NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Women’s Ministries Actually Biblical?
Aired: 2022-07-05
Duration: 56:22


=== Different Callings Overlap (14:42) ===

[00:00:00]  Hey guys, real quick before we get started, I have a small request.
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[00:00:18]  Hi, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:20]  I am your host, Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries, and you're about to listen to one of my all time favorite episodes.
[00:00:26]  What we're doing for the month of July is we're taking four of my personal favorite episodes.
[00:00:32]  That also happened to be four of the most popular episodes that we've ever done.
[00:00:36]  And this is an interview between myself and Rachel Jankovic.
[00:00:41]  Rachel Jankovic, she's written a book called You Who, dealing with women and sadly the obsession that many of them have in finding identity and worth and value in and of themselves.
[00:00:57]  And in this particular episode, what we focus on is the biblical merit.
[00:01:02]  Or lack thereof with women's ministries.
[00:01:05]  Basically, we are addressing the question of whether or not women's ministries in local churches is actually biblical.
[00:01:15]  Spoiler alert the answer is in many cases no, and we'll tell you precisely why.
[00:01:21]  Thanks for tuning in.
[00:01:22]  Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
[00:01:26]  This is Theology Apply.
[00:01:33]  All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Apply.
[00:01:36]  Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
[00:01:38]  Today I have Rachel Jankovic as a guest on our show, and we're going to be talking about the title for our topic How Women's Ministry Went Wrong.
[00:01:49]  How Women's Ministry Went Wrong.
[00:01:51]  And so I feel like Rachel has a lot to say about this.
[00:01:55]  She's spoken about this in her writing, her blogs, her podcasting, all those kinds of things.
[00:02:00]  And so I'm really excited and honored and privileged to have her as a guest.
[00:02:04]  So without further ado, Rachel, could you tell our audience a little bit about yourself?
[00:02:10]  Sure.
[00:02:10]  Thanks for having me.
[00:02:11]  Glad to be here.
[00:02:13]  I am a wife and mother.
[00:02:15]  That's what I do with my life.
[00:02:17]  I'm married to Luke.
[00:02:18]  We have seven kids, ages almost 16 down to almost five.
[00:02:23]  So, most of my life, what I'm doing is feeding people, taking people to school, doing the laundry.
[00:02:29]  That's really what I do.
[00:02:31]  But I also have written a few books for mothers and then followed that up with a book on identity because of how many.
[00:02:39]  Identity problems I was seeing among Christian mothers when they would ask questions.
[00:02:43]  I think actually, you just don't understand what it means to be a Christian and what your life is supposed to be like and what you're for.
[00:02:50]  And that one's called Yoo Hoo.
[00:02:51]  And then I'm heavily involved in a Bible reading challenge and just trying to be a faithful Christian wife and mother here in Moscow.
[00:03:00]  That's great.
[00:03:01]  Let's go ahead and just dive right into our topic.
[00:03:04]  What are some of the problems that you see with the typical women's ministry in our local churches today?
[00:03:12]  Okay, that's a real big question.
[00:03:15]  I would say I think that women's ministry probably started as like a women's auxiliary type event in churches, meaning that women were getting together to work on behalf of the church.
[00:03:29]  Like, you know, you think of wartime things or even trying to earn money for the organ or, you know, whatever it was that they were doing, women were getting together to work together.
[00:03:39]  And that was the goal.
[00:03:41]  Well, as Our culture, things have really shifted.
[00:03:45]  So if you think about that old school kind of women are sewing quilts and crocheting baby blankets for the needy, well, that's less likely to be needed now, right?
[00:03:55]  We don't need, we don't actually need people to be crocheting the blankets because we have mass produced things.
[00:04:01]  We have, you know, like the situation, the cultural situation changed.
[00:04:06]  So, what I think happened is you still had this women getting together, but we made the women in the church themselves the work of the women in the church.
[00:04:17]  So, instead of women working shoulder to shoulder for the kingdom and for the gospel, it turned into a circle where we're facing one another, where we're Where it's all about ourselves.
[00:04:30]  And I think that that's unhealthy.
[00:04:32]  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:04:34]  I feel like in our nation today, you always hear the term easy believism.
[00:04:40]  And we could say that part of the problem with the evangelical church in America is it's just too dang easy to be a Christian.
[00:04:48]  And it sounds like kind of part of what you're saying is maybe more specifically, it's too easy to be a Christian woman.
[00:04:55]  There's just, because of modern conveniences.
[00:04:58]  Yeah, because of modern conveniences.
[00:05:00]  So I hear you saying that if I want to love my wife well, I need to sell our dishwasher and microwave.
[00:05:06]  Is that correct?
[00:05:08]  Of course, yeah, that's what I mean.
[00:05:10]  No, and I actually have, I serve on what is effectively our women's ministry in our church.
[00:05:19]  But I can say that it's a tremendous blessing of fellowship for women to be working together towards something.
[00:05:26]  So I'm not suggesting that we discard.
[00:05:29]  The ways that women get to know each other, the ways that we support one another, the ways that women can be thoughtful of one another.
[00:05:36]  But the focus of what we're trying to do has an awful lot to do with how healthy that kind of support will be, right?
[00:05:42]  Like how healthy, how actually God centered, how actually encouraging the health is.
[00:05:50]  So you asked me, I mean, I only said one thing that I think has gone wrong.
[00:05:54]  But if you think about this system we've made where the women are all facing each other and you have women in charge whose job it is to have needy women in the church.
[00:06:04]  Right?
[00:06:04]  It's essentially a welfare system.
[00:06:07]  Like they would think that the women's ministry is failing if nobody shows up for it.
[00:06:13]  But if all the women are not desperately emotionally needy and they don't need to go, they're like, I don't need to show up for this moment because they're not needed to work.
[00:06:22]  It's like, therefore, they're consumers of ministry, right?
[00:06:27]  They're supposed to come and receive something that will bless them.
[00:06:31]  If they're not coming, that would be seen as a failure of somebody.
[00:06:35]  But the reality is, they might just be doing well.
[00:06:38]  They might be spiritually healthy.
[00:06:40]  And that would kill off the women's ministry in some ways.
[00:06:45]  And the other way is that problem that you end up with women teachers, where the godly women in the church become sort of the pastors for women instead of themselves being the most hospitable, the most, you know, like instead of them pursuing the roles that women are called to.
[00:07:06]  They are turning into like the pastors for the women's church in the church.
[00:07:09]  Yep.
[00:07:10]  Yep.
[00:07:11]  I have definitely witnessed that.
[00:07:14]  You kept saying this face to face versus shoulder to shoulder.
[00:07:18]  It reminds me of C.S. Lewis when he talks about the essence of friendship.
[00:07:23]  He says, you know, the essence of friendship.
[00:07:25]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:07:25]  It's this you too, in essence of like, meaning that we're not just, we're certainly not navel gazing.
[00:07:33]  Sadly, I think a lot of women's ministry has gone beyond face to face.
[00:07:35]  And I think you would agree with this.
[00:07:36]  It's now gone to just looking at your own navel.
