NXR Podcast - THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Classical Two-Kingdoms And The Intersection Of Church and State
Aired: 2025-08-16
Duration: 48:17


=== Natural Law and Scripture (08:57) ===

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[00:00:45]  All right, welcome back.
[00:00:46]  This is episode seven now in a 10 part series that we're doing on all things Christian nationalism.
[00:00:51]  And this may be for many of you the episode that you've been waiting for.
[00:00:55]  We're going to talk about a few things, three things in particular.
[00:00:57]  We're going to talk about natural law and how it relates to civil law.
[00:01:01]  We're also going to talk a little bit about kind of Kyperianism versus a classical two kingdom theology.
[00:01:08]  And I'll update the audience where I'm kind of at with that and give Stephen a chance to poke some holes.
[00:01:15]  If you can, and I think he'll be able to probably at least get us to think.
[00:01:20]  And then, lastly, drumroll please, we will talk about the Christian prince.
[00:01:25]  And so, I think this will be a great episode.
[00:01:27]  So, let's go ahead and dive in natural law, civil law, start the discussion.
[00:01:31]  Okay.
[00:01:33]  Yeah.
[00:01:33]  So, my view, which I take to be the classical Protestant view, is that civil law, also known as positive law, must be derived from the moral law of God.
[00:01:48]  And the moral law can be considered as the natural law, meaning that it's immutable, it's creational, it's universal, applied to all men.
[00:01:59]  But it's also revealed in scripture, summarized in the Ten Commandments.
[00:02:04]  But that's what I was going to say.
[00:02:05]  Part of the reason you never have bothered me with natural laws, the first time I had you on our show, it was like two years ago, right after you published the book.
[00:02:12]  And one of the questions I asked you, and I already kind of knew the answer, but I was just confirming, was, you know, because I had, Actually, done the reading.
[00:02:20]  I knew that the reformers, I knew Calvin, I'd read the institutes and those things.
[00:02:23]  And I knew that you had, you know, the classical reformed position.
[00:02:28]  And all the reformers, when they said natural law, natural law was synonymous with the Decalogue.
[00:02:35]  It wasn't just the second table of law, it wasn't just a natural instinct of common sense.
[00:02:40]  It includes that, but it wasn't merely reason and how we should treat our fellow man.
[00:02:45]  But for the reformers, they would have said that the Sabbath, Is a part of natural law that, um, um, yeah, the first through four, you know, the first table of the law, commandments one through four, uh, have no other gods before me, don't make any graven images, don't take the Lord's name in vain, and remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
[00:03:01]  That this is a part of natural law.
[00:03:03]  So when you talk about natural law, I knew that you were talking about it in the way that Calvin and others have, which doesn't really bother me because it's the Declan law, it is the moral law of God, yeah.
[00:03:12]  So that what this means then is this is why I use moral law, um, is then I can say that you can get at the moral law in principle via reason.
[00:03:22]  That doesn't mean it's always successful, but you can get at the same law through scripture.
[00:03:26]  So, one is by faith.
[00:03:28]  So, because God said so, right?
[00:03:30]  That's basically what faith is God says so, and God is true.
[00:03:33]  So, you believe it.
[00:03:34]  And the other one is through reason or proper thinking about it.
[00:03:40]  So, you get at the same thing.
[00:03:43]  So, in principle, you should be able to get to all 10 commandments by reason and, of course, by faith.
[00:03:51]  But what?
[00:03:51]  At the same thing.
[00:03:52]  So, what this means then is when What I mean is that the civil law, which is an explicit outward promulgated do this, don't do that, promulgated and enacted by a legitimate authority.
[00:04:06]  So it can't be an illegitimate person.
[00:04:07]  You can't stand up in the street and say, I'm the king and therefore do this because you're not a legitimate authority.
[00:04:13]  You then can derive that positive or civil law from reason and principle or from scripture or from both or whatever.
[00:04:22]  So you're thinking about what you ought to do.
[00:04:25]  In a particular situation, can be informed by those things.
[00:04:29]  And I think there have been in the past, in the Reformed tradition, they would affirm that.
[00:04:35]  I would say that's the broad consensus.
[00:04:38]  Now, whether you emphasize scripture or you emphasize reason or experience, that will change depending on who it is.
[00:04:45]  And they're all, this is not like liberal versus conservative.
[00:04:47]  This is just all orthodox guys.
[00:04:51]  So you can take like Richard Hooker would emphasize reason and experience a lot.
[00:04:55]  I think Calvin would emphasize scripture more.
[00:04:57]  But Calvin would still acknowledge that reason in principle can get you there.
[00:05:01]  In part, the irony is because of scripture.
[00:05:04]  That's Romans 1.
[00:05:06]  Romans 1 doesn't just say, it's really Romans 2 that gives the focus on.
[00:05:11]  Um, you know, like that, your own conscience within yourself, even as an unregenerate man, simply made in the image of God, you have a conscience, it's been, it's the images of God has been tarnished by sin, but it is still a vestige remains intact.
[00:05:23]  And because of that vestige of the image of God that remains intact, even for unregenerate man, Romans 2 talks about, you know, natural law, and it's very obvious, even to the non Christian, um, that there's a certain way of treating his neighbor, his fellow man.
[00:05:39]  But that's Romans 2.
[00:05:40]  But Romans 1.
[00:05:42]  Really has more of a focus on what we would consider to be the first table of the law.
[00:05:46]  That by nature, by what God has made, natural revelation, we know that God exists.
[00:05:53]  Not just that we should be kind to our fellow man, but we know there is a God, he exists, and we know not all, but some of his attributes have been clearly displayed, namely his eternal power and divine nature.
[00:06:04]  And we can reason from that that if there is a God and there is one God, not gods, but a God, then we shouldn't have any idols and other gods before him.
[00:06:15]  We also can reason from nature that this one God who does exist, that we shouldn't blaspheme him.
[00:06:24]  We shouldn't have other gods before him.
