NXR Podcast - THE INTERVIEW - A Simple Primer For Family Worship with David Reece
Aired: 2024-04-08
Duration: 01:10:09


=== Power and the Wicked Servant (07:32) ===

[00:00:00]  All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:02]  I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
[00:00:05]  And in this episode, we are continuing a multiple part series with Mr. David Reese.
[00:00:10]  He is the CEO of Armored Republic.
[00:00:12]  He's also the senior pastor of Puritan Reformed Church.
[00:00:16]  The two of us have struck up a friendship, and we're doing a multiple part series on the goodness of God's law.
[00:00:23]  We're talking about theonomy, general equity theonomy.
[00:00:25]  We're also talking about sphere sovereignty, talking about the household, talking about the church, and talking about the civil magistrate.
[00:00:32]  And in this particular episode, This is part three.
[00:00:35]  So you have to go back if you want to check out some of the other episodes.
[00:00:37]  This is part three.
[00:00:38]  And we're going to be talking about in this episode hospitality and leading not only your own family, but other families as you welcome them in hospitality, leading them in family worship, catechizing the children, gearing and orienting the hearts of the family and other families as well around the throne of God in our homes, using our homes as outposts for the kingdom of God and for worship.
[00:01:02]  Tune in now.
[00:01:04]  Applying God's word to every aspect of life.
[00:01:07]  This is Theology Applied.
[00:01:15]  All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:01:18]  I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and I'm welcoming back to the show.
[00:01:22]  This is our third episode now, Mr. David Reese.
[00:01:26]  Thanks for joining us.
[00:01:27]  Brother, thanks for having me on.
[00:01:28]  I appreciate it.
[00:01:29]  I'm excited to be able to talk about hospitality and Christian power and the division of labor in the church and some other neat related themes today.
[00:01:37]  So thanks for having me on to discuss these things.
[00:01:39]  Absolutely.
[00:01:40]  So, for those of you who are tuning in, you haven't seen the first two episodes, we're basically doing a series over the course of this year.
[00:01:45]  The goal is to have eight episodes or so throughout the year, every five, six weeks.
[00:01:50]  I'm having David come back on to talk about, well, a lot of things, but part of it is Christians exercising power.
[00:01:57]  The post war consensus, you could call it that.
[00:01:59]  You could call it Boomer Con theology.
[00:02:01]  You could call it a whole bunch of things.
[00:02:03]  Hangover from the Enlightenment or the fruition of the Enlightenment.
[00:02:06]  But Christians, I think, particularly Protestants and evangelicals, even more specifically today, Seem to view power as though it's icky.
[00:02:15]  Oh, that's icky power.
[00:02:16]  Whereas the Bible doesn't teach that.
[00:02:18]  You can use power for wicked and evil purposes, but the righteous should take up that crown in the gutter and wear it on their head proudly and wield the sword for the glory of King Jesus in a righteous manner.
[00:02:30]  So power is not icky.
[00:02:31]  Power is not inherently wrong or necessarily right, but it can be wielded in righteous ways.
[00:02:37]  It must be wielded in righteous ways.
[00:02:39]  And to do otherwise, to simply forsake power in a kind of A voluntary way of shooting yourself in the foot is actually, it's like the servant that buried the talent in the sand.
[00:02:52]  It's actually, and that servant is not called by the master a fearful servant, he's called a wicked servant.
[00:02:59]  And so we're called to exercise power for King Jesus.
[00:03:02]  There's a lot of things that we're talking about, but that's one of the big ones in the household, in the sphere of the state, in the church, in all these different ways.
[00:03:09]  How are we as Christians to be involved in all these things, exercising power in righteous ways for the expansion of Christ's?
[00:03:17]  Kingdom.
[00:03:17]  And so if you want to check out some of the previous episodes, go back and do that.
[00:03:22]  But this is episode three in a multiple part series.
[00:03:25]  And today, David, go ahead and take it away.
[00:03:29]  One thing you touched on briefly there's this idea of the wicked and lazy servant.
[00:03:33]  You talked about how he's not called fearful, but isn't it interesting how fear is actually sin if we're fearing the wrong things?
[00:03:40]  Right.
[00:03:40]  They were called to fear the Lord and we're called to not fear the world or to fear the enemies of the Lord, but trust that he is with us, right?
[00:03:47]  So you see over and over this theme of Don't be afraid or do be courageous.
[00:03:51]  And then this promise of God being with us and the association with this idea of sort of we're supposed to conquer whatever the thing is that he's sending us to deal with, right?
[00:04:00]  So that idea that fear itself is wicked, like you pointed out, I think is a really, really important thing for people to grab hold of.
[00:04:09]  So thanks for laying that out.
[00:04:10]  Yeah, that parable, just one extra thing to add.
[00:04:12]  All right, so this is Charles Spurgeon.
[00:04:13]  So take it with a grain of salt.
[00:04:14]  I love Spurgeon, but he'll take two words of a text, you know.
[00:04:19]  And like sometimes if you're, I'm all for expositional preaching, but sometimes if you're, my text today is two words, the Lord.
[00:04:26]  What does it mean to be Lord?
[00:04:28]  And what does it mean, the Lord?
[00:04:30]  And what it like, and you know, and so anyway, so Spurgeon, you know, he has great, great, great stuff.
[00:04:35]  But I think I mean, I would listen to that sermon from Spurgeon.
[00:04:39]  Yeah, from Spurgeon, exactly.
[00:04:40]  But somebody else, you might be in trouble.
[00:04:42]  So every now and then I'm like, okay, Charles, I don't know how you got there.
[00:04:45]  But most of the time, I think he's right on.
[00:04:47]  And on that particular parable, one of the things he talks about, he says that it's the wicked servant rather than the fearful servant because the master, the master calls him on his bluff.
[00:04:57]  The master knows that he's lying.
[00:04:58]  He says, You know, the guy says, I knew you to be a hard master, you know, reaping where you did not sow.
[00:05:05]  And the master's not agreeing with him.
[00:05:06]  He's not saying, Oh, well, you know, like if you knew me to be that, which I actually am, I objectively am that type of master.
[00:05:12]  He never consents to it.
[00:05:14]  He's not saying, I am that type.
[00:05:15]  Where has God ever reaped that he hasn't sowed?
[00:05:18]  Everything.
[00:05:18]  He owns the cattle on a thousand hills, so he's sown everywhere.
[00:05:22]  There is no harvest where the Lord has not sown, and the Lord hasn't caused the growth.
[00:05:26]  And so he's not consenting to the narrative of this wicked servant and saying, Oh, I am a cruel master.
[00:05:32]  What he's saying in his response when the servant says, Well, I was afraid, you know, because I knew you to be cruel and I knew you to be this and that.
[00:05:39]  He's saying, Well, if you, all right, let's just, I'll concede the argument for a moment.
[00:05:45]  Let's just say that you actually did think that.
[00:05:47]  If you thought that this is how a servant, a truly fearful servant who misjudged my character as being cruel and stingy, this is how he would have behaved.
[00:05:55]  He would have, at bare minimum, invested my wealth with the bankers so that he could give at least a partial return.
[00:06:03]  But what you did, you, This wasn't fear of losing the investment because there were safe investments that could have been made where it wouldn't have been lost and you would have got at least a small return.
[00:06:15]  No, you buried it in the sand to spite me.
[00:06:18]  You didn't want to give me anything.
[00:06:20]  It's not that you're the fearful servant, you are the wicked servant.
[00:06:24]  You weren't afraid of me.
[00:06:25]  You hate me and I hate you.
[00:06:27]  So depart.
[00:06:30]  And you can see that.
[00:06:31]  I mean, there are genuine reasons for Christians today to be afraid.
[00:06:34]  We live in a world that's riddled with sin and we have wicked leaders and But you can, if you're crafty, if you're as innocent as doves and as shrewd as serpents, you can look at a person's behavior and the way that they live in the world and you can tell is this actually fear?
[00:06:52]  Because the fearful person will still do something.
[00:06:54]  They'll hedge their bets, right?
[00:06:56]  They'll take the safer course of action, but they still take some action.
[00:07:00]  But the person who, there's a difference between someone who's risk averse to where they won't take a certain level of risk.
[00:07:10]  That could produce more for the master out of fear, but they're still trying to do something.
[00:07:14]  That's a very different person than the person who won't invest anything of the gifts and the talents and the treasures that the master has given him.
[00:07:21]  That's not a fearful person.
[00:07:22]  That's a person who doesn't want to give a dime in return to the master's investment because they actually hate the master.
[00:07:28]  That's not fearfulness.
[00:07:30]  That's just pure wickedness.