[00:07:39]  Oh, yeah, man.
[00:07:40]  Everybody, get out your sin and let's talk about it.
[00:07:43]  I do think, and in Four Loves, I think he says that those who are going nowhere can have no fellow travelers.
[00:07:49]  Right.
[00:07:50]  And that is the thing is that there's, while women are in this circle pouring out their grief and supporting one another in their messes and their tangles, and they're like, just hear it and feel it with one another.
[00:08:03]  Nobody's going anywhere.
[00:08:04]  So they're actually still missing what they need desperately, which is the companionship of fellow travelers.
[00:08:11]  But there's no trajectory.
[00:08:13]  So they think they're having it, they think they're getting it, but they're still missing what they're longing for, if that makes sense.
[00:08:20]  Yeah.
[00:08:21]  It sounds like what you're saying is women, godly women, need a mission.
[00:08:25]  And it doesn't need to be focused on themselves, but like, what are we doing together?
[00:08:30]  And I always think about it's not like men are called to work and women aren't.
[00:08:34]  We just have two different arenas where we're called to work.
[00:08:36]  And men, in many ways, work outside of the home with provision and protection, whereas women are called to work in the home, but it's still working.
[00:08:46]  There's still a mission.
[00:08:47]  And if women aren't thinking in terms of mission or working, then it just becomes kind of this love fest of, you know, you're amazing, you're awesome, and that's what women's ministry consists of, rather than.
[00:08:59]  You have a mission.
[00:09:00]  Are you doing it well?
[00:09:01]  If so, okay, I'll see you on the Lord's Day when the pastor preaches to us because you're healthy.
[00:09:06]  And if you're not doing it well, then let's, you know, as an extracurricular, not a substitute to the Lord's Day to being a part of this local church, but extracurricular, let's get an older woman around you to help beef up your success in fulfilling your mission at home.
[00:09:22]  Would you agree with that?
[00:09:24]  Yes.
[00:09:25]  Yes, I think I would mostly agree with that.
[00:09:28]  The one thing I would say is that I do think men are when we're called to different.
[00:09:32]  But I don't think husbands and wives are called to different areas.
[00:09:37]  They're called to be a godly household and building, you know, for the kingdom.
[00:09:43]  It's a kingdom building calling that a husband and wife share.
[00:09:46]  The actual roles are different, but it's not like what I'm doing at home is not my husband's sphere.
[00:09:55]  It's what I'm doing with him unto the Lord.
[00:09:59]  So it is different in the sense that, yes, I think I'm called to different areas.
[00:10:03]  I'm called to different work than he is, but it's not like they don't overlap.
[00:10:07]  Like, I'm called to this, and he's called over there, and we're not actually called to the same life together.
[00:10:13]  That's helpful.
[00:10:14]  So, you're pushing back on what I said in terms of, okay, we have two different spheres, the difference between men and women is we have two different spheres, because you're right.
[00:10:21]  I should clarify, it's less of that.
[00:10:23]  It's more of, no, we're both trying to build the kingdom by building godly households.
[00:10:28]  And so, it's not so much we're working in two different spheres, but we're working in two different ways.
[00:10:33]  You're doing one thing, and I'm doing another.
[00:10:35]  Yeah.
[00:10:36]  Exactly.
[00:10:37]  So it's the same.
[00:10:38]  But I would say my husband and I, so I think it's an important distinction that what I'm doing at home, I'm doing as his helper.
[00:10:47]  I'm not doing it because this is my work.
[00:10:49]  I'm doing it because this is his work and God has given him me to help him get this accomplished.
[00:10:57]  So it is different as far as it's not as I don't think that the home is like the woman's domain, like the woman is stuck here.
[00:11:05]  I think it's my domain, like God has called me.
[00:11:08]  To do this work on behalf of us as a family and his people.
[00:11:12]  That's really good.
[00:11:13]  I've heard it said before, I can't remember the exact reference, but I've heard it said that a woman is always like similar to what your dad has said with Doug Wilson in terms of like a man, even his absence, he's still, no matter what, he's the head of his home.
[00:11:29]  And so whether that's an empty chair or an abusive chair at the table or a godly chair, either way, he's the head of his home.
[00:11:35]  He's just, he's a good one or a bad one.
[00:11:37]  In the same way, would you, I've heard it said that a woman.
[00:11:41]  Is always going to be the helpmate of a man.
[00:11:44]  It's either going to be her husband, or she's going to be building the household of her husband, or she's going to be building, if she works for some company, she's nine times out of ten building another man's kingdom.
[00:11:57]  She's helping a man build something as his helpmate.
[00:12:03]  And what we want to encourage women to do is use that energy, use those gifts, use that love and everything that God's given you to build up your husband's house.
[00:12:13]  Would you agree with that statement?
[00:12:15]  I don't know.
[00:12:16]  I actually think I'm thinking as you say that, I don't know that I would say that in the same way that there's no exceptions, that that's what would be happening.
[00:12:25]  But I think it's very typical.
[00:12:28]  I mean, that's that Chesterton quote, right?
[00:12:31]  About the million women who rose up and said, We will not be dictated to and became stenographers.
[00:12:38]  Like, don't tell me what to do, I'll be your secretary.
[00:12:42]  Right.
[00:12:44]  Just hilarious.
[00:12:46]  But yes, I believe that that's often the case.
[00:12:48]  But I don't know that I'd want to say that's a universal rule.
[00:12:51]  Gotcha.
[00:12:51]  So you want to say it's as universal as a man being the head of his home.
[00:12:56]  But you would be willing to admit that there is an irony that often seems to be true.
[00:13:01]  Oh, yeah, totally.
[00:13:02]  Yeah, that's typically the case, for sure.
[00:13:04]  Fair enough.
[00:13:05]  Okay, so here's another question How can pastors who biblically should be male effectively love and shepherd 50, typically 50% of their church, namely the women?
[00:13:19]  Okay, so when it comes to women's ministry, I sometimes make this distinction that I think women should be thinking in terms of a ministry of women.
[00:13:27]  What can we do together that is a ministry versus there's really only one ministry of the church and it's for men and women, right?
[00:13:37]  The ministry of the word and sacrament.
[00:13:40]  That's not something that is for men only, right?
[00:13:43]  So because the office of preaching and pastoring is for men biblically, that doesn't mean that.
[00:13:50]  It is only effective for the men in the congregation.
[00:13:53]  It's for all of God's people, including children, women, everyone should be under the faithful teaching of God's word.
[00:14:00]  And that's really the ministry, the one ministry of the church is that.
[00:14:04]  So I would say the most critical thing is for a pastor to be faithfully preaching God's word, faithfully teaching God's word.
[00:14:14]  And one of the most common ways that pastors don't love the women in their church is by being afraid of them.
[00:14:21]  And I think that I have joked sometimes.
[00:14:24]  One of the best things my husband, one of the most wonderful things about my husband is how he's not at all afraid of me.
[00:14:31]  And what I mean by that is that it's a real mercy to women in a church when the pastor is not afraid to say something that might upset some women in the church or afraid to.

