NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How The Church Idolizes Women
Aired: 2022-05-24
Duration: 01:10:42


=== Requesting Five Star Reviews (04:16) ===

[00:00:00]  Hey guys, real quick before we get started, I have a small request.
[00:00:03]  If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show, would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five star review?
[00:00:09]  This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do to ensure that this content gets out to as many people as possible.
[00:00:17]  Thanks.
[00:00:18]  All right, welcome to another exciting episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:21]  I really, really enjoy this conversation with Samuel Say.
[00:00:25]  Samuel Say, he goes by the handle Slow to Email.
[00:00:29]  It's Slow to Write.
[00:00:30]  Slow to Write.
[00:00:31]  You can find him on Instagram, Twitter.
[00:00:34]  Facebook, all over the place.
[00:00:35]  You can read his blog.
[00:00:36]  He's just had a lot of insightful articles and just been a faithful, steady voice over the last two, three, four, five years with all just the craziness with critical race theory, social justice, economic policies that are socialistic, you know, socialism in nature.
[00:00:56]  So he's been really helpful on these things.
[00:00:58]  And he's also had some really good things to say in regards to the recent spike with just.
[00:01:05]  Craziness in our culture surrounding the issue of abortion with the very real possibility of Roe being overturned.
[00:01:14]  So, we talk about abortion.
[00:01:18]  We talk about our nation's idolatry of women, right?
[00:01:22]  We talk about you can worship women or you can save babies, but you can't do both.
[00:01:26]  We talk about the abolitionist perspective position versus an incrementalist position being an immediateism.
[00:01:36]  Versus a gradualistic approach.
[00:01:39]  And he would be more of this gradualistic, and I would be more of the immediateist abolition approach.
[00:01:46]  And so we talk about all those kinds of things.
[00:01:47]  And then we also talk about white supremacy.
[00:01:52]  And we use names.
[00:01:54]  We talk about one of my personal favorite race hustlers, Gavin Ortland, and his recent tweet where he talks about, I can't, but not sure if the church has the courage to come out and condemn white supremacy.
[00:02:05]  So we talk about the race hustlers.
[00:02:07]  We talk about just the gaslighting and the joke.
[00:02:10]  That we see going on right now in our nation and sadly within many leaders in the evangelical church.
[00:02:16]  It's a great conversation.
[00:02:18]  I think you'll enjoy it.
[00:02:19]  Tune in.
[00:02:20]  Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
[00:02:24]  This is Theology Applied.
[00:02:31]  All right.
[00:02:31]  Welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:02:33]  I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.
[00:02:37]  And today I am very privileged to have as a special guest someone that I've tried to get for a while.
[00:02:41]  He's had a lot going on.
[00:02:42]  He just got married.
[00:02:43]  He just got out of, um, Well, he just got out of, I think, North Korea or was it Canada?
[00:02:49]  I can't remember.
[00:02:50]  Basically the same.
[00:02:52]  But anyway, so I finally got him on the show.
[00:02:54]  Samuel says he goes by the handle Slow to Email.
[00:02:56]  No, I'm just saying Slow to Write.
[00:02:58]  Slow to Write.
[00:03:00]  But he got back to me, and I'm honored to have you on here.
[00:03:02]  So, Samuel, introduce yourself to our listeners.
[00:03:05]  Well, I was honored to be here before that intro, and now I'm not quite.
[00:03:10]  No, I'm kidding.
[00:03:12]  No, yeah, it's great to be here.
[00:03:14]  It really is.
[00:03:14]  I'm looking forward to the conversation.
[00:03:16]  I just got married last month.
[00:03:19]  So now I think I have all this wisdom now.
[00:03:21]  I was mentioning to you before that I think I'm ready to write a book on marriage now.
[00:03:25]  So, yeah, you can do that.
[00:03:29]  It's like they just made a movie about Batman two years into being Batman.
[00:03:33]  You know, like there is a market for it.
[00:03:34]  It's like I remember going and I didn't know that background.
[00:03:36]  So I was watching.
[00:03:37]  I was like, this is kind of like a scrawny, kind of weak Batman.
[00:03:42]  And then when I heard that, and so all you have to do is just in the fine print say, my take on marriage.
[00:03:48]  One month in, you know, you don't claim to be an expert, but you can still sell some books, so yeah, no, well, but yeah, it really is an honor to be here.
[00:03:56]  I've been following you on social media for a while, and I've seen many of your guests, so it's really a privilege to be here.
[00:04:02]  So thank you.
[00:04:03]  Cool.
[00:04:03]  Well, it's a privilege to have you.
[00:04:04]  I really appreciate it.
[00:04:05]  And I've heard you, well, I've read some of your articles, but then I've also heard you a couple times on Ali Beth Stuckey.
[00:04:12]  And so that's been great to, I like following her, and it's been great to hear you there.

=== Incrementalism Versus Abolitionism (04:35) ===

[00:04:16]  So let's go ahead and talk about, we're going to talk about a lot of stuff.
[00:04:19]  You and I, we were kind of brainstorming a little bit before we pressed record, but we want to talk about abortion.
[00:04:24]  We want to talk about incrementalism versus abolitionism.
[00:04:28]  And you said you're going to, You're actually working on an article right now on that issue of am I an incrementalist?
[00:04:35]  Am I an abolitionist?
[00:04:37]  And you're working on that in terms of abortion.
[00:04:39]  But let's start with an article that you just recently wrote.
[00:04:43]  Let me pull up the title real quick.
[00:04:45]  It's, you titled it, Does the Pro Life Movement Help Mothers?
[00:04:50]  How old is this?
[00:04:52]  Let's see, May 6th.
[00:04:54]  Yeah.
[00:04:55]  Is that one of your most recent ones on this issue?
[00:04:58]  Yeah, I got a couple of weeks ago.
[00:04:59]  Yeah.
[00:04:59]  Okay, cool.
[00:05:00]  So this is just a couple of weeks old, May 6th.
[00:05:03]  How.
[00:05:04]  Again, the title, does the pro life movement help mothers?
[00:05:08]  And that seems to be the dichotomy that I think you and I would both agree is a false dichotomy, but we want to explain why.
[00:05:14]  But the dichotomy that keeps getting shoved in our faces, and sadly, this is the dichotomy like, well, do you love babies or do you love mothers?
