NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Boniface Option w Andrew Isker Aired: 2023-08-29 Duration: 45:13 === The Hobbit Strategy (11:15) === [00:00:00] Join Douglas Wilson, Dr. Joseph Boot, Brian Sauvay, Eric Kahn, and myself on March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd for our 2024 conference. [00:00:10] It's called Blueprints for Christendom 2.0. [00:00:13] Our early bird pricing ends on Thursday, August 31st. [00:00:18] So go and visit RightResponseConference.com to register today. [00:00:23] We hope to see you at the conference in March. [00:00:29] The Boniface Option. [00:00:30] Andrew Isker's brand new book has just been released. [00:00:33] And last time I checked, it's soaring through the charts, even passing up the recent drivel written by Russell Moore. [00:00:40] So we can always thank God for that. [00:00:42] We're going to be discussing two things about St. Boniface. [00:00:46] Number one, the man was used by God to chop down idols. [00:00:50] And number two, he used the wood from these recently chopped down idols to restore and build the new Christendom. [00:00:57] This is what we'll be discussing on our episode today of Theology Applied with our special guest. [00:01:03] Andrew Isker. [00:01:04] Applying God's word to every aspect of life. [00:01:08] This is Theology Applied. [00:01:14] All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. [00:01:17] I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries. [00:01:19] I'm very honored to welcome back to the show. [00:01:21] This is the second time now, Andrew Isker. [00:01:24] Andrew Isker is a pastor in Minnesota or close to it? [00:01:28] Minnesota, you got it. [00:01:29] Yeah. [00:01:29] Okay. [00:01:30] Close to Minneapolis. [00:01:31] That's what I was thinking. [00:01:33] Not too close. [00:01:33] Yeah. [00:01:34] Not too close. [00:01:36] So, he's a pastor. [00:01:37] He's also an author of a best selling book. [00:01:40] Him and Andrew Torba co wrote Not the Case for Christian Nationalism, but just what was the subtitle? [00:01:46] Christian Nationalism. [00:01:47] Christian Nationalism. [00:01:48] Yeah. [00:01:49] And Christian Nationalism, a biblical guide to taking dominion and discipling the nations was the title. [00:01:55] Awesome. [00:01:55] So, yeah. [00:01:56] So, I read that book about a year ago when a bunch of other people read it too. [00:01:59] I thought you guys did a great job. [00:02:00] And I know that you were trying to, you know, and you nailed it being first to market and just saying, all right, we've got something. [00:02:06] Sure, we could take a year and clean it up. [00:02:08] But not everybody can write the 400 page version of Christian nationalism like Stephen Wolfe. [00:02:13] But you beat him to the punch. [00:02:15] You guys did a great job. [00:02:16] That was my first introduction to you. [00:02:18] I thought it was well written. [00:02:19] I thought you had a lot of good stuff to say. [00:02:21] And then I had you on the show with CJ, who's your podcast host. [00:02:25] That was a great time. [00:02:26] And now I'm having you again because now you do have a book that, from all the appearances, it seems like this is the book that you did take your time with. [00:02:35] You could have got it out sooner, but it's like, no, I want this thorough, Ironclad argument. [00:02:40] And the name of the book is what? [00:02:42] The Boniface Option is the name of the new book. [00:02:45] The Boniface Option. [00:02:46] So, Andrew, welcome to the show. [00:02:48] And let's just jump right in. [00:02:49] Tell us about The Boniface Option. [00:02:51] Yeah. [00:02:52] Well, thank you so much for having me on again. [00:02:55] It's always a pleasure. [00:02:57] And yeah, the book, it is a book about the world that we live in is totally fake. [00:03:06] It's not real. [00:03:08] It's out of. [00:03:10] Line with how God made the world. [00:03:12] Every part of it is this funhouse mirror of the created order that God made. [00:03:19] So the last hundred years has been really bad. [00:03:23] It's destroyed so much of our way of life that God created for us. [00:03:29] And most people are totally oblivious to it. [00:03:31] They're not aware of it. [00:03:32] You're born into the world you're born into and you don't realize it. [00:03:35] But if you look back, you see, oh, people actually had families and households and we knew what men and women were. [00:03:42] And the differences between men and women. [00:03:44] We had actual education that people received. [00:03:49] We had functioning societies. [00:03:52] We had friends. [00:03:53] We had people we know. [00:03:55] Most people are completely alone. [00:03:58] They don't have any friends. [00:03:59] They don't have any relationships that are real, any deep connections with people. [00:04:03] And so the world is really bad. [00:04:06] And of course, I don't want the book to be just, oh, if only you knew how bad things really were, that meme. [00:04:13] But part of it is recognizing and coming to grips with the reality of how bad the world is, but then also learning to hate that and love the world that God actually made and taking the steps in your own life and with wherever your influence is and whatever you can do. [00:04:30] To rebuild what is good and true and beautiful. [00:04:34] And so it's an exhortation to that, to do those things. [00:04:37] And you're playing off of also with the title, the Boniface option, as opposed to the Benedict option. [00:04:43] Go ahead and explain that for the listener. [00:04:45] Yeah. [00:04:46] So I'm sure, you know, a number of your listeners are familiar with Rod Dreher's book, The Benedict Option. [00:04:55] That came out, I think, in 2017. [00:04:57] And, you know, I remember reading it and thinking, oh, this