=== Pastors Afraid of Women (04:09) ===

[00:14:42]  Because I think this has been a really bad little cycle that we've gotten into.
[00:14:47]  The pastor is afraid to directly address women in the congregation.
[00:14:52]  And because he's afraid to directly address women, like because he's not a woman, because the women will, you know, in a lot of places, there will be huge outcry and the women will get their husbands mad and every, you know, it'll turn into a big scene if he addresses the women.
[00:15:07]  So then what they end up doing is they have a bunch of women who need something.
[00:15:11]  So then they start a women's ministry where the whole premise of why they're asking a woman to do it is because we don't want to say a thing that actually addresses the women.
[00:15:21]  So then you have created this bizarrely emotional.
[00:15:25]  Situation where we exist to serve the emotions of the women in the church rather than the church exists or the preacher is preaching because he serves God and his word.
[00:15:38]  And the people are called to come under that and obey God's word.
[00:15:42]  Instead, it's like, well, we'll start a whole other branch of things where we won't say the hard things to women.
[00:15:48]  And I think that that's just, it really, really belittles women.
[00:15:54]  To think that godly Christian women cannot hear God's word preached and apply it to their lives and actually be as encouraged by that as men are.
[00:16:06]  Yeah.
[00:16:07]  No, you're right.
[00:16:08]  It's demeaning.
[00:16:09]  To women, it's that they won't be as edified, they won't be as encouraged, but also that they can't handle it.
[00:16:16]  They can't handle it.
[00:16:17]  Right, that they don't have.
[00:16:18]  You can't handle it if God's word says something to you.
[00:16:20]  That's right.
[00:16:21]  So, like, I mean, it's so funny how, you know, like, I mean, if you just do like a YouTube search for like courageous preachers and courageous sermons, you know, like, so often, if I had a dollar for every time, I hear some pastor, you know, just railing on the men in the church.
[00:16:41]  You know, you sleazy, lazy, you know, you're.
[00:16:45]  With your foreign problems.
[00:16:47]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:16:48]  You're disgusting, you're lazy.
[00:16:49]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:16:50]  You're boys who can shave, right?
[00:16:52]  If we had a dollar.
[00:16:53]  And everybody's like, amen.
[00:16:55]  Amen.
[00:16:55]  And I'm thinking that's courageous.
[00:16:58]  It doesn't sound like it took much courage because I hear a roaring applause in the background.
[00:17:03]  You want to hear a pastor get up there and say, I know you're being lazy housewives and you're disrespecting your husbands.
[00:17:09]  Yeah, it's not going to go over so big.
[00:17:11]  Right.
[00:17:11]  That would take some courage.
[00:17:13]  I would take it like when I want to be inspired by courageous men, I like to read, you know, just the first chapter of Amos that starts off with, you know, calling women cows.
[00:17:23]  You know, like that's, I'm like, wow, 2020.
[00:17:25]  That's courage.
[00:17:26]  I would say that I'm not sure that I think that style of preaching is super effective in any direction.
[00:17:33]  So, yes, it could be courageous, but it might not be effective.
[00:17:37]  Yeah.
[00:17:38]  So, I'm not saying you have to use that tone, but the fact that, like, Amos, a man, is, and, but that's what you're getting at is that it's not about the man, it's about the word.
[00:17:46]  It's the word of God.
[00:17:47]  Amos had the word of God.
[00:17:50]  And so the credibility doesn't rest ultimately with the messenger.
[00:17:54]  It rests with the message.
[00:17:56]  And I can't help but think that some of this is just the outflowing implications of our man centered churches, our man centered ministries, our man centered theology.
[00:18:05]  That if it's all about meeting felt needs, well, then eventually, if it's all about the people and not about God as it goes to the people in the pews, well, eventually that's going to affect the pulpit.
[00:18:18]  Meaning that the person in the pulpit, the authority begins to rest on him, the man, rather than the message.
[00:18:25]  And so I think a lot of times men, male pastors, don't feel like they can really call out some of the sins that the Bible very clearly addresses in women because they think that they don't have the credentials to do so by virtue of not being a woman.
[00:18:39]  But ultimately, that entire sentiment, what it does in effect is it transfers the authority from the word to the man.
[00:18:48]  Yeah, to the person.
[00:18:49]  So one thing that's interesting about that is that.

=== Shared Surrender to Flesh (03:49) ===

[00:18:52]  I'm a woman, so I can call out women on their sins, but I can tell you that it doesn't go better.
[00:18:58]  Like, it's not like just because you're a woman and you say, Listen, I also have toddlers and you need to get up and deal with this.
[00:19:07]  Like, you can't, you can't.
[00:19:08]  Like, if someone says, You know, I woke up and my toddler had a dirty diaper and so I just hid in my bed for an hour.
[00:19:14]  Well, I can be like, You know what?
[00:19:16]  I've woken up and had a toddler with a dirty diaper also.
[00:19:18]  And your job is to get up and go handle that.
[00:19:21]  And it doesn't matter because, Because what they're saying you have to have experienced is exactly what they're doing.
[00:19:27]  You have to have stumbled exactly the way they have and not see any solution to it.
[00:19:32]  That's what's required.
[00:19:34]  Because the fact that I've lived through things doesn't make it more attractive to women who don't want to actually hear the answer to it.
[00:19:42]  That's super helpful.
[00:19:44]  It reminds me of Jesus.
[00:19:45]  He's a merciful high priest because he too has been tempted.
[00:19:49]  But he associates with the lowly not because he shares in our sin, but because he's shared in a commonality of temptation experiences.
[00:19:57]  So what you're saying is that what sadly many women in the church today are wanting is not even a shared experience.
[00:20:06]  Experience, even that is kind of a veil for what they really want is a shared surrender to the flesh.
[00:20:13]  Would you agree with that?
[00:20:15]  It has to be you also are stuck in the same mud with me.
[00:20:19]  Not like you know the way to get out of this and you're giving me a hand.
[00:20:23]  It's like I don't want an escape, I don't want to get out.
[00:20:28]  I want to be here, which you actually see in things all over the internet.
[00:20:32]  Like, you know, there are always these little posts of people being like, here's 20 things you should never have said to your friend who had a miscarriage.
[00:20:40]  Right.
[00:20:40]  Or here, where they're itemizing all the time what you may not do to me because the privileged position has been switched to be the person who's actively in sin or in a problem in some way.
[00:20:53]  That's the one, that's the privileged position.
[00:20:56]  The people who are not in the problem are the ones that we perceive as being sinning.
[00:21:01]  You know, someone who reaches out their hand to you saying, all things work together for good will be like, you disgust me, you heartless.
[00:21:10]  You know, like if you quoted that at a time like this, you know, right.
[00:21:14]  You're being insensitive.
[00:21:15]  Yeah.
[00:21:16]  No, you're right.
[00:21:16]  So, like, privilege has shifted to the one who is in the muck and the mire.
[00:21:21]  And with privilege, of course, in our culture today, I mean, what you're speaking to is more generally, it's not just related to women, but on the whole, with privilege in our culture today comes power.
