NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW | The 3 Basic Beliefs Of All Christian Nationalists with AD Robles Aired: 2024-04-15 Duration: 01:06:18 === Legislating a New Religion (15:20) === [00:00:00] Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. [00:00:02] I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries. [00:00:05] In this episode, I'm welcoming one of my good friends. [00:00:07] We've had him 48 times, something like that. [00:00:11] Who's counting? [00:00:11] We've lost count at this point, A.D. Robles. [00:00:14] Coming on the show, we're going to talk about Christian nationalism, but we're doing it different. [00:00:18] This is the whole goal of this episode we want to say, bring it all down to the lowest common denominator. [00:00:26] What do you actually have to believe to be a Christian nationalist? [00:00:29] We've boiled it down to three things. [00:00:32] I think it's incredibly helpful to say, look, this is what all there's a lot of fuss, a lot of debate, a lot of disagreements. [00:00:37] But if you narrow it all in, hone it in, there's really three things that make the difference in I'm a Christian nationalist or I'm not. [00:00:46] So if you're interested in that conversation, tune in now. [00:00:50] Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. [00:00:54] This is Theology Applied. [00:01:02] So let's talk about some of the basics just to add some specificity. [00:01:06] I've been thinking about it and I want to see if you agree with these and maybe if you could add a few. [00:01:12] You've got stuff coming up. [00:01:13] You've got conference gigs coming up. [00:01:14] And so you're knee deep in this stuff. [00:01:16] Right. [00:01:16] Yeah. [00:01:17] I'm in the belly of the beast thinking about it. [00:01:19] I came up with at least three things. [00:01:21] So, real simple, but three, you know, if we're going down to the lowest common denominator of, okay, but what is Christian nationalism? [00:01:29] Or what does it mean to be a Christian nationalist? [00:01:31] What do Christian nationalists believe? [00:01:34] Right. [00:01:36] Conceptions is the theonomy post mill guys, but then there's these classic two kingdom, you know, all mill guys, and then there's, you know, Baptists and there's, and then there's Pados, you know, Presbyterian Pado Baptists. [00:01:48] And so, what, you know, but what would they share in common? [00:01:51] What's the, you know, the lowest common denominator? [00:01:54] And I came up with three ideas. [00:01:55] So one would be a belief that we are called to work towards distinctly explicit Christian nations and that it could happen. [00:02:07] So within the realm of eschatology, Whether you are a historic pre-mill guy or an all-mill guy or a post-mill guy, I think what's required is believing that even if you're, let's work with pre-mill for a moment, even if you're a historic pre-mill guy, you still are at least holding to the possibility that Jesus may tarry for another 50 years, 100 years, or even 500 years. [00:02:36] You're probably not going to say, well, it could be 50,000 years. [00:02:39] That might be more of your. [00:02:41] Your post mill guys, you know, like Doug Wilson saying, you know, we're still in the early church, you know, and I would lean towards that position. [00:02:47] But still, even from a historic pre mill position, it's entirely possible that Jesus, it could still be multiple generations before the return of Christ. [00:02:59] And so, believing one, that we probably, or maybe not even probably, but we at least could still have some time here on earth and that we should, so could have time, should work towards nations being Christian. [00:03:13] In the meantime, during that time. [00:03:15] And then lastly, that it actually could work. [00:03:19] That even if you think things will ultimately get worse, there is still, if you think that the ultimate trajectory is down, that things will degrade further and further until the return of Christ, even if that's your view, even the trajectory downward guy still usually would hold to the possibility that it's not straight down. [00:03:40] There could be some spikes along the way, and that these spikes are worth fighting for because. [00:03:45] It might be a 40 year spike. [00:03:47] And well, who does that affect? [00:03:48] My kids. [00:03:50] That's who it affects. [00:03:52] If the next 40 years could be good, well, my goodness, I'll give my life for that just so that my kids could own a home and get married and have a somewhat normal life like I did, you know? [00:04:04] And so I think that's one of them is it's the one common denominator is not that you must be post mill or all mill or pre mill. [00:04:14] I think you could be any of those three positions, but you're believing that Jesus could tarry, that nations should, that Christians should be involved in the political affairs of a nation, working towards. [00:04:27] The politics being Christianized, and that you could be successful in that, that it's actually worth the effort, one, to be obedient to God, but two, not just obedience, not just we're going to go down swing because that's what God commanded, but there's no way our swinging will be successful. [00:04:45] No, I think the Christian nationalists, even the pre male Christian nationalists, would say it's not just that we're being obedient, but that our obedience is not in vain, that it actually could, if God would be gracious and kind. [00:04:59] It could be effective. [00:05:01] Even if it's short lived, it could be effective. [00:05:03] So I think that's one. [00:05:04] I think a second one is the two tables of the law. [00:05:08] So I think that that's a big one. [00:05:10] There's a lot of guys, a lot of faithful guys in many regards, they're faithful. [00:05:13] We would strongly disagree on this point, but by and large, they're faithful guys and they would say Christians should be involved in politics and Christians should be working towards a Christian nation. [00:05:28] I'm a Christian in the But they don't believe that you should have a Christian government. [00:05:33] That's the difference. [00:05:34] So Christians in government, Christians influencing government versus a distinctly Christian government. [00:05:40] And if you ask them, well, what's the difference? [00:05:41] What's the difference between Christians influencing government? [00:05:44] Because C point A, what if it works? [00:05:46] Right? [00:05:46] So what if the Christian influence on government is successful? [00:05:52] Then how would that be different than Christian government? [00:05:54] And this is always, I think, what it comes down to Christians influencing government. [00:06:00] If they're successful, what it looks like is the second table of the law being righteously legislated according to the word of God, but not the first. [00:06:09] And just for the listener, if you're not familiar with that language, first and second table, we're talking about the Decalogue, Exodus chapter 20, the Ten Commandments. [00:06:16] We have two primary tables of the law. [00:06:19] The first table is the first four of the Ten Commandments love the Lord your God, right? [00:06:24] So have no other gods before me, no idolatry. [00:06:28] Do not make any graven images. [00:06:30] Do not take the Lord's name in vain. [00:06:31] That's the third commandment. [00:06:33] And then remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. [00:06:35] So, first table laws being legislated by a Christian government in a nation, that would be examples like blue laws, being Sabbath laws, which we've had in America in our history. [00:06:48] And you still have hangover blue laws on the books in places like where I am in Texas, like liquor stores. [00:06:54] New York City even has them. [00:06:55] There you go. [00:06:56] Yeah, like liquor stores in Texas don't open on the Lord's day until I think it's noon or something. [00:07:01] It's basically after church. [00:07:03] I'm in a smaller town, Georgetown. [00:07:05] And there's a lot of restaurants that don't open until noon because the morning and every other day of the week, it's not like they just do that, you know, seven days a week. [00:07:13] It's distinctly on the Lord's Day because in the morning you go to church. [00:07:17] And so, blue laws is that's not a crazy thing. [00:07:20] It's not like some hypothetical that's never taken place. [00:07:23] And then another example would be blasphemy laws. [00:07:26] Public blasphemy would be in a Christian nation that would be actually a crime, not just a sin. [00:07:34] It's always a sin. [00:07:36] But the distinction between sins and crimes. [00:07:38] And so, I think the guys who are Want to be faithful Christians in government. [00:07:42] They want to say that a breach of any of the Ten Commandments is a sin. [00:07:45] But the guys who are working distinctly for a Christian government, not just Christians in government, but Christian government, they're going to say, no, it's the first and the second table. [00:07:53] And that gets back to what we were saying earlier about the civil magistrate orienting the citizens and the culture and society in such a way that lends towards