NXR Podcast - THE FRIDAY SPECIAL - Dispensationalism Has Had Terrible Consequences
Aired: 2025-02-08
Duration: 50:34


=== Jesus Finished Creation (15:07) ===

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[00:00:27]  When they returned to the Mount of Olives, where they had been staying, they asked him privately what he meant by that.
[00:00:32]  When will all these buildings be destroyed?
[00:00:34]  What is the sign of him coming in judgment on Jerusalem and on the end of the old creation?
[00:00:41]  Again, it is crucial to understand that they are not asking about the second coming and physical return of Jesus Christ, nor the end of space and time.
[00:00:52]  Remember the context.
[00:00:54]  They are specifically asking about the temple's destruction, about his coming in judgment on that place which is inextricably linked at the very center of the old creation.
[00:01:29]  All right, Matthew 24, all of that discourse, hashtag.postmail.
[00:01:33]  That's right.
[00:01:34]  Here we go.
[00:01:35]  You know, we had somebody in the comments with a live stream that we did yesterday at the time of this recording.
[00:01:39]  It would have been yesterday.
[00:01:40]  And they said, Are these guys pre trib or post trib?
[00:01:45]  And you and I were both like, We're post trib, just really, really, really post.
[00:01:51]  Really?
[00:01:52]  We believe the tribulation happened about 1950 years ago.
[00:02:00]  Yeah.
[00:02:00]  Yeah, 2070 is going to be quite the anniversary.
[00:02:03]  It's coming up.
[00:02:04]  2,000 year anniversary of the tribulation.
[00:02:06]  That's right.
[00:02:07]  All right, so what does this have to do with everything that we're talking about?
[00:02:11]  We're talking about, you know, a Christian perspective of Israel, talking about the end of the old covenant, the inauguration of the new.
[00:02:21]  So, what's going on in Matthew 24?
[00:02:22]  What's the context?
[00:02:24]  Yeah, it's this serious judgment that Christ is describing. to Israel.
[00:02:31]  He's explaining to them, right, what, and to the disciples, what is going to happen, this massive judgment.
[00:02:37]  And I think, you know, a lot of Christians, because we're not steeped in the Old Testament and have a good understanding of the Old Covenant, we don't get what a big deal that is for Jesus to say that, to say that this is what is going to happen.
[00:02:55]  We don't, I think, understand accurately or well enough What the Old Covenant was and how it operated, what the features of it were, and so forth.
[00:03:09]  So, this Old Covenant world, the very center of the world, right, in God's economy, it isn't the most important place in the world, isn't Rome or it isn't some other empire or great civilization elsewhere in the world, like China at the time is another example.
[00:03:26]  It's not about that.
[00:03:28]  God doesn't care about those places as much as he cares about.
[00:03:34]  Israel and in particular Jerusalem and the temple, right?
[00:03:39]  The temple, Mount Zion and Mount Moriah, right?
[00:03:44]  This is where his throne is.
[00:03:45]  This is where he has placed his presence on earth in the old covenant.
[00:03:50]  And so for him to judge it, for him to destroy it, that means the end.
[00:03:56]  That means that it is over.
[00:03:59]  And one of the things I think, as when I was younger and I'm trying to think through the theology of all of these things, that sort of bothered me when I was in my kind of normie evangelical world was, right, we're the new covenant, but what exactly happens to the old covenant?
[00:04:22]  It's kind of a mystery.
[00:04:23]  Like, oh, the old covenant is just hanging out there somewhere.
[00:04:28]  And here, this event, right, it's not described anywhere in scripture as having already happened, right?
[00:04:36]  And so here, Jesus makes this major prophecy.
[00:04:41]  And in the pages of Scripture, we don't find it fulfilled anywhere.
[00:04:45]  And this, of course, that fact that it isn't shown as fulfilled in the pages of Scripture causes a lot of problems for the church because then people will say, well, this must be, I mean, you read the language of Matthew 24, this must be the end of the world.
[00:05:06]  This must be really bad, something that's maybe around the corner.
[00:05:10]  Like, look at the things happening.
[00:05:13]  There's wars and rumors of wars.
[00:05:15]  And they're correct in the sense that it wasn't the end of the world, but it was the end of a world.
[00:05:22]  It was the end of their world that they were currently in.
[00:05:25]  Right.
[00:05:25]  Well, their world in a local geographic sense, but also the end of a world in the sense of a period of time and what God had done thus far.
[00:05:36]  It's the closing of not the whole book, but the closing of a significant chapter.
[00:05:41]  Yeah.
[00:05:42]  And it isn't even just local and regional, it's that the center of the globe to God was the temple, then Israel around it, then the rest of the world.
[00:05:51]  I mean, you see this all throughout the Old Testament.
[00:05:56]  This three, these like three spheres, like right in the family, the church, and the state.
[00:06:04]  Right, but you see that the way God constructs the world from Genesis one, right?
[00:06:12]  You have the sanctuary, right?
[00:06:14]  The garden, right?
[00:06:15]  You have the land, Eden, and then you have the rest of the world.
[00:06:19]  And you see in the beginning of Genesis, right?
[00:06:22]  There's three falls that occur in the book of Genesis, right?
[00:06:26]  The first one, is Adam and Eve in the sanctuary.
[00:06:30]  They fall and they're kicked out of the sanctuary.
[00:06:33]  Where?
[00:06:33]  Into the land, into the land of Eden.
[00:06:35]  They can't go back in the sanctuary, but they're there in the land of Eden.
[00:06:39]  Then the next fall is Cain killing his brother Abel.
[00:06:43]  And what happens to him?
[00:06:44]  He's kicked out of the land into the world.
[00:06:48]  And then the third fall, right?
[00:06:50]  We won't get into the details of this one.
[00:06:53]  That's for the Ogden guys to argue with me about.
[00:06:58]  The sons of God marry the daughters of men.
[00:07:01]  There's great corruption on the earth.
[00:07:03]  What happens there?
[00:07:04]  God exiles them all from the world in the flood.
[00:07:09]  So there's these three concentric spheres of the world.
[00:07:15]  And then later on, there is a new sanctuary.
[00:07:20]  There is the tabernacle, then later the temple.
[00:07:23]  That's at the center.
