NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Are All People Really Equal? w Dr. Stephen Wolfe
Aired: 2025-07-25
Duration: 01:13:32


=== Equality and Inequality (14:22) ===

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[00:00:16]  You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.
[00:00:21]  We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.
[00:00:30]  In today's episode, Dr. Stephen Wolfe, who is the author of The Case for Christian Nationalism, will be joining the show.
[00:00:39]  We're going to be talking about an article that he recently published through American Reformer in response to John Carter, pseudonym, an author who essentially is saying that egalitarianism and everything that it's produced is ultimately the fault of Christianity, that rooted in the doctrine of the Imago Dei, that all people are made in the image of God.
[00:01:01]  That's where we've got.
[00:01:03]  Stemming from that, forced equality for all peoples, men and women, individuals, and even nationality, different peoples from around the world, everybody being equal, everybody being the same.
[00:01:16]  So he titled his article The Imago DEI, which is clever.
[00:01:22]  I think that's fair to say.
[00:01:24]  Basically, saying that Christianity is the source, the fault of all of our BLM nonsense, all of our DEI nonsense, and Stephen Wolfe did a good job.
[00:01:37]  Responding to that, showing that this is the product of liberalism, but not historic Christianity.
[00:01:42]  Now, I understand why there may be some confusion because Christianity, in many cases today, is nothing more than liberalism, 20th century liberalism, walking around in a Christian skin suit.
[00:01:54]  But understanding historic Christianity and the distinctions are absolutely vital.
[00:02:01]  Sadly, there are a growing number, I think, of people on the right wing who are antithetical.
[00:02:09]  To Christianity, because they see Christianity as the culprit for what brought us here today.
[00:02:16]  But it's not.
[00:02:17]  Liberalism and Christianity, historic Christianity, remain distinct, and that's what we'll be discussing in this episode.
[00:02:25]  This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored Republic and Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and our generous donors.
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[00:02:50]  Let's dive in.
[00:03:01]  All right.
[00:03:02]  Dr. Stephen Wolf, thanks for joining us.
[00:03:04]  Go ahead and introduce yourself and tell us why you wrote this article.
[00:03:10]  Yeah.
[00:03:10]  So I'm Stephen Wolf, author of Case for Christian Nationalism and all that.
[00:03:15]  Yeah.
[00:03:15]  So for this article, I was actually asked to write it by someone, an American reformer.
[00:03:21]  I had not heard of John Carter or his blog, but apparently it was an article that was well read within our circles.
[00:03:29]  And it's a subject that I've studied a lot and thought about.
[00:03:32]  And so I thought I would give it.
[00:03:34]  Give it a review.
[00:03:35]  I think it's very important to.
[00:03:37]  I do, I actually, in a way, I agree with his concern that there is an overemphasis upon equality, egalitarianism, broadly understood among Christians today.
[00:03:52]  And we use language like infinite dignity and stuff like that.
[00:03:55]  And so I thought it was an opportunity to say, actually, it's not equality or inequality.
[00:04:02]  It's actually you can affirm both.
[00:04:04]  You can affirm that there's a fundamental equality.
[00:04:07]  Between man, and yet also at the same time, logically and coherently affirm that there is, you can have inequality in various ways.
[00:04:17]  And so, what I was really trying to do was, in a way, less respond to him, even though I did, but actually try to bring this information and these arguments to Christians so that they don't have to fall in, you know, assume that this talk of the imago Dei and image of God and all that necessitates a type of.
[00:04:40]  Modern understanding of equality.
[00:04:43]  Right.
[00:04:44]  So that's what I was trying to do.
[00:04:45]  Great.
[00:04:46]  So I think for this first segment, what we'd like to do is get a little bit, share some of the quotations from the article by John Carter and steel man his position a little bit, because I think some of his thinking does accord with nature and the antithesis to his thinking that we would not categorize as being historically Christian.
[00:05:08]  But the antithesis to his thinking is, I think, Much of the cause of many problems that we're currently experiencing in the West.
[00:05:14]  So, Wesley Todd is going to share some of the quotations from this article, and we'll all kind of respond together.
[00:05:22]  Yeah, I think this is an important argument to be aware of.
[00:05:26]  For yourself, Dr. Wolf, for us, certainly, we spend a majority of our time defending scripture and our exegesis of it from the left.
[00:05:34]  So, that would be those that would attempt to take the Bible, and especially the New Testament, maybe the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount, and make prescriptions that would say things such as borders or strict immigration policy.
[00:05:45]  Would be unbiblical.
[00:05:46]  I remember a post from years ago where a woman claimed Jesus was a brown skinned Jewish refugee who hung out with sex workers and advocated for universal health care.
[00:05:55]  So she's going in and she's attempting right there to try to rewrite scripture to kind of fit into her narrative.
[00:06:00]  And we spent a lot of time saying, no, here's what the Bible itself actually teaches.
[00:06:04]  But this other attack that John Carter kind of has here, it's not so much as I see it, an attack based on the scripture itself, but it's based on kind of the consequences and what came out of.
[00:06:16]  A Christian Europe.
[00:06:17]  And so instead of going to the Bible and saying, well, the Bible advocates for all of these really leftist, really progressive ideas, we'll say the Bible says what it says, but the people that took those ideas and then went on and applied them created the 20th century liberalism that we have today.
[00:06:31]  And that's doing a lot of damage, that has destroyed and flattened nature across.
[00:06:35]  And so their dislike for Christianity comes from, I think Christianity is actually kind of the foundation and the root of this.
[00:06:42]  John Carter, in his article, and credit to him, this is a long, well written article.
[00:06:46]  This is something that he spent a lot of time on and that he developed, and I think you would agree because you did so.
[00:06:51]  It deserves to be taken seriously.
[00:06:53]  You can find his Substack postcards from Barsoom.
[00:06:56]  Barsoom is spelled B A R S O O M.
[00:07:00]  But he says this in his article.
[00:07:01]  Again, the article is titled The Imago Dei.
[00:07:05]  He says, When all the verbiage of centuries of accumulated political theory and moral philosophy is peeled away, equality is, in its origin, a fundamentally theological proposition.
[00:07:18]  He also says that equality has, for so long, been understood as an absolute good, both an underlying spiritual reality of the human condition and, somewhat paradoxically, an ideal for society to strive towards.
[00:07:31]  That the assumption that equality is both real and positive goes largely unquestioned, including by many of those who oppose the idea's destructive practical consequences.
[00:07:41]  And so he says, We all take it for granted that equality is good.
[00:07:45]  I'm here to challenge that.
[00:07:46]  And he roots it in his article that it's Christianity and theology that initially give rise to this idea that equality is an ideal to be achieved, it's something that's good in society.
[00:07:58]  And so because of that, he goes and turns around and says, And the blame for that, its theological claim, Would be Christianity.
[00:08:05]  Now, Stephen, we want to handle both because, like you said, there's a truth.
[00:08:09]  It's not either or.
[00:08:10]  There is both equality and inequality.
[00:08:14]  And so he spends a ton of time advocating, in some senses, for the inequality, which we can handle in the second segment.
[00:08:21]  But there is inequality that the Bible and especially Christian tradition, since he's arguing the Christian tradition resulted in destructive effects, but even the Christian tradition, that it does come in and say, yeah, there actually is equality, but we root it in the Bible.
[00:08:34]  And it doesn't destroy on the latter half the inequality that we can easily observe too.
[00:08:41]  Yeah, I'd say, first of all, the notion of human equality does not actually originate from Christian theologians.