=== Hospitality as a Valuable Opportunity (07:55) ===

[00:07:32]  Right?
[00:07:32]  Not seeking to glorify God as we ought, right?
[00:07:34]  That's the suppressing of that truth and unrighteousness.
[00:07:37]  And so you have this, that's the root sin, right?
[00:07:40]  The root sin of.
[00:07:41]  Of man is this failure to seek, failure to know, failure to understand, failure to then do righteousness coming out of that.
[00:07:48]  And so we are conceived in unbelief and do not glorify God as we ought.
[00:07:55]  We go, we take our ball home, we put the talents in the ground, right?
[00:08:00]  And I think that is a great illustration of that.
[00:08:02]  So thanks for drawing that out.
[00:08:03]  I think, by the way, as we talk about hospitality and jump into it, what we just had here, the Puritans would call this like a holy conference, right?
[00:08:12]  Where you and I are sitting here talking together about, we're conferring about the word of God.
[00:08:18]  People miss out on how much enjoyment they can have in the word of God and drawing out applications as they're sitting around the table with their friends, sharing a beer, sharing a cigar, having a feast, whatever that there's this kind of conversation.
[00:08:32]  But this just happened, right?
[00:08:33]  You just said something, I was like, oh, let me point out this thing.
[00:08:36]  And you were like, well, let me build on that.
[00:08:38]  And so that holy conference is what hospitality should be largely filled with.
[00:08:43]  And besides that, trying to plan to go do stuff together, right?
[00:08:46]  So I want to start off with hospitality.
[00:08:49]  Relates to Christian power in two ways.
[00:08:54]  First, it comes from the power of doing work.
[00:08:57]  So, Paul says, don't steal, or he relates it to the eighth commandment style don't steal any longer, but instead do honest labor with your hands that you might have something to share.
[00:09:09]  And so, you have to first work to generate resources so that you can have hospitality.
[00:09:16]  And then, this idea of having extra stuff makes it so you can be generous, which is giving things you've got away.
[00:09:22]  For other people to be blessed by.
[00:09:23]  And that brings blessing on you by the providence of God.
[00:09:25]  Or hospitality is when you sort of bring people into your blessings and you share in them, right?
[00:09:30]  So you're, you're, you're, so as opposed to generosity might be giving somebody a meal, hospitality is sharing the meal with them, right?
[00:09:36]  And so, and then there's this idea of in the context of hospitality, what you want to do is you want to be fellowshipping, right?
[00:09:43]  And fellowshipping, you know, Christians use the word fellowship and apply it to anything and everything so they can justify doing anything and everything.
[00:09:49]  But, but the reality is that fellowship is work towards a common goal.
[00:09:53]  Right.
[00:09:54]  So this idea that fellowship, we have the shared goal of the glory of God and we want to do work, productive activity that helps to manifest the glory of God more.
[00:10:03]  And so hospitality should largely be itself, you know, conferring about holy things.
[00:10:09]  Or it is this, and so that could be the exchange of things back and forth.
[00:10:13]  It can be this idea of planning to do work together where you're building things out.
[00:10:17]  It can also be a context to get to know people so you can learn about them so that you can do work together.
[00:10:22]  Right.
[00:10:22]  But it's also this sort of, This place where you can have this valuable opportunity to catechize people.
[00:10:28]  And so this bringing of ministry, bringing of the truth to people, helping develop people along.
[00:10:33]  So I want to get to there, but I wanted to get that out there in the beginning because we just had this kind of accidental representation of it.
[00:10:41]  So people can grab hold of that conversation and view that as this is the kind of stuff that you want to see happening in the context of hospitality.
[00:10:47]  Amen.
[00:10:49]  Okay, go ahead.
[00:10:51]  Okay, so as we get into this idea of hospitality, one of the big things that I think we touched on a little bit last time was this idea of The woman is the queen of the home.
[00:11:02]  And one of the ways that her rule is manifest in the home is by her being able to set up this sort of way of displaying beauty in terms of the management of the home, being able to do things like bring out the glory on display, that having well prepared food, having a beautiful arrangement, having the children be able to participate in the hospitality.
[00:11:24]  My kids, for example, if you look at Solomon with the Queen of Sheba, she talks about how not only is his wisdom great, but also his cupbearers and the food and the setting of the table and the way the servants are dressed and all that kind of stuff makes her go, wow, this is beautifully run and well organized.
[00:11:41]  So, running the home well, a mother that's doing well, that cares about her kids being well taken care of, well dressed, being taught to have good manners, a father involved in helping them to understand how to deal with guests honorably, the idea of them participating in the hospitality.
[00:11:58]  I have a couple of my sons who are designated to be cup bearers, where their goal is to make sure that everybody has a cup of liquid that they want to be drinking, right?
[00:12:07]  And at the same time, there's sort of this division of different elements of the work amongst the kids.
[00:12:14]  And there's typically the head cup bearer, and then there's the assistant cup bearer.
[00:12:18]  Do we have enough kids?
[00:12:19]  So you can start to have assistant roles when you have lots of kids.
[00:12:22]  So that idea of that gets to display it, the work of the queen, also of the king of the home.
[00:12:28]  But it's this place where You start to get to display that.
[00:12:32]  So it gives a motive to encourage beauty in the home as the wife is participating in that.
[00:12:40]  The other thing is the place where the hospitality happens becomes a center of power.
[00:12:47]  Where there's hospitality, there's building of relationships, and you have the capacity to influence people.
[00:12:52]  And it doesn't happen just the first time you have somebody over, the second time you have somebody over.
[00:12:56]  It's like once it's become the third time, fourth time, fifth time, sixth time, when somebody's come to your house so many times they can't even remember.
[00:13:05]  When people don't expect to be invited because they're from out of town and they come to your church and you invite them over to have lunch at your house, you know, between the services or whatever, right?
[00:13:15]  That kind of thing where there's sort of this extension of hospitality that's either unexpected because there's, if people are going, well, you know, we don't really know each other or, you know, what are you going to get out of this?
[00:13:24]  I'm just going to disappear.
[00:13:25]  I'm going to be going back to my home.
[00:13:27]  What kind of reward are you going to get?
[00:13:30]  Or the, it becomes regular.
[00:13:31]  So there's sort of a costly sacrificial pouring into other people.
[00:13:35]  And those create bonds of relationship that are lasting.
[00:13:40]  And that hospitality to strangers from other churches can start to build relationships with those other churches in such a way that there's a friendship between those congregations that can develop out of that.
[00:13:51]  And that brings honor to the Lord and helps to encourage unity in the faith.
[00:13:56]  And that's just sort of the natural reciprocity that people have in terms of the desire.
[00:14:02]  And it even occurs amongst pagans.
[00:14:04]  And so when you have hospitality, even unbelievers, if you've welcomed them into your home, The way in which they're willing to listen to you is very different from just the random conversation on the side, as opposed to, why don't you come over?
[00:14:15]  Let's have a meal, let's have a beer, and let's talk and get to know each other.
[00:14:19]  There's a power in relationship that comes with hospitality.
[00:14:24]  And I don't know if you have anything there to add on or any examples that you've seen.
[00:14:28]  I'm sure you've, as a pastor, you've seen many.
[00:14:31]  No, I agree.
[00:14:32]  Well, as a pastor, I kept thinking, so part of it is the person I think immediately feels indebted to you.
[00:14:39]  And you can be manipulative.
[00:14:41]  With that, and I don't think that you should.
[00:14:45]  But there is something to be said.
[00:14:46]  I mean, Jesus talks about when you throw a really good feast, don't invite all the people who are of the chief seats, the people of notoriety, but rather the poor, the lame, the beggar.
[00:15:00]  Invite them, and your reward will be in heaven.
[00:15:04]  Inviting those who can't return the favor, like what you were saying, your reward will be in heaven.
[00:15:09]  When you invite people of notoriety, then there's usually this tit for tat understanding, quid pro quo.
[00:15:16]  That I'm doing this for you, and you're going to do something in return for me.
[00:15:19]  And if the person is of a higher status, then there's usually an expectation that I'm doing this much for you and you're going to do this much for me.