is pretty good. [00:04:59] Yeah. [00:05:00] This, this, um, This hits on a few points that are important. [00:05:06] I mean, there's a reason that the book did really well. [00:05:08] It wasn't just totally astroturfed by conservative ink, although it was. [00:05:13] But it had some good points. [00:05:18] But his main takeaway is well, we need to withdraw to intentional community, to intentional Christian community. [00:05:25] And I remember reading that, thinking, okay, cool, that's good. [00:05:28] That's stuff I want to do. [00:05:29] I want to build up my church and build up my community and have a strong local community. [00:05:36] But then what? [00:05:37] Now what do I do? [00:05:39] Now what do I do? [00:05:40] And is there anything else? [00:05:42] We just build our little Benedict option communities and hope that the United States federal government doesn't import 50,000 Afghans into wherever we're living. [00:05:54] It's like the Hobbit strategy. [00:05:57] Like, let's just stay in the Shire. [00:05:59] Just withdraw to the Shire. [00:06:00] Yeah. [00:06:00] But Sauron will get to the Shire eventually. [00:06:03] Yeah. [00:06:03] Yeah. [00:06:04] Well, exactly. [00:06:04] Exactly. [00:06:05] There will be no Shires. [00:06:06] And it's funny because I remember the controversy just a few months ago over your book, and all the people were like, oh, you just want to leave. [00:06:16] There it is. [00:06:16] Yeah. [00:06:16] Yeah. [00:06:17] You just want to leave California and go to Texas, and everybody will be safe there. [00:06:20] You're just doing this Benedict option thing, and you're just withdrawing, withdrawing, and surrendering. [00:06:24] And it's like, well, no, the point of withdrawing, I mean, it's just basic military strategy if you're cut off and outnumbered where you are, you can stay and be overrun and totally destroyed and lose all your men. [00:06:39] Or you could retreat to a position of strength and reconsolidate and build up your strength again to be able to go on a counterattack and fight back. [00:06:48] Yeah, my book was not an affirmation of quitting and surrender. [00:06:54] It was just a refuting of suicide. [00:06:58] Some Christians, in the name of missional living, it's really suicidal death. [00:07:07] Because for them, that is the goal. [00:07:09] The goal is to suffer. [00:07:11] To be persecuted. [00:07:13] Like the highest achievement that a Christian could have would be to be a martyr. [00:07:17] We lose down there. [00:07:18] We lose down there. [00:07:19] That is the goal. [00:07:20] And Jesus will come back relatively soon. [00:07:22] So in their mindset, it's like, it makes sense. [00:07:25] Like, you know, go to where the fire is the hottest and be faithful and get your butt kicked. [00:07:30] And the harder that you're getting beat, the more pleased that Jesus is. [00:07:35] Whereas, you know, so for them, they're like, you know, this is just surrender. [00:07:38] This is quitting. [00:07:40] Whereas for me, it's like, no, it's actually the opposite. [00:07:43] It's AD and I were talking, AD Robles, we were talking, and he said, One of the reasons people hate your book, Joel, is because it's not novel, it's very simple. [00:07:51] But one of the reasons they hate it is because if everybody actually followed that strategy, we might win down here. [00:07:59] We can't do that. [00:08:00] And if we won down here, then that would undermine the 50 year long ministry of a lot of guys who have been faithful in many ways, but like they would have to, a lot of these boomer Christians would have to give an example. [00:08:12] Account because they assured everyone the reason why we weren't winning more is because it was written in the stars. [00:08:17] It was ordained by God. [00:08:18] You can't. [00:08:19] You can't. [00:08:20] But if our generation, by the grace of God, actually pushes back and experiences victory, then in some way, we're not trying to breach the fifth commandment to honor our fathers, but in some way, it is an indictment on previous evangelical Christians that saying they could have done more, but they didn't. [00:08:34] So back to you. [00:08:35] Absolutely. [00:08:36] I mean, I think of the same thing. [00:08:38] You know, I've coached football and baseball before. [00:08:42] And You know, sometimes the teams are good, sometimes they're not good. [00:08:45] You know, it depends on the talent that you have. [00:08:48] And if you don't have a very talented team and you're losing a lot of games, like you can make a game plan to just lose respectably, right? [00:08:55] Right. [00:08:55] So, was that me? [00:08:56] Oh, no, that's me. [00:08:58] I'm sorry. [00:08:58] No worries. [00:08:59] Like you can make a game plan where it's like, ah, you know, I know we're not going to beat this other team, but if we at least score a couple touchdowns and only lose by 28 instead of 50, then you devise the game plan so you can maybe try to eke out a couple touchdowns, whereas you can. [00:09:17] You can devise a gameplay where maybe if it goes right, it might be close and there's a chance, you know, a long shot that you might win. [00:09:24] And I mean, the disparity is higher where if you follow that course, you could lose by 50. [00:09:31] Right. [00:09:31] And so it's kind of the same thing where it's like, well, you know, we can, we can, we're going to keep flowing away. [00:09:38] We're going to keep fighting and we're not going to look like we're surrendering. [00:09:43] And we might even have a couple of wins, you know, some long shot wins, like we sue the state of California and our church can stay open. [00:09:49] Right. [00:09:50] But yeah, it's great. [00:09:51] You know, yeah, absolutely. [00:09:52] No one was happier for, you know, MacArthur and those guys than