NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Women’s Ministry Done Properly | Patriarchy Vs. Complementarianism w Rachel Jankovic Aired: 2023-09-12 Duration: 01:04:46 === Seven Mandates vs Fellowship (15:14) === [00:00:05] Join Douglas Wilson, Dr. Joseph Boot, Brian Sauvay, Eric Kahn, and myself on March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for our 2024 conference. [00:00:15] It's called Blueprints for Christendom 2.0. [00:00:19] Go and visit RightResponseConference.com to register today. [00:00:23] We hope to see you at the conference in March. [00:00:32] Women's Ministry Biblical Patriarchy or Complementarianism? [00:00:37] In today's episode of Theology Applied, I'm welcoming to the show Rachel Jankovic. [00:00:41] She's the daughter of Douglas Wilson in Moscow, Idaho, at Christ Church. [00:00:46] We talk about women's ministry in very practical terms. [00:00:50] What does Rachel and her sister Becca and Nancy Wilson, what do the gals do at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho, in practical terms for women's ministry? [00:01:00] They hold to the biblical patriarchy view. [00:01:02] So, what does that look like in practice? [00:01:05] Tune in now. [00:01:06] Applying God's word to every aspect of life. [00:01:09] This is Theology Applied. [00:01:16] All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. [00:01:19] I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries. [00:01:21] And in this episode, I'm very privileged to welcome back to the show. [00:01:25] I think it's been probably about two years since the last time we had this guest, but we have Rachel Jankovic back on the show. [00:01:33] Rachel, thanks for coming. [00:01:35] Thanks for having me. [00:01:36] Absolutely. [00:01:37] Well, we talked a little bit offline. [00:01:38] Before we started recording and kind of framing up some ideas for the show this evening. [00:01:42] But basically, what I'd love to talk about with you is that my wife is a big fan. [00:01:47] She said, make sure to give me a shout out to Rachel. [00:01:51] Let her know that. [00:01:52] So, my wife, Megan, she loves, you know, we got to come to one of your Sabbath dinners a couple of years ago and she's followed your ministry intensely and your mom and your sister. [00:02:01] And she's benefited so much. [00:02:03] And not just her, but multiple women in our church. [00:02:05] And one of the things that I really like as a husband with my wife following your ministry is that your ministry is always. [00:02:13] Practically geared towards women. [00:02:14] And it's not just like you can do an episode of 45 minutes talking about a theology of sourdough. [00:02:19] God bless you. [00:02:20] That's great. [00:02:21] But you also, it's not just a theology of sourdough, it's a theology of the whole scripture, but then applied to the particular domestic feminine role of a wife, a mother, those kinds of things. [00:02:33] And I've noticed that in the reformed world, even in the complementarian card carrying world, there are women who, God bless them, they would not dare teach or exercise authority in a Public context over a man. [00:02:47] So it's women's only context. [00:02:50] But in that women's only context, the actual content of the ministry doesn't necessarily have anything to do with women. [00:02:59] What are your thoughts about that? [00:03:03] I would say, I think, okay, I think that the best example, I have a friend who struggled for many years with just kind of crippling anxiety about things. [00:03:12] And she realized years into this that what she was doing was reciting Bible verses. [00:03:18] About worry to herself, you know, like she was reciting them, but she realized that she was not obeying them. [00:03:25] She was just saying to herself over and over, you know, do this or, you know, cast your cares on him or be anxious for nothing. [00:03:36] Or she was saying, be anxious for nothing, but in everything, you know, with prayer and supplication, let your requests be made known to God. [00:03:43] But she was not actually with prayer and supplication letting her requests be made known to God. [00:03:48] So it was a sudden surprise of like, it's actually different. [00:03:53] The verse and doing what it says are different things. [00:03:58] And I think Titus 2 is really a big one in this way, which is it's often quoted for women, but it is often like a sentence that people like to diagram rather than do. [00:04:13] They like to say, these are the things that, you know, these are the seven mandates of Titus 2. [00:04:19] And this is this. [00:04:20] And here's a chart of all the things. [00:04:23] And here's this. [00:04:23] But they would never want to be caught talking shop about actual domestic. [00:04:30] Work actually encouraging someone in something that seems to them it's kind of, I don't know what it is some kind of a hyper pious hangover from somewhere that like the world is not spiritual, right? [00:04:43] So, if you were actually just talking about pie crust, you've somehow lost the plot and you're not being a real Christian right now. [00:04:52] If you're getting into that, I'm not, honestly, I'm not sure where all the influences come from in that, but for a large swath of the Christian world. [00:05:02] Actually, acting like those women that Titus 2 talks about would be radically uncomfortable. [00:05:08] Like that would be a really awkward thing. [00:05:12] Whereas affirming the verse, affirming it is that's their comfort zone. [00:05:19] Being like, yes, amen. [00:05:22] These are the mandates, these are the statements. [00:05:24] And I just think this is not unique to women. [00:05:27] People everywhere are not obeying scripture, they're just saying it. [00:05:33] But it stands out with women, I think. [00:05:38] It's something you can really see, probably because of feminism, because of things that are happening culturally and the general lack of respect for women's work, sort of, in the home. [00:05:49] It just is escalated by this in the church, also. [00:05:53] I'm actually a little bit surprised, pleasantly surprised, that you, as you're referencing certain women that would take these seven mandates listed in Titus chapter 2 and tip the hat, give them a salute, but not practice them. [00:06:07] They would maybe teach them or outline them or do a word study. [00:06:11] But wouldn't do them. [00:06:12] That to me is actually a little bit pleasantly surprising because that's a step beyond a lot of what I've seen. [00:06:18] A lot of what I've seen is that there are a lot of complementarian women that would not even get to the seven mandates. [00:06:27] They would stop at older women, train younger women in that which is good. [00:06:31] And then they would stop, close their Bible, and then the good would become an all encompassing, universal, abstract good that could be whatever you want to teach. [00:06:40] And oh, yeah, sure. [00:06:41] You see what I'm saying? [00:06:42] Have you encountered that at all? [00:06:45] Yeah, but I don't think that those are the people that would stick around when I was talking. [00:06:51] Yeah, sure. [00:06:53] So I think that that is probably I have, you know, those are not the people who are writing me questions. [00:07:01] Right. [00:07:01] That's what I'm saying. [00:07:03] Fair enough. [00:07:03] Fair enough. [00:07:05] I would really hear from people who are far more like for the first time in their life going to try to honor God by learning to bake a cookie or like this is. [00:07:16] That it's this wild, thrilling sort of thing. [00:07:19] I'm going totally rogue, doing something that I never imagined would overlap with my faith in any way. [00:07:28] And I will say so that that's where that's probably where I receive the most background information. [00:07:38] You know, the most where you see a trajectory and a story of someone's life from all over the place, but not, but. [00:07:47] I think that that's probably our sweet spot. [00:07:49] Those are the people that we're encouraging the most. [00:07:52] Those are the people that we hear the most from. [00:07:55] And I would think that a pastor is far more likely to be hearing from the frustrated men who are married to the women who will never. [00:08:06] But that's not my audience. [00:08:08] Right. [00:08:09] Totally get that. [00:08:11] Right. [00:08:11] Yeah. [00:08:11] I think so. [00:08:11] I think part of it is the role that, you know, that I, yes, I am a pastor. [00:08:15] And then also part of it is just that by God's grace, you know, you