=== Inviting Those Who Cannot Return Favor (14:56) ===

[00:15:28]  You're going to actually multiply the favor.
[00:15:30]  So in reality, I'm doing no favor at all.
[00:15:34]  I'm going to get more out of this than a return.
[00:15:37]  And because there's this sense of having someone in your home, sharing with them a meal, sharing with them a feast, a good meal and drink and these kinds of things, there is a sense in which it does indebted the person.
[00:15:49]  And so, That can be again used in a negative sense of manipulating the person or trying to, you know, tit for tat and just gain earthly favors.
[00:15:57]  But that also can be used in a kingdom sense of opening up the person to hear the gospel message, where the person is far less likely to be rude or condescending or tune you out if they're sitting at your table eating from your bounty.
[00:16:16]  And then you, you know, politely say, Can I share with you a little bit of my faith?
[00:16:21]  You know, they're just, you know, because of that sense of, I guess I owe you at least your five minute gospel pitch because I'm sitting here eating your food.
[00:16:33]  So, absolutely.
[00:16:35]  The danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king.
[00:16:40]  As Americans, we hate the word king.
[00:16:43]  Civilian ownership of body armor is about helping people to have increased power to resist tyrants and criminals.
[00:16:51]  And so, Armored Republic is about helping you to preserve your God given rights.
[00:16:56]  To the honor of the Lord Jesus Christ because he is the King of Kings and he governs kings and he will judge them.
[00:17:04]  This is Armored Republic and in a republic there is no king but Christ.
[00:17:10]  We are free craftsmen and we are honored to be your armor spread of choice.
[00:17:28]  I think that that idea, right?
[00:17:32]  If you try to use hospitality in order to get worldly gain out of people, that's sort of that manipulation, right?
[00:17:37]  And a pastor can do that by thinking about people as like a tithe farm, right?
[00:17:41]  Where you're like, how do I get people in?
[00:17:42]  How do I get them to do the thing?
[00:17:43]  And I'm thinking about how to simply build out the budget or whatever, right?
[00:17:47]  But if instead you're thinking, how can I do this person good?
[00:17:51]  How can I bless them?
[00:17:52]  How can I seek their good and the glory of God?
[00:17:54]  And so you're not making the person the end in themselves.
[00:17:59]  I'm not saying worship the person, right?
[00:18:00]  You're worshiping God.
[00:18:02]  But you're going, I want you to be a knower of God.
[00:18:04]  And so, in desiring to see them to grow in the knowledge of God, you're using the political capital you're building to put it in for that opportunity to be able to express truth to them.
[00:18:16]  And if the Lord uses that to make them wise or to cause them to grow in wisdom, that will make them love you more.
[00:18:22]  And if they are hardened, if they reject it, then they will hate you for it.
[00:18:28]  And you'll use up all that political capital that you've built up.
[00:18:32]  And what will happen is the Lord will then pay you back multiples, right?
[00:18:36]  So there is a, if we have the right attitude, yes, it's a great investment.
[00:18:41]  We expect blessing for it in this life normally and in the next life, absolutely, done in faith for the glory of God.
[00:18:50]  So that idea that hospitality creates power, both in terms of the ways it helps with relationships, but also in the way that it brings blessing from God.
[00:18:59]  And one of the interesting scriptures that we have on that is this idea that if you're hospitable, sometimes you could even, for example, Give hospitality to angels unaware.
[00:19:08]  And that would be purely an example of doing something that brings about a result of a blessing from God and has no sort of like political or social capital being generated with human beings that you're going to deal with and just kind of getting a worldly wise man type of advancement.
[00:19:29]  So we want to appeal to that idea of the blessing that comes from God.
[00:19:33]  And also, there is, of course, the way that things are designed, so there is this desire for reciprocity.
[00:19:40]  We don't want to go into it with the attitude of manipulating people for our own worldly advantage.
[00:19:44]  So, our goal when we go in, if we're trying to work hard to have resources that we can use, we can increase power for the glory of God.
[00:19:56]  And we can do that by pulling people in and kind of building relationships.
[00:20:00]  And the more you do that hospitality well, the more that it has an impact, especially early on.
[00:20:05]  When people know you less, you're trying to avoid stumbling blocks more.
[00:20:12]  And you're trying to do things to help to, it's not so much to try to put on a show to give a fake version of things, but you're trying to be more careful to avoid causing unnecessary offense.
[00:20:22]  And so doing things with extra effort when you're first dealing with people is one of the reasons people avoid hospitality.
[00:20:27]  And they kind of think, oh, it's always going to be this exhausting.
[00:20:30]  It's always going to be this hard.
[00:20:31]  It's like, no, at a certain point, you kind of stop cleaning up the house for a friend when they come over.
[00:20:37]  And your goal is to actually build the kind of relationship where you don't have to clean up the house for the person to come over.
[00:20:44]  And that allows people to see into your life more.
[00:20:46]  And that's one of the reasons why an elder has to be hospitable, is because if he's not hospitable, people aren't going to come over often enough for him to be used to having people over and often enough for them to actually see what life is like regularly in that house.
[00:20:58]  Right.
[00:21:00]  So when we think about this idea of hospitality, if with hospitality we're trying to build a relationship and look for opportunities to do work together, one of the things is people often kind of feel like there's no place for people to teach except for elders.
[00:21:16]  And they feel like there's no place for women to teach.
[00:21:19]  And obviously, the public worship should have teaching by elders as opposed to by other men.
[00:21:25]  That is the design of God for order to have the wisest, most skilled out there teaching to maximize the usefulness for people.
[00:21:33]  But how would you know that a man is fit to be an elder and apt to teach and therefore fit to be an elder apart from him teaching somewhere?
[00:21:41]  Right.
[00:21:42]  And that teaching is principally going to occur in private settings.
[00:21:46]  And that teaching is going to be automatically on display in terms of if people are present in your home when you do family worship.
[00:21:54]  And one of the things I want to really encourage people to do is.
[00:21:57]  is to have people over for dinner, have people over for hospitality and ask them and invite them to stay for family worship.
[00:22:04]  And sometimes in a church community, for example, like in my church, it's totally expected if somebody comes over to your house, everybody expects they're going to stay.
[00:22:12]  If they come for dinner, they're staying for family worship.
[00:22:16]  And so that's sort of like just the expectation that's going to occur there.
[00:22:20]  And at the same time, when you're dealing with people who are not used to that, you can have them over for dinner.
[00:22:27]  And one of the ways that you can That kind of reciprocity piece goes in there.
[00:22:32]  Is you then can tell them about, okay, so normally in the evening we do this, and so we'd love for you to stick around and we can chat a little bit afterwards and maybe have dessert afterwards or whatever.
[00:22:41]  But you make family worship a part of the evening and part of the hospitality.
[00:22:44]  So, I mean, we literally, when I throw a party, like we have a party that we do oftentimes early ish January, and we'll do, we call it Puritan Party, just kind of the joke, you know, name that we have because it's our church, Puritan Reformed Church, and we just had to have people over and we just kind of have a party, we have people hanging out.
[00:23:04]  And we talk about stuff and kind of encouraging friendship between other people from other churches and encourage everybody from the church to be there.
[00:23:10]  And we have a meal and all that kind of stuff.
[00:23:13]  But in the middle of the party, we have family worship.
[00:23:16]  And then it kind of goes back to people going back to talking with each other and all that.
[00:23:20]  But that's the sort of stuff is trying to make it.
[00:23:23]  So it's just like, make family worship normal.
[00:23:26]  So I don't know if we could make that into an acronym, make family worship normal again.
[00:23:29]  How would that?
[00:23:30]  I don't even know.
[00:23:31]  We need some vows, we need some words that start with the vow.
[00:23:34]  But, Dave, you said something that I've been reliably informed.
[00:23:37]  I mean, it shocked me.
[00:23:38]  You said a Puritan party.
[00:23:39]  I've been reliably informed that Puritans don't have parties.
[00:23:42]  We don't.
[00:23:43]  I just lied to you.
[00:23:45]  And I need to repent of that.
[00:23:47]  Puritans don't party.
[00:23:49]  Never.
[00:23:49]  Not unless they want to be under church discipline.
[00:23:51]  I just can't.
[00:23:53]  So, just to be clear, so I don't get kicked out, we, yeah, so the idea that we can get together, enjoy food, have good drinks, have beer, have whatever.
[00:24:05]  And just sort of this idea of getting together and the enjoyment of each other's company and fellowship and talking through stuff.
[00:24:12]  We would encourage that there are regular feasts.
[00:24:15]  What's the difference between a feast and a party, right?
[00:24:18]  The difference between a feast and a party is that a feast, you get more food.
[00:24:21]  So, our goal is to make sure that there's enough food for it to be called a feast.
[00:24:25]  That way, we can't be accused of having parties.
[00:24:26]  There you go.
[00:24:27]  There you go.
[00:24:28]  So, it's better than a party.
[00:24:29]  That's right.
[00:24:30]  One question that I had is you were just sharing about hospitality and the whole household's involvement and utilizing the children.
[00:24:37]  Of course, the wife is going to be heavily involved.
[00:24:39]  But then you briefly mentioned elders, and I was thinking about that.
[00:24:44]  Elders are called to be biblically qualified men.
[00:24:46]  It's an office in the church, it's not open to women, and so it's going to be a uniquely masculine office.
[00:24:52]  But one of those requirements and qualifications for an elder is that he must be hospitable.
[00:24:58]  And a lot of times, I think within Christian circles, we think of hospitality as being primarily exercised by our wives, that it's a uniquely feminine action.
[00:25:11]  Feminine service.
[00:25:12]  And I think it is.
[00:25:13]  I think there's a lot of truth to that.
[00:25:14]  So I'm not saying that's wrong.
[00:25:16]  But the Bible certainly, you know, it doesn't only speak about hospitality in terms of a woman's role.
[00:25:22]  In fact, an elder who must be a man also must be hospitable.
[00:25:28]  And so I was wondering, you know, the thought just occurred to me.
[00:25:30]  And so I don't want to, you know, put you on the spot, but I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit, see if you have any thoughts about this.
[00:25:35]  I don't know if you could even use this phrase, if this would be helpful, but feminine hospitality versus masculine hospitality.
[00:25:45]  Is there such a thing?
[00:25:46]  And what would that distinction be?
[00:25:48]  What would that look like?
[00:25:49]  Masculine hospitality versus feminine hospitality.
[00:25:54]  Yeah, I think that's good.
[00:25:56]  I think the idea that the man, the goal of the queen of the home is going to be to make sure to be a glory to the king of the home.
[00:26:05]  And so she's going to seek to put things out there in such a way as to bring honor to him, to bring credibility to him, and to help him to look like he is the master of the home.
[00:26:16]  And that should be the reality, but she should also be concerned to make sure the reality and the appearance line up.
[00:26:21]  And so if her goal is to honor the husband by making it so that His sort of treasures are on display in a way that's good to bring credibility to him.
[00:26:31]  She's trying to help him to be able to speak.
[00:26:34]  And so that's why hospitality and catechesis are kind of lined up.
[00:26:38]  That the idea of being able to teach people and give people the rudimentary basics of the faith, right, that every man should be able to put on display his ability to teach, not only in sort of a family worship setting, but while you're at the table, can you draw the conversation to a useful place?
[00:26:54]  Can you have holy conference?
[00:26:56]  Can you engage on talking about how can we work together for the honor of God?
[00:26:59]  How can I get to know you and understand you and your giftings?
[00:27:02]  And how can I bless you?
[00:27:03]  And how can I help to draw out and encourage you to be able to do more?
[00:27:07]  And so there's sort of this prophetic teaching, this priestly relationship building, and this kingly, let's get stuff done, that is sort of the masculine element there.
[00:27:16]  And the woman is beautifying that and helping to show that he's the master of the home.
[00:27:22]  So I think that the woman is then also seeking to not cut off her husband or be the one who's dominating that conversation, but she's seeking to bring him on her.
[00:27:33]  And then she's seeking to figure out how to also develop out and build opportunity for the husband in terms of how can she go spend time usefully with the men or with the women and with the children and allow him to be able to focus on some of the men.
[00:27:49]  So there's sort of this classic idea of you have dinner together, there's a conversation that's useful together or whatever.
[00:27:55]  But maybe there's a time where the men kind of break out and the women break out.
[00:27:59]  And then the wife is seeking to have the children with them generally to help to make it so that the men can talk about things at a level that goes beyond the household.
[00:28:08]  Right.
[00:28:09]  And to make it so there's a space where men can talk to each other as men.
[00:28:12]  And so, and then helping to make sure that that's dealt with well.
[00:28:15]  So that, like, you guys have the drinks, you have everything set up.
[00:28:18]  And so there's sort of like setting them up to do that.
[00:28:21]  And so I think that idea, and then, you know, if you're coming back together, helping to make it so there's a graceful merging back in and looking for the direction that the husband wants to take things.
[00:28:32]  And I think a part of this is, you know, families I think that are well run kind of naturally do this, but you go, okay, we got people coming over.
[00:28:39]  And the wife is looking to the husband for, Do you have any goals?
[00:28:42]  Do you have anything you want to make sure we do?
[00:28:44]  The wife might remind of pertinent facts, like, Remember, they have this thing going on.
[00:28:47]  This happened to them.
[00:28:50]  We've been praying for them.
[00:28:51]  So there's sort of like, What are their needs?
[00:28:53]  What are we going to help them with?
[00:28:54]  We're going to bless them with?
[00:28:55]  Do we have any goals?
[00:28:56]  And the goal might just be, We want to get to know them.
[00:28:59]  But you're kind of getting on the same page as you engage in that hospitality together.
[00:29:04]  And the husband and wife are a team.
[00:29:05]  And you incorporate the children into those goals as they get older.
[00:29:08]  And you help them to see this is what it's like to plan.
[00:29:11]  With your wife or with your husband to seek to have useful hospitality.
[00:29:15]  Right, that's really good.
[00:29:16]  Yeah, my wife, I'm just thinking about her the whole time you were talking, like you're listing multiple things.
[00:29:21]  And I was thinking, check, check, check.
[00:29:22]  By the grace of God, like she does all those things really well, incorporating our daughters.
[00:29:26]  You know, we have three daughters, and then our baby is a boy.
[00:29:29]  So we have our youngest as our son.
[00:29:32]  But the three daughters are young five, four, and three years old.
[00:29:36]  No, no, no, six, four, and three years old.
[00:29:39]  Our oldest just turned six recently.
[00:29:42]  But they are very much incorporated and included and invited.
[00:29:46]  Into, you know, on Saturdays, we do, you know, Sabbath meal.
[00:29:49]  We'll invite a family from the church over, and my wife will do that in involving our daughters and decorating, you know, the table and setting everything up and preparing the meal.
[00:30:00]  But then also during, you know, right before people come over, she'll, you know, always give me a helpful reminder if there's anything that she's aware of that I probably should be aware of too, but very likely forgot.
[00:30:11]  You know, she'll remind me, like, remember they're going through this as a family or they have a loved one that just passed away or.
[00:30:18]  He right now is, you know, he's looking for a job.
[00:30:21]  He's in between work, you know, and so make sure to ask him about that.

