NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Postmillennialism | Will Few Be Saved?
Aired: 2022-10-11
Duration: 01:07:47


=== Will Heaven Be More Populated (03:51) ===

[00:00:00]  Hey guys, real quick before we get started, I have a small request.
[00:00:03]  If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show, would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five star review?
[00:00:09]  This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do to ensure that this content gets out to as many people as possible.
[00:00:17]  Thanks.
[00:00:18]  All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:20]  I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
[00:00:23]  And in this episode, I was very privileged to have my friend Nathan Anderson.
[00:00:28]  Nathan Anderson is a A guy who does film.
[00:00:31]  He's made films primarily dealing with post millennial eschatology.
[00:00:35]  He has a film called On Earth as It Is in Heaven, and he has a docu series right now on the Lore platform called Teach All Nations.
[00:00:43]  We talk in the beginning of the episode a little bit about his career in film and about post millennialism in general.
[00:00:49]  But if you want to skip to the meat of this episode, go ahead and just skip to about 10 or 12 minutes in where we focus our attention not just on post millennial eschatology in general, but one specific question Will there be more people in heaven?
[00:01:04]  At the end of the age, or will there be more people in hell?
[00:01:07]  And we argue for the former that there will actually be more people in heaven, that Christ is going to save more people than those who are lost.
[00:01:18]  If you had pressed on me even just a few years ago, not only would I have said that more people will be in hell than heaven, I would have said most people will be in hell.
[00:01:26]  I would have said that at the end of the age, when Christ returns, that the vast majority of heaven will, or the vast majority of humanity.
[00:01:34]  Will be in hell, that hell will be 10 times the population of heaven, 100 times the population of heaven.
[00:01:40]  And I do not believe that any longer.
[00:01:43]  And I'm going to use with Nathan Anderson the scripture, not just wishful thinking, not just a biased hashtag that post meal position, but actually the Bible, the Bible to convince you, the listener, that heaven is going to be more populated than hell, that Christ is going to be victorious even in the number of people that he saves.
[00:02:08]  Tune in now.
[00:02:09]  Wait, Hold it.
[00:02:11]  Big announcement, a scary announcement, a threat, but also a promise.
[00:02:16]  The price of our conference, the Post Millennial and Theonomy Conference, it's going up.
[00:02:21]  It's going up right after Reformation Day.
[00:02:23]  We are going to hold the price at $100, which is super cheap for a three day conference with Dr. James White, Dr. Joseph Boot, Dr. Gary DeMar, and the guy who's not a doctor.
[00:02:33]  So we'll say Pastor Joel Webbin.
[00:02:35]  We've got a great conference May 5th, 6th, and 7th in Georgetown, Texas, just north of Austin, for $100.
[00:02:42]  Super cheap, but we can't hold that price forever.
[00:02:46]  So if you want to get into that price, you got to get in now, right after Reformation Day, not Halloween, Reformation Day, October 31st.
[00:02:53]  That's the last day that you can get in this conference, register at the price of a hundred bucks.
[00:02:58]  After that, starting November 1st, it's going to be a hundred and thirty.
[00:03:02]  So go to rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com, and register today.
[00:03:09]  Thanks.
[00:03:10]  Applying God's word to every aspect of life.
[00:03:13]  This is Theology Applied.
[00:03:21]  All right, so welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:03:23]  I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and I have Nathan Anderson.
[00:03:28]  Most notably, at least for myself personally, you are the director and probably a bunch of other director, producer, star, the whole nine yards for On Earth as It Is in Heaven, which was a post mill documentary, made a great case for post millennial eschatology with Doug Wilson.
[00:03:46]  Kenneth Gentry and a couple other guys that were main guys that you were interviewing in that.

=== The Beta Stage of Postmillennial Lore (05:02) ===

[00:03:51]  And you've also recently done a docu series, multiple episodes, that's right now exclusive on lore.
[00:03:58]  And I believe they're still in their beta testing right now, but that's called Teach All Nations.
[00:04:04]  And the biggest star that you got for that was yours truly, myself.
[00:04:06]  No, I'm just kidding.
[00:04:08]  But you got multiple guys, and I was one of them.
[00:04:09]  So, all right, no more further ado.
[00:04:11]  Nathan, tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, film, post mill, all that kind of stuff.
[00:04:17]  Yeah, thanks, Joel.
[00:04:18]  Thanks for having me on the show.
[00:04:20]  So, yeah, I'm a filmmaker based out of Chile, South America, a little coastal town called Pichilemu.
[00:04:27]  Live here with my family and, um, We serve also at our local church.
[00:04:32]  I serve as an elder at our local church here in town and make films.
[00:04:38]  That's what I've been mostly up to these days.
[00:04:41]  That's awesome.
[00:04:41]  Tell us a little bit about Teach All Nations, the docu series.
[00:04:44]  Like, how can somebody watch it right now?
[00:04:46]  If they can't, when will they be able to watch it?
[00:04:48]  Tell us, and what was your aim?
[00:04:51]  What was your goal in that series?
[00:04:53]  So, my goal with Teach All Nations was a follow up to my first film, which is On Earth as It Is in Heaven.
[00:05:01]  That film was kind of presenting the post millennial perspective, basically.
[00:05:05]  And this film was a little focused in digging into more of the practical implications of post millennialism in terms of Christian worldview and how that affects, you know, how we live our lives ultimately.
[00:05:20]  If we think that we still have a long way to go and we start thinking in a multi generational fashion, how is that going to affect?
[00:05:31]  How we view our families, how we view economics, how we view just these different areas of life.
[00:05:38]  And so, what I tried to do in Teach All Nations was just kind of have an introduction to a lot of those different practical applications of a Christian world and life view, considering this long term post millennial covenantal perspective.
[00:05:56]  Gotcha.
[00:05:57]  Yeah, that's kind of what I took away in watching.
[00:05:59]  I watched, I think, three times, my wife and I.
[00:06:01]  She couldn't hang all three times.
[00:06:03]  She was like, all right, that's enough, Joel, turn it off, you know.
[00:06:06]  But I watched three times, you know, the full length film on earth as it is in heaven.
[00:06:12]  And that was kind of like a case for post mill.
[00:06:14]  And then it seems like teach all nations was like, okay, now if post mill, then what?
[00:06:20]  You know, how like kind of like the Schaefer, you know, Francis Schaefer, how then should we live or how should we then live?
[00:06:25]  I was getting backwards or he might have done both.
[00:06:28]  Which one is it?
[00:06:29]  How should we then live or how should we?
[00:06:32]  I think it's how then shall we live.
[00:06:34]  How then shall we live?
[00:06:35]  It might not.
[00:06:36]  I don't know.
[00:06:37]  Yeah, you might be right.
[00:06:38]  We, yeah, our listeners get the point.
[00:06:41]  So basically, like, if this is true, what are the takeaways?
[00:06:45]  And it seems like that's what the docuseries is.
[00:06:47]  And you said it's on lore right now, exclusively, right?
[00:06:50]  Yeah, so it's exclusively on lore.
[00:06:53]  Right now, you can be a part of the lore, kind of the beta stage, you know.
[00:06:58]  So you can actually, through lore, get a link to sign up for free right now and watch all five episodes of Teach All Nations.
[00:07:09]  And there's another show on there called Dark Holler as well that you can watch if you're a Lure Beta user.
[00:07:15]  So for now, it's free.
[00:07:16]  At some point, you know, they're going to have a paid subscription.
[00:07:19]  But yeah, if you guys want that, want to be on that, there's a link, you know, you guys can sign up.
[00:07:28]  Cool.
[00:07:28]  And we'll try to get that to you.
[00:07:30]  Great.
[00:07:30]  And then who are some of the guys?
[00:07:32]  Who are the main four?
[00:07:33]  So it was Doug Wilson, Kenneth Gentry, and then who are the two other guys in the first film, On Earth as it is in Heaven?
[00:07:39]  So the first film, it was.
[00:07:43]  Yeah, it was Doug Wilson, Ken Gentry, Steve Gregg, and Bruce Gore.
[00:07:49]  Okay.
[00:07:49]  Those were the four guys that I interviewed.
[00:07:52]  And then who are some of the guys with Teach All Nations?
[00:07:55]  Did you get Doug Wilson again?
[00:07:56]  Did you get Jeff Doe?
[00:07:57]  Yeah.
[00:07:58]  So I interviewed, yeah, I interviewed, wow, I did 17 interviews total for the second movie.
[00:08:06]  So I did a lot of interviews that time around for sure.
[00:08:10]  Also, partly because I went to the conference, the Fight La Feast conference at the time.
[00:08:15]  And so a lot of the, I had more interviews, but some of them were shorter, right?
[00:08:20]  So there were some 30 minute interviews and stuff like that.
[00:08:24]  But yeah, no, I got to interview Dr. Gary North, Dr. Dr. George Grant, Jeff Durbin, Pastor Doug Wilson, James White.
[00:08:37]  I got interviewed, Dr. James White, Andrew Sandlin.
[00:08:44]  I got to interview a lot of great guys during that project.
[00:08:49]  Awesome.
[00:08:50]  All right.
[00:08:50]  Well, let's go ahead and just jump right in.
[00:08:53]  So here we go.