me. [00:09:56] I'm like, great. [00:09:57] I wanted them to win. [00:10:00] But the overall strategy, otherwise, is losing by 50. [00:10:03] You know, it's like, it's not good. [00:10:06] So I think, yeah, I think AD is absolutely right that if the mindset is we lose, well, you're going to get what you're aiming for every time. [00:10:17] And so, you know, as far as my book goes, you know, the goal that I'm after. [00:10:23] Is it's less on the corporate strategy or the group strategy, like the Benedict option necessarily, but it's more digging in deeper on a sociological level of all the things that are wrong, all the ideas that are wrong, all the ways that we live. [00:10:43] I mean, I look at it and in mind when I'm writing it, I'm thinking about many of my Christian friends who go to your big box evangelical church. [00:10:54] And they haven't thought too deeply about really any of the things about how we live our life in year 2023. [00:11:05] And they're certainly not getting any teaching at these churches about the cultural changes that are occurring or anything, or any of the political changes or any of that. [00:11:15] Of course not. === Deep Meaning in Society (15:24) === [00:11:16] And so they're oblivious to the way things actually are. [00:11:21] And one of the things that I think rattled some people out of their slumber over the last year is. [00:11:27] Is the trans stuff, the trans agenda, especially in the schools and all of the trans stuff that's been pushed, the bathrooms, all of that kind of stuff, where people started going to school board meetings and things like this. [00:11:42] And people are shocked. [00:11:44] They can't believe this is happening. [00:11:45] It's like, well, something like this has been happening for the last 20 years in the schools. [00:11:49] It's just reached a further inflection point now. [00:11:54] But a lot of it is like they're oblivious to it. [00:11:56] They have no idea that things are this way. [00:11:59] And they also have no idea. [00:12:01] About how the way things used to be. [00:12:04] So before we went on air, we were talking about patriarchy and things like that. [00:12:10] And it's shocking to me. [00:12:12] I mean, maybe just because I'm an outlier, but because I have always had an interest in history. [00:12:20] But all human societies, Christian or non Christian, had a way of life where you had households, where you had a father leading a household and his wife submitting to him and his children submitting to him, and he's actively leading them. [00:12:37] That's just built into how everybody everywhere lived, other than a couple of random tribes in Papua New Guinea or something where they have a matriarchy that some anthropologists can point to. [00:12:47] But it's like 99.9% of all human history is this way. [00:12:52] It's like, wow, it's almost like God built it that way. [00:12:55] And so you begin discussing this and seeing this and thinking about this, what this looks like, and the changes that occurred in the 20th century where, okay, we're not in this patriarchal society. [00:13:06] Now we're in a society where. [00:13:08] Mom and dad are both expected to have careers. [00:13:11] And I mean, especially with the way the economic circumstances we're in now, even more so today, like you couldn't possibly get a house that you can buy unless you and your wife are both pulling in close to six figures. [00:13:25] Like it's an impossibility. [00:13:27] And so, you know, that's the world we have now. [00:13:31] And you tell people, well, there was another world that existed that wasn't like this at all, where a single man could provide for a household, right? [00:13:41] And he didn't have to be. [00:13:42] You know, a nuclear engineer or a lawyer or somebody, you know, very highly skilled and highly compensated, he could be a guy that worked in a factory. [00:13:49] Yeah. [00:13:50] You know, he could be a truck driver, he could be whatever and be able to provide for a family. [00:13:54] And, you know, it's like it blows people's eyes like that we had that that existed. [00:14:00] And so it's learning. [00:14:01] I mean, the first step is like being aware that there was another way to live and that's been stolen from you and taken away from you. [00:14:09] And you should try to, you know, cobble together, if you can, that life again. [00:14:16] Because it's good and it's the best way of life for you and for your wife, for your children. [00:14:21] And of course, not everybody's in a position where they can do that. [00:14:23] Not everybody is able to escape what I call in the book, a trash world, in the same way. [00:14:30] But you have to do whatever it is you can. [00:14:33] And so, I mean, it's so many of these things. [00:14:36] I mean, in the book, I have a chapter in there just about atomization and how I remember. [00:14:48] I don't know if we can use the word if this is on YouTube. [00:14:54] During that time, I don't know what they allow anymore or whatever. [00:14:59] But during that time, you saw that I think most people realized how alone they were and how few friends, how limited social interaction that's real beyond the workplace people have. [00:15:15] I mean, most people's lives is. [00:15:20] They wake up at five or six in the morning, go to their job, come back and play video games or watch TV, and then do the exact same thing all over again. [00:15:30] And then maybe on the weekend, they'll hang out with a couple of friends. [00:15:32] And that's their life. [00:15:33] That's all they have. [00:15:34] They don't have any extended network of friendship or people that they know. [00:15:39] They don't have 20 or 30 friends. [00:15:42] And several people, and there's all these sociological studies that there's a significant percentage of people