=== The Wife's Role in Family Catechesis (03:10) ===

[00:30:24]  And, you know, and so, you know, reminders and then during the actual conversation when they're there and they're sitting at our table, even from the seating arrangement, my wife is always very intentional.
[00:30:35]  Like she would never sit at the end of the table with the other wife and have the children in the middle of the table.
[00:30:44]  And she always, it sounds bad, but I think it's good and it glorifies God, but she'll always kind of, Make sure that the children are on one of the ends of the table.
[00:30:53]  She'll put me on another end of the table next to the husband.
[00:30:56]  And then she'll kind of function as a barrier in between me and the children because the daughters, my daughters, are daddy girls and they'll be asking daddy lots of questions and for lots of things throughout the meal.
[00:31:08]  And it'll be very difficult for me to have a genuine conversation of depth with this man.
[00:31:16]  And so my wife kind of plays a go between a little bit between me and the children.
[00:31:20]  If there's something that The children really do need my attention for, then that's brought to my attention.
[00:31:25]  But otherwise, she's the whole time she's engaging the wife and she's certainly exercising hospitality to her and to her children.
[00:31:33]  But she understands that the nature of the relationship is distinct.
[00:31:37]  And so she's, I want a friendship with this woman and I want to have a conversation with her.
[00:31:42]  But the nature of our relationship involves the children.
[00:31:46]  The children are included in that.
[00:31:48]  So we're talking and we're engaging our kids.
[00:31:50]  She's a mom, I'm a mom.
[00:31:51]  This is what it is to be.
[00:31:53]  A mother, and this is what friendship with another mother looks like as we're caring for our children.
[00:31:58]  Whereas dad is going to be talking in a much more intentional light with the husband over there, guiding him and leading him and making decisions for their whole household that will bless, trickle down and bless every member of the family.
[00:32:12]  And so, anyways, I was just thinking about those kinds of things all the way down to the seating arrangement.
[00:32:17]  My wife is very conscious about every element and setting up.
[00:32:22]  And it's not just preferring me, she is honoring me, but it's also.
[00:32:27]  Loving and blessing that family that's going to come.
[00:32:29]  She knows that that family will be better off if the husband gets to spend time with Joel than if Joel is watching the kids and distracted and so engaged with the children that the wife gets to talk to my wife and they get to have a powwow and have a really great time, but the husband doesn't really get to open up with me and I don't really get to share any insight with him.
[00:32:51]  She knows that overall that will be a net loss.
[00:32:54]  The wife may have a great time, she may have a great two and a half hours.
[00:32:58]  And go home thinking, I really like Joel's wife, and we're besties, and we had so much fun.
[00:33:04]  But their household will be better served if I get to spend more intentional time with the husband and guiding and leading him as the head of his home for directions that will bless the whole family.
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=== Advancing the Husband's Agenda Through Questions (05:56) ===