=== Countering the Few Saved View (08:19) ===

[00:08:54]  I'm just going to ask a yes or no question.
[00:08:56]  At the end of the age, when it's all said and done, after Jesus' final return, will there be more people in heaven?
[00:09:03]  Or will there be more people in hell?
[00:09:07]  That's the million dollar question, isn't it?
[00:09:11]  I said yes or no, but then I actually phrased the question in a way that it's not yes or no.
[00:09:15]  Heaven or hell?
[00:09:16]  What's going to have the bigger population?
[00:09:18]  Heaven or hell?
[00:09:19]  What do you think?
[00:09:20]  Well, if you ask most evangelicals these days, they'll probably say, you know, hell.
[00:09:27]  Or they'll say, I don't know.
[00:09:29]  That's, you know, that's above my pay grade.
[00:09:31]  You know, I don't want to think about that or get into that.
[00:09:35]  But usually those that, you know, Are willing to give an answer, would probably say, I mean, obviously, there's going to be more people in hell.
[00:09:44]  You know, I mean, we look through history and most people aren't Christians, right?
[00:09:50]  Most people aren't following Christ.
[00:09:51]  And so, if that, you know, pattern is what we are to expect, then we have no reason to believe otherwise, right?
[00:10:03]  And they would even point to certain biblical passages, you know, narrows the way.
[00:10:08]  You know, they say, few are.
[00:10:10]  Are they that find it?
[00:10:13]  And so there is this whole idea that a lot of people have that the Bible actually teaches that, you know, few people will be saved, most people will be lost.
[00:10:23]  And that's kind of, you know, that's just pretty fundamental to a lot of people's thinking.
[00:10:33]  And so then they hear something like post mill, you know, like the perspective that, oh, well, we believe that in the future, right?
[00:10:43]  You know, there's going to be more people saved, and that the, you know, actually the nations are going to become Christian.
[00:10:49]  And, you know, there's just going to be this, this just amazing extended period of blessing on the earth.
[00:10:59]  And they hear that, and that just breaks with a lot of that paradigm.
[00:11:03]  And so a lot of times they just say, well, you know, post, therefore post millennialism is wrong because it conflicts with this other paradigm I have, you know.
[00:11:15]  And, you know, they'll say something like, you know, if they're, you know, a bit more sophisticated in their response, they'll say, you know, you have an over realized eschatology or something like that.
[00:11:31]  And so, yeah, that's why this question becomes, I think, pretty interesting and pretty important to consider.
[00:11:40]  You know, does the Bible really teach that more people will be lost than those that will be saved?
[00:11:48]  Ultimately.
[00:11:48]  And I'm, you know, as a post millennialist, I think the answer to that question is no.
[00:11:55]  There will be more people saved than lost, you know, when, because, you know, the Westminster Confession of Faith teaches, for example, that the number of the elect is fixed.
[00:12:09]  So there's a number.
[00:12:10]  You know, we don't know the number, but there is a number, and that number is fixed.
[00:12:15]  And once everybody's been born that's going to be born, Right.
[00:12:20]  Um, there that number's not going to shift basically.
[00:12:24]  And, and so it's not like, you know, it's not like we think that there's going to be future generations in eternity or, or something like that.
[00:12:33]  Right.
[00:12:33]  So there's a, there's a, there's a cutoff point in terms of X amount of humans are going to be born throughout history.
[00:12:42]  And some of those are going to be saved, some of those are going to be lost.
[00:12:45]  And so that's, you know, that's basically how we, uh, Begin to consider this question ultimately.
[00:12:53]  And whatever that number is, according to Revelation, that's a number that no man can count.
[00:12:58]  So, okay, so playing the devil's advocate, getting into some of the scripture that people would use, because a lot of people, I know what you're saying and I agree with what you're saying, but people would say, No, it's not my paradigm, Nathan.
[00:13:12]  It's what the Bible plainly teaches.
[00:13:14]  It's right here, Matthew 7, verse 13 and 14.
[00:13:17]  Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are Many.
[00:13:25]  For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[00:13:33]  Right there.
[00:13:33]  There it is, black and white.
[00:13:34]  Few are going to be able to find this narrow gate and the way that leads to life, that is hard.
[00:13:42]  It's a difficult way and it leads to life.
[00:13:45]  But to the contrary, there are going to be many who go on this easy way, this broad path, this wide gate.
[00:13:55]  That leads to destruction.
[00:13:56]  This is from what I've heard from people and what I used to quote myself when I thought that hell would be far more populated than heaven.
[00:14:05]  This is what I would point to.
[00:14:07]  And just for the record, I never put a number on it, and I don't really know anybody who does.
[00:14:11]  I'm sure there's a few wackos out there, but nobody's really saying, like, this exact number is going to hell and this exact number is going to heaven.
[00:14:18]  And nobody's doing that on the post mill side.
[00:14:20]  Nobody's doing that on pre mill and all mill side.
[00:14:23]  But if you had pressed me and said, okay, well, You know, in terms of percentages, Joel, you think there's going to be more people in hell.
[00:14:31]  Do you think like more people like 51% versus 49%?
[00:14:35]  And I would have said, no, I think more like 80% versus 20% or 90% versus 10%.
[00:14:41]  Like, not just like hell is slightly more populated than heaven, but that hell has like close to 10 times the population of heaven, maybe even more.
[00:14:53]  Maybe heaven is 100th of the population.
[00:14:57]  Of hell, and I would have hung my hat on the text I just read, Matthew chapter 7, verse 13 and 14.
[00:15:04]  I have some ways to counter that now from the scripture, and not just anybody, again, playing the devil's advocate.
[00:15:10]  If somebody says, Well, Nathan's sitting here, he's quoting the Westminster Confession, the man made document, well, the Westminster Confession is authoritative.
[00:15:19]  It's not the final arbiter of all truth, but it is an authority.
[00:15:23]  But we have scripture to debate this, but I want to give you the first swing at it, Nathan.
[00:15:27]  What would you?
[00:15:29]  What would you say to somebody who's quoting Matthew 7 13 and 14 as their quintessential proof text that hell's going to have way more people than heaven?
[00:15:39]  Yeah, yeah, definitely.
[00:15:41]  Just to emphasize your point for a second, though, that we're not debating, for example, like, you know, is 9% of all humanity or 7% of all humanity going to end up in heaven, right?
[00:15:57]  You know, that's not the, it's not just this minuscule little difference here.
[00:16:03]  Like, what we're talking about is much larger scale.
[00:16:08]  Because, you know, really what people are saying, and a lot of times I think people don't even realize, you know, that they believe this, but then when you lay it out, they're like, oh, yeah, I guess I do believe.
[00:16:19]  Like, they really do believe that, you know, a minuscule percentage, if they had to put a number, a minuscule percentage of the population is going to end up in heaven.
[00:16:27]  Right.
[00:16:27]  They don't believe more people will be in hell.
[00:16:28]  They believe most people will be.
[00:16:31]  Yeah.
[00:16:31]  It's not like, you know, debating 54% versus 52% or something like that.
[00:16:37]  Like, this is.
[00:16:38]  We're not nitpicking here.
[00:16:40]  It's a much larger scale issue.
[00:16:44]  But when we look at passages like the one you mentioned in Matthew 7, the question we have to ask ourselves is in the context, is Jesus giving this rule or general view for all of human history, right?
[00:17:04]  Basically, as to how many are saved and how many are lost.
[00:17:10]  Right.
[00:17:11]  In that sense, is that the way we're supposed to take that text?