guys in Moscow and the Wilson crew, you've been at this for a long time. [00:08:23] And so I think there are some new voices. [00:08:26] In the biblical manhood, biblical womanhood sphere, and I would be one of them, I think, by God's grace. [00:08:34] I remember kind of making the shift from a soft complementarianism to more of a biblical patriarchy in 2019, preaching through 1 Timothy, coming to 1 Timothy 2, verses 9 through 15. [00:08:49] And instead of speeding through, I slowed down and I ended up extending that particular text into four weeks. [00:08:56] And I lost 40 adults in the church, about a third of the church when I was done. [00:09:00] But that was, you know, my point in saying that is it's been about four years, and four years is significantly shorter than 40. [00:09:07] And, you know, with your dad and having a faithful presence and being consistent for a very long time, at this point, some of the people I'm encountering probably have written off the Wilsons a long time ago. [00:09:19] So that may be part of what's going on, you know. [00:09:22] But all that being said, what does Christchurch do, you know, and it's not just Christchurch at this point, you know, but like King's Cross or, you know, all these, you know, the Christchurch world. [00:09:33] What do you guys do when it comes to women's ministry? [00:09:36] I'm sure a lot of it's just organic, older women actually training younger women in this domestic, feminine, godly role in the home. [00:09:42] But is there any kind of organized, formal? [00:09:45] Because my wife does, she'll participate with your workshops. [00:09:48] There's a lot of things that I've, you know, you've done from afar. [00:09:52] But on the ground, does Christ Church have like some big women's ministry or that's formal or what do you do? [00:09:59] I would say yes and no both. [00:10:01] We don't call it a women's ministry, there is a ladies' fellowship. [00:10:07] A ladies' fellowship committee, I guess, that is two elders' wives, three now elders' wives, and a deacon's wife. [00:10:16] So it's just a small committee. [00:10:20] But most of everything that we do revolves around the hospitality, I would say, and the Bible reading challenge. [00:10:29] And we do try, we have so many new people here. [00:10:32] We do try occasionally different things that would amount to kind of like a small, like a Bible study, essentially, where we might do a book forum where it's like, Listen to the book and we'll have a discussion, you know, whatever. [00:10:46] And maybe fellowship opportunities. [00:10:48] But far and away, the biggest things that we do in the year, we do the block party at Grace Agenda, which is just a huge hospitality dinner for 3,500 people or however many came. [00:11:00] But you guys do tri tip instead of brisket. [00:11:03] Is that right? [00:11:04] I've been reliably informed that you do tri tip and not brisket. [00:11:07] We do tri tip instead of brisket. [00:11:10] That's true. [00:11:11] So it sounds like you're doing everything right except for that. [00:11:13] But everything else sounds good. [00:11:15] Well, we do the tri tip this year. [00:11:19] Some of it is smoked tri tip, which I suppose, I don't know, I suppose you would smoke brisket, but the Santa Maria grill style is not a low and slow grill style. [00:11:29] So it is conducive to tri tip. [00:11:33] Whereas brisket would not be the thing you'd want to do on that. [00:11:37] Gotcha. [00:11:38] But I've seen the pictures from afar. [00:11:41] It's amazing. [00:11:42] The Grace Agenda big block, but shutting down the whole thing, it's incredible. [00:11:45] Yeah. [00:11:46] Yeah, it's really fun. [00:11:47] So, the our we do the Bible reading challenge is something that is our um technically are under or started as a women's ministry in our church, and it that started as our goal was like, we really can't, we have so many fruitful women that there is no way we can throw daytime gatherings and watch your children for you because it is so many children. [00:12:14] Um, and it just was like, you know, we need to do things. [00:12:18] That encourages women and equips women and are teaching women, but are teaching them the. [00:12:25] I'm going to cup circle back to that, but I'll say we were like, we want to be able to teach them, encourage them, equip them from their own homes while they're doing their own work. [00:12:34] Like, we're not trying to give you a break from your children so that you can be encouraged. [00:12:40] We're wanting to actually equip you for the work. [00:12:43] Not that I mind someone having their child babysat for something, but it was just recognizing that this is actually not our responsibility to try to. [00:12:52] Care for everyone's children while we give them a nice coffee or whatever. [00:12:57] But I want to circle back around to the Bible Reading Challenge is reading your Bible. [00:13:01] And the thing that we emphasize is that we're not teaching the Bible. [00:13:08] We are teaching a love of the Bible. [00:13:10] We're trying to teach people the practical how do you get from where you are with no Bible reading habits to a woman of the word? [00:13:18] And how can we encourage each other in that way? [00:13:20] And that way, I would say it is so consistent with Titus 2. [00:13:25] Teaching them good things, which is instead of us doing a let me exposit the word for you, let me show you what the word is telling you right now, we are trying to teach that you should love the word. [00:13:39] And this is what it looks like to love the word. [00:13:41] And this is how, weirdly, this is the Bible reading challenge has been probably the most shocking thing that we tell women is that you can and should read the Bible in your regular life, like when your kids are around, when the house is crazy, when there's noise in the background. [00:14:00] And stop thinking that you need this other solitary spiritual moment. [00:14:04] And that's the only way you can read your Bible. [00:14:07] So I would say that's very consistent with it. [00:14:10] Like, we want to be very practical. [00:14:12] We're not trying to be like, I'm going to walk you through my view on this. [00:14:17] Finally, a coffee company that doesn't hate you and your beliefs. [00:14:21] Today's sponsor, Squirrely Joe's Coffee, is a thoroughly Christian company that ships seriously good coffee straight to your front door. [00:14:30] Owned and operated by Joe Morris and his family out of Olney, Illinois. 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[00:15:27] There's also a nice marbling with each slice, so it's kind of like having a preserved New York strip. [00:15:32] Farmer Bill's provides four fantastic flavors. [00:15:35] You've got original. [00:15:36] Spicy chili, smokehouse, and bison. [00:15:39] And all you got to do is go to their website to order. [00:15:42] That's farmerbillsprovisions.com. [00:15:45] The owner of this company is a post millennial reformed Christian who loves our show. [00:15:50] Support the parallel Christian economy again by going to farmerbillsprovisions.com. [00:15:57] And I imagine that with the Bible reading challenge, part of what you're providing also is just that sense of community and accountability. [00:16:04] You know, that a bunch of women, not just in isolation, reading the Bible as their two year old is having a fit, you know, and maybe you put the Bible down for a moment, but. [00:16:15] For the fit, but not just women in isolation, trying to be disciplined and reading the scripture. [00:16:23] But I feel like one of the big advantages of, because everybody's got a Bible reading plan, I remember when I first saw that, just to speak frankly, I thought only the Wilsons could get some kind of original credit for a Bible reading plan. [00:16:40] How is this special? [00:16:45] Where we actually had people warning people to not do it. [00:16:48] What? [00:16:48] Are you serious? [00:16:50] Are you serious? [00:16:52] Why? [00:16:53] Careful, ladies. [00:16:54] Careful. [00:16:55] These people. [00:16:56] It was just so funny. [00:16:57] Like, I'm sorry. [00:16:59] Okay. [00:16:59] I don't care if it was a Mormon plan that tells you what to read in your Bible. [00:17:03] You can follow it. [00:17:05] I take it back. [00:17:06] I thought, because I've only heard the positive things of like, man, Christ Church, you know, they do the Bible reading challenge. [00:17:13] And that's so awesome. [00:17:14] I'm like, Okay, um, okay, read the Bible. [00:17:19] There's our covenant Bible church, Bible