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[00:35:44]  Right.
[00:35:45]  And so that idea of the division of labor in hospitality, where there's a goal to maximally keep free the husband to care for the guests without neglecting the children.
[00:35:57]  So there's sort of going to be like a, okay, so can the wife take care of that?
[00:36:01]  And as your children get older, it's like, can they help to take care of those so that your queen is able to do more as well?
[00:36:07]  Because then, because if you're able to engage with the husband, she's able to engage with the wife, that's even more ministering into their lives, right?
[00:36:14]  Or sometimes you might have a couple's conversation that can occur.
[00:36:17]  And the older children are able to help to take care of things in such a way that you're able to engage with the couple.
[00:36:22]  And so I think that those kind of things where you're thinking about the division of labor, you're thinking about how can you kind of free up the highest authority resource to maximally give that engagement, I think is a way of thinking about it.
[00:36:40]  The other thing about feminine roles in this would also be encouraging women.
[00:36:44]  As a father, I'd really encourage my daughter, I only have one daughter, I have five sons, but my daughter and my wife.
[00:36:52]  I've really encouraged them to think about the Socratic method because you can really help men to think as a woman better if you are asking good questions.
[00:37:03]  And I think that that idea that, you know, my daughter knows theology amazingly well, right?
[00:37:10]  But she is, you know, and she can talk and she goes, you know, I'm comfortable talking for long spurts, you know, when I'm talking with the women or whatever, but how do I do this with the men?
[00:37:19]  And it's like, well, as you're trying to build, you know, godly relationships, godly friendships, as you know, there's men trying to give them an opportunity to have some sort of Engagement in kind of public spaces like, you know, in church afterwards or whatever, where there's an ability for people to consider the prospects of whether to build a closer friendship or not, that kind of thing.
[00:37:35]  You know, how do you do that?
[00:37:36]  And I think encouraging a question asking that's good in general for encouraging women to help them to be able to evaluate suitors and to be able to also, you know, encourage suitors to be able to speak more.
[00:37:49]  And at the same time, your wife, if there's sort of a discussion that's going on and she notices maybe there's a way in which the other man is not accepting the truth that you're saying.
[00:37:59]  She could ask a question, and generally it's going to be more aggressive if she asks it of him, but she might ask it of you, right?
[00:38:07]  And she can kind of, it's kind of like setting up the volleyball, and then you can spike, right?
[00:38:12]  And so, but it could also kind of be if the guy's evading the main point that you're talking to, she might say, Well, what do you, blah, blah, blah.
[00:38:21]  And he might give an answer that makes it easier for you to respond to that, right?
[00:38:25]  And so, in either way, it's a little bit more dangerous to do that second one.
[00:38:30]  It's a lot easier to just say, you know, husband, you know, what do you think of such and such?
[00:38:34]  But there's sort of a way in which you can become very familiar with each other and work in such a way that you can effectively be helpful conversational partners.
[00:38:41]  And so being, asking those questions to help to advance the agenda of the husband is one of the ways that the wife can also be a significant, thoughtful participant in there.
[00:38:50]  And then also, there is just place for the man and the woman both to speak truth, right?
[00:38:56]  We have Priscilla and Aquila as an example speaking to Apollos.
[00:38:59]  And I think that the ability to do communication about truth You know, in just engaging in theology, engaging on the true things of God.
[00:39:08]  And in particular, when the women divide off and what this Titus II activity, where the woman is teaching other women and helping to develop them, encouraging them, teaching them how to love their husbands, how to love their children, and helping to soberize them, is kind of the language that actually exists there that the older women should soberize the younger women.

=== Speaking Truth Together as Man and Woman (02:15) ===

[00:39:31]  And so that kind of activity set, I think, is how women should think about their roles distinctively.
[00:39:37]  And the men really need to think about how do I build an alliance with another home?
[00:39:41]  How do I think about how to engage here?
[00:39:43]  How do we accomplish good work?
[00:39:45]  And so, just let me pause there.
[00:39:47]  Is there anything else you want to deal with before jumping into the catch?
[00:39:49]  No, that's great.
[00:39:50]  I was just thinking of a personal example.
[00:39:52]  I remember going to the Wilson's house in Moscow, Idaho, for a Sabbath dinner.
[00:39:57]  My wife and I got to go visit.
[00:40:00]  But I remember at the time I was sharing with Doug my thoughts about whether or not I should leave California.
[00:40:10]  And we had talked about it some and this and that, but there were certain elements of the conversation that we hadn't talked about.
[00:40:16]  And one element was, you know, what about the church that I would be leaving behind?
[00:40:22]  And Rachel Jankovic, Doug's daughter, youngest daughter, she was sitting there at the table with my wife and other people at the table as well.
[00:40:32]  It wasn't just us, there were multiple families.
[00:40:36]  The Wilsons, you know, all four of the Wilson households, and then a Us in another family.
[00:40:44]  But instead of Rachel, you could, it seemed as though she probably had some thoughts.
[00:40:49]  She's a bright gal.
[00:40:51]  She probably has some opinions, but instead of making a statement, she asked her dad.
[00:40:57]  So she posted as a question to Doug and said, Dad, what do you think about the church that he would be leaving behind?
[00:41:07]  And what's the obligation there?
[00:41:09]  Because Doug had been making a fairly strong case of it wasn't a pros and cons list.
[00:41:14]  It was, yeah, you should leave California.
[00:41:16]  Yeah, well, what are the cons?
[00:41:18]  He was like, You should leave California.
[00:41:21]  That was about it.
[00:41:23]  And so, Rachel didn't give her two cents and say, well, yeah, like adding cons to her father's list that he had chosen to neglect.
[00:41:34]  But instead, she posed it as a question to her father, saying, what do you think about this?
[00:41:39]  And I was glad she asked.
[00:41:41]  I didn't ask.
[00:41:42]  And I was glad that she did because Doug had some really great things to say in regards to that.

=== Friendship Built on Honest Counsel (05:53) ===

[00:41:46]  So I think that's really helpful.
[00:41:48]  There's so many ways.
[00:41:51]  I mean, I think of Mabel, his wife, What's the name of Nabal's wife?
[00:41:56]  I can't remember.
[00:41:57]  Abigail.
[00:41:57]  Abigail, that's right.
[00:41:59]  I mean, she's just, she's a wise woman and she has a deadbeat husband, you know, but, but she's a wise woman.
[00:42:05]  And there's so many ways that a woman can exercise godly, righteous, feminine virtues that she's not, she's not being domineering.
[00:42:14]  She's not being brash.
[00:42:15]  She's not hijacking the conversation or lording over the men in the room.
[00:42:20]  But, and yet at the same time, if she's crafty, and I don't mean that in a deceitful way, but if she's, Exercising righteous craftiness, which is a thing.
[00:42:31]  She could actually be systematically, I mean, guiding the whole night, the whole conversation, the whole meal, I mean, every element, and yet do it in a way that is feminine, that is submissive, that is beautiful and pleasing to the Lord, and yet wise and ensuring that not just is there bounty on the table, but there's bounty in the conversation, that the whole thing is fruitful.
[00:42:59]  Absolutely.
[00:43:00]  And I think that's why, you know, men, you know, your wife, your queen, is your principal counselor of war, right?
[00:43:07]  Like, you need to be, she needs to be your friend, not your marriage is first and foremost a friendship.
[00:43:14]  It's not that it's friendship and nothing else is friendship.
[00:43:16]  No, that's not the case.
[00:43:17]  It's a special type of friendship that includes sexual intimacy and a sharing of children and sharing of an estate that's in common.
[00:43:24]  So it's a closer friendship than other friendships, but it's a friendship.
[00:43:28]  And the friendship is you have a shared understanding of the good and you're, Committed to seeking each other's good.
[00:43:34]  And so you're working together, right?
[00:43:35]  Friendship is about working together.
[00:43:37]  And I stole a line from you, by the way, the other day.
[00:43:39]  I was talking to some of the men at my church.
[00:43:41]  We were doing a kind of thing, and you talked about how men get together, they don't have any work to do.
[00:43:45]  The friendship gets gay real quick.
[00:43:47]  I'm just like, I just stole that.
[00:43:48]  I didn't even cite you.
[00:43:49]  I was just like, I'm just going to say this, and I'm not even going to tell anybody.
[00:43:53]  I tell you what I did.
[00:43:55]  Yep, go for it.
[00:43:55]  It's free for grabs.
[00:43:57]  But I mean, it's so true.
[00:43:59]  And it's just unproductive, right?
[00:44:00]  And that's the main root there, is that the friendship.
[00:44:03]  The friendship is unproductive.
[00:44:06]  And so.
[00:44:07]  Yeah, face to face, you don't even do that with your wife.
[00:44:09]  I mean, that's the point that I was making with your own wife, face to face is not the exhaustive mode of relationship.
[00:44:19]  It's part of it.
[00:44:20]  But if a man, even with a woman that he's married to, is solely, exclusively face to face, then that's just weird.
[00:44:29]  It's erotic.
[00:44:30]  It's overly erotic.
[00:44:31]  It's a cheap form of love.
[00:44:35]  But to do that with another man.
[00:44:38]  Right.
[00:44:38]  Gay, I think, is the right word.
[00:44:40]  Right.
[00:44:41]  Right.
[00:44:42]  I don't have any male friendships that there's not at least some element of mission, shared mission.
[00:44:50]  Right.
[00:44:51]  Right.
[00:44:51]  So, absolutely.
[00:44:52]  So, there's got to be something, there's got to be good work being pursued.
[00:44:54]  There's got to be a good mission together.
[00:44:56]  And so, that idea that even in marriage, right, eroticism is an ornament to marriage.
[00:45:05]  It's not all marriage is, it's not the sexual is entirely there.
[00:45:09]  There's this an ornament.
[00:45:11]  So, the friendship, you men are called to work, your wife is a helper.
[00:45:15]  Right, help her in what?
[00:45:17]  Help her in dominion, help her in work.
[00:45:19]  Right, so the friendship is a friendship sharing in work together, sharing the fruits together.
[00:45:26]  And then there's this idea that, in that, you need to have your wife as your counselor.
[00:45:31]  You talk to her, you make the call, you call the shots, right?
[00:45:34]  You're the decider, uh, you know, bushism right there.
[00:45:37]  And then, and then from there, the idea that you hear her counsel and she's going to help to draw things out.
[00:45:43]  And when she understands, right, even if she disagrees about something, if it's not sin and she just, you know, she salutes and goes, Okay, let's carry out the Mission together, she can then intelligently help to carry out the objective.
[00:45:54]  One of the things that, you know, in the last decade that my wife has really done a lot that's helped me is so often she just quickly like tells me her counsel, tells me where she disagrees.
[00:46:05]  I just say, well, I think I want to do this anyways.
[00:46:06]  And she goes, all right.
[00:46:07]  And she salutes and she goes, okay, I'm going to help to do this.
[00:46:09]  And we move on fast.
[00:46:11]  And so my wife doing that, I had a hard time figuring out in the early part of the marriage, how do I get my wife's counsel and at the same time make it so it's not just an argument between equals?
[00:46:22]  Right.
[00:46:23]  And so I didn't want to give that up.
[00:46:25]  And so I kind of struggled through in the beginning to figure out how do I do that?
[00:46:28]  And it made a lot of strain for her where she was trying to figure out, you know, how can I be invested in arguing with you and also be submissive?
[00:46:36]  And she actually came with that kind of insight of like, well, I just want to, you know, kind of tell you.
[00:46:41]  And then after like, you know, a time or whatever, you just kind of give me a signal and we're done.
[00:46:45]  I'm like, yes.
[00:46:46]  And I couldn't believe I hadn't figured it out.
[00:46:49]  And I was so grateful for her realizing that.
[00:46:51]  But I'm also grateful that I didn't give up on seeking her counsel.
[00:46:55]  Right.
[00:46:56]  So building that.
[00:46:57]  Both would have been a tragedy.
[00:46:58]  Yeah, you're right.
[00:46:59]  Trumpkin, you know, I think, you know, from Prince Caspian.
[00:47:03]  It's like, well, you didn't even believe in Aslan, you know, and like now you, you know, you thought all this was just a bunch of hoopla.
[00:47:09]  And he's like, uh huh.
[00:47:10]  And I still hold to those convictions.
[00:47:12]  I still think, you know, at this current moment, it's hoopla.
[00:47:15]  But you've had my advice and now it's time for orders.
[00:47:18]  I know the difference between giving advice and taking orders.
[00:47:21]  And this is an order from a king.
[00:47:23]  I believe in you.
[00:47:24]  You're standing right in front of me.
[00:47:25]  And I believe in your position and your authority and your office, and you've issued a command.
[00:47:30]  So I gave my advice.
[00:47:32]  I still stand by my advice, but you gave your order.
[00:47:35]  And I know what it is to take an order.
[00:47:38]  So, yes, sir.