=== Luke 13 and the Many Nations (15:33) ===

[00:17:14]  Right.
[00:17:14]  Is this a prophetic prediction for all people in all places in all time?
[00:17:18]  Or back to you.
[00:17:20]  Yeah.
[00:17:21]  Or is he speaking specifically to the audience that he was speaking to?
[00:17:27]  You know, is there something specific in that context that is, you know, applies to what he's saying in this text?
[00:17:36]  Right.
[00:17:37]  And I've come to the conclusion, as many others, that he is speaking of that generation.
[00:17:45]  And that we're listening to him speak.
[00:17:49]  Ultimately, the question is of that generation, are many going to be saved or are most going to be lost?
[00:17:55]  And he basically says that most are going to be lost.
[00:17:58]  And that's what happened.
[00:18:00]  I mean, most of the Jews rejected Jesus in that generation.
[00:18:05]  There were some, like Paul says in Romans 11.
[00:18:09]  It's not that he says, I'm a Jew, and he talks about the fact that there is a remnant, right?
[00:18:16]  And it's actually very interesting that the only context the New Testament, as far as I can tell, uses the term remnant applied in the New Testament, he's talking about Jewish believers.
[00:18:28]  It's not talking about the church in general, right?
[00:18:31]  And so he doesn't use that language of the church necessarily.
[00:18:36]  He uses it of a group within the church, which is these Jewish believers.
[00:18:41]  Most of the Jews rejected Jesus, but this remnant, including Paul, Didn't reject the Messiah ultimately.
[00:18:50]  And so I think that is what is being spoken of.
[00:18:54]  Now, someone could say, okay, well, that's convenient, you know.
[00:19:00]  So it's just talking about the first century or whatever.
[00:19:04]  But I think when we actually look at some of the other places where Jesus uses this language, it can be very helpful when we cross reference, you know, Matthew 7, for example, with Luke chapter 13.
[00:19:18]  Right, where it talks about, you know, the narrow door.
[00:19:22]  And, you know, in Luke 13 23, someone asked Jesus, Lord, will those who are saved be few?
[00:19:29]  Right.
[00:19:30]  And he uses almost, you know, very similar language strive to enter the narrow door.
[00:19:34]  You know, for many, I tell you, we'll see.
[00:19:36]  But it's interesting when you come on down to verse 26, he's talking about, you know, the people that are knocking on the door, trying to get let in.
[00:19:48]  Right.
[00:19:49]  And yeah, and the master, you know, closes the door.
[00:19:51]  And what do they say?
[00:19:52]  They say in verse 26, then they will begin to say, We ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets.
[00:20:00]  Right.
[00:20:01]  Right.
[00:20:02]  That's talking about people in 2022 in America, right?
[00:20:05]  Right.
[00:20:06]  Yeah.
[00:20:06]  We all, we've all, Yeah, I saw Jesus just yesterday.
[00:20:10]  He was in the street and we ate and we drank it.
[00:20:15]  Obviously, I'm being facetious and borderline blasphemous, so I apologize.
[00:20:19]  I need to back up a little bit.
[00:20:21]  But that's what I wish people understood in their hermeneutic that when we read scripture, all scripture is for us, not all scripture is directly to us.
[00:20:29]  All scripture is for us, but it's not all to us in the sense that we are not in America or in Chile in the year of our Lord 2022, we are not the immediate audience.
[00:20:41]  That Jesus is speaking to.
[00:20:43]  He is speaking for our benefit.
[00:20:45]  The word of God is still, it's inerrant, it's infallible, it's sufficient, and it's for us.
[00:20:52]  But it's not directly, this text is not directly to us.
[00:20:55]  It tells us who his immediate audience is.
[00:20:58]  It's the people who are in his presence, who ate and drank in your presence and taught, Jesus taught in their streets.
[00:21:05]  So I 100% agree.
[00:21:06]  Go on, I'm sorry.
[00:21:07]  Right, yeah.
[00:21:08]  And so I believe this really clears that up.
[00:21:13]  To a certain extent, as to say, oh, wow, okay, so he's talking about people that ate and drank with him, that actually physically saw him preaching in their streets.
[00:21:23]  That's not talking about our day.
[00:21:24]  That's talking about something that happened 2,000 years ago.
[00:21:30]  And so, obviously, if that's the case, it does not apply directly to us.
[00:21:35]  I mean, maybe someone could say, well, yeah, it applied to them, but he's also speaking of this general rule.
[00:21:41]  But then you'd have to, You know, figure out where this general rule comes from because you're not going to get it from these texts, right?
[00:21:48]  So you have to go somewhere else to establish that.
[00:21:52]  But then there's something else that's even more interesting here is when you, you know, it talks about in verse 28, you know, these people, you know, go into a place with weeping, gnashing of teeth, you know, and it says, you will see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves cast out.
[00:22:13]  But then look at what it says in verse 29.
[00:22:15]  It says, and the people will come, sorry, and people will come from the east, the west, the north, the south, and recline at the table in the kingdom of God.
[00:22:26]  And so it talks about another group of people, right?
[00:22:29]  Right.
[00:22:29]  So this first group of people, you know, for the most part, will end up in a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, and they won't be with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God.
[00:22:41]  But this other group of people will.
[00:22:44]  Recline at the table of the kingdom of God, and these people will come from the east, west, north, south.
[00:22:49]  But then we go back to Matthew and we go to Matthew chapter eight, right?
[00:22:54]  And um, yeah, I think it's chapter eight with the story of the yeah, we're the story of the centurion.
[00:23:03]  And you, Jesus uses almost identical language here, he says, I tell you, many will come from the east, west, and recline at the table with Abraham.
[00:23:12]  So, notice, notice the slight difference there.
[00:23:16]  Luke just says people will come, but here it says many will come, right?
[00:23:21]  And so here we're told that.
[00:23:23]  Which verse is that, Rickley?
[00:23:24]  That's Matthew 8, verse what?
[00:23:27]  Verse 11.
[00:23:28]  Matthew 8, 11.
[00:23:30]  And then it says in verse 8, 12, it says, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, right?
[00:23:38]  A place where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[00:23:40]  So again, we have this contrast, as in Luke 13, we have this contrast between, right, the Jews who, for the most part, reject Jesus in that generation and are thrown into outer darkness.
[00:23:54]  And then this multitude that comes from, you know, the east, the west, the north, the south, and, and, Comes into the kingdom of God.
[00:24:04]  And so that's what's being taught here.
[00:24:07]  It's not this general rule that, oh, just for all of history, most people are going to reject the Messiah.
[00:24:16]  Most people are going to end up in hell.
[00:24:19]  No, what's being taught is that in that generation, unfortunately, most people rejected Jesus.
[00:24:25]  But after that generation is judged, and they were judged, right, in 70 AD and all that, then the gospel goes out and really.
[00:24:36]  You know, changes the world.
[00:24:38]  Right.
[00:24:38]  And all the nations flow in to the kingdom of God.
[00:24:42]  Amen.
[00:24:44]  Another thing that's interesting Luke chapter 13.
[00:24:46]  So, like, you were picking up with verse 23.
[00:24:50]  So, Luke 13, starting verse 23, someone asked him, right, just explicitly, you know, asking, will those who are saved be few?
[00:24:57]  Right.
[00:24:57]  And, you know, and it's that same language that we found in Matthew chapter 7, verse 13 and 14 strive to enter through the narrow gate, you know, but then it culminates in verse 26 by specifically saying, you know, that the people who are, are, Cast out where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[00:25:13]  They're the people that Jesus, you know, one of their claims that they deserve salvation, that they have a right to Jesus, is that we ate and drank in your presence and you taught in our streets, right?
[00:25:25]  So you covered all that.
[00:25:26]  And then it goes down to, you know, verse 29, but people will come.
[00:25:30]  And then we cross reference over to Matthew chapter 8, that it's not just people, but many, many will come from east and west.
[00:25:36]  And so the sons of the kingdom, the Jews of that generation, Not all of them, but the Jews of Jesus' generation.
[00:25:44]  So it's not even just that time, but that particular place and a particular kind of person in that particular place at that particular time, the majority of them rejected Christ, right?
[00:25:54]  He came to his own, but they received him not.
[00:25:57]  But then by contrast, from the east and the west, all these Gentile nations are flowing to him, and it's, you know, people are coming.
[00:26:03]  That's verse 29 in Luke 13.
[00:26:05]  But then, like you said, cross referencing to Matthew chapter 8, it's not just people, but it's many.
[00:26:10]  One other thing I wanted to point out in the beginning of Luke chapter 13, Not the very beginning of the chapter, but before getting to verse 23, where they ask, Will those who are saved be few?
[00:26:21]  If we back up to verse 18, so just a few verses before, here's the context leading into that question Will those who are saved be few?
[00:26:30]  At least the context as Luke, the human author, inspired by the Spirit, writes it down.
[00:26:36]  Luke finds it pertinent to mention this in verse 18 as he's setting this framework.
[00:26:42]  He says, He said, therefore, What is the kingdom of God like?
[00:26:48]  And to what shall I compare it?
[00:26:50]  It is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his garden, and it grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made their nest in its branches.
[00:27:01]  And again, verse 20 now, he said, To what shall I compare the kingdom of God?
[00:27:05]  It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour until it was all leavened.
[00:27:12]  And so that's the context.
[00:27:16]  Jesus is describing the nature.
[00:27:18]  And in describing the nature, I don't think it's merely the nature, but I think it also includes the scope of the kingdom of God.
[00:27:25]  That it is something that, like a little bit of leaven, it's worked in, it's gradual, right?
[00:27:31]  It starts small, grows slowly, but becomes significant.
[00:27:36]  In fact, according to what Jesus is saying here, the way he's describing it, it's not just significant, but it becomes all encompassing.
[00:27:43]  That the leaven leavens all of the whole batch of Of dough, you know, and this mustard seed, you know, this tree, it's a great tree.
[00:27:52]  And so, you know, and then we have like Daniel chapter two, right?
[00:27:55]  This stone cut with no human hands that shatters the kingdoms of this world, but then replaces the kingdoms of this world and grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth.
[00:28:05]  So that's the framework, is Jesus describing the nature and scope of the kingdom of God, which is it starts small, it grows slowly, but it becomes a significant, overwhelming, massive force.
[00:28:19]  And then Then comes the question in verse 23 of Luke chapter 13: Will those who are saved be few?
[00:28:27]  And you're absolutely right.
[00:28:28]  Like Jesus, his answer, if we were to give a synopsis, if we were to make it more concise, his answer is: Yes, those who are saved are going to be few as it pertains to you guys right here asking me the question.
[00:28:48]  There will be few of you saved because of hardness of heart, because of unbelief, because I came to my own and they received me not.
[00:29:00]  But then he goes on and makes it really clear that, but he's not saying that the number of the saved will be few throughout all of human history in all places and all times by saying many will come from east and west.
[00:29:16]  So it's, anyway, so I just say all that to say I agree with you.
[00:29:20]  And I think that Matthew 7, if we take Matthew 7, 13 and 14 That everyone, that's like the proof text that I used to use.
[00:29:26]  Everybody uses to say not just that hell will slightly be overpopulated from heaven, 51 versus 49 percent, but that most people will say, if you press them, they'll say, Yeah, hell will be far more populated than heaven.
[00:29:41]  Heaven will be a sliver of humanity.
[00:29:43]  That's the proof text, Matthew chapter 7, 13 and 14.
[00:29:46]  And all you have to do is just pan out from Matthew 7, 13 and 14, look at Luke 13, cross referencing, same language.
[00:29:53]  And then also look from Luke 13 and pan out and cross reference back to Matthew chapter 8, verse 11.
[00:30:00]  And when you take all that into context with, I think, faithful hermeneutics and reading the scripture, it seems like the answer is clear.
[00:30:08]  Jesus is not saying few will be saved as a prophetic prediction for all places in all time.
[00:30:16]  He's speaking to that people in that generation in that place.
[00:30:22]  And the main point that he has in Matthew 7 13 and 14 is not about.
[00:30:27]  Few versus many, but it seems like the main point that he's making is about the difficulty of the way that leads to eternal life.
[00:30:35]  He's saying it's narrow, it's difficult, few ever find it.
[00:30:40]  I don't think that the emphasis is in numbers.
[00:30:43]  I think the emphasis, if anything, is in difficulty.
[00:30:46]  There's one way that is broad and easy, but there's this other way that is narrow and hard and difficult.
[00:30:54]  Any further thoughts on that?
[00:30:56]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:56]  And well, just to connect with what you were saying about the.
[00:31:01]  The parable of the mustard seed and how that connects to all this.
[00:31:06]  Because what we learn from that is that the kingdom of God grows slowly, right?
[00:31:14]  Like a mustard seed, and it grows progressively in history, right?
[00:31:19]  Because obviously, you know, if you planted a seed tomorrow and you took a lawn chair, you know, and sat outside to watch it grow, you know, that's going to be a pretty boring afternoon.
[00:31:32]  You know, you're not going to see much.
[00:31:34]  And that's the way the kingdom of God grows, it grows slowly, sometimes even imperceptibly.
[00:31:39]  Right, um, in that sense, and so what we are seeing throughout history is this progressive advance of the kingdom.
[00:31:50]  Now, obviously, and this is an important point if Christ returned tomorrow, right, if Christ returned tomorrow, um, we would have to conclude that most people in history are going to end up in hell, right?
[00:32:05]  Because when we look back from this point at human history, um, throughout all generations.
[00:32:13]  As far as we can tell, you know, most people have not followed Yahweh.
[00:32:18]  Most people have not been Christians.
[00:32:21]  Most people have not followed Christ.
[00:32:23]  And so, from that perspective, you know, if Christ returned tomorrow, then yeah, most people would be lost.
[00:32:32]  But if we understand that this is something that's happening progressively in history, and we understand that if more are going to be saved than lost, then most of the elect are still not yet born.
[00:32:46]  Right.

