03:45]  And I know you're post mill, so that's awesome.
[01:03:46]  But that's what you, as a post mill Protestant, should be looking for is not just a bunch of Christian nations, but a real federation of Christian nations called Christendom.
[01:03:59]  So I'd love your response on that.
[01:04:04]  You said you don't know if Protestantism has achieved it.
[01:04:07]  I guess my question would be what Catholic nations are currently achieving it?
[01:04:12]  Not that have achieved it, but right now, because if the Reformation was the problem, and I understand, and I've gone down this route, I think there were problems with the Reformation.
[01:04:21]  Like, to be frank, there is something powerful and like a glue that holds things together and secures things, provides a stability with the transcendence and objectivity of Catholicism.
[01:04:39]  This is my body, this is my blood.
[01:04:43]  There is something there.
[01:04:46]  And you look at the Enlightenment and you look at the Reformation, and there's a sense in which you could see both the Enlightenment and the Reformation as two sides of a singular coin.
[01:04:55]  The subjectivity and relativism that comes in with everything becoming merely a symbol.
[01:05:02]  Baptists, I think, are notoriously terrible when it comes to the Sacrament of the Supper.
[01:05:08]  They've gone beyond Calvin's view, they've gone beyond anything else to where it's a mere memorial.
[01:05:15]  It's simply A remembrance that there's no particular special presence of Christ, even with the sacrament, much less in the sacrament.
[01:05:26]  And so I understand the drawbacks of Protestantism.
[01:05:33]  I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more sympathetic Protestant than myself as I've been thinking about these things.
[01:05:40]  And Baptists are constantly telling me, oh, you know, but if we have Christian nationalism, they're going to drown us, you know, because we won't baptize our babies.
[01:05:48]  And I'm like, One, I don't think that'll happen.
[01:05:51]  Two, okay, let's look at it.
[01:05:55]  Because we have history.
[01:05:56]  We can go back and look.
[01:05:56]  Like, okay, 200 Baptists are drowned?
[01:06:00]  200 a day?
[01:06:01]  No.
[01:06:01]  200 a year?
[01:06:02]  No.
[01:06:03]  200.
[01:06:05]  And we murdered a million babies in their mother's wombs annually in one country.
[01:06:12]  What the hell are you talking about?
[01:06:15]  Oh, they might drown.
[01:06:16]  Like, a dozen Baptists might get drowned.
[01:06:18]  Even John Bunyan.
[01:06:19]  I love John Bunyan.
[01:06:20]  I love Pilgrim's Progress.
[01:06:21]  You probably like Pilgrim's Progress, at least elements of it.
[01:06:25]  And yet, at the same time, I can look at that and say, you know what?
[01:06:28]  The Christendom, and I've said this publicly, and I have no problem saying it again the Christendom that I'm fighting for, if it's achieved, I won't be allowed to do what I'm currently doing.
[01:06:44]  A guy like me who never finished seminary in Christendom, right now, like the reason why people listen to Joel Webbin is because.
[01:06:56]  We have no idea how bad it is out there, how bad things really are.
[01:07:01]  If Christendom, like Bunyan said this in Pilgrim's Project, if religion was walking in her glass slippers and well adorned and applauded by the masses, then there actually would be standards for who's a minister.
[01:07:17]  And also, there would probably be some standards for who's allowed to have a YouTube channel with 125,000 people tuning in and listening, and some credentials would be necessary.
[01:07:27]  And the Christendom that I'm fighting for, I recognize because people think it's a gotcha.
[01:07:31]  Like, well, you wouldn't even, like, correct.
[01:07:35]  I would rather, hey, Joel, we love you.
[01:07:39]  Thanks for being a top tart in the Lord's army, you know, during the dark ages.
[01:07:44]  But now that we've got things under control, that, you know, we don't need the retards, you know, running large accounts and teaching the masses anymore.
[01:07:52]  And we're going to have this guy who's versed in Greek and versed in Latin.
[01:07:55]  And, you know, and literally my response would be, I'm done.
[01:08:01]  Okay.
[01:08:02]  Thank you.
[01:08:03]  You can take it from here.
[01:08:04]  Like, I was running the baton, running like this, like Forrest Gump, you know, and now we've got like a world class, you know, trained Olympian taking it.
[01:08:11]  Praise God.
[01:08:12]  Praise God.
[01:08:13]  So, my point is, I recognize, like, even with John Bunyan, like, I look at that and I think, I love John Bunyan.
[01:08:20]  And yet, it's like, well, he was in prison.
[01:08:25]  He could have walked out of prison at any moment.
[01:08:27]  He just needed to get his papers, he needed to get his credentials, and he refused to do it, you know.
[01:08:33]  And so I look at that and I'm sitting here as a Baptist, you know, John Bunyan's our guy.
[01:08:37]  I mean, he's, The closest thing to an impressive Baptist that there's ever been.
[01:08:42]  And even with that, I can be sympathetic.
[01:08:45]  So, my point is, I feel like I can have this conversation at least somewhat more than most Baptists and more than a lot of Protestants.
[01:08:55]  And yet, I look at the world and I think I don't see any Protestant nations in the last 400 years that have really held on to Christendom.
[01:09:03]  I'm with you.
[01:09:04]  I don't see any Catholic ones that have either.
[01:09:07]  I feel like I can look at the Catholic nations and they're gay and retarded too.
[01:09:12]  Yeah.
[01:09:13]  No, it's kind of if we go back to the story of what is a nation, it's the family writ large, it's a collection of families.
[01:09:20]  I think what, you know, I'm a former Protestant, now a Catholic, you're a Protestant minister.
[01:09:25]  I think it kind of goes back to we had a major divorce in the family.
[01:09:31]  You know, we had a traumatic experience that has happened in the family.
[01:09:35]  So it's almost like if we were doing a show on what does it mean to be a Catholic dad and have a Catholic family.
[01:09:40]  And then we also like realize that, you know, there was a major divorce between mom and dad.
