NXR Podcast - THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Nominal Christianity And “The Blessing Of Hypocrisy” Aired: 2025-08-09 Duration: 44:46 === Why Positive Reviews Matter (15:05) === [00:00:00] Leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform. [00:00:04] I get it. [00:00:04] It's annoying. [00:00:05] Everybody asks, but I'm going to tell you why. [00:00:07] When you give us a positive review, what that does is it triggers the algorithm so that our podcast shows up on more people's news feeds. [00:00:16] You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't. [00:00:21] We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears. [00:00:45] All right, welcome back. [00:00:46] This is episode six now in a 10 part series. [00:00:49] We're talking about all things Christian nationalism and even more broadly than that. [00:00:53] My name is Joel Webbin. [00:00:54] I'm here with Dr. Stephen Wolf. [00:00:56] And today's episode, which I really am excited about, I think it'll be a doozy, is focusing on Christian culture or cultural Christianity. [00:01:06] And I thought maybe right out of the gate, I'm a Baptist, Stephen is Presbyterian. [00:01:11] But even as a Baptist, I would be remiss if I miss an opportunity to dunk on Baptist. [00:01:16] So when it comes to cultural Christianity, There's, it's funny. [00:01:21] There's, you know, kind of your nominal Baptists, which would make up the vast majority. [00:01:24] Think of like Rick Warren and, you know, Bill Hybles and the secret sensitive movement of the 90s and those kinds of things. [00:01:31] They're very reliant on cultural Christianity. [00:01:35] That there's just, you could assume within the larger, you know, broader culture, this nominal Christianity, that if you have, you know, enough programs and things like that, that people will show up to your church. [00:01:47] And then, you know, within kind of more of the G3 or MacArthur world, Baptist with a little bit more of a theological robustness and things like that. [00:01:58] It's funny that within that crew, Reformed Baptist, of which I'm technically a part of, it's funny that we were talking offline. [00:02:08] There's this weird dichotomy where, on the one hand, the Reformed Baptist's greatest fear is sacralism or being persecuted, not by the left, not by atheists or communists, but being persecuted by Anglicans or Presbyterians or Episcopalians, by fellow brothers in Christ, that they would. [00:02:27] That their greatest fear is that Christians would actually be victorious and win, and that you would have a Christian state. [00:02:34] And even though Baptists outnumber the Presbyterians 10 to 1, somehow the Baptists have such a loser mentality that they think that even with a 10 to 1 advantage, the Presbyterians, if we became a Christian nation, would somehow still be in charge and that the Baptists would be drowned. [00:02:50] So, on the one hand, the weird dichotomy is Well, they're right about the in charge part, but not the drown part. [00:02:55] Maybe not outnumbering, but the Presbyterians would still be in charge. [00:02:57] That's probably fair. [00:02:59] So, on one hand, there's the like the Baptist, you know, Reformed Baptist greatest fear is persecution from Christians. [00:03:05] And on the other hand, it's also like their greatest fantasy. [00:03:11] You know, it's like, you know, secretly in their heart of hearts, they're like, if only, you know, I could be one day, you know, thrown into a tiny hole by fellow believers, you know, because I, if I could only be John Bunyan, you know, one day, you know, because I was unlicensed to preach, you know, and I'll write books, you know, for 12 years in my jail cell. [00:03:32] And And so it's weird. [00:03:33] So it's the greatest fear and the greatest fantasy simultaneously. [00:03:36] And that would be for the more robust, theologically robust, Reformed Baptists. [00:03:40] And then 85, 90% of Baptists in America today, your Rick Warren, purpose driven life, nominal Baptists actually rely on Christian culture, cultural Christianity, so that they can just assume a nominal Christianity within the larger populace that will drive people to show up and sit in their pews. [00:03:59] And so, anyways, all that being said, from the Baptist side of the aisle, I. [00:04:05] I hear virtually exclusively negative remarks when it comes to cultural Christianity. [00:04:13] I strongly disagree. [00:04:15] I think that it's a net positive, and that's what we should talk about today. [00:04:20] Yeah, I mean, I think there's two positives to cultural Christianity. [00:04:24] And so the first one is that it prepares people for faith. [00:04:29] That's the first one. [00:04:31] When you're in a very, if you're in a non Christian environment, or let's say it's an atheistic or type of practical atheistic environment, or it's one that's just straight up non Christian, you have to, when you do apologetics and you try to, you know, preach the gospel or you do evangelism, you have to then, you have to get to a lot. [00:04:53] You have to prove the existence of God. [00:04:55] There's a lot, in other words, that they have to come to accept. [00:04:57] Whatever your apologetic method is, they have to get to a lot. [00:05:00] Whereas, if you're in a cultural Christian environment, which I basically live in in North Carolina, they all believe in God. [00:05:10] Most people believe in most of the propositions of faith. [00:05:14] So they would agree that Christ is Lord. [00:05:16] They would agree with the gospel as they understand it. [00:05:19] They would have some rudimentary understanding of it. [00:05:21] They'd be churched in some way. [00:05:22] Maybe their grandparents read them the Bible or they have the Bible from their grandparents or parents. [00:05:28] And so there's already that basic standard or basic set of propositions that they're. [00:05:33] Either affirm or they're open to affirming. [00:05:36] And so from there, you then say, well, you claim to be a Christian, well, you should go to church. [00:05:43] Or if you affirm these propositions, but you should actually affirm them by faith. [00:05:47] Like you should actually, because