not just their temporal earthly good, but their heavenly good. [00:08:06] Again, the civil magistrate enforcing blasphemy laws or blue laws, Sabbath laws, is not going to convert anyone's heart. [00:08:14] That's not what we're saying. [00:08:15] And I think that was one of the counter arguments that at this point has been thoroughly debunked. [00:08:19] And so people are like, oh, they're not saying that. [00:08:22] We're not saying that the civil magistrate, by the power of the sword enforcing the first table, meaning the first four of the Ten Commandments, is going to cause people to be born again. [00:08:33] That's not what we're saying. [00:08:35] But we are saying that a nation having Sabbath laws where businesses and certain things are shut down on the Lord's day and where certain blasphemies against Christ, against the trying God, are not permitted. [00:08:50] That does create a more conducive environment. [00:08:53] It doesn't save people, but it creates a more conducive environment with less perversions and less distractions that might cause someone to be in the right place at the right time to hear the preaching of the gospel and not to be constantly publicly confronted by idolatry and by blasphemy and by worldly vain distractions on the Sabbath. [00:09:17] These kinds of things. [00:09:18] So I think one is you could be any eschatology. [00:09:22] Uh, but you, there's a hopefulness, there's a sense of Jesus might tarry, we should get to work in the meantime, and our work has not been destined by God to be vain, it could be successful, even if only for a moment. [00:09:34] That's one. [00:09:35] Number two, uh, both tables of the law, not just the civil magistrate legislating the second table of the law, uh, things like do not murder, uh, do not commit adultery, but also the first table of the law. [00:09:47] Um, and that public forms of idolatry would not only be a sin but a crime. [00:09:52] That, that, that, again. [00:09:53] The public thing that's the key factor. [00:09:56] Uh, so we're not talking about having the secret police that breaks into people's homes to see if they have a shrine in their closet to a false god so that you can uh imprison them. [00:10:06] That's not what we're talking about. [00:10:07] We're talking about um, it's in your face, it's public. [00:10:10] You're talking about the sisters of perpetual indulgence, which is an actual thing where a guy pretends to be Jesus with fake blood on him on a fake cross and uh, a bunch of nuns are gyrating and twerking in front of him. [00:10:24] Yeah, you go, I know this might shock you, but apparently. [00:10:27] At least one of them is a known pedophile. [00:10:29] Oh, shocking. [00:10:30] Wow. [00:10:31] I never would have been able to connect those dots. [00:10:33] Thank you. [00:10:34] But yeah, so we're saying, yeah, that should be illegal. [00:10:36] That should be a crime. [00:10:39] And so, anyway, so I think that's the second one. [00:10:41] So the first one is a hopefulness, general hopefulness, regardless of your eschatology. [00:10:45] We should work and our work could work. [00:10:49] Second is not only the second table of the law, but the first table of the law. [00:10:53] And that really comes to the guys who are just, I want to be a faithful Christian witness in government, in politics. [00:10:59] But we should not be legislating the first table of the law. [00:11:01] I think that's another distinction between the Christian nationalists and other guys who aren't, they still, at some level, I think, have bought into the myth of neutrality. [00:11:12] So they, because they would never say, we should, you know, I hope that everything becomes Muslim or I hope everything becomes Buddhist or I hope, like, no, they're saying it shouldn't be any of those things. [00:11:22] So you shouldn't have the Satan statue in the, you know, in the, what was it, Iowa or Ohio? [00:11:29] I think it was Iowa, state capital. [00:11:31] Yeah, Iowa. [00:11:32] Right. [00:11:33] Yeah. [00:11:33] So you shouldn't have the Satan shrine, but you also shouldn't have a Jesus shrine. [00:11:38] I think those guys are still operating under it. [00:11:41] And I would just say, guys, you've got to wake up. [00:11:45] We are long past neutrality. [00:11:49] That play of, well, in the public square, things are going to be neutral. [00:11:53] Surely, you have detected that that was always a joke. [00:11:59] What is wokeism and leftism and DEI and this and that and the other, if not religious? [00:12:05] It is a religion. [00:12:07] So a religion is always going to fill the void. [00:12:10] If you push Christianity, Back into the closet out of the public square and say this is a private affair, then it doesn't stay empty. [00:12:21] It gets filled. [00:12:22] The public square gets filled with something else, some other kind of religion. [00:12:26] And this momentary appearance, that's all it was, was the optic. [00:12:31] This momentary appearance of neutrality in our nation was, in my assessment, not because classical liberalism actually worked. [00:12:39] It's not because neutrality is a real thing. [00:12:42] We just need to get back and achieve it again. [00:12:45] All it was was it was. [00:12:46] The cruise liner of Christendom going out from port out to sea, and then the cruise liner of paganism coming in to replace it. [00:12:56] But for a moment, these two ships were passing you know, one had not yet docked, aka paganism, and the other had left the dock. [00:13:03] And it, my point is, classical liberalism I think it only appeared to work temporarily because it was borrowing, you know, the capital of Christendom. [00:13:12] And once Christendom was further eroded, and we further, you know, as a society pushed back on our Christian principles and founding and all these things. [00:13:21] Lo and behold, what did we find? [00:13:23] Well, we stayed neutral. [00:13:24] No, we didn't. [00:13:26] We became completely religious, utterly religious. [00:13:30] It just was a different religion. [00:13:32] And so I think that's a big one is viewing that. [00:13:35] So the general hopefulness, regardless of your eschatology, we should get to work and our work could actually be successful. [00:13:42] Both tables of the law and realizing that neutrality is a myth. [00:13:46] If you don't legislate the first table of the law, there will be a first table. [00:13:51] Of sorts, still legislated, but it'll be for another religion instead of yours. [00:13:55] It won't be neutral. [00:13:56] It won't remain empty. [00:13:58] And then the last one, I can't think of it, so I'm just going to let you respond to those and I'll try to remember. [00:14:03] Hey, that's good. [00:14:04] That's good. [00:14:05] Well, yeah, man, there's a lot there. [00:14:08] I think so. [00:14:10] The first one about Christian nations, you know, we should be working towards Christian nations and that it could actually happen. [00:14:17] I think, you know, that one resonates with so many people. [00:14:21] You know what I mean? [00:14:22] You know, and I think that there's some eggheads out there that are trying to make this weird argument where it's somehow bad to have a Christian nation and it's, you know, distraction from the gospel, whatever it is that they say. [00:14:35] But that is a losing argument because every regular Joe Christian remembers so many of their teachers without even blinking. [00:14:47] Some of the guys that are against Christian nationalism now used to talk like this, but they remembered. [00:14:53] When they learned from the Proverbs that righteousness exalts a nation and sin is a reproach to any people. [00:15:00] And they applied that to nations today, you know, and they would point out the evil in the United States and they would warn against the judgment of God against that evil because they knew that righteousness exalts a nation and sin is a reproach to any people. [00:15:17] It's a very simple concept. [00:15:18] It comes right out of the Proverbs. === Righteousness Exalts the Nation (14:08) === [00:15:20] It preaches well and it's true. [00:15:23] It's true. [00:15:23] And that's the point. [00:15:25] And so eschatology makes no freaking difference. [00:15:28] This is why you had guys like Jerry Falwell who would preach the same kind of stuff. [00:15:33] You know, he didn't want the nations to be judged. [00:15:35] And he thought that his effort could actually do something that could actually help. [00:15:41] It could help the nation be righteous. [00:15:43] And I can't remember how many songs I heard when I was a kid from like Carmen and stuff like that about, you know, the nation, you know, finding righteousness and not being judged by God and being blessed by God and all these kinds of things. [00:15:55] This is the thing. [00:15:56] And so when people hear that, you know, no, no, we should be a Christian nation and we should work towards that end. [00:16:04] And whether or not we're able to do it, In the here and now, we should be setting our kids up or our grandkids up. [00:16:10] And like we should do whatever we can so that our kids can grow up in a righteous nation, a nation that exalts, that instead of exalting evil, exalts righteousness and