=== Why We Are Not in the Last Days (02:28) ===

[00:32:47]  Right.
[00:32:47]  And that's an important point that there's still greater things in the future of the church than have been in the present and have occurred in the past.
[00:32:58]  Then we understand that the scope of the work that Christ is accomplishing, his work of redemption, is a lot more massive than most people consider.
[00:33:11]  Right.
[00:33:12]  Because most people consider, you know, and think, well, we're probably living, you know, in the last days.
[00:33:17]  You know, we're probably, you know, Christ is probably about to.
[00:33:20]  Return it at any moment.
[00:33:23]  When actually, it's a lot more probable we're living in the early church.
[00:33:29]  And that actually, there's more and greater things ahead of us than behind us at this point, which is strange for a lot of people to consider because, again, it goes against just certain paradigms that many have embraced along those lines.
[00:33:48]  Yeah, no, that's an important point because I think some people think that post millennials are lowering the bar for salvation.
[00:33:56]  Right, that like, like, that basically, like, post millennials, like, if you think more people are going to be saved than lost, then you must be counting all the members at Joel Osteen's church.
[00:34:03]  And so, I'll just take a moment and pause here and just remind the listener that, um, you know, I'm post millennial, but I'm also, um, a Calvinist through and through.
[00:34:13]  Like, I'm the type of guy who, uh, enjoys hearing a sermon from Doug Wilson and also really enjoys hearing, um, a sermon from Paul Washer.
[00:34:22]  Um, you know, so, like, like, we're not lowering the bar and saying, you know, that we think a lot of people are going to be in heaven because, uh, it's Don't really take that much to be saved, and you can have this mediocre, you know, Christian, you know, light, you know, fake salvation, and you can accept a prosperity gospel and that'll be sufficient.
[00:34:40]  And no, we're saying the reason why we think more people will be saved is not because more people have been saved thus far, but because we just don't think that we're at the end yet, and we don't think we could be wrong, but we don't think that Jesus is coming back in the next 15 minutes.
[00:34:55]  Like, so the post millennial, you know, baked into the pie in that eschatology is like, we really do.
[00:35:02]  Pretty much every post millennial that I've talked to believes that we're looking at not just a few more decades or even a few more centuries, but very likely a few more millennia before the return of Christ, thousands of more years.