as Protestants, we believe that it's not enough just to affirm the propositions that you're saved by faith. [00:05:55] It's that you actually have to have exercised faith in that, faith in the person work of Jesus Christ. [00:06:01] So they already have the first step, and now you just call them in a way to faithfulness. [00:06:06] If they were baptized, As a child, or because they walked down the aisle when they were 12 or 15, it's like, hey, you're baptized. [00:06:14] Now I'm calling you to faith to honor your baptism. [00:06:18] That might be more Presbyterian understanding of baptism. [00:06:21] But anyway, nevertheless, you could say that, hey, you made this confession. [00:06:28] Now honor that confession. [00:06:30] Believe in Jesus by faith. [00:06:32] So that's already there. [00:06:33] You can't say remember. [00:06:34] Okay. [00:06:35] Because it's hard to remember. [00:06:36] Honor or remember. [00:06:37] Yeah. [00:06:38] You can't say remember if you were three months old when it happened. [00:06:41] Right, exactly. [00:06:42] Yeah, sure. [00:06:45] So that's the first one. [00:06:46] So it creates an environment when people are already prepared for faith. [00:06:50] And we do this, Baptists in particular, but everyone does this. [00:06:53] They prepare their children, whether it's for true faith or they're maturing them in a very young faith. [00:07:00] It's you're preparing them for the fullness of faith in your family life. [00:07:03] And so my argument is that we do it in the family. [00:07:06] Why can't the nation do that as well? [00:07:09] So that's one side. [00:07:10] The other side is it just makes it better for them. [00:07:14] It's better for even nominal Christians to live better when they are in a Christian environment, when it's normal to believe these things. [00:07:24] They're going to adopt, not perfectly, but they're going to adopt the general norm, the moral norms of Christianity, and that's going to be reflected in society. [00:07:33] So it's loving to them. [00:07:36] It's also loving to their children. [00:07:37] I mentioned in a previous episode that you can have a father, like in the Dutch Protestant tradition, is reading your Bible. [00:07:44] So I think they'd have a little bit. [00:07:45] Space that they'd put their Bible next to the table or under the table or something like that. [00:07:50] And they would have that tradition where you read the Bible. [00:07:52] Now, the father might just be doing it out of a cultural norm. [00:07:56] He may not actually believe, but that act of doing that, reading the word to your children and to your wife, that's in a way preaching the gospel through nominal Christianity. [00:08:07] So there are those goods that come along with cultural Christianity that we shouldn't just dismiss. [00:08:14] I mean, do you want to live? [00:08:17] We'll get to like hypocrisy and other things in a minute, but. [00:08:20] Wouldn't it be better? [00:08:21] Wouldn't you have a better, more just society where you can appeal to these norms, even as Christians? [00:08:27] You can say, you know, this is wrong because this is what the word of God says. [00:08:32] Yeah. [00:08:33] And even if they don't fully grasp Christ by faith, that still has an appeal to them. [00:08:39] It's a way to correct and to have a type of social discipline that is good for everyone. [00:08:45] Well, you'd have a more virtuous and moral culture, you'd have a more just state and laws. [00:08:53] So it's a net positive in that regard outside of the realm of the church. [00:08:58] So, to steel man the guys who are not fans of cultural Christianity, who tend to be Reformed Baptist types, to steel man, I disagree with them, but to steel man their argument, this is, I think, what they would say. [00:09:09] They would say, well, yeah, generally, there would be a general improvement in terms of judicial laws, customs, and there would also be a general improvement in terms of culture. [00:09:22] It'd be less degenerate. [00:09:24] Hollywood wouldn't be pumping out quite as terrible things. [00:09:28] And so they would say, culturally and politically, There would be a general improvement, net positive. [00:09:35] Their concern, if I can be fair to their arguments, would be it'd be better for politics and culture, worse for the church. [00:09:43] And the line of logic goes something like this they would say, with a cultural Christianity across the board, is going to equate to nominal Christianity, a rise in nominal Christianity. [00:09:54] Nominal Christianity, as it impacts the church, is going to be theological nominalism, means nominal seminaries. [00:10:05] Training what will become nominal pastors with nominal doctrine, nominal preaching to go to nominal churches. [00:10:13] And the whole result of it, right? [00:10:16] So, net positive in the culture and in politics, but in the church, the final result will be basically false assurance. [00:10:26] That's the Baptist concern it'll be false assurance. [00:10:29] It'll be a bunch of people with their consciences being assuaged wrongly and being coaxed into thinking that they. [00:10:39] Possess a salvation that objectively they don't. [00:10:42] And whereas, you know, if the culture and the state and, you know, outside of the church is hostile towards Christianity, you'll have less churches, but you'll have the few, the proud, the remnant. [00:10:54] And the churches that you do have left will be a pure, it's a very puritanical, it's Anabaptist kind of mentality that says we'd rather have 10% of the churches, but they're, you know, perfect or close to it, perfect churches. [00:11:12] So that way, you know, Maybe we have less Christians, but everyone who is a Christian, you know, it's less quantity, but more quality. [00:11:19] And you can know that you know that you know. [00:11:21] That would be their argument. [00:11:23] Now, I have counters to that, but what would you say? [00:11:24] Yeah, I'd say two things. [00:11:26] The first is that any, I acknowledge that. [00:11:29] So it would be the case that there would be more hypocrisy, there would be more nominal Christianity. [00:11:38] But just pointing out that something has a