[00:21:32]  So, the power, the one who holds the power is the one who is.
[00:21:36]  The one in the sin.
[00:21:37]  That's right.
[00:21:37]  The one in the problem is the one with the power about how everybody else ought to get them out of it.
[00:21:42]  And I have told, I have teenagers, and we always laugh about this because sometimes if you're like, okay, Somebody's in a bad mood and say you're talking to them about it or you're teasing them about it, and they'll be like, Mom, it's not helping.
[00:21:57]  You know, like this isn't helping.
[00:21:58]  Your efforts to make me overcome this are not helping.
[00:22:01]  And we always laugh about this.
[00:22:02]  They laugh also.
[00:22:03]  I just said, That's great.
[00:22:05]  If you know what will help, then why don't you go handle it yourself?
[00:22:08]  Because, of course, of course, I'm not going to have the, like, of course, me saying, All right, we got to get past this.
[00:22:15]  Of course, I don't always know exactly what is the thing that will pull you out of it.
[00:22:19]  But in the absence of you handling it, I'm having to try.
[00:22:23]  Right.
[00:22:24]  So, if you have the perfect knowledge about how to get a woman who's going through a grief to not be bitter at everyone and to not whatever, well, then go ahead and handle it yourself.
[00:22:35]  You shouldn't be just telling everyone else how to do it.
[00:22:38]  Right.
[00:22:38]  Right.
[00:22:39]  Yeah, that's good.
[00:22:39]  You keep using this phrase, like, get out of it, get out of it.

=== Weeping With Those Who Mourn (08:42) ===

[00:22:42]  And it just keeps making me think of, well, it just makes me think of, like, in our culture today, in the church, sadly, is no exception, but one of the most esteemed.
[00:22:52]  Virtue seems to be empathy.
[00:22:54]  So, like when you say, get me out of it, whereas you've said multiple times now, what many women sadly want is when they're in it, and the proverbial it being sin, weakness, struggling, suffering, difficult.
[00:23:07]  It's this quicksand.
[00:23:09]  And when someone is in that quicksand, rather than a helping hand to get them out, what they want is for somebody else not to get them out, but to get in.
[00:23:18]  Not to like sympathy is to suffer with, but empathy is to suffer.
[00:23:24]  In.
[00:23:25]  And so I think that that's not just particular to women, but our culture as a whole right now is just all about empathy, empathy, empathy.
[00:23:32]  Just even watching the DNC.
[00:23:34]  I mean, if I, you know, if we could, if we played a drinking game and you had to take a swig every time the word empathy was said by Michelle Obama and everybody else, like we'd be plastic.
[00:23:43]  You know, I'd be disqualified from being an elder.
[00:23:46]  Could you talk about that?
[00:23:49]  Yeah, I know I'm going to get the details of this wrong because it's been quite a while since I read Pilgrim's Progress.
[00:23:54]  But I should have because now I'm going to cite it anyways.
[00:23:57]  All right.
[00:23:58]  I think it's Christian and hopeful who end up in Doubter's Castle.
[00:24:02]  Like they end up locked up.
[00:24:05]  And it's like they're stuck in there because they went off of the way, and things are so they're in a big tangle, right?
[00:24:11]  They're doubting everything, it's a terrible time.
[00:24:14]  Uh, I think it's the giant despair's castle, and they're in there.
[00:24:18]  I think it might be some other character, Mr. Greatheart, or someone who comes there.
[00:24:24]  But that character who comes is the one who he doesn't come in there to curl up with them and be sad with them, he comes in there to rebuke them and tell them that the key is in their pocket, like you have the key to get out of here.
[00:24:37]  What are you doing?
[00:24:40]  And I think that that's the problem is that we've taken it as a great thing that empathy is for someone who is not currently locked in Doubter's Castle to go in there and sit and weep with them.
[00:24:52]  But if you actually know the answer, if you know Christ, if you know the answer, then you're being awful to go just sit in there and weep with them.
[00:25:02]  That's really unkind.
[00:25:05]  And so, yeah, I think Christians just need to have a thicker skin.
[00:25:10]  About being accused of being unkind when what you're offering is kindness.
[00:25:14]  You know, if you think, but Christ, this is kindness, this is mercy.
[00:25:19]  But we're so vulnerable to being told that we're being unkind or that we're not.
[00:25:23]  Like that's a thing that stresses Christians out.
[00:25:26]  So consequently, it's used all the time on us, right?
[00:25:30]  Like you're told that all the time.
[00:25:32]  So, well, you have to get a thicker skin about that.
[00:25:36]  Yeah, I completely agree.
[00:25:38]  Yeah, I think we often want just a fellow cellmate.
[00:25:44]  As we're rotting in jail, rather than actually someone being an extension of Christ Himself fulfilling the role of a deliverer.
[00:25:52]  We're called to be an extension of Christ where we are delivering people from bondage and from sin.
[00:26:01]  But in our culture today, people don't want deliverance.
[00:26:04]  It reminds you of Jesus when He says, Do you want to be well?
[00:26:08]  In John chapter 5, the man who's lame at the pool of Bethesda.
[00:26:12]  And it seems like such a pointless question, but.
[00:26:16]  It's Jesus, so there's probably a point, you know, but do you want to be well?
[00:26:20]  Implying not everybody does.
[00:26:22]  Not everybody wants to be well.
[00:26:25]  Certainly not.
[00:26:26]  They don't.
[00:26:27]  I also think about, like you said, like mourning with those who mourn.
[00:26:29]  So that empathetic, you know, just join me in my misery, join me in my pain, don't actually help me, don't help me get out, suffer not with, but in, get in the muck and mire.
[00:26:39]  It makes me think of, you know, another, you know, very, very, very often used scripture today, Romans 12, you know, mourn with those who mourn.
[00:26:46]  But I can't help but think that the first half of the verse is, Rejoice with those who rejoice.
[00:26:51]  And if we look at, you know, if we just cross reference over to 1 Corinthians 13 with rejoicing, we see that love, that is biblical love, the love that imitates God who is love, rejoices, but it rejoices only in the truth.
[00:27:06]  And so if we took that rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn, and we say, but true Christian rejoicing only rejoices in the truth, and then we just apply that to the second half of the verse, meaning that we should only mourn in the truth, then one of the first questions we have to ask.
[00:27:21]  I feel like, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the first questions we should ask our fellow brother or sister in Christ if they're mourning is Are you mourning in the truth?
[00:27:29]  Because I can only mourn with you if you're mourning righteously.
[00:27:34]  If we overturn Roe versus Wade, there would be millions of people mourning in our nation the loss of their legal right to murder their children.
[00:27:42]  But as Christians, obviously, we don't mourn with them.
[00:27:44]  So it's got to be the implicit component of mourn with those who mourn mourn with those who mourn righteously.
[00:27:54]  And if we're mourning with someone who is mourning sinfully, then we're really just validating and affirming their sin.
[00:28:01]  Would you agree with that sentiment?
[00:28:04]  Yes, although I still like so.