[00:06:26]  We also can reason by the light of nature that this one God who exists is the invisible God, and therefore images will always fail to accurately express him, and then therefore begin to represent other gods and idolatry.
[00:06:40]  Yeah, and actually, what you just said there, that was certain pagan philosophers came to that conclusion as well.
[00:06:45]  So, Pneuma.
[00:06:46]  Pythagoras.
[00:06:47]  So without being a Christian, the non Christian doesn't just innately recognize by virtue of his conscience that he shouldn't murder people, but he also can argue by the light of nature that he should worship God.
[00:07:01]  Now, there is, I guess, a qualification with that, though, because, and Calvin's very clear in this, in his, what would it be, second volume or second book of this, that our reasoning powers with regard to natural theology or to God, First table stuff is actually far weaker than our ability on second table stuff.
[00:07:24]  This is why Calvin would say that, like, they're as blind as moles when it comes to the true God.
[00:07:29]  Right.
[00:07:29]  But they're actually pretty decent at the second table duties.
[00:07:33]  That is the pagan philosophers.
[00:07:35]  He says that, and the reason he says that's not arbitrary, he takes us back, which is a, again, I'd say a classical distinction going to Augustine and earlier, that at the fall, man lost those.
[00:07:48]  I think the, the, Common word is obliterated, was obliterated those faculties or that ability to have acknowledged the higher truths of the first table.
[00:07:58]  And so that means you're driven down, instead of having a heavenly orientation, you're driven down to the things of the earth.
[00:08:03]  You create idols, various forms of, in the worst case, human child sacrifice.
[00:08:10]  And that's because within that, you're blind as moles.
[00:08:14]  Because that heavenly orientation, those faculties are gone.
[00:08:18]  But whereas what is retained, though diminished and weakened, Would be those faculties of your own earthly life.
[00:08:24]  And part of that is you just can walk around and experience, like, I don't like getting my stuff stolen.
[00:08:30]  And you can say, well, maybe there should be a law against theft.
[00:08:34]  And so the power to reason on the second table is actually stronger.
[00:08:37]  And that's the basis of reformed theologians and philosophers appealing to Plato and Aristotle and Cicero and Seneca and Xenophon on issues from home economy to ethics to politics, because those are all fundamentally earthly things.

=== Politics Deliberation on Circumstances (02:37) ===

[00:08:58]  And so from there, that's why they could appeal to that.
[00:09:00]  And that's also one reason why it's very common.
[00:09:03]  Calvin said it, of course, Hooker said it, other people said it, that.
[00:09:07]  You can take the common experience if you study the polities of the pagans.
[00:09:11]  There are obviously bad practices in there, usually associated with the religious side.
[00:09:16]  But in terms of the laws of governance and their thinking about laws, they can actually be very useful for thinking about politics and ethics in our own and even Christian societies.
[00:09:28]  Yeah.
[00:09:29]  So let's talk for a second and tell me if it's premature, but can we shift gears a little bit to two kingdoms?
[00:09:38]  Yeah, well, let me say one more thing about law, if I might, just because my own mind needs completeness here.
[00:09:43]  So, you can appeal to scripture for these laws.
[00:09:47]  And, see, yeah, I just want to emphasize that I don't care if it's a just law and you appeal to scripture.
[00:09:54]  That's perfectly fine.
[00:09:55]  I think it's totally grounded that that's.
[00:09:58]  Yeah, because God wrote a book and we can appeal to the book.
[00:10:01]  Right.
[00:10:01]  It's not just a book for God's people, but for all people.
[00:10:03]  Yeah, it's persuasive.
[00:10:05]  You can see it.
[00:10:05]  It says this.
[00:10:06]  The only thing I would say, though, is I don't think that scripture provides.
[00:10:10]  Provides a blueprint for the political system, or I'd say even the economic system, or the body of law you must have in every place.
[00:10:20]  So when you do politics, it's deliberation, it's in consideration of circumstances, the characteristics of the people.
[00:10:27]  Some people are not suited for democracy or republics.
[00:10:31]  Some people are more suited for a monarchy.
[00:10:35]  And that's all context dependent.
[00:10:37]  And the same thing with particular laws.
[00:10:39]  So the laws in one place could be different in another place because.
[00:10:44]  This law over here will be effective given their circumstances.
[00:10:47]  It won't be effective over here.
[00:10:48]  You need something else.
[00:10:49]  Like that's how politics is deliberate deliberation upon the circumstances.
[00:10:53]  You come to a decision, enact the law, and then promulgate it and enforce it.
[00:10:57]  Right.
[00:10:57]  So, for instance, if you had a society that never had cars before, and then all of a sudden they have cars, and nobody knows how to drive, and they're all really just learning on the go for the first time, you might have lower speed limits.
[00:11:09]  And we want to say that's an injustice because the max speed on their highways is 45 miles per hour, whereas in America it's 70 or 80.
[00:11:16]  Yeah.
[00:11:17]  We wouldn't say, like, this is a breach of the law, word of God.
[00:11:20]  Like, we'd say, no, this is.
[00:11:21]  Yeah, and actually, on my own street, we actually asked North Carolina to do a speed assessment because I'm on a country road where people go 70 miles an hour down my street.
[00:11:30]  And we're like, well, we want to put up a posted speed limit, bring it down to 45 because there's kids here.

=== Kingdom of Light Coordination (15:46) ===

[00:11:35]  Yeah.
[00:11:35]  And unfortunately, they didn't actually go for that, which speaks bad, I think, about the bureaucracy.
[00:11:41]  But it was contextual in the sense that, like, let's say that there weren't a bunch of families with a bunch of kids.
[00:11:45]  Yeah, it was just open field.
[00:11:47]  Yeah, open farm design.
[00:11:48]  Yeah, you might.
[00:11:49]  55 is fine, but now you have families with kids, circumstances have changed, and the kids you'd like to not have your kid run over.
[00:11:56]  And so you request to have a speed limit reduction because of the circumstances.
[00:12:00]  Yeah.
[00:12:01]  Okay.