reading, like, but any, but my point is, it took off for a reason. [00:17:25] You know, I say that all tongue in cheek. [00:17:27] It took off for a reason. [00:17:27] I think part of it is because, uh, not because it's a two hour thing, like what you said, it's not a two hour thing where we're going to watch the kids and you're going to have a coffee and you're going to have, you know, a charcuterie board and read the Bible and exposit it for two hours, but it's just the community of knowing if I don't read today, sure, I just hop back on the next day, but also, I I'm doing this with other people, and we're discussing it together, and we're keeping each other accountable. [00:17:53] And people need that because so many of our Bible reading habits are that, like what you're describing, that we literally go into a closet and it's this very quiet, personal, spiritual moment instead of, no, we have lives, and our lives involve our families first, but then our community, our church beyond that. [00:18:11] And we're reading everything we're doing, we're doing together, including reading the scripture. [00:18:14] So I see why it took off. [00:18:16] But so that's one thing that you guys are doing the Bible reading challenge. [00:18:19] And most people don't think when they think women's ministry, they would not think that. [00:18:24] What are some other things that you guys do? [00:18:26] Well, the summers in the Bible Reading Challenge is the same page summer. [00:18:31] We read the New Testament in the summer and then the whole Bible in the academic year. [00:18:37] And so this summer, one of the things that we did a kids' plan for locally, the kids' plan had like different treats on different days that were like around the town, like all different businesses that like where you could get a free cookie if you brought your plan in and got a stamp and whatever. [00:18:53] That's just about to wrap up. [00:18:55] This week with the treasure box at the church office, the like you read your way through. [00:19:00] So, but all of that stuff, all of the prizes, the things is something that our ladies' fellowship paid for with our, but you know, like it's things that we're doing. [00:19:10] So, I would say we're trying to be, we're trying to be, I don't want to say we're trying to meet all of the needs, but we're trying to see the places where women in the church genuinely need encouragement and help, like whether it's acclimating here or we did, we do a huge thing. [00:19:26] We did the first one. [00:19:28] Last Easter, and it was so fun. [00:19:32] And it was one of those things that when we did it, we were like, wait, this is the new tradition. [00:19:37] This is going to happen now every spring. [00:19:39] And it was a homemaking fair, which was just super fun. [00:19:44] There were, we had a whole bunch of different ladies that had like essentially booths to show people what they were doing, like lots of talented women with crazy, like really funny, wide variety of things. [00:19:57] And then we did had big prizes of fun things like table setting for 12 for Sabbath dinners and stuff, like big raffle prizes and lots of gifts. [00:20:07] And it was a really wonderful. [00:20:09] Part of the thing that would surprise people is that we feel like that's a great way to spend money is encouraging women to love their homes, right? [00:20:19] Encouraging them to be excited about wanting to win a sewing machine or a new iron, you know, like that this is a great use for that. [00:20:27] It was a super fun time. [00:20:28] So I would say our ladies' fellowship is abnormal in that way. [00:20:32] We don't have a regular mentorship program, but we do rely heavily on the fact that we, Have a community of women who are themselves always looking for opportunities to be hospitable, looking to encourage people. [00:20:48] So, we don't have a real women's ministry where it's a top down structure. [00:20:54] Right. [00:20:55] Right. [00:20:55] Yeah. [00:20:56] It's very like we expect all of the women to be engaged in encouraging each other in things. [00:21:04] Amen. [00:21:04] And because you're. [00:21:05] It's a small screen committee, but we give other people planned events for us. [00:21:11] Right. [00:21:12] No, I love that. [00:21:13] And part of it is because it's not that you don't have that at all. [00:21:16] It's because, yes, you're women, but you're also Christians, just like your husbands and just like the children. [00:21:23] And so, in terms of a context, like what if we could, you know, I've thought this as a pastor, I've thought, what if we could come up with a weekly event that was for women and men and children where someone could take the scripture and teach it and we could sing together? [00:21:42] Right. [00:21:42] Yeah. [00:21:42] You know what I mean? [00:21:43] And it could be overseas. [00:21:44] Seen by men, but they don't just oversee the men, but also the women, and they're biblically qualified. [00:21:50] We could call them elders. [00:21:51] So I think that sometimes women in the church, they forget that they have a church. [00:21:57] We have a church. [00:21:59] People will say sometimes to me, they're like, well, what are you doing for women to learn theology? [00:22:05] When I look at 1 Corinthians 14, for instance, where it's like, okay, it's shameful for a woman to speak in church, but then it's quickly followed up. [00:22:11] If she has anything she wants to learn, let her ask her husband at home. [00:22:14] That if the husband's doing a good job and if she's doing a good job in inquiring and actually being obedient and asking those questions, then there won't really be any disparity between what the husband is learning and what she's learning because all of his learning is hers. [00:22:28] It belongs to her. [00:22:29] It's her right. [00:22:31] And the primary context where both men and women are learning is side by side with their butts in a pew on the Lord's Day from pastors. [00:22:40] And I think some of it is just our dissatisfaction. [00:22:42] We've grown so bored. [00:22:44] We've lost the magic of the Lord's Day gathering of the saints. [00:22:48] We don't realize. [00:22:49] Which is why probably a lot of churches were content to shut down with COVID, that we don't realize how that's the tip of the spear. [00:22:58] That's the whole enchilada. [00:23:00] And so, unless there's some church that's barring women from Lord's Day attendance, then I just don't understand the profound concern of we've got to have this two hour or three hour women's only event with no kids because they're an interruption and a burden, and one woman is going to stand in front. [00:23:20] And she's going to do everything that the pastor would do with no difference whatsoever, but it's still technically okay because only women are present. [00:23:26] And I just, when I look at the scripture and I look at the importance of the local gathering with men, women, and children all together on the Lord's Day, and then I look at Titus 2, I just don't see that. [00:23:40] And it's not even that that can never happen, but I just don't see that as a staple in the New Testament. [00:23:45] But it appears to be like this non negotiable, we must have it staple in the church today. [00:23:52] And I'm not talking about in some charismatic word of faith, you know, heretical church. [00:23:58] I'm talking even within the Reformed camp. [00:24:00] What you're discussing right now, what I'm discussing, people will listen and they'll hear what you just said about winning prizes, and the prize might be a new iron or a sewing machine, and they will get like visibly angry. [00:24:13] They'll get mad. [00:24:16] And I'm talking about in our camp. [00:24:19] Yeah, I think, okay, this is kind of circling back. [00:24:22] I don't know, okay, you said you thought it was funny that we could say we're going to read the Bible together. [00:24:30] That you're in a niche world, also. [00:24:34] You know, like, and this is in the niche world that you're in, is actually not the one that I'm in. [00:24:40] It's not the same, it's a different thing. [00:24:43] And the Reformed world has a lot of variety in it, and that there are different flavors in different camps. [00:24:52] And I think that this is, you can correct me if I am wrong about this. [00:24:57] I have talked about the Bible reading challenge with Christians. [00:25:01] All over the place, and even if you hone in to like, I'd be willing to say I've talked enough about the Bible reading challenge that I have spoken