=== Trillions Saved Before Christ Returns (04:49) ===

[00:35:16]  And another thing to consider, and this is just a practical element, but another thing to consider is it's like, okay, but if you're a six day literal creationist, young earth, which I am, if you hold to that kind of creation theology and you're saying, all right, I'm going to date the world at maybe six, maybe eight.
[00:35:36]  Thousand years, somewhere in that range.
[00:35:39]  You know, and like even if Jesus tarries for like another six, eight thousand years, you're talking about like he would have to save pretty much, you know, everybody on the planet for the next six thousand years steady, saving everyone in order for your numbers to add up.
[00:35:54]  And I would just point out one other, you know, major factor, which is the population of the planet today is massively larger than the population of the planet.
[00:36:09]  For virtually every single century up until just like 50, 60 years ago.
[00:36:14]  Like, you look at a graph of just the human population, the way that it's exponentially grown.
[00:36:20]  And there are some problems right now, especially in Western nations, in terms of depopulation as people become disenchanted with family and children and those kinds of things, as we've turned our back on the cultural mandate to be fruitful and multiply.
[00:36:33]  You know, like even Elon Musk, you know, who's, as far as I can tell, a pagan, you know, he's not a Christian.
[00:36:39]  But even he has enough in God's common grace, enough sense and logic to recognize man, we don't have overpopulation threats or potential problems.
[00:36:48]  We have depopulation, underpopulation.
[00:36:50]  We need more people.
[00:36:52]  And so, my point is just to say that if you're looking at like the last six to 8,000 years, you know, we may have 8.2 billion people, give or take, on the planet today.
[00:37:02]  But the average, if we took an average number of people on the planet over the last six, 8,000 years, there weren't that many people.
[00:37:11]  There just weren't that many people.
[00:37:13]  So even if 99% of them went to hell, there weren't that many people.
[00:37:17]  And if we're saying there's going to be another 6,000 to 8,000 years and possibly 30,000, you know, but like another, you know, 6,000 to 8,000 years, but the average population, total world population for this second half of human history is, you know, 20 billion people, 50 billion people, 100 billion people, maybe a trillion people, you know, like we don't know.
[00:37:39]  I mean, a whole world population right now could fit in Texas comfortably.
[00:37:42]  You know, so like everybody who's, you know, these myths of overpopulation, all that, even that is just, it's a basic misunderstanding of what people are, right?
[00:37:51]  You have bad anthropology because you have bad theology.
[00:37:53]  You don't know who God is, so you don't know who man is.
[00:37:55]  So you think, like, we don't need more people because you have labeled people as predominantly consumers, right?
[00:38:01]  Who knows out of the 60 million plus children who have been murdered in their mother's womb just since Roe, you know, in just in my nation, in the United States of America, well, hey, that's 60 million less mouths to feed, is it?
[00:38:15]  Or out of those 60 million kids, who would have grown up and figured out new technology for agriculture and producing more crops?
[00:38:21]  And who would have done this?
[00:38:22]  And who would have potentially cured cancer?
[00:38:24]  And who, like, are people consumers, first and foremost, or are they made in the image of God and capable of incredible things?
[00:38:31]  And so, who knows what God might do just in his common grace, much less special grace and gospel advancement, to be able to stabilize, not only that we could survive, but actually thrive with a higher quality of living, but supporting 100 times the current human population.
[00:38:49]  On this planet, and that's not even to speak of possibilities of going to the moon and setting up a base there or Mars or whatever else.
[00:38:56]  And if there's 6,000 more years and you've got, on average, like 100 or 1,000 times just the total population of humanity than you had for the first 6,000 to 8,000 years, but the Great Commission is successful, the leaven is working through the whole batch of dough, and it's not just that the leaven is spreading, but the batch of dough itself is exponentially growing.
[00:39:17]  It's a bigger pile of dough.
[00:39:20]  Then, yeah, just practically speaking, aside from looking at some of the scriptures, just logically speaking for a moment, the numbers easily add up.
[00:39:29]  You could easily have not just in the same way that most guys would say it's not just 51% going to hell and 49% going.
[00:39:37]  They would say, no, the vast majority in hell.
[00:39:40]  Well, you could, as a post millennial, say, no, not just 51% heaven and 49% hell, but the vast majority going to heaven.
[00:39:49]  That heaven could really be a number that no man, really be an amount of people that no man could number.
[00:39:57]  That makes hell look like just a tiny little group of people in terms of comparison.
[00:40:04]  There will be millions of people in hell.