[00:05:20]  Like, are you pro birth or are you pro life?
[00:05:22]  You know, like from womb to tomb.
[00:05:24]  And that's been pushed, that rhetoric's been pushed by Democrats and pro choice, you know, people for a very, very long time.
[00:05:32]  But it seems as though that same rhetoric has been recently picked up by.
[00:05:37]  By pro life guys, even evangelical Christian guys, even Russell Moore guys.
[00:05:44]  What do you think about that, Samuel?
[00:05:46]  Oh, man.
[00:05:49]  I have to kind of relax when I talk about this because I cannot.
[00:05:53]  That argument just is very irritating, especially when it's coming from pro life people or Christians.
[00:06:00]  Whereas you said, this is for decades the pro abortion side has been using this as a talking point.
[00:06:06]  And now you have Christians and pro life people.
[00:06:09]  Embracing this.
[00:06:10]  But you know, not to move away from the topic, but I've been warning about this for a long time in light of critical race theory.
[00:06:17]  This is all a result.
[00:06:19]  All those guys that you mentioned, Russell Moore's, David French's of the world, they've embraced a form of critical race theory, which calls on them to consider other issues, such as so called systemic racism, as just as important as the abortion issue.
[00:06:34]  In fact, you had Tabidi, who has embraced critical race theory, who said, That racism is a much bigger issue in America than abortion is.
[00:06:44]  Well, when you believe that, well, then you have to believe that you can't just be so called pro birth, or you have to be, as you said earlier, holistically pro life or from womb to tomb, because they really believe, well, they claim to believe, I'm trying to be as kind as possible, but also honest, they claim to believe that black people are just at risk of death, really, as pre born babies are, which is ridiculous.
[00:07:12]  So it's coming from critical race theory.
[00:07:13]  And of course, It's a lie.
[00:07:15]  I've said this before, but the only people, the only people in our society where it's legal to kill them across the United States or across Canada is pre born babies, nobody else.
[00:07:31]  Black people who are born have rights.
[00:07:33]  And I mentioned who are born because, of course, Black people who are not born, Black people who are in the womb, get killed enormously.
[00:07:42]  We talk about disparities by race, one of the biggest disparities by race.
[00:07:47]  In America, is of course the abortion rate in black communities.
[00:07:50]  Sadly, abortion and sadly, crime often.
[00:07:54]  But yeah, you're right.
[00:07:56]  Yeah, so so much more that I'm sure I could say about that.
[00:07:58]  But a lot of the reasons why people are embracing this is because of critical race theory and just the idea of social justice thinking within the church today.
[00:08:07]  And it's one of the things I tell people that look, I'm going to be delivering a talk very soon at a pro life event for young people.
[00:08:16]  And one of the things I'm going to be warning them is one of the biggest challenges they're going to have as pro life advocates in America, as Christians, is critical race theory and social justice.
[00:08:25]  That it's growing within the church in many ways, and because of that, it's threatening pro life work within the church.
[00:08:32]  Yep, I agree.
[00:08:33]  Um, you know, you mentioned the BD, um, uh, I always call him Anabuile, but I'm pretty sure it's pronounced Anabuile.
[00:08:40]  Um, but I don't feel much obligation to pronounce made up names correctly, so if it's not your God given name, then I just I'm not quite as, as uh, you know, yeah, as concerned about getting it right.

=== Critical Race Theory Challenges (05:11) ===

[00:08:52]  But the BD Anabuile, um, I remember he was doing a talk, it was a podcast with Matt Chandler, and it was right before.
[00:08:59]  For the 2016 election between Trump and Hillary.
[00:09:03]  And I remember him saying, you know, and I think this gets us into the conversation of this false dichotomy, but I remember him saying, yeah, like, you know, well, yeah, the sanctity of life, you know, and the sanctity of the unborn is near and dear to the heart of God, but God's got a big heart.
[00:09:20]  That was kind of his infamous one-liner: God's got a big heart.
[00:09:24]  God cares about injustice and poverty.
[00:09:27]  And he listed some other things.
[00:09:29]  And I remember, Being, well, I just remember being angry as I was listening to that because I felt like it was so deceptive.
[00:09:36]  And he even said, like, he advocates that we should vote for Hillary because we have a game plan for the Clintons.
[00:09:44]  And for the record, I and many other people had no idea that there was no basis for us to think that Trump was going to keep any of his promises at the time.
[00:09:53]  I think it was a very different thing to vote for Trump in 2020 versus 2016.
[00:09:58]  But at the time, people who were like, well, I don't know about Trump, that's one thing.
[00:10:01]  But to say, like, we should vote for Hillary.
[00:10:04]  Right, like that's different.
[00:10:05]  You can say, I don't know if we should vote for Trump, and that's different than saying we should vote for Hillary.
[00:10:10]  And so I was really bothered by that.
[00:10:13]  Um, but but then he, you know, well, God's got a big heart, and and he's setting up this dichotomy, which you you have to, I don't know if you've noticed this, but number one, you have to put you can't just put like abortion on on one set of the scale, on one side of the scale, and then um, and then you know, like um, economic you know, justice on the like you have to list like 10 things, and and guys instinctively know this because.
[00:10:36]  You're talking about the murder of a child.
[00:10:39]  So, you got it like so.
[00:10:39]  Number one, you can't just do, well, this thing and this thing.
[00:10:42]  So, you have to weigh this down with multiple issues, but and then it kind of blurs it.
[00:10:46]  But if you begin to pick and look at each one, it's like, okay, but does welfare actually help people?
[00:10:52]  Does this actually help people?
[00:10:53]  Does defunding the police actually help people?
[00:10:55]  Is socialism actually helpful?
[00:10:58]  And if when you look at it, it's not even the argument, isn't just, well, the life of the unborn is more important than this.
[00:11:04]  And I would say that's true.
[00:11:05]  The life of the unborn is the issue, it is a more important issue.
[00:11:10]  Even when you couple it over here with 10 issues, I think that this one is nearer to the heart of God than these other ones.
[00:11:15]  But then the biggest problem is not even the matter of which one's more important to the heart of God, but the biggest thing is which one is clear in Scripture, which one is true.