promotes righteousness and things like that. [00:16:23] These are things that are achievable. [00:16:25] And we can remember them from our very recent past when you were a homosexual, you had to hide it and it was in the dark alleys. [00:16:33] It's not like it didn't exist, it existed, but it wasn't promoted as if it was a good thing. [00:16:38] This is pretty simple. [00:16:39] It's not like we're saying much that's outrageous. [00:16:42] Just don't promote it. [00:16:45] And so these kinds of things, it's like now that's a big sticking point with non Christian nationalists. [00:16:51] But I think that if you take it out of the context of the Christian nationalism discussion, most Christians resonate with that. [00:16:59] And that's what I mean. [00:16:59] This is a layman's movement. [00:17:01] Laymen get it, laymen understand a Christian nation is gooder than transing kids. [00:17:05] That's basically it. [00:17:07] And that we should work towards those ends. [00:17:08] Those ends could be accomplished. [00:17:11] At least theoretically, even if you don't think that they're going to be accomplished, like Jerry Falwell, you know, he had a negative eschatology. [00:17:19] Even if he didn't think it could be accomplished and Christ could come at any time, he works towards those ends. [00:17:24] And a lot of guys do that. [00:17:25] A lot of guys do that. [00:17:27] That's a good one because, yes, and it's actually very strategically advantageous to us because it is a very good look for us when the anti Christian nationalists come and try to pretend like a Christian nation would be bad. [00:17:42] It would be a bad thing, it'd be evil. [00:17:46] That's a terrible argument in every way. [00:17:49] It's not true, number one. [00:17:50] And number two, it looks awful. [00:17:52] And you end up signaling against all the good stuff that's happening. [00:17:56] And you end up being this weirdo that everyone's looking at, like, are you out of your mind? [00:18:01] Only an egghead could come up with something that stupid. [00:18:03] I mean, I'm serious. [00:18:04] Only an egghead could come up with something that's that lame. [00:18:07] So I love that. [00:18:08] I love that. [00:18:08] That it can happen. [00:18:10] That does not have to be a positive post millennial eschatology. [00:18:14] It doesn't. [00:18:15] And I think if you look at Christian nationalists, They're everywhere across the board when it comes to eschatology. [00:18:22] They really are. [00:18:22] All over the place. [00:18:24] And I would argue that there are a lot of charismatic believers. [00:18:29] And I mean believers in the sense that there's a lot of regenerate ones too. [00:18:33] But I mean just, they're Christians that would fall under Christian nationalism most likely. [00:18:38] And they all are pre mills. [00:18:40] They're all dispensationalists, you know what I mean? [00:18:42] Or whatever. [00:18:43] And it's across the board. [00:18:46] The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king. [00:18:51] As Americans, we hate the word king. [00:18:54] Civilian ownership of body armor is about helping people to have increased power to resist tyrants and criminals. [00:19:02] And so Armored Republic is about helping you to preserve your God-given rights to the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ because he is the King of Kings and he governs kings and he will judge them. [00:19:15] This is Armored Republic and in a republic there is no king but Christ. [00:19:21] We are free craftsmen and we are honored to be your armor spread of choice. [00:19:39] You know, guys were like, why are you wearing the label? [00:19:41] You know, I was a pretty early adopter and so were you. [00:19:43] And why not just be, you know, a post millennial theonomist, right? [00:19:47] You already came out and said that that's what you were. [00:19:50] And it's, I haven't changed my position on that. [00:19:52] I would say that, you know, Christian nationalism is like the whole house, you know, and my particular bedroom in that house is general equity, theonomy, post mail. [00:20:00] You know, that's my room. [00:20:03] And we don't have to have all that figured out ahead of time. [00:20:06] Like we can be in the same house and we can have different opinions on the law too. [00:20:10] Because again, I think that. [00:20:12] You know, that the law itself, like the theonomic version of this, which I'd fall under there too. [00:20:18] So we're in the same team there. [00:20:20] But all that stuff, that's actually not the primary focus of Christian nationalism. [00:20:24] It's definitely part of it and it's definitely important, but that's actually not the house. [00:20:30] That's not the main point. [00:20:32] We can talk about that and debate that. [00:20:34] And you know what? [00:20:35] When those times come, I'm sure there'll be a Christian nationalist that's not Dusty Devers that disagrees with some of the stuff that Dusty Devers said. [00:20:42] But the point is, he's on the same team in general. [00:20:45] Right. [00:20:46] As Dusty Devers. [00:20:47] And so that's fine. [00:20:47] There's nothing wrong with that. [00:20:48] Exactly. [00:20:49] Yeah. [00:20:50] So, guys who were saying, you know, well, why adopt the Christian nationalist label if you already have a label? [00:20:57] There's already been a movement of theonomic post mill guys working towards making a difference. [00:21:04] You already have a team. [00:21:05] And I would say, you know, my answer to that question is because that team for a very long time has been very, very small. [00:21:13] It's a small team. [00:21:15] You know, it's a good team. [00:21:16] It's also been pretty sectarian, in my opinion, a lot of the time. [00:21:19] Explain that. [00:21:21] I think that a lot of the theonomists that I remember reading and interacting with, they're very like a very like, if you're not a purist theonomist like us, then that's like an anti law. [00:21:40] That's like another law. [00:21:42] That's another Christ. [00:21:46] It's either a pure theonomic law, like I believe, or it's evil. [00:21:51] And I think that that's not like a good thing. [00:21:56] I think I agree with a lot of that stuff. [00:21:58] I think there are certain laws that are just pure evil that are not theonomic. [00:22:02] And I think that, of course, if you're going to try to make a good law, of course, you should try to be as close to the law as possible, the law that God gave. [00:22:11] But I think that we do need to have prudence here, too, that we need to consider. [00:22:17] You know what I mean? [00:22:18] It would be good if there were no prisons. [00:22:21] But would I get rid of prisons tomorrow if I could snap my finger? [00:22:24] No. [00:22:24] No. [00:22:25] I wouldn't do it. [00:22:26] And I think that it would be stupid to do it. [00:22:27] And I think it'd be foolish to do it. [00:22:29] But a lot of the theonomists that I've read in the past or interacted with would say that I'm not a theonomist because of that. [00:22:37] And I think that that's kind of sectarian. [00:22:39] You know what I mean? [00:22:40] Like, you're not going to, you're not, it's hard to make a movement like that when absolute purity is required right away. [00:22:46] So I'm not, I'm not like, I don't, I'm not hating on those people because I get where they're coming from. [00:22:50] I do. [00:22:51] But politically, this is a political thing too. [00:22:58] You do have to consider prudence. [00:23:01] What's possible? [00:23:03] What you can actually accomplish? [00:23:05] You got to deal in reality, I think. [00:23:08] I think sometimes theonomists don't deal in reality. [00:23:11] Right. [00:23:11] Yeah. [00:23:12] Yeah. [00:23:12] I think that's fair. [00:23:13] I think that sometimes the theonomist guys are just, it's a little bit of the hypothetical, it's the theory and not necessarily as much of the practice. [00:23:23] You need that because you need to know what you're shooting for. [00:23:26] But you also have to deal in reality. [00:23:29] Right. [00:23:29] Exactly. [00:23:30] How do we get there? [00:23:31] Yeah. [00:23:32] So grateful for the Theonomous guys. [00:23:34] I have no intention. [00:23:35] I didn't bring it up to put any of those guys down, but just to say, my answer to that question when guys say, well, you already had a label. [00:23:43] Why do you adopt this other one? [00:23:45] Because it's a bigger house that links me with a bigger team. [00:23:50] And I think we forget, right? [00:23:53] We listen to our Christian podcasts and we go to our Christian church and we have our Christian friends, and that's all wonderful. [00:23:59] But I think we forget we are vastly outnumbered. [00:24:03] Like, you know what I mean? [00:24:05] It's one thing if you're Gideon. [00:24:07] And God is with an audible voice, is supernaturally telling you to whittle down the team and make it smaller. [00:24:15] But last I checked, I haven't gotten an audible word from the Lord saying, Hey, you know what? [00:24:20] Like, you know what I mean? [00:24:20] We're already a sliver of the 330 million people in these United States. [00:24:26] A sliver, like when we talk about genuine born again