cost to it or a negative side does not mean that it's actually overall bad. [00:11:46] So you can dwell on, The negative side of any policy, let's say it's a law, that there's usually some kind of downside to a policy. [00:11:56] You know, like we have a court system where 90, let's say, let's just say that 99% of convictions, the guy actually did what he did. [00:12:05] Well, the fact that we have jails and we have, we throw people in jail means that there's going to be some people who are going to go to jail who actually didn't commit the crime. [00:12:13] And, you know, we create a process, you know, all that. [00:12:16] We don't get in that. [00:12:17] But there's always going to be. [00:12:18] So if you just dwell on that 1% and look at the injustice of that 1%, right. [00:12:23] And then you're losing all the, and you get rid of his system entirely. [00:12:27] Well, guess what? [00:12:28] The mayhem that's going to be caused. [00:12:29] There's always going to be that downside. [00:12:31] So you have to take the entire, you have to, in a way, judge the negative by the positive and then see if it's good. [00:12:40] So I would argue that, yes, that is the case, that there will be nominal Christian hypocrisy. [00:12:46] But overall, the conditions will be one more conducive to faith. [00:12:50] And overall, the society will be a better society for people. [00:12:54] It's more loving to your neighbor to have a society in which they are ordered to being virtuous. [00:13:02] And the society broadly is virtuous, and also that they're prepared for faith. [00:13:07] So I think that that makes a lot more sense. [00:13:09] That's awesome. [00:13:10] So, and also, I, but secondly, I don't think that it's right that you're going to have a, that there's going to be that absent cultural Christianity, there's going to be this stark divide between the Orthodox and the, I don't know, the infidels or what are the atheists, whatever, the non Christian. [00:13:32] Right. [00:13:33] I don't think that's going to happen. [00:13:34] Because what we're seeing today is actually as cultural Christianity kind of wanes in the country, you're getting, it's kind of, they're kind of blurring the lines now. [00:13:43] So it's not that there isn't this create, this, there are differences, clear differences between like what we'd consider a strict orthodox and theology and morality and the world broadly speaking. [00:13:54] But what you're seeing though are a lot of churches kind of moving to the left in order to appeal to these people. [00:14:00] Right. [00:14:00] So then the lines still become, it's still just as blurred. [00:14:03] It's just as blurred. [00:14:04] There's not a stark contrast. [00:14:06] We're actually seeing the opposite. [00:14:08] And also, that I think this became apparent to the American regime broadly in 2016. [00:14:15] The campaign of 2015, 2016 from the left was very negative towards Christianity and conservative Christians, and just broadly across the board. [00:14:28] And I think they realized at that point that actually the evangelical voting bloc, you can't just criticize them, attack them, and denounce them, and expect because they're so powerful. [00:14:38] You can't do that anymore. [00:14:39] And so the campaigns subsequent to that on the left was actually trying to bring in evangelicals for Biden and trying to make it so actually, how can we appeal to these people to break up that voting block? [00:14:55] And so then you see in the New York Times, the Washington Post, you see these priestesses or these, theologically, they're orthodox, right? [00:15:03] Penal substitution and Trinitarian doctrine. === Faithful Rhetoric in the South (05:57) === [00:15:05] Yeah, like David French, they affirm all the doctrines. [00:15:09] But they operate from the regime to try to get conservatives to vote for either Democrats or the neocons or whatever. [00:15:19] So I just don't think that that's actually the case, that there's going to be this stark line. [00:15:25] And I mean, this was what Russell Moore, maybe about 10 years ago, was arguing. [00:15:29] He said it's actually better that everyone around us is just atheist and hostile so that we know who's Christian, who's not. [00:15:37] But as hostility has increased, We've actually seen the lines blurred even more. [00:15:42] So there is that stark contrast. [00:15:44] It's just not going to happen. [00:15:45] The regime is all like, if there is a power, if because Christians are a powerful voting bloc, the regime has to, instead of just denouncing, they have to try to break that apart and make them, some of those people go to their side. [00:16:02] And that's going to be, like I said, that's going to be having the sort of rhetoric where you maintain the orthodoxy in terms of strict, like, Theological doctrine while politically moving people to the left. [00:16:14] Right. [00:16:15] The only other thing I was going to say, so I agree with you. [00:16:17] I think, I just think it's a false notion that a Christian culture necessitates or is going to guarantee nominal Christian doctrine that leads towards nominal Christian preaching, which leads towards false conversions, false assurance, and a bunch of people end up going to hell. [00:16:41] So I reject that. [00:16:42] And the simplest, most concise way that I could say it is this nominal Christianity. [00:16:49] Is not the fault, or it doesn't track back to the faithfulness of the state. [00:16:57] It tracks back to the failure of the church. [00:17:00] A faithful state, so like a faithful Christian prince, does not necessitate a faithless Christian churchman. [00:17:09] Like if you have a Constantine, Constantine, by virtue of being Constantine, doesn't necessitate that all the ministers have to suck. [00:17:20] You know, if the ministers suck, that's on them, you know. [00:17:23] But, but that's like to me, that's the biggest disconnect is as I thought about the argument of like, well, cultural Christianity will, you know, because it was basically a statement being made without ever having really been proved, you know. [00:17:36] So, like, it just was assumed that cultural Christianity, um, means nominal