[00:11:28]  We don't have to do a lot of exegetical gymnastics to say you shouldn't murder babies, right?
[00:11:33]  I mean, that's an easy biblical argument to make.
[00:11:36]  But to say that welfare is mandated in Scripture.
[00:11:41]  And that it actually is effective in alleviating poverty, that's, you know what I mean?
[00:11:48]  So it's not, these things aren't equal, but they're also not equally true.
[00:11:51]  Do you have some thoughts on that?
[00:11:53]  Oh, absolutely.
[00:11:55]  There was a pastor in Canada who said that if you don't support, I'm sure you've heard this before, if you don't support paid maternity leave, you're not pro life.
[00:12:07]  So I'm like, wait a minute.
[00:12:08]  Are we, okay, I'm like, that's actually yours.
[00:12:11]  This is going to be controversial for many people, but this is just, I think, biblical truth.
[00:12:16]  We forget a lot about Christ's parables in many ways, including how some of them are dealing with.
[00:12:22]  Our culture.
[00:12:24]  Christ, I believe in the parable of the vineyard.
[00:12:26]  I might be butchering that, but it talks about how does the master not have a right to give people the wages that he wants.
[00:12:37]  And that's Christ saying this, which means that if you own a business, if you own property, you have a right to decide on what you think is fair.
[00:12:46]  If I am a business owner, I would like to be able to give people maternity leave if I think that's best.
[00:12:53]  But it should be up to me.
[00:12:55]  And that's what Christ is.
[00:12:56]  So, if you say to someone that you have to force them, even if you think it's good, but to force them, that's an injustice, according to Christ Himself.
[00:13:04]  Right.
[00:13:05]  To push a little further with that, it's not just up to you.
[00:13:08]  I know what you're saying, but it's actually up to you and the employee.
[00:13:12]  Because in that parable, one of the things that He says is, Did you not just, it's my money, it's my resources.
[00:13:17]  Therefore, I have the right to be generous in whatever proportion and to whoever I want.
[00:13:22]  But He also says, Did you not agree to work for this wage?
[00:13:26]  So, it's not even just like I'm in charge and I get to do what I want.
[00:13:30]  It's beyond that, you entered into a covenant, you know, it is a contract with two parties and you agreed to these terms, right?
[00:13:41]  So, you, I mean, you should have said, well, no, I'm not going to do that, you know.
[00:13:46]  And then some other employer, some other master who does offer, you know, the paid child leave or whatever, then you could go and work for them and say, I don't think your wages are fair.
[00:13:56]  I'm going to go over here.
[00:13:57]  But the moment that you say, Yeah, I agree to these terms.
[00:14:00]  I think that it's fair.
[00:14:02]  Then, you know, yeah.

=== Helping Mothers Beyond Abortion (03:41) ===

[00:14:03]  Yeah.
[00:14:04]  But, you know, yeah, so I completely agree with you.
[00:14:06]  And when, again, even there's one thing to argue that an individual or boss should choose that.
[00:14:12]  But when you say the government has to mandate that as an injustice, because then you're moving someone's rights away from them where it becomes an injustice.
[00:14:20]  And then I also say that, you know, when it comes to the Old Testament, when God is talking about child sacrifice, you never hear God saying, well, hey, you know, the reason why people are killing their babies is because you don't have.
[00:14:33]  Free healthcare, you don't have a welfare system, you don't have all these.
[00:14:35]  It's ridiculous, right?
[00:14:37]  The real issue is should babies be murdered or not?
[00:14:40]  Of course, that's no.
[00:14:41]  So we fight against that, right?
[00:14:43]  And as we've mentioned before, what they're pushing really out of socialism and all these things isn't a bit of an injustice, anyways.
[00:14:50]  So really, they are apathetic towards a real injustice, and then they are promoting an injustice, which is, you know, in many ways showing that when it comes to the issue, oftentimes they're not looking at it from a biblical point of view, they're looking at it from a very man such a point of view, which is why.
[00:15:07]  They're not addressing the abortion issue very clearly.
[00:15:09]  And then, you know, in the article you mentioned, to kind of get back to it, I'm not moving away from that a little bit.
[00:15:15]  One of the things I say, my main argument in the article is this Of course, the pro life movement is good or is helping mothers.
[00:15:22]  And my two main points for that is simply this one, the best thing you can do for a mother is to not kill her baby.
[00:15:30]  That's as simple as that.
[00:15:31]  All right.
[00:15:32]  The best thing you can do for a mother, even if you're not doing everything as a pro life movement does, if all you do is to not kill her baby, right, and to help the baby, You are doing the best you can for a mother.
[00:15:44]  As I said in the article, a mother, to define the word mother, it's weird to have to just define it, but these days, you kind of have to.
[00:15:52]  It's simply, of course, a woman with a baby.
[00:15:58]  So the best thing you can do for the woman with the baby is to keep her with her baby, is to save her baby.
[00:16:04]  And then the second point is well, the pro life movement is extraordinarily helping moms beyond saving their babies.
[00:16:14]  I say we because I'm part of the pro life movement, and we've been giving women.
[00:16:18]  Resources.
[00:16:19]  We have the crisis pregnancy centers across the US and Canada.
[00:16:24]  We outnumber Planned Parenthood by four to one, and we're growing in terms of this number of places out there to help women with counseling, with protection from abusive spouses, with financial help, and a number of different ways to help them.
[00:16:41]  We are doing these things.
[00:16:42]  So the idea that we're not helping moms is ridiculous.
[00:16:45]  I mentioned in the article that there is a so called pro life group.
[00:16:49]  And I will mention them.
[00:16:49]  They're called the Am Campaign, and they basically are they say they support moms and basically they say they're from womb to tomb.
[00:16:57]  And they have an ad where they say that the pro choice movement ignores the baby but helps the mom, is what they said.
[00:17:05]  And it's supposed to be a Christian pro life group, and then they say that, but the pro life movement ignores the mom and helps the baby.
[00:17:14]  I'm thinking, what?
[00:17:15]  I mean, that's so wrong on so many levels, but especially the idea that the pro choice movement helps the mom.
[00:17:21]  By killing their baby, how are you helping them?
[00:17:24]  But these things are happening within the church.
[00:17:27]  These kind of organizations are rising up within the church.