[00:07:24]  And then surrounding that is the land, the land of Israel.
[00:07:28]  And then outside of that is the world.
[00:07:32]  And so that's the basic construction, basic layout of the old covenant world.
[00:07:39]  And you have different people in these different spheres, these different zones.
[00:07:44]  In the sanctuary, you had the priests and the Levites and the high priest.
[00:07:48]  And outside of that, in the land, you had Israel, Hebrews, Jews in the land.
[00:07:55]  And then outside of that, you have the Gentiles.
[00:07:58]  That is the basic building blocks of the old creation world.
[00:08:03]  Well, God destroying the temple and destroying the land, right?
[00:08:09]  Well, what does that mean?
[00:08:10]  It means that the old creation world is being deconstructed, destroyed, as a new world has come in.
[00:08:18]  And so that's why it's significant because it shows us it's all right in the same theme of this issue, going back to the bigger picture of our questions here, which is, right, today, Are there still distinctions between Jew and Gentile, right?
[00:08:37]  Because those are old creation, old covenant, old world distinctions.
[00:08:42]  So, rightly, you've said it is the end of the world, right?
[00:08:47]  It's the end of that world that God is breaking down.
[00:08:51]  It's the end of a world.
[00:08:52]  Yeah, but it's not the end of space and time.
[00:08:55]  A new world has come in because of the work of Jesus Christ.
[00:09:02]  Right.
[00:09:03]  So, you think about it.
[00:09:05]  In those terms, right, in those terms, that the old covenant is coming to an end, and the signifier, right, the big giant statement that nobody can miss is that the temple is destroyed, Jerusalem is destroyed, Israel is laid waste, and now.
[00:09:24]  But 90% of evangelicals today have missed this.
[00:09:28]  Like the whole time you're talking, I just keep thinking, how would God, as it were, my most pure spirit without body parts and passions, Yes and amen.
[00:09:38]  But as it were, how does God feel about 90% of evangelicals attempting to hold on to and even resurrect the world that he intentionally destroyed with finality?
[00:09:53]  God said, I mean, with virtually the same finality, the same degree of finality as Christ on the cross saying, It is finished.
[00:10:02]  Right?
[00:10:02]  That we would never dream as an evangelical Christian of trying to supplement.
[00:10:08]  The atoning work of Christ.
[00:10:10]  It is finished.
[00:10:10]  It's paid in full.
[00:10:12]  The sufficiency of Christ and the finality of his atoning work.
[00:10:17]  But so too, in terms of not just God's mercy in Christ's substitutionary death, but God's judgment and the finality of him wrapping up like a garment, the completion and the finishing of this old world, an old covenant.
[00:10:33]  And yet, here we are 2,000 years removed.
[00:10:36]  And it's not like there's some fringe.
[00:10:38]  Cultish group, but the majority of evangelicals are looking to God's statement in the same manner that Christ says, It is finished, Christ who's God, it is finished, speaking of his atoning work.
[00:10:52]  God, through providence and judgment in 870, says, It is finished, speaking of the old covenant.
[00:10:59]  And yet, we continually attempt to carve out some kind of continuation of this thing that God said is done.
[00:11:08]  Yeah, I think it's.
[00:11:09]  I think it's a major reason why the evangelical church in our day, I don't think it's the only reason, but I think it's a major one, why we are so weak and inept and corrupted that God is not blessing us when we have this completely erroneous theology.
[00:11:33]  And it isn't just merely an error, right?
[00:11:36]  I'm sure that I'm wrong about.
[00:11:39]  Certain things in my views in scripture.
[00:11:42]  I know you think, well, I could be wrong about all sorts of things, right?
[00:11:46]  We're human.
[00:11:47]  We make errors.
[00:11:48]  Yeah, I think you could be wrong about that.
[00:11:50]  That's right.
[00:11:52]  And if I knew what those errors were, I would.
[00:11:54]  We would change.
[00:11:55]  Correct it to the right thing.
[00:11:56]  I think I'm right about everything.
[00:11:58]  Like everyone thinks they're right about everything.
[00:11:59]  But I know I'm not.
[00:12:00]  But I know I'm not.
[00:12:01]  Exactly.
[00:12:01]  I just don't know what those things are.
[00:12:03]  And if I did, I would change it.
[00:12:04]  Yeah, but I think this rises to a different level, right?
[00:12:07]  This rises to the level of, right?
[00:12:10]  God has.
[00:12:11]  Conclusively declared, this is over.
[00:12:14]  This old covenant is done.
[00:12:16]  It's over.
[00:12:16]  It is never, ever coming back.
[00:12:20]  And we want to at least have some aspects of it or preserve it in certain ways because we've been deceived by lies.
[00:12:31]  We've been deceived by an errant theology that subverts our churches, our doctrine, everything else.
[00:12:38]  Yeah.
[00:12:39]  And then that produces that subversive doctrine, produces.
[00:12:44]  Perverse and corrupt applications, real world, cultural, political, at every level.
[00:12:51]  Here's where I get angry though.
[00:12:55]  I'm sympathetic to the plain reading of scripture and coming away with these wrong interpretations.
[00:13:01]  But what I want the listener to realize though is that this is a modern phenomenon.
[00:13:07]  We don't have 2,000 years of the average Christian coming away with this interpretation.
[00:13:12]  We just have the last 150 years of the average Christian coming away with this interpretation.
[00:13:17]  So it's not just like, well, I can see how that could happen to anybody with just a plain reading of scripture.
[00:13:21]  Well, but it didn't happen to anybody for 2,000 years.
[00:13:25]  It started happening to anybody, and that was a play.
[00:13:29]  And the average evangelical who has fallen for it.
[00:13:32]  I'm not angry at him, but I am absolutely livid, and I believe in a righteous way, at very intentional, nefarious players who inducted and injected with a syringe this poisonous doctrine that has horrible, global, worldwide consequences.
[00:13:59]  Where you're talking about a doctrine that at the end of the day, I can draw a straight line from dispensationalism to.
[00:14:07]  Millions dead.
[00:14:09]  Ideas have consequences, so does theology.
[00:14:11]  And I'm talking about millions.
[00:14:12]  What are you talking about, Joel?
[00:14:13]  I'm talking about war.