Christianity. [00:17:42] Um, but, but when we talk about cultural Christianity, we're talking about the increase of Christian customs and virtues and values. [00:17:54] Both in culture and also politically, in terms of government and laws and these kinds of things. [00:18:02] And so, really, what you're talking about is you're talking about because that's going to be influenced by someone. [00:18:07] So, you're talking about influencers and leaders, and both politically, like civil magistrates, but also in culture, in terms of leaders of institutions and corporations and universities and all these different things. [00:18:23] You're just talking about having more Christian leaders outside of the sphere of the church, beyond just pastors. [00:18:28] You know, there's Christian politicians, Christian actors, Christian, you know, university chancellors, and all this kind of stuff. [00:18:36] And if you have that, and that has a positive effect in the realm of culture and politics, to there was more of a Christian culture there, none of that necessitates a decline in the sphere of the church. [00:18:52] The church doesn't have to become less Christian because the nation has become more Christian. [00:18:56] You'd have to prove that, you know, and bear that out why that. [00:19:00] Why that's a guarantee, you know, and I don't think anybody really has. [00:19:05] Yeah. [00:19:05] I mean, especially in, I think in Protestantism, we can, like, you know, you're Baptist, I'm Presbyterian. [00:19:12] We can have it. [00:19:13] And this is, I think, the American, particularly like the 19th century religiosity, where you have many different, you have Methodists, you have Baptists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists. [00:19:24] And you can have a robust, like in cultural Christianity, in a Protestant, you know, a pan Protestant nation, you can have. [00:19:35] Uh, a lot of because of the differences, you can generate a lot of interest in theological discussion in the things of God, right? [00:19:44] That then people end up going on the side they're on. [00:19:47] Um, but as Protestants, we can affirm each other's mutual faith. [00:19:50] So if you have a cultural Christianity that is Protestant, um, the society itself will become very, very, very theological and the discussion will go around. [00:19:59] I do, I will say though, I understand, I understand like the where people like. [00:20:06] You know, I hate to say it, but people like Russell Moore are coming from because they grew up in the South, they're in Southern Baptist churches. [00:20:13] In the South, there are, as someone who is kind of an outsider who's moved in, there are ways in which religion is abused. [00:20:22] I mean, this is true everywhere, but just as something that's very clear because Christianity is so kind of fundamental to the Southern culture, you listen to some country songs and they're just utterly blasphemous, like using holy language to talk about the romance you have with your girlfriend. [00:20:38] Right. [00:20:39] Like stuff like that, I understand. [00:20:41] Like, you listen to that, and like, my wife and I listen, I can't believe this should not be the case. [00:20:47] So, I understand where those people, now that I'm kind of in that world, as someone who's grown up and grew up in California, not in a Christian family, now seeing it, you can kind of understand where they're coming from. [00:21:00] Um, again, I would just say the alternative is much worse. === Hypocrisy That Suppresses Sin (11:34) === [00:21:03] Yes. [00:21:03] Um, but we, what we should instead of attacking cultural Christianity, we should be saying, look, Christianity is part of our culture, but this other, um, uh, like, The actual, like, using theology to talk about your girlfriend is wrong. [00:21:21] That should be kicked out. [00:21:22] And so there should be within the churches of the South, like you said, the call to faithful ministers to say, this stuff is wrong. [00:21:31] This is not who we are. [00:21:32] And use language of we, like, use language of this is our culture. [00:21:37] It is Christian, but we have to be faithful. [00:21:39] So call people to faithfulness, call them to attend churches, call the churchmen to denounce these things that are in the culture. [00:21:47] Without going in the realm of, oh, this is all cultural Christianity. [00:21:50] We need to get rid of it. [00:21:51] It's better if all our enablers are atheists so we know where they're at. [00:21:56] So, yeah. [00:21:57] So, in other words, you acknowledge the negatives without throwing everything out, right? [00:22:02] Well, it's the same as like you think of like welfare and things like that. [00:22:05] And the argument is like, well, if we have these policies, then it's going to take the pressure off of heads of households within the sphere of the family to provide, to protect, because Uncle Sam becomes Daddy Sam, you know. [00:22:20] Then men will abdicate leadership and provision and those. [00:22:24] And I get that. [00:22:25] And I actually, for the most part, agree with that. [00:22:27] I don't think we should have welfare, regardless of whether or not it gives incentive for people to abdicate. [00:22:32] I just don't think we should do it, period. [00:22:35] That's my view. [00:22:36] However, that said, it doesn't necessitate that. [00:22:43] Like you could technically, theoretically, you could have welfare and men could still just say, yeah, but that's my job and I'm not going to rely on the state because that's gay. [00:22:51] Like, that's effeminate. [00:22:52] That's not masculine. [00:22:53] Right. [00:22:54] Like, it's embarrassing. [00:22:55] It's humiliating. [00:22:55] I actually, you know, like, did we not teach the boy shame? [00:22:59] Like, I, you know, growing up was taught shame. [00:23:01] It would be an embarrassment for me, even if it was there. [00:23:04] And I knew, okay, my children won't starve and we'll be fine. [00:23:07] Sure, we'll be fine, but I'll be embarrassed. [00:23:10] Yeah. [00:23:10] You know, so that, like, you know, that would be enough. [00:23:13] And I think, you know, to use that and equate that as, you know, an