to thousands of people about it, um, in different places because I've been occasionally at a table at a conference or any you know, like where you're really talking to people about it, right? [00:25:18] Um, in some, there is a more introspective, emotional, reformed world where people are not possibly reading their Bibles but are eaten alive by guilt that they're not reading their Bibles, they are more likely to. [00:25:35] Get convicted about one verse and go journal 30 pages about how they're feeling about it, and not like, and where that's really just although it's rampant in those churches that women are not reading their Bibles but are wildly introspective, [00:25:52] feeling guilty all the time, not getting any external to them work done that's spiritual at all because they're just trying to survive the life here while they live this turmoil laden life of the soul, you know, like that. [00:26:08] Where this is a thing. [00:26:09] So, on the one hand, the Bible reading challenge is super encouraging to those people because we're trying to break through all these random barriers. [00:26:17] But in the world that I suspect you're more part of, way, way, way more people are troubled with pride over what they know about their Bibles. [00:26:28] And I have had way more conversations in that particular world, at conferences in that world, great conference in that world, where people are actually disgusted with the idea that anyone is struggling with their Bible reading. [00:26:43] They're just like, what? [00:26:44] Who? [00:26:45] Not me. [00:26:45] I would never, you know, like, I would never be the sort of person who didn't finish reading my whole Bible. [00:26:52] You know, like, I would do that. [00:26:53] And that's a little world where they have a problem because they're not, a lot of the time, not applying it. [00:26:59] You know, like, they're living strangely kind of barren, joyless lives, but they're full of the arguments for their, like, they want to argue their heads off about different things, but they're not actually. [00:27:12] It's not touching the ground ever. [00:27:15] And then there are just kind of more sloppy evangelical world where people are like never considered reading their Bible. [00:27:21] Really, it seems hard. [00:27:24] And there's these funny things, and so I think it really depends on what group you got in. [00:27:29] That's true. [00:27:30] But I would say that I bet you anything that the treatment of the word is really reflected. [00:27:38] That treatment of the word in Bible reading is really reflected also in what we are talking about with women's ministry. [00:27:46] You know, that you have wildly emotional, kind of introspective groups where the reason you have to have women's gatherings is because we have to. [00:27:55] Grieve with each other. [00:27:57] We have to emote with each other. [00:27:59] We have to search our hearts together. [00:28:02] Then you have the little groups that want to get together to line up all of our arguments, you know, to fight the feminists. [00:28:09] Right. [00:28:10] And then you have the people that really don't know what they're doing. [00:28:12] They're like, I'm just here because I don't, you know, I just think that it probably follows their real cultural differences in those things. [00:28:21] Yeah. [00:28:22] Yeah, you're right. [00:28:23] No, you're right. [00:28:23] There's certainly, especially today, I'm sure it's always been this way. [00:28:27] And I'm probably just. [00:28:29] Learning these things for the first time, but it does seem as though there were, you know, Christianity has always had its multiple camps. [00:28:39] But it seems like if we had a hundred camps, it seems like now we have a thousand, like each one of those camps further fractured into 10 more camps. [00:28:49] And so, you know, within the Reformed world, you know, we, I mean, there were differences. [00:28:55] There were guys who were, you know, were Reformed in soteriology only, Calvinistic Baptist types that were continuationists. [00:29:01] And then, of course, there are Presbyterian guys, Westminster. [00:29:03] There are Reformed Baptists that are confessional with the 1689. [00:29:06] There was some variety, but now it's not like you have like three or four or five different Reformed sections. [00:29:13] You now have 100. [00:29:15] Like we're just at each other's throats because we had this whole 2020 wokeness COVID thing. [00:29:23] And half of us thought, wokeness is not a good look. [00:29:28] That's not what the Bible teaches. [00:29:29] And so it feels like we lost half of the team, but then the half that stayed. [00:29:35] Now, come to find out, we were united on the problem, but we disagree on the solution, you know. [00:29:39] And some, it's like, I think classical liberalism and, you know, principled pluralism, I think that'll work, you know. [00:29:45] Let's just get back to that. [00:29:46] That 1985 was awesome. [00:29:49] And then there are others, like your dad, you know, who's like, Well, I think, um, I think we should, uh, have Christendom, you know, and, uh, you know, mere, mere Christendom and mere Christendom. [00:30:02] Yeah, that's, you're right. [00:30:03] To be fair, it's a mere Christendom. [00:30:05] Um, and so anyway, so, and then even with that, there's a difference between, you know, are you the Post mill theonomy guy, or are you more of a classical two kingdom Thomist kind of, you know? [00:30:14] So, anyway, so all that being said, it's, you know, it's, and it's going to be really interesting. [00:30:18] I'm honored that, like, Gabe Brinch, you know, he invited me to join your dad and Stephen Wolf for a panel discussion at Fight Laugh Feast off of different versions of Christian nationalism, you know? [00:30:29] So we're going to, and we'll see how that goes. [00:30:31] That'll be really interesting. [00:30:32] But all that being said, we're so fractured right now. [00:30:35] And you're right, like, that, that on one hand, I like to think that I'm in the same. [00:30:40] Camp as you because I like your camp. [00:30:42] I like your dad. [00:30:43] I like what's going on in Moscow, but there's so many, you know, tiny little isolated and all that's exasperated right now. [00:30:52] And I don't know what's going to happen. [00:30:53] But anyway, it's okay that there are so many camps. [00:30:57] It's still just one body. [00:30:59] Right. [00:30:59] You know, it's like there's a lot of confusion in places, but it's not like there's still tons of solidarity. [00:31:07] It's just sometimes it's easy to get your eyes only on the terrible things that are happening, you know, but. === Fear, Counsel, and Sovereignty (14:58) === [00:31:15] A lot of the reason we know about all of this is not because people just got worse. [00:31:19] It's just because we actually know what's happening everywhere. [00:31:23] Right. [00:31:23] And we can communicate with everyone instead of just having a little feud with the church down the road from us. [00:31:29] We now can have a little feud with whoever we pick out on the internet. [00:31:33] You know, we can mark and avoid people from a long way away. [00:31:38] True. [00:31:38] Very true. [00:31:40] Our sponsors, Private Family Banking Partners, is on a mission to help Christians live out the Dominion Mandate by making a stealth like move away from the mainstream banks and into their own privatized banking system. [00:31:54] This innovative system is designed to guarantee uninterrupted compound interest and tax-free growth without exposure to typical stock market risk. [00:32:06] To join this growing community that is already building wealth unto future generations and converting post-mill talk into post-mill action, contact Private Family Banking partner Chuck Dallotterante at his email, chuck at privatefamilybanking.com. [00:32:27] That's Chuck at PrivateFamilyBanking.com. [00:32:31] Set up an appointment and receive a free copy of Chuck's new book, Protect Your Money Now How to Build Multi Generational Wealth Outside of Wall Street and Avoid the Coming Banking Meltdown. [00:32:45] Go to the links in the show notes below. [00:32:48] Are you looking for a Christian owned and operated cattle company that delivers high quality beef to your doorstep? [00:32:54] If so, you'll love Mercy Meadows Ranch. [00:32:57] Our friends at Mercy Meadows share our values and vision. [00:33:01] Making the Dominion mandate a reality. [00:33:04] They raise top quality beef without any vaccines, hormones, or antibiotics. [00:33:09] To celebrate