[01:09:45]  You know, there wasn't joint custody, and there's all these huge problems.
[01:09:49]  And they were like, Well, let's now debate what is a Christian family.
[01:09:52]  It's just got really complicated, and it gets really clouded and it gets really difficult.
[01:09:57]  I mean, I assume that when you baptize people, you baptize them in the canonical form I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
[01:10:03]  Yes, right?
[01:10:04]  Do you?
[01:10:04]  Yes.
[01:10:05]  Yeah.
[01:10:05]  So, as a Catholic, I recognize that as a valid baptism, it's conferring grace, it's conferring the character of baptism.
[01:10:13]  We accept those baptisms, but there's also a great tragedy in my own heart that.
[01:10:19]  Those baptisms are valid and they're good and they're true, but it's also kind of like you don't have the right papers, right?
[01:10:27]  Or the right credentials or the right, you know, like you're not properly licensed.
[01:10:31]  And so what we have here is we have kind of a broken family.
[01:10:34]  Like I can see something good over there, but I'm also like, man, we're not on the same team.
[01:10:40]  We don't have the same potency because we have so many free agents.
[01:10:44]  And Europe was reaching, there were some bad things before the Reformation, obviously, but we were reaching, I think, a moment in which we could have.
[01:10:52]  In God's providence, continue to extend those larger Lego blocks and incorporating more nations.
[01:10:59]  But we had this horrible tragedy in God's providence.
[01:11:02]  He allowed it.
[01:11:03]  And I think that was the unraveling of what we had as a Christendom.
[01:11:09]  Because what happened is, you know, Luther hooked up with the German princes and the English divines, you know, hooked up with Henry VIII and they had the Church of England.
[01:11:19]  And you kind of, even the Protestants themselves, you know, it's not like there was Protestantism and they kind of just continued in their own.
[01:11:26]  Thing they continued to also, you know, Zwingli versus Luther and they also started to drift.
[01:11:34]  And now we're 500 years later, and we've and it's not just that Protestantism has drifted from Catholicism, but the different Protestant groups have continued to drift.
[01:11:42]  So you have your mainline USA and Lutheran, and so now we're kind of in you know, we're floating around, and there's you know, all these pieces.
[01:11:52]  And that's one of the things you know, and as a Protestant, when I was a Protestant, thinking about it's like there needs to be a way in which.
[01:12:01]  We are the church.
[01:12:03]  Like Holy Mother, the church.
[01:12:06]  And I think part of this process of Christian nationalism, of Christian patriotism, is the only way that would ever work.
[01:12:13]  It would never work with multiple denominations.
[01:12:16]  There would be no authority with the state.
[01:12:18]  If they're like, well, the Baptists say this, and the Presbyterians are this, and the Lutherans and the Calvinists, it would not work.
[01:12:24]  You need to have something, a visible church with real authority.
[01:12:29]  Because otherwise, like you're talking about Paul Bunyan, like, well, he's credentialed by them, and they're credentialed by them, and they're credentialed by them.
[01:12:35]  This project.
[01:12:38]  When we are a visible church and kind of bring everything full circle.
[01:12:41]  The reason evangelicals love Israel and they want to send their money to Israel is I believe evangelicals, like all true Christians, long for the kingdom.
[01:12:54]  And they know it should be thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
[01:12:59]  As a Catholic, I think I have that more than you because I'm part of a universal church with a billion people.
[01:13:07]  They may not all be going to heaven, but I'm part of this visible thing.
[01:13:11]  I think these evangelicals are like, man, it'd be so cool to have a capital in Jerusalem and a temple, and that's our kingdom.
[01:13:18]  Jesus came preaching the kingdom.
[01:13:19]  And so I think they're longing.
[01:13:21]  It's almost like a short circuited way of saying, I want a visible church.
[01:13:25]  I want a sacramental system.
[01:13:27]  I want to be part of a visible thing.
[01:13:30]  And they choose the old covenant.
[01:13:33]  They choose the old covenant as the means for achieving that.
[01:13:36]  And that is dispensationalism.
[01:13:39]  That is dispensationalism.
[01:13:41]  I think those of us that reject dispensationalism and we're covenant minded, we have to work out the project.
[01:13:49]  If we're going to have Christian nationalism or Christian patriotism or Christian statehood, we have to figure out how those Christians, those baptized people, interface with the state.
[01:14:00]  And it can't just be having, well, on Monday we have a Baptist chaplain pray before Congress.
[01:14:04]  And on Tuesday we have the Lutheran.
[01:14:06]  And on Thursday we have the Wednesday.
[01:14:07]  It can't be that.
[01:14:08]  It has to actually be a structural thing.
[01:14:12]  A visible structural thing.
[01:14:13]  So, you know, as a Catholic, I realize we have our problems.
[01:14:18]  I wrote a book called Infiltration, a bestseller of massive problems in the Catholic Church.
[01:14:23]  I'm probably the most outspoken on problems in the Catholic Church.
[01:14:26]  But at least there is that.
[01:14:29]  There is the way to Christendom still.
[01:14:32]  It's just we had this huge divorce 500 years ago and we're still, you know, we're still struggling.
[01:14:38]  Okay.
[01:14:38]  So I hear your answer.
[01:14:41]  You're saying, well, Protestantism has not been able to achieve Christendom.
[01:14:44]  I said, yeah, but.
[01:14:45]  Catholics haven't done it either in the last four or 500 years.
[01:14:49]  And I hear you saying, well, Protestants haven't been able to achieve it because of Protestants, and Catholics haven't been able to achieve it in the last four or 500 years because of Protestants, because of the divorce.
[01:14:58]  It's made it impossible for either of us to achieve it.
[01:15:02]  Is that kind of basically your answer?
[01:15:05]  Yeah.
[01:15:05]  I mean, when you have large chunks of Christian nations that break off to a different religion, that makes it extremely difficult to do.