=== God's Eternal Decree for Salvation (15:12) ===

[00:40:06]  From what we can tell in human history and what we know about church history, there are millions of people in hell right now, possibly a few billion people in hell right now.
[00:40:15]  But there could be trillions in heaven.
[00:40:19]  That's correct.
[00:40:20]  And I think it's important also to point out that this idea also just goes naturally with the flow of scripture and the language of the New Testament.
[00:40:34]  And I mean, think about.
[00:40:37]  You know, a lot of people have pointed this out, Warfield and others.
[00:40:41]  This idea that Jesus is called multiple times the Savior of the world, you know, especially in the writings of John.
[00:40:49]  And think about how odd that would be as a title if, in fact, 99% of the world is lost, you know?
[00:40:58]  And, you know, and yeah, people, you know, Calvinists, Arminians kind of, you know, fight about those texts, you know.
[00:41:07]  For God so loved the world, you know, what does that mean?
[00:41:09]  And, you know, Calvinists say, yeah, it's the world is the elect.
[00:41:12]  And Arminians say, no, you know, it's a potential salvation, you know, for everybody.
[00:41:17]  But ultimately, most of them agree that, you know, whatever, you know, that's supposed to mean, you know, few are going to be saved, right?
[00:41:27]  Right.
[00:41:27]  The Arminians are going to say that it's each and every individual potential, but only a few take them up.
[00:41:31]  And then the Calvinists are going to say, it's not universalism, like potential for each and every individual, but world meaning.
[00:41:37]  Globally, like that, God didn't just so love Israel, but He loved Brazil and China and everybody else.
[00:41:42]  And He, but same, but when you get down to brass tacks, who's taking, you know, who is God either electing or on the Arminian side of the aisle, who's actually taking God up on this offer of salvation?
[00:41:51]  Both the Calvinists and Arminian agree.
[00:41:53]  Very few.
[00:41:55]  Right.
[00:41:55]  And it's, and yeah, and obviously, God loved Europe more than He loved, you know, most of the other continents, most of the other nations, because, you know, most of the people in heaven are going to be European.
[00:42:06]  You know, it would seem.
[00:42:09]  According to those demographics.
[00:42:10]  If Jesus came back, if he came back by now.
[00:42:12]  If Jesus came back, you know, tomorrow, that would have to be.
[00:42:16]  Well, really, if he came back about 100 years before today, then for sure it'd be primarily white.
[00:42:23]  But yeah.
[00:42:24]  But, and it's that's another interesting point that, you know, a lot of people say, you know, how can you think, you know, the gospel's advancing and Christianity's advancing?
[00:42:34]  You know, look at Europe.
[00:42:35]  You know, it's horrible how, you know, the Christianity's declined in Europe.
[00:42:39]  You know, the 16th century, 17th century was kind of the.
[00:42:44]  You know, the golden age, or something like that.
[00:42:47]  But in reality, you go back to that time and you ask, well, how many Christians were there in Africa?
[00:42:52]  Or how many Christians were there in China?
[00:42:54]  You know, yeah, there was a great number of Christians in Europe, but the rest of the world, I mean, there's more Christians alive today than any other point in human history, you know?
[00:43:05]  Right.
[00:43:05]  And so.
[00:43:06]  Like combined almost.
[00:43:08]  Yeah.
[00:43:09]  I mean, it's amazing the number of people who are Christians today all over the world in that sense.
[00:43:16]  And so I think it's very important to take that into account and to consider that the future.
[00:43:25]  Well, this language that the Bible uses, you know, of Jesus being the savior of the world is not accidental.
[00:43:33]  It's, you know, in that sense, it's intentional because Christ really will redeem most of the world when all is said and done.
[00:43:42]  You know, he really will be the savior of the world.
[00:43:46]  Not the savior of every last man, woman, and child, obviously.
[00:43:49]  You know, we do believe people are in hell.
[00:43:51]  But in general, the majority, if we believe the majority of the world is going to be saved, then savior of the world is a totally different.
[00:43:59]  Appropriate title that's right for Christ, and so yeah, I think it's important to point that out.
[00:44:06]  I think it's also important to, and you know, I'm gonna let Charles Spurgeon make this point, you know, so people don't get mad at me.
[00:44:15]  Um, but um, you know, even Arminians like Charles Spurgeon, so yeah, I mean, you most people like Charles Spurgeon, so I'll let him say it.
[00:44:23]  Um, he said this, he said, How often do I hear people say, Ah, straight is the gate, and narrow is the way, and few there be that find it.
[00:44:33]  There will be very few in heaven, and most will be lost.
[00:44:39]  My friend, I differ with you.
[00:44:40]  Do you think that Christ will let the devil beat him?
[00:44:43]  That he will let the devil have more in hell than there are in heaven?
[00:44:48]  No, it is impossible, for then Satan would laugh at Christ.
[00:44:53]  There will be more in heaven than there are among the lost.
[00:44:58]  God says that there will be a number that no man can count who will be saved.
[00:45:03]  But he never says there will be a number that no man can number that will be lost.
[00:45:09]  There will be a host beyond all count who will get into heaven.
[00:45:14]  That's what Charles Spurgeon said.
[00:45:16]  Just that post male Spurgeon, huh?
[00:45:19]  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, though, because he's kind of mixed on his eschatology, probably more of a premillennialist, but he had that Puritan influence, that Puritan hope there as well.
[00:45:33]  And so it's very interesting what he's saying, because he's saying, look, I mean, if Christ was the victor, if Christ defeated Satan, it's kind of strange for after defeating Satan, then Satan just, you know, ends up taking nine tenths of the human race to hell with him, you know, for the next few thousand years, right?
[00:46:00]  That's kind of a strange outcome.
[00:46:03]  And, you know, people, Christians, evangelicals have come up with all kinds of creative ways of justifying that.
[00:46:13]  And saying that if you even bring up the numbers thing, you're just not spiritual.
[00:46:17]  You're just not thinking of the gospel in a Christ centric kind of a way.
[00:46:27]  You're thinking in a worldly way or something like that.
[00:46:31]  So apparently Spurgeon was very worldly when he pointed the obvious out that, well, if Christ defeated Satan, but then somehow Satan is able to drag most of.
[00:46:45]  People in the rest of history with him to hell, that's kind of a strange scenario in that sense.
[00:46:53]  And counterintuitive to what we see in terms of the history of redemption.
[00:46:59]  And so I think it's a great point that he brings up.
[00:47:03]  I think it's an important point.
[00:47:06]  And again, it's a point that I see all millennialists and, well, definitely premillennialists, but all millennialists especially struggle with because they have, on the one hand, they're saying, well, Satan's bound, right?
[00:47:24]  He can't deceive the nations anymore.
[00:47:26]  But on the other hand, somehow bound, he's able to, you know, remain in control of most of the nations, right?
[00:47:34]  He's able to keep everybody for the most part under his thumb, except for, you know, a few exceptions.
[00:47:41]  And to Iron Man the, you know, the all millennial as best we can, and not just, you know, I'm not saying that you're doing this, but to, if anybody, you know, would accuse us of using a straw man, to Iron Man them as best we can, you know, they would say, well, no, it's not so much that, you know, Satan, You know, yes, we believe he was bound.