Christians, right? [00:24:32] Just starting there. [00:24:32] So just all Christians total that are actually regenerate. [00:24:36] If we just start with that, you're, I, you know, Only God sees, you know, man looks at the outward appearance, God sees the heart. [00:24:43] I don't have election goggles, I can't tell you. [00:24:46] But I would eat my hat if it's not less than 50% in terms of regenerate hearts, true Christians in this nation. [00:24:55] And then you're not just talking about that, you're talking about out of just the total amount of Christians that you have to start with, you're whittling that down even further in terms of who's willing to get involved and who actually wants a Christian nation and who actually thinks that blasphemy laws. [00:25:14] Is a good idea. [00:25:15] And so when I started thinking about this a couple of years ago and having conversations with people offline, when I found that there were some other guys at the time, not a lot, but some, some other guys that thought, yeah, we should have blasphemy laws and we should have Sabbath laws. [00:25:31] And the civil magistrate absolutely has a right and obligation under God to legislate both tables of the law of God. [00:25:39] But also, I'm not post millennial and I'm a classic two kingdom guy and I don't really like theonomy. [00:25:45] I just didn't feel like I was in a position to say, well, Well, then you can't be on the team. [00:25:49] I was like, I'll take it. [00:25:51] I'll take you. [00:25:53] I'll take you. [00:25:55] It's 10 dudes, 10 theonomists in a room up against 330 million people who are killing babies and chopping off little kids' reproductive organs. [00:26:09] Exactly. [00:26:10] We are beggars in this game. [00:26:12] We cannot afford to be choosers. [00:26:15] Exactly. [00:26:15] The political situation we find ourselves in is really at a basic level. [00:26:21] I keep saying basic, but it's true. [00:26:22] Like, we're not really working at this point. [00:26:27] It's not an option for us to have, I don't know, like, I don't even really know what I'm trying to say. [00:26:35] Like, a very nuanced, or let's just go with prisons, like eliminating prisons and bringing back slavery and restitution and stuff like that. [00:26:46] That's not on the table right now. [00:26:47] What we're debating is whether or not you should be able to trans kids and kill kids and things like that. [00:26:54] You know, like it's, it's, we'll get there. [00:26:57] We'll get there. [00:26:58] We shouldn't have prisons the way we have them now. [00:27:00] Right. [00:27:01] That's, that's true. [00:27:02] We shouldn't do that. [00:27:03] But we can't let, like, it can't just be like an all or nothing kind of thing. [00:27:08] We do have to make political alliances with other Christians. [00:27:11] And I'm not saying that, like, we're, we're, I'm not talking about calling in the Egyptians here. [00:27:15] These are other Christians that, like, may not, may not understand and may not get exactly all the things that we get. [00:27:21] But we can work together on some things and we can also be in the same, uh, The same nation, you know what I mean? [00:27:28] And we can debate these things. [00:27:29] And I think sometimes people forget. [00:27:30] Like, I was talking to someone who was telling me that they get very discouraged with all of the political maneuverings at a certain denomination, you know, like a Presbyterian denomination. [00:27:43] They get very discouraged of all the backdoor deals and all kinds of stuff, right? [00:27:48] I understand that. [00:27:48] I get that. [00:27:50] That can be discouraging. [00:27:51] But I think what you need to remember is in the Bible, when you see disagreements with the apostles or with just anyone, it doesn't have to be the apostles, we just hear that there was a disagreement and then they made a decision. [00:28:03] That's all we get. [00:28:05] But they're just people. [00:28:07] They're just people. [00:28:08] And so they were having these kinds of debates, and there were backdoor meetings, and they were trying to figure out okay, here's why I think you should bring this guy with us. [00:28:18] And if you join me on this one, we'll talk about this thing that you want to do over here. [00:28:24] They were doing all the same stuff. [00:28:26] They're just people. [00:28:27] And you need to make alliances, and you need to compromise, and you need to do these kinds of things. [00:28:33] You don't compromise with evil, but you. [00:28:35] This is the game of politics. [00:28:37] You know what I mean? [00:28:37] If you're going to have any kind of political movement or any kind of political march towards good, there's going to be situations where you need to team up with people that are less than perfect. [00:28:50] By the way, you're less than perfect too, and so am I. [00:28:52] So, so, so, and when you say you're talking to the listener, not me. [00:28:58] I'm just kidding. [00:29:00] Yeah. [00:29:01] Yeah, sure. [00:29:01] Because I'm perfect. [00:29:02] I like to think that I'm perfect. [00:29:04] No, you're right. [00:29:04] Right. [00:29:05] You see what I'm saying? [00:29:06] So, like, these kinds of like, In house discussions where, okay, maybe we're not ready for the Sabbath law today in every state. [00:29:18] Maybe some states are. [00:29:20] But we can certainly work towards some of these more basic level things as we go towards that kind of thing. === Boundaries for Christian Law (04:23) === [00:29:28] But I think that actually is a good segue to your next point the two tables of the law. [00:29:33] Because when I was listening to you, I agree with this. [00:29:37] This is basic. [00:29:39] But I wanted to just add. [00:29:41] That for some people, I would still want to call them Christian nationalists, even if they weren't ready for the state to do the first table of the law anytime soon, but they at least acknowledged it as a legitimate function of the civil magistrate. [00:29:57] Because I think that there's a lot of people that, you know, they think, okay, they're applying wisdom and prudence. [00:30:02] They're like, do I really want, you know, Gretchen Whitmer or her proteges to be in charge of the civil law? [00:30:12] No, of course you don't. [00:30:13] Right. [00:30:14] Of course you don't. [00:30:16] But knowing it's a legitimate function of the civil government, I think is necessary to be a Christian nationalist. [00:30:23] And so, you know, at some point, that's a good distinction. [00:30:27] Yeah. [00:30:28] The guys who at least say, you know what, they're not calling you a heretic for suggesting it. [00:30:35] They're at least saying, yeah, this is legitimate. [00:30:37] And we did it in the past here in America and England. [00:30:41] So there are plenty of guys from the Puritans, from the Covenanters, from the Reformers, you know. [00:30:46] This is perfectly legitimate. [00:30:47] It's well within the bounds of orthodoxy to say that the civil magistrate, that sphere of government, does have that right. [00:30:57] Go ahead. [00:30:57] This was another faceplant of the anti Christian nationalists because they came out and said things like if you have the civil governing authority implementing the first table, that would be tyranny and that would be un American. [00:31:11] America would cease to be America. [00:31:12] They would get all hot under the collar about that. [00:31:16] That was a faceplant. [00:31:17] It was just a total faceplant because. [00:31:19] We can so easily say, you know, when America was established, we had all this stuff. [00:31:24] Right. [00:31:25] It was all there and it didn't go away immediately because the Constitution was ratified. [00:31:29] Oops, I guess we got to get rid of this stuff. [00:31:31] That's not how it went down. [00:31:33] So, that was another face plan. [00:31:35] And so, lots of regular people like you and me, we went to, you know, I went to public school. [00:31:40] I don't know if you did or not, but public school people, you know, we learned in school that it was very bad that the government did all these things. [00:31:48] But we can see in our history that it was actually there and it was good and everyone knew it was legitimate. [00:31:54] And so, regular people see that and they're like, oh, no, no, we're wrong now. [00:31:59] We used to be right. [00:32:00] We're wrong now. [00:32:00] Right. [00:32:01] And so, Yeah, I think I want to. [00:32:03] I want to. [00:32:04] Here's what I want to do. [00:32:05] This is why I mentioned that to you, Joel, because I want to create room for people to have arguments and debates about what's prudent to do immediately, what's prudent to do in the next five years, in the next 10 years. [00:32:18] But you have to. [00:32:19] What I was saying, though, to echo you, I was agreeing with you, is to have those debates about when and how. [00:32:28] So, what gets closed down? [00:32:31] What's the first thing that we're going to close down when we start to roll out blue laws? [00:32:35] You know, like with the Sabbath. [00:32:37] Like, you know, that's a perfectly fine conversation. [00:32:42] But I don't think that you're, you know, so like I said earlier, the whole appeal