=== Failed Christendom Attempts (06:43) ===

[01:15:15]  But I would say, you had Franco in Spain.
[01:15:19]  Right.
[01:15:20]  They largely had a very Christian culture.
[01:15:22]  You know, abortion was illegal.
[01:15:24]  Even contraception was illegal in Franco, Spain.
[01:15:26]  Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien would argue about that.
[01:15:29]  And C.S. Lewis, with most of the other guys in England, you know, didn't like it because most of them were Protestant, Anglican at the time.
[01:15:35]  But J.R.R. Tolkien had a soft spot for Franco because he was a Catholic.
[01:15:40]  And he was like, well, they're raping and killing nuns, you know?
[01:15:43]  And so he was able to stand up.
[01:15:45]  Franco is probably kind of also probably Karl of Austria, the Austrian.
[01:15:50]  Austrian Hungarian Empire that went into the 1900s.
[01:15:54]  It's a Christian ethno state.
[01:15:57]  Poland, right now, still very much is.
[01:15:59]  I mean, Poland officially recognizes Christ as king.
[01:16:02]  It's a Catholic country.
[01:16:04]  I mean, it's not what it was.
[01:16:05]  You know, it's not what it was.
[01:16:07]  But I think even into it, it's not like Christendom as Catholic broke in 1517.
[01:16:14]  Up until World War I, which I call the war against Christian nations, that's what World War I was the dissolving of everything monarchy and Christian identity.
[01:16:24]  Up until World War I, it was still happening.
[01:16:26]  France, of course, had its bloody revolution, but I think it was still going on.
[01:16:30]  I think.
[01:16:31]  Really, after World War I and World War II, we are living in this post-very, deeply disgusting post-Christian era.
[01:16:39]  At the same time, we have Israel arising.
[01:16:43]  And I do think there is something apocalyptic.
[01:16:46]  I don't necessarily believe we're in the end times, but there is something apocalyptic, eschatological, ecclesiological happening in the last century.
[01:16:55]  And we've got to figure it out.
[01:16:58]  And we have to get back to what, not just Christian nationalism, but to Christendom.
[01:17:04]  It's thinking way bigger than the Christian state.
[01:17:06]  It's a federation of Christian states.
[01:17:08]  And there's a chapter in the book, Christian Patriot.
[01:17:11]  One of the chapters is We must do federal aid and we must do, you know, our interaction with what we do with our money and what we do in war and what we do with our allies.
[01:17:20]  It must be based on Christian identity.
[01:17:22]  Like we should be privileging Hungary and Poland over Ukraine and Israel.
[01:17:28]  Like that has to be the way we think.
[01:17:30]  And that kind of goes to this idea of Christendom and federations of Christian nations and alliances.
[01:17:36]  And that's the medieval idea.
[01:17:39]  Let me offer, I would say, one white pill, and it's early on, but there is a country right now, you could call it a Christian nationalist experiment, and it's El Salvador.
[01:17:48]  I just confirmed it.
[01:17:49]  They're about a 40 40 Catholic Protestant mix.
[01:17:52]  Now, it's early.
[01:17:53]  I mean, the reform, we're talking just about six years, but as far as crime, as far as approval rating for the president, and he doesn't really claim as far as a king.
[01:18:01]  As far as a king.
[01:18:02]  Essentially, yeah.
[01:18:03]  And he doesn't claim either one.
[01:18:04]  So he doesn't identify as Protestant or Catholic.
[01:18:06]  He says, I believe in God.
[01:18:07]  I believe Jesus Christ was his son.
[01:18:09]  So in the meantime, even if a type of reconciliation and maturation of the church, That's 500 years away.
[01:18:15]  I will say, practically, we at least see the early stages of something working.
[01:18:19]  The people are safe.
[01:18:20]  It's suffused with a Christian nature.
[01:18:22]  It has Christian laws, abortion being outlawed.
[01:18:24]  So, I don't think that is necessarily until something happens.
[01:18:28]  The hatch is shut.
[01:18:29]  We've got no hope.
[01:18:30]  We've got to do ecumenical counseling until then.
[01:18:32]  That's not ideal.
[01:18:33]  All three of us would agree that's not ideal.
[01:18:35]  It'd be nice to pick a lane, but that is a white pill in the sense that I'm just saying that let's take that win.
[01:18:42]  It's a W.
[01:18:43]  So, this is going to have to get sorted out in the providence of God.
[01:18:47]  The Protestant and Catholic divide.
[01:18:49]  But we shouldn't have the mindset of we can't even have the remnants of a Christian nation until that happens.
[01:18:58]  No, we can fight, I believe, for a Christian nation.
[01:19:02]  Or if we persecute one another if we get into power.
[01:19:03]  So it's like one gets in power, well, we've got to shut down the other or the other one.
[01:19:07]  You can, at some level, collaborate.
[01:19:09]  And chances are eventually they will end up on one side or the other.
[01:19:13]  That tension will probably not hold indefinitely.
[01:19:16]  But the fact that they were able to achieve.
[01:19:19]  For all intents and purposes, a Christian nation, even with that divide.
[01:19:23]  But I will say this one thing that El Salvador is united on is they are not Zionists.
[01:19:33]  I'll put it that way.
[01:19:34]  They are J Pilled to the max, and that includes Bukele, that includes his brother, that includes multiple political leaders and the Protestants there and the Catholics there.
[01:19:45]  They are dispensationalism is not faring well.
[01:19:49]  In El Salvador.
[01:19:51]  They are very much, and that's a big part, I think, of their vision.
[01:19:56]  Even like you think of what El Salvador is doing with Bitcoin and their currency, even that is they are trying to get away from centralized banks.
[01:20:04]  They're trying to get away from exorbitant forms of usury.
[01:20:08]  They're trying to get away from, yeah, they're trying to get away from Jewry in regards to the banking system and currency and those kinds of things.
[01:20:15]  So they, I feel like I'm cooking here.