illustration, shifting it over to, you know, instead of, The state providing welfare, and then that being an excuse for in the household for fathers to abdicate their responsibilities with provision. [00:23:28] It's the same thing with the state providing a Christian direction that orients the populace towards heavenly good, creating the excuse for ministers in the house of God to abdicate their responsibilities. [00:23:44] It doesn't necessitate that. [00:23:46] Ministers could just say, Yeah, you know what? [00:23:47] So the state, for the first time in a while, is doing a pretty good job, even in a spiritual aspect. [00:23:54] And that's wonderful. [00:23:55] And those ministers could look at that and they could say, and so, you know, I'm actually going to ratchet my work week down to 30 hours a week instead of 40 hours a week. [00:24:04] And I'm gonna study a little less for my sermons and do a little bit less counseling. [00:24:09] You could do that, or you could, aren't you gonna be a man? [00:24:13] You could be, you just be a man, you know, and whether it's provision as a man, as a father in the household, or whether it's spiritual provision as a man of God, a minister in the church. [00:24:23] But the state doing something well doesn't mean the household has to do it poorly. [00:24:27] The state doing something well doesn't mean that the church has to do it poorly. [00:24:30] None of you, you can't prove causation. [00:24:35] I guess is what I'm saying. [00:24:37] And then the last thing I was going to say real quick, because you said, well, the alternative is worse. [00:24:42] When you were saying that, yeah, it could produce nominalism and these kinds of things and excuse. [00:24:48] But, you know, oh, and not just nominalism. [00:24:51] You were talking about like the country Western singer, you know, and he's singing, you know, biblical language, but he's applying it to, you know, his love for his dog and fishing and his gal. [00:25:00] And it really is, you know, blasphemous. [00:25:03] And you're like, yeah, but the alternative is. [00:25:06] Just absolute degenerate rap music. [00:25:10] It's like I'm singing the way that I should talk about Christ, I'm applying to my girlfriend in a country western song. [00:25:17] The alternative is I'm rapping about how I've killed 14 people and got away with it. [00:25:24] You know what I mean? [00:25:26] So the alternative is worse. [00:25:27] Well, I mean, yeah, there's something to work with. [00:25:30] Exactly. [00:25:30] It's not that it doesn't need correction. [00:25:33] It's an abuse of your Christian culture to do that, but at least there is the Christian culture you can work with. [00:25:38] With there's enough commonality to where I can correct it exactly. [00:25:41] So, what I was going to say with that is, um, it made me think of G.K. Chesterton, I think it was him who said, um, that hypocrisy because this is the thing that I think. [00:25:50] So, the Reformed Baptists, their biggest thing is they're like, well, it's going to lend towards false assurance nominal Christianity, it'll produce nominal Christianity, Christian culture. [00:25:58] If the state, you know, is Christian, Christianized, uh, it's going to produce a nominal Christianity, and that's going to lend towards, um, you know, ultimately false assurance. [00:26:10] And, and really, if we were to boil that down. [00:26:11] Down even further beyond, you know, there's the severity of false assurance means, you know, people going to hell. [00:26:17] But if we were to boil it down to a word, it would be hypocrisy. [00:26:21] And what I've noticed is that, like, for a lot of Christians, and ironically, just people innately across the board, a bunch of leftists, too, you know, like that's the biggest, even though they're, they totally embody hypocrisy themselves, that's, that's their favorite, you know, objection to the right all the time. [00:26:35] It's like, well, that's hypocritical, you know, and you're not really pro life, you know, because you don't, I don't know, give free money to people, you know, from the day that they're born to the day they die, you know, whatever. [00:26:46] But like, but it's always that's the charge that people like to levy is hypocrisy. [00:26:50] We hate hypocrisy. [00:26:52] But I think it was Chesterton and it made me think differently about hypocrisy. [00:26:56] He basically said something, I'm paraphrasing, but he said, hypocrisy is a vice and it's tip of the hat to virtue. [00:27:07] That, that a society, so Christian culture, basically what we're saying is, well, but some of the results is the country Western singer is going to, Is going to use Christian language but apply it to his girlfriend. [00:27:20] It's going to produce false assurances. [00:27:21] It's going to produce nominal. [00:27:23] In a word, I think what we could say is Christian culture will produce a greater degree of hypocrisy. [00:27:30] And then you said, yeah, but the alternative is worse. [00:27:32] And to put a little bit more meat on the bones there, the alternative is no hypocrisy. [00:27:36] And here's the funny thing the irony is a world without hypocrisy is actually worse than a world with hypocrisy. [00:27:45] That's great. [00:27:45] Because the world without hypocrisy. [00:27:48] Is a world where there's no need for vice to tip the hat to virtue because virtue has been so eradicated and destroyed that there's no longer virtue at all. [00:27:57] It is actually a benefit. [00:27:59] I remember watching the coronation with King Charles and all the Baptists, like clockwork, the G3 types came out and they couldn't help themselves. [00:28:06] I'm like, this is blasphemy. [00:28:08] And he's not a defender of the faith. [00:28:09] He's not even saved. [00:28:11] And he doesn't give a crap about Jesus. [00:28:13] And what a mockery of it. [00:28:15] And the whole time, I'm like, yeah, I mean, objectively, that's true. [00:28:18] I agree with you. [00:28:18] I don't think King Charles is, you know, I'm not omniscient. [00:28:20] God alone sees the heart. [00:28:21] But for all intents and purposes and signs that we can discern, yeah, I don't think the dude's a Christian. [00:28:27] I