of Christian nationalism to me is the fact that it's a big tent. [00:32:49] So I like that. [00:32:50] So hear that. [00:32:51] But I don't think you're a Christian nationalist. [00:32:54] As big as that tent is and needs to be if we're going to be successful and have an impact, as big as it is, it still has to have borders, it has to have walls, it has to be definable. [00:33:04] There's some kind of boundaries. [00:33:06] And I would maintain that if a guy. [00:33:09] Is not ready for the civil magistrate as it exists today with Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi to legislate and enforce the first table of law. [00:33:20] I'm very sympathetic. [00:33:22] But if that guy says that that's something that biblically, scripturally is outside the purview of the civil magistrate inherently, that it's always wrong in any time, in any place for the civil magistrate to punish blasphemies and to uphold the Sabbath, then that guy's just, he's not a Christian nationalist. [00:33:39] I'm sorry. [00:33:40] Absolutely. [00:33:40] I'm going to use my whatever, whatever. [00:33:43] Credibility I have as a leader within the Christian nationalist movement to say, nope, I'm drawing, it's a big tent, but it ain't that big. [00:33:49] I'm sorry, you're not on the team. === Common Sense from God (06:50) === [00:33:51] Yeah, absolutely. [00:33:52] No, no, I'm with you 100% on that. [00:33:55] You know, I think you have to at least believe that it is a legitimate function for a Christian nation. [00:34:00] And I think, too, that's the key maybe, because if we're going to have a Christian nation, it needs to be distinctly Christian. [00:34:06] And that's going to require enforcement of a distinctly Christian entire table of the law. [00:34:12] I mean, a lot of the first four commandments, that's That's where you do that, where you establish this is a legitimately, we're honoring Christ in this. [00:34:20] And that's where the whole second table of the law stems from. [00:34:23] I think that's part of the problem is that you get rid of the first table of the law and then the second table. [00:34:28] So if I get rid of loving the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, then the commandment for me to love my neighbor as myself is now suspended in midair. [00:34:38] It's not, there's no standard for it. [00:34:41] There's no backdrop. [00:34:42] There's no structure. [00:34:43] There's no support. [00:34:44] And that's where all of a sudden, You get loving your neighbor looks like women's health care rights instead of protecting the unborn. [00:34:52] And it looks like a 12 year old's right to choose their gender and get it totally eroded. [00:34:58] It's totally eroded because it used to be in the United States that when God said, you shall not kill, we understood that you can't murder with impunity. [00:35:07] You take away the Christian part of this, which is what we've done over the past years. [00:35:14] And now all of a sudden, well, sometimes it's okay to kill. [00:35:17] Exactly. [00:35:17] Love for neighbor. [00:35:19] So, the only way that you can maintain and preserve genuine love, because love for neighbor, it's pretty simple. [00:35:27] It's only two main words there. [00:35:28] You know, love your neighbor as you. [00:35:29] It's love and neighbor. [00:35:31] But both of those do beg a question. [00:35:33] I need to know who is my neighbor, and I also need to know what is love. [00:35:38] What is love? [00:35:39] Baby, don't hurt me. [00:35:40] But I need to know that. [00:35:42] And it's only the Bible, it's only the Christian worldview that defines for me what love objectively is so that love isn't hijacked and tossing and turning and going every which way with the culture and the latest fad. [00:36:00] And it's also only the Bible that tells me who my neighbor is. [00:36:04] That, yes, we live in a universal neighborhood. [00:36:06] Every single human being made in the image of God is my neighbor. [00:36:10] The born, the unborn, the person who speaks Swahili over in Kenya, and the person in China, and the person in these United States of America. [00:36:19] But the Bible tells me that I live in a universal neighborhood, but it also gives me an order of loves, an order of affections. [00:36:28] It tells me, in terms of these neighbors, yes, every image bearer is my neighbor, but I am. [00:36:33] Called as a finite human being to prioritize some neighbors over others. [00:36:38] I'm to love my wife, one particular woman, more than I love all women. [00:36:43] I'm to love my children more than I love all children. [00:36:46] And likewise, our civil magistrate, our civil rulers, should care about stopping a full blown invasion of military aged men at our southern border more than Ukraine or Israel. [00:36:58] That's just, I was about to say, that's just common sense. [00:37:01] And it is, but common sense comes from God. [00:37:04] Common sense comes from God. [00:37:06] And when you reject, I was preaching this just the other week in our church, and it's just showing from the Proverbs and other texts of Scripture that there is a direct correlation between rebellion and stupidity. [00:37:17] And likewise, a direct correlation between obedience and righteousness and wisdom. [00:37:24] Like you obey God to the T and you become smarter. [00:37:29] You really do. [00:37:30] Over time, the way that that shapes you, the way that you begin to think about life and the world, like you become wiser. [00:37:38] The Proverbs constantly says that the simple man, right? [00:37:41] So simple as opposed to wisdom, is also the wicked man. [00:37:45] It's not, oh, he's a really good guy, but he's just simple. [00:37:48] The Proverbs never speaks like that. [00:37:49] It never speaks of a good, simple man. [00:37:52] The simple man is always a bad man, and the wise man is always a good man. [00:37:57] And so, yeah, so if you reject righteousness, you become stupid. [00:38:04] And so, all these ploys from politicians, you know, rhinos, you know, Republican in name only. [00:38:09] Saying, well, I'm just advocating for common sense measures and common sense. [00:38:13] But well, here's the problem these United States of America, these 330 million people, they don't have common sense. [00:38:20] We lost that. [00:38:21] We lost that a long time ago, arguably 130 years ago. [00:38:24] We are way past the days where the average person has common sense. [00:38:29] We need, if we're going to have common sense, then we need a common source of sense, the Word of God. [00:38:39] Yeah. [00:38:40] Yeah. [00:38:41] I think this second one here is probably a little bit harder for a lot of normies to swallow, but it is. [00:38:50] But I don't think it needs to be, though. [00:38:52] I think we can show examples from even some current news that kind of show this. [00:38:59] And in fact, there was a Supreme Court decision in Alabama about embryos, about whether they're actually in vitro. [00:39:09] Yeah, that's right. [00:39:11] And, you know, the Chief Justice, you know, cited the image of God as the reason why he concurred with the opinion. [00:39:19] You know what I mean? [00:39:20] He says you can't destroy a human being that bears the image of God without facing his glory. [00:39:26] And so he's saying, look, the reason why we protect human beings is because God is there. [00:39:34] We bear his image. [00:39:35] He told us to. [00:39:36] And it's as simple as that. [00:39:37] And so, like, when you connect it like that in something that's current, people can easily see that, okay, so if you take out the pull part that's Christian about this in the first four commandments, that's when you start messing up the other stuff that they can swallow easily. [00:39:57] Yeah, everyone believes the government should protect life. [00:40:00] Right, you know, you know, should enforce murder laws and stuff like that, but you can't disconnect them. [00:40:06] And so, I think, like, that point can be made to normies. [00:40:09] It's something that there's been a lot of indoctrination done to us that has made us kind of just recoil. [00:40:15] Oh, my goodness, blasphemy laws that's like the worst thing ever. [00:40:18] Um, but it can be overcome. [00:40:21] And I think it's one of those, it's a simple argument to make, which is good because I think that that it will resonate with normies if you just make the argument. [00:40:30] And I think the other thing, too, is that again, the opposite argument, like arguing against it. [00:40:35] It's just so laughable that it helps us every time they make something, some argument like that. === Overcoming Theology Indoctrination (10:51) === [00:40:41] If you love the Psalms, you're going to want to hear this. [00:40:44] We all know that finding quality music that's theologically sound can be difficult these days. [00:40:50] That's why the Psalms Project is putting together all 150 Psalms with every single verse included to artful, creative, professionally produced music without gutting or censoring the God breathed text. [00:41:05] The Psalms Project is led by Shane Halman, a Reformed believer. [00:41:09] Who holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith? [00:41:13] Here's a