[00:08:48]  You find it, I mean, you can find it elsewhere, but you can find it most pronounced within the Roman Stoics.
[00:08:54]  So Cicero, Seneca, and others have already affirmed this type of equality, fundamental equality.
[00:09:01]  Cicero talks about man almost as a divine image.
[00:09:05]  And he places that in the realm of reason.
[00:09:09]  And so it actually predates the idea of human equality, kind of predates the Christian era.
[00:09:17]  And so, and then even when you get into it, I would question that it's purely a theological proposition, strictly speaking, because you actually have a lot of people in the early modern period emphasizing equality actually central to their political system.
[00:09:32]  Take like Hobbes, Locke, but they would ground equality, I mean, particularly Hobbes, he grounds his notion of equality really in.
[00:09:39]  Experience.
[00:09:40]  You go around and you talk to people, and you realize there's varying levels of capabilities and gifts and all these sorts of things.
[00:09:47]  You come to realize there actually is a more foundational, basic equality across mankind.
[00:09:52]  So, within the Western tradition broadly, and both pre Christian and Christian, there is a recognition of some type of equality among men that is not technically theological.
[00:10:07]  Now, you can find the basis of equality.
[00:10:12]  In theological propositions, but not only within there.
[00:10:15]  So I would kind of push back against that.
[00:10:19]  And certainly others, such as certain enlightenment figures in German philosophy, would also say that there's a fundamental equality rooted mainly in the faculty of reason that distinguishes us from non rational animals.
[00:10:35]  So yeah, and go ahead.
[00:10:41]  I was going to say equality under a law was a big thing that you made the point on.
[00:10:45]  If you don't have equality under law, it'd be very strange, and it actually would be unjust by biblical standard to have a law that applies to only one type of people, especially as it refers to criminal law, but a different law for others.
[00:10:56]  And for the record, I mean, just five days ago, we were talking about foreigners holding public office.
[00:11:01]  We don't think those that are born in a country other than the United States should be allowed to hold public office.
[00:11:06]  So we recognize certain applications of the law.
[00:11:08]  They're just different.
[00:11:09]  People are born different places.
[00:11:11]  But when it comes down to it, as far as equal treatment, especially when it comes to criminal penalties, one of the points that you make is that if we're really going to say people aren't unequal, then the law itself would have to be distributed and split potentially into a number of categories.
[00:11:26]  A law for these people that are morally culpable and upright in character.
[00:11:29]  And then for these individuals, well, we can't really count on them.
[00:11:32]  And so you make a big point about under the law, especially.
[00:11:36]  And for a long time, when you spoke of Roman society, the Greeks, they certainly recognized you have to have a law that applies to everyone.
[00:11:43]  Right.
[00:11:45]  Yeah.
[00:11:45]  And really, I mean, this goes down to moral equality as well.
[00:11:48]  So there is a fundamental law that all human beings follow in the Christian tradition.
[00:11:53]  It's called, you know, often called the moral law.
[00:11:57]  And in both pre Christian and Christian, it was called the natural law.
[00:12:00]  So, there is the same standard law, but that comes in principles.
[00:12:04]  So, the natural law, you can break it up in different kinds of orders of it.
[00:12:08]  But when it's actually applied in society in concrete ways that actually say do this or don't do that, it comes in the form of being very particular.
[00:12:18]  So, some people groups, for whatever reason, may need different laws.
[00:12:24]  They'll need different laws.
[00:12:25]  Sometimes they actually need, we might say, stronger governance than others.
[00:12:30]  And so, you find And I mean, you find in the American tradition in the 19th century, laws tend to be more relaxed.
[00:12:39]  And that was part of the idea of the spirit of Anglo Protestantism, which kind of gave birth to this country.
[00:12:45]  And so we can flourish as free people in liberty with order under law.
[00:12:51]  Now, but in political systems in the past and other places around the world today, you have different laws, sometimes applied, more laws applied with penalties that could be harsher.
[00:13:04]  So, there can be actual different orders, different ways of life.
[00:13:08]  And all of those laws and customs can conform to the natural law with its civil application and yet be different because the circumstances and the people themselves, for whatever reason, could be different.
[00:13:21]  So, you could have, I think you could say that in civil law as bodies of law, you could have some laws that are by necessity, given the characteristics of the people, that you could say that it would be less free.
[00:13:38]  And would restrain liberty more because they don't have a sort of tradition of self governance and order.
[00:13:47]  And so you can't have equality in that sense, I guess.
[00:13:51]  You could say that some people will have less liberty for that reason, other people will have more.
[00:13:56]  And that's just recognized.
[00:13:57]  I mean, the founders themselves even criticized France at the time.
[00:14:01]  This is the 1780s, 1790s.
[00:14:04]  They're saying that even the Frenchmen are not ready for self government in the form of American liberties.
[00:14:12]  Because they just didn't have the tradition of it.
[00:14:15]  And so, for that reason, they weren't ready and would result in a sort of murderous revolution as it did.
[00:14:20]  So, anyway, Stephen, yeah.

=== Citizenship and Liberty (11:33) ===

[00:14:23]  With that, what about?
[00:14:25]  Let me throw a couple of hypotheticals at you because I completely agree in terms of place and time.
[00:14:31]  So, like different time periods and different nations that, like, okay, you know, like if all of a sudden Haiti sets up, you know, Christian nationalism, praise God, that's great, you know, and let's say Haitians are.
[00:14:45]  Actually, getting saved through, you know, word and sacrament in the church, and they have Christian civil magistrates.
[00:14:52]  Well, given some of their history, I would say, yeah, they probably need to be exercising a little stricter governance for a season than another nation that's a little bit more well ordered and has a longer heritage and trajectory of self governance.
[00:15:12]  I completely agree with that.
[00:15:13]  And I also agree with laws changing over time.
[00:15:18]  The immutable, transcendent law of God remains.
[00:15:21]  Precisely that, immutable, it's unchanging.
[00:15:24]  But in terms of its specific, particular applications, that does change.
[00:15:29]  That changes with technological innovation.
[00:15:32]  We're going to have new civil codes and restrictions and guidelines as we move into more and more artificial intelligence.
[00:15:42]  I mean, it's essentially at some level, like it's likened to moving from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age.
[00:15:49]  It's just a different world.
[00:15:51]  The invention of cars, right?
[00:15:53]  Well, now we need.
[00:15:54]  Laws, it's the same, you know, immutable law of God to defend and preserve and protect the sanctity and dignity of human life, but now applied to driving on the road.
[00:16:06]  So, seat belts and speed limits and these kinds of things.
[00:16:08]  So, that happens in terms of a different set of laws for two different nations, different places, and perhaps different sets of laws for the same nation, but at different time periods.
[00:16:21]  What about this?
[00:16:23]  A different set of laws for different groups of people in the same time period in the same nation.
[00:16:33]  Would that be just?
[00:16:37]  Well, yeah.
[00:16:39]  I mean, we actually kind of already have that because we have the federal system.
[00:16:43]  So that would work for you have federal laws, state laws, county ordinances.
[00:16:49]  So we kind of already have that.
[00:16:54]  If you distinguish between citizen and just legal resident, there'd be different laws.
[00:17:01]  I think, though, that if you are true citizens of a nation, there should be equality under that law.
[00:17:11]  Yeah, I think so too.
[00:17:13]  Because otherwise, you run into the risk of, I mean, I guess you could say, I mean, every law can have, like, on the margins, it can affect people, it shouldn't.