=== Encouraging Believers to Lay Out Doctrine (15:43) ===

[00:47:40]  So, that ability, that ability to salute and carry out the orders, I think is a really powerful part for the husband and wife being able to cooperate that way.
[00:47:48]  And so, I would just really encourage husbands to talk about that explicitly that, you know, say to your wife, I need you to be my queen.
[00:47:55]  I need to be able to talk to you.
[00:47:56]  I need to be able to pull you into the conversation.
[00:47:58]  I need your counsel.
[00:47:59]  But I need at the end of the day, when I make a decision, I need you to salute and help me carry it out.
[00:48:03]  If it's sin, I need you to tell me that.
[00:48:05]  We can bring in the elders or whatever if there's something where you think I'm ordering you to do sin.
[00:48:08]  Okay, fine.
[00:48:09]  We'll go through biblical process and all that.
[00:48:10]  Most of the time, that's not going to be the problem.
[00:48:12]  It's just going to be a methodological choice.
[00:48:14]  And so I need you to prioritize methodology, and there's not a sin issue.
[00:48:18]  That's the whole point of the husband's authority, is to control the prioritization and to control the methods used to accomplish lawful ends.
[00:48:25]  And so I think wives understanding that helps them to kind of get it.
[00:48:29]  And I think the queen, the idea of being a queen of the home, Helps understand.
[00:48:33]  It's like, I have authority, I have a position, but you're the king, right?
[00:48:36]  And so that thing I think is helpful for the wife to understand kind of that role.
[00:48:40]  So I want to jump into the catechesis portion here, this idea that when you have hospitality, one of the neat things is, so pastors are always, you give a sermon and you talk and you're like, I've taught on these things and that thing and that thing and all the things.
[00:48:53]  Oh, I've covered all the stuff.
[00:48:54]  All the things have been taught from the pulpit and everybody's got it and it's going to be great.
[00:48:57]  And you talk to people and they don't get the stuff that you've been teaching.
[00:49:00]  You're like, this is, I am the worst.
[00:49:01]  This is the worst.
[00:49:02]  I am the worst.
[00:49:03]  I don't know what I'm doing.
[00:49:04]  I'm considering male modeling.
[00:49:06]  And you're looking for these career changes.
[00:49:10]  And so then you go, you can have a conversation with somebody for like 30 minutes or an hour.
[00:49:14]  And all of a sudden, you're like, they learned all the things I was trying to get them to get.
[00:49:18]  Like, how did that one conversation manage to get all that through?
[00:49:21]  And it's because it draws it together.
[00:49:23]  It helps their attention to be focused in.
[00:49:25]  Hospitality and conversation, holy conference like this, makes it so that you're able to get your mind engaged in a different way.
[00:49:33]  And there's this kind of one-on-one attention where it's like, oh, I think you're missing that right there.
[00:49:38]  And so there's this powerful way that it can kind of draw everything together.
[00:49:41]  And so, but the pastor can't be the only person doing hospitality.
[00:49:45]  All the elders should be doing hospitality and they're all pastors.
[00:49:48]  They're all responsible for teaching and all that.
[00:49:50]  But this tendency to kind of have the guy.
[00:49:53]  And even if it's not just the guy, even if you've got elders, the tendency to make it so the equality of the elders is even if that's done, there's just too much to do.
[00:50:02]  And so everybody who is starting to mature needs to take up the battle and needs to be able to encourage this spiritual warfare to occur in these minor engagements, the private context of the home.
[00:50:17]  Where you can lay down the basics, the foundational doctrines of the faith.
[00:50:22]  And so I think things like the Shorter Catechism would be a thing where, if you study that, that's going to lay out the basics for you.
[00:50:28]  Questions 1 through 38 is going to give you the really key basics there.
[00:50:32]  I mean, you basically got the Solas, Tulip, Trinity, Incarnation, and Basics of Covenant Theology.
[00:50:38]  And if you go through that, and you can lay that out, and you can give them the Solas, Tulip, the Trinity, Incarnation, and the Basics of Covenant Theology, you're giving people the basics of the Reformed Faith, the Reformed Gospel.
[00:50:48]  Right.
[00:50:48]  And that's the true Gospel.
[00:50:49]  And so, if you can have those conversations to help people to be mature in those little things, to be established in those little things, that is so helpful to make the preaching so much more useful for them and help those men to be able to lead their families well.
[00:51:02]  And so, emphasizing those basics, I really want to encourage people to emphasize those basics.
[00:51:07]  And then the idea of going, you know, helping people to think about the law of God and the Ten Commandments and the summary of the law, which is the middle part of the shorter catechism.
[00:51:16]  You get to the end and you have like word, sacrament, prayer.
[00:51:18]  And you're just like, are you engaged in?
[00:51:20]  Family worship?
[00:51:21]  Are you engaged in private worship?
[00:51:23]  Are you guys praying?
[00:51:24]  Do you understand how to pray?
[00:51:26]  And then, like, the importance of church life and conflict resolution is sort of what's captured there in that idea of the sacraments.
[00:51:34]  And so, if you just that little outline right there, that's the shorter catechism.
[00:51:38]  And so, if you're familiar with those things and you can talk about them, you can help to lay down the foundation of doctrine in people's lives in powerful ways in hospitality.
[00:51:49]  And it divides labor up so that the pastors aren't overwhelmed.
[00:51:51]  And it dramatically increases the fruitfulness of their preaching.
[00:51:55]  And if you can help to encourage men to be the pastors of their homes, to do family worship and to lead in that way, to wash their wives in the word, it makes a powerful fighting unit.
[00:52:06]  And pastors can say this all the time, and we should.
[00:52:08]  And oftentimes men will follow our example and follow the lead, and they will listen to the teaching.
[00:52:13]  But sometimes people walk away and they're like, Yeah, sure, you're a pastor, you get paid to do this.
[00:52:19]  And then when they talk to an ordinary guy, And they're like, you're an engineer, or you're like an accountant, or like you work at a factory and you make stuff.
[00:52:27]  Like, and you're like, I do family worship.
[00:52:29]  They're like, you can do that.
[00:52:35]  And so, the power of hospitality, where you say it, you encourage it, and you give the example, the reforming power of that.
[00:52:43]  I've had people come to our church and say, You know, we came to your house and you guys did family worship.
[00:52:47]  And I was like, Wow, that's amazing.
[00:52:48]  That's really cool and whatever.
[00:52:49]  But then I went to this, you know, to Deacon Schaefer's house and they did family worship.
[00:52:53]  And then I went to, you know, this other family's house and they did family worship.
[00:52:57]  And everywhere we got invited, you know, they did family worship as a part of that.
[00:53:01]  And it's like that, that, that I've had people say that to me.
[00:53:04]  And the way that that opens their eyes, that if you could have a community where that kind of thing is encouraged and it's associated with part of the hospitality.
[00:53:11]  So, hospitality itself is rare.
[00:53:14]  Hospitality with family worship is like rare, rare.
[00:53:17]  Like, we're talking like steak tartare rare.
[00:53:19]  Like, this is the kind of thing we're talking about.
[00:53:21]  So, if you can have that happen, if you can have that happen in a church, there's this powerful discipling work that gets done there by that example and by that.
[00:53:31]  And it helps to develop people.
[00:53:33]  And also at the same time, it displays those who are fit for public office because they're hospitable and it shows their ability to teach.
[00:53:39]  And it involves the women and makes them engage.
[00:53:41]  And so, therefore, the women don't feel the need to go try to like steal the reins of power and seek to become pastoresses because of the fact that they're going, I have a ministry.
[00:53:49]  My ministry is in the home and I can teach people there and I can engage with women there.
[00:53:52]  I can encourage children in our homeschooling or in the Christian raising of our children.
[00:53:57]  So, just giving an outlet for godly teaching to occur at all the appropriate levels.
[00:54:01]  Right.
[00:54:02]  That's really good.
[00:54:03]  One practical question that I had as you're gauging, so let's say you are a pastor like you are and like I am.
[00:54:10]  So, if there's a pastor listening to this and he's trying to exercise hospitality as an elder, as he's commanded to do so, and having families from the church in his home, it's his home.
[00:54:22]  So, there's kind of like two elements.
[00:54:24]  One, he has the office of pastor in regards to the church, and there's a deference there.
[00:54:30]  Even though it's not the Lord's day, there's still this sense in which he's the pastor and this is a family in the church, and they're going over to their pastor's house, not just anyone's house, but their pastor's house.
[00:54:39]  And that does mean something.
[00:54:40]  And I think that's good and right.
[00:54:42]  But then, also, even from a household standpoint, they're in his home.
[00:54:46]  So he's the man of that home.
[00:54:47]  So there's both the pastor element and the head of this home.
[00:54:52]  There's two households, but in one home belonging to him.