quick sample. [00:41:15] The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? [00:41:27] To hear more music from the Psalms Project, including their new album for Psalms 47 through 55 that just dropped, go to thesalmsproject.com. [00:41:36] Again, go to thesalmsproject.com today. [00:41:40] The third one is, um, Of kind of bottom line, you know, lowest common denominator of being a Christian nationalist. [00:41:47] And this is another one that, like what we were talking about earlier, you did a good job bringing the theonomy into the conversation and saying, well, it is a little bit different than theonomy in the sense that it's the theonomist, not all of them, you know, but sometimes tend to be an ideologue, whereas the Christian nationalist tends to be a little bit more of a realist. [00:42:07] You know, that was one of the distinctions that you brought up. [00:42:09] And then I said, another distinction is it's just a larger tent. [00:42:12] It allows. [00:42:13] Me to be on the same team with someone like Joe Boot, who would not be a big fan of the label Christian Nationalist. [00:42:21] He is a theonomist, and so am I. [00:42:23] I agree with Joe Boot and his theology and his doctrine. [00:42:26] But then I could partner with Joe Boot, and I could also partner with somebody like Stephen Wolf. [00:42:30] Like Joe Boot's going to be speaking at our conference in March, and then I'm going to be at New Christendom Conference with Eric Kahn and Brian Sauvay and those guys, and Stephen Wolf will be there. [00:42:39] And I can be in both of those realms as a Christian Nationalist, even though I would personally prescribe to a general equity theonomy. [00:42:46] So I think that's helpful. [00:42:48] But the other thing, another common denominator, number three, is that I think is different with the Christian nationalist than the smaller, narrow group of your hardcore theonomists is this. [00:43:01] The Christian nationalist believes that the nation can change, that it can, in fact, become Christian in not just one, but two ways. [00:43:12] It can become Christian bottom up by God sending a mass move of his spirit and a revival that regenerates millions of hearts to where people. [00:43:22] Truly are born again, begin to love God and love his gospel and his law and desire to see his law upheld publicly by the civil magistrate in our political forms. [00:43:35] That's one way. [00:43:37] But a lot of the theonomous guys, and even some of the post mill theonomic guys, sometimes they speak. [00:43:46] I want to be sensitive because I like these guys and they're friends, but sometimes they speak in such a way that it seems as though that's the only way. [00:43:53] God could bring this about. [00:43:56] They'll say it's good to have these conversations to a certain degree, you know, to talk about, you know, what Christian laws would look like and what a Christian, you know, nation would look like and the landscape so that we know what we're aiming for and all these kinds of things. [00:44:09] But none of this is going to, we're not even going to be able to get an inch of this, make any of this happen apart from a mass revival, a mass move. [00:44:18] And that's where the Christian nationalists would differ from the theonomists. [00:44:22] And in this regard, I'm going to lean heavier on my Christian nationalist side than my theonomist side. [00:44:28] I believe that I am working towards and praying towards, as an individual Christian man, as a husband, a father, and a pastor, towards if God would be so kind, that I'm doing my best to lay the kindling if God chooses in His sovereignty to send the fire for a revival. [00:44:43] If God wants to do it that way, bottom up, a bunch of regenerate hearts first, then working towards Christian government next, great. [00:44:50] I'm also, though, a firm believer that if you look at the biblical history of Israel, Or Nineveh, or Babylon, or Assyria, or the last 2,000 years of world history, Christian history and world history, King Alfred, Constantine. [00:45:10] This is the problem. [00:45:11] The problem is reading. [00:45:12] Reading gets you in trouble. [00:45:13] So, one of the things I've been doing these last few years is reading. [00:45:17] And I think that's part of the reason why a bunch of guys are becoming Christian nationalists is because they actually are. [00:45:21] This is how we started the episode. [00:45:22] They're actually doing the reading. [00:45:23] As I started reading about history, reading the scripture, reading the Old Testament, of course. [00:45:28] But then also reading about the last 2,000 years of history. [00:45:32] You know what I've found? [00:45:34] What did you find? [00:45:36] You found lots of revivals leading to bottom up revolution, correct? [00:45:40] Nope. [00:45:43] And it's kind of, it bummed me out at first. [00:45:45] I was like, oh man. [00:45:47] But no, statistically, God can do that. [00:45:50] And we pray for it. [00:45:51] We work towards it. [00:45:51] That's great. [00:45:52] Praise God. [00:45:53] But statistically, that is not what God has chosen to do in history. [00:45:57] Instead, and God, now that's not to say God doesn't send revival. [00:46:00] The question, though, is what comes first, the chicken or the egg? [00:46:04] God does send revival. [00:46:05] He's done it a lot of times, and it's powerful and it's beautiful, and it lends towards the end goal or the end result of revival lots and lots of born again Christians, lots of regenerate hearts, lots of people going to heaven instead of hell. [00:46:17] Praise God, eternal good, right? [00:46:20] Not just the temporary, but the eternal good. [00:46:21] But if you look at what kickstarted, what happened first, very often what it is is a sliver of the population, a small group of people are strategic and gain influence and power. [00:46:35] And they begin to wield that power in Christian ways. [00:46:40] And then they do that in business, they do it in wealth, in finance, and in politics with the government. [00:46:48] And in the government aspect, they begin to wield the Christian sword in a Christian direction. [00:46:53] And then the law, which does not convert, but the law of God begins to work as the Bible says it does as a tutor, and it begins to shape and instruct and disciple the populace. [00:47:06] The population of citizens within, and it begins to inform them on what true morality is, what actually is holy, what is debased. [00:47:16] People begin to feel a sense of heightened awareness of their own sinfulness. [00:47:22] And then, with many, not all, but with many, then through the church and now gospel preaching on that backdrop of understanding properly what the law of God is, then come your gospel revival preachers, and a bunch of people have a heightened awareness of their sin and therefore their need for a savior, and they get saved. [00:47:40] That's the order of events 90% of the time. [00:47:45] And so, I just feel like if. [00:47:47] If whatever Christian nationalism is, get again the three common denominators. [00:47:53] I think one of them has to be that Christian nationalists believe that God can change a whole nation. [00:48:00] I mean, I'm talking every fabric, a complete overhaul of a nation and make it a Christian nation. [00:48:09] But he can do it bottom up and he can also do it top down. [00:48:13] We do not need 50% of the population plus one to have regenerate hearts before we can get to work. [00:48:22] I love it. [00:48:23] I love it. [00:48:23] That's a really good one. [00:48:24] And I have nothing to push back on at all. [00:48:27] I think that is really, really important because I think, even when you think about the political aspect of this, oftentimes people will say stuff like, well, you're just a small movement. [00:48:41] You'll never amount to anything. [00:48:44] I've said so often in politics, you do not need 51% of the people to agree with you on something to get something done. [00:48:54] I mean, here's the thing. [00:48:55] I think that there's a legitimate chance to really put a strong effort into, at the very least, limiting pornography. [00:49:08] But I think banning pornography is on the table in the next couple decades. [00:49:13] And the amount of people that have come out that said that they're for banning pornography recently, and even in the wake of Dusty Devers and some of the stuff he's been doing, and I'm talking big names. [00:49:28] Has just been so amazing to see. [00:49:30] We don't need to wait, like you said, 51 plus 1% to ban porn. [00:49:35] We can do it quickly, and that would be such a benefit. [00:49:38] I mean, when I was converted, banning pornography, AD. [00:49:42] That's a Jew's hardest hit right there. [00:49:45] Because here, wow, nice, nice, spicy. [00:49:48] A lot of unemployment going to be happening. [00:49:50] Go ahead. [00:49:51] Listen, listen, I think about my own conversion, right? [00:49:55] And this is how you get saved. [00:49:59] I heard the gospel and I converted at some point after that. [00:50:03] And at that point, when I heard the gospel, you know, it was very real to me for the first time. [00:50:08] And, you know, that's how you get saved. [00:50:10] We