[00:17:23]  So, yeah, it's a challenging question, but the historic principle is equality under the law going back to the Romans.
[00:17:31]  And if you're going to admit people as citizens, then as citizens of a republic, you are under that body of law.
[00:17:39]  And so this just emphasizes that who you're going to admit as citizens is actually very, very crucial to your society.
[00:17:45]  Exactly.
[00:17:46]  But I think if you distinguish citizen and resident alien, or even if it's a permanent resident, you can apply different laws differently.
[00:17:55]  But otherwise, it strikes me as an arbitrary distinction.
[00:18:00]  And I also don't, I'm not even sure if it's even required.
[00:18:06]  To do that, because if you have a certain law, if you have a certain, you know, people in mind with a law, because within that society, there's a, within, you know, those people, there's a higher, there's a prevalence of some sort of disorder, you know, social, civil disorder.
[00:18:25]  And you're targeting principally them in that law, and it comes to apply to everyone else.
[00:18:32]  Well, it just means that the people who don't have that disorder aren't going to be affected by the law.
[00:18:37]  Right.
[00:18:37]  So if you have some people who are exactly, you could still have the law universally.
[00:18:42]  Yeah, you can have a universal law.
[00:18:43]  And if it comes to target a certain disorder, certain problem, then the people who generally don't contribute to that problem aren't actually, the force of that law is not actually being applied to them.
[00:18:55]  Now, there are cases where, I mean, but to be fair, there are cases where the laws do come to affect you.
[00:19:01]  So if there's a small number of people on a certain road that drive too fast and 90% of the people actually drive safely and you have to reduce the speed limit, that comes to affect everyone in a negative way.
[00:19:14]  There is that.
[00:19:15]  And then, but yeah, there's other ways to seek to reform the various disorders that don't actually require two sets of different laws.
[00:19:26]  Right.
[00:19:26]  So, real quick, let me ask you in terms of citizenship, and then we'll go back to some more of this article and some of the citations.
[00:19:34]  But in terms of citizenship, because I agree with you, I think that for those who are, you use the phrase true citizens, for those who are true citizens of any, you know, Body politic, any nation, they, yeah, I think they should be equal under the law.
[00:19:50]  And if certain swaths of the population are more affected by that law, fine, but it's still a universal law for all true citizens.
[00:20:00]  And for those who don't really have, they're not contributing to lawlessness in that particular way, well, then no harm, no foul, right?
[00:20:07]  They can still have the law and they'll be unaffected by it.
[00:20:10]  So I think that's great.
[00:20:11]  But in terms of, I don't know if I've ever asked your opinion.
[00:20:15]  So we've talked about it.
[00:20:17]  Several times on our show, in terms of, you know, if we were king for the day, you know, or whatever, how citizenship would work like, who would be considered true citizens?
[00:20:28]  What would the standard be?
[00:20:30]  And I'm just curious to hear your opinion.
[00:20:34]  If, you know, like, what do you think the ideal for America as it is today?
[00:20:39]  Not America, you know, 250 years ago, but when you look at, you know, who we are today and the caliber of people that we have.
[00:20:48]  Today, who I personally, to show my hand, I think are far less capable, all of us on the whole are just less capable of self governance than our forefathers were.
[00:21:01]  And so, when you look at just who the people are today, some of the problems that we have today, what would you hold as the criteria for that true citizenship category?
[00:21:15]  Yeah, so different places can do it differently.
[00:21:17]  So, I don't think there's an absolute way that you must grant citizenship certain people.
[00:21:23]  I mean, Aristotle and Aquinas both mentioned the idea that a resident who is granted permanent status, their family cannot achieve citizenship until the third generation.
[00:21:34]  I think that's a very, very good policy.
[00:21:36]  And I have nothing against that.
[00:21:39]  And I think that would probably be good for the United States.
[00:21:42]  And the reason behind it is that you have a sort of buy in.
[00:21:45]  By the third generation, you are connected to that people in that place.
[00:21:50]  If you come into, yeah, I've said before that if I were to marry some Hungarian and move to Hungary, I might love Hungarian culture.
[00:21:59]  I might love its history.
[00:22:01]  But in the end, when I feel home, it's going to be America, right?
[00:22:05]  But then my grandchildren, you'd think, because they are kind of removed from my sort of displacement and actually grew up there and all that, then they would feel connection to Hungary.
[00:22:18]  So they would then be granted citizenship.
[00:22:20]  So that's my view.
[00:22:23]  And I think that would be a good policy.
[00:22:24]  But yeah, but if you're already a citizen, I think if your children are citizens by default.
[00:22:32]  And I think birthright citizenship is absurd, meaning, like, if you're a foreigner and have a child here, that's utterly absurd.
[00:22:39]  So that should be taken away.
[00:22:40]  I think dual citizenship should be taken away.
[00:22:42]  I think that's a bad policy.
[00:22:44]  It's an absurd policy.
[00:22:45]  The idea of citizenship itself is that you're loyal to that place.
[00:22:49]  And if you have dual citizenship, then you're dual loyal.
[00:22:53]  You have dual loyalty to two places.
[00:22:55]  And usually, how that works, not all the time, but usually, how that works is it's not the United States that is your first love.
[00:23:02]  It's actually the other place you don't live.
[00:23:05]  And oftentimes, that's the place you send money to.
[00:23:08]  That's the whole reason you're here.
[00:23:10]  You treat your second home.
[00:23:12]  As an economic zone by which you make money and you ship it back.
[00:23:15]  And other reasons.
[00:23:16]  I agree with you, but I'm going to have to ask you to.
[00:23:20]  Yeah, I agree with you 100%.
[00:23:21]  But for, you know, since we're live streaming for the sake of the audience, I'm going to have to ask you to cool it with the anti Semitism.
[00:23:29]  Just kidding.
[00:23:30]  Yeah, well, that would offend a lot of people for that reason.
[00:23:32]  But I think it's absolutely central that you have, in terms of your earthly loyalties, you are loyal to a single nation.
[00:23:43]  And for people who have migrated here lawfully, And they seek to make this their residence.
[00:23:50]  I think they have a duty as far as they can to try to conform themselves to the ways of the place that they move to, and that the children that they have and their grandchildren would be encouraged to adopt the good ways.
[00:24:02]  If there's evil customs, you don't adopt evil customs, but you adopt the good customs of the place you move to.
[00:24:08]  So there's nothing wrong with people moving to different places when they're allowed legally.
[00:24:13]  It's that they have the moral duty to begin conforming themselves.
[00:24:17]  And their children, grandchildren to the ways of the place, such that this is home.
[00:24:23]  When they land on the airplane and they look out and you see your people, you feel a sort of relief of now I'm in the place where there's common expectations, customs, and a sense of common history.
[00:24:37]  And this is what you have.
[00:24:38]  So, yeah, I think that's part of moral duty.
[00:24:42]  Okay, great.
[00:24:43]  All right, let's just check.
[00:24:44]  I mean, to like, oh, yeah, go ahead, Wes.
[00:24:46]  I figured I was going to talk about more like equality stuff.
[00:24:50]  Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
[00:24:51]  Is the title of your article is Defense of Christian Equality.
[00:24:54]  Lord knows we've had 40 years of that.
[00:24:55]  So we'll go to our first commercial break and come back and talk about that.
[00:24:59]  America is a country that was founded for the purpose of allowing Christians to do their duty before God, not to have their consciences ruled by the doctrines and commandments of men.