[00:14:14]  I'm talking about endless wars in the Middle East.
[00:14:18]  Again and again and again.
[00:14:20]  And now, as we turn our backs even further from the Lord and embrace egalitarianism and feminism and a draft of not just our sons, but potentially our daughters.
[00:14:31]  And so, if our girls get drafted.
[00:14:38]  Into World War III.
[00:14:39]  Well, one, I'm going to take my daughters and we're going to go and hide.
[00:14:42]  But if somehow, you know, if people's daughters start ending up, you know, forcibly going to World War III for Israel and dying, John Hagee, I mean, he's already going to hell.
[00:14:55]  But, dude, the degree of intensity of Dante's Inferno, I mean, we're talking the lowest levels, the darkest levels of hell.
[00:15:04]  Yeah.
[00:15:05]  It's evil.

=== Funding The Nation State (06:15) ===

[00:15:07]  It is.
[00:15:09]  It is so destructive.
[00:15:13]  And there are people like him that are just totally cynical and doing this because it gets them a big church and they bring in lots of money and things like this.
[00:15:25]  And even back 100 years ago, 100 plus years ago, to Cyrus Schofield, where I mean, this is the thing that a lot of people.
[00:15:34]  Well, this is what I'm talking about.
[00:15:35]  Darby Schofield.
[00:15:37]  Yeah.
[00:15:39]  If you just read about who Cyrus Schofield was and the things that he did, this is a guy who abandoned his family.
[00:15:45]  He was a drunk and alcoholic and takes this teaching from John Nelson Darby and writes a Bible commentary.
[00:15:55]  And then that Bible commentary gets distributed, printed and distributed and marketed to the entire country.
[00:16:01]  And it wasn't marketed by Christians.
[00:16:03]  Everyone in America had a Schofield Bible.
[00:16:05]  Yeah.
[00:16:05]  It wasn't Christians that were behind doing this, saying, oh, here's a, we've just been reading the Bible wrong for the last.
[00:16:12]  You know, 1800 years.
[00:16:13]  Right.
[00:16:14]  No, it wasn't the church that pursued it.
[00:16:17]  Who was it?
[00:16:18]  Who funded it?
[00:16:19]  Right.
[00:16:20]  The main figure behind it is a man named Samuel Untermeyer, right, a wealthy financier on the East Coast.
[00:16:26]  And what would the motive be?
[00:16:29]  He was a Zionist.
[00:16:31]  Right.
[00:16:31]  Right.
[00:16:31]  He was a major funder, not only of Schofield, but of the Zionist project and backer of it.
[00:16:36]  And so he thought if I can get a bunch of Christians in a powerful nation to have this kind of Exegetical theological interpretation of scripture where they think that they have a moral obligation under God, politically, financially, economically, to support my project.
[00:16:54]  My project of getting a particular people in a particular place, then that would be good for me.
[00:17:04]  Yeah.
[00:17:04]  Especially because Jews are a tiny minority, both at the time in the UK and the United States.
[00:17:13]  And even among Jews, the Jews that wanted, that embraced the Zionist project, were an even smaller minority among that population.
[00:17:21]  Right.
[00:17:22]  And so you know that you need widespread support and you don't have the people.
[00:17:28]  To be able to do it, you can't just get your own people on board.
[00:17:31]  Yeah, if 2%, and even that was smaller, of the population say, We want to do this, well, you're not going to accomplish anything.
[00:17:39]  You need widespread support.
[00:17:40]  So, of course, it makes sense that they would fund the hegemony, which was Christians.
[00:17:44]  Yes, yeah, evangelical, Protestant Christians.
[00:17:47]  So, how do you get them to support something that is a false religion, Talmudic Judaism?
[00:17:55]  Yeah.
[00:17:56]  So, how do you get Christians who are faithful to The Christian triune God to Christ to support a group that, in terms of their ideology and their religion and their theology, rejects and hates Christ.
[00:18:08]  Well, you have to theologically find a way to say that the Bible doesn't just say, you know, children of the light and children of darkness, in Christ, not in Christ, but there's actually a third adjacent category.
[00:18:21]  The third group that has to be hanging out here forever.
[00:18:24]  And we recognize that they're not Christians.
[00:18:27]  We're not saying that they're brothers and sisters in the faith.
[00:18:30]  They're not.
[00:18:30]  Christians, but they're also still distinct, a separate category from just your average unbeliever.
[00:18:35]  God has this special plan for them off to the side while we're doing our thing.
[00:18:40]  And if we want God to bless us, we got to bless them.
[00:18:42]  We got to bless them, right?
[00:18:44]  Because God's going to bless us, but there's a chronological order.
[00:18:48]  God has to first do something special with this group.
[00:18:51]  And then once he's done that special thing with them, he'll do something really special with us.
[00:18:56]  And so then what do you need at bare minimum for that group?
[00:18:59]  Because they got to get blessed first before you can get blessed.
[00:19:01]  Well, one of the things you need for that group is for them to survive.
[00:19:04]  And so you have to ensure their protection, their survival, their sustaining.
[00:19:10]  And one of the things that they probably need if they're refugees and immigrants and spread out a dispersion, like, well, they need to survive, so they need a defense.
[00:19:21]  And individual citizens of other countries, they don't get a private defense.
[00:19:26]  The only thing that's allowed, the only entity allowed to have a military defense is a nation.
[00:19:32]  Yeah, nation state.
[00:19:33]  They need a nation state.
[00:19:34]  Yeah.
[00:19:36]  We briefly interrupt this programming to humbly offer to you a simple life hack.
[00:19:41]  This series, all things pertaining to Israel, covenant theology, the Judeo Christian psyop, the whole nine yards, this is available right now exclusively for our Patreon members at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
[00:20:00]  Depending where you're at in the series, you may have to wait all the way up until two and a half months to be able to see the whole thing because it's dripping out.
[00:20:07]  To the public once a week on Fridays at 8 p.m. Central Time.
[00:20:11]  But this is a nine part series, and all nine episodes, right now, uninterrupted, ad free, are available exclusively to our Patreon members again at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
[00:20:27]  In addition to this series with myself and Pastor Andrew Isker on Israel, we also have a whole other series that's 10 parts ad free with myself and Dr. Stephen Wolf on Christian nationalism.