don't think he's regenerate. [00:28:29] But here's the deal. [00:28:31] All the pomp and circumstance, and all the rituals, and all the customs, and all these different things, I'm grateful for them. [00:28:38] Even when they're hypocritical, I'm grateful for them because the hypocrisy, what that alludes to, is that at least is England in the true sense Christian? [00:28:47] No, but there's at least enough of a prior Christendom, enough of a hangover left to where all the degenerates, at least one day a year, you know, or whatever, have to pretend and tip their hat. [00:29:01] All the vice has to at least occasionally tip the hat to virtue. [00:29:06] Do we really want a culture and a world and nations where vice doesn't even have to pretend? [00:29:13] Like, yeah, we don't want vice, but if we do have vice, I'd like it to pretend now and again. [00:29:18] But a world where it doesn't even have to pretend. [00:29:20] Right. [00:29:21] Well, yeah, you want the vice to be inward. [00:29:25] There's an old Oscar Wilde quip where he says something like, only the superficial fail to judge by appearances or something like that. [00:29:31] Basically saying that, you know, he's saying that outward appearances and your conformity to Good moral norms is actually, even if inside you don't actually believe it, actually supports, like outwardly, you know, supports the good. [00:29:49] It's a good thing. [00:29:50] We have this in scripture. [00:29:51] The Apostle Paul says, well, whether it's for good motives, true motives, or false, it's still a net positive that the gospel is being preached. [00:29:59] You know, it's just like manners. [00:30:01] So if you, you might really want to punch a guy in the nose, but you restrain yourself, like deep inside, that's what you want to do. [00:30:09] You'd be very satisfied. [00:30:10] But there's outward decorum that prevents you from doing that. [00:30:13] And we would, even though that would be a type of hypocrisy, I mean, really, that's what civil law does. [00:30:18] Like when they say, you know, murdering, you'll get punished for murder. [00:30:23] And that restraint. [00:30:24] You might really want to, yeah, that restraint. [00:30:26] You might really in your heart want to murder some guy, but the fear of punishment prevents you from doing that. [00:30:31] And that is a form of hypocrisy, but it's good because outwardly it creates the conditions in which that's suppressed. [00:30:37] And I think we have, we tend to have this, I don't know if this is a modern situation. [00:30:41] Thing, but we tend to have this like stark divide between outward and inward. [00:30:44] I mean, there is a classic distinction in Protestant thought, and also I don't deny that, but it also is a case that the outwardness of something can affect the inward. [00:30:54] So we're quick to say that the motives, that the heart will shape behaviors, right? [00:30:59] Hands and feet will be shaped by the heart. [00:31:00] But there is a truth in saying that the hands and feet over time will also shape the heart. [00:31:05] That if I practice certain disciplines, even if my heart's not in it, and I do them consistently enough and long enough, Desire can, it's not just that desire fuels actions. [00:31:18] Consistent actions over time can shape desire. [00:31:22] Right. [00:31:22] And this is one of the great points of Edmund Burke and his reflections of the revolution of France. [00:31:27] He says if you upend the social order, this outward thing that's developed over time, you're allowing the internal vices to just unleash. [00:31:38] And he predicted the reign of terror and the rise of Napoleon and all that stuff in France. [00:31:43] But it's absolutely the case. [00:31:44] Like, yeah, the outward decorum. [00:31:48] Comes to normalize in our hearts what is right and what's wrong. [00:31:52] And that's why it's very important. [00:31:54] I mean, so if outward decorum is degenerate, then it's going to shape the heart for degeneracy. [00:31:59] But if it's outward decorum is actually good, yes, it creates hypocrisy, but also trains the heart in what's good as well. [00:32:06] It's like the, it's what Ed Burke said, I don't know the exact quote, but he says something like prejudice. [00:32:13] Like you can have outward like laws that say do this, don't do that, but it's the prejudice, meaning that it's the felt rightness of some action. [00:32:22] That's what, that's what, that's what lead you to own that as something that feels right. [00:32:27] Like there's a, That, yeah, your heart is shaped as in what looks right, what you ought to do in the situation, even when you don't, even when you have desires to do the opposite. === Cultural Christianity Functions Well (02:37) === [00:32:37] Right. [00:32:38] There is a type of social, it's what like some like Emil Durkheim, an old sociologist, called it like social, there's social facts. [00:32:47] There's these things that govern a society broadly that are not laws in the explicit sense, but somehow we all own them as proper. [00:32:58] The idea of proper greetings of one opening the door for people. [00:33:02] And Canadians do this a lot too. [00:33:05] But if you bump into someone, you say, I'm sorry or apologize, even if it's their fault. [00:33:09] Like it's a weird thing how we, if you're just standing there and a guy bumps you, you might say, Oh, I'm sorry. [00:33:16] It's not your fault. [00:33:17] But why do you do that? [00:33:17] Because it's a social custom that allows people to get on their day. [00:33:22] It's acknowledging that there was this thing that happened and then it resolves the issue and you move on. [00:33:26] Right. [00:33:27] So there's these things that we do that make our society function well for the good. [00:33:33] So we can live at peace and we can, Are able to love one another as a community, right? [00:33:38] And cultural Christianity is just that. [00:33:40] I mean, right now, we're you know, this is I guess this airs after Christmas, but you walk around and you see these trees and you see lights, and I love it. [00:33:49] And you saw this stuff. [00:33:50] That's I've got two trees, even though there's nothing