[01:20:19]  When you think of like, if you let them cook, if you think of World War I, you think of World War II, because I'm with you, Dr. Taylor Marshall, I'm with you 100% on that.
[01:20:28]  The post war consensus is real.
[01:20:31]  And it's basically, you can't, you know, it's like, well, how come we can't have nice things?
[01:20:37]  Hitler, you know, like we can't have anything nice ever again.
[01:20:40]  You can't, sorry, you're not allowed to have a Christian nation.
[01:20:42]  Why?
[01:20:43]  Fascist, you know, you're not allowed to have a moral society.
[01:20:46]  Why?
[01:20:46]  Because it's totalitarian.
[01:20:49]  And the nations that it does seem like where there's some hope, I guess what I'm saying is I don't think it's accidental.
[01:20:56]  I don't view that as a coincidence.
[01:20:58]  I view that as maybe there's actually a necessary vital ingredient.
[01:21:02]  There, with El Salvador, that yes, there's the Christian peace, but there's not only the Christian peace.
[01:21:07]  There's also very much so the we are not beholden to Israel ingredient.
[01:21:15]  And I think that that portion of the formula is doing some heavy lifting.
[01:21:25]  I don't think the West is able to get back on the rails until we start to say, hey, you know what?
[01:21:35]  We're not beholden to Israel.
[01:21:38]  Until that happens, I think that we're in trouble.
[01:21:43]  One last thing that I want to say, and then we'll go ahead and end it.
[01:21:45]  But in terms of a Christian nation with it being Protestant, you bring up a fair point, and me and my Protestant colleagues who are pro Christian nationalism have thought about this.

=== Sin, Crime, and the State (05:29) ===

[01:21:59]  Are you familiar at all with Dr. Stephen Wolfe?
[01:22:02]  Yes.
[01:22:02]  Have you heard the name?
[01:22:04]  Okay.
[01:22:04]  Have you had the chance to read the book, The Case for Christian Nationalism?
[01:22:09]  I would say I've read through it.
[01:22:10]  I don't think I've read every page, but I'm familiar with the book.
[01:22:13]  I have.
[01:22:14]  So he argues, cool.
[01:22:16]  So he argues, and I agree with his vision.
[01:22:18]  I'm very much on that team for a pan Protestant Christian nationalism.
[01:22:23]  And so I'm with you.
[01:22:25]  I think Jefferson is terrible.
[01:22:27]  And I'm not of the persuasion that there absolutely has to be a separation of church and state.
[01:22:33]  But what Stephen Wolfe is trying to do is arguing around that in a way of saying that a separation of church and state.
[01:22:41]  In no way necessitates a separation of Christ and state.
[01:22:46]  The state still has to be Christian.
[01:22:48]  And so, even though, so a separation of church and state does not actually forbid a theocracy, it forbids an ecclesiocracy.
[01:22:57]  So, there's not a church run state.
[01:23:00]  The state is the state and it makes its own decisions.
[01:23:03]  And so, too, the church is the church.
[01:23:05]  That, like, even, you know, you think of, you know, like the Westminster Confession, the English version, the older version before it was more Americanized.
[01:23:15]  Said that the civil magistrate, the Christian prince, that he could call for church councils.
[01:23:22]  He could call for the church courts to convene and gather.
[01:23:28]  And that's what Constantine did.
[01:23:29]  And Constantine didn't make the decision.
[01:23:30]  I mean, he had his opinion, and I'm sure he was leaning a little bit, but ultimately he was just like, look, this is going to get settled.
[01:23:38]  You're going to meet together for as long as it takes, or I'll kill you.
[01:23:41]  And I think it's a pretty reasonable thing to do.
[01:23:45]  But he ultimately let the clergy hash it out.
[01:23:49]  And the church ended up making the decision, not Constantine.
[01:23:53]  And then he abided by it.
[01:23:54]  But he did have the authority, so he didn't have the authority to administer sacraments, right?
[01:23:58]  So the president of the United States can't come in, you know, the church, Protestant or Catholic, and, you know, and administer, you know, the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist or baptism.
[01:24:07]  But it's still, it's not, it's severed from the church, but it's not severed from Christ.
[01:24:14]  And so when I think of what a Christian nation like America could look like in a pan Protestant scheme, I think of our Ten Commandments.
[01:24:27]  The state is subservient to Christ.
[01:24:29]  Christ is above the church.
[01:24:30]  He's also above the state, the civil magistrate, Romans chapter 13, right?
[01:24:36]  He's God's deacon, diaconats.
[01:24:39]  He's a minister of God.
[01:24:42]  It is a divine appointment, it's a divine position, just like holy orders to the church, not just like, but both are divinely instituted.
[01:24:52]  And so the way I see it is you have all 10 commandments legislated.
[01:24:57]  Now, the first and the tenth.
[01:24:59]  You know, coveting, we don't have the coveting police.
[01:25:02]  Coveting is a sin.
[01:25:03]  It's not a crime.
[01:25:04]  So, when do you, when does the state get involved in punishing coveting?
[01:25:07]  Well, it's easy.
[01:25:08]  It's when coveting is unchecked by the individual through grace in such a way it goes unchecked so long that coveting becomes a breach of the sixth commandment or the seventh commandment or the eighth commandment.
[01:25:21]  Like coveting boils over into theft, it boils over into murder, it boils over into these other, you know, to adultery.
[01:25:28]  And now the state is involved.
[01:25:29]  I think the state, Adultery should be a punishable offense.
[01:25:32]  I think it should be both a sin and a crime.
[01:25:34]  Homosexuality should be a sin and a crime.
[01:25:38]  And with all crimes, it's not like Minority Report with Tom Cruise, you know, and you're trying to preemptively find, you know, crimes before they ever happen or going into someone's home, you know, and like breaking up.
[01:25:52]  But public displays of perversion, be it heterosexual or homosexual, that's a crime.
[01:25:58]  The sisters of perpetual virginity.