[00:28:05]  Saying someone goes through a real great major loss or tragedy, Christians are called to mourn with that person, and we're also called to keep them on the path of godly mourning.
[00:28:16]  So it doesn't mean like if a woman loses her husband and she starts to say something or starts to be angry with God, that you're like, Well, I'm out of here.
[00:28:25]  You know, you need to have companionship with people.
[00:28:27]  Yes.
[00:28:28]  You know, focusing you on Christ.
[00:28:30]  But a thing that I would say that happens more commonly now is people say, Don't talk to me.
[00:28:36]  About that's, I mentioned that already.
[00:28:39]  You know, all things work together for good.
[00:28:40]  People like, don't talk about that kind of thing.
[00:28:42]  Don't talk about Christ at a time like this.
[00:28:44]  Like, just feel my pain.
[00:28:46]  Don't try to say, don't try to say godly things.
[00:28:49]  And one of the things, and they often say, because the Bible says, weep with those who weep, right?
[00:28:54]  They're like, so that's what I'm doing.
[00:28:56]  I'm going to weep with those who weep.
[00:28:58]  And one of the things I think is so interesting about that is, have you ever met a Christian who really knows the Lord, who really loves the Lord, who could.
[00:29:09]  Point to Christ and talk of Christ in the face of a tragedy and not be weeping with those who weep.
[00:29:15]  Right.
[00:29:16]  Like, I think, you know, someone loses a child and you go to talk to them about our Savior and our hope in Christ.
[00:29:24]  It's not like that's a feelingless event.
[00:29:26]  Right.
[00:29:26]  Like, you're talking about our dearest hope and our fiercest love.
[00:29:31]  It's not like you're talking about the thing that doesn't matter at all.
[00:29:34]  It's not platitudes.
[00:29:35]  It's not.
[00:29:36]  And of course, I can imagine a time that a Christian who's too afraid of what's happening would just want to paper some.
[00:29:44]  Bible verses onto it and leave so they could get out of there.
[00:29:48]  But that's just someone who's not going to be helped no matter what.
[00:29:51]  Right.
[00:29:51]  Like that's someone who's just too fearful to be helped in that time.
[00:29:55]  Yeah.
[00:29:55]  But all the real tragedies I can think of, you have a real Christian who loves the Lord, they're weeping with those who weep while they're pointing to Christ.
[00:30:04]  Right.
[00:30:04]  They're, you know, like there's no way that they can do that while not caring.
[00:30:08]  Right.
[00:30:09]  And so that's why even your weeping is truthful in that moment.
[00:30:14]  Right.
[00:30:14]  Yep, no, I completely agree.
[00:30:16]  And what you're describing, even some of the hypothetical situations you threw out were, again, things that I would categorize as mourning or weeping righteously, like the loss of a child or the loss of your husband.
[00:30:30]  Certainly those are good things.
[00:30:32]  Whereas sadly, there are moments where what's being mourned is something that the loss of something that in Christ we were never actually even meant to have, something that we're supposed to lose, like self.
[00:30:46]  You know, and like I've, you know, like so the woman, you know, who's weeping the loss of her own identity because now she's a mother.
[00:30:54]  And, you know, so, but yeah, that's great.
[00:30:58]  Yes, I don't, I even there though, I think a Christian coming alongside to point them to Christ is still going to be talking about their most closely held, dearest beliefs.
[00:31:09]  It's compassionate to do that.
[00:31:12]  It's not like that's missing compassion that you're engaged in the deeper discussion with someone, even if they're having a petty problem.
[00:31:20]  Yeah, that's good.
[00:31:21]  Yeah, because God cares about our little problems.

=== Teaching Holy Habits in Word (11:58) ===

[00:31:25]  Our petty problems.
[00:31:26]  Yeah, amen.
[00:31:27]  Because, well, because really, in the big scheme of things, with the God of the universe, they're all petty problems.
[00:31:32]  That's right.
[00:31:33]  Okay, so here's another question Should women teach other women?
[00:31:36]  So, whatever form of women discipling women, because I know you believe in, so whether there's a formal women's ministry or not, that's a different subject.
[00:31:47]  But certainly, we both believe that women should be discipling other women.
[00:31:53]  And so, in that discipleship, whatever the context may be, In that discipleship, should there be a lot of emphasis on women teaching other women doctrines, like theology proper, teaching them about the Trinity or the two natures of Christ?
[00:32:14]  Or should there be kind of an intentional focus in the teaching with women teaching other women?
[00:32:24]  Should it be more regulated to teaching things that specifically relate to women?
[00:32:27]  And my question is coming from.
[00:32:29]  Just to give you a heads up, my question is coming from Titus 2, but this could be too narrow of a reading of the text.
[00:32:37]  And so I'm open to your pushback.
[00:32:40]  But Titus 2, starting verse 3, says, Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine.
[00:32:49]  They are to teach.
[00:32:50]  So there is a teaching capacity.
[00:32:51]  They are to teach what is good.
[00:32:53]  And so, verse 4 now, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled, pure, working at home.
[00:33:01]  Kind and submissive to their own husbands that the word of God may not be reviled.
[00:33:07]  Would you see that verse 3 and 4 of Titus 2 as this is what women should teach other women and hold that real tight, like almost exclusively teaching these things?
[00:33:18]  Or would you have a category for a bunch of women in the church getting together and a woman teaching them, we're going to teach doctrine of God?
[00:33:27]  What do you think of that?
[00:33:28]  Okay, I think that this is actually.
[00:33:32]  Like, I just want to be clear that I don't think scripture is overdoing itself on clarity on this, which means that I would probably really have a problem.
[00:33:42]  Like, I think it could be way more harmful to have a situation where the pastor is saying the women are not allowed to talk theology together.
[00:33:50]  I think that that's just creepy in a way, right?
[00:33:53]  Like, to be like, we're banning you from these discussions or whatever, that would be weird.
[00:33:58]  But I can say, practically speaking, so I mentioned already that I'm heavily involved in the Bible reading challenge.
[00:34:05]  This is.
[00:34:06]  This is a thing that the women in our women's ministry, this is a thing that the women in our church do, which is hosting this Bible reading challenge where we're encouraging one another to be in the Word.
[00:34:17]  We're pushing, we're trying to get women who've never read their Bibles to be reading their Bibles.
[00:34:22]  We're really working to get women in the Word.
[00:34:25]  We do specifically not teach doctrine.
[00:34:30]  And that's intentional.
[00:34:32]  And the intention there is that we intend to teach a love of the Word.
[00:34:37]  We want to teach the habits of being in the Word.
[00:34:40]  We do not want to get into trying to teach everyone doctrine.
[00:34:44]  Does that mean that we don't talk about doctrine?
[00:34:47]  No, it doesn't.
[00:34:47]  It's like table fellowship.
[00:34:49]  We do talk about doctrine.
[00:34:50]  We do talk about what does this mean?
[00:34:52]  What's this about?
[00:34:53]  Ask your pastor.
[00:34:54]  Talk to, you know, like, look into it.