[00:17:30]  And it's really saddening to me because it threatens the pro life movement or at least Christians who support bills that will end abortion.
[00:17:39]  And it really concerns me that, unfortunately, Wilson Moore and a lot of these other evangelicals are starting to embrace these things.

=== God Restraints And Degrees Of Murder (14:11) ===

[00:17:45]  Right.
[00:17:45]  Yeah.
[00:17:46]  No, I completely agree.
[00:17:46]  I was thinking about, you know, like the ERLC.
[00:17:49]  And this will kind of, you know, take us a little bit into the topic of, Abolitionism versus incrementalism.
[00:17:56]  But the ERLC, the Ethics Commission of the Southern Baptist Commission, the Ethics Wing, that used to be headed up by Russell Moore, but now has a new head.
[00:18:06]  I forget his name.
[00:18:07]  Do you know his name, the ERLC guy?
[00:18:09]  No.
[00:18:10]  Don't forget it.
[00:18:11]  Yeah.
[00:18:11]  So, anyways, but they recently came out and completely gutted, well, they supported the gutting of the bill HB 813, I think it was, in Louisiana.
[00:18:23]  It was an abolitionist bill that was seeking to have equal protection for the unborn.
[00:18:30]  And I think the argument can be made like this because some people, they're just like, well, we don't want to punish mothers.
[00:18:36]  And it's like, okay, well, then you don't want to save babies.
[00:18:39]  And I hate to do that, but it really is that simple.
[00:18:43]  It's equal penalties.
[00:18:44]  And when I say equal, what I'm talking about is what penalty would there be for a mother who takes her one year old son to a hitman, physically restrains him, holds him down, pays that man?
[00:18:57]  To shoot her one year old son in the head.
[00:19:00]  Like, what would the penalty be?
[00:19:03]  Whatever that penalty is, if that same penalty, equal penalty, is not applied, this is my position, and feel free to push back here in a second.
[00:19:12]  But if that same penalty is not applied, then I would say without equal penalties, you don't have equal protection.
[00:19:17]  Without equal protection, you don't have equal value, equal value in terms of sanctity of life.
[00:19:22]  And without equal value, you're saying that the unborn child, that this is an entire class of human beings that are subhuman.
[00:19:30]  They're somehow less than human.
[00:19:31]  And theologically, if we even get into theological terms, then it says that in terms of the incarnation, right, we say that Jesus was fully God and fully man.
[00:19:39]  But ultimately, what we're actually saying is that there was a time where Jesus was fully God and partially man, namely when he was in his mother's womb.
[00:19:49]  But we would say that, no, biblically speaking, that the Holy Spirit brooded, just like he hovered above the waters in the creation, he brooded above Mary.
[00:19:58]  She conceived by the Holy Spirit.
[00:20:00]  And at the point of conception, the God man, or the Son of God, the second member of the Trinity who was fully God, remained fully God and added to himself.
[00:20:10]  A second full nature, namely full humanity.
[00:20:13]  So at the moment of incarnation, and I would argue that being at the moment of conception by the Holy Spirit, Jesus, the second member of the Trinity, fully God, took upon himself a full second nature, namely the fully human nature.
[00:20:27]  And so there's all kinds of theological problems.
[00:20:31]  But my point is it's not that I want a bunch of mothers to get the death penalty.
[00:20:37]  I think of, you know, like even in the Old Testament, it's like if a son or a child.
[00:20:43]  Is rebellious towards their parents, stone them, right?
[00:20:47]  And you read that and you're like, that's insane.
[00:20:49]  God was so harsh.
[00:20:51]  But then if you look at like some of the historical documents outside of the scripture that talk about that, like, there's not one instance of anyone ever being stoned.
[00:21:01]  And I don't think it's just because Israel compromised severe, swift, when justice is swift, when it's proportional, life for life, tooth for tooth, eye for eye.
[00:21:14]  So, when it's proportional, when it's swift, when it's just, when it's unbiased, right?
[00:21:20]  When it's impartial, when it's just, justice, it's not just like, oh, now all these mothers are getting the death penalty.
[00:21:27]  No, now all these mothers are choosing to keep their babies.
[00:21:32]  It's the second use of the law.
[00:21:33]  It's the law working as a restraining grace to hold back.
[00:21:39]  It's powerless to change the heart of man.
[00:21:41]  We need the gospel for that.
[00:21:42]  But the law of God, as it's executed, legislated and executed by societies in the civil magistrate, It does have a common grace function, not just for the believer, but the unbeliever, to hold back outward manifestations of evil.
[00:21:55]  And that's a blessing to societies.
[00:21:58]  Do you have any thoughts about that?
[00:21:59]  Equal penalties, equal protection?
[00:22:02]  That is beautifully said.
[00:22:04]  As you mentioned earlier, or you indicated, I am not an abolitionist, at least in the way that many abolitionists define the term abolitionist.
[00:22:11]  And what I'm going to say will offend a lot of my pro life colleagues.
[00:22:15]  But when pro life people say, That women who get abortion should not be punished for that.
[00:22:24]  They are completely unbiblical and it goes against the statement of being pro life.
[00:22:28]  I'm pro life, but more importantly, I'm a Christian.
[00:22:31]  I believe what the Bible says that if you kill a person, if you murder a child, if you murder anyone, you should be punished for that.
[00:22:39]  And as you said, indeed, if you do not put a value on that life by punishing the offender, by punishing the murderer, then that betrays your entire basis for being so called pro life.
[00:22:51]  So, I completely agree with you.
[00:22:52]  And, you know, as you're speaking, I know that many people, including poor life people, would say that, well, that won't really restrain people.
[00:22:59]  That concerns me.
[00:22:59]  Now, of course, some people will still get abortion, right?
[00:23:02]  We know that, you know, even states who still have a death penalty still get people who commit murder.
[00:23:09]  That's true.
[00:23:10]  It's 16,000, just to put a number on that 16,000 annual homicides in America versus a million abortions.
[00:23:18]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:23:21]  So, it still happens.
[00:23:22]  But that's quite a difference.
[00:23:24]  Yeah.
[00:23:24]  What I was going to say is, and I think you also indicated this, we know that the law of God restrains people, right?
[00:23:32]  It doesn't restrain every single person, but it does restrain people.