get that. [00:50:11] But I often think about all the preparation that went before that. [00:50:15] Because a lot of the stuff that I was involved in before I was a believer was still stigmatized in the culture. [00:50:23] Like it wasn't like I can feel bad for homosexuals because their sin is celebrated by the culture. [00:50:29] That doesn't, it's hard to prepare a heart that's been celebrated for their sin to be converted. [00:50:35] From it. [00:50:36] You know what I mean? [00:50:37] But for me, you know, I was, I was, you know, in an adulterous affair with some lady. [00:50:41] I was doing drugs. [00:50:42] Like I was a degenerate by anyone's standards, right? [00:50:45] So I was already feeling like I'm a degenerate. [00:50:48] I was hiding it from my friends, the things I was up to, you know, like I was, I felt like I knew that what I was doing was dirty. [00:50:55] So when I heard the gospel, it was like I was prepared for it. [00:50:58] You know what I mean? [00:50:59] I was prepared for it. [00:51:00] I already felt because culturally the things I was doing, you know, I didn't want anyone to know. [00:51:04] And, like, so all of that stuff, like, if you banned pornography today and made it so that the only way you could, you know, indulge in your pornographic thing is at great risk of being, you know, in trouble, or you had to go to the back alleys like it used to be, like, that's how you used to have to do to porn. [00:51:22] You had to go to these seedy little, you know, theaters and stuff or whatever, and you felt like a degenerate, that would be a benefit for the people that still decide to indulge in pornography, right? === Converting Degenerate Families (04:37) === [00:51:33] Right. [00:51:34] Instead of, you know, a society where it's like totally open, you can get it on Twitter. [00:51:38] You know what I mean? [00:51:40] Maybe not so much anymore, but I think you can still probably. [00:51:43] I don't know if he's really completely got rid of it. [00:51:45] There's still a lot of porn bots on Twitter, but he's cleaning it up some. [00:51:48] But yeah, there's a lot of work to do. [00:51:51] But this is exactly right. [00:51:55] You can set things up so that people are primed for conversion. [00:52:02] You know what I mean? [00:52:03] It's not about the government converting you, but again, when you have to get your abortion in the back alley at great risk to yourself, Instead of going to a clean operating table, I really do believe that God uses that kind of stuff to really prime you for conversion. [00:52:23] So when you hear that gospel and you're like, man, I just was in the dark alley yesterday with all these degenerates killing my kid, you actually feel the weight of it a lot more, I think. [00:52:34] And I think this is definitely something that is a hump for some people to get over because I agree, there's a lot of. [00:52:42] Of friends of ours that, the friends of ours, you know, friends of ours, not friends of mine, you know, a lot of friends of ours that would want to do the sort of the bottom up type thing. [00:52:53] And I'm so glad you brought it up because you're a Baptist. [00:52:56] Because that's, you know, and some of the guys that say this are Presbyterian, they really ought to know better. [00:53:02] And most Baptists know better. [00:53:04] You know, they set up their home and they set up their home. [00:53:07] They don't know that their kids are believers or not. [00:53:09] You know, they don't necessarily, you know, call them Christians yet because they're younger, whatever. [00:53:14] Some Baptists are like this. [00:53:16] But, They set up their house in a certain way that they know that there are certain things that are good and holy and righteous. [00:53:24] Even if they're outnumbered, even if it's just mom and dad are regenerate and there's six kids, you know, and they're all under the age of eight, you know, they're totally outnumbered. [00:53:32] As far as they know, not a single one of them is regenerate, you know, and it's like, man, this is like we only make up 25% of the population of this household. [00:53:40] Only 25% is Christian. [00:53:42] And guess what? [00:53:43] The rules of the house are Christian. [00:53:45] You're Christian. [00:53:46] And you do that because you know, you intuitively know. [00:53:50] That setting them up in a situation like that is teaching, it's telling them something, it's helping them, it's going to lead to good results. [00:53:57] I've even seen this work when there's like a grandmother and grandfather that are Christian and then like nobody else in the family is, but you know, they end up, there's a lot of conversions end up happening there because they know when they're doing their degenerate stuff and they, you know, they know that the grandmother's praying for them in her prayer closet every night. [00:54:17] They know when they're in trouble and they've gotten, you know, they feel like that they're under the rope, they go to their grandma and grandpa because. [00:54:23] They understand. [00:54:24] They've set up their whole families in a way to understand that. [00:54:27] So I've seen this. [00:54:28] We've seen this work. [00:54:29] And so the culture, the nation is just a really big family at the end of the day. [00:54:34] And so it works the same way. [00:54:37] Let me say this, too. [00:54:38] And I think that this is true. [00:54:44] Nick Storm, he's on Twitter. [00:54:46] He's a guy on Twitter. [00:54:47] I think he's from Idaho or something or Washington. [00:54:50] And he said this. [00:54:51] He said, He's in one of our super duper secret threads, right? [00:54:56] He may, maybe, oh yeah, maybe. [00:54:57] Which I probably am not allowed to talk about. [00:55:00] Go ahead. [00:55:01] There's no thread. [00:55:03] I'm not sure if he is or not. [00:55:04] I don't participate in those. [00:55:05] I'm in a lot of them, but I don't really. [00:55:07] But Christian nationalism is less about implementing certain laws and more about reinforcing a collective identity of a people and orienting that people to their eternal good. [00:55:17] I think that's really true. [00:55:20] And laws are going to follow, right? [00:55:22] But it's really about having, look, in this nation, whether you're a believer or not, whether you like it or not, we're going to honor what God says we should honor. [00:55:34] And we're going to punish and suppress things that God says we should punish and suppress. [00:55:40] That's what we do in this country. [00:55:42] If you can't see how that will lead to more true believers, they're not all going to be true believers, but it will lead to true believers more so than what we've got currently, then I think that you really have to do some thinking and you really need to do some meditating on that because it's just so obvious. [00:56:07] That would lead to good outcomes. === Softening Atheist Hearts (02:54) === [00:56:10] And one great example to substantiate that, it's been used a lot, but it's still worth using. [00:56:14] So, the notorious atheist, I forget his name, but his right hand man ended up leaving his organization, this atheist organization. [00:56:25] And it was during 2020 and COVID and all that kind of stuff. [00:56:29] And they decided they wanted to get out of their blue state, kind of like a James Lindsay type. [00:56:33] So, they're like, oh, the progressives went. [00:56:35] Who's James Lindsay? [00:56:37] Yes. [00:56:39] Who's that girl? [00:56:39] I've never heard of her. [00:56:41] But, you know, but like, you know, but decided, like, you know, I, you know, it kind of like your classic Bill Maher or classic, you know, the left left me. [00:56:48] They went too far, you know, but not realizing, like, yeah, but your quest to kill God, congratulations. [00:56:54] You know, like, this is on you, bud. [00:56:56] Take some responsibility. [00:56:57] And, you know, but that's not, you just hear, like, oh, I'm a reasonable God hater. [00:57:01] But, anyways, so, you know, so he was one of the, you know, initially that's how it started. [00:57:05] I've reasonably, you know, hated God and devoted my life towards killing him and killing the, you know, traditions and the Christian worldview. [00:57:11] Um, but man, things really got you know, got out of hand here, you know. [00:57:15] And so, during COVID, he left his blue state and all that kind of stuff, moved to a red state, small rural town because he wanted freedom, right? [00:57:21] Typical, you know, classical liberalism, atheist hating God, you know, uh, contradiction, living, walking, breathing contradiction. [00:57:29] So, but he does that, but then it's like him and his wife they had no friends, you know, because they're in a new town, it's a new community, they don't know anybody. [00:57:36] They're like, well, what do you do in this town? [00:57:39] And they asked around, you know, like they go out to eat, and like, where do people go? [00:57:42] What do they do to, um, To make relationships. [00:57:46] And in that town, in that context, everybody said, well, you go to church. [00:57:50] So they started going to a cowboy church, little cowboy church. [00:57:54] And lo and behold, the dude's saved now. [00:57:58] Because