[00:34:56]  So I have no problem at all with women being very, I want women to be very word centric and doctrine literate.
[00:35:05]  So I am very, very excited.
[00:35:08]  Favor like all of our daughters are receiving the same education as our sons.
[00:35:13]  We want them learning doctrine and we want them learning theology and we want them to be well educated and thoughtful.
[00:35:19]  So, it's not like I don't ever want to be perceived as saying women don't need, you know, like, because you'll see people now saying things like women need theology too.
[00:35:30]  And it's like, well, of course they do, because women need God and we need to understand God as He's revealed Himself.
[00:35:36]  So, of course.
[00:35:38]  But do women need to be trying to be pastors, like trying to look through all the commentaries and do all this?
[00:35:45]  And I would just say no, because this is going to be a weird example.
[00:35:51]  Just stick with me for a second.
[00:35:53]  So, when my husband goes to work and he's out doing all this on behalf of our family, he brings home a paycheck.
[00:36:02]  Well, I translate that paycheck into hot food on the table, right?
[00:36:08]  Like, I translate his work into something that blesses my family, that blesses the children.
[00:36:15]  But when I bless the children with a hot meal, I'm blessing them with the love of their father, right?
[00:36:21]  Like, the love of their father elsewhere.
[00:36:24]  Is something that I have translated into physical comfort and love for them.
[00:36:30]  So I think, in many ways, in a really healthy, functioning church, what you have happening is a godly pastor preaching the word, and the men receive that and do one kind of work with that, and the women do the translation work.
[00:36:47]  And it doesn't mean that we don't need to know what, like, we need to know the thing that we're translating, right?
[00:36:54]  You know, like, we need to know that, but we're not, that's not our emphasis, is not.
[00:36:58]  On that part, so we joke that.
[00:37:00]  So, the Bible reading challenge we have, I think it's close to 25,000 women in the Facebook group doing the Bible reading right now.
[00:37:08]  But it's like a hospitality ministry of the women in our church.
[00:37:12]  But we're spending the money in the bank of all these women being taught from the word, being right, like we're the money that we're spending in this hospitality is the money of male leadership and teaching, right?
[00:37:27]  And like that's what we're doing, yeah.
[00:37:29]  So, we're not trying to start like a Doctrine class for women, but we absolutely are in favor of women knowing what they think about doctrine.
[00:37:41]  And I would say that when we shifted this thinking to focusing on getting women in the word, the Titus 2 things, specifically Titus 2 things, came out so much more naturally.
[00:37:55]  When our focus was getting women in the word, then you had women saying, Well, I would love to throw a party at my house to encourage people.
[00:38:04]  You had people trying to use their hospitality for a goal.
[00:38:07]  You had women encouraging one another about their lives with babies because the goal is that you'll be in God's word.
[00:38:13]  So, you have, you know, someone says, I'm struggling with reading every day because now I have two babies.
[00:38:19]  There'll be a huge comment thread of women being like, I listen first thing in the morning when I'm nursing the baby, and this is what I do.
[00:38:26]  And it was a ton of practical advice from people who also love God's word.
[00:38:32]  So, I guess the only thing I would say is to be very careful to not start making weird gender divisions that God doesn't.
[00:38:40]  Make because I do think we need to.
[00:38:44]  I do think that women need to understand theology, but I do also think that there's a real danger in women trying to become theology wonks because that's not what we're called to.
[00:38:54]  We're called to translating the things that we've been taught into culture building, kingdom building, home building work, and that should be our emphasis.
[00:39:05]  Yeah, I completely agree.
[00:39:06]  I think for me, the question was coming from a place of just thinking that.
[00:39:11]  Not for a second doubting the need for women to know theology, discuss theology, be applying theology, talking about theology.
[00:39:21]  I think for me, it's just, I just have, I'd like to think it's a holy suspicion when women gravitate towards, you know, and I'm sure we're thinking of some of the same women in the evangelical public sphere, but it's like, you know, this woman is like, okay, but what is this conference even over?
[00:39:40]  What is she talking about?
[00:39:41]  Like, she's talking about theology proper.
[00:39:43]  And it's like something like theology proper, like because, so agreeing with you, because there isn't some hardline distinction between men and women on this issue, because there's one God who eternally exists in three persons and we share one Bible.
[00:39:59]  Why do you have to be taught this subject by a woman?
[00:40:03]  You know what I mean?
[00:40:05]  Like, what's the.
[00:40:06]  Why is the Lord's Day, the male pastor preaching the text on the Lord's Day, talking about theology proper?
[00:40:13]  Why do we need something.
[00:40:15]  Why does it have to come from a woman?
[00:40:19]  You see what I'm saying?
[00:40:21]  Yep.
[00:40:21]  And I'll do things.
[00:40:23]  One is I think your suspicion is accurate because a lot of the time that is not a standalone event.
[00:40:30]  It's part of a fast break for the pulpit, right?
[00:40:34]  Like it's part, there's a trajectory happening.
[00:40:38]  So if there's like some sweet lady in your church who's like, you know what, I need to read, I need to brush up on what I believe about the Trinity.
[00:40:46]  So she's reading a book on the Trinity.
[00:40:48]  There's zero.
[00:40:49]  Threat to anything there because she's just like, I've realized there's something I don't understand about my faith and I want to flesh that out.
[00:40:56]  That's good and wholesome.
[00:40:57]  Awesome.
[00:40:58]  Right.
[00:40:58]  But when it's like, women, we have to rise up and teach one another the attributes of God.
[00:41:04]  Right.
[00:41:05]  You're like, well, what are you doing?
[00:41:07]  Like, what's the trajectory of this?
[00:41:09]  And why are you doing that?
[00:41:10]  I will, you would enjoy this.
[00:41:12]  I was at a conference sometime where in the QA and a women's thing, they asked, what book has most influenced you?
[00:41:23]  For the glory of God, other than the Bible, and uh, this was a very good group where it was way cooler for it to have been a theology book, right?
[00:41:36]  So, I think one of the answers was, uh, you know, the attributes of God, A.W. Pink, the attributes of God, and you know, it was that kind of like this is uh, intellectual knowledge of God, and and knowing that it would provoke something, and still doing it anyways because I thought it would be funny, as I said, it is.
[00:41:57]  I did say that's like saying, What was your best conversation ever?
[00:42:00]  Like, there have been a lot of books that have influenced me.
[00:42:02]  I don't want to, you know, but I said I would say most recently, the tartine bread cookbook.
[00:42:09]  And the amount of shock and awe that you would say something like that when talking about the glory of God.
[00:42:16]  Right.
[00:42:17]  And this was from a very conservative group that's very all about resisting the influence of Beth Moore and resisting the influence.
[00:42:23]  Like, it's all about not.
[00:42:26]  Not letting women into the pulpit.
[00:42:28]  But the fact that I would say that a cookbook had been influential in my life was like, what do you think?
[00:42:36]  Like, it so clearly came off as horrifically flippant and reckless.
[00:42:42]  It was funny.
[00:42:44]  I listened to that moment and I know which conference you're referencing.