[00:47:58]  You know, Jesus bound the strong man, and now we're plundering the house.
[00:48:00]  You know, one gospel proclamation at a time, the Great Commission going forward, plundering the house.
[00:48:06]  But it proves to be unsuccessful, not because the strong man, Satan, that has been bound by Christ, is still operating with such vigor and such power, but because of simply just the power of the flesh, right?
[00:48:18]  That there are three great enemies that we face.
[00:48:22]  The devil is one of them, but there's also the world, there's also the flesh.
[00:48:25]  And because of just the doctrine of total depravity, Runs so deep, the curse of sin runs so deep.
[00:48:31]  It's not so much that the devil is still deceiving the nations.
[00:48:34]  He's no longer deceiving the nations, but the nations are deceiving themselves.
[00:48:38]  To which, so that I would say that that's a fair representation of the all millennial.
[00:48:42]  That's more of an Iron Man representation of their view, but still the counter would still be the same.
[00:48:47]  Okay, so then, you know, so Christ beats the devil, but Christ can't beat sin, right?
[00:48:56]  Because it's still Christ being a loser.
[00:48:59]  Ultimately, whether his opponent is Satan directly beating Christ or whether the opponent is simply the curse, the curse of sin beating Christ, right?
[00:49:09]  But everybody becomes a post mill around Christmas time, right?
[00:49:11]  You know, we all, we're seeing those, you know, as far as the curse is found, far as, you know, like how far does the redemption go?
[00:49:19]  How victorious will Christ be?
[00:49:21]  Like, does he just bind Satan or does he also, does he conquer sin?
[00:49:25]  You know, and what are the implications of that?
[00:49:29]  Back to you.
[00:49:30]  Right.
[00:49:31]  And my question would be when has The flesh ever thwarted the purposes of God in history.
[00:49:37]  Right.
[00:49:37]  Right.
[00:49:38]  When has that happened?
[00:49:39]  Right.
[00:49:40]  We believe in the sovereignty of God.
[00:49:42]  We, you know, we believe in a God who even worked through, you know, Joseph's brothers doing, you know, that the flesh did not defeat God's purposes in that case or in any other case in history.
[00:49:57]  And so, you know, whether it's the devil's plans, whether it's the flesh, if God has a purpose, He's sovereign.
[00:50:05]  He's going to accomplish it in history.
[00:50:07]  And so, really, the only recourse that someone would have is to say, Well, God, you know, Jesus just doesn't really want the nations in this age.
[00:50:16]  He wants to give the nations, for the most part, to the devil, right?
[00:50:21]  And discipling the nations just means that he wants to have some people.
[00:50:26]  I mean, I even had an amillennial pastor, I heard an amillennial pastor who made something when he, when, when, When Pastor James White became post mill, he was responding to that.
[00:50:39]  And he even said that North Korea is a discipled nation, right?
[00:50:44]  Because there are Christians there.
[00:50:45]  And so, you know, Christ returns tomorrow.
[00:50:48]  You know, that's that.
[00:50:50]  North Korea is a discipled nation.
[00:50:52]  Like, Jesus had no greater hopes or plans for North Korea than for Kim Jong-un and his people to be like God's people until God Christ returns.
[00:51:08]  North Korea is one of the disciples of Christ in the same way that Judas was.
[00:51:13]  We'd like to see the bar of discipleship just a little higher.
[00:51:19]  That's crazy.
[00:51:20]  A pastor said that.
[00:51:22]  Oh, yeah.
[00:51:22]  Well, and see, that's the problem because they don't believe in discipling the nations.
[00:51:25]  They believe in making disciples of individual people out of nations and that these individual people could be, you know, two or three.
[00:51:33]  It's such a pathetic redemption.
[00:51:36]  It's such a weak, small.
[00:51:38]  And what you were saying earlier is so helpful because that's what we have to.
[00:51:42]  So, whether the enemy is Satan or whether the enemy is the flesh or whether the enemy is the world, or as you and I would both affirm, it's all three.
[00:51:50]  At the end of the day, God is greater than all.
[00:51:53]  All three of those enemies.
[00:51:55]  And so it comes down to the purposes of God, which no man can thwart.
[00:51:58]  Sin can't thwart it.
[00:51:59]  Satan can't thwart it.
[00:52:00]  Man can't thwart it.
[00:52:01]  The world can't thwart it.
[00:52:02]  The purposes of God cannot be hindered, they cannot be stopped.
[00:52:06]  So ultimately, it comes down to the eternal decree of God.
[00:52:09]  What does God want?
[00:52:11]  What has He said?
[00:52:12]  What has He decreed?
[00:52:13]  What is His desire?
[00:52:15]  So basically, it all boils down to one question Does God want the majority of people going to hell or not?
[00:52:22]  Or does He want to save the majority of people?
[00:52:25]  And it's not just what God wants to people, but it's also what we know from the scripture about the character and nature of God, the will of God, and what he desires in terms of his own namesake, for your namesake, for his glory, for his fame.
[00:52:38]  What does God want to do for man, but also what does God want to say about himself by what he does for man?
[00:52:45]  And I like the last thing that I want to say real quick.
[00:52:47]  I love that you brought up Joseph, right?
[00:52:49]  The verse that you were getting at is that, you know, where Joseph says, evil god meant for good.
[00:52:56]  And it's not just you.
[00:52:57]  You meant something.
[00:52:57]  You had evil intentions for an evil action um, but God salvaged it or turned it for good.
[00:53:03]  No uh no, god intended same word, what you know, what you meant, what you intended for evil god.
[00:53:10]  The implication, the necessary inference in that text is, god ordained this, you were doing it you're, you have human agency and responsibility for the action that you took.
[00:53:19]  And yet behind your action the, you know, there was um the, the first cause of all things the, the Ordained will of God with an intention, and his intention, in contrast to yours, was a good and holy purpose.
[00:53:35]  But then, beyond that, the reason why Joseph is such a good thing to bring into the story is because one, Joseph is a type of Christ, and two, what is God's intention?
[00:53:44]  Right?
[00:53:44]  So it's not just God meant it for good, but what was this particularly, specifically, what was the good?
[00:53:49]  To save a great many people, right?
[00:53:53]  So Joseph is such a great type of Christ because what you have going on with Joseph is his own received him not.
[00:54:01]  His household, his brothers, his brothers according to the flesh, literal brothers, they all rejected him and they threw him down into a pit, right?
[00:54:12]  Just like Jesus is down into the belly of the earth.
[00:54:15]  I mean, the parallels of Joseph and Christ are incredible.
[00:54:21]  And he's falsely accused, Joseph, by Potiphar's wife and thrown into prison.
[00:54:25]  And he's reviled and he's mocked and all these things.
[00:54:28]  His own brothers despise him, they receive him not.
[00:54:31]  They hand him over, just like Judas handed Jesus over for 30 pieces of silver.
[00:54:35]  His brothers, Joseph's brothers, hand him over for silver.
[00:54:40]  And so all the different parallels.
[00:54:41]  But then Joseph, all the intentions of the brothers are, they meant evil towards their brother Joseph.
[00:54:48]  It was out of spite.
[00:54:49]  But God doesn't just salvage it.
[00:54:51]  God, behind the action of Joseph's brothers, God ordained it with good and holy and righteous loving purposes.
[00:54:58]  And the purposes weren't just loving for Joseph to exalt and glorify Joseph, but that through Joseph, who was thrown down into the pit, but that would one day be exalted and raised up, when he was finally exalted, through Joseph's exaltation, a great many people would be saved.