[01:26:01]  Jail, just immediately jail.
[01:26:05]  And so these are actually taught.
[01:26:08]  Idolatry.
[01:26:09]  Idolatry, exactly.
[01:26:10]  So now the first commandment, the first commandment, first table of the law, love for neighbors, two tables of the law, 10 commandments.
[01:26:17]  First table of the law pertaining to love not for neighbor, but for God.
[01:26:22]  The second table of the law can't hang in midair.
[01:26:24]  That's the problem that a lot of Protestants are like, let's just hang in midair.
[01:26:27]  No, it hinges on love for God.
[01:26:29]  Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.
[01:26:33]  You can't love your neighbor if you don't love the Lord your God.
[01:26:37]  St. Augustine, you know, with the order of Morris, you want to order all these other human loves.
[01:26:42]  First, you have to love God, and everything else is going to stem from that.
[01:26:46]  So, but like the second table of the law, the last commandment is a sin, coveting, but not a crime until it breaches into the others.
[01:26:53]  I would say with the first table of the Ten Commandments, the first, so it's like almost bookends.
[01:26:59]  The first one is a sin, but not a crime love the Lord your God, or have no other gods before me.
[01:27:04]  So, I might be loving my wife more than the Lord in my heart.
[01:27:09]  That's a sin, but it's not a crime.
[01:27:10]  So, when does the first commandment actually get punished by the state?
[01:27:13]  When it breaches into the second and the third and the fourth commandment.
[01:27:17]  So, it's when it becomes visible expressions of idolatry, when it becomes taking the Lord's name in vain, when it becomes.
[01:27:24]  In America, we had blue laws, we had Sabbath laws, we had blasphemy laws.

=== Religion or Race (15:53) ===

[01:27:28]  None of these things are foreign, none of these things are novel.
[01:27:31]  And so, I feel like if we could return, you know, and not just return because.
[01:27:38]  The past got us here.
[01:27:39]  So obviously, we need to make some changes, and I'm aware of that.
[01:27:42]  But I do think there's a way of having a Christian magistrate who is not Anglican, he's not Episcopalian, he's not Baptist, he's not Presbyterian, but he is distinctly Christian.
[01:27:54]  And so, what I would advocate for as a Protestant is that it intentionally would not be confessional, but it would be creedal by design.
[01:28:02]  So, it's Apostles' Creed, it's Nicene Creed, it's Athanasius.
[01:28:07]  And so, it's broad in that sense that every Christian can affirm it, but it's not so narrow that it becomes confessional, Westminster or.
[01:28:17]  Or the Belgic Confession or the 1689 or something like that.
[01:28:22]  So it's broad enough on purpose, but it's still distinctly Christian.
[01:28:27]  I think you could do that and it could work.
[01:28:31]  And then some nations will be Catholic nations.
[01:28:34]  That's their tradition, that's their history.
[01:28:36]  But when I look at America, it's yes, I have my religious convictions, biblical convictions as a Protestant, but then also just taking faith aside for a moment and historically looking in terms of me just being an American.
[01:28:50]  I feel like Catholicism is not American.
[01:28:54]  I feel like it is somewhat foreign.
[01:28:58]  That said, I can see Catholicism working in America a lot more than one other guy who we can both pick on because no one's representing it on the show today.
[01:29:07]  Eastern Orthodoxy, God bless him, but I like the way Tim Gordon says it.
[01:29:14]  He's a friend, and he says it's the Mr. Miyagi complex that, you know, with the Karate Kid, you got a little, you know, everybody's deracinated, you know, there's fatherlessness, you got this little white boy.
[01:29:25]  And his dad is absent, you know.
[01:29:26]  But thanks to our sacred democracy and diversity being our strength and immigration, you've got, you know, this old Asian man and he becomes a father to, you know, the little white kid whose dad is absent and starts teaching him virtue and work ethic and stuff.
[01:29:44]  And I look at Eastern Orthodoxy in America because it is on a massive upswing and it's undeniable.
[01:29:49]  But I don't think it has the staying power.
[01:29:51]  I think it could have staying power in Russia, you know, it could have staying power in places where it's historically rooted.
[01:29:57]  In America, I think it's very much directly related to fatherlessness.
[01:30:03]  It's like, here's this old Asian mystical kind of thing.
[01:30:07]  And it's like, here's all these young white boys who, you know, they're like, dad is absent.
[01:30:14]  I don't even know where I live anymore.
[01:30:16]  Everybody hates me.
[01:30:17]  And there's something old and tried and true.
[01:30:20]  And Mr. Miyagi is going to come and he's going to teach me wax on, wax off, you know, and essential oils for men.
[01:30:26]  Eastern Orthodoxy, you know, we're so back.
[01:30:28]  And, but my point is, that seems really foreign.
[01:30:32]  I don't think Eastern Orthodoxy is going to work as a cohesive for America at large.
[01:30:37]  You could have converts, you know, and it could, you know, wane and wax, but it's, I don't think that's going to be it.
[01:30:43]  Catholicism has more of a fighting chance, I think, because it is European and we came from Europe.
[01:30:50]  It's in England's past.
[01:30:52]  So it's not in the WASP, you know, Anglo Protestant culture, but it is in the Anglo culture very much in our history.
[01:30:59]  But, Protestantism, I feel like you would agree, Protestantism is the lion's share of America's origins.
[01:31:09]  And so, this pan Protestant idea that I just espoused, and then just the Protestant history being unique to America, what would you say as a Catholic in response to that?
[01:31:21]  Yeah, when you look at the 13 colonies and you look at the project of 1776, it is Protestant.
[01:31:27]  It's also Freemasonic.
[01:31:29]  That's another problem with it.
[01:31:30]  But, you know, I would say that.
[01:31:32]  Protestantism, you say Catholicism is foreign only if you start the movie at a certain point because you're a Reformed Baptist, that was at one point very foreign to Europe and Christianity.