[00:54:57]  And so it seems as though, practically speaking, the full impetus is on him to lead that evening.
[00:55:04]  We're having a meal.
[00:55:05]  We're now doing family worship.
[00:55:06]  So I think he certainly should initiate.
[00:55:08]  We'd like to, we do family worship in our home, and we would like to invite you to be a part of that.
[00:55:13]  We do this in the evenings after our meal.
[00:55:15]  After dinner, and we usually do something like this.
[00:55:17]  And so, for him to lead in all those ways, I think is totally fine.
[00:55:20]  But if he's simultaneously trying to set an example, right?
[00:55:24]  So, 1 Peter 5, not domineering over those in your charge, but setting an example for the believers.
[00:55:29]  If he's seeking to set an example, but he's also trying to test, he's trying to discern and witness that other man and his potential apt to teach.
[00:55:46]  It's his home, he's pastor, and he needs to set an example.
[00:55:50]  But could he give portions of the liturgy, the family worship, away to that other man, even though it's in his home?
[00:55:58]  And to see, hey, would you perhaps lead this portion of our family worship?
[00:56:05]  What do you think about that?
[00:56:07]  Yeah, I think that that is totally appropriate.
[00:56:10]  And I think that it would be important, generally speaking, for the man to be able to give some precepts out of the word of God.
[00:56:20]  To his own family.
[00:56:21]  I think one of the ways I will do that is I will kind of pick a text, you know, read it, talk about it a bit.
[00:56:28]  And I, before asking, I believe holy conference is distinctively a part of family worship.
[00:56:33]  So, this idea that you discuss the word of God is a part of it.
[00:56:36]  And I really would typically start by asking if the other man has anything he wants to add or any comments or objections or anything he thinks would be good to point out into the text.
[00:56:47]  When I'm at other people's houses, a lot of times as a pastor, people will ask me to lead the worship in that home.
[00:56:54]  What do you say?
[00:56:55]  And I think it's totally appropriate.
[00:56:57]  And I express a willingness to do so, but I also encourage the men.
[00:57:00]  To do it.
[00:57:01]  Yeah.
[00:57:02]  And I will also ask.
[00:57:03]  That's what I do.
[00:57:04]  I'm like, it's your house.
[00:57:06]  It's your house.
[00:57:07]  I'm happy to pray or something, but why don't you lead?
[00:57:09]  And I think they're sometimes intimidated, like, well, what if we don't do it exactly the same way that you do?
[00:57:14]  And I always say, well, that's okay.
[00:57:16]  You don't have to do the exact way that we do.
[00:57:20]  So, yeah, I think this idea of encouraging the men to lead, especially early on, I'm really quick to just kind of go, sure, I'm happy to do that and to help them to do it.
[00:57:32]  And to then try to pass off pieces that would be easy to help to habituate them if they're not used to family worship.
[00:57:39]  So I'd be like, would you mind starting prayer?
[00:57:43]  Would you mind reading the text?
[00:57:46]  So that way they're accustomed to that.
[00:57:47]  And then they're participating, obviously, in the singing portion, right?
[00:57:50]  So if you're literally just praying, reading a text, and then there's discussion about the text, and then there's singing of a psalm and blessing.
[00:57:57]  And then I also would try to encourage if I heard, if I thought there was some difficulty with them, for example, and them not necessarily feeling they could bless their home or whatever.
[00:58:06]  I would encourage them to bless their own home.
[00:58:09]  And so I would sort of be there as training wheels to some extent and try to do that.
[00:58:15]  I have a couple people who say the price of admission is that I lead the family worship.
[00:58:18]  And so I go, that's fine.
[00:58:22]  I'll take the meal and I'm happy to spend time with you guys.
[00:58:24]  And I know they're doing family worship anyways without me.
[00:58:27]  But so, you know, you try to be flexible with those things.
[00:58:29]  Those are some of the principles I try to apply to help in a pastoral way with getting men to be encouraged to leave their own homes.
[00:58:34]  Great.
[00:58:35]  Any other thoughts on?
[00:58:36]  We've talked about hospitality, we've talked about catechism.
[00:58:39]  Keyses, any other thoughts on this topic for today?
[00:58:43]  I think we've covered the main things, and I think I just want to reiterate that little list of this idea that the Shorter Catechism does a fantastic job of laying out the basics, the rudiments of the faith.
[00:58:55]  And I think it's really important that we feel like we are.
[00:58:59]  I want to really encourage believers to feel like they're competent to lay out the basic doctrines of the faith.
[00:59:05]  And I think that list, hopefully, is a useful thing for people to kind of think about what are those key things.
[00:59:11]  I think the five solas.
[00:59:13]  Tulip, the doctrine of the Trinity, the incarnation, and then the very basics of covenant theology.
[00:59:19]  There's the covenant of works with Adam as a federal head, and then the covenant of grace with Christ as a federal head.
[00:59:25]  To realize that those things, if you can talk about it, you can really talk about the gospel in a way that's really helpful to get people to get a sense of what the gospel is according to the scriptures, being able to talk about those different pieces.
[00:59:37]  You don't have to go through all of it in one sitting or whatever, but those are little nuggets that you can go, like, this is enough to talk about for a dinner to pick in one of those things.
[00:59:46]  And if you're thinking, if you're kind of trying to track in your head, how do you help people along?
[00:59:52]  Kind of having a sense of, like, I remember pretty well just like kind of where people are theologically.
[00:59:58]  And I kind of think about how can I help to pull them along.
[01:00:01]  And I think that that's one of the ways of being priestly is to know the person, to know where they are, and to help to lift them up.
[01:00:11]  And so I think thinking about those doctrines are sort of things that you're trying to help check people on to push people along and the basics of the law.
[01:00:19]  The idea of the basics of conflict resolution in the sacraments, the use of the word of God with the types of different places for worship, and then prayer.
[01:00:28]  And so, those things, you can do so much to build a person up.
[01:00:33]  And so many believers have sufficient knowledge to teach those things.
[01:00:39]  And so, to talk about those things in the home, to look for opportunity for those.
[01:00:44]  And when people are early on in their walk with the Lord, they're going to feel insecure about those things.
[01:00:50]  They're actually not going to have a real clear sense of those things.
[01:00:53]  And when they're more mature, those are really great springboards.
[01:00:55]  And so they're also easy test.
[01:00:57]  You can pick any of those things as a test case and go, what do you think about this?
[01:01:01]  And if they're mature in the faith, they're going to grab hold of it and go, yes, let's talk theology.
[01:01:06]  And they're going to grab it and you can have a great conversation.
[01:01:09]  And if they're immature in the faith, they might go, they're either believers and will want to learn more and they'll go, tell me about that.
[01:01:16]  Or they're going to go, eh, I don't want to talk about this.
[01:01:19]  And they don't want to talk about it.
[01:01:20]  That gives you a sense of sort of there's a real problem there.
[01:01:24]  And you could bring that, for example, to pastoral attention.
[01:01:28]  Right.
[01:01:28]  That's really helpful.
[01:01:30]  One more practical thing I wanted to add for the listener is when it comes to choosing a catechism, I understand that there are more modern catechisms that have been written, but one thing that helps so much when you have a church community, when we started doing catechesis and leading family worship with our oldest, we started, and we should have started before we had any children at all.
[01:01:52]  My wife and I, I mean, we would pray together, and there was some semblance of shared, Moments of piety, private practices of piety that weren't just individual but shared in our marriage.
[01:02:04]  But we really got structured and serious when our firstborn child came along, which, for the record, I think is too late.
[01:02:11]  But by God's grace, better late than never.
[01:02:13]  So we started a little bit before our firstborn turned one year old.
[01:02:19]  And at first, it was a little bit more creative on the catechism portion, not creative like heresy creative.
[01:02:28]  But what I want to add here at the end, just a practical note, is I don't think creativity is your friend.
[01:02:34]  And the reason why is because now that our children are reaching school age, you know, so, and there's, and the church, you know, here in Texas has grown and there's a hundred children in our church.
[01:02:46]  You know, we're about 200 people and half of them are kids.
[01:02:51]  And so now that there's, you know, children in the church and then our daughter goes, you know, with some of those children to school, it's not helpful when every household has their own catechism.
[01:03:02]  It's just, It's not helpful.
[01:03:04]  You know, so all that being said, I understand that there are some modern catechisms and there's some variation, and, you know, and that's, you know, some of them may actually be really good.
[01:03:14]  But if you're Presbyterian, the Westminster is the best.
[01:03:17]  It just objectively is the best.
[01:03:19]  So just settle with it.
[01:03:21]  Don't try to reinvent the wheel, and you should go with that.