[00:12:02]  Two kingdoms, are we ready?
[00:12:04]  Yeah, sure.
[00:12:05]  Okay.
[00:12:06]  So just, I know it's probably easier said than done, but, or in this case, hard to actually say, but can you give us just as concise as possible a brief synopsis of the classical two kingdom approach?
[00:12:21]  Yeah.
[00:12:22]  So we often say two kingdoms.
[00:12:24]  It's more precise to say twofold kingdom.
[00:12:27]  I'm okay with saying two kingdoms.
[00:12:29]  One king.
[00:12:29]  One king, basically one kingdom, but there's two modes of reign.
[00:12:34]  And so you can say two kingdoms.
[00:12:36]  One would be in which Christ rules the church directly.
[00:12:39]  Ministers are not magistrates in the sense that they can legislate their own laws, they follow the laws of Christ.
[00:12:46]  I'd say it's a, I'm a moderate divine order guy.
[00:12:48]  So it's a, the church is a sort of divine order instituted by Christ.
[00:12:53]  He's the king of the church immediately, and the ministers serve under him as emissaries or, Um, you know, ministers they administer the laws of Christ with regard to the quiz of context.
[00:13:05]  Um, and uh, but the other mode would be this would be civil, or you could say earthly, and that would be, um, I'd say mediated through civil magistrates.
[00:13:15]  And that would be, um, whereas the church appeals to the inward man, tries to persuade them of the truths found in scripture.
[00:13:22]  Um, the civil kingdom is interested in outward action, right?
[00:13:25]  So they can't legislate that you believe this or that.
[00:13:28]  Matters of the heart, yeah, matters of the heart.
[00:13:29]  They can't say, suddenly be scared or beef, you know, you can't.
[00:13:33]  Legislate emotions, but it's all like internal stuff.
[00:13:36]  But they can legislate the outward.
[00:13:37]  And so within the two kingdoms, there are, you could say, two swords sword of the spirit wielded by the minister.
[00:13:43]  And then you have the sword of the civil magistrate, which strikes the outward man only.
[00:13:48]  And so these are the two modes of reign.
[00:13:50]  And because in that second mode, when it comes to the civil kingdom, the common kingdom of the civil magistrate, because it's outward, it's concerned as behaviors, outward actions.
[00:14:02]  And not matters of the heart.
[00:14:04]  The way that I've worded it to people is even though the Decalogue should be in full view with the Christian prince, he doesn't actually have laws to mitigate the first or the 10th commandment.
[00:14:18]  I actually think that's interesting that within the Decalogue, you have two tables of the law, and it's both the first and the last.
[00:14:25]  So you have one commandment in each table, like bookends, that are actually regarding the heart.
[00:14:32]  Like images would be.
[00:14:34]  Visible, outward, external, you know, like it's something that's witnessable.
[00:14:39]  It requires an action of making an image and then hoisting it up in some public space, you know, that would actually, you know, deter worship of the true God.
[00:14:48]  Whereas the first commandment, have no other gods before me, in terms of not necessarily your actions, but in terms of your heart and your affections, there would be no way for the civil magistrate to actually regulate that.
[00:15:01]  And then, likewise, it's like, well, At what point or in what way does the civil magistrate in a Christian nation regulate the 10th commandment, thou shalt not covet?
[00:15:12]  Well, he does it in precisely all the ways that a breach of the 10th commandment becomes so robust that it spills over into a breach of the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth commandment.
[00:15:23]  That you're coveting without any restraint of the heart, and that's not punishable by the civil magistrate.
[00:15:28]  But if your covetousness becomes so great that it spills over into causing you to murder or causing you to steal, Then coveting actually is, in a sense, being punished by virtue, by proxy of punishing theft and punishing murder.
[00:15:43]  And that's what James says in the book of James.
[00:15:46]  He answers that question, he raises it, and then he answers it.
[00:15:50]  Why is it that you have factions and divisions among you?
[00:15:53]  Is it not because of your covetous desires within you?
[00:15:58]  You desire, but have not, so you murder.
[00:16:02]  And so coveting is punished, but only when it rises to the extent that it spills over into a breach of commandments.
[00:16:09]  So, commandment number 10 is punished by the civil magistrate when it causes you to breach commandments five through nine.
[00:16:15]  Likewise, commandment number one is punishable by the civil magistrate when that idolatry of the heart rises to the extent that it spills over into a breach of commandments two through four.
[00:16:25]  Does that, would you agree with that?
[00:16:26]  Yeah, no, I completely agree.
[00:16:28]  I think that both tables pertain to both of the ecclesial and the civil sphere.
[00:16:34]  But in different respects.
[00:16:35]  So, obviously, the outward would be the civil magistrate deals with the outward sins.
[00:16:39]  And this is why, even like polytheism can be suppressed, atheism can be suppressed.
[00:16:43]  If it's outwardly expressed, then it becomes outward.
[00:16:47]  You say, you know, there is no God.
[00:16:48]  And therefore, the civil magistrate can say, no, don't say that.
[00:16:52]  So, that would be, he's not trying to reform your heart because he can't.
[00:16:55]  He's not punishing you simply for the belief in it.
[00:16:58]  We'll get to this in the later episode.
[00:16:59]  But we're not punishing you just for the belief in itself, but for the external expression of it, which he deems harmful both to souls and to the body politic.
[00:17:09]  And likewise, or differently, that the church will say, okay, good, don't steal.
[00:17:16]  That's bad.
[00:17:16]  They'll say, don't steal, but they'll say, you know, for the eighth commandment, they'll say, okay, work hard.
[00:17:22]  But as you work hard, work hard in the Lord or work hard for the Lord.
[00:17:26]  So they're appealing to your heart so that your good work outwardly becomes completely good inwardly as well, because you can do all sorts of outward virtuous actions.
[00:17:36]  But in order for it to be an actually good work, It has to be both outwardly and inwardly transformed.
[00:17:42]  Romans 14.
[00:17:43]  Anything that does not proceed from faith is sin.