[00:20:42]  Both of those series are available ad free today, again at patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.
[00:20:51]  All right, the clock is running out.
[00:20:52]  You need to go and register now for our Christ is King How to Defeat Trash World Conference.
[00:20:58]  It's happening the year of our Lord 2025, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th.
[00:21:04]  That's a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.
[00:21:06]  And by God's grace, we're able to provide for you an all star lineup.
[00:21:10]  We've got Steve Dace, Calvin Robinson, Orrin McIntyre, Dr. Stephen Wolfe, Eric Kahn, David Reese, Andrew Isker, John Harris, A.D. Robles, Dan Burkholder, Dusty Devers.

=== Moral Culpability And Sins (04:41) ===

[00:21:23]  Ben Garrett, CJ Engel, and yours truly, Pastor Joel Webbin.
[00:21:28]  Come on out, join us April 3rd, 4th, and 5th, 2025, Thursday through a Saturday.
[00:21:34]  Go to rightresponseconference.com to register today.
[00:21:39]  Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.
[00:21:42]  It's very simple.
[00:21:43]  When you think of the logic, it's like, oh, that wasn't exegesis.
[00:21:48]  That was an eisegesis.
[00:21:49]  Yeah, it was a propaganda effort with biblical eisegesis attached to it.
[00:21:57]  On the table.
[00:21:57]  And for the listener, exegesis just means to read the word of God and read out of the scripture what God actually means.
[00:22:04]  Eisegesis is to place into the scripture your own meaning.
[00:22:09]  So it's this post hoc justification for this entire project.
[00:22:15]  Right.
[00:22:17]  That's what it was.
[00:22:18]  And you begin to see that and you think about these things.
[00:22:20]  And I think about all of the wonderful, faithful Christian folks.
[00:22:29]  That this is just the air they've breathed, the water they swam in for their entire lifetime.
[00:22:33]  Everybody they've known, they're deceived.
[00:22:35]  They're not nefarious.
[00:22:37]  No, not at all.
[00:22:37]  There's a difference.
[00:22:38]  And there is a difference.
[00:22:39]  Being deceived, we're not saying that there's no moral responsibility.
[00:22:42]  You have a responsibility in being deceived.
[00:22:44]  Yeah, but it's a question of when you know better and you still do it.
[00:22:48]  But the thing is, we're not saying if you're deceived, therefore you're innocent.
[00:22:53]  Sins committed in ignorance.
[00:22:54]  I mean, you see, even in the old covenant, there were offerings to be made for the sins that were unknown, the sins you committed without even knowing.
[00:23:00]  But.
[00:23:01]  Um, there are degrees of sin, you know, as a quick little sidebar.
[00:23:07]  Uh, Christian myth busters, right?
[00:23:08]  Things that the Bible doesn't ever say all sin is equal, yeah.
[00:23:11]  That's no, that's a misnomer.
[00:23:13]  Um, all sin is equal insofar that a big sin or a little sin, apart from the atoning work of Christ alone, which is received by grace alone through faith alone in Him alone, apart from that, then all sin, big or small, um, is equal in its ability to separate you from the presence of God for eternity, yeah, and to deserve the wrath of God forever.
[00:23:33]  Uh huh, but.
[00:23:35]  Even in God's wrath.
[00:23:36]  So let's say it's the one who goes to hell, Jesus talks about to one will be given a light beating, to another would be given a severe beating.
[00:23:46]  There are hierarchy built into the fabric of the world that God has made.
[00:23:52]  And not only do we have hierarchy here, but there is a hierarchy in heaven.
[00:23:57]  And in a weird sort of events, we could actually biblically argue there is a hierarchy of hell, a hierarchy of punishment, degrees of eternal punishment based off of.
[00:24:08]  Degrees of sin.
[00:24:10]  And so those who are deceived by dispensationalism, they have our compassion and sympathy because, not because they're innocent, there is a moral culpability in being deceived.
[00:24:21]  But that culpability, although sin, although sin, it is a far less degree of sin than the nefarious, sinister, intentional deceiver is different than the one who is deceived.
[00:24:34]  Absolutely.
[00:24:35]  And I think that people.
[00:24:40]  Who are trying to recover traditional Protestant doctrine?
[00:24:46]  And there's all sorts of different views on Matthew 24 and on eschatology and things like that.
[00:24:53]  But the dispensational view is a particularly pernicious one and false one that subverts the Christian religion, destroys it from the inside out.
[00:25:08]  And in terms of moral culpability, if people are telling you, hey, this is what Christians believed in the past, faithful, godly Christians, here's one thing they believed, here are other things, right?
[00:25:20]  Historic premillennialism, amillennialism, postmillennialism, different views that way.
[00:25:25]  Those, I think, are doctrinally within the pale of orthodoxy.
[00:25:31]  And dispensationalism is this novel, new thing that's just on the outside.
[00:25:37]  It's new and it's made up.
[00:25:38]  And what is it made up for is to justify Zionism.
[00:25:42]  Right.
[00:25:42]  Dispensationalism was the theological framework with the sole intent of setting the stage for Zionism.
[00:25:50]  Yeah.
[00:25:51]  And so, if you have people now, right now we have the internet, we have the ability to undo the propaganda regime over the last hundred years, or at least push back against it.

=== Dispensationalism Justifies Zionism (16:16) ===

[00:26:04]  And if you're hearing this for the first time, you should at least ask yourself, right, well, what if everybody I've been around my entire life is wrong?
[00:26:14]  Because in reality, we're the tiny minority in the history of the church that believes this.
[00:26:20]  The vast majority did not believe this at all, did not believe dispensationalism.
[00:26:26]  You should ask yourself, why?
[00:26:28]  Did we just finally start to read the Bible correctly for the first time?
[00:26:32]  Or are we deceived?
[00:26:34]  Should I give this a hearing or not?
[00:26:36]  That's the thing that people always say, like, so whether it's patriarchy, people, like, I'll say, well, I think that I'm a head covering guy, or male headship in the home and in the state, not just the home and the church, but even in the state and these different spheres of human society.
[00:26:58]  And, you know, people say, like, don't you, Joel, don't you ever at least second guess yourself and start to think that you would be wrong because you're in such a sliver of a minority?