it turns out, being in a context of a conservative, surrounded by Christians, more moral people, more traditional people in a small rural town and going to church every Sunday, turns out that even with an ardent atheist, God used that as the means of softening his heart. [00:58:17] And here's part of the problem the guys who think that, well, you know, the conversion is only going to come about, you know, in the most hostile environments possible that are rife with persecution. [00:58:27] Then, look, God can do that. [00:58:30] And He has done that. [00:58:31] And praise God for that. [00:58:33] But what you're discounting, especially if you claim to be within the Reformed tradition, you're discounting one of the major tenets of our Reformed faith, which is that God works through means. [00:58:44] The means of grace are potent, they're powerful. [00:58:49] They work not always, not as a guarantee, not 100% of the time, but very often, if somebody is sitting underneath the faucet on a regular basis, continually, the faucet of God's means of grace, preaching the word, praying the word, === Short-Term Hopefulness in Public Square (04:09) === [00:59:05] the administering of the sacraments, and then taking that into the public square outside of the institution of the church, but in the public square with Christian laws and more Christian morality, and there's not porn on your phone, you have to seek it out and feel like a degenerate as you do. [00:59:20] Then, yeah, that lends towards conversion. [00:59:24] Guarantees it? [00:59:25] No, but it lends towards conversion. [00:59:27] And to think anything other way, I just think as guys think about that a little bit more. [00:59:33] The part of the problem is I think some guys picked aside a little bit too soon before they stopped and thought about it. [00:59:41] But as guys start to do the reading, and we should start a new tweet. [00:59:45] There's the do the reading tweet, and we should start one that does the thinking tweet. [00:59:49] As guys do the thinking and do the reading and do the praying, I think more and more, you just can't get away from it. [00:59:56] You're just going to be like, of course, of course, this is right. [00:59:59] So let me recap real quick. [01:00:01] So these are the three, because that's probably how, you know, I think that's kind of what we covered in the episode. [01:00:05] I think it's really helpful. [01:00:06] But the three main things is one, a general disposition of hopefulness, regardless of eschatology, whether you're historic pre mill or all mill or post mill, you believe that we should work towards a Christian worldview in the public square, that we should work towards that. [01:00:25] And that our work could be successful. [01:00:28] And the one extra thing that I thought of as we were talking that I'll add to that first one is one of the differences, what makes a common denominator that I find across the board with Christian nationalists, whether they're all mill or pre mill or post mill, is that they are hopeful. [01:00:42] They all have a general disposition of hopefulness, but here's the distinction in the short term they're hopeful for the next 50 years, not just the next 5,000 years. [01:00:52] They think that, and none of them are naive, bushy tailed and naive, and they're not dumb. [01:00:57] So, they're not saying in 50 years everything's going to be great. [01:00:59] A lot of them are, you know, every other day you have to talk them off the ledge. [01:01:02] They're black pilling. [01:01:03] They get discouraged. [01:01:04] They're human like anybody else. [01:01:05] But there is a general disposition of short term hopefulness that we can work towards these things in the public square, in government, and God could bring them about in our lifetime or at least our children's lifetime, not just 50,000 years from now. [01:01:21] That would be a difference between some of your old school reconstructionist guys versus the Christian naturalists. [01:01:28] So, short term, Term hopefulness, regardless of eschatology. [01:01:31] Number two, both tables of the law of God being legislated by the civil magistrate, or I'll adopt your disclaimer because I think it's helpful at least an openness, maybe an argument in terms of prudence, when and how, timing, but at least an openness saying eventually, yes, blasphemy should be illegal. [01:01:52] And that has been the Christian tradition, certainly the reformed tradition. [01:01:56] That's well within the bounds of orthodoxy. [01:01:59] And I'm fine with that. [01:02:01] I may say, let's not do that tomorrow with Joe Biden at the helm, but that is a perfectly reasonable position, not just the second table of the law, but the first table of the law. [01:02:13] And then the last one is yes, God could do it bottom up, grassroots revival, mass move of the Holy Spirit, over 50% of the population being regenerate and then just living out their Christian faith in every realm of life, including the public square. [01:02:30] And God could also do it with a strategic minority. [01:02:35] That in God's providence and sovereignty and favor and grace works their way into positions of influence and power and leverages that power for the glory of God because power is not inherently evil. [01:02:50] Power is a tool. [01:02:51] And like any tool, you can take a hammer and build a house, you can take a hammer and bash in a skull. [01:02:57] It's not inherently evil or inherently righteous. [01:03:01] Power is a tool and it can be wielded by Christians in righteous ways. [01:03:06] I think those are the three big things. [01:03:09] Any final thoughts for this episode? [01:03:11] No, I think that those three big things are really good. === Power as a Righteous Tool (02:41) === [01:03:15] And I think it's very easy to see when you kind of talk about these things why this movement or whatever it is, political movement, has legs. [01:03:27] It has legs because these things are pretty basic, they're pretty easy to understand. [01:03:31] And the arguments against these things do more good for us as Christian nationalists than they do for the other side. [01:03:44] It's just been very amazing to me to watch the kinds of things that anti Christian nationalists choose to signal against. [01:03:52] It's, again, it's only funny. [01:03:55] It's funny, dude. [01:03:56] One week, we have a campaign against working out. [01:04:02] And then with the Dusty Devers thing, it wasn't all of them. [01:04:05] So I don't want to throw everybody, but there were some of the anti Christian nationalists that for a week on Twitter, it was, I am for. [01:04:14] Porn. [01:04:15] And I was like, what? [01:04:17] I was like, this, I could not have written this script myself. [01:04:20] Like, this is hilarious. [01:04:22] I mean, at first, it's tragic. [01:04:23] But secondly, if you can get past the tragedy of Christians arguing for the freedom of porn, it is, it's hilarious. [01:04:30] If you can push back the tears, then you'll start to chuckle. [01:04:33] But it was, I mean, and these are conservative. [01:04:35] These aren't just nominal Christians. [01:04:37] These are conservative Christians who I know really do love the Lord, but they just couldn't help themselves because they did, they, you know, they're like, Well, but how would that be enforced? [01:04:46] And I don't like that. [01:04:47] And that would be giving up freedom. [01:04:49] And that's the thing for them, freedom matters, but their definition of freedom is everyone getting to do what they want. [01:04:59] And they forget that's the very definition of freedom that got us to trans and kids. [01:05:04] That's people getting to do what they want. [01:05:05] So, no, you won't get to have every element of your freedom. [01:05:09] You'll have true freedom, but true freedom is within the bounds that God has set for what's righteous and good. [01:05:17] And so, yeah. [01:05:18] Pornography should be banned. [01:05:20] And if it's banned, yes, that would require, in terms of its enforcement, that would require some level of encroachment of what we might now view as freedom, but that would be for the better. [01:05:33] Now, if you have just genuine concerns of like, okay, but the tech that would have to be used in a practical sense to monitor pornography could also be used to spy on it, that's a decent, okay. [01:05:44] So now we're debating how to accomplish that. [01:05:47] But that's not what I saw. [01:05:49] I saw guys just straight up saying, no, don't ban porn. [01:05:52] Christian guys say, as a matter of principle, somehow. [01:05:55] Yeah, I was like, that is silly. === Encroaching Freedom for Ban (00:22) === [01:05:56] So, yeah, absolutely. [01:05:58] No, this is good stuff. [01:05:59] I love it. [01:05:59] I think this is a very good episode for just to kind of clear up like just sort of the basics. [01:06:05] Like, you know, if you don't affirm these things, then you're not a Christian nationalist. [01:06:10] And there's, you know, okay, we can still talk, but like, yeah, that's great stuff, man. [01:06:14] Good stuff. [01:06:15] Cool. [01:06:15] Thanks for coming on the show, AD. [01:06:16] Appreciate it. [01:06:18] Thanks. [01:06:18] Bye.