[00:17:45]  Right.
[00:17:46]  And that civil magistrate is not going to take that as something that's actually literally punishable.
[00:17:53]  But the minister in the house of God would say, he actually would appeal and even command and say, it's not enough to just simply do outwardly the right thing, but we want our works to be done in faith.
[00:18:06]  Right.
[00:18:07]  Without faith, Romans.
[00:18:10]  Hebrews chapter 11, without faith, it is impossible to please him.
[00:18:13]  And we want to be not just righteous in a conformity with our outward behaviors, but we actually want to be pleasing to God, which requires the heart.
[00:18:21]  Yeah.
[00:18:22]  And this is how the church and state together can coordinate in the sense that they are promoting in people to act in the complete goodness unto the Lord.
[00:18:35]  So outward, inward.
[00:18:38]  Now, I don't want to conflate.
[00:18:40]  Like the two kingdoms with church and state.
[00:18:42]  That's, I think, the era of the modern two kingdoms.
[00:18:44]  I think they kind of did that a little bit.
[00:18:45]  No, I wouldn't say.
[00:18:47]  Whereas Augustine did a better job, I think, with the city of man and city of God.
[00:18:51]  Yeah, no, I don't think they did that.
[00:18:54]  There is a sense in which the, I'd say the instituted church, as a Presbyterian, like Anglicans don't agree with this.
[00:19:00]  I don't want to get into that dispute, but there is a sense in which the visible instituted church is part of the spiritual kingdom of God.
[00:19:08]  But what I would say that the principal distinction is between, The elect, which is an inward reality, the church's people versus the church institute.
[00:19:16]  Yeah, no, I would say that the spiritual kingdom of Christ is fundamentally in the elect, which is known only by God because it's only visible to God who is true elect and who's not.
[00:19:28]  And so, the church as an institution functions to administer to those people.
[00:19:34]  So, they do word and sacrament for those people.
[00:19:37]  So, that institution is oriented to the people of God as the elect of God, the spiritual kingdom of Christ.
[00:19:43]  In that sense, The instituted church is part of, is the outward expression in a way of the more inward reality of the invisible kingdom of God.
[00:19:55]  And so, what this means then is that the civil kingdom, it deals with outward things.
[00:20:00]  I just don't think that the civil kingdom can enter into the church and tell the minister what to do and has command over the minister as a minister.
[00:20:09]  But the minister, as a fellow citizen, as a man, as in his capacity as a member of that society, is under the jurisdiction of the civil magistrate.
[00:20:19]  So, he can't tell you what to preach on, how to administer sacraments.
[00:20:23]  He can't, the civil magistrate can't himself preach the word as a minister or, um, You know, he can't preach the word as a, I guess, I guess you could be both, even though that's frowned upon, but yeah.
[00:20:33]  But the governor shouldn't administer the Lord's supper.
[00:20:36]  Right.
[00:20:36]  And likewise, the minister shouldn't hang anyone.
[00:20:41]  Right.
[00:20:41]  Yes.
[00:20:41]  Because, yeah, as a minister, he does not have the power of outward punishment.
[00:20:46]  I mean, there is the, there is church discipline, but that does not involve some sort of corporeal punishment.
[00:20:50]  It's not physical.
[00:20:51]  It's not physical.
[00:20:52]  That's just separation from the church.
[00:20:55]  So that would be the broadly to, what this allows you to do is to say that.
[00:21:03]  In the spiritual kingdom of Christ, in the invisible church, there is neither male nor female, Greek or Jew, you know, master servant, which is true.
[00:21:12]  There's a sort of equality that's been established in that realm among the elect, such that there is no, that gender doesn't play a part or your ethnicity doesn't play a part in your status with regard to salvation, justification.
[00:21:28]  You're human before God.
[00:21:29]  Yeah.
[00:21:29]  You, as a woman or a man, remain as an individual before God and you're saved.
[00:21:37]  Equally among that.
[00:21:38]  So even if you're a slave, you're just, you could be actually more pious and more righteous than your master because even though both of you are Christians in that kingdom of God, you can be first in the kingdom of God and be a no name slave because you do your work diligently to the Lord and your good works, even though they're unseen by man, they're only seen by the master and you're a slave, you could be first in the kingdom of God.
[00:22:06]  But because there is a distinction, there's a twofoldness, you have the civil kingdom where now The natural order of things remain as they are.
[00:22:14]  So you still have husband and wife, you still have master servant, you still have a civil magistrate.
[00:22:20]  Different nations and different ethnicities.
[00:22:22]  Yeah, and the principles of the hierarchy are not shaped by, like, the slave might be pious, but he's uneducated.
[00:22:29]  He could not lead anyone, but he might be first in the kingdom of God.
[00:22:32]  However, he's not fit to rule in a Christian society.
[00:22:35]  You need the civil magistrate who is, by his natural abilities, able to rule in that capacity.
[00:22:41]  So That distinction allows you.
[00:22:45]  This is why I think actually, like a sort of twofold kingdom theology, should be obvious to people.
[00:22:50]  Unless you want to homogenize and globalize and do all these other things, if you maintain a distinction between husband and wife and also maintain that you can be equally saved before God in the kingdom of Christ, then you are a type of twofold kingdom person.
[00:23:07]  If you distinguish between the civil sword and the spiritual sword, that is a type of twofold kingdom.
[00:23:12]  Right.
[00:23:13]  If there are principles of earthly life that you want to remain untouched because they're natural, and yet you affirm equality within the kingdom of God, that's a form of two kingdom theology.
[00:23:21]  So it is, I think it's fair to say it's a form to be technical.
[00:23:27]  So, what I would have said in the past and still largely agree with this is I would have said one king, two kingdoms, and three spheres.
[00:23:36]  And so, you know, a lot of the Kyperian types would say that, yeah, of course, there's a two fold nature.
[00:23:44]  They just weren't rooted in kingdoms.
[00:23:46]  They would root it in spheres.