[00:42:47]  How did you know it was listenable?
[00:42:49]  Well, I either listened to it, I can't remember, or I listened to you talk about it on some kind of podcast format, but I heard this story and I thought it was.
[00:42:59]  I thought it was really funny, also.
[00:43:02]  That's something I appreciate about you, your willingness you take after your dad, your willingness to just, I think I'm going to ruffle a couple feathers here.
[00:43:11]  Half the crowd was clearly delighted.
[00:43:14]  This is interesting.
[00:43:16]  And the other half was really scowling at me.
[00:43:20]  Such a funny moment.
[00:43:22]  I bet.

=== True Confession Changes Direction (10:36) ===

[00:43:23]  Okay, so I got one more big question that I want to take just a moment to hear your thoughts on.
[00:43:31]  I know that my wife, In particular, and other women in our church have asked this question to me, saying, Hey, you're going to interview Rachel, ask her this question.
[00:43:42]  So they wanted to hear your thoughts because I think on What Have You, your podcast with your sister Becca, there was an episode or two where from time to time you guys just discuss the concept of women confessing their sins to one another.
[00:43:59]  So this is the question What are your thoughts on accountability groups for women?
[00:44:04]  And should women regularly confess their sins to other women?
[00:44:08]  If not, what's the proper context?
[00:44:11]  How should that be done?
[00:44:14]  Okay.
[00:44:15]  I just think women need to get a lot more Protestant up in there and realize that we actually have Jesus.
[00:44:23]  Like, you don't need to get in a little cubby.
[00:44:26]  I mean, we're not Catholic.
[00:44:27]  You don't need to get somewhere and confess your sins to a priest and have him pass it on.
[00:44:32]  You need to confess your sins to Christ.
[00:44:35]  Now, if there's something that you need accountability on because you actually feel like this is an area where I'm really keep on failing and I need help, that is different.
[00:44:46]  I'm not trying to say you don't ever need counsel or encouragement or whatever from other people.
[00:44:52]  But I would say your first response should be to look for that accountability from your husband, which women frequently do not do because frequently these things are about their husbands.
[00:45:04]  It's frequently a Already letting someone else into the marriage in a way that they should not be.
[00:45:12]  And to confess to your husband something is a lot more like jumping off the high dive.
[00:45:17]  It's someone who will be there to see if you're fit.
[00:45:20]  Like I've used this example before, but when I realized I think women can lie about all kinds of things.
[00:45:26]  And when I had four really little kids, I said a lot of the time I was overwhelmed.
[00:45:31]  You know, I had twin infants and two toddlers.
[00:45:34]  And I would be like, I'm just really overwhelmed.
[00:45:37]  You know, like I'm overwhelmed.
[00:45:39]  And at some point, I think I just, it just, the Lord, you know, the Holy Spirit, He's kind.
[00:45:44]  He shows us things.
[00:45:45]  I just saw it that nobody's going to challenge me on this.
[00:45:49]  You know, like if I say I'm overwhelmed, who has the nerve to tell me, knock it off, suck it up, be a, you know what I mean?
[00:45:56]  Like nobody.
[00:45:57]  Luke was, of course, very encouraging, but he, even he wasn't going to argue with me that you're not overwhelmed right there.
[00:46:03]  And so I actually needed to confess to him to say, you know what?
[00:46:08]  I'm not going to say that anymore.
[00:46:09]  This is what God has given me to do.
[00:46:11]  This is my normal workload now.
[00:46:13]  Like, this is normal.
[00:46:14]  And I'm not going to say that anymore.
[00:46:16]  Well, telling him that, man, I was actually burning my bridge all the way.
[00:46:21]  That's right.
[00:46:22]  Like, I actually removed a.
[00:46:26]  I like, or it's sort of like if a woman is lying about having a headache when what the real issue is, is that she doesn't feel like doing her work.
[00:46:33]  Well, nobody can hold you accountable on that because they can't actually know.
[00:46:37]  Right.
[00:46:38]  But if you go tell your husband, forgive me for lying about having a headache because I just didn't want to deal with bedtime.
[00:46:45]  Well, you've really burned a bridge there.
[00:46:47]  Like, you're at that's actual accountability.
[00:46:49]  Yeah, you're right.
[00:46:51]  And my dad says all the time about this like, accountability groups for teen boys where they can all get together and tell each other that they struggled with porn again.
[00:47:00]  He's like, there's no accountability there.
[00:47:01]  Try telling your mother.
[00:47:02]  You know, like, go tell someone outside of this temptation set what you're struggling with, and you will get a whole other level of accountability.
[00:47:10]  Yeah.
[00:47:12]  You start, you know, and I think that that's the thing is that we like the idea of accountability, but we're finding the easiest possible places to get it that won't challenge us.
[00:47:22]  Right.
[00:47:22]  So I would say start with your husband.
[00:47:25]  Don't think you confess your sins to your friends and do a quick little litmus test of, Why do I want to tell this friend?
[00:47:34]  Right.
[00:47:34]  Like, what am I actually thinking I'm going to get out of this?
[00:47:37]  Because if you're telling a friend who is going to slap you upside the face for doing that, you know, then you know you're actually looking for accountability.
[00:47:47]  You're actually looking for something.
[00:47:50]  But if you're wanting to tell a friend who will be like, oh my word, I totally did the same thing this week.
[00:47:54]  Right.
[00:47:55]  Yes, I totally understand.
[00:47:56]  And I'll pray for you too, but with zero actual challenge in that relationship.
[00:48:02]  So that would be how I would say it is.
[00:48:05]  You know, a litmus test.
[00:48:06]  I think you want friends who are like, I would call them running partners in the sense that they are also pursuing Christ.
[00:48:13]  They are also running after Christ.
[00:48:15]  Right.
[00:48:16]  And that they have as little tolerance for your sin as they do for their own.
[00:48:21]  That's what we want in friendships.
[00:48:23]  So if you reach out to someone like that with a problem, right, and you're like, here it is, you know, and I recently just heard from a woman who was telling me she's, In her group of four accountability partners, what they're talking about, I mean, I assume they talk about other things.
[00:48:43]  I don't know.
[00:48:44]  But the thing that she was contacting me about, what they're talking about is their own grief and the way they feel about their husband's struggles with porn.
[00:48:53]  Right, right.
[00:48:55]  So I'm like, that's a hot mess, everyone.
[00:48:57]  Like, this is a real problem.
[00:48:59]  But you're not doing anything to make it better by calling up all your girlfriends.
[00:49:04]  Right.
[00:49:05]  Let me call and disrespect my husband to all of you so that you all know.
[00:49:09]  I mean, it's a horrible tangle.
[00:49:11]  And in those cases, I would say just cut line and get out of that.
[00:49:15]  Yeah, that's really helpful.
[00:49:17]  I completely agree.
[00:49:19]  So I completely agree with that.
[00:49:20]  Super helpful.
[00:49:21]  Thank you.
[00:49:22]  It's not even a pushback, it's just an addition.