[00:23:35]  This is biblical.
[00:23:36]  So, then why would we believe that laws that reflect the law of God wouldn't restrain people?
[00:23:40]  If we say that it wouldn't, we're saying the law of God does not restrain people at all.
[00:23:44]  And of course, that would then be us protecting the word of God.
[00:23:47]  So, I completely agree with you.
[00:23:49]  You said it better than I can.
[00:23:52]  It concerns me when, again, a lot of my pro life colleagues and I've had talks with them, I'm like, guys, no.
[00:23:59]  Now, of course, with that being said, I think that what isn't said a lot in this debate about whether moms should be punished.
[00:24:06]  When they get abortions, or if they have abortions, is that there are different degrees, there are different charges for murder.
[00:24:14]  There's manslaughter, there is first degree severity.
[00:24:16]  And I think we need to mention that when it comes to the abortion issue, because some women might be coerced, of course, into getting abortions.
[00:24:24]  Some women might, you know, there are some women who just have premeditated, they want to kill their babies.
[00:24:31]  I have no problem with giving first degree.
[00:24:34]  But there's some people out there, and this is where it might be difficult in terms of how do we figure out.
[00:24:39]  What's first degree?
[00:24:39]  What's second degree?
[00:24:40]  What's manslaughter?
[00:24:41]  But there are some women who are guilty of getting the abortion, but you also have different degrees as well as to what are the.
[00:24:50]  You're right.
[00:24:51]  And just for the record, that bill in Louisiana that was put forward by abolitionists did have a provision for that.
[00:24:59]  So they, even as an abolitionist, recognize okay, but there is a difference, right?
[00:25:05]  So to reverse the roles a little bit.
[00:25:08]  With the illustration of a mother bringing her one year old child to a hitman and holding them down.
[00:25:14]  The reason why I use that language of holding them down is that it's like, well, yeah, but a mom doesn't do that when she has an abortion.
[00:25:20]  No, she does.
[00:25:21]  She's physically bringing the child and holding it down by virtue of the child having nowhere to go and being inside of her.
[00:25:27]  Whatever she's doing with her body is that that is restraining the child, holding the child down by virtue of her restraining herself and lying down in that chair and making the child available for a hitman.
[00:25:40]  And so I would change to add an extra dynamic in this hypothetical scenario for the sake of illustration.
[00:25:46]  Let's say there's a third party.
[00:25:48]  A mom is bringing a child, and she's being used kind of as a kind, trustworthy, credible voice for the child to get the child there.
[00:26:00]  Like, come on, sweetie, it's okay, you can trust me.
[00:26:03]  And she's kind of, you can tell she's crying, she's distraught.
[00:26:06]  And behind her, little does the child know, but dad is there with a gun to the back of mom's head.
[00:26:11]  Saying, tell the child to come, right?
[00:26:13]  That would be, and that mom would be less culpable, significantly less culpable.
[00:26:18]  And so to have those kinds of clauses in a bill, I think is just.
[00:26:25]  And the abolitionists that I know is that, yeah, that, yeah, that we're not, we recognize that there are these kinds of things.
[00:26:31]  So, you know, and there's, of course, I'll probably mispronounce it, but ectoptic pregnancies.
[00:26:36]  Is that how you say it?
[00:26:38]  Ectopic, yeah.
[00:26:39]  Yeah.
[00:26:39]  When, you know, in the fallopian tube and the, Egg doesn't get implanted correctly, and those kinds of things where the life of the mother is in jeopardy.
[00:26:48]  And even then, it's like, oh, well, why do you always save the life of the mother and don't choose the life of the baby?
[00:26:52]  Well, in an ectoptic pregnancy, saving the life of the baby is not an option.
[00:26:56]  That's where the baby is so underdeveloped.
[00:26:59]  That's usually a matter of just a few weeks.
[00:27:02]  And so, in that scenario, it's not like, oh, choose the baby or the mom.
[00:27:09]  The baby is not going to live, the baby can't live.
[00:27:12]  And so, it's just, do we want the mom to go down with the ship?
[00:27:15]  To die with a baby?
[00:27:16]  Is it two deaths or one?
[00:27:17]  Right?
[00:27:18]  So there are exceptions, you know, but I just feel like the exception, when we major on the minor and we minor on the major, right?
[00:27:26]  When the footnote becomes the headline.
[00:27:28]  And I feel like that's what Democrats have all, you know, I mean, we went from safe, legal, and rare, you know, and all, you know, and then now it's like shouting your abortion, having like getting a cake to celebrate your abortion and throwing a party.
[00:27:43]  And then the saddest part about it is pro life groups and even evangelical professing Christians, maybe they're regenerate and just absolutely in sin and God's going to, you know, cause them to repent, or they're just Christians in name, you know, and they're actually false converts.
[00:27:56]  Either way, the point is, The rhetoric is getting picked up, and it just feels like smoke and mirrors.
[00:28:03]  It's just look over here, but look over here, but look over here.
[00:28:06]  And it's always the emphasis going on the 0.0001%.
[00:28:12]  It's like the transgender issue.
[00:28:13]  It's like, well, some people are born with both reproductive organs.
[00:28:17]  And so, okay, so we're going to make a law for the public for 0.00.
[00:28:22]  It's just, I just don't get that.
[00:28:25]  Yeah, I completely agree with you.
[00:28:28]  And I'm glad you even mentioned.
[00:28:29]  The topic of pregnancies or the issue when it comes to saving a mom's life.
[00:28:34]  And, you know, there's something that I always have people check out.
[00:28:39]  It's called the Dublin Declaration.
[00:28:41]  It's from a group of a thousand medical professionals who said that there is never, ever, ever a justifiable reason to kill the mom.
[00:28:48]  I'm sorry, to kill the baby to save the mom.
[00:28:51]  Never.
[00:28:51]  Usually, besides atopic pregnancies, which is not an abortion whatsoever, as you suggested.
[00:28:56]  But when it comes to a pregnancy harming the mother's life, It's usually, it's almost always in the late term stage.
[00:29:08]  And by that point, the baby is viable.
[00:29:11]  So then you can have an immediate surgery to save the baby and the mom.
[00:29:16]  The Caesarean, yeah, C section.