[00:27:10]  Minority.
[00:27:10]  And it's funny because the irony is always say, well, the reason I hold the position I do is precisely for that reason.
[00:27:17]  I don't want to be in the tiny minority.
[00:27:20]  And what you don't realize is that I'm in the minority for the last 15 minutes.
[00:27:24]  You are in the minority over the last 2,000 years.
[00:27:27]  For all of time.
[00:27:28]  Read anybody before the 1500s?
[00:27:31]  No.
[00:27:32]  Anybody before 1960.
[00:27:33]  Yeah.
[00:27:34]  Yeah.
[00:27:35]  We're talking very recently.
[00:27:36]  Read anybody.
[00:27:37]  Read Herman Bavink.
[00:27:38]  Yeah.
[00:27:39]  And they talk about, read them on the rules of men and women, read them on their political theology, read them on the state legislating, not only the second table of law, how we should love our neighbor, but also the first table of law.
[00:27:54]  Whoa.
[00:27:56]  Read not just what was happening under Constantine, you know, in the, In the 400s or whatever.
[00:28:04]  Read what was happening in these United States just 200 years ago.
[00:28:09]  Just 200 years ago.
[00:28:10]  Sabbath laws.
[00:28:11]  And honestly, not just 200 years ago.
[00:28:14]  In Texas right now, you still can't buy liquor on Sunday until, what is it?
[00:28:18]  I think it's like 1 p.m. or something like that.
[00:28:20]  Something like that, yeah.
[00:28:22]  Well, why?
[00:28:23]  I've got a friend who owns a butcher shop and it's also a restaurant, a barbecue restaurant.
[00:28:30]  And they open every single day at like, I think it's 9 or 10 a.m., except for Sunday.
[00:28:35]  Yeah.
[00:28:36]  They open after afternoon.
[00:28:39]  Why?
[00:28:40]  Because Sunday is church.
[00:28:41]  That is a hangover of a blue law, a Sabbath law.
[00:28:44]  So, we're not, we are not the minority.
[00:28:49]  The majority of people today are the minority if you simply pan out and look at history as a whole.
[00:28:55]  And you don't even have to pan out that far.
[00:28:57]  That's my point is, you know, guys are like, Christian nationalism will never happen.
[00:29:00]  Well, here's the deal it has happened before and it has happened here.
[00:29:05]  Yeah.
[00:29:06]  Yeah.
[00:29:07]  Not somewhere else.
[00:29:08]  It will never, like as if it's this new radical thing that nobody ever thought of before.
[00:29:14]  Right.
[00:29:15]  It's like, no, this was the baseline of what Christians believe.
[00:29:17]  So, people say, you know, why are you guys so Confident, you know, with the videos that you record or on Twitter or whatever, like guys like you and Andrew and AD or John Harris, you know, or why are you guys, you know, the Ogden boys, why are you guys, you're so confident?
[00:29:32]  We're so confident because this is what Christians have believed forever.
[00:29:36]  Yeah.
[00:29:37]  Until very recent.
[00:29:38]  The real question should be why are you, I support the current thing with your Ukraine flag, you know, Israel flag in your bio, wearing a mask.
[00:29:48]  Why are you so confident when you stand on the rich tradition that stretches back.
[00:29:53]  For 15 minutes.
[00:29:55]  Why are you confident?
[00:29:56]  Yeah.
[00:29:57]  Yeah, it shouldn't be.
[00:29:58]  And so, yeah, to that end, so I think about just the masses of millions of decent, godly, faithful Christians that have been lied to.
[00:30:12]  And the pressure culturally, socially, all around them is, right?
[00:30:17]  If you're going to a normal evangelical church, as exists today, and you hear this video and you listen to us and you're like, oh, I.
[00:30:25]  That Andrew, you know he's got a good point and Joel's got a good point about.
[00:30:29]  You know this viewing um Matthew, 24 and, and their views of of end times and eschatology, and you buy it right.
[00:30:38]  Well, what's going to happen is everybody, all around everybody.
[00:30:41]  You go to bible study with all, all your friends at church, and everything.
[00:30:44]  They're going to think you're nuts right, right.
[00:30:46]  So you can see how it's self-reinforcing once.
[00:30:48]  Once an idea has pervaded right, even a false idea has pervaded everything, right it.
[00:30:53]  You get pushback from everyone all around you.
[00:30:55]  They're going to, they're going to think that God is going to curse you because well, you're not blessing Israel right, those who curse Israel.
[00:31:01]  So God's going to curse you right, and it's like no no you, we.
[00:31:06]  Jesus Christ is the Israel.
[00:31:07]  You should be blessing him and his people right, which are those who are united to him in faith right right not, that have the same blood as as him and like allegedly well maybe, I think maybe, maybe not.
[00:31:21]  Yeah, we'll get to, maybe get to that later but um I, I look at it that way right, that there's so many people.
[00:31:28]  But The white pill, the encouraging thing is that younger generations are less susceptible to this, right.
[00:31:40]  They see, I think some of it is that they just see what a mess evangelicalism is across the board on so many things, how weak it is on marriage and family, on roles between men and women, on politics and things like that.
[00:31:57]  you know, all the sweet, gentle, you know, normie, boomer evangelical people that I love.
[00:32:04]  We love.
[00:32:04]  Right.
[00:32:06]  They go to whatever evangelical church typically, and they love Donald Trump.
[00:32:12]  They vote for him.
[00:32:13]  They think he's the greatest, the best, and they're proud to vote for him.
[00:32:16]  But then their pastors are saying, well, he's a bad guy.
[00:32:20]  Right.
[00:32:20]  That's not a very Christian thing to do to support that.
[00:32:23]  Like you need to be for totally open borders.
[00:32:26]  That's what, you know, that's what David French thinks and all the guys I look up to.
[00:32:30]  Right.
[00:32:30]  So you have that disconnect there already.
[00:32:32]  Right.
[00:32:32]  So I look at it and I think, well, let's go one step further.
[00:32:36]  You're going to disagree with your pastor and your church, the evangelical mainstream.
[00:32:40]  You recognize Trump.
[00:32:40]  You recognize Trump.