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[00:25:23]  We want to find manufacturing businesses and use them to make sure that we can maintain our capacity to do things here.
[00:25:29]  Reef Fund, Christian Capital, boldly deployed.
[00:25:34]  In the future, it may be hard to persuade people that what happened starting in the spring of 2020 really did happen.
[00:25:42]  A fake pandemic was the signal that one morning began the foreclosure on everything that had, until the evening before, been central to the idea.
[00:25:53]  Of democratic constitutional republics.

=== The Future of Democracy (02:21) ===

[00:25:56]  The most shocking thing was not so much that this started to happen, but that almost no one seemed to object to it happening.
[00:26:04]  Almost no one sought to defend the rights and liberties being overturned.
[00:26:09]  Leftists clamored for more and more tyranny, while most conservatives fell silent.
[00:26:15]  In this book, The Abolition of Reality, Irish dissident leader John Waters describes not merely what happened, but the meaning of what happened.
[00:26:24]  In what may well be judged by history as the most heinous crime of all time.
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[00:26:37]  Get it from Western Front Books at the link below.
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=== Acting in Dignity (15:05) ===

[00:28:17]  Ordo amoris et solideo gloria.
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[00:28:42]  Again, that's st.stjohns.academy to learn more today.
[00:28:50]  So, welcome back, Stephen.
[00:28:51]  I'll go right to you.
[00:28:53]  We've covered Equality, equality under law.
[00:28:56]  But what are the ways in which, as a Christian, we can defend the areas and the times and the senses in which men are not equal?
[00:29:06]  Yeah, I mean, let's start with the image of God and just the kind of the sort of metaphysics that kind of undergirded a lot of Christian thinking.
[00:29:17]  Really, when you think of like the dignity of man, we have to understand that the dignity of man is rooted in the sort of being that God created us.
[00:29:27]  Created us as.
[00:29:28]  So it's not as if God created this, like this, you know, 100 pounds of flesh or sometimes more, and say that that thing has dignity.
[00:29:39]  It's not as if to say that, you know, you're the image of God and God's just declaring that and that's it.
[00:29:46]  Actually, God, we are the image of God by and we have dignity because of the sort of faculties that we have, the way that God created us.
[00:29:57]  We are, when we say we have human dignity, Dignity is actually a term of relation in a way.
[00:30:04]  So, if we have more dignity than the non rational animals because we have reason, because we have understanding, because we have contemplation, because we can worship God, none of the other animals actually have that ability.
[00:30:17]  But God equipped us with that, and so we have higher dignity relative to the animals for that very reason.
[00:30:26]  And what this means then is, I think we have then speak of a like a passive dignity, like that is.
[00:30:35]  We can encounter another fellow man and we can consider him made in the image of God.
[00:30:42]  There's certain duties we have to that, just basic human duties.
[00:30:46]  They can have a claim to life.
[00:30:48]  You can't strike them or kill them.
[00:30:51]  They have a right to worship God properly, no right to hinder them in their worship of God.
[00:30:56]  So there's certain natural rights that they have that are built in given the very sort of thing they are and to pursue their end, their actual purpose as created.
[00:31:06]  And so we ought to recognize that.
[00:31:08]  And when we actually exercise those abilities, when we actually think rightly, when we act morally, when we worship God properly, we're actually fulfilling our human.
[00:31:19]  We are, in a way, completing or perfecting ourselves in action.
[00:31:23]  And the highest thing you could do is worship God.
[00:31:25]  So, actually, people don't realize this, but the highest expression of human dignity, the highest expression of our elevation above all animals is our worship of God on Sunday.
[00:31:36]  So, when you're thinking that when you're Sunday worshiping this Sunday, you can think, wow, we are actually imaging like the, the, It's the whole man because we're acknowledging and worshiping God.
[00:31:47]  But what this means is, I touched on passive dignity.
[00:31:50]  There is a way in which man is actively dignified or acts in dignity.
[00:31:56]  And so, if you commit immorality or if you obey your pure instincts that go against reason, or if you worship false gods and worship idols, you're actually acting below your calling as a human being, you're acting without dignity.
[00:32:14]  And so, and a lot of, I mean, Calvin, a lot of people, because of the order of being, because it's, you know, animals and then man, animals, they just obey instinct.
[00:32:26]  They just obey the sort of impulses of nature.
[00:32:29]  And because God created them to do that, they typically get by.
[00:32:33]  We were not created to only obey our instinct, we're there to obey our higher faculties.
[00:32:39]  But when we don't, that is, in other words, we are to bring our soul into order by reason of our higher faculties.
[00:32:49]  But when we don't, when we actually obey our lusts, when we obey certain impulses that are directed towards evil ends, we're actually acting animalistic.
[00:32:59]  We're acting lower on the order of being.
[00:33:03]  And so you'll see people, Richard Hooker said this, and John Calvin said this, Matthew Hale said this.
[00:33:10]  All these guys in the reformer broader Protestant tradition said that actually some people behave in ways akin to animals.
[00:33:20]  And so that's really the inequality of a moral life.
[00:33:25]  And what this means then is the people who, by habit or evil custom or whatever it is, if they have that more, if they start behaving sort of akin to animals, they need far greater restraint.
[00:33:39]  I mean, there is the founders would say, John Witherspoon said that laws don't have much to do with the moral law.
[00:33:48]  Like, if you have a people who obey the moral law, you don't actually need a whole lot of civil law because people are doing it.
[00:33:54]  But the moment people in mass begin to simply glorify in their just base impulses, they actually degrade themselves.
[00:34:05]  And in order to prevent or restrain that degradation and harm they might inflict upon others and themselves, you actually need further restraint upon them, usually through civil means.
[00:34:18]  So there is that.
[00:34:19]  So again, there is a fundamental equality of faculty.
[00:34:22]  We have these things that we can, by which we can act with dignity.
[00:34:28]  And so there's a passive dignity owed our fellow man.
[00:34:30]  So that's a sort of like natural equality, you might say.
[00:34:34]  But that doesn't mean that every action is an expression of being human.
[00:34:39]  In fact, it can be an expression of subhumanity.
[00:34:42]  Not that they are in themselves subhuman, but in their actions and obeying their lusts, which is true for all of us.
[00:34:48]  I mean, it's a good way to actually reflect upon your sanctification.
[00:34:53]  If you're obeying your lust against the moral law, you're actually acting like, you know, some wild animal, acting like a beast.
[00:35:02]  And you ought not do that.
[00:35:04]  So if you act rightly, you're actually obeying the moral law and you're acting humanly and imaging God.
[00:35:10]  So, anyway, that's how you can affirm a basic natural equality of faculty, a basic universal dignity of being.
[00:35:20]  Yet, that doesn't translate into action itself.
[00:35:24]  So, some people actually act in higher dignity than others because they are conforming to the moral law by means of good reason.
[00:35:34]  Cool.
[00:35:34]  That's helpful.
[00:35:36]  Do us a favor.
[00:35:38]  Your audio about every 10 seconds or so gets weird.
[00:35:41]  So maybe unplug your microphone all the way and then plug it back in.
[00:35:46]  Wow.
[00:35:48]  We did hear everything you said, though.
[00:35:49]  Yeah, we pretty much got it all every now and then.
[00:35:51]  The words were bad.
[00:35:52]  What were you saying, Nathan?
[00:35:54]  You didn't finish your thought.
[00:35:55]  Hopefully it's better now.