[00:23:48]  And in that sense, you could even argue a threefold nature and instruments given, not just duties and roles, and then, of course, corresponding privileges and rights and authority, but then also tools.
[00:24:01]  So to the home has been given the rod, to the state has been given the sword, to the church has been given the keys.
[00:24:10]  And so, what I would have said in terms of the kingdom so one king, two kingdoms, three spheres, in regards to that two kingdom aspect, I would have said.
[00:24:18]  That it's not so much a divide between sacred and secular or sacred and common, but rather, and it's also certainly not a divide necessarily between church and state.
[00:24:29]  I would root that as being the distinction in spheres rather than kingdoms.
[00:24:33]  But what I would say, there is still two kingdoms of sorts one king, still sovereign, ruling above both of them, but two kingdoms in the sense of not sacred and common, but light and dark.
[00:24:46]  A kingdom of light, a kingdom of dark.
[00:24:48]  And I would say, That at some level, and I'm curious to hear your pushback to this because I'm sure it'll be helpful for me, but at some level, I would say that wherever you find righteousness, and especially wherever you find a Christian,
[00:25:04]  whether he's in the church institute, the visible church, or whether he's functioning in his role more broadly in the politic outside of the institute of the church, wherever you find a righteous man, a Christian man, You find, and wherever he acts in righteous ways, you find an advancement of the kingdom of light.
[00:25:27]  So, in other words, if you have a false teacher in the church, it's in the church in terms of spheres.
[00:25:34]  But if he's, you know, if you have Benny Hinn, you have an advancement of the kingdom of darkness, but in the sphere of the church.
[00:25:41]  If you have Constantine, you have an advancement of the kingdom of light, but within the sphere of the state.
[00:25:47]  And that's kind of been my thinking.
[00:25:48]  I'm sure there are certain flaws.
[00:25:50]  No, I say that's perfectly compatible.
[00:25:53]  With what I'm saying.
[00:25:54]  So, if you want to, like, the kingdom of light, I would agree with that in the sense that the twofoldness of the kingdom, there's proper coordination between church and state, I guess that's how I would say it.
[00:26:09]  Whereas, there's a coordination between spheres for the advancement of one particular kingdom, light.
[00:26:16]  Yeah.
[00:26:16]  I mean, even that, I don't have a real problem with.
[00:26:21]  The whole sphere thing, I think that would require a longer discussion on.
[00:26:25]  Exactly figuring out where the distinction or the differences are there.
[00:26:30]  I don't see how they're incompatible.
[00:26:31]  The idea of like three estates that's common within tradition.
[00:26:35]  So, excuse me.
[00:26:38]  I would say that if you want to talk about Kingdom of Light and Kingdom of Darkness, it would be the state or just the nation as such becoming a Christian nation.
[00:26:48]  And the principal role in that would be orienting people to the church, which would orient them principally to God, Kingdom of Light.
[00:26:57]  But I would say that would be.
[00:27:00]  I would say, in a way, that even the spiritual kingdom of God is coming to earth when the civil magistrates enact laws that would order people to the church and that are just and ultimately point them to the highest good.
[00:27:15]  So I would agree with that.
[00:27:17]  I would just frame it the way I approach it would be a little bit differently.

=== Reconciling Roman Catholicism (11:08) ===

[00:27:21]  I think that the state in earthly life is supreme, but it's subordinated to the highest good, which would be eternal life.
[00:27:32]  And so that means that its function is in a way to be, in one sense, to be under the church, not in the sense that the church is directing it or telling the magister what to do, but in the sense that his ultimate principal mission is eternal life for the people under his.
[00:27:51]  Right.
[00:27:51]  And I think the reason why it appeals to me, what I just expressed this one king, two kingdoms, and three spheres, and the distinction of the kingdoms being light and dark rather than sacred and common.
[00:28:03]  Part of the reason it appeals to me is because within the invisible and visible church scheme, it's not just individual people that you could be administering the Lord's Supper and baptism to someone who, in the final analysis, proves to be an apostate.
[00:28:25]  It's not just that that is possible.
[00:28:28]  We know that's possible from scripture and experience.
[00:28:32]  But it's also feasible that.
[00:28:34]  That you cannot just have a true church that is made up of a majority of people who actually belong to the invisible church.
[00:28:42]  They're truly regenerate, they're truly God's elect, but with isolated individual instances of people who are unregenerate and apostates and who are given the sacraments because by all visible appearances it was the right thing to do.
[00:28:56]  But on the final day, there's this Lord, Lord, did we not this and that and the other?
[00:29:03]  Depart from me, I never knew you.
[00:29:05]  But in my mind, it's feasible that, not just at an individual person level, but in terms of whole entities, like you could have a false church.
[00:29:16]  The whole church is false.
[00:29:18]  Whereas I would still say that it's still a part of the church institute.
[00:29:23]  So, but part of this, for me, it's a way of reconciling, for instance, you know, it's a way of reconciling Roman Catholicism.
[00:29:31]  It's a way of, like, my desire, I'll just put my cards on the table.
[00:29:35]  My not only desire, but as a post mill guy, my prediction.
[00:29:40]  Is I don't think that the Roman church will utterly fail and be eradicated.
[00:29:47]  I think the end game, if I was to guess at the mind of God, is that the Roman church would repent, that they would undo Trent.
[00:29:58]  I don't want to see the Roman church fail, actually.
[00:30:01]  I want to see the Roman church come back into the fold, you know, almost like a Romans 11, you know, Jew and Gentile thing, but with.
[00:30:10]  Papists and Protestants, I would like to see them, you know, if I could use these terms in some sense, the natural branches grafted back in to the root that is Christ and not be replaced, but be repentant.
[00:30:23]  And so for me, it gives me a grid, a frame of including both, you know, the EO, Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism within the church institute at large, while also recognizing that it's not just isolated individual people, but as a whole church, that it that an argument can be made, and I'm not saying for each and every individual.
[00:30:47]  Like, I understand that there are some Catholic priests that really are sound a lot more Protestant in terms of their conception of soteriology and salvation by grace.