their fall bulk beef launch, they're giving away a free 10 pound box of ground beef to one of our listeners. [00:33:18] You could be the winner of this amazing grass fed, grain finished beef. [00:33:23] Are you looking for beef to fill the freezer? [00:33:26] Then check out their delicious steaks, roast, fajitas, and ground beef. [00:33:31] Shipped free directly to your door. [00:33:34] Don't miss this chance to enter this incredible giveaway. [00:33:38] Just click the link in the description below to enter the giveaway. [00:33:42] Mercy Meadows Ranch is the best choice for Christian families who want to eat healthy and support Christians serving Christians. [00:33:51] So, Bible reading challenge. [00:33:54] And then, you guys, well, let's just talk about this. [00:33:57] I know this isn't necessarily a Christ Church thing, this is more of a your thing. [00:34:01] Um, but could you just share with our audience what you do with your workshops? [00:34:05] My wife has participated in multiple women in our church, they love it. [00:34:09] Yeah, webinar. [00:34:10] Okay, I didn't know what to call it, but yeah, I have not done any because I just had a baby eight months ago. [00:34:15] I've not done any since I had him, so uh, and I don't have one right now that I'm about to do that I know of yet. [00:34:24] Uh, so I don't have one to push there, but there are pretty much what it would be would be a live discussion of something with a QA at the end, and I think most of them, or maybe all of them, are now. [00:34:35] On Canon Plus, which is cool, I think what you're talking about. [00:34:37] So, while there's no live QA that can happen, you can still go watch those. [00:34:43] So, they're typically topical, something that I feel like I see as a thing that we need to talk about. [00:34:50] But I, um, so there's some, I think there's detox for the modern mom was one of them. [00:34:56] There's like culture building, uh, there was a friendship one, you know, like there's just emotional control things that I see being issues. [00:35:03] Uh, and my hope in those is always to kind of My hope is that they'll always be practical, but they often really have to start with, like, let's talk about what we believe, what does the Bible say, and how should this inform our behavior in this area? [00:35:17] Which I would say they're very, I mean, I am doing the webinars for women. [00:35:22] So, I am choosing issues that I think are issues for women. [00:35:26] You know, like what do I think are things people need to talk about? [00:35:30] So, basically, that's what I do here. [00:35:32] Cool. [00:35:33] Yeah. [00:35:33] One example I always use in terms of like that older woman training younger women that's getting in, it's just getting into theology in the abstract, and you have to, and then applying. [00:35:45] One common example would be submission to husbands. [00:35:48] Like, so I always think of 1 Peter 3. [00:35:49] My wife has probably had this conversation more than any other conversation with. [00:35:53] You know, other women in the church, and you know, she's the pastor's wife, and she's giving some counsel about okay, things are hot right now in the marriage, and not hot in a good way, but like hot in an argumentative way. [00:36:05] And the woman is seeking counsel, you know, from a godly woman in the church, and my wife, you know, occasionally appears in the picture. [00:36:12] And one of the things that often comes up is, you know, in 1 Peter 3, it, you know, it ends by, you know, and you are her daughter, speaking of Sarah, that, you know, the women of old, these holy women of old, she called her husband, you know, lowercase l, Lord. [00:36:25] And you are like her. [00:36:26] You will be like her. [00:36:27] Do likewise and be her daughter if you also likewise submit to your husband and do not fear anything that is frightening. [00:36:35] And so, right there, that last part, fear anything that is frightening, usually the conversation goes something like this. [00:36:40] My wife will sit with someone for 30 minutes, 45 minutes and talk to them about submission to a husband. [00:36:48] And about 70% of it on the front half will be about the sovereignty of God. [00:36:54] And it'll be a full orbed, right? [00:36:56] It's not just particular to a woman, but it's a full orbed. [00:36:59] Doctrine of the sovereignty of God that he controls every, there's no maverick molecule in the universe, as Sprole would have said. [00:37:06] God is sovereign over everything, including, and now we're going to apply it, including your husband. [00:37:12] That's why Peter could talk to someone who's married to even an unbelieving husband, and he could say submission is something that God commands. [00:37:22] And the thing that's frightening in that context, at least in my assessment, that the first thing that he might be referencing, do not fear anything that is frightening, is the frightening reality of submitting to a sinner. [00:37:35] And so, my wife, in order to apply that, she first has to give a full orbed understanding of not sourdough or ironing, but the sovereignty of God, but then applies it to, and I think that's beautiful. [00:37:51] I think that is absolutely Titus II approved. [00:37:54] That's what it is. [00:37:55] So, it's not that women can't teach doctrine of God or can't teach God's sovereignty or can't teach substitutionary atonement. [00:38:02] Of course, they can, they must. [00:38:05] But then it's applied. [00:38:06] And now, and that's really the same thing with older men training younger men. [00:38:10] If you go just a little bit further in Titus 2, I think that that's not a reference of elders teaching on the Lord's day to the gathered saints, but that's older men on a Tuesday afternoon training younger men in particular things that pertain to manhood. [00:38:24] And that's always what we're doing we're taking theology and applying it. [00:38:27] And I think part of the problem, part of the reason why women's ministries and men's ministries, for that matter, these kinds of things have gotten off the rails is because we don't do theology applied. [00:38:38] We don't have, as you guys would say, theology that comes out of our fingertips. [00:38:42] It's just let's talk about theology in the abstract and not what does it look like on the ground. [00:38:49] And it's when you get to the ground, the practical side, that it's helpful, but that's also where it usually ends up getting controversial. [00:38:57] That's where you'll get a lot of the negative feedback. [00:38:59] You know, she said what? [00:39:01] Or he did what? [00:39:02] You know, because if you just talk about God being sovereign, or you just talk, the husband's the head of the home, but you don't ever give any practical example of what headship might look like on a Wednesday morning. [00:39:13] Then you're probably safe, not safe from the rainbow flag, you know, Ukraine flag, you know, pronouns in the bio, but you're probably safe from people in the larger camp. [00:39:22] But when you get practical, that's when you get in trouble. [00:39:25] And so I think it may be a fear of getting backlash or also just the fact that none of us were hearers of the word, but we're just not doers in our generation. [00:39:33] There's a real problem with it. [00:39:35] But one or the other, there's just such a massive lack of application. [00:39:40] And so I think any women's ministry that 45 minutes of doctrine of God. [00:39:45] Great. [00:39:45] And then, but then that QA and discussion and the practical application that's unique to women, your actual years, that's what makes it Titus too. [00:39:53] And it's glorious. [00:39:54] But a lot of people don't, we don't do that on the men's side, the women's side, the whole nine yards. [00:39:59] We don't apply theology. [00:40:01] Do you have any thoughts about that? [00:40:04] I think it's, I think you're right, but I think a big part of that is that applying theology to anyone, it's always reflective on yourself. [00:40:14] It's always, it's like, it's much, Easier to talk about the abstracts than it is to say, so in this exact situation, you need to say you're sorry for having been bossy about whatever, because it does call in your own behavior. [00:40:32] It does make you reflect on how, like, have I been, you know, I might not be having this particular problem right now, but it's amazing how having to speak really practically does draw your attention to your own shortcomings, right? [00:40:48] Does. [00:40:49] And that's in the best