[01:31:44]  You know, the experiment of Luther, that was also foreign, it wasn't part of the consensus.
[01:31:50]  So, as a Catholic, I see the movie starting 2000 years ago, it's running, I see new entities spinning out of it, you know, and then so when you say, Well, in this location, United States of America.
[01:32:03]  It was predominantly Protestant, but I just say, well, just look at the whole story of Western civilization.
[01:32:08]  Uh, we are still like the number one, like we, the Christendom, the theology, the tradition, the culture, the hospitals, the universities, everything that is part of the Catholic Christendom, uh, tradition.
[01:32:22]  And so, you know, I just think Protestants, because the way, and I was a Protestant, the way we're educated, it's even in the public schools, you know, is the beginning of freedom.
[01:32:35]  Beginning of everything good, the beginning of rights, it all was 1776.
[01:32:42]  So they look at the founding fathers like, as a Catholic now, I think of the church fathers.
[01:32:46]  Like the founding fathers had some good stuff.
[01:32:49]  But if you're starting the movie, you're starting the video in the 1700s, then yeah, you're going to be like, well, Protestants, you know, we're the deal.
[01:32:59]  You know, this is our place.
[01:33:01]  But, you know, that's one kind of A more small, narrow look at what it is.
[01:33:09]  And then you just look at America eventually began to incorporate places like Florida, Texas, California, New Mexico.
[01:33:19]  And that expansion brought in an enormous Catholic population.
[01:33:24]  So the origin, of course, is Protestant, Freemasonic.
[01:33:28]  But then as it grows and as it's growing now, I mean, Catholics are the biggest denomination, if you want to use that language.
[01:33:36]  And I think as The mainline Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, as they die off, I think Catholics will have the majority.
[01:33:48]  I think you're right, also.
[01:33:49]  And I think that's part of my concern.
[01:33:51]  And not just, again, from the religious category as a Protestant and being convicted in that direction, but also as an American.
[01:34:00]  You mentioned New Mexico and California.
[01:34:03]  You're right.
[01:34:04]  Catholicism is growing leaps and bounds in America.
[01:34:07]  And part of it is conversion.
[01:34:08]  I've looked at the statistics.
[01:34:11]  There are a lot of people returning to the church, and a lot of that is returning to the Catholic church and not necessarily Protestant churches.
[01:34:20]  Now, I like to think that part of that is because young men who are getting red pilled show up to the average Protestant church and they're talking about dispensational Zionism and their smoke machines and laser lights.
[01:34:31]  And it's Pastor Susan or Sally is preaching, and it's like, well, that's super gay.
[01:34:39]  I'm out.
[01:34:41]  I can just watch Prager U at home and shill for Israel that way.
[01:34:45]  I'm not doing this.
[01:34:47]  So, I think that's part of the return to Catholicism.
[01:34:49]  But I think part of it also is people feel deracinated.
[01:34:53]  They feel displaced.
[01:34:54]  They want something old.
[01:34:55]  They want something tried.
[01:34:56]  They want something true.
[01:34:57]  They want something that feels stable.
[01:34:59]  And it's quite the claim to be able to say, hey, a 2,000 year old church, right?
[01:35:04]  In the same city, in Rome.
[01:35:07]  Like, I mean, even R.C. Sproul, you know this, you were a Westminster grad.
[01:35:10]  R.C. Sproul had to tip the hat, you know, and say, like, you know, like, whether I like it or not, for 2,000 years, there has been a church, one church.
[01:35:19]  In Rome, and that is quite an impressive feat.
[01:35:22]  That said, what you were describing about New Mexico and California and different places, people converting to Catholicism, a bunch of young white men getting red pilled and going Catholic, fine.
[01:35:34]  I wish they were going Protestant, of course.
[01:35:36]  Of course, I wish that.
[01:35:37]  You're glad they're going Catholic.
[01:35:39]  Of course.
[01:35:40]  We both have our teams.
[01:35:42]  But that's one thing.
[01:35:44]  But I fear that part of the reason America is growing in its Catholic population is because of immigration.
[01:35:53]  Because they're importing in a bunch of people who are not American.
[01:35:58]  Like, so, like, oh, look, look, this is amazing.
[01:36:01]  Look how many Catholics we have.
[01:36:03]  Yeah, you mean all the brown people from South America?
[01:36:09]  They may be Catholic and praise God, praise God, but they're not American.
[01:36:15]  And so, part of my fear is that I sometimes struggle to think that my Catholic friends will have the same resolve.
[01:36:23]  Even though they're American, I sometimes worry that their particular religious devotion and allegiance to Catholicism, that very much is global and universal, will inhibit them to keep America America.
[01:36:38]  And that, yeah, America will end up Catholic and we'll all be eating soup with our hands.
[01:36:44]  And you know what I mean?
[01:36:46]  And my kids and their ethnicity will be a minority.
[01:36:53]  In a country that our founders, they told us who they were doing it for, for us and our posterity.
[01:36:59]  They weren't doing it for India.
[01:37:01]  And I hope that India is blessed by God and repents of worshiping false gods, becomes Christian, and thrives.
[01:37:09]  I don't hate India.
[01:37:10]  I don't hate brown people, black people, red and yellow, black and white.
[01:37:14]  They are precious in His sight.
[01:37:15]  Yes and amen.
[01:37:18]  But I don't want to lose America.
[01:37:19]  I don't want to lose my people.
[01:37:22]  And I sometimes worry that Catholics.
[01:37:26]  Like a guy like you, Taylor, that you, I know you love our country and I've seen you.
[01:37:32]  The reason I wanted to have you on the show is I disagree with you on Catholicism, but I've watched your political takes, your cultural takes, and I'm like, well, goodness gracious.
[01:37:41]  Like, because I'm looking at the Protestants who agree with me on soteriology and some of these things, but they, oh my goodness, like if people listen to their politics, we're done, you know?