[00:49:24]  I think the one thing that I would add is so you're saying that litmus test, like, let's, you know, there's a couple things to take into account when I'm contemplating whether or not I should confess something and which person, you know, who I should confess this to.
[00:49:37]  And you spoke of that in the vein of accountability.
[00:49:42]  Is this person going to call me out?
[00:49:44]  Is this person, if it's really easy to confess to this person, it's probably not a person that I need to confess it to because confession hurts.
[00:49:52]  It's hard.
[00:49:54]  And like you said, you're burning bridges, you're giving up.
[00:49:59]  You're calling someone to hold you accountable.
[00:50:00]  The only thing I wanted to add to that is just so when we're doing that litmus test, trying to discern who's the right person to confess to, and we're taking into account who will hold me accountable.
[00:50:10]  I think also just another litmus test, I just think of Bonhoeffer and saying that one of the reasons why we confess our sins one to another, that we might pray for one another, that we might be healed, is because at the end of the day, you started out by saying we confess to Christ.
[00:50:25]  We're Protestant and hearty yes and amen.
[00:50:28]  But I've noticed that my reluctance or my complete negligence to confess to my fellow men sometimes is representative, often is representative of the fact that I'm not even really confessing it to Christ.
[00:50:43]  Meaning that if I'm not comfortable to confess this to anyone, so there's a lot of debate to be had for which men, which women to confess to.
[00:50:52]  But if I'm not willing to confess this to anyone as far as a fellow man, am I really confessing it to Christ?
[00:50:58]  And so I think sometimes a Protestant goes too far saying, well, I'm confessing to Christ, but my question would be, but if you're not confessing to anyone horizontally, you might internally not truly be even confessing it to Christ.
[00:51:11]  Does that make sense?
[00:51:12]  Yeah, it does make sense, but I guess I would bring up something that I think is interesting here.
[00:51:18]  If you're confessing it to Christ, if you know it's a sin, you've confessed it to Christ, then Confessing it to other people is actually a testimony to Christ.
[00:51:29]  Right?
[00:51:30]  You're like, I have got this, it has been put right with Christ.
[00:51:34]  And yeah, you're not trying to keep a super secret like you're not a sinner or you don't have problems.
[00:51:40]  But that's, I think that what we're supposed to do with one another is that free and easy acknowledgement of our own sinner's relationship to a Savior.
[00:51:52]  Right?
[00:51:52]  Like, it is the fact that, yes, I like, I am failing here and I am confessing it and I'm getting it right and Christ is faithful and this is whatever.
[00:52:01]  But I think that many people are trying to use, like, they're trying to use their friends as a way of dealing with the sin without ever, like, there's some kind of catharsis that you said it out loud that you did this and you're using that as a stand in for actual confession.
[00:52:16]  I completely agree.
[00:52:17]  It's funny.
[00:52:18]  It's like on one hand, there's like two things that, you know, you hold in tension.
[00:52:21]  On one hand, there's a, um, A tendency, a leaning towards, I'd rather confess to Christ than tell any person because he's far more merciful than people tend to be.
[00:52:37]  On the other hand, there's like, I'd rather confess this to my friends than to Christ because Christ is, so he's on one, there's the appeal because he's merciful, there's the fear because he's also far more holy.
[00:52:52]  And so there's this sense of like, I don't mind confessing this to this group of friends because they're not holy at all.
[00:52:58]  You know what I mean?
[00:52:59]  Because they're.
[00:52:59]  But it's so odd that Jesus is the one who already knows about it.
[00:53:03]  He's the one who already knows.
[00:53:05]  And so the reality is telling him is a commitment to breaking ties with the sin.
[00:53:13]  Yeah.
[00:53:13]  Right?
[00:53:14]  Like, and otherwise it's like, and that's the thing when I was talking about Bernie Bridges.
[00:53:20]  That's the heart of it.
[00:53:21]  Right?
[00:53:21]  Like, true confession to Christ is turning your back on your sin, saying, I'm changing direction here.
[00:53:29]  Right.
[00:53:30]  And that's what I think is just really the key about whether or not you should talk to other friends about it are you actually turning your back on the sin?
[00:53:38]  No, you're absolutely right.
[00:53:39]  When we confess to the omniscient God, we're not informing him.
[00:53:43]  What we're really doing is.
[00:53:43]  Who are we surprising?
[00:53:45]  Right, exactly.
[00:53:45]  So we're not informing him like we do with our fellow man.
[00:53:49]  But what we're really doing is simply agreeing with him.
[00:53:52]  I agree with you, Father, and what you say about this, that you call it sin, you call it vile.
[00:53:57]  And I'm agreeing with you, and I am committing.

=== Bonus Questions and Resources (02:21) ===

[00:54:00]  To actually changing, to repenting.
[00:54:04]  Okay, so thank you so much, Rachel.
[00:54:06]  I want to give you a moment just to tell people how they can follow you, how they can keep up with what you're doing.
[00:54:11]  Tell us about the Bible Reading Challenge.
[00:54:13]  As I told you before we started recording, this episode probably won't air until October, but if you could tell people a little bit about how to follow you, how to keep up with you, if you want to plug a book, tell them about the Bible Reading Challenge, go ahead and do that right now.
[00:54:26]  Sure.
[00:54:27]  You can find me on Instagram as Rachel Jacobick.
[00:54:31]  I'm on Facebook also, but the Bible Reading Challenge is Where it's at, where you do it's year round in the summer, we do the New Testament, and in the academic year, we do the whole Bible.
[00:54:42]  So, if you stick with us any day that you jump in, then that day, a year later, you will have read the New Testament twice, Old Testament once, and a bunch of epistles and things five or six times.
[00:54:54]  So, jump in by all means, and you can find all the details at to the word.com.
[00:55:00]  Great.
[00:55:01]  Well, thanks again so much, Rachel.
[00:55:03]  And for our listeners, if you have not yet become a responder, one of our club members, take this opportunity to go ahead and do that because we're going to.
[00:55:13]  Ask Rachel a couple bonus questions, and that'll be exclusive content for our responders.
[00:55:20]  And so, if you want to check out the bonus questions, and just to whet your appetite, listeners, I'm going to go ahead and say those now.
[00:55:27]  So, the first question is What are some of the distinctions, Rachel, between how you would raise your sons versus how you would raise your daughters?
[00:55:34]  And the second one is Why should Christian women care about beauty and aesthetics, specifically in the realm of their home?
[00:55:42]  And how would you respond to a Christian woman who would say that this is shallow.
[00:55:48]  So, those are our bonus questions.
[00:55:50]  I'm going to go ahead and come back with Rachel and we're going to record those.
[00:55:54]  And we encourage you, if you haven't become a responder with Right Response Ministries, take this opportunity and go ahead and do that.
[00:56:01]  Thanks again, Rachel, so much for coming on the show today.
[00:56:04]  We appreciate it.
[00:56:05]  Thanks so much for listening.
[00:56:07]  But, real quick, before you go, do us a small favor take a moment and leave us a five star review if you enjoyed the show.
[00:56:14]  This is undoubtedly The best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.
[00:56:21]  Thanks so much.