like obvious in my house, yeah, yeah, true, true. [00:33:54] Yeah, we just got ours last week. [00:33:56] Um, it, I was talking about it's like, imagine if someone showed up and they said you cut off a tree and you put it in your house and you put lights around it. [00:34:03] It's like, what in the world are you doing? [00:34:05] Like, what is this? [00:34:06] If they had no concept of the tradition, because. [00:34:09] Then they're like, how is this Christian and all that? [00:34:11] But, um, because Martin Luther did it. [00:34:12] That's why. [00:34:12] Yeah. [00:34:13] But, you know, it's, it's, uh, it feels so normal to us, even though when you step outside of your world, right. [00:34:19] And you look into it from like the, that, that perspective, you're like, this is bizarre. [00:34:24] But it feels so normal to us. [00:34:27] And it's joyful and it's festive. [00:34:28] And you have your own family traditions around it. [00:34:31] And then there's the national traditions. [00:34:32] And there used to be more of that the Christmas parades and, and the, uh, the skyscrapers with crosses on them during Christmas. [00:34:39] Right. [00:34:40] Right. [00:34:40] Yeah. [00:34:40] Um, I mean, we had all those things. [00:34:43] And, And it supported not only in New York, and that was a good Friday. [00:34:48] It was good Friday, it was like 1950 something in New York. [00:34:52] And you see these three of the tallest buildings in New York City with three crosses, you know, to represent Calvary. [00:34:59] Yeah. [00:34:59] It wasn't that long ago. [00:35:01] And just even your, you know, like kind of stiff Presbyterian church on Easter Sunday, even if they're not going to, because, you know, free as the regulative principle, they're not going to. === The Three Uses of God's Law (08:23) === [00:35:15] They are still going to preach a gospel sermon that is not just yours. [00:35:20] It's the here's justification. [00:35:24] They're still going to do that. [00:35:25] And why is that? [00:35:25] Because there are family members who said, Yeah, I'll go to church, you know, and then, or there's random outsiders who, Yeah, I guess we should go to church today. [00:35:33] Why not? [00:35:34] That's right. [00:35:34] And they show up. [00:35:35] Everyone does that. [00:35:36] And that's because of cultural Christianity. [00:35:38] Now, they should attend church every Sunday, but the fact of the matter is the culture has nudged them into doing that. [00:35:46] Right. [00:35:47] And it's a good thing. [00:35:47] And all the, I, Completely agree. [00:35:49] All this is rooted, you see it from reason, you see it from logic, you see it from experience. [00:35:56] You can just point to so many different testimonies of cultural Christianity leading someone to a church or they heard the gospel, and then eventually it wasn't just cultural, it became genuine and they were born again. [00:36:08] But also, the principle is also, most importantly, it's thoroughly biblical. [00:36:12] Like it's what the Apostle Paul talks about when he says that the law is a tutor, that the law actually brings us to Christ. [00:36:21] This is the reformed view of. [00:36:23] The three uses of the law of God. [00:36:25] In its first use, I always use the illustration of a mirror, a shield, and a compass. [00:36:32] So it's like the law reveals to us the holiness of God, and by way of consequence, it shows us our own lack of holiness, our sinfulness, and the immense chasm. [00:36:41] It doesn't save us, but it shows us, it drives us to Christ, shows us our need for Christ. [00:36:46] Spurgeon said, A man cannot appreciate the beauty of Christ unless he first comes to see the necessity for Christ. [00:36:53] And so the law of God in its first use, Reveals that God is holy by proxy, that we are sinners and that we need a savior and we can't save ourselves. [00:37:01] And the second use, it doesn't again change the heart, it doesn't save. [00:37:07] But the law of God, even for the unregenerate and even for the reprobate, those who never end up being saved, the law of God does at the outward level, in terms of their behaviors, it restrains outward manifestations of evil. [00:37:20] And that's good for them, actually. [00:37:22] It's actually even good for them because Jesus even talks about in hell, we could argue that there's a hierarchy. [00:37:27] Of sorts, a light beating versus a severe beating. [00:37:31] If God let the wicked do, they have the heart of wickedness, but if he let them act upon it in every single way, not just total depravity, but utter depravity, then I believe that eternally their punishment would, as bad as it'll be, it would be even more severe. [00:37:47] So there's a sense of which it's merciful even to them, but then it's certainly merciful to everybody else, restraining their outward deeds of wickedness so that for the sake of the wheat, That the tares aren't able to utterly destroy, you know, the wheat for the righteous. [00:38:03] And then, you know, so a shield, it restrains outwardly manifestations of sin. [00:38:08] And then, last, for the righteous, you know, David says, you know, thy law is a light unto my path. [00:38:14] You know, it's a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path. [00:38:17] So the law of God, it doesn't show us the way to salvation necessarily, but it does show us the way from salvation. [00:38:24] Upon being saved, the law of God shows me, you know, because the immediate reaction for the person with a regenerate heart who's been born again by grace alone. [00:38:32] Is man, like you know, 1 John 4 19. [00:38:35] We love because he first loved us. [00:38:36] God, you love me like that freely while I was yet a sinner. [00:38:40] Christ died for me. [00:38:42] You love me like that. [00:38:42] Well, man, I love you back. [00:38:44] We love because you first loved us. [00:38:46] And because I love you back, I want to demonstrate my love, I want to show you my love. [00:38:50] How can I do that if you love me? [00:38:52] Obey my commands, you know. [00:38:54] And then the law of God it's not a path to salvation, a way of earning God's love, but it is a path from salvation, showing us how to