that have zero friends. [00:15:49] Close friends at all in real life. [00:15:53] All of their interaction is online. [00:15:54] So you see, like during the lockdown, some people loved being locked down. [00:15:58] They thought it was great because they can live their lives inside of a pod and feel totally fulfilled. [00:16:08] But that's the state of life for many, many people, especially young people today, they're alone. [00:16:15] They don't have anybody. [00:16:16] They don't have anybody that loves them. [00:16:17] They don't have anybody that they can love. [00:16:20] Many of them don't have families in any real sense. [00:16:24] And And that's not by accident. [00:16:27] It's not, it didn't just like shake out this way randomly. [00:16:31] All of these things, all these bonds that God created us to have, have been ripped away from us. [00:16:38] And people who don't have those things, who don't have strong relationships, a local community, people nearby them that they know and love and care about, they're very easy to rule, right? [00:16:48] They're very easy to manipulate. [00:16:49] They're very easy to dominate. [00:16:51] And it's like, wow, I wonder if that's, you know, a design feature of the world that we live in. [00:16:56] Of course it is, you know, of course it is. [00:16:58] So, A lot of it is like just recognizing that this world is fake. [00:17:03] You know, I call it in the book fake and gay. [00:17:05] I mean, that's an internet jargon. [00:17:09] But I go into the book and explain that it's not just this sophomoric slur being used. [00:17:16] There's actually a deep meaning to it. [00:17:18] And you have to read the book to find out what I mean. [00:17:21] But it is this world that is not real. [00:17:26] It's a similarity. [00:17:27] You've explained fake, I think, pretty well. [00:17:29] Explain the gay part. [00:17:30] Because I know that it's a play on words, but it also has, you mean it. [00:17:34] It's a good word. [00:17:35] Yeah. [00:17:35] Explain it. [00:17:37] So part of it is there was the libertarian political philosopher, Hans Hermann Hoppe. [00:17:48] He used to have a position at UNLV and he was teaching there and he was explaining, he was just explaining in kind of detached economic terms that. [00:18:03] That homosexuals are high time preference people, right? [00:18:06] They don't have offspring and they, other than the ones they like buy. [00:18:11] And they, their lives are designed in such a way that they are on the forefront of their mind is what, whatever, you know, experience or pleasure, things that they want, they can have immediately, right? [00:18:27] So the high, they are not, you know, low time preference is good, high time preference is bad. [00:18:31] It's, you know, it's, it's, and so a consumerist society is built. [00:18:35] Along those same lines, where you want people to be as high type reference as possible, zero deferred gratification or delayed gratification whatsoever. [00:18:45] You want it now. [00:18:47] And so, in the book, I talk about Michel Foucault, the left wing philosopher, homosexual. [00:19:00] And he was told basically that he died of AIDS. [00:19:06] In the 80s. [00:19:07] And he's famous for, I don't want to get too graphic, but going to the bathhouses in San Francisco and so forth. [00:19:14] And it's very, very disgusting, filthy, dangerous, unhygienic places. [00:19:21] And told, like, well, if you keep doing this, you're going to die. [00:19:23] And I mean, he wrote in his book, you know, sex is more important to me than death. [00:19:30] Right. [00:19:31] And so, like, his entire lifestyle that he's built is I want this and I don't care if it kills me. [00:19:37] Right. [00:19:37] And so, the world that has been crafted and been socially engineered for us is for everyone. [00:19:46] Regardless of their sexual predilections or preferences, to be spiritually homosexual in that same way as Foucault, where I want the thing that I want right now, and I don't care if I die to get it. [00:20:00] I don't care if it ruins my life. [00:20:02] I want this thing right now. [00:20:03] And that's, I mean, you think about our society, it's very much like that. [00:20:07] I mean, it's this built in fixed feature almost of our society to be these apex consumerists. [00:20:16] To just want whatever we want. [00:20:18] I mean, you know, credit card debt in the United States just passed $1 trillion this last week, household credit card debt. [00:20:26] And it's like, that's by design. [00:20:28] They want people to be this way. [00:20:29] They want people to be massively in debt and then just wanting the next thing more stuff, more and more stuff, more vacations, more trips, more nice things. [00:20:37] I mean, that was the whole point of the ultimately, like the money that they handed out during COVID is go buy stuff now, you know, and people did. [00:20:48] So, anyway, when I use that phrase, it's not just this kind of childish pejorative. [00:20:54] It's that they want us to live like we are homosexuals, to have no family, to have no future, to have nothing on the horizon. [00:21:03] It's a good word. [00:21:04] Yeah, to live in a way that it's perverse, immediate gratification with no posterity, no legacy. [00:21:11] Yeah, it's a good word. [00:21:14] And where you're ultimately, it's also self love. [00:21:16] You're in love with yourself. [00:21:17] Yes, it's narcissistic. [00:21:19] Yeah, gay is a great word. [00:21:23] In addition, so it's a great word in terms of the way that you're used to it. [00:21:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:21:31] Let the listener understand. [00:21:32] Yeah. [00:21:33] Okay, so going back, you answered some of this, but I still feel like I want the listener to know a little bit more about Saint Benedict