[00:30:56]  But on the whole, I could say that the Roman Catholic Church is not a true church.
[00:31:04]  And yet, I could say, but it is truly a part of the institute of the church.
[00:31:09]  And I'm very hopeful for their inclusion.
[00:31:13]  Yeah.
[00:31:13]  I mean, that was, I mean, you're Formers thought something along those lines.
[00:31:16]  It's tricky to say something's a false church and yet also part of the broad, you know, woe see Catholic church.
[00:31:25]  Right.
[00:31:27]  Yeah.
[00:31:27]  But that's where I'm at.
[00:31:28]  And it's funny, you know, the Reformation in some sense seems like the, it's not entirely like a counter movement and separate.
[00:31:38]  In some ways, it seems like just the other side of a singular coin of the Enlightenment that I'm reformed.
[00:31:47]  So I love the Reformation.
[00:31:49]  We celebrate Martin Luther, you know, and we do the whole thing.
[00:31:54]  And I have no apologies or shame.
[00:31:57]  But I do sometimes feel a sense of, Curiosity and borderline regret, and wondering, like, could they have fought harder?
[00:32:07]  You know, like, could, like, because I look at it and I'm like, who's they?
[00:32:12]  The reformers and trying to reform the Catholic Church.
[00:32:14]  I see, I see.
[00:32:15]  Like, because there's a certain sense, you know, like we've used this expression before, but like the toothpaste is very hard to go back in the tube.
[00:32:20]  And the Reformation, in some sense, seems like Pandora's box.
[00:32:23]  Like, Catholicism is easier.
[00:32:25]  I know I understand all, I'm Protestant for a reason.
[00:32:29]  I understand the failures and the risk.
[00:32:32]  But um, there was a certain way of viewing the world, like things were more objective, the subjectivity of Protestant theology.
[00:32:41]  Um, it's like well yeah, we don't like the pope, but then everybody becomes their own individual pope, you know, and sola scriptura, which I adhere to and and I love at the same time.
[00:32:50]  It's like, like you know, it's not like um, you know, doctrines of man versus the Bible.
[00:32:56]  That's a false dichotomy.
[00:32:57]  Um, everybody's confessional.
[00:32:59]  It's either a confession that's tried and true, you know, and and written by better men, or it's the confession that you're subconsciously writing in your own head as you go along.
[00:33:07]  But everybody has, there's no such thing as an interpretation of Scripture and then just the Bible alone.
[00:33:12]  Everybody's interpreting Scripture.
[00:33:13]  So it's really just whose interpretation is it going to be?
[00:33:16]  And in the Protestant scheme, the answer is very often who gets to interpret the Bible?
[00:33:21]  The peanut gallery.
[00:33:23]  And the interpretations really suck.
[00:33:25]  And you have millions of them instead of one.
[00:33:28]  And so all that being said, I think the Reformation followed the Enlightenment in some sense that it really did give way.
[00:33:36]  It gave theological explanatory power for accepting.
[00:33:40]  Relativism and subjectivity.
[00:33:42]  Whereas, you know, Catholicism was very much in line with the thinking of the day and the philosophy of the day.
[00:33:49]  It followed that, that like faith was objective.
[00:33:52]  Like you can look and touch and see, and these things are objectively true.
[00:33:57]  And there's benchmarks and a clear path that can, you know, anybody could follow.
[00:34:02]  Whereas, you know, one of the dangers of, you know, the reformers, some, but it really, you know, showed its head with the Puritans was the navel gazing and, and, um, An overly personal, not just subjectivity, but personal, constant evaluation to where a lot of the Puritans had virtually no assurance of it.
[00:34:31]  Like they were constantly, he loves me, he loves me not, he loves me, he loves me.
[00:34:34]  And there was nothing objective to lay hold to to know.
[00:34:36]  It was just my heart, and my heart is constantly fickle.
[00:34:39]  Do I really mean it?
[00:34:40]  Do I really believe it?
[00:34:42]  And Catholicism is easier in so many senses.
[00:34:46]  And I know that it's gone too far and it's deeply flawed, but I miss the old world that I was never even a part of, but I've read about it.
[00:34:59]  And I see the appeal of these things touch, see, smell, even incense, and all that.
[00:35:07]  Yeah, I think it's objective.
[00:35:08]  Yeah, I think this is where the Federal Vision guys tried to recover high objectivity.
[00:35:14]  I think it created a lot of incoherence.
[00:35:17]  I know.
[00:35:18]  Yeah, because I look at them and I think you're like, Invisible, Invisible Church, I think was doing just fine.
[00:35:23]  Like, why do we, you know?
[00:35:25]  Yeah.
[00:35:26]  I mean, I guess this goes back to that there are downsides to anything that is true.
[00:35:32]  I would say that, I mean, I could go on for a long time talking about all the problems with Roman Catholicism, but I don't think it was actually as clear and objective as people thought.
[00:35:47]  It was rooted in a tremendous amount of ignorance of the average person.
[00:35:51]  A lot of people had no idea what they were doing.
[00:35:53]  There was a lot of superstition.
[00:35:55]  There was a lot of.
[00:35:56]  The claims of the papacy allow the meddling of the papacy into political matters that cause a tremendous amount of um strife, conflict, and war.
[00:36:08]  There are claims of multiple uh popes at various times, so I don't um so I don't think that it's uh it's kind of as rosy as uh as it seems.
[00:36:18]  And there's also, I mean, you if you want to remove the perversions, when I say rosy, I don't mean uh without perversions and without faults, I i mean uh rosy not in the sense of true or pure, I mean um.
[00:36:31]  There was a rosy element in terms of simplicity.
[00:36:34]  Yeah, if you have someone who claims to be able to mediate truth to you, and this is it, or you're a heretic, then yeah, that becomes easier.
[00:36:43]  But there's other options.
[00:36:44]  You could become different.
[00:36:46]  You could have something that's simple and bad.
[00:36:47]  You can become Mormon.