[00:29:18]  Because what she needs, she doesn't need her baby to die for her life to be saved.
[00:29:22]  She needs her baby to be delivered.
[00:29:25]  That's what she needs.
[00:29:26]  Exactly.
[00:29:27]  And then late term abortions, not only do they kill the baby, they actually threaten the women significantly more, where with With C sections, both babies, both persons can live.
[00:29:43]  Great point.
[00:29:44]  All right, let me read a quote from your article and feed it to you because I think it'll jog for both of us more thoughts.
[00:29:50]  But I thought this was really great.
[00:29:51]  And so I think if nothing else, it's just worth saying, give you some credit for it.
[00:29:55]  So this is part of what you wrote in the article that we're referencing.
[00:29:58]  You said, As for the ridiculous claim that the pro life movement needs to embrace essentially leftist or socialist causes in order to prove we're authentically pro life, No.
[00:30:09]  We're anti abortion because we're anti murder.
[00:30:13]  We're not ashamed of that.
[00:30:14]  Besides, leftist and socialist history is tied to murder and death.
[00:30:21]  Leftism and socialism are not pro life.
[00:30:24]  They promise life, but they deliver death.
[00:30:27]  Could you talk about that a little bit?
[00:30:29]  Yeah.
[00:30:31]  You know, one of the things that, as I've said before, is very, very frustrating with critical race theory and all these leftist and socialist ideas out there.
[00:30:41]  They claim that they are really pro life when they're not.
[00:30:44]  There isn't a single part of the world where these ideas, socialist communism, essentially, or different versions of that, have been implemented where they have produced life.
[00:30:54]  They always end in murder and death.
[00:30:56]  And, you know, I mentioned the article too that when it comes to the states, so a lot of, you know, people who are supposedly, you know, from womb to tomb pro life people, when they say that, well, if we only embrace welfare, if we embrace a lot of these socialist ideas out there, Then it will save more babies, which is a bizarre claim.
[00:31:16]  Nevertheless, when you look at the states in the US with the most socialist bills, the most welfare programs, or social security, all these things, they're actually the most pro abortion states in the world with the most, the highest abortion rates in the country.
[00:31:33]  And then I mentioned in the article too the top 14 nations in the world with the most, with the highest abortion rates are the current or formerly communist or socialist nations.
[00:31:44]  So the idea that leftism produces life.
[00:31:47]  That it will lead to more pro life results is ridiculous.
[00:31:52]  It does not at all.
[00:31:53]  Yep.
[00:31:54]  Yep.
[00:31:54]  You're absolutely right.
[00:31:55]  All right.

=== White Evangelicals And Socialist Bills (14:56) ===

[00:31:56]  So let's talk a little bit because we just had a recent, you know, the shooting in Buffalo.
[00:32:01]  And I told you before we started that we, you know, I'd love to talk about this a little bit because you've done a lot of great work on especially the issue of CRT, social justice, all, you know, the whole wokeism thing.
[00:32:13]  And so, you know, I'd like to get your hot take, you know, with.
[00:32:18]  Buffalo and the president, you know, he didn't have time for Wakacha, but he had time to go to Buffalo, right?
[00:32:25]  You know, and it just, you know, now Tucker Carlson is, everyone's attacking him, you know, he's a white supremacist.
[00:32:33]  You know, I told you I thought about titling, you know, this episode, we could title it Two Pervasive Dangers in America Bigfoot and White Supremacism.
[00:32:41]  You know, but like, what is your take?
[00:32:44]  I mean, obviously, yeah, sure, there are individual racists.
[00:32:48]  And I would say there are black supremacists, white supremacists, but the idea that this is pervasive, baked into the fabric of our society, that it's systemic.
[00:32:59]  Help our listeners with that.
[00:33:00]  What are your thoughts?
[00:33:04]  I'm not sure who hates, sorry, I'm not sure who loves white supremacist shootings more in America, white supremacists or the left?
[00:33:15]  That's okay.
[00:33:17]  Yeah.
[00:33:18]  I say this because.
[00:33:20]  As soon as a white supremacist shooting happens, they use that for political gain.
[00:33:28]  And that they seem to enjoy that because they're like, aha, we got something here that can help us out.
[00:33:34]  We have something to use against the conservatives or Republicans or so called white evangelicals.
[00:33:43]  And it's very concerning that people aren't seeing this.
[00:33:48]  White supremacy is absolutely trending downward in America, it is really rare.
[00:33:54]  And yet, now I'm not saying I know people are white supremacists, though.
[00:33:59]  I know that that still exists.
[00:34:01]  However, you see in the shooting, however, it is trending downward.
[00:34:06]  However, black supremacy is growing up.
[00:34:09]  People don't like this, but it's a fact, right?
[00:34:11]  That's why you see, as you said, you saw in Wakushal, you had the black supremacist attack there, and no one talked about it.
[00:34:19]  In fact, there have been several other black supremacist shootings, and no one talks about this because the left.
[00:34:25]  And many, unfortunately, a lot of critical race theorists within the church, many people are not willing to address that all supremacist ideas are evil.
[00:34:36]  Because oftentimes they're much more focused on political gain or social gain or even church growth, which is a different kind of thing.
[00:34:44]  And they're afraid that if they address these issues, they will lose some black members from the church who might be woke, or even white members from the church who might be woke, or they believe that by teaching against all racist ideas, then That they will lose people from coming to the church as well.
[00:35:00]  So, I mentioned this on social media that I have a friend who's pastoring.
[00:35:06]  He's a black pastor who's pastoring right in our neighborhood.
[00:35:11]  And he is against critical race theory, and of course, he's also against white supremacy.
[00:35:14]  And he just asked me today to pray for him because he's really burdened by this.
[00:35:18]  He is really just trying to love his neighborhood and love his church very well.
[00:35:23]  But the sad thing is, a lot of critical race theory thinking, a lot of anger towards white Christians is in that area.
[00:35:32]  And, you know, we've been in the circle, and he's struggling with that because, of course, as a faithful pastor, he's calling people to hate all sin, to hate all sinful ideologies, and then to love the gospel and to love people of the gospel.
[00:35:45]  Including white evangelicals.
[00:35:47]  I hate using that term, but people keep using that term to slander our brothers, to slander people who are part of my family.