and Saint Boniface, like the actual guy. [00:21:44] So there's the Benedict option. [00:21:46] It was written, the book, it was written by Rod Dreer, and it was very much like retreat, have your enclave, your conservative thing. [00:21:53] And it's, hey, hobbits, it's Sam and Frodo. [00:21:56] We appreciate the effort, high five, you know, but go back to the Shire and live out the rest of your days, you know, and that'll work, you know, and wait for your generation, you know, your generation, you might, you know, you might be able to live out your days and then your children, you know, are dead and Sauron's, you know, Sauron's going to take everything over. [00:22:15] So that's the Benedict option. [00:22:16] But the Boniface option is it includes, and I think this might, you know, the listener might be surprised, but like your book, I think people were bothered because they thought my fight by flight, Was kind of like in the Benedict vein. [00:22:31] But I'm very much in agreement with you. [00:22:33] We're both post millennial, right? [00:22:34] You're post millennial? [00:22:35] Yes, I am. [00:22:36] We're both post millennial. [00:22:37] We both want to win. [00:22:38] But we also recognize that there are times for tactical, momentary retreats, but not for pleasure, not the gay option, not for just pleasure and our immediate, you know, but we retreat so that we might regroup so that eventually we would go back. [00:22:53] California will be a Christ exalting state. [00:22:57] One way or another, the entire United States of America could collapse, but that land and the people who inhabit it at some point will be worshipers of the triune God. [00:23:09] That's going to happen. [00:23:10] And I think that getting Christians out temporarily when you're outnumbered by a long shot to regroup, not have all your resources siphoned away and be able to leave an inheritance for your children should blah, blah, blah. [00:23:24] And also let some of the self collapsing, parasitic nature of California, like let California defeat itself a little bit and then go back when it's weaker. [00:23:35] When you're stronger, it's weaker and take over the land. [00:23:38] Finally, a coffee company that doesn't hate you and your beliefs. [00:23:42] Today's sponsor, Squirrely Joe's Coffee, is a thoroughly Christian company that ships seriously good coffee straight to your front door. [00:23:51] Owned and operated by Joe Morris and his family out of Olney, Illinois. [00:23:56] Joe also serves as a pastor of a small Reformed church. [00:23:59] They believe that Christians should be building a thoroughly Christian economy by doing business with other like minded Christians. 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[00:26:17] Roast fajitas and ground beef shipped free directly to your door. [00:26:23] Don't miss this chance to enter this incredible giveaway. [00:26:26] Just click the link in the description below to enter the giveaway. [00:26:31] Mercy Meadows Ranch is the best choice for Christian families who want to eat healthy and support Christians serving Christians. === Amazon Beef Giveaway (15:10) === [00:26:40] Saint Benedict, he was just kind of, Hey, let's do our thing. [00:26:43] Let's, but Saint Boniface, the actual man, what is significant about him, Andrew? [00:26:48] What did he do? [00:26:49] Yeah, so I go into it in the book a little bit about the story of St. Boniface. [00:26:55] And Boniface was actually a Benedictine monk. [00:27:00] So he was part of the order of Saint Benedict, and he was trained up in the monastery and was actually offered the choice to become the abbot of the monastery he was in in England. [00:27:12] And he chose against it. [00:27:14] He said, No, I want to go be a missionary to the peoples on the other side, on the north and east of the Rhine, on the border of what was then Christendom. [00:27:30] And especially, he's motivated because he's a Saxon. [00:27:34] And he, all of the people in Northwest, what's now Germany and Holland, they're Saxons as well. [00:27:44] So these are his kinsmen that don't know Christ, and he wants them to become Christian. [00:27:50] And so he left. [00:27:52] He's commissioned to go lead a mission there. [00:28:00] And he crosses the Rhine. [00:28:01] The first thing that he does, one of the first things, he did some missionary work for a A few years before this, but when he really began it outright, he identifies the major shrine of the German pagans called the Oak of Thor. [00:28:20] And the story goes that they believed that if anyone touched this tree, that Thor would strike him dead with a bolt of lightning. [00:28:32] And so he goes one day. [00:28:35] And tells them, you know, I'm going to come back tomorrow at midday. [00:28:41] And not only am I going to touch your tree, I'm going to cut it down. [00:28:47] And so word went out to all the villages nearby, and hundreds of people came the next day because they wanted to see this foolish Christian get fried. [00:28:57] And so St. Boniface took one swing of his axe, and then at least the legend goes that a wind came out of heaven and split the tree, knocked it over. [00:29:10] And all of the people that witnessed that day were baptized and became Christians. [00:29:16] And then he took the wood from the tree and built the first church in Germany out of it. [00:29:23] And so that story always really resonated with me. [00:29:27] I mean, it's an amazing story. [00:29:28] And later he continued his missionary work into old age and was martyred in Frisia by a band of Frisian robbers. [00:29:42] And they killed him. [00:29:43] And he actually, like, he held up his big Bible, and the Bible that he had is buried with him and has a big axe mark in it. [00:29:56] And I mean, even more like my paternal heritage comes