[00:36:48]  Mormons have a similar thing as well.
[00:36:50]  Right.
[00:36:51]  I think ultimately it comes down to whether or not the Roman Catholic claim for itself is true.
[00:36:57]  And I think there's a lot of reasons to reject that.
[00:37:01]  So do I.
[00:37:01]  So, yeah, we could, if simplicity was our.
[00:37:05]  Our principle, even then, I think we have problems of who to choose for who's the source.
[00:37:10]  But truth kind of matters.
[00:37:12]  Yeah.
[00:37:12]  Even if it's complicated.
[00:37:14]  Simplicity isn't the only ideal.
[00:37:16]  Yeah.
[00:37:16]  I mean, even if I, yeah, I'd also, on the Enlightenment, I'd say that actually the Roman, that it was the reformed guys who were in the early 17th century, or yeah, early 17th and late 16th, who were very conservative.
[00:37:35]  They were the Aristotelian realists and Thomists.
[00:37:39]  Whereas the Roman Catholics were often very nominalist and occubist.
[00:37:43]  So you have like Descartes, a central figure in modern philosophy, was a Roman Catholic and actually a defender of the Roman Catholic Church.
[00:37:51]  And part of his philosophy, people argue, was trying to defend the Roman Catholic claims for itself over against the claims of reason and Aristotelian philosophy of the Reformed.
[00:38:04]  So I don't think, even though you can identify Locke and these other guys as being Protestants, I don't think Roman Catholics, their narrative they give themselves.
[00:38:13]  Is that it's nominalism from Occam and then Luther, who was nominalist, and then that took the West down when actually it was many Roman Catholics were nominalists, including central figures of the Enlightenment being Roman Catholics, such as Descartes.

=== Trump as Historical Event (04:50) ===

[00:38:29]  So, I don't know, that's a long discussion, but.
[00:38:32]  Well, I think that at least whets people's appetite.
[00:38:35]  Let's shift now, though, and let's at least begin the conversation surrounding the Christian prince.
[00:38:40]  The prince, yeah.
[00:38:41]  And I have a feeling, if I had to guess, that.
[00:38:44]  In about seven minutes or so, I'll be saying, and this is going to be a two parter.
[00:38:48]  Yeah.
[00:38:49]  But let's start the conversation, see how far we get.
[00:38:51]  Yeah.
[00:38:51]  So, Christian Prince.
[00:38:53]  Christian Prince, if you open a reformed political thing, a treatise, or John Calvin, or anyone, or Luther, they'll talk about the Christian Prince.
[00:39:03]  Why did I use Prince?
[00:39:04]  Because when we think of Prince, we think of someone like a sort of great man, someone who has a type of gravitas and is revered.
[00:39:13]  He's not just a.
[00:39:15]  Politician.
[00:39:16]  I could have used the word statesman, but that seemed kind of modern.
[00:39:19]  And also, to our tradition, somewhat foreign, not entirely, but we don't use statesmen as much anymore.
[00:39:26]  But I wanted to use prince because I think it would be a sort of provocative word that would jar people from this idea of a politician, one, as a bad guy, and also, two, as a sort of policy wonk, some guy who maneuvers in the background and all this, but actually a figure, a man, like a great man.
[00:39:47]  And so, Christian prince was my.
[00:39:50]  Attempt to recover in our Western thinking the concept of a great man.
[00:39:57]  And we have great men in our own tradition from George Washington.
[00:40:01]  We mentioned before, you like him or hate him, Abraham Lincoln was a sort of great man and others in our history.
[00:40:08]  But he was great.
[00:40:08]  He was a great man.
[00:40:09]  There's a difference between a great man and a good man.
[00:40:11]  Yeah, like you could say, Alexander the Great was not exactly a good guy, but you could say that.
[00:40:15]  Napoleon was great.
[00:40:16]  Right, right.
[00:40:17]  So you have these figures in history.
[00:40:20]  Who are kind of shake the world.
[00:40:24]  And I think that's what we need.
[00:40:26]  Like, not necessarily someone who violates the Constitution.
[00:40:30]  I'm like, you want to throw the Constitution.
[00:40:32]  No, you can have a great man who operates within the bounds of your political system, who, nevertheless, by force of personality and action, is able to activate complacent hearts.
[00:40:45]  And that's what I think we need in our society today.
[00:40:47]  I think Trump is not a Christian prince, but he is a sort of ironic great man.
[00:40:53]  And I hope that he's.
[00:40:56]  He's trailblazing for a true Christian prince, great man to come about and bring us back.
[00:41:03]  I see him as a precursor.
[00:41:04]  I don't think he is the great man, but I think he's the closest we have.
[00:41:08]  And great man, again, being distinguished from necessarily good man.
[00:41:12]  I think there are good aspects, generally good aspects to Trump, and there are aspects that I think are atrocious.
[00:41:20]  So I think in some ways he's a good man, in some ways he's not.
[00:41:23]  But in either case, I think he is a great man.
[00:41:27]  But even in that category of great man, I don't think he's the greatest man.
[00:41:30]  I think he's a precursor to inspire a truly great man.
[00:41:35]  And whether that's going to be, you know, eight years of JD Vance, you know, or whoever that is, and however that comes.
[00:41:42]  But I do think that Trump has been used in the providence of God to whet our appetite for greatness.
[00:41:51]  Yeah.
[00:41:51]  And Leon is an example too.
[00:41:54]  Yeah.
[00:41:54]  And the way I see like great men is that they bring about a type of event in history.
[00:42:01]  That comes to shape history profoundly.
[00:42:03]  So, certainly, Napoleon shaped history profoundly.
[00:42:06]  George Washington did, Abraham Lincoln did.
[00:42:09]  And I think Trump did as well, or is.
[00:42:12]  And that is, he has destroyed the neoconservatives, which is very good.
[00:42:18]  He's now opened the possibility for a type of new right that is just exploding now in both popularity and in thought, intellectual and popular.
[00:42:28]  And so, that's why I think Trump is a sort of event in history.