possible circumstance. [00:40:52] Like when the person that you're counseling is receiving it graciously and wants to do what you said, you still are going to probably notice the places that you're like. [00:41:04] And that's a huge benefit of actually trying to disciple and counsel people. [00:41:10] If you're willing, you know, if you're willing for that, a huge benefit of it is it often just brings things to your attention that you were not. [00:41:18] Focused on right now that you need to be focused on right now. [00:41:21] You know, like I, you have a moment where you're like, listen, you need to think of ways that you can bless your husband and you need to like, let me walk you through how you can think. [00:41:32] And then you're like, oh, wow, Rachel, turns out you should think about this too right now. [00:41:36] It was not on my mind. [00:41:37] You know, like it's a, it is the kind of thing that, and that just happens all the time. [00:41:42] So that's uncomfortable, right? [00:41:44] It's an uncomfortable thing to actually start applying things. [00:41:47] It's like, looks shockingly like spiritual work. [00:41:52] Now we're going to get down to the thing that's like, that's when it crosses your own flesh. [00:41:57] That's when it is like the reason you need to apply it because you're not doing it naturally or instinctively, or it's, you know, it's always, there's always some level of rebuke in that, right? [00:42:11] It just is the way that it is. [00:42:14] So I would say it's fear, it's protecting yourself and protecting the person that you need to talk to because the reality is it takes a lot of courage. [00:42:23] Right now, in these days, to biblically counsel someone. [00:42:28] Like when they say what's wrong, and any pastor's wife probably can tell you when you need to counsel someone who you feel like might explode, and everything you say might be on the internet out of context. [00:42:44] And the flesh does not always want to say, Here's how it is. [00:42:49] You know, like, let me tell you, because you just know you might. [00:42:53] I mean, there's a self protective instinct there. [00:42:58] That you really have to overcome, that you have to be willing to be like, Well, Lord, use it. [00:43:04] I'm going to say what I know to be true. [00:43:08] And I'm willing to, like, if this means someone's going to go around and tell all their friends and make a big scene somewhere, so be it. [00:43:16] You know, here it goes. [00:43:18] Yep. [00:43:18] No, you're absolutely right. [00:43:20] That's very insightful. [00:43:20] I didn't even think about that. [00:43:21] But also, just one of the hindrances is self preservation. [00:43:27] And that's, I mean, my kids would, you know, be the first ones to tell you if you ask, like, what, you know, what's one of the most common prayers that dad prays in the home? [00:43:35] Every morning we pray through a number of things, but one of them is, God, please protect us from, um, From those who would seek to do us harm. [00:43:43] Because every day, like that's a reality is that there are people who want to destroy our lives. [00:43:50] You know, I mean, they really want to destroy our lives. [00:43:53] And so, you know, praying like for God's protection so that you can, so that you actually can have the courage to minister and disciple and give something, knowing that in today's climate, there is a very real possibility that. [00:44:11] Um, as much as you give, all that can be weaponized and turned back against you to uh to ruin your life, and so it is a very dangerous thing to minister to others. [00:44:24] It's like if you if you want to just survive and and you know preserve yourself, then don't don't be a Christian and don't do discipleship and don't don't minister because if you do, you're putting a target on your chest. [00:44:38] So, yeah, no, that's really insightful. [00:44:41] Um, last thing is, um I would love to hear just a little bit. [00:44:45] Are you and your sister, Becca, are you still doing your podcast? [00:44:49] Allegedly, we are. [00:44:52] We've had a really wild summer where we're never in the same place for a few minutes. [00:44:56] But yes, we are still doing it, although we've had a lot of downtime this summer. [00:45:02] That's fine. [00:45:04] So tell our listeners about, you know, because that's for women. [00:45:08] And I've heard like two episodes because I'm not a woman, but occasionally my wife is like, you have to. [00:45:12] She does the same thing with Brighthearth. [00:45:14] You know, Brian Sauvay is a friend and his wife, Lexi. [00:45:18] And I like Brian, but I don't like Brighthearth. [00:45:24] But my wife, she listens every single time they come out with something. [00:45:27] And occasionally, you got to listen to this one. [00:45:31] And so, anyway, so I've listened to a couple of you and Becca, and the ones that she had me listen to were fantastic. [00:45:36] But it's not like your typical pockets. [00:45:39] It's not what you would think of a women's ministry, but I think it's so good. [00:45:44] It's so healthy. [00:45:45] So tell our listeners, what is a podcast like with you and your sister? [00:45:48] What are you guys trying to achieve? [00:45:50] Well, I'll tell you how it happened, which was back when someone was saying, You guys should really do a podcast. [00:45:55] I really think you should do a podcast. [00:45:57] And we were like, Well, what is the kind of podcast that we would possibly do? [00:46:03] And we were like, If we don't have to go anywhere, like we don't have to be in a studio, we record our podcast on a phone in the car together. === Faithful Work Amid Surprise (06:59) === [00:46:13] We do not prepare in advance for what we're going to talk about. [00:46:20] So, I would say I know for sure it's far more like friends talking about what's going on. [00:46:26] And we do always try to have, I can't swear that it's always happened, but we do try to have some more spiritual, not just blabbing about our details of our life, things that we're thinking about. [00:46:39] But we do try to talk more about spiritual issues. [00:46:42] I think that part of the reason it is helpful for people is that it is so unplanned, unscholarly. [00:46:52] It is actually. [00:46:54] More like inviting people to join us in applying our faith to our lives and talking about what's going on and what it means and how to, you know, and maybe what we're working through. [00:47:06] So that's the goal of it. [00:47:07] It really is. [00:47:08] We don't try to confine ourselves to specific themes or, you know, we'll just talk about whatever. [00:47:14] So you have to have a high tolerance for people just talking, you know, interrupting each other to enjoy it. [00:47:23] But if you have that, then you might enjoy it. [00:47:27] Cool. [00:47:28] One of the ones that my wife shared with me was I think it was recently after your youngest boy was born. [00:47:35] And, uh, And you were sharing something with your sister, and you started to get a little emotional, which you don't normally do. [00:47:45] And Becca was like, Rachel, it's okay. [00:47:49] This time's okay. [00:47:50] You can cry. [00:47:51] She said something like that. [00:47:53] I think it was probably the one that we called a leaky episode or something. [00:47:58] You can't say something without feeling a little bit wow. [00:48:02] But that has been the case. [00:48:03] I mean, Ezra is our eighth baby, he was born with Down syndrome, which was a surprise at birth. [00:48:11] This is what I'm assuming that's that right. [00:48:13] Yeah, tell us about it. [00:48:14] I was just, it was, it would have been that episode. [00:48:18] Yeah. [00:48:19] And it is funny. [00:48:20] We're not really emotional, emotionally wrong because I would not say we're not emotional. [00:48:25] I would say we're not usually, we're not just going to talk all about our feelings or we would not usually get teary on the podcast. [00:48:35] And in that one, it's for sure. [00:48:36] I was like, man, it's funny how much you realize it was you cry not because you're sad, but because you're talking about very. [00:48:42] Deeply held beliefs, like because you need to talk about things that you really truly believe to your core, like that God is good, that this is a gift, that He's not surprised, that this is everything that we're supposed to be doing. [00:48:58] And there's no, it wasn't, you know, I don't remember what all we were talking about in that episode, except for the fact that I was saying it's funny, you just