from Frisia, from East Friesland. [00:30:05] And so it resonates with me even more that my people are the ones that martyred him. [00:30:10] And they all became Christians eventually because of his faithfulness. [00:30:16] So. [00:30:18] You know, it's an amazing story. [00:30:19] This is, I mean, this is, it's meaningful to me personally because this is where my people that I'm descended from were evangelized. [00:30:27] And, you know, and so as I'm seeing, you know, years ago, I'm seeing the Benedict option and people talking about it and thinking about it, thinking, well, I would much rather have people who have the same spirit as St. Boniface, where everything that I'm reading in this is, no, let's retreat, let's go back to the monastery. [00:30:49] And all of that is contingent. [00:30:50] I mean, the thing that Dreher doesn't talk about in the book is you can't have those monasteries where people are able to retreat and make copies of the Bible and make copies of great Western literature and preserving culture and so forth, which is important and good. [00:31:05] You can't have that unless there are very rugged men willing to do violence to protect you, which is what they had. [00:31:15] I mean, the Franks converted and became Christians, and they were brutal men. [00:31:22] And they fought and defended the monasteries. [00:31:25] There were outside political forces that used politics and used the sword to defend these men of God. [00:31:34] So it's like, well, you can't have the Benedict option unless there's somebody out there watching over these communities, at least temporally. [00:31:42] Some kind of Christian prince, huh? [00:31:45] Yeah, I know. [00:31:46] Yeah, exactly. [00:31:46] Exactly. [00:31:47] And so, how are we going to get that? [00:31:49] Like, where's that going to come from? [00:31:50] Who's going to make these guys? [00:31:52] And so that's the thing that hit me is like, well, we need people that are willing to fight, right? [00:31:57] We need people that want to stand up and say, this is wrong. [00:32:00] This is this. [00:32:01] I am not going to tolerate this. [00:32:03] I'm going to fight it. [00:32:06] And those are the people that I want to read my book. [00:32:09] Those are the people that I want to encourage. [00:32:10] Those are the people that I want to say, yes, you're right. [00:32:12] Don't let these people tell you that you're bad or wrong or not a good Christian if you say, this is evil and bad and I want to fight it, right? [00:32:20] That's the people I want reading my book and I want to be encouraged. [00:32:23] People that have that same spirit. [00:32:25] That I see this idol here and I'm going to go cut it down. [00:32:30] I'm not going to tolerate it at all. [00:32:32] I mean, it's this great testament. [00:32:33] It's like Elijah. [00:32:34] I mean, there's a lot of similarities to Elijah and Elisha, where they're fighting these evil idols that are around them that are set up. [00:32:48] And that's the kind of people we need to be today, right? [00:32:52] We're in it. [00:32:53] Dreer uses this term post Christian world. [00:32:56] I think it's more or less correct. [00:32:59] And And we need to recognize their reality and begin fighting back. [00:33:03] Begin saying, no, this is wrong. [00:33:05] Right? [00:33:05] When the drag show was going on in your community, like just nearby here, there was the young man in Wisconsin who went and preached the Bible and gets arrested for it. [00:33:13] We need more guys like that. [00:33:14] Like, that's a guy who has the thing that I'm talking about. [00:33:16] That's a guy who is like St. Boniface, sees this idol and preaches against it and is ready to bear the consequences for faithfulness. [00:33:26] Right? [00:33:26] Those are the kind of men we need. [00:33:28] Amen. [00:33:30] No, that's great. [00:33:31] I completely agree. [00:33:32] I would be of the Boniface persuasion. [00:33:34] I'm on your team. [00:33:35] Go fight, win. [00:33:37] Any other final thoughts from the book? [00:33:39] I know you don't want to give everything away. [00:33:40] You just released it real quick. [00:33:42] You might as well go ahead and plug the book. [00:33:44] Where can people get it? [00:33:46] Yeah. [00:33:46] So, right now, the only place that it's being sold is Amazon. [00:33:52] So, there's probably some people like, I don't want to use Amazon ever. [00:33:54] I hate Amazon. [00:33:56] So, if you are okay buying something for Amazon, get it there. [00:34:01] Otherwise, at the Gab. Store, there will eventually be copies that we'll be able to ship out from there as well if you want to go directly through Gab. [00:34:10] But if you want it right now, and I hope you do, you can go to Amazon and just type in the Boniface option. [00:34:16] You'll see it there. [00:34:16] There's a cover with St. Boniface chopping down a tree, and it's modernized. [00:34:22] There's pictures of all of our idols that we have in our day on the cover. [00:34:30] So I think. [00:34:30] Yeah, you shared the book cover with me. [00:34:32] I thought it was really insightful. [00:34:33] It's great. [00:34:34] Yeah, it was great. [00:34:35] There's a fellow, Emerson is his handle. [00:34:38] He illustrated it and he did an excellent job. [00:34:41] And it really conveys, I think, what we're going for for sure. [00:34:46] Yeah. [00:34:47] I will say this. [00:34:48] And when it comes to buying something off of Amazon, I think if you're going to compromise, books are worth the compromise because even though, yeah, it'd be better to get off of Gab, my book, you know, I encourage people to, you know, writeresponseministries.com. [00:35:01] You can buy the book there, it's cheaper off of our website. [00:35:04] But the one thing, though, about getting a book off of Amazon is