=== Suffering and Future Christian Exaltation (09:56) ===

[00:55:18]  And not just his brothers, the house of Jacob, his father, and the people of Israel.
[00:55:24]  In seed form, but Egypt, the greatest superpower known in the world at that time, and all the nations coming to Egypt because the famine was very great throughout all the land.
[00:55:35]  So, what happened in the story of Joseph?
[00:55:38]  His own brothers received him not.
[00:55:40]  They had evil intentions.
[00:55:41]  God was standing behind the whole thing, ordaining it all with good intentions and not just personally good intentions for Joseph's sake, but that through his goodness to Joseph, he might save many people from every tribe, tongue, and nation across the known world at the time.
[00:55:55]  And so then you get into like, okay, like, You know, how many people died of starvation?
[00:56:00]  I'm sure some people did.
[00:56:02]  But overall, what we can tell from the narrative from that story of Joseph is that by Joseph's wisdom and by his exaltation, the majority of the known world was saved.
[00:56:14]  They made it through the famine.
[00:56:16]  They didn't starve, they lived.
[00:56:18]  They lived.
[00:56:19]  And if you compare that, you know, and look at Joseph as a type of Christ, and so, you know, all that being said, one more thing, real quick B.B. Warfield, right?
[00:56:28]  So you sent me the article, it was fantastic, and I was reading that, you know, this.
[00:56:31]  10 page article by B.B. Warfield.
[00:56:33]  And one of the things he also said about parables, you just got to be careful.
[00:56:36]  Like, what is the, in what sense does Jesus, is he using the parable?
[00:56:40]  What is Jesus trying to say in the parable?
[00:56:43]  Because you can read out, right?
[00:56:44]  Pastors get wacky and funky, you know, teaching through parables sometimes because they'll be like, and notice this point of the parable.
[00:56:51]  And it's like, well, but is that the point of the parable?
[00:56:54]  Or is it, you know, like, you can go too far in the way that you try to push, you know, the principle or the morals of a parable.
[00:57:02]  You have to use the parable the way that Jesus intends it to be used.
[00:57:05]  What is he communicating?
[00:57:06]  And so, with the narrow is the gate and hard is the way that leads to life, and few ever find it, and broad is the gate and easy is the way.
[00:57:18]  I really think the way Jesus, that's a parable.
[00:57:21]  And the way that Jesus is using this descriptive parable, I think it's clear from the larger context what Jesus is saying.
[00:57:28]  He's speaking more to the nature of the way than the size of the people or the scope of the people who traverse that particular way.
[00:57:36]  I think the emphasis is not on few and many.
[00:57:38]  The emphasis is on easy and hard, wide versus narrow.
[00:57:43]  I think what Jesus is saying is there's only one way that leads to life.
[00:57:47]  I don't think the major point is few are saved.
[00:57:51]  I think the main point is there are multiple ways that lead to destruction, wide path that leads to destruction, pluralism leads to destruction.
[00:58:00]  But there is only one way that leads to life.
[00:58:03]  I am the way, the truth, and the life.
[00:58:05]  And it's a difficult way.
[00:58:06]  It's a way that no man can traverse on his own.
[00:58:08]  It's by Faith alone, by grace alone, through faith that you must be born again.
[00:58:12]  That's what Jesus is saying.
[00:58:13]  And so B.B. Warfield, he takes that and just shows you the absurdity by using another parable and says, What if we were to read the percentages of who's going to end up in heaven and who's going to end up in hell from another parable of the 10 virgins?
[00:58:28]  So, 10 virgins, the bridegroom is coming, right?
[00:58:31]  And they all go out to meet him because he's coming in the middle of the night.
[00:58:35]  And five of the virgins are wise and they bring extra oil for their lamps.
[00:58:40]  And five of the virgins are foolish and they don't bring enough oil.
[00:58:43]  And so their oil runs out, their lamps grow dim.
[00:58:46]  They go to the wise virgins and say, Please give us some of your oil.
[00:58:49]  And the wise virgins say, No, because we may not have enough for ourselves.
[00:58:53]  And the bridegroom could come and we'll miss them.
[00:58:55]  And so, you know, the five foolish virgins go back into town to buy more oil.
[00:58:59]  And the bridegroom comes and he takes the five wise virgins in with him.
[00:59:04]  And they close the doors.
[00:59:05]  And the five foolish virgins are locked out and it's too late.
[00:59:08]  And so, B.B. Warfield looks at that and he says, So here we have it.
[00:59:11]  Clearly, what Jesus is telling us in this parable is that 50% of all of human.
[00:59:17]  Population throughout human history will be in hell and 50% will be in heaven.
[00:59:20]  Five and five.
[00:59:22]  No, you don't read the parable that way.
[00:59:23]  That's not what's being communicated by the parable.
[00:59:26]  And so he's just using that as an example, you know, from the greater to the lesser to show the absurdity.
[00:59:31]  We have to read parables for the purpose that the Lord intended them.
[00:59:36]  So, any thoughts on that, Nathan?
[00:59:38]  Yeah.
[00:59:39]  Yeah.
[00:59:39]  No, I mean, I think, I mean, I just, I think that you mentioned, you know, the emphasis being on the difficulty of the way and not the number.
[00:59:50]  I think that's, And I think it also leads into a common objection people have with regards to all of this, because they go, well, if you're saying that in the future the nations are going to be Christian, there's going to be more Christians in the world, and it's going to be a better place in a lot of ways, then where is all that suffering?
[01:00:10]  You know, I mean, isn't the Christian life from beginning to end, this mortal life is supposed to be, you know, marked by suffering?
[01:00:19]  And if things are going to get better, wouldn't that diminish suffering?
[01:00:23]  Right.
[01:00:24]  So that's a very common objective, you know, objection.
[01:00:28]  Sorry, people have to post millennialism.
[01:00:31]  Well, I think it's pretty, I think it falls apart very quickly in the first place because suffering for Christ actually, even now, looks a bit different for someone living in Southern California, for example, compared to someone living in North Korea.
[01:00:54]  Right.
[01:00:54]  Going back to that example, like even today.
[01:00:59]  Are we going to really say that the fact that the degree of suffering that one person is experiencing and the much lesser suffering that the guy in Southern California is experiencing means that they're not really a Christian because they're not really suffering for Jesus because they get to go to In-N-Out and enjoy the sunshine and all these things?
[01:01:27]  So even today, that doesn't really work.
[01:01:29]  Like there's degrees of suffering.
[01:01:31]  And obviously, when we talk about the world becoming Christian, we're not saying that all suffering will be ended, right?
[01:01:39]  Because even if all the world is Christian, even if, you know, to the last man, woman, and child, everybody's a Christian in the future, Christians sin.
[01:01:49]  Right.
[01:01:49]  Christians, you know, it's not all easy.
[01:01:54]  There's hardship in life, you know, and those hardships are not going to be completely done away with until Christ returns, right?
[01:02:03]  Basically.
[01:02:04]  And so the continuance of suffering and difficulties and hardships, though the degrees may be less, is something that will be constant throughout.
[01:02:16]  Yeah, we may not be thrown to lions in a Colosseum, but we're not being thrown to lions in a Colosseum right now.
[01:02:22]  Right?
[01:02:22]  So it's like, oh, then I guess the words of Jesus aren't true because we've lived in America on the backdrop of Christendom.
[01:02:30]  That's why we're not being thrown to lions.
[01:02:31]  And if God doesn't do something in his mercy, if we don't repent of our sins and call out and cry out to Jesus and bring America back to Christ, then we maybe eventually will be thrown to lions.
[01:02:48]  But the point is that we're not talking about something that's never been done before.
[01:02:53]  I think that's important for people to understand.
[01:02:54]  There have been time periods over the last 2,000 years, and I would argue that at least in the West, we're in one of those time periods right now in Western cultures where.
[01:03:05]  Where Christianity was the dominant influence.
[01:03:08]  And so, by and large, there are certain benefits and provisions, practical benefits and provisions for being a Christian.
[01:03:19]  There's not a ton of persecution, right?
[01:03:22]  So, somebody who would say, well, post meal can't be true because exactly what you're saying, it can't be true because then that would do away with suffering.
[01:03:30]  Okay, well, I'm sure that people in the first century church who were being thrown to lions, if they knew, What your life was going to be like in Texas, you know, going to Whataburger to change it from Southern California, because I don't, you know, I live in Southern California and I love Southern California.
[01:03:44]  So I say Texas is even more, you know, more cozy and comfy.
[01:03:48]  But, you know, like first century, if the Apostle Paul was looking at my life, he'd be, you know, like he'd be tempted to say, where's the suffering?
[01:03:55]  But the reality is like, well, we suffer because of sin.
[01:03:57]  We don't just suffer because of the world.
[01:03:59]  And we don't just suffer because of there being a majority population of unbelievers persecuting.
[01:04:06]  Christians, no one has hurt me more over the course of my life than Christians.
[01:04:10]  And there is no one, to be fair, that I've hurt more than fellow Christians.
[01:04:14]  I have sinned against Christians more than I've sinned against pagans.
[01:04:17]  And Christians have sinned against me personally more than pagans have sinned against me because I've been doing my life predominantly with Christians.
[01:04:24]  The relationships that I've formed have been with fellow Christians and in relationships with Christians.
[01:04:30]  Me being a Christian by the grace of God, them being a Christian by the grace of God, we're still jerks.
[01:04:35]  And it hurts and it's hard and it's suffering.
[01:04:38]  And so you're absolutely right.
[01:04:41]  But we need to land the plane, but I feel like we've made it.
[01:04:44]  I feel persuaded.
[01:04:46]  My biased mind has been thoroughly persuaded in our beautiful echo chamber that we've created for this recording.
[01:04:55]  I hope that other people who were maybe not on board have been challenged.
[01:04:58]  I think that we've made a compelling case.
[01:05:00]  I think that we've looked at the scripture, we've looked at church history, we've looked at guys like B.B. Warfield.
[01:05:04]  I love that you brought Spurgeon into the mix.
[01:05:06]  But are there any final words that you want to give us as we go ahead and conclude the episode for today?

=== The Glorious Victory of Christ (02:32) ===

[01:05:14]  Yeah, well, I think, yeah, we've looked at a lot of these different issues, and I think it's something that a lot of Christians haven't really thought about, haven't really considered.
[01:05:25]  You know, that's been my experience when I talk about this subject with fellow Christians, especially Christians that have a different eschatological view.
[01:05:34]  For the most part, it's not something they have thought about, it's not something that they find to be an important topic.
[01:05:42]  They say, well, that's just kind of, we'll just leave that up to the Lord and not, you know, not worry about that.
[01:05:48]  Too much.
[01:05:49]  But I think it really is important to consider and look at the scriptures and see what is actually there and what we actually see in terms of this idea that actually the future is a lot more glorious for the church than we would think a lot of times.
[01:06:12]  And just to close with that, I'd like to briefly quote George Whitefield talking about this subject, talking about the future of the church.
[01:06:21]  He said, There are more excellent things ahead, glorious things that are spoken of these times, when the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.
[01:06:35]  And then he says, For all former glory of the Christian church shall be nothing in comparison to the glory that shall excel.
[01:06:46]  Then shall they cry out, With the governor of the feast, thou hast kept the good wine until now.
[01:06:53]  So I just wanted to leave that.
[01:06:55]  That Whitfield.
[01:06:56]  Kept the good wine till now.
[01:06:58]  I love that.
[01:06:59]  That's good.
[01:07:00]  Thanks for sharing that.
[01:07:01]  All right.
[01:07:01]  Well, thanks, guys, for tuning in.
[01:07:03]  I hope that this has been helpful for you and seeing one of the practical benefits of the post millennial eschatology that we believe that not only is it glorious and is it exciting, is it Christ's victory, but it's Christ's victory first and foremost for his glory, but also for the good of mankind.
[01:07:21]  We want to see people saved and we want to see lots of people saved.
[01:07:26]  In fact, the majority of people saved.
[01:07:28]  So.
[01:07:29]  Thanks for tuning in.
[01:07:30]  Thanks so much for listening.
[01:07:31]  But, real quick, before you go, do us a small favor take a moment and leave us a five star review if you enjoyed the show.
[01:07:39]  This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.
[01:07:46]  Thanks so much.