[01:37:51]  So I'm like looking at you and I'm like, all right, I'm going to have to reach across the aisle here and play nice and be respectful.
[01:37:58]  And I want to be respectful regardless, but like you're saying good things.
[01:38:01]  But I do get scared that even a guy like you, who seems to love America, who looks like a heritage American, that your Catholicism, that tail might wag the dog in terms of national allegiance versus religious allegiance.
[01:38:24]  And that you might, you know, be like, hey, you know what?
[01:38:28]  Open the floodgates and boom, we got our Catholic America.
[01:38:32]  But we lost our ethnic America in the process.
[01:38:37]  And I think that matters.
[01:38:40]  I think it matters too.
[01:38:42]  I'm a Catholic and I'm against immigration.
[01:38:47]  So even if you said, man, all these Catholics coming over the border, they go to mass every Sunday, et cetera, and you have illegal, unbridled immigration, there is a net negative.
[01:38:59]  There's a problem there.
[01:39:01]  But at the same time, You know, when you're looking at priorities and political priorities, I talk to my Catholic friends in Europe and they're like, man, you should see Paris right now.
[01:39:11]  This is getting crazy.
[01:39:13]  You know, and you go to go in Rome and you see, you know, more and more gypsies and you see more and more Indians and they're saying, man, we're just being overtaken.
[01:39:20]  I at least, you know, over here in Texas, I say, well, at least ours are Catholic.
[01:39:26]  You know what I mean?
[01:39:27]  Like, I know you're saying, like, wag the tail, but I'm like, man, we're blessed.
[01:39:31]  You know, our illegal aliens, you know, they're committing crime and there's all these gangs and all that, but a lot of them at least are going to mass on Sunday.
[01:39:38]  It's not like Muslims, you know, bowing down in the streets of downtown Paris for their five, you know, times of prayer per day.
[01:39:46]  So, yeah, I am a little bit more softened on that as a Texan.
[01:39:49]  I'm against, you know, illegal immigration.
[01:39:52]  And I also understand there is the idea of a cultural, familial identity of American.
[01:40:02]  Obviously, I'm not a wasp, but part of the cool thing about Catholic history and tradition is the Pope never said, I want Germans to be French and French to be German, and I want French people to move over here and German people to move over here, and I want the Belgians to start going over the channel and living in England, and I want.
[01:40:25]  Belgian people to start eating English food and speaking English.
[01:40:30]  There was always the idea that each one of these nations is Christian.
[01:40:34]  They're baptized.
[01:40:35]  They go to church on Sunday.
[01:40:37]  They have their own archbishops, their own bishoprics, which, by the way, are geographical.
[01:40:42]  This is a very important thing in Catholicism.
[01:40:45]  Our structure, our hierarchy is built on the diocese and the parish.
[01:40:49]  So it's very geographical.
[01:40:51]  There was never the idea that it all had to be mixed up into one generic soup.
[01:40:56]  And that's actually really beautiful and something that we should try to attain.
[01:41:02]  Now that we have airplanes and boats and all that, it's going to be a lot more difficult moving forward.
[01:41:08]  And as a Catholic, and I think you would agree with this as well, my faith trumps my citizenship.
[01:41:15]  Like I would always go with faith over citizenship.
[01:41:18]  Right.
[01:41:21]  So, yeah.
[01:41:22]  So when I look at the immigrants, I'm like, at least our immigrants come from at least.
[01:41:28]  Three to five hundred years of a Christian culture, they believe in the Ten Commandments.
[01:41:34]  They may not act on it, they may be criminals, but at least they're coming from something that is Spanish Christianity, which is way better than a Somalian, you know, right somewhere in France and wants government support and is, you know, raping and killing and causing all kinds of problems.
[01:41:53]  I'm with you on that.
[01:41:54]  I appreciate that.
[01:41:55]  I get in trouble sometimes with, you know, some of our base is continuing to grow, people following us online, and there are guys to my left, there are guys to my right.
[01:42:03]  And guys to my right, you know, will sometimes be like, that's the gayest thing you've ever said, you know, Pastor, or like, you know, like, what an L, you know, because there are moments where when push comes to shove, yeah, religion over race.
[01:42:18]  Christ is Lord.
[01:42:20]  My allegiance to Christ trumps my allegiance to everyone else, to my wife, to my children, to my neighbor, to my country, to ethnicity, or whatever you want to call it.
[01:42:32]  I.
[01:42:33]  Yeah.
[01:42:35]  So I, yes, religion first.
[01:42:38]  But it does.
[01:42:38]  Yeah.
[01:42:39]  And one thing that I think's changed, you're Gen X, I presume.
[01:42:42]  No, I'm an old millennial.
[01:42:44]  I'm 39 with a lot of gray in my beard because I'm in controversies every week online.
[01:42:49]  So I'm Gen X. I'm noticing that our Gen Z and down more and more are a little bit more cynical and black pilled on America and preserving America.
[01:43:04]  I think for a lot of them, it's already lost.
[01:43:07]  Yeah.
[01:43:07]  And I think maybe more and more this issue will fade because they're living in such a cultural decay with OnlyFans and pornography and unrestricted immigration.

=== Gen Z Cynicism (03:13) ===

[01:43:22]  They can't buy a house and, you know, all of this kind of thing.
[01:43:26]  It's a bad situation.
[01:43:28]  Like they're entering into a tough landscape.
[01:43:32]  The conversation we're having, I think, will become over the next 10 years less interesting to that generation.
[01:43:38]  And I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
[01:43:39]  Do you think that's right?
[01:43:41]  What do you think, Wes?
[01:43:43]  You're the youngest guy.
[01:43:44]  Wes is 14.
[01:43:47]  I'm still a millennial, just on the newer end of things.
[01:43:51]  I do see, I agree with you, Dr. Marshall, that even young Catholics, I know there's definitely a cynicism about it.
[01:43:57]  And a lot of people will fall back to kind of the only identity that they can hold in it.