it does help the rating of the book and it gets it out to more people because you can leave a review and the more books that sell that Amazon is tracking, you know, then the book climbs up the charts and more people see it. [00:35:18] And so, in that sense, you could think of it as an evangelistic. [00:35:22] Strategy that, okay, I'm not just feeding the beast, you know, like, yeah, so go and buy your groceries locally, you know, but maybe, maybe buy Andrew's book on Amazon. [00:35:30] Well, yeah. [00:35:31] And that, I mean, that's the thing too. [00:35:32] I've encouraged people that like they don't like when our books, you know, hit the list. [00:35:40] And like we just, there was one of these odious regime evangelicals, Andrew Whitehead, just published his book and we immediately passed that one up. [00:35:49] And we're about to pass up Russell Moore's book. [00:35:52] That he published. [00:35:53] And so, like, if you want to thumb your nose at those people, because they pay attention to this stuff. [00:35:58] So, if you want to make Russell Moore feel bad or Andrew Whitehead or any of these awful people, buy the book there and help it climb the chart so they can see that nobody cares what they think and they care what we think instead. [00:36:11] That's great. [00:36:12] All right. [00:36:13] Any other final words about the Boniface option, or even just, you know, aside from the book, just an encouragement to young men who maybe, you know, a lot of guys have probably just given up on the church. [00:36:23] I come across those guys all the Time through YouTube, they email me and they're just like, I can't find a church. [00:36:30] And if I do find a church, you know, it's just they hate men. [00:36:34] You know, like I'm constantly being despised. [00:36:37] They claim to be complimentary and they claim to, you know, to affirm male headship. [00:36:42] But when you really get down to it, like, what does male headship mean? [00:36:45] It just means that it means that you have zero authority in any functional, practical way and that you lay down all. [00:36:55] All of your rights and all of your this and all your that, not for the good of your wife and your children, but for your wife's fleshly preferences. [00:37:03] That's what it means to be complimentary. [00:37:05] And guys just know that. [00:37:06] That's why they're going to Andrew Tate. [00:37:07] That's why they're, you know, and I'm not saying that's right. [00:37:09] That's not a good option. [00:37:10] But one of the reasons I feel like, you know, we talked, you know, offline before we recorded, but like the Return of the Strong Gods is a book that has been helpful. [00:37:18] And these things are inevitable. [00:37:20] There's going to be the strong gods being, you know, like a return of patriarchy, tradition, religion, nationalism, a sense of, you know, pride for your nation. [00:37:30] Allegiances to your fatherland, those kinds of things are coming back. [00:37:34] And we're seeing the pendulum swing back from weak gods, which would be inclusivism, you know, and open mindedness and, you know, principled pluralism. [00:37:43] And all that, there's a swing back from that to these strong gods. [00:37:47] And patriarchy is one of the male headship, tight family that's led by a man who loves his wife, loves his children. [00:37:54] He's strong and he is in a position of leadership. [00:37:57] There is a return to that. [00:37:58] And my concern is that as our culture is shifting and it is happening. [00:38:04] As it shifts from these weak gods of egalitarian feminism, those kind of things, back to patriarchy, that there won't be over here. [00:38:11] It's not whether, but which. [00:38:13] Patriarchy is coming back. [00:38:14] So the question is, which kind of patriarchy? [00:38:17] And I'm concerned there's not a biblical option, that it's going to be the only patriarchal option that they'll find are going to be guys on the internet who are Muslim and who hate Christ or who are polygamous or who are promiscuous or whatever, because all the Christian guys who have the right theology for the most part, They're functionally egalitarian. [00:38:40] They're not, they're functionally egalitarian. [00:38:42] They're feminist. [00:38:43] And so, anyway, so all that being said, you know, there's guys, my point is there are guys who feel hopeless. [00:38:48] That's just one issue, the patriarchy issue. [00:38:50] But whether it be that or whatever it is, there are guys who feel like, you know, they've taken the red pill, their eyes are open, they see that the world is trash world, like what you're saying in the book. [00:39:01] But they feel like, you know, it's like Rohan, you know, it's just despair. [00:39:06] They're following up that red pill or at least very tempted to follow it up with a black pill. [00:39:10] So, what would you say to those young men? [00:39:14] Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of the book is like the first section, you know, six chapters. [00:39:21] And the first section of the book really is, you know, to use that internet lingo, you know, taking a red pill and being awakened to the way the world really is. [00:39:32] And then the final six chapters correspond to the first six. [00:39:36] And it's, you know, white pills, right? [00:39:39] Here's how you can win, right? [00:39:40] Here are the things that you can do to win down here. [00:39:44] And not just give everything away, not just lose, not surrender everywhere you go. [00:39:51] Because, yeah, like you said, I mean, these things, God made the world the way that He did. [00:39:57] And Trash World, we call it Globo Homo, or all the different phrases that we use for it. [00:40:07] It's fake, it's socially engineered, and it's like when my kids have a project or something