[00:42:31]  And so, he's a sort of great man.
[00:42:33]  Yeah.
[00:42:34]  People often blame Abraham Lincoln for all those sorts of ills we have or various problems we've had in our, but he nevertheless, as a man, was the one who burst that open and made it possible.
[00:42:48]  Right.
[00:42:49]  And so, good or bad, that's what he was.
[00:42:52]  And so, yeah, that's what we need, because of the path we're leading in the Western world, which is descending lower and lower into.
[00:43:06]  Anti Christianity and degeneracy.
[00:43:10]  We need someone, a great man, to bring that all back, to restore and basically a sort of reminder of our heritage of faith, our heritage of virtue and piety.

=== Civil Ruler vs Priest Functions (04:11) ===

[00:43:20]  And so, anyway, that's why the Christian prince, I describe him in ways that the reformers describe civil magistrates, which was they're the sort of divine figure.
[00:43:33]  They're not divinized, they're not.
[00:43:36]  But it's representative.
[00:43:38]  Yeah, but they are in a way.
[00:43:40]  Because they have a power that they are, like I said, they are mediators of divine power in a way, not for salvation.
[00:43:47]  He can't bring about anyone's salvation, but he can order a people through enacting a law or, you know, and he can direct a people in ways that, like the ability to make law itself, that's firstly from God.
[00:44:04]  God is the first one who can say, is the only one who can say, do this and don't do that.
[00:44:08]  But he can delegate that power to individuals.
[00:44:12]  Who then can direct that power to people?
[00:44:15]  So there is a sense in which people got really upset when I said that it's the most sacred office.
[00:44:21]  The civil ruler is the most sacred office, that it more displays, in principle, can display more of God than even the church minister.
[00:44:34]  And that's because the church minister is an emissary, he's a minister on behalf of Christ.
[00:44:40]  He's not a mediator.
[00:44:41]  He doesn't mediate grace.
[00:44:43]  He.
[00:44:45]  Administers the means of grace, but he's not the mediator of grace.
[00:44:48]  And that's a deeply Protestant thought, you know, because, and that's why, like, you know, the Pope, vicar of Christ.
[00:44:53]  Yeah, that's why I say vicar.
[00:44:54]  And yeah, and he, and this is.
[00:44:55]  So in their thought, like a priest really, you know, especially the Pope or a cardinal, really, really would be more than an emissary.
[00:45:03]  They really would mediate grace.
[00:45:05]  And so in that sense, that would be the chief office.
[00:45:08]  So within a Catholic, you know, Roman Catholic conception, the Pope would be greater than any president or king.
[00:45:17]  But within a Protestant, Perspective.
[00:45:20]  It elevates in some sense.
[00:45:22]  Yeah, so the medieval papacy would see the pope as being the originator of both spiritual and civil power.
[00:45:31]  So, in a way, that a king has his power by delegation of the pope because the pope is the vicar of Christ on earth.
[00:45:40]  Christ is the ultimate originator of civil and spiritual power.
[00:45:43]  And so it goes through the pope.
[00:45:44]  What just means then is that the pope can remove that from you.
[00:45:47]  So, if you become a heretic, The Pope can say, You're no, now you're a usurper.
[00:45:52]  All of a sudden, I take that power back.
[00:45:54]  And when that happens, that means you're a tyrant by deep, by in effect, which means that all of your people under you can now rebel, even murder you.
[00:46:03]  You're no longer legitimate.
[00:46:04]  The Pope can command the Roman Catholic subjects under a, say, a Protestant magistrate to now rebel and to even murder.
[00:46:16]  The papacy has the power, at least did, I think still does, but they're all kind of wishy washy in this now.
[00:46:22]  But if you're a heretic, then they can seize all your property.
[00:46:25]  They can seize everything you own because you're a heretic.
[00:46:28]  Whereas Protestants generally denied that.
[00:46:32]  So you still have a right to what you have, even if you're in jail or you're accused of heresy and under civil punishment.
[00:46:39]  But the Pope could claim that.
[00:46:40]  And that's rooted in their theology.
[00:46:42]  Whereas in Protestants, it did.
[00:46:44]  Like Papacy said, you made possible tyranny, which is that.
[00:46:48]  But yeah, there was an elevation of the role of the civil ruler in earthly affairs.
[00:46:57]  As an effect of Protestantism, which really is a restoration of classical politics.
[00:47:03]  You see in Plato and Aristotle and Seneca and Cicero that the civil magistrate, civil ruler, is the, in a way, the supreme office of the land.
[00:47:12]  And the priests have their functions within religion, but in a way, within a civil sense, they are subservient to the magistrate.
[00:47:19]  Whereas in the Roman Catholic system, you really have church and state are separate.
[00:47:23]  And the priests are, at least in the medieval conception, are under that jurisdiction of the church.
[00:47:30]  And so cannot really be punished.

=== Protestant Restoration of Classical Politics (00:46) ===

[00:47:31]  This is the idea of like church lands.
[00:47:33]  They'd have church property, church farms, church armies, militaries.
[00:47:38]  All that function under that system flows from that theology, which Protestants rejected.
[00:47:43]  So, anyway, that's great.
[00:47:44]  So, what do you think?
[00:47:45]  Should we do another episode on the Christian Prince or should we move on to our next topic?
[00:47:52]  I don't know.
[00:47:53]  What is our next topic?
[00:47:54]  Religious liberty.
[00:47:55]  So, I think we could probably move into that.
[00:47:58]  Yeah, we could move in from, we could do Christian Prince and do both.
[00:48:01]  Do both.
[00:48:01]  Okay.
[00:48:02]  So, this was episode, I believe, seven.
[00:48:05]  Yeah.
[00:48:05]  Is that right?
[00:48:06]  So, episodes eight, if you stick around for the conversation, we'll talk a little bit more of the Christian prince and then how that shifts and relates to religious liberty.
[00:48:16]  Yeah.
[00:48:16]  All right.
[00:48:17]  Thanks for tuning in.