[00:35:56]  I would just say, too, I think even of its demonstration at New York City Pride event, for example, the image of God is on display less.
[00:36:07]  I think of the old sermon from Gerhardus Voss on Hosea, where The God is described as the one who gives life, and he's a rich tree laden with fruit.
[00:36:15]  Well, if you go to New York City Pride, what you'll see is a lot of people there who have taken all the possible means by which they could have been productive and strong and modest and actually had children and raised them.
[00:36:25]  They've hacked them apart and bound them and destroyed them.
[00:36:28]  They put them through the chipper.
[00:36:30]  And so there are people that categorically, as you mentioned, as far as rationality, they are human beings.
[00:36:35]  They possess the image in some sense, but their reflection and demonstration of it has been completely.
[00:36:41]  Destroyed.
[00:36:42]  And then you could compare that to a nobleman.
[00:36:44]  I think of the psalm where it says, Your wife will be a fruitful vine and your children will circle you around a table.
[00:36:50]  Is the image of God better seen, better reflected, better glorified?
[00:36:54]  Is God Himself made much of much more with a man who runs his affairs well, who leads his family well in the Christian faith, who has a wife and children?
[00:37:03]  I think we'd all agree, yes.
[00:37:04]  None of that violating categorically possessing the rationality that separates man from beast, but on a continuous scale, so to speak, so not binary, yes.
[00:37:15]  No, but continually higher or lower, there is a way in which man, by his actions, I know, Stephen, in your article, you root it in that man, his actions, what he does, man and his actions can, to greater and lesser degrees, reflect the image of God that's been vested in him.
[00:37:30]  Right.
[00:37:30]  A godly Christian marriage between a man and a woman with a desire for children and loving them and caring for them is going to image the eternal marriage between Christ and the church.
[00:37:45]  In a way that a homosexual, you know, alleged marriage between two men does not, um, does not image or reflect or manifest, uh, the marriage between Christ and the church.
[00:37:57]  And so, in terms of our behaviors and actions, I think we all agree with that.
[00:38:02]  I like, I'm sure some lib will, you know, maybe push back.
[00:38:09]  But I mean, just the language of, you know, even if you're in a fairly liberal Christian church, people, you know, just it's common language of saying, like, I, you know, I want to live in such a way that I bring God the most possible glory.
[00:38:24]  You know, I think of, you know, the scripture, like, let your good deeds be seen before men that they may glorify your Father in heaven, not for your own praise, right?
[00:38:36]  Because in Matthew 6, Jesus talks about doing certain things, certain righteous, virtuous things.
[00:38:41]  In secret, to where you know they're seen by your heavenly father alone, and then you will surely receive a reward from him.
[00:38:49]  But there's other contexts of scripture that talk about living publicly, public life in such a way that it's visible and virtuous, so that that might bring glory to God.
[00:39:01]  And the antithesis of that, you know, living a public life that's filled with vice and shame, I think we would all agree that that brings less glory to God.
[00:39:13]  The word that is in scripture, scripture talks about the concept of bringing reproach, that word reproach, to the name of Christ.
[00:39:21]  So there's a way of imaging him more or less, at least in the category of our behaviors.
[00:39:28]  Is that kind of what you were saying, Stephen?
[00:39:32]  That's absolutely it.
[00:39:33]  I mean, it's the rhetoric of dignity.
[00:39:36]  This is where, you know, getting back to John Carter, where he's right that, and we've all seen it.
[00:39:40]  Hopefully, my mic works okay, by the way.
[00:39:44]  You see, like, these homosexual marriages, and then you see some Christians say, Well, I just don't agree with homosexuality, but I want to affirm the dignity of the people involved, which is, again, ridiculous.
[00:39:56]  It's that only makes sense if dignity is just this like fiat stamp of value that's disconnected from the nature of the thing, right?
[00:40:06]  And I guess I suppose God could do that, but that's not what he did.
[00:40:10]  Like, he created us with the faculties that distinguish us from beasts.
[00:40:15]  We are to use the faculties that he gave us, those higher faculties, to set in order the various of our being.
[00:40:23]  And so, a homosexual union, in fact, is not setting those things in order.
[00:40:27]  And so, for that reason, you're not affirming the dignity by showing up to the wedding.
[00:40:32]  You're actually affirming this sort of giving over to debased lusts.
[00:40:41]  And so, you're not actually affirming dignity at all.
[00:40:43]  You're doing the opposite.
[00:40:45]  And so, I think that's important to get that.
[00:40:47]  I think, I really think that it's.
[00:40:49]  I mean, I've said it a couple, I mean, two or three times, but I think it's really important to, and this is something Christians don't think about, because we've been, we have this like post Kantian understanding of dignity, which isn't even Kantian in itself, because he would talk about reason and he was against homosexuality and all that.
[00:41:05]  But it's again, our dignity is tied to the very sort of being that we are.
[00:41:13]  And when we are that being as intended, we are acting in dignity.
[00:41:17]  And if we're not, we're not acting in dignity.
[00:41:20]  And so that means that, yeah, like someone doing what they want or giving the liberty to into license and acting immorally in society, you don't have you don't affirm their dignity by tolerating it or expressly celebrating it or whatever you want to do.
[00:41:38]  That's not how any of this works.
[00:41:39]  You either there is no sort of divine fiat stamp of value, your very value is tied in with your how God made you.
[00:41:49]  So, in what way then, because I agree with all that, and I think that's well said, but in what way?
[00:41:55]  Is there an equality?
[00:41:56]  So, we already talked about equality under the law for citizens of a particular place in a particular time.
[00:42:02]  So, these citizens in the same nation at the same time period should have the same laws, especially when it comes to criminality and those kinds of things.
[00:42:14]  So, in that sense, we have an equality.
[00:42:19]  But there's also a sense where, in the sight of God, in the eternal, ultimate sense, we would say that all people are made in the image of God and therefore, in terms of their eternal dignity and worth.
[00:42:35]  Would we agree with equality in that sense?
[00:42:38]  I know that I always have while maintaining for myself, I would say, yeah, all people, right?
[00:42:44]  That person with Down syndrome is equal in the sight of God and precious, and we should care for them and be respectful toward them and love them.
[00:42:56]  But I don't want someone with Down syndrome to be the president of the United States.
[00:43:02]  I want to vote for them to hold public office because they're just simply not capable.
[00:43:06]  Of doing this.
[00:43:07]  So I acknowledge that we're not equal at all when it comes to our gifts, our capacity, intelligence, strength, all those different things.
[00:43:18]  People are not equal.
[00:43:19]  And for me, I've kind of broken it up into three primary categories.

=== Qualitative Distinctions (12:21) ===

[00:43:22]  Like I've said at the New Christendom Conference, I think that one of the great enemies of historic Christianity in the church is liberalism, especially the more later modern expressions of liberalism.
[00:43:35]  And kind of if liberalism was the car, the engine to me seems to be.
[00:43:39]  The heart of literalism seems to be egalitarianism.
[00:43:42]  And then when most Christians think of egalitarianism, even the, you know, quote unquote, conservative Christians, like, well, I'm not an egalitarian, you know, because we have male elders, you know, and then, of course, they're, you know, functionally egalitarian because, you know, the wives of all the elders make the decision and they have female, you know, deacons and they have women teaching in every virtual capacity you could think of outside of maybe the Lord's Day.
[00:44:08]  But even then, they might concede when it comes to Mother's Day, Sunday, you know.
[00:44:12]  Anyways, blah, blah, blah.
[00:44:12]  And we've had those arguments a million times, and that's neither here nor there.
[00:44:16]  That's not the purpose of this episode.
[00:44:18]  I'm sure I'll have those arguments again in the future.
[00:44:21]  But my point is to say that most conservative Christians, if they even acknowledge egalitarianism as a negative at all, it's only in its effects in this one category, this first category of male and female.
[00:44:36]  But for me, I really think that, you know, and I'm sure there are other categories that we could flesh out as well, but.
[00:44:42]  I think three big ones would be male and female.
[00:44:46]  Men and women are not the same.
[00:44:48]  I think I said at the New Christendom Conference that Johnny and Jackie are not the same.
[00:44:54]  And then also at an individual level, Johnny and Jimmy are not the same.
[00:44:59]  So even though they're both male, Johnny may be a statesman and Jimmy may be an incredible plumber and probably make more money than Johnny.
[00:45:10]  But he couldn't be a statesman.
[00:45:12]  He doesn't have the faculty and the gifting for that.
[00:45:15]  And that's okay.
[00:45:16]  But then that's the second category.
[00:45:17]  So sex, individuals.
[00:45:21]  So male and female are not the same.
[00:45:22]  Individuals are not the same.
[00:45:23]  And then last, you could say it like this male and female are not the same.
[00:45:28]  And then people, individuals, people are not the same.
[00:45:31]  But then peoples, collectively, peoples, ethnicities or nationalities or whatever word you want to use are also not the same, which is why we're not fungible widgets and we shouldn't import 500,000 Haitians into America and.
[00:45:48]  Grant them citizenship.
[00:45:49]  And, you know, if the Haitians, you know, develop a taste for apple pie, we say, well, they're just as American as, you know, you and me.
[00:45:57]  No, no, you're not.
[00:45:59]  And so I think those three levels with gender, with individuals, and with peoples, people, individuals, and peoples, nations, however you want to describe that, there are differences.
[00:46:13]  So, in that sense, I feel like, no, it's, and distinctions, we just have to acknowledge, and I don't feel like there's anything to apologize, and I don't want to be cute and I don't want to be deceptive.
[00:46:23]  Distinctions pretty much always introduce some degree of hierarchy.
[00:46:29]  So, when we start acknowledging distinctions, then there are among those distinctions scales of better and worse.
[00:46:40]  Like this person is stronger.
[00:46:42]  Stronger is better than weaker.
[00:46:44]  This person is smarter.
[00:46:45]  Smarter is better than dumber.
[00:46:48]  And so, I think that in those three categories, both male and female, and individuals and peoples, there are distinctions.
[00:46:56]  And therefore, there is some measure of hierarchy.
[00:47:00]  And that hierarchy may not be for individuals or even for peoples, it may not be a fixed hierarchy, right?
[00:47:08]  Deterministic, fatalistic for all of time.
[00:47:11]  It's not to say that nothing can change or fluctuate within reason over time.
[00:47:17]  But I think those distinctions do exist.
[00:47:20]  And by virtue of there being distinctions that we can observe, that we can see, then there is some measure of hierarchy and better and worse.
[00:47:28]  And yet, to me, it's just all that is entirely, right?
[00:47:32]  We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
[00:47:33]  All that is.
[00:47:34]  Can be true that level of temporal inequality can run right alongside this eternal equality in terms of a spiritual sense, eternal, spiritual, ultimate sense of the weight of the soul, the dignity of the soul.
[00:47:52]  That in that category, there is an equality for all people, and also in one nation at one time under the law.
[00:48:00]  I think that that also would be, should be equal for true citizens in one place at one time.
[00:48:07]  Would you have anything to clarify or push back on?
[00:48:11]  Would you agree with it in this sense we're equal and that sense we're not?
[00:48:15]  Is that consistent with Christian thought?
[00:48:18]  Well, I think that there are a lot of distinctions here that people miss.
[00:48:22]  It's very easy just to have the line, all men are equal and all that, and then go from there.
[00:48:27]  But I think the first thing is that there is a baseline mercy.
[00:48:31]  So there is a type of temporal mercy to everyone because they're not in hell, right?
[00:48:38]  So there is a sort of baseline mercy.
[00:48:40]  And that you can call it common grace, whatever, but a lot of people in the past called it mercy and not common grace.
[00:48:47]  But it would be a general, I think, yeah, it would be a general mercy, is how Witherspoon put it.
[00:48:52]  But then, even with that mercy among, I'm talking about non Christian nations, there is unequal restraint.
[00:48:58]  So some nations will have great civil rulers and decent laws despite being pagans.
[00:49:05]  We can talk about ancient Greece and Rome and all that.
[00:49:09]  So they can have laws that, Christians have recognized that are actually overall good with particulars that are bad.
[00:49:16]  And so there's a sort of higher restraint based upon divine providence upon those people relative to others who actually did not have good vows at all.
[00:49:25]  And so it didn't go well for them.
[00:49:26]  So there is that inequality.
[00:49:28]  But that's due to not only the actions of men and thought of men, but also under divine providence.
[00:49:34]  But we can say that there is a qualitative distinction between a Christian and a non Christian in terms of God's relationship to that.
[00:49:44]  So Christian, so God does not treat Christians.
[00:49:49]  There is a higher love, a qualitatively higher love, because we're in Christ.
[00:49:56]  A there is a divine love there that non Christians do not have, um, and within that, within the Christian world, there is a fundamental equality before God in terms of the fact that we all equally have a title to heaven through Christ.
[00:50:10]  So, justification if you're justified is equal with regard to saying have a title to eternal life in Christ, but even but then, when you go from there, I mean, there's unequality regarding sanctification, there's talk of um.
[00:50:26]  Unequal gifts in heaven.
[00:50:28]  So there is a type of equality, inequality there.
[00:50:32]  But what I think is great though, what's pretty neat, let me put it that way, is that it doesn't matter what your social station is in life.
[00:50:47]  You could be a no name sort of maid that no one knows, you die, few people go to your funeral, whatever it is.
[00:50:54]  And yet you, in a way, could be first in the kingdom of God.
[00:50:56]  And that's because God looks at the heart.
[00:50:59]  And even though you're Uh, seemingly, my contribution may not be some great military leader or civil leader or whatever you are, and yet your actions you did continuously to the glory of God and you stored up treasures in heaven.
[00:51:13]  So, there is, in a way, the heavenly rewards can are not equal, you say, or they're not one for one with the sort of contributions you make in earthly life.
[00:51:24]  So, this is why this gets into kingdom theology.
[00:51:27]  In the higher sort of spiritual kingdom, the order of it that is, the in the order of heaven can be very different than what you'd expect if you were.
[00:51:36]  A sort of seek glory on earth, sort of guy.
[00:51:37]  All right.
[00:51:38]  So I think there's that.
[00:51:39]  I got more.
[00:51:40]  So just give me time here.
[00:51:42]  And now in civil life, in civil life, in the earthly life, a ditch digger and a godly ditch digger and a godly civil ruler can, in a way, be equal before God.
[00:51:58]  Now, I know there's different duties and one has stricter duties and all that.
[00:52:02]  But if you, in a way, in sanctification, you are equal before God because the ditch digger, He can't do these other things, but he can act to the glory of God, and he has.
[00:52:12]  And same with the civil ruler.
[00:52:13]  So, in a way, there's an equality built into that, but that doesn't translate on earthly life such that the ditch digger, because he's godly, is now praised and gives honors at the end.
[00:52:24]  His work is not qualitatively or quantitatively higher than the civil ruler pertaining to his actual contribution in society.
[00:52:32]  So, there are differences between people in the different social stations.
[00:52:38]  And in terms of getting awards and in terms of being praised in public, And on a mass scale, the godly civil ruler deserves that more than the ditch digger because it pertains to earthly life, but yet not before God in terms of eternal things.
[00:52:54]  So, yeah, so there is hierarchy.
[00:52:56]  So you can say there's an equality among Christians in relation to God in their godliness, but it doesn't translate into saying everyone's equal regarding their contribution to the goods in this world.
[00:53:12]  And so you have what you might call To go another place would be the idea of civil dignity.
[00:53:18]  So, in civil dignity, it's very clear in the tradition and in scripture that civil rulers are actually have higher dignity because they have more than your average person.
[00:53:32]  And that's because they're literally given a power of God and they enact law.
[00:53:40]  No one else can do that.
[00:53:41]  They execute law, they enforce that law.
[00:53:46]  Pronounce judgment upon people who do what's wrong.
[00:53:48]  And so they image because of that, they actually have a higher dignity regarding their office, because they have that office than the average person.
[00:53:59]  So, and this just points back again, dignity is tied to the sort of things that you are, the faculties that you have, and the various means you have in the world.
[00:54:10]  And so, for a civil ruler with the power of God, is therefore going to have higher dignity than others.
[00:54:17]  So, what I'm trying to say is that all these distinctions that are principled, that are coherent.
[00:54:22]  Where you can affirm equality in various ways, and yet that doesn't translate logically into equality in other spheres or other areas of life.
[00:54:35]  Good.
[00:54:36]  HJM in our chat, I'd like to hear your response, but I thought they had a reasonable comment.
[00:54:43]  They said, Heavenly rewards are based on what you do, not who you are, for there's no partiality with God.
[00:54:52]  How would you respond to that?
[00:54:55]  Because there is a hierarchy of rewards in heaven.
[00:54:57]  I think that's clear.
[00:54:58]  I would say there's a, I forget which one, but one Puritan said that God loves the adverbs.
[00:55:05]  And so it's you do it well.
[00:55:08]  And by doing something well, that includes not only the substance of the action you do in the world, but it also involves what perfects it, what makes it truly good.
[00:55:17]  I mean, a pagan can do what is good in substance.
[00:55:20]  Right.
[00:55:21]  But a pagan cannot do, cannot complete that good and make it truly good because he cannot do it to the glory of God.
[00:55:27]  And my point is that the heavenly rewards would conform to you doing what is good in a complete sense.
[00:55:35]  And so, no matter your station in life, doing even mundane tasks to the glory of God is sort of storing treasures for yourself in heaven.

=== Heavenly Rewards Hierarchy (03:23) ===

[00:55:44]  Amen.
[00:55:45]  No, that's good.
[00:55:46]  Wes, are there any other?
[00:55:47]  We're going to go to our last commercial break here in a moment, but here at kind of the final end of our second segment, are there any other particular quotes that you wanted to highlight?
[00:55:55]  I have a good one here, but I think we'll save it for the third segment and kind of wrap up with it.
[00:55:59]  Okay.
[00:55:59]  All right.
[00:56:00]  So, For those of you guys who are listening to the broadcast live, a couple of points of order.
[00:56:05]  Number one, if you would like to give a comment or question to Dr. Wolf for him to answer, go ahead and get those in now.
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[01:02:33]  All right, so Stephen, I'm going to give it to you to land the plane, but I'm going to read a quote from your article here because I think it's one of the best ways to sum up to both bring together equality.
[01:02:42]  And inequality.
[01:02:43]  You say this again, the article title for anyone who wants to find it The Christian Defense of Inequality from American Reformer.
[01:02:48]  And you said this So, by original nature, man is born free and equal, but by his nature, he comes to form civil society in which some rule and others are ruled.
[01:03:00]  And just as in marriage, those most suitable to rule by nature, that is, the husband, ought to rule.
[01:03:05]  Hence, equality and hierarchical difference are acknowledged and are perfectly compatible.
[01:03:10]  Natural equality and natural superiority are reconciled.
[01:03:17]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:03:18]  Again, sorry for the audio problems, but on that point, what I'm doing is the idea of political equality.
[01:03:25]  So, the, you know, like you, we're not born into, by pure nature, we're not, we're not born such that another guy, someone else has a higher nature and rules us.
[01:03:36]  But, but by nature, we're actually at a level, we're equal.
[01:03:39]  This is like the pre political society.
[01:03:41]  Obviously, you're born into a country and you're under those laws, but in a sort of theoretical society, You're born free and equal.
[01:03:49]  And that's not just what you might read among American founders.
[01:03:51]  It's what you'd read all the way to Calvin and well before that.
[01:03:56]  And of course, Rutherford and others.
[01:03:58]  You're born free.
[01:03:59]  But that's also true for marriage.
[01:04:02]  So you're born not in a, you're not born by nature to marry this guy or this gal, but you come to choose that.
[01:04:10]  But it's also not true that you would do that.
[01:04:12]  You are by instinct led to marry someone.
[01:04:19]  Same thing for civil society.
[01:04:21]  So, you can speak about how in a pre political state, you're all actually equal, but then by your nature, you come to form civil society.
[01:04:29]  And in fact, you need it.
[01:04:30]  You need civil society.
[01:04:32]  You need to be among others in order to live well.
[01:04:36]  So, again, by nature, you're equal, you're free.
[01:04:40]  And yet, by our nature as well, in order to complete what we are as social beings, as political animals, we come to form political societies.
[01:04:49]  And also, but embedded in that political society is the ruler and the ruled.
[01:04:54]  So you have some people who look to the good order of the people generally, and you are, as a general people, to submit to their rule.
[01:05:04]  And my argument is that it's actually natural for us to do that.
[01:05:07]  It's natural that we would look upon someone whom we consider great and wise and look to them to establish certain rules by which we live in society.
[01:05:19]  Again, so in other words, like it's reconciled.
[01:05:22]  You can have both equality and hierarchy.
[01:05:26]  I don't think there's any logical or necessary tension.
[01:05:29]  But of course, throughout society, from the beginning, there's been that sort of tension.
[01:05:34]  And that's largely a matter of what politics is trying to resolve the tension among different groups of hierarchical relationships while also affirming people's equality.
[01:05:45]  And the last thing I'll say is if you're in a society, you can be treated very much like you're treated as an equal, as an equal person within that society, even if you're at the lower end of that society.
[01:05:59]  You're treated as an integral member of that society.
[01:06:02]  And so you deserve a sort of equality within that.
[01:06:05]  You are a contributor.
[01:06:07]  To that society, fulfilling, you know, as Althusius would say, you know, communicating your gifts to the good of the whole.
[01:06:15]  Whereas, but at the same time, you'll have someone else who you'll have inequality because some people are going to rule and others are going to be ruled and others are going to be more important than in terms of the order and contribution of society.
[01:06:29]  So I hope that makes sense.
[01:06:30]  I just, but the broad point again is equality and equality are not necessarily opposed to one another and they haven't been for most of.
[01:06:38]  Christian strength.
[01:06:39]  This is where I think John Carter's piece kind of misses the point or misses a lot is that we have thorough, clear statements in political thought among theologians going back millennia that do this very thing.
[01:06:54]  Calvin says that by natural reason, we'll have a hierarchical society.
[01:06:57]  And he says also, we're naturally equal.
[01:07:00]  Aquinas says the same thing.
[01:07:01]  Althusius says the same thing.
[01:07:02]  Everyone said it.
[01:07:04]  That was only within the last few hundred years where people, I think, began to.
[01:07:09]  They were socialized in this sort of post Kantian ethic and they theologized that.
[01:07:14]  They basically theologized the modern notion of dignity.
[01:07:18]  And we have to escape from that and just really go back to the thinking of Christianity for hundreds, thousands of years.
[01:07:29]  Yeah.
[01:07:29]  Yep.
[01:07:30]  Did you want to share one more quote?
[01:07:32]  Looks like we have one lined up.
[01:07:33]  Let me read your summary.
[01:07:35]  I think this is really good.
[01:07:36]  I mean, you wrote it, so I think you would stand by it.
[01:07:38]  I think it's the best way to kind of sum up, just to put an exclamation point on it.
[01:07:42]  You said this, and this especially goes again to those on the right.
[01:07:45]  So, we're not addressing the progressive, but those on the right who critique Christianity.
[01:07:49]  And they say Christianity is what brought about this mess and got us here.
[01:07:53]  And you said this the answer to equality talk is not abandoning fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith.
[01:07:58]  The answer is understanding them.
[01:08:00]  We can coherently affirm both natural and moral equality and civil and social inequality.
[01:08:05]  And we ought to, because equality is the bedrock of a hierarchical society where each has the equal moral demand to work.
[01:08:13]  According to his abilities and to the benefit of all, led by those most suited to lead.
[01:08:18]  But natural and moral equality do not require that all are equally praised, nor that each person has limitless value, nor that all have the same potential, nor that bad behavior is excused or blamed elsewhere, nor that resentment and subversion are tolerated.
[01:08:34]  The image of God means that fallen man will act below his dignity, like animals, and ought to be restrained by civil authority.
[01:08:41]  Men must be governed, some more than others.
[01:08:45]  Well said.
[01:08:46]  Men must be governed.
[01:08:47]  Is that a Master and Commander, right?
[01:08:50]  Yeah.
[01:08:50]  The movie?
[01:08:51]  Yeah.
[01:08:51]  Classic.
[01:08:51]  I'd like to add on to it.
[01:08:52]  And then some more than others.
[01:08:54]  And then some more than others.
[01:08:55]  That is absolutely true.
[01:08:57]  Yep.
[01:08:57]  Okay.
[01:08:58]  Well, I think that's well said.
[01:08:59]  I think we had one super chat that somebody put in.
[01:09:02]  So, Nathan, if you could pop that up, one super chat.
[01:09:05]  It is from Appeal to Heaven 7.
[01:09:07]  He says, $4.99 from Appeal to Heaven 7.
[01:09:11]  Thank you.
[01:09:12]  We appreciate it.
[01:09:13]  He said, good afternoon from the OGC NGS.
[01:09:18]  Old Glory Club Nathaniel Green Society.
[01:09:21]  Okay, all right.
[01:09:22]  Only Christian men can restore this order.
[01:09:24]  Don't let pagans take this from you.
[01:09:28]  Thanks, Right Response Ministries and Dr. Wolf for this conversation.
[01:09:33]  He's absolutely right.
[01:09:35]  I'll be honest, pagans on the right, they actually can fix some things.
[01:09:40]  There are some things that they can fix, but it will create some other problems in the other direction.
[01:09:50]  And Christians should be, it's just, it's dishonoring to God.
[01:09:54]  It would be just truly a tragedy to allow a bunch of.
[01:09:59]  Godless pagans on the right to come and fix all these problems.
[01:10:03]  It's our history, it's our heritage, it's our faith, and all the solutions are right there for Christians.
[01:10:09]  If I could say something about that.
[01:10:10]  Yeah.
[01:10:11]  Yeah.
[01:10:12]  So it is true that many people who are kind of on the pagan right, they're not, I mean, they don't worship, you know, the semi god or whatever.
[01:10:21]  There are some of those, but they have kind of brought us back to saying, hey, there are some virtues within the ancient world that we've lost.
[01:10:30]  I think that's true.
[01:10:31]  They've kind of That's sort of mediated through Nietzsche and all that.
[01:10:34]  So I think there's something there that to recognize contribution.
[01:10:37]  But I think the problem with a lot of the pagan right is they don't have that, they tend to be just atheistic.
[01:10:43]  And so they don't have a benefit of the Christian system is again, you can affirm the hierarchy, the difference, you can explain all that.
[01:10:55]  And yet you can also say that, you know what, each individual actually has an equal moral duty to be a.
[01:11:02]  Proper person in society.
[01:11:04]  Like there is an actual moral duty behind it.
[01:11:07]  Even the guy who is less capable than another guy will be excused from performing his moral duty because there is actually that moral duty.
[01:11:14]  It's not a sort of competition among sort of amoral beings seeking dominance.
[01:11:23]  There is dominance, and yet there's also principled moral submission at the same time.
[01:11:29]  And so I think the pagan right, their problem in their theory at least, Is it turns into a war of all against all?
[01:11:36]  There's actually no ethical reason why anyone who's weaker than you should submit to the strong.
[01:11:42]  There's no reason for it.
[01:11:44]  And so the only, you know, there's no moral reason for it other than fear.
[01:11:48]  Like if they're afraid, then they're going to submit.
[01:11:50]  And so really, the pagan rights political theory in general returns us, I think, to the sort of reign of the Turks that Montesquieu identified.
[01:11:58]  It returns, it's worse than Hobbes, Hobbes applied equal rationality and equality to everyone, but it returns even stronger to the war of all against all.
[01:12:08]  There's just in the theory, there's nothing there.
[01:12:10]  But the Christian theory, I mean, apart from being true, is also more expedient in the fact that you have, again, universal moral equality where each person ought to conform to the more wise and also affirm that there are some who are more wise and ought to lead.
[01:12:33]  Well said.

=== War Against All (00:57) ===

[01:12:34]  All right.
[01:12:34]  Well, let's leave it there.
[01:12:36]  Dr. Stephen Wolf, thank you.
[01:12:37]  It's a pleasure, as always, to have you join us on the show.
[01:12:40]  Real quick.
[01:12:41]  Let the listener know where they can follow you if there's any projects that you're up to that you want them to be able to check out.
[01:12:47]  Yeah, so we're on, uh, what is it called?
[01:12:50]  The Lone Bullwork.
[01:12:51]  Supercast.com.
[01:12:52]  The Lone Bullwork.
[01:12:53]  Yeah, so we're doing a few shows there, Scholar Series, ours Politica's back, and then the YouTube channel, and then Twitter on, uh, at Perfin Just.
[01:13:02]  Don't ask me why I chose that, but that's my handle.
[01:13:04]  You'll find me.
[01:13:05]  So, um, yeah, that's about it.
[01:13:07]  Great.
[01:13:08]  Well, thank you so much for coming on.
[01:13:09]  Thank you, uh, to the listener for tuning in.
[01:13:11]  We appreciate it.
[01:13:12]  And Lord willing, we will see everybody.
[01:13:14]  On Monday at 3 p.m. Central Time, but make sure tonight, 8 p.m., tonight, 8 p.m. Central Time, we'll have the next episode in season three of the Friday special with Dr. Stephen Wolf on all things Christian nationalism.
[01:13:27]  Thanks for tuning in, and we will see you guys again tonight and then on Monday.
[01:13:32]  God bless.