[01:44:01]  So they don't have the Americana.
[01:44:03]  They didn't grow up in the 90s when things were good.
[01:44:05]  And so they fall back on either religion or race.
[01:44:08]  So I do agree it's going to get reductionistic.
[01:44:10]  And yeah, I would agree.
[01:44:14]  Yeah, I think the conversation will get more intense, but narrower.
[01:44:19]  So I think it'll be, yeah, it'll be less of America and Thanksgiving and apple pie and all these different things.
[01:44:27]  It'll be European, white, Christian, and white.
[01:44:32]  Christian and white.
[01:44:32]  That's like you talk to a lot of Gen Z. Gen Z is alarmingly based.
[01:44:40]  They are like the things I have heard coming out of Gen Z Catholic young men.
[01:44:44]  My goodness.
[01:44:45]  No, you, I mean, you look at it and it's like, you know, the stats that just came out in terms of Trump's approval, it showed like 18 to 24 year old men, particularly white men.
[01:44:56]  And it was like, oh, look, look, Trump's approval rating has gone down, you know, by 42 points or whatever it was, 38 points with young, you know, young white men.
[01:45:05]  It's like, they're moving left.
[01:45:06]  And it's like, like, you look at the, like, no, they're to the right of Trump.
[01:45:11]  Trump is a lib for them.
[01:45:13]  They're like, Trump's a boomer.
[01:45:15]  Trump's a lib.
[01:45:16]  It's time to get serious.
[01:45:17]  So I don't think the conversation is going away, but I agree if you're saying that it'll become more reductionistic, more truncated.
[01:45:25]  Like what you said to me, when the Mexicans come over, we'll have less Americana, less WASP.
[01:45:33]  I think these young men and young women, some of them, that the Gen Z and down, they're like, who cares?
[01:45:38]  I can't, I just got replaced by an H1B one and I can't buy a house.
[01:45:43]  And every girl that I meet has been with 14 men.
[01:45:48]  I think for our age, like Gen X and above, like Americana, you know, like Bruce Springsteen, you know, Fourth of July, WASP, Founding Fathers, George Washington, I think that still kind of warms and stirs our hearts.
[01:46:03]  I think that generation and down, I think that conversation is going to just completely dry up.
[01:46:07]  I think they're much more in a survival mode.
[01:46:09]  And that's why, like, Wesley, you were saying, like, it becomes much more about race and religion because that identity, like, we were in the 90s, we remember it.
[01:46:20]  You know, we like lived in it.
[01:46:23]  They have heard about it and they've seen it on movies, but I don't think they've ever lived in it.
[01:46:27]  So, to appeal to them that you need to preserve it, I'm not so sure that it will resonate with them.
[01:46:31]  And I think the conversation is going to change over 10 years.

=== Theonomic vs Natural Law (02:19) ===

[01:46:35]  Yeah.
[01:46:36]  Well, this has been a fascinating conversation.
[01:46:39]  Dr. Marshall, we really appreciate your time, your willingness to come on.
[01:46:43]  Thank you so much.
[01:46:44]  Is there anything you want to leave our listeners with?
[01:46:46]  How can they follow you?
[01:46:47]  How can they check out what you're doing?
[01:46:49]  Nathan, let's show the book one more time so we can plug that.
[01:46:52]  Yep, there it is.
[01:46:52]  Christian Patriot comes out September 2nd.
[01:46:55]  Forwards written by Harrison Butker, the kicker for the Chiefs.
[01:46:58]  He got in a bunch of controversy.
[01:47:00]  Oh, yeah, yeah.
[01:47:01]  You know, women in the kitchen and the traditional family and everything.
[01:47:04]  That's so true.
[01:47:06]  So real for that.
[01:47:07]  Yeah, he's a great guy.
[01:47:08]  So, yeah, it's a manifesto on let's take back the nation.
[01:47:13]  First, we take back the culture, and we do that through marriage, family, Christian identity.
[01:47:19]  It's basically all the stuff y'all know as Christian nationalism, but I'm coming, you know, maybe from a more natural law, Augustinian, Thomas Aquinas, medieval approach to it.
[01:47:28]  So, you know, if you're interested in the same kind of content, but maybe a different angle, I think it'd be a great book.
[01:47:34]  You can pre order at Christianpatriot.com, and you can follow me on X, my name is.
[01:47:39]  Dr. Taylor Marshall.
[01:47:40]  And I have a YouTube channel, Dr. Taylor Marshall Podcast, and a website, taylormarshall.com.
[01:47:44]  So just type in my name.
[01:47:45]  You can probably find it all.
[01:47:47]  Awesome.
[01:47:47]  Well, thank you again.
[01:47:49]  And I'll leave you with this.
[01:47:50]  I'd love to have you again in the future if you're interested.
[01:47:52]  I'd love to get Dr. Stephen Wolf on here as well to have a conversation because I think that you would, I mean, you guys are going to, he's Protestant, he's Presbyterian.
[01:48:02]  You'll disagree on theological convictions.
[01:48:06]  But just for the record, he is a Thomist.
[01:48:09]  So I would encourage you if you, Ever get the chance to read the case for Christian nationalism?
[01:48:14]  I think you'll find a lot of similarities because he's not Vantillian.
[01:48:23]  He's not as much presuppositional or theonomic.
[01:48:25]  He's very, like, he is, if you follow him on Twitter, like over the last two years, he's just continually getting raked over the coals for his affinity with Aquinas.
[01:48:39]  So he is an Aquinas respecter, certainly.
[01:48:43]  And so I think you guys would have a lot in common and it'd be an interesting conversation.
[01:48:47]  That'd be great.
[01:48:48]  Yeah, let's do it.
[01:48:48]  Cool.
[01:48:48]  All right.
[01:48:49]  Thanks so much.
[01:48:50]  We appreciate it.
[01:48:51]  Thank you to the listener for tuning in, and we will see you again on Friday, Lord willing.