have all of these realizations, you know, that there never was an Ezra. [00:49:13] Who didn't have Down syndrome? [00:49:14] Like, God has always known that this is what he was doing. [00:49:18] As much as it surprised us to have a baby at all in my 40s, we say he's the dot on the exclamation point, you know, but you know that God was always, that God always knew and that God was always doing this. [00:49:33] And it's a beautiful thing to immediately receive it as, yes, Lord, like I am willing to do whatever. [00:49:41] And I love how much Ezra has been, his whole life has been like, Kind of not, I wouldn't say funny, but a comedy of some sorts of answered prayers. [00:49:53] You know, when I first found out I was pregnant with him and we were very shocked, in spite of the fact that we had seven other children, we acted like people who had never taken a pregnancy test. [00:50:03] That this cannot, like, I, where did this come from? [00:50:09] And I think because we were so at peace that we thought we were clear on what God wanted from us, you know, like it was like, it wasn't that we were actively saying, no, we can never have another. [00:50:20] Child, we were so invested in not. [00:50:23] It was just that we were very comfortable with the fact that we felt like God had given us a ton to do and we were trying to faithfully do it. [00:50:29] And then it was a really funny surprise to be pregnant. [00:50:33] And it was hilarious how much we were having the whole like saying, I think that this test is saying I'm pregnant. [00:50:41] And I don't think so. [00:50:43] I think that that's just no, that's just the control line. [00:50:46] Like we were like first timers all the way again. [00:50:48] It was hilarious. [00:50:51] Anyways, as much as I can. [00:50:52] What's the gap between the seventh and eighth child? [00:50:57] Seven years. [00:50:58] Seven years. [00:50:59] Okay, so that was really a surprise. [00:51:01] Yeah, seven years. [00:51:02] And our oldest was just going into college. [00:51:05] So we just moved into it. [00:51:07] It was our first year of all of the kids. [00:51:09] Well, she was in college, but everybody else in school all day. [00:51:12] And like it was the first sort of like, okay, this is a different era. [00:51:16] It was a hilarious, like, whoa, the Lord has a very different plan. [00:51:21] And I get super morning sick. [00:51:24] So a huge amount of the nerves about finding out that I was pregnant was like, that's going to be a significant chunk of time. [00:51:34] That I become useless to the family, you know, that I am, well, more than useless, actually. [00:51:40] I'm laying down on the bathroom floor or puking or whatever I'm doing. [00:51:44] I'm not making dinner and I'm not doing the laundry and people are having to feed me. [00:51:48] People are having to try to keep me alive. [00:51:51] And in the middle of a real, what felt like a breathless pace of life, you feel like, oh my word, I'm about to, like, I was very sick at my daughter's high school graduation. [00:52:03] You know, like it was, it was a funny time. [00:52:04] It was a funny time. [00:52:06] And, uh, So, my nerves on finding out I was pregnant have far more to do with the morning sickness, you know, far more to do with the like, oh man, buckle up because here comes the time that we all hate. [00:52:21] And, uh, but one of the things I think of Ezra as being such an answer to prayer because I prayed so much then at the very beginning, like, Lord, root out from me any spirit of self preservation, any desire to, like, no, I don't want to give this or I'm not willing, I like, I don't want to be sick right now or I don't want to do this right now. [00:52:40] Um, And also, just be glorified in this life, be glorified by this child, be glorified by this. [00:52:46] And I cannot think of a better answer to those prayers than this precious little boy that we were given. [00:52:53] We never saw that coming, you know, it was no, none of it was our plan. [00:52:58] But it is so sweet knowing how clearly I mean, I always it's awkward to say this it's so sweet that we believe that God is in control of everything, but that's not what's sweet. [00:53:09] What's sweet is that God is in control of everything, right? === Parenting Beyond Sibling Roles (03:28) === [00:53:13] Uh, and it. [00:53:14] Is just a mercy that we trust that he is, you know, like his the design of nothing really could be more precious than what he has done for us in this child. [00:53:25] It's been a wonderful, sweet time. [00:53:28] But it was so not of our doing, you know, so not our idea of what we were going to do. [00:53:33] Yeah. [00:53:33] It's just been a really super precious. [00:53:36] And I would say nobody goes around saying, hey guys, it's actually super fun to have five teenagers and a newborn. [00:53:45] It's actually. [00:53:47] Really cool to have. [00:53:48] Nobody aims for that kid spread. [00:53:50] I don't know why. [00:53:52] Well, I figure you get, you probably get a decent amount of help to have older children, several older children, you know? [00:53:59] Yes, they are, they are a sweet help. [00:54:01] Although we have, I would say, I always, we have strong feelings about that, that this is our child, not their child. [00:54:09] Like I'm that. [00:54:10] So it is what is sweet is having so many people have almost adult relationships to the baby. [00:54:18] That is a really, That's very different than when I felt like it was all babies in the house. [00:54:23] Like his morning is just slammed with everybody coming in separately to say good morning to him. [00:54:29] Like to be like, here I am, good morning. [00:54:32] You know, like they're all like, it's like his appointments in the morning are very busy. [00:54:36] That's funny. [00:54:37] But no, that's a good way of putting it adult relationships to the child and not mom relationships, because I'm with you 100%. [00:54:44] That's one of the things that with, I remember watching, you know, the documentary, The Happy Shiny People, you know, because everybody was talking to me. [00:54:51] At the end of the day, like it was a hit job on Christians, of course. [00:54:55] But there were some things that you and I, your camp, my camp, like we would strongly differ. [00:54:59] Say patriarchy is good, uh, children are good, blessing from the Lord, um, all these things are really good. [00:55:06] But I remember, you know, multiple things, but one thing in particular that me and my wife we looked at each other on the couch, we're like, uh, but they talked about, you know, uh, it was the the dug-out mother saying, you know, that uh, once the child, um, you know, when it's when they're an infant, uh, then they're my buddy, the buddy system, but once they're two years old, they become your buddy and buddy, and then and then they show what what buddy means, and it's like the two-year-old sleeping in one of the older daughter's uh beds with her at night. [00:55:34] So, buddy, and I was like, oh, I know what you mean by buddy, but you mean baby. [00:55:39] Like when they're an infant, they're my baby. [00:55:41] And once they're two, they're your baby. [00:55:43] And it's like, but she's still a baby. [00:55:45] She doesn't need a baby. [00:55:46] She's 11, you know, she's 12. [00:55:48] And so, and that is something that, you know, like we want to be fruitful. [00:55:52] We're both, you know, our camps, like we're very much, you know, think that that's in line with scripture and it's a blessing. [00:56:00] But fruitfulness is, we want to be effective. [00:56:04] I like the way your dad puts it. [00:56:05] You know, Samuel would not have been benefited in any way to have. [00:56:08] Five sons that took bribes instead of two. [00:56:11] So, like, we're, you know, we want, yeah, let's have as many arrows as we can, but let's, they need to be sharp and straight. [00:56:17] Cause some of these arrows are so bent, they're like boomerangs. [00:56:19] You shoot them out, they go all the way back, you know, and then slap the Christian parent in the face. [00:56:24] And like, we don't need to produce enlistments for the enemy. [00:56:29] We want children that are solid. [00:56:31] And part of that means that we're going to be their parents and not their older sibling. [00:56:36] So, so anyway, so I know your views on that. [00:56:39] And that's, I completely agree. === Reformation Progression in Corinth (08:04) === [00:56:41] Any final thoughts or final words that you want to leave our audience with? [00:56:44] Anything that maybe