=== Choosing One Unified Church Catechism (06:45) ===

[01:03:23]  And if you're more on the 1689 side of the aisle, then I would strongly recommend Keach's catechism.
[01:03:31]  I think it's the best that there is to offer.
[01:03:34]  On that side of the aisle.
[01:03:35]  So, depending where you're at on that issue of baptism, if you are a Reformed Christian, I think Westminster or Keeches, New City Catechism is, I don't think it's particularly helpful.
[01:03:46]  I think it's soft on a few things, but beyond just that, where I think it's softer, where it should be more robust, if you do New City Catechism, somebody else is going to do this other catechism, and somebody else is going to do this other.
[01:03:59]  And then when you're actually having these holy conference moments in people's homes and hospitality, You don't want to just have that family.
[01:04:06]  You want that family to participate and for their children to participate.
[01:04:09]  You don't want them to come share a meal and then say, okay, now sit back and spectate and watch my family worship.
[01:04:16]  No, it's you want to invite them to worship with your family, and that involves the husband, the wife, and the children.
[01:04:22]  And if their children actually are being catechized by their father, but in a whole other catechism, and so then you're asking questions, and it's just I mean, it is so helpful when a whole congregation is on the same page with, you know, and your best bet I mean, just the laws of average I mean, it is your best bet theologically, just objectively, but also just in terms of laws of average, you know, like standing the best chance of.
[01:04:49]  Uh, you're doing a catechism, and the highest likelihood that this other family is going to be doing the same one.
[01:04:53]  Well, then, C.A.
[01:04:55]  That your best bet theologically and also just with the likelihood of somebody else doing the same catechism is Westminster, if you're Presbyterian, and Keech's catechism if you're 1689.
[01:05:08]  So, I just thought that's worth adding in there because we're talking about catechism and stuff, but just practically, what catechism?
[01:05:14]  I there's a lot of options, but I think those are the best.
[01:05:16]  Do you feel free to disagree, but do you have any?
[01:05:19]  Thoughts on that?
[01:05:21]  No, and I think that I agree with you.
[01:05:24]  And I think that the idea of a covenanted uniformity, where there's an agreement on the church has adopted a standard of doctrine.
[01:05:31]  And so it would be weird if your church has adopted a standard of doctrine and you say, this is what we're going to teach and this is what we're committed to and we think this is the doctrine that's biblical, to then not use those standards, but to say, you know what, we think that the confessional commitment of our church is not good and not sufficient and we're going to pick something else.
[01:05:51]  And you go, well, why don't you go to a church that holds to that confession?
[01:05:55]  Exactly.
[01:05:56]  Right, exactly.
[01:05:57]  Or, you know, on the other side, you know, for the pastors to say, we think this is best, but feel free to do something less than best.
[01:06:04]  You know, like, you know, like to, you know, feel free to do something that's, you know, moderately good.
[01:06:10]  You know, like that is just, if you really believe that's the best, then again, you're not necessarily commanding this, but you are, you know, you can command that the father should be leading their children in family worship.
[01:06:24]  I'm of the persuasion that you cannot command, you must use these catechism questions.
[01:06:28]  You can command, you must be teaching them, catechizing them, and it must be sound, true doctrine.
[01:06:33]  You can command that as a pastor with the other men of the church.
[01:06:37]  You can't necessarily command, it must be this catechism, these questions.
[01:06:44]  But I think you can strongly suggest and say, listen, you pick this church.
[01:06:52]  I'm assuming that's because you think that we're teaching sound doctrine.
[01:06:55]  This is the doctrine that this church teaches.
[01:06:59]  To choose anything else is not different, it's inferior.
[01:07:03]  It's not just, oh, well, we just do something different.
[01:07:06]  No, you do something worse in your family worship.
[01:07:09]  You don't do something different, you do something worse.
[01:07:11]  Absolutely.
[01:07:11]  And then you're going to say, look, this is the kind of doctrine we're going to be using as we think about things like admission to the Lord's table.
[01:07:17]  This is the doctrine we're going to be using for looking at people who become participants in public office who are nominees.
[01:07:26]  So it's like, train your sons to know the doctrine for the church that they're being raised in, help them to be fit in their year.
[01:07:32]  For office, right, as opposed to something else.
[01:07:36]  And if your church is teaching inferior doctrine, like find a church that's teaching better doctrine.
[01:07:41]  And so, yeah, absolutely.
[01:07:43]  And I also think this fits into the overall theme.
[01:07:45]  This is a very important point.
[01:07:46]  So I really am glad you brought it up right here at the end, which is the division of labor between the households and the church and the public officers of the church is not assisted if you're not working on the same plan.
[01:07:56]  Right.
[01:07:57]  If you're trying to teach people according to a different system of doctrine than what's being taught.
[01:08:04]  Output transcript Out of the scriptures and has been being taught in your church, then you're not going to be helping.
[01:08:09]  And so, if you want to be able to catechize the catechism of the church, if it's biblical, great, teach it and use it to then help to develop people and get them fit for being able to do more in the church.
[01:08:25]  And so, that idea, it kind of blows my mind that I didn't even think about the reality that you would have disagreement inside of the same church about which.
[01:08:34]  Which catechism to use, but no, that's exactly right.
[01:08:37]  You're exactly right.
[01:08:37]  And that's a very practical point.
[01:08:39]  So thank you for bringing that up.
[01:08:40]  Yeah, you're welcome.
[01:08:41]  Any final thoughts?
[01:08:43]  No, I'm really thankful for you having me on here.
[01:08:45]  And I'm excited that we get to talk about these things.
[01:08:47]  And I hope that the way that there's a connection to catechesis and to hospitality, to Christian power, how that concentrates power, builds up the skill set of the family, helps to empower other families to decentralize power.
[01:09:03]  And hospitality also being done by the members of the church.
[01:09:06]  Helps is one of the ways that you decentralize power away from the pastorate.
[01:09:10]  Because if the pastor is the only one being hospitable, and if the pastor is malicious or anything like that, the way that they can be a gossip factory and can kind of control the social things, you can have weird social engineering that's going on.
[01:09:22]  And if you have hospitality, there's sort of this decentralized network of connections that helps to make it so that the homes all have a certain element of the power there.
[01:09:30]  And my point is not to make life difficult for pastors, but my point is to make life difficult for bad pastors.
[01:09:36]  Good pastors to be supported by strong communities that are able to interact and deal with each other's needs to minister to each other.
[01:09:43]  I can't believe this.
[01:09:43]  I forgot to say this hospitality is how you do the recon work of finding the needs to minister, right?
[01:09:48]  That's how you know you can help each other.
[01:09:50]  And it's the context for it.
[01:09:51]  So, hospitality is reconnaissance for how to bless.
[01:09:54]  And so, I can't believe I forgot to mention that.
[01:09:57]  But those are some of those key things.
[01:09:58]  And that's how that increases the power and decentralization, which ultimately increases the power in total of the Christian church and makes Christianity a more powerful force in the land.
[01:10:07]  Amen.
[01:10:08]  Thanks for coming on the show.