and they glue together a bunch of popsicle sticks to make. [00:40:16] You know, some kind of structure like that's what it's rickety and built like that, and it's going to come crashing down. [00:40:23] And, like you said, there aren't Christians, not very many of them anyway, who are who see that for one, and then have any kind of Christian, uh, you know, faithful Christian response to all any and all of these issues, whether it is, uh, whether it's patriarchy or nationalism or anything else, um, or you know, right wing politics, things like that. [00:40:46] There's no There are very few Christians who are willing to say, okay, here's the way that God made the world. [00:40:52] Feminism is evil. [00:40:56] All the sexual degeneracy is evil. [00:40:58] All of the machinations of the globalist regime to destroy your country, those things are evil. [00:41:06] And here is how you personally can begin to fight back with your own life the things that you can personally do to make the world that you live in better. [00:41:18] Not just for yourself, but for the people around you, for your family, for your children, because I believe that we are going to win. [00:41:27] And it might be the kind of winning that will occur. [00:41:31] It might not happen in my lifetime. [00:41:32] I think it could. [00:41:33] It very well could happen in our lifetimes. [00:41:35] But I want to, at the very least, prepare my children after me to continue this fight, to continue this, to fight this world, see it for what it is, and build the things, build real things that matter in the world. === Encouraging the Next Generation (03:22) === [00:41:51] For people. [00:41:51] And so some of it is, yeah, I get the same emails, phone calls, texts, messages online from so many young guys. [00:42:00] Some of them aren't even Christians, but they want to be, right? [00:42:05] They want to find a church, they want to find a place. [00:42:07] And these churches, like yours, like mine, they exist, they're real, they're out there. [00:42:14] But there's not many of them, but when you find them and we can be part of a good community, Right, then that you need to just dive head first and be part of it and build things there. [00:42:25] Um, and I think that things like that will continue to grow. [00:42:28] There'll be more churches that are willing to stand up, that are willing to, you know, if I will, you know, take the Boniface option, be willing to chop down idols and tell the truth and be bold and say the things that need to be said. [00:42:41] Because the point, I mean, the point of the pulpit is to encourage the people of God, right? [00:42:46] To encourage the people of God in the lives that they're living every day. [00:42:50] And if they see this world burning down around them and all this destruction, all these horrible things, and they're not getting that, they're not being told, yeah, you're right, these things are bad. [00:42:59] And here's what Jesus has to say about that. [00:43:02] Here's what his word has to say about it. [00:43:03] Here's how you could be encouraged. [00:43:04] And here's the things you should be doing. [00:43:06] If you're not getting that, go somewhere where you do get it. [00:43:10] Not just online, not just from people like Nearchill, go physically to a place where that exists. [00:43:16] Because they're out there. [00:43:17] You can find them, but it's hard. [00:43:19] It takes work. [00:43:19] So many of the things in the book, the white pills, they don't go down easy. [00:43:23] They're hard, they're difficult. [00:43:25] There's a lot of sweat and blood and tears that you're going to, you know. [00:43:30] Uh shed, uh in order to, in order to build the things that need to be built, but but it's worth it. [00:43:35] It absolutely is. [00:43:36] And and so yeah read, read the book and leave a review, tell me, you know, find me on on twitter and on GAB and everywhere else, and tell me what you think, you know, if you've read it. [00:43:45] Uh, I really, I hope that it, I hope that it encourages, you know, especially young men. [00:43:50] Um, you know uh, that it it, it encourages them, it builds them up and and causes them to be willing and ready to fight and gives them, you know, gives them permission, not that they need it, But says, no, it's okay. [00:44:02] You're right to want to fight these things. [00:44:04] No, you're right. [00:44:05] And if people are telling you you're wrong, they're wrong. [00:44:07] You need to be willing to fight and be willing to say and do the things that are true. [00:44:13] And so, yeah, read the book. [00:44:15] I hope you like it. [00:44:16] I'm very excited. [00:44:17] It's been a lot of work to get out there. [00:44:20] And I hope it blesses a lot of people. [00:44:24] How many pages is it? [00:44:26] I think it's not long. [00:44:29] It's like 160, 140, or 160. [00:44:32] I can't remember the last typesetting that we did. [00:44:34] So it's not super long. [00:44:35] It's not four. [00:44:36] You know, I love Stephen. [00:44:37] Stephen's a friend of mine. [00:44:38] It's not 440 pages long with lots of footnotes. [00:44:42] That was a great read, but it's a little bit shorter than that. [00:44:48] So you can read it in a day if you really wanted to. [00:44:52] Awesome. [00:44:53] Well, thanks so much for coming on the show, Andrew. [00:44:55] I appreciate what you're doing. [00:44:57] I appreciate you sending me the book. [00:44:59] I started reading some of it today. [00:45:00] I plan to finish it. [00:45:01] And I'm excited to see how God uses it to encourage young men and young women that we could. [00:45:08] Continue to push forward the crown rights of King Jesus. [00:45:10] Thanks for coming on the show. [00:45:12] Amen. [00:45:12] Amen. [00:45:12] Thank you so much for having me.