might be up and coming? [00:56:46] I know your life is busy right now. [00:56:47] And so you're probably, you know, focusing on the home, which is great. [00:56:50] But anything you want to let our listeners know about? [00:56:54] Man, I can't think of. [00:56:56] Well, I don't know when this episode is airing. [00:56:59] Do you know? [00:57:01] Usually we record, I think we've got one or two in the hopper. [00:57:05] So I'd say like two weeks. [00:57:07] Okay. [00:57:08] Well, then we'll be. [00:57:09] I was going to say today was actually the last day of. [00:57:14] The same page summer Bible reading challenge and the to the word through the Bible kicks off September 4th. [00:57:21] So it's going to be probably be hearing this right after it kicks off. [00:57:27] Either way, jump in and join us. [00:57:30] And even if you are an experienced Bible reader, like I always think the reason we started the Bible reading challenge was it was we had a conference that was a celebration of 500 years since the Reformation in 2017. [00:57:45] And it was In the conversation around that and things that we were talking about afterwards, in that conversation, it was a realization that there was another time when the world was so chaotic and so messed up and so tragic how the church was behaving. [00:58:08] And yet, the thing that turned really all of civilization on its head was Christians reading the word. [00:58:14] Like it was the word going to Christians. [00:58:17] And the realization that That reading the word, that the word does not return void, but what is it that it does? [00:58:24] Is it, is it equips you for every good work, that it trains you in righteousness, that it does all this? [00:58:29] I think how many Christians in the world feel fully equipped for the work God has put them in and are feeling like, uh, it's, it's a funny thing. [00:58:38] But if you think about it, this is a specifically to women. [00:58:42] This is the thing that I would say women are very intuitive at encouraging each other about little things that don't matter much, right? [00:58:50] This is my new purse that someone posts on Facebook, and everyone's like, It's so cute. [00:58:55] Oh my goodness. [00:58:56] Where did you get it? [00:58:57] You know, like lots of chit chat. [00:58:58] Like women are very good at that kind of chit chat. [00:59:01] And in this conference where we talked about a bunch of women from the Reformation in the QA, it had come up. [00:59:07] And I said something that immediately was like, oh my word, I just said a thing that I do not like thinking about, which we'd been talking about all these impressive women of the Reformation. [00:59:18] And someone asked, maybe how did they do it or how were they, whatever. [00:59:22] And my comment was, I would hope that if Katie Luther could see what we did with our lives, that she would think, I wonder how they ever got all that done. [00:59:32] Like, how did they ever, like, instead of us acting like peak Christian women happened a long time ago and never again will women be really effective or really strong or really faithful? [00:59:46] Like, oh, we're all just going to kind of be. [00:59:48] And I was thinking, you know, specifically social media is something that I think those women, there's a lot going on, but those women had already given their whole lives to, you know, many of them were nuns. [01:00:02] In those really crazy orders of nuns where you're like waking yourself up all through the night to pray and stuff, they were already all in for the gospel. [01:00:13] So when they turned from the Catholic Church to this idea of investing yourselves in your homes and children and like and doing actually living your faith out in a way that will impact people around you, they had a tremendous impact. [01:00:30] But it was not because they were superhuman, it was because they were. [01:00:34] Because they were all in for the gospel and then they were living as faithful women in that time. [01:00:41] And it made me think of like, how are we stewarding social media and how would those women think we ought to be stewarding it? [01:00:49] And so that idea of women are very natural at encouraging each other. [01:00:53] Why not encourage each other to be reading their Bibles? [01:00:56] Why not make it instead of, wow, that's cute, like, I'm so glad you're reading with us. [01:01:01] You know, like, welcome, join us, like, read the Bible with us. [01:01:07] We've already seen just huge amounts of fruit from that. [01:01:10] And I think like Christians really underestimate the power of the word, the power of getting people into the word, the way it equips people to mature so quickly and be equipped to pull people along with them. [01:01:24] So that's my biggest plug, really, is to don't overlook it, but consider joining the Bible Reading Challenge and get all your friends. [01:01:32] That sounds great. [01:01:33] No, I love what you said about like Katie Luther and, you know, I've heard it said, and I think it's well put, but we are not the lesser sons of former sires. [01:01:42] And whether it's going back to the Reformation 500 years ago or 2,000 years ago, I mean, how many times do Christians say, man, we've got to get back to the early church? [01:01:50] I don't want to get back to Corinth. [01:01:52] I don't want to get back to Corinth. [01:01:53] You know what I mean? [01:01:56] And you see progressively. [01:01:58] We've got trouble enough as it is, don't we? [01:02:00] Right, exactly. [01:02:01] And it's just, you know, things are getting worse and worse, you know. [01:02:04] And no, like there is incredible things in God's providence that He's gradually and progressively bringing about through the church. [01:02:12] We're a mess, that's true. [01:02:14] But I'd like to think that we're not quite the mess that Corinth was, you know, and that there actually has been progression. [01:02:20] I think there has. [01:02:21] Our theology is sharpened. [01:02:23] I mean, it took 500 years for people just to understand the doctrine of God, you know, and maybe it's a thousand years for the doctrine of God, and then the next thousand years with soteriology. [01:02:32] And I don't know, maybe this third millennium, you know, since Christ coming, maybe we figure out Christian ethics. [01:02:38] You know, maybe we can get like some decent Christian politics in the mix. [01:02:41] But the point is, We're not the lesser sons of former sires. [01:02:44] And getting in the word, you're right, we shouldn't look at some of these heroes. [01:02:48] They are heroes worthy of our honor. [01:02:50] They're spiritual fathers and mothers that deserve to be honored, but we are not their bastard children. [01:02:59] By God's grace, we can do it. [01:03:00] We don't need to be, and we don't need to be acting like that. [01:03:05] And I think it's really common for everyone to want to hunker down instead of saying, Yeah, things are really dark out right now. [01:03:12] But this is actually the time that God chose to put us. [01:03:18] And what are we doing? [01:03:21] I often have told people this. [01:03:22] I feel like when you're born, it's like a rock was thrown into a pond, and your life is so short. [01:03:28] It's just that time in the air before you hit the water and you're through to the other side. [01:03:33] You know, before like there's only so much time up here. [01:03:36] And often I'm thinking about, Lord, make it bigger and splashier. [01:03:41] Like while we're flying through the air, how can we have more and more of an impact? [01:03:47] Like how can you use us more and more as much as we can? [01:03:52] Can. [01:03:53] And that just goes back to the self preservation thing again, because it is just deciding that you want, well, deciding by God's grace. [01:04:01] We're all in for the gospel. [01:04:02] We're all in where He planted us right now. [01:04:06] We're all in with, you know, when you read some piece of scripture that confronts your own sin, we're all in with repenting and getting it right and trying to do what honors God. [01:04:17] And that there's a ton of fun and joy in that whole, in that. [01:04:23] Process. [01:04:26] But it is for sure, maybe I would say, not for the faint of heart. [01:04:29] It's for sure the like, okay, let's just take it from God that this is what we're for. [01:04:37] And how much can we throw ourselves into that, to what He has called us to? [01:04:41] Amen. [01:04:42] Rachel, thanks for coming on the show. [01:04:44] Yeah, my pleasure. [01:04:45] Thanks for having me.