[00:35:54]  So, anyway, I don't know.
[00:35:56]  Yeah, no, no, that's super helpful.
[00:35:58]  And white evangelicals, I mean, it's just a descriptive term.
[00:36:00]  It's like black evangelicals, white evangelicals.
[00:36:04]  It's helpful to use.
[00:36:05]  And I was thinking the other day, I thought about tweeting this out, and I'd probably get some flack for it, but I was thinking, I remember guys like Jamar Tisby saying, I'm afraid to go and worship.
[00:36:18]  In my church today, knowing that straight white male evangelicals put Trump in office.
[00:36:27]  It was right after the results of the election back in 2016.
[00:36:31]  And I remember guys saying that kind of rhetoric of like, I can't even worship with these people anymore.
[00:36:38]  Speaking of white evangelicals and primarily the cisgendered straight white male evangelicals that put Trump into office.
[00:36:46]  And I was thinking, it's like, well, you know what?
[00:36:49]  You know, from time to time, I like to think, like, what am I grateful for today?
[00:36:52]  Or what am I grateful for this week?
[00:36:53]  I was like, you know, I was thinking just the other day, I'm grateful for straight, cisgendered, white male evangelicals who put Trump into office.
[00:37:02]  And it very much looks like Roe is going to get overturned.
[00:37:06]  In that craving, in that something, right?
[00:37:08]  We all said it would never happen.
[00:37:09]  That's just stupid.
[00:37:11]  And here we are.
[00:37:13]  You know, not to move away from that.
[00:37:15]  Now, I'm very grateful for that, too.
[00:37:17]  But I thought you were going to say something a lot.
[00:37:19]  I wouldn't say harsh, more controversial.
[00:37:22]  Well, another note, I was going to say, you know what?
[00:37:25]  He's being honest there.
[00:37:27]  He can't worship with Christians.
[00:37:30]  Yeah.
[00:37:30]  That's saying something.
[00:37:31]  That's saying something.
[00:37:32]  There is a difference.
[00:37:34]  Yeah.
[00:37:34]  When you say you can't worship with, frankly, God's people, I think, I'll say it frankly, I'm not sure if I can call Jamar Tafi my brother.
[00:37:44]  Right.
[00:37:45]  Yeah.
[00:37:45]  Some of it's thinking it's, you know, so when I read that, I'm like, well, he seems to be thinking exactly what I'm thinking.
[00:37:52]  A lot of those people are thinking the same thing, too.
[00:37:54]  But going back to what we said about Roe.
[00:37:56]  You know, it's amazing that a lot of the people who, you know, again, they claim they're anti abortion, they claim they're pro life.
[00:38:02]  And look, I'm not saying anyone should be voting for Trump.
[00:38:05]  That's up to people.
[00:38:07]  I think it's very difficult to vote for Trump, at least in the election in 2016.
[00:38:12]  Clearly, we see its fruits.
[00:38:14]  But it's amazing that people hate him so much.
[00:38:17]  So much.
[00:38:17]  They can't even enjoy.
[00:38:19]  And I can't even say they even hate just Trump.
[00:38:22]  As we see with David French, it's not really just Trump.
[00:38:24]  It's just hitting the Republicans, hitting conservatives, hitting evangelicals, that they can't.
[00:38:29]  Rejoice in the fact that because people voted for Trump, that now Roe v. Wade is about to be overturned.
[00:38:38]  It is pretty remarkable that people hate him so much and they hate, unfortunately, many other people so much that they can't rejoice in all these things.
[00:38:46]  Right.
[00:38:46]  You know, and all the things that we had said that Trump might be able to do, right.
[00:38:51]  He, you know, he's been able to do it more, you know, and it's pretty remarkable.
[00:38:55]  And yet, again, there's so much hatred for evangelicals that.
[00:38:59]  Many people are not rejoicing in it.
[00:39:01]  Right, exactly.
[00:39:02]  Yeah.
[00:39:02]  You don't, nobody's sitting here, neither you nor I, and saying, yeah, Trump should be an elder in our local church.
[00:39:07]  I'm not even sitting here saying that Trump is legitimate or, I'm sorry, regenerate.
[00:39:12]  I don't know.
[00:39:13]  I lean towards not.
[00:39:15]  I don't see just some of the statements in terms of, and not like this, oh, this is arrogant.
[00:39:21]  Because I think of the C.S. Lewis quote, pride is one of the most difficult sins to see in ourselves, but very easy to see in others.
[00:39:28]  And perhaps one of the clearest indicators of pride in ourselves is the degree by which we're bothered when we think we see it in others.
[00:39:36]  I think a lot of people who talk about Trump's arrogance are arrogant people.
[00:39:41]  Because a truly humble person is just not nearly as bothered by the sin of pride.
[00:39:46]  As prideful people, it's prideful people who just get all up and to dither about pride.
[00:39:50]  So I don't think all of Trump's rhetoric was prideful.
[00:39:53]  I think some of it was prideful, but the things that I thought was most prideful, I remember somebody asking him one time, like, do you repent?
[00:39:59]  And he, I can't, I'm going to get it wrong.
[00:40:01]  So I'm paraphrasing.
[00:40:02]  So forgive me if I'm misrepresenting what he said.
[00:40:05]  You know, representing things clearly matters.
[00:40:06]  But he said something along the lines of, well, I just try to do everything right.
[00:40:10]  I'd rather do things right than repent.
[00:40:12]  You know, it's like, well, yeah, me too.
[00:40:13]  I'm trying, you know, but the way he said it was kind of like this sense of like, I just don't really have that much to repent for.
[00:40:19]  Whereas, like for me, it's like it takes me like you know 30 seconds, and I've got a litany of sins that I can confess to the Lord.
[00:40:26]  And so, anyways, all that being said, like nobody really knew what we were going to get with Trump.
[00:40:30]  I think voting for Trump in 2020 is very different than voting for him in 2016.
[00:40:34]  But all that said, you know, none of us had a crystal ball back in 2016, but except for maybe Wayne Grudem, you know.
[00:40:42]  I so I'm a cessationist, you know, but Wayne Grudem, I you know, I think one of the strongest arguments for revelation, continued revelation.
[00:40:52]  Uh, which you know, Wayne Grudem obviously is a continuation.