reciprocate. [00:39:04] The love of God that we freely received out of not trying to earn salvation, but as a response of gratitude for the free salvation we already have in Christ. [00:39:14] And so the law is a guide, it's a compass. [00:39:17] It shows us how to live, not how to live to be saved, but how to live in light of having been freely saved by grace. [00:39:24] And so, all that being said, that second use of restraining a shield and that first use of revealing sin and all these different things, the law doesn't save. [00:39:35] But it is a tutor. [00:39:37] It doesn't, the law doesn't save, but it shapes and it guides and it restrains and it reveals. [00:39:47] And so, my point is that in a just society with just laws, it's a more conducive backdrop for the brilliance of the gospel to shine more clearly. [00:40:01] Yeah. [00:40:01] Like it's a layup. [00:40:02] And the way I view it is it's like, you know, it's literally, or an alley oop maybe is a more accurate phrase. [00:40:09] It is the Christian prince. [00:40:12] Giving the perfect alley oop for the minister to dunk. [00:40:17] Yeah. [00:40:18] You know what I mean? [00:40:19] Yeah. [00:40:19] I mean, that's great. [00:40:21] So, why would ministers be against that? [00:40:23] Yeah. [00:40:23] It's conditions conducive to conversion, such as Time and Klein's fame. [00:40:28] He has coercive in there, but in this case, yeah. [00:40:31] So, I mean, you're talking about laws, but the customs and cultural Christianity are just social norms. [00:40:40] I guess you could say they're a type of law, but they're maybe like the same genus of law. [00:40:45] That they're not explicit, but they are something that the heart owns. [00:40:51] So, like, an example that's not cultural Christianity would be like throwing trash out of your car. [00:40:56] Right. [00:40:57] So, if you have a McDonald's wrapper in your lap and you throw that out of your car, to me, the act of doing that would feel utterly horrifying for me. [00:41:09] Like, I would have to be at gunpoint to do that. [00:41:12] Is there something about it, just, I guess, from a young age, like you? [00:41:16] I cannot, like, I don't care if I look around, there's no cops, no one's going to see me do it. [00:41:21] I don't care if it's like in the middle of the desert and no one's ever going to see the wrapper. [00:41:25] It's going to burn or whatever, it's just going to fly away. [00:41:27] It would feel horrifying to me because my heart has owned the fact that that is wrong. [00:41:35] So, this is where, like, so law can support that, it can supplement that. [00:41:40] But ultimately, for a society to be virtuous, the heart has to own these things. [00:41:47] And so, from a young age, this is why, like, you know, this is what discipleship does. [00:41:52] This is why I think, in part, what a church is doing when they disciple is not just discipling for eternal life. [00:41:58] They're also discipling such that in their social world, in their life in society, and society broadly will conduce to these norms, that the heart will own the fact that actually it's right to go to church, that actually it's right to do family worship, it's right to do these things in your home and with your friends. [00:42:19] So, that's. [00:42:22] The other thing I want to sing, like the criticism is also syncretism, which that word is usually abused. [00:42:29] But there is some of that that should, I think, we should acknowledge and recognize and condemn. [00:42:35] And that is like, you have like these July 4th church celebrations where there's flags all over the place and there's light shows and there's like blending the lines between, you know, being patriotic versus Christian. [00:42:50] Yeah. [00:42:50] So I think I disagree with like some people say, well, you go to church and it's like this heavenly. [00:42:54] Thing with all the saints from all. [00:42:57] But you pray for your president and you pray for your leaders. [00:43:00] So there is a way in which you in church are still in the context of your nation. [00:43:06] So you still should give thanks for your nation, give thanks and pray for your particular leaders. [00:43:15] But there is something where when you start, I disagree with having an American flag visible in the sanctuary. [00:43:22] You could have it in the back, you could have it out in front of the church. [00:43:24] I've always kind of said that. [00:43:26] Yeah, I think it should be pulpit. [00:43:27] Table font, and that's basically it. [00:43:29] Maybe some plants. [00:43:30] For the record, though, I'm also against having every other nation's flag in your sanctuary because of the missionaries that you support. [00:43:37] Yeah, you don't do that either. === Praying for Nation and Leaders (01:07) === [00:43:39] Yeah. [00:43:40] No, that's not. [00:43:41] Yeah. [00:43:41] So there shouldn't be, you shouldn't have like this conflation of as if America is the sole chosen nation. [00:43:53] And some of that stuff is like not actually what people are up to. [00:43:56] So I don't want to sound like Russell Moore. [00:43:58] But there is that. [00:44:00] So with anything, like I said, there's always a way something good can be abused. [00:44:04] Right. [00:44:05] And so there shouldn't be this. [00:44:08] When you're worshiping God, you give thanks for the blessings of nationhood without, in a way, worshiping the nation in a worship service. [00:44:17] Now, how to do that well, I don't think is that hard to figure out. [00:44:22] But it is something that within cultural Christianity, we have to kind of watch out for. [00:44:26] That's true. [00:44:27] Yep. [00:44:27] Well said. [00:44:28] So, cultural Christianity, in a nutshell, good. [00:44:32] Yeah. [00:44:32] Yeah. [00:44:33] We're for it. [00:44:33] It's good. [00:44:34] We support it. [00:44:35] All right. [00:44:35] Well, thank you guys for tuning in. [00:44:37] And our next episode, can you tease it? [00:44:39] What's going to be the thing? [00:44:40] I think next is going to be about law. [00:44:42] So we touched upon a little bit, but yeah, let's talk about law and what that does. [00:44:45] All right. [00:44:46] Thanks for tuning in.