[00:32:41]  That your pastor is bought and paid for when it comes to politics.
[00:32:45]  Yeah.
[00:32:45]  Why not his theology?
[00:32:48]  Particularly on this issue.
[00:32:49]  On this issue.
[00:32:50]  You know, should you trust that, right?
[00:32:53]  There's all these huge problems.
[00:32:54]  The young people, I think, get this.
[00:32:56]  Younger people are getting this much more.
[00:32:58]  Right, and they get it.
[00:32:59]  So you gave one reason that the upcoming generation sees the psyop with much more clarity, in part because they see the fruit of the psyop.
[00:33:10]  They're young enough to where they're coming into the world.
[00:33:13]  Where the damage has already been done.
[00:33:16]  And so they're able to look at the rotten fruit hanging from the vine and say, that's a bad vine.
[00:33:21]  That's one reason why they're able to see it.
[00:33:23]  Another reason why they're able to see it, and this is an attempt to obey the fifth commandment and honoring our fathers and our mothers, is that our fathers and mothers did not have the resources or the access to the resources that we have today.
[00:33:39]  And what I mean by that is, it was the boomers are the most.
[00:33:44]  Psyop'd generation, arguably of all of human history, in part because you had mass means of information.
[00:33:55]  So think of 500 years ago and the Gutenberg printing press.
[00:33:58]  Well, then all of a sudden now you have television, cable news, the internet.
[00:34:05]  You have the New York Times, these kinds of things.
[00:34:07]  So you have Walter Cronkite, you have mass means of communication.
[00:34:12]  And yet at the same time, so the communication gets to everyone instantly.
[00:34:16]  And yet you only have.
[00:34:19]  Really, one choice of what stream of communication.
[00:34:25]  Everyone, there's like how many channels on TV?
[00:34:28]  Three.
[00:34:29]  How many news stations?
[00:34:30]  You know, two or three.
[00:34:32]  You know, how many newspapers do I have to choose?
[00:34:35]  I don't have where I can go online and have everything.
[00:34:39]  Well, I could read the New York Times, but I could also read American Reformer.
[00:34:43]  Like, no, there's none of that.
[00:34:45]  It's just I get the daily news.
[00:34:48]  And so you have mass means of communication.
[00:34:51]  But you only have one channel.
[00:34:53]  Well, I think, like, historically, too, an issue for them is in the middle of the 20th century, all of the mainline churches that most of the population, this is the thing I don't think we focus on enough, is the majority of the population went to a Protestant mainline church before the 1940s.
[00:35:15]  And what was going on in the 20s, 30s, and 40s in these churches is they were in the midst of, Massive apostasy.
[00:35:22]  They're denying the inerrancy of scripture, they're denying the virgin birth, denying the deity of Christ, all of these things, then ordaining women and just totally subverting everything.
[00:35:33]  And so, what happened when the boomers came of age in the 60s, well, even before the 50s, 60s, 70s, right?
[00:35:41]  You have this mass exodus of Christians out of the main lines into evangelicalism.
[00:35:46]  And what is evangelicalism informed by?
[00:35:49]  What's informed by this theology?
[00:35:52]  Right.
[00:35:52]  So it's like the Walter Cronkite thing, where this is the only channel available, right?
[00:35:58]  The only tradition that exists in the country that's still faithful to the Bible, that still believes the Bible is the Word of God, still believes that Christ is God.
[00:36:07]  Right.
[00:36:08]  And also happens to be dispensational.
[00:36:10]  Yeah.
[00:36:10]  That's the only place they could go.
[00:36:11]  And again, that's back to, you know, the oscillating back and forth between the righteous indignation versus the sympathy.
[00:36:17]  Yeah.
[00:36:18]  Well, you know.
[00:36:19]  I mean, I'm mostly sympathy.
[00:36:21]  Right.
[00:36:21]  I mostly am.
[00:36:22]  I'm mostly sympathy, too, again, for those deceived.
[00:36:25]  Yeah.
[00:36:26]  I am righteous, a good nation, and a, uh, I for the deceived.
[00:36:29]  Like David says, you know, do I not hate your enemies, oh Lord, with a perfect hatred?
[00:36:34]  I feel a perfect hatred towards the deceivers, not the deceived.
[00:36:38]  But that being said, my point is part of the reason, so when you leave the mainline denominations and evangelicalism begins to get its momentum, you got a lot of kind of blue collar churches and blue collar, some blue collar pastors.
[00:36:58]  And one of the bulwarks that's erected to be kind of a last line of defense against progressivism, against liberalism, against the.
[00:37:09]  You know, selling out on the inerrancy of scripture or you know, distinctions between men and women or these kinds of things is a literal hermeneutic.
[00:37:20]  So, like, John MacArthur, for instance, is a great example because I respect him, I honor him, and on certain issues like this one, I vehemently disagree with him.
[00:37:30]  Yeah, but John MacArthur, to steel man John MacArthur, and he deserves steel manning because he's done a lot of good.
[00:37:37]  So, to steel man John MacArthur, I really think that this is probably his incentive, his heart.
[00:37:43]  His motives is John MacArthur, who is, you know, he's old.
[00:37:48]  He was, so the things we're describing, he was alive for a lot of them.
[00:37:51]  He's not even, he's a silent generation.
[00:37:52]  He's not even, he's older than a boomer.
[00:37:54]  Exactly.
[00:37:55]  So he's watching all these things go down.
[00:37:57]  He's coming into his pastoral ministry at around this time as people are leaving the mainline denominations and everything that we're describing.
[00:38:04]  Well, John MacArthur is sitting there watching.
[00:38:08]  He's like, people are abandoning traditional marriage and deciding that it's, That it's permissible that the Bible doesn't actually say that homosexuality is a sin.
[00:38:18]  They're abandoning the inerrancy of Scripture, they're abandoning the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection, all these things.
[00:38:25]  And so, what does he do?
[00:38:27]  He says, We need to take the Bible literally.
[00:38:31]  And so, what does he end up doing for the next 50 plus years of his ministry?
[00:38:35]  He defends traditional marriage, he defends the inerrancy of Scripture, he defends male pastors, he defends all these things.
[00:38:43]  And he also, with that same literal hermeneutic, He's a dispensationalist.
[00:38:48]  Defends this reading of Israel, Revelation, Matthew 24, and so forth.
[00:38:52]  And so I get it.
[00:38:53]  No, I do too.
[00:38:55]  And that's the problem is that the best people with the best instincts, they just want to believe what the Bible says.
[00:39:06]  They just want to believe what God is telling us in the scriptures.
[00:39:11]  And those are the guys that are apparently faithful, and they were.
[00:39:17]  Right on all of those things, yeah, and and so I think that's why, right, God blessed evangelicalism, right, despite the errant right theology, despite their dispensationalism, not because of it, yeah.
[00:39:29]  But overall, the church is in a rough place because of it, right, especially today.
[00:39:35]  That the long term trajectory is worse and worse and worse.
[00:39:39]  Because, right, if you grow up your entire life thinking, and it's you're told it every single Sunday, you're told it every time you go to Bible study that.
[00:39:50]  Jesus is coming back soon.
[00:39:52]  The world is about to end, right?
[00:39:54]  Israel is now in the land in 1948, so we got maybe 40 years left.
[00:40:00]  This is why he's coming back in 1988, which is almost 40 years ago.
[00:40:04]  And people are like, well, actually, no, it's 80 years, so it's going to be 2028.
[00:40:08]  And then 2028 will come and pass.
[00:40:11]  And so I think a lot of people in our generation, right, we grew up with this and being told this, and 30 years go by, and it's like, well, it still hasn't come back yet.
[00:40:22]  Maybe.
[00:40:24]  Maybe there's some other reading of scripture that we should be pursuing.
[00:40:28]  Maybe we've gotten it wrong.
[00:40:30]  And not a new one.
[00:40:31]  Right.
[00:40:31]  And not an old one.
[00:40:32]  Yeah, maybe.
[00:40:33]  And that's one of the things I wanted to mention just real briefly is, again, the sympathy towards the guy who says, look, there's an onslaught from liberal theologians who are trying to neuter the scripture so that they can have.
[00:40:48]  Yeah, nothing in the Bible is literal.
[00:40:50]  Right, so that they can have gay sex and all these other things.
[00:40:55]  And we're not going to tolerate that.
[00:40:56]  We're going to take God at his word.
[00:40:59]  If the Bible says it, I believe it.
[00:41:00]  I got a bumper sticker and I'm just going to read the Bible literally.
[00:41:03]  That instinct is, in general, in the right direction.
[00:41:07]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:41:08]  We applaud it.
[00:41:08]  But what I want to say is that what we should account for, though, right?
[00:41:12]  So if we're just looking at modern church history in the last, you know, 80 years or so, 100 years, then yeah, those are your two options guys who aren't dispensationalist but are gay.
[00:41:24]  Yeah.
[00:41:25]  And then guys who are dispensationalist.
[00:41:26]  Yeah, those are the only two churches in town.
[00:41:28]  Traditional marriage.
[00:41:29]  I'm going to go to the dispensationalist church.
[00:41:31]  Absolutely.
[00:41:31]  Yeah.
[00:41:32]  Every day of the week and twice on Sunday, you know, but, but, um, yeah, but you got the Rainbow Flag Church and the Dispeach Church and John MacArthur's church.
[00:41:39]  I'm going to John MacArthur's church.
[00:41:41]  Yeah, every time.
[00:41:42]  Every time the doors are open.
[00:41:43]  But what I'm trying to say is that that's only when you look at modern American church history.
[00:41:49]  But if you pan out and you look at church history for centuries, over a thousand years, up until very recently, you don't find those two options.
[00:41:58]  What you find is zero dispensationalists who read the Bible analogically or typologically, recognizing that there are types and shadows, symbols, when we get to books like Revelation or things in Daniel.
[00:42:14]  Or Matthew 24, and they're able to read it with this typological, Christological hermeneutic.
[00:42:20]  And guess what?

=== Literal Truth Versus Symbolism (08:13) ===

[00:42:21]  Those analogical guys who see metaphor and symbolism in the Bible are also strong on marriage, strong on inerrancy, the virgin birth.
[00:42:30]  They did not view it as this kind of, you know, between a rock and a hard place.
[00:42:37]  Yeah, they didn't view the Bible as this grab bag that can mean anything you want when they're talking about symbolism and typology and so forth.
[00:42:44]  They were typological in the hermeneutic.
[00:42:46]  But not relativist.
[00:42:48]  No, no.
[00:42:49]  And it's like you take the Bible the way it obviously is meant to be taken.
[00:42:55]  And remembering that the Bible is a big book.
[00:42:57]  In fact, it's a collection of 66 books written by 40 human authors over the span of 1,500 years.
[00:43:04]  And what do I mean by that?
[00:43:05]  Well, I mean that you don't read the Bible one way, you read the Bible God's way.
[00:43:10]  And different portions of the scripture are written by the human authors and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in different ways.
[00:43:17]  So you read the Psalms.
[00:43:18]  And Job and Ecclesiastes, for instance, as poetry literature.
[00:43:24]  And that means that it doesn't say anything true.
[00:43:26]  No.
[00:43:27]  Of course it says something true, but it says something true in the way that poetry communicates truth.
[00:43:32]  Poetry does not always say something as literal truth.
[00:43:35]  So my point is this there is a way of reading the scripture and knowing that all scripture speaks truly, but not all scripture speaks literally truly.
[00:43:46]  Some of it does, some of it doesn't.
[00:43:48]  Some of it is historic truth, literal truth, physical truth.
[00:43:52]  Metaphorical spiritual truth, it's all truth, but we have to understand what portions of scripture am I reading?
[00:43:59]  Am I reading a historical narrative in the book of Joshua or Ezra or Nehemiah, or am I reading a Pauline epistle, right?
[00:44:06]  An apostolic writing to the church in Ephesus, or am I reading Ecclesiastes or Song of Solomon and poetic literature?
[00:44:13]  Yeah, and even in the historical literature, which is, which I believe is true literal accounts of things that took place because it's history.
[00:44:25]  That God is the author of history.
[00:44:27]  And so he can design a story in such a way that it is both history, true literal history that takes place, and metaphor.
[00:44:35]  And this, like having this typological understanding of the history.
[00:44:38]  Like this real history that took place also serves as a type and a shadow of greater things.
[00:44:43]  That there are patterns and there are types that match up with other parts of Scripture where you're supposed to think, oh, this is like that other thing in Scripture, right?
[00:44:53]  That is good and true because what do liberals who hate God and hate the Bible when they read Scripture?
[00:44:59]  They see the patterns and the typology and the metaphor and everything in in literal history and say well see, this didn't just, this didn't happen, this is just symbolism, like so, like the Book Of Jonah, for example, that didn't happen, right.
[00:45:13]  Right, because that whale right, that whale and I, I think this is true right the the, the great fish that swallows up Jonah well, Jonah is Israel, the great fish is Assyria right, that's.
[00:45:25]  And i'm like yeah, that's true, and and it literally happened, and a fish swallowed Jonah, it literally happened, Right.
[00:45:32]  And so it inoculates good, strong, solid Christians from the assault of liberalism because they, in a sense, they're right about those things.
[00:45:43]  Right.
[00:45:43]  They're right that there are patterns.
[00:45:45]  There are literary devices that are used in scripture.
[00:45:48]  There's poetic things used in the literal parts of scripture.
[00:45:52]  Then they use that to attack the fact that it happened in history.
[00:45:57]  And we could say we can have our cake and eat it too.
[00:45:59]  It did happen.
[00:46:02]  There's all of this rich symbolism there as well.
[00:46:04]  Like you look at, like the Book Of Judges, there are all these people that get crushed by head wounds right, uh?
[00:46:11]  And you think well, why does that happen right?
[00:46:14]  Well obviously, you know.
[00:46:14]  The liberal says, obviously it was fake, because this is a callback to Genesis 3, and so whoever wrote this is is making it all up to make it seem like this, like like Jael driving the tempeh through Sisera or dropping the woman, dropping the stone, right that.
[00:46:29]  So it's all made up.
[00:46:30]  And i'm like no what, it is all made up by God, Right?
[00:46:33]  Right.
[00:46:34]  Who made up history?
[00:46:35]  It actually happened and God ordained it because it also, it literally happened and it points towards something that he's doing.
[00:46:42]  He's a good writer in this redemptive story.
[00:46:45]  And even the fact that it was a woman.
[00:46:47]  A woman drops a stone, a stone, a rock.
[00:46:49]  And a woman drives the ten things.
[00:46:51]  Right.
[00:46:51]  So, what is this woman?
[00:46:53]  Well, the seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head.
[00:46:57]  And this seed of the woman, the serpent crusher, would also be the stone that the builders rejected, the stone which you fall upon the stone.
[00:47:05]  And you'll be shattered, but if the stone falls upon you, you'll be crushed.
[00:47:08]  It's beautiful.
[00:47:09]  Yeah.
[00:47:10]  It's beautiful.
[00:47:10]  And the stone comes from a woman.
[00:47:12]  It's the seed of the woman.
[00:47:13]  Yeah.
[00:47:14]  That's, yeah.
[00:47:14]  The liberal is like, oh, well, see, it's so beautiful, it can't be true.
[00:47:18]  It can't really have happened.
[00:47:20]  And we could say, yes, it literally did happen.
[00:47:22]  So to land the plane for this episode, this is the takeaway that I would have, and then I'll give it to you if you have any final thoughts.
[00:47:29]  But one of the great defenses that we need to shore up against things like Zionism and dispensationalism and all these things is.
[00:47:37]  A solid biblical hermeneutic, how to read the scripture.
[00:47:40]  And for me, right, this doesn't mean you aren't sitting here and saying, you know, we sat in a padded room by ourselves and just thought and with our great minds came to these conclusions.
[00:47:52]  No, no, the reason why you and I have been able to interpret the scripture as well as we have, and not perfectly, but as well as we have, is because one of the great ways to interpret scripture is first, interpret scripture with scripture, but then secondly, interpret scripture with the church.
[00:48:11]  And I know that sounds crazy as a Protestant.
[00:48:14]  I'm not saying that tradition is on the same level of authority as the scripture.
[00:48:19]  No, it's a lesser authority, but sola scriptura does not mean that scripture is the only authority.
[00:48:24]  It means that Scripture is the only infallible authority and the highest authority.
[00:48:29]  But the church and church history and tradition is an authority.
[00:48:34]  Absolutely.
[00:48:34]  And the only reason why you and I have learned to read Scripture as well as we have is because we don't read it alone.
[00:48:41]  We read Scripture with Bothing, we read it with Calvin, we read it with Luther, we read it with Augustine, with Athanasius.
[00:48:49]  And as we've read Scripture alongside this great cloud of witnesses, we've come to.
[00:48:56]  To better conclusions, and here's the beauty not just so that we can stay there, because there is something to be said for semper reformanda to continually be reformed.
[00:49:07]  But you don't take the ball further down the field without first standing on the shoulder of giants.
[00:49:14]  And what we've done, especially Protestants, that has been so sad to watch, is that with each generation, we've decided instead of taking the ball further and standing on the shoulders of the giants who came before us, we've decided.
[00:49:27]  In a spirit of what I believe ultimately is rebellious towards our fathers and a breaking of the fifth commandment, we've decided, well, can we really trust our fathers and the work that they've done?
[00:49:37]  I think that we should start over from square one.
[00:49:39]  So let's, I'm going to give my entire life to go back to the original manuscripts and learn Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic, and I'm going to retranslate the whole Bible.
[00:49:50]  And when I finish my 80 years of living, you know what my conclusion was?
[00:49:54]  KJV was great.
[00:49:57]  Also, NKGV was great.
[00:49:59]  ESV was great.
[00:49:59]  Pretty good.
[00:50:00]  The NASB was pretty good.
[00:50:02]  I could have actually just read the Bible, but I gave my life in suspicion of my fathers.
[00:50:12]  And I wasted my life.
[00:50:15]  All right.
[00:50:15]  So learn how to read the scripture well.
[00:50:17]  And one of the ways to do it is to read it with those saints of old who were tried and true.
[00:50:24]  And then the providence of God, God used to do a lot of theological heavy lifting that is a blessing to the church and shouldn't be dismissed.
[00:50:33]  Thanks for tuning in.
[00:50:34]  you