[00:40:55]  This is man, he got so much flack from John Piper, from like all these different guys because he said, like, yeah, Trump has all these moral issues.
[00:41:03]  The guy's been, you know, like been to the Playboy mansion, like all the like, nobody's saying the guy is a saint.
[00:41:08]  He's got multiple married, failed marriages, all these kinds of things.
[00:41:11]  Um, but he said, but this, if you look at the Supreme Court justices and you look at their ages and their tenure and all these kinds of things, this very well might be a time where three of them he and he nailed it, three of them might get replaced.
[00:41:25]  And and and and we, we.
[00:41:27]  Trump might give us conservative ones.
[00:41:30]  Hillary will give us incredible, the most leftist Supreme Court justices.
[00:41:36]  They would make Ruth Bader Ginsburg look conservative.
[00:41:39]  And so that was his whole argument.
[00:41:42]  That was his whole argument.
[00:41:44]  And he was right.
[00:41:45]  He nailed it.
[00:41:46]  And you know, I'm like you, a most manifestationist, but I said after the leak about Roe v. Wade that clearly the election from 2016 was.
[00:41:59]  One of the most consequential elections in American history.
[00:42:03]  And again, I'm not a cessationist, but I look at that and I look at just how things have played out.
[00:42:12]  And that's when you had essentially like a bit of a civil war within the church on this issue.
[00:42:20]  And God seems to have blessed Trump in a unique way.
[00:42:27]  Again, I'm not saying that Trump, I don't think he's a believer as well.
[00:42:30]  I'm not saying that he's even a good man in many ways.
[00:42:33]  I admire some things about him.
[00:42:35]  Me too.
[00:42:36]  Me too.
[00:42:36]  There are respectable qualities about him.
[00:42:39]  Exactly.
[00:42:40]  And yet, when you look at some, I mean, the fact that, you know, he's just for four years, never mind even eight years, for four years, he's been able to possibly help on the abortion issue in a magnificent way.
[00:42:55]  Not just the abortion issue, too, many other things, but especially that, where I'm part of the pro life movement.
[00:43:02]  I'll be honest with you.
[00:43:03]  I was a bit pessimistic.
[00:43:04]  I'm like, I don't know if we can, will we wait anytime soon?
[00:43:08]  And yet, it seems to just happen right away.
[00:43:10]  It's crazy.
[00:43:11]  You know?
[00:43:11]  Sorry, go ahead.
[00:43:15]  I was just, yeah, it's crazy.
[00:43:16]  Here we are.
[00:43:17]  Yeah, I thought it could be another 50 years, and here we are.
[00:43:19]  Exactly.
[00:43:20]  All the things that Wayne Gridham said and many other guys said, it's exactly happening the way they said it might.
[00:43:27]  And it's incredible to see.
[00:43:29]  And I hope indeed that very soon, maybe the next few days or the next few weeks, we hear that it has been overturned.
[00:43:36]  Right.
[00:43:36]  By the time this episode airs, so those of you who are listening, it's like, have they not heard?
[00:43:41]  Are they living under a rock?
[00:43:43]  Well, we record these ahead of time.
[00:43:44]  So by the time this airs, it very well may be overturned.
[00:43:48]  And you and I both know that, you know, just for the record, that's just all that does is it really just, and it's still a big deal.
[00:43:56]  So in one sense, it's nothing.
[00:43:59]  And in another sense, it's everything.
[00:44:00]  And this is what I mean.
[00:44:03]  There's a reason why the Dims are trying to codify, why they tried to codify Roe into law.
[00:44:07]  And they tried to do a lot more than just codify Roe, right?
[00:44:11]  I mean, if there was ever a question, Question of, like, can a Christian righteously with a clear conscience in a way that is pleasing to the Lord vote Democrat?
[00:44:21]  If you ever could have answered that question, yes, in the past, the verdict has come back in officially now.
[00:44:28]  49 out of 50 Democrats voted for abortion in all 50 states for any reason, all the way up until that child takes its first breath.
[00:44:37]  That's not just codifying Roe, but that's what, apart from Joe Manchin, that is.
[00:44:43]  So it's like, well, that doesn't represent the Democrat.
[00:44:45]  Yes, it does.
[00:44:46]  It's a staple.
[00:44:47]  It's, you know, like absolutely does.
[00:44:50]  And so, all that being said, Roe was never law, though.
[00:44:53]  That's my point.
[00:44:54]  There's a reason why they're quickly trying to codify.
[00:44:58]  States have always had the right.
[00:44:59]  And I think conservative states and pro life organizations, not all of them, but sadly, far too many have used Roe as this cover to say, like, oh man, yeah, we're trying.
[00:45:14]  You know, we're really trying, but it's, you know, our hands are tied behind our back, where it's like, Legally speaking, constitutionally speaking, like Texas, the state that I'm in, could have abolished abortion outright with equal penalties, equal protections in the state of Texas for the last 49 years without Roe being overturned.
[00:45:31]  It's a state by state issue, and Roe being overturned, all that is like, well, that just turns it back to the states.
[00:45:39]  Yeah, but the states could have been fighting against Roe from the beginning, in my assessment.
[00:45:45]  But I think what the Lord's doing with Roe being overturned, I think the biggest thing that we're going to see is not really a change in the game legally.
[00:45:53]  But I do think we're seeing a big change in the optics.
[00:45:56]  It's just, it seems like the theme of the Lord and his providence over the last few years is just lifting the veil, lifting the veil.
[00:46:04]  It's not like all of a sudden, you know, we've had a rise of wicked people.
[00:46:07]  But what we have had is a clear perspective on wickedness, right?
[00:46:12]  And it's just like, it's just this lifting the veil.
[00:46:14]  So all of our institutions have discredited themselves.
[00:46:17]  Well, no, they were probably already corrupt and we just see it a lot clearer.
[00:46:20]  Like we've got a lot better idea about pharmaceutical companies than we had, you know, two years ago.
[00:46:25]  We've got a lot better idea about the government.
[00:46:27]  The legacy media, higher academia, Hollywood, like every single institution, and sadly, the evangelical church, I would include.
[00:46:37]  It's like the veil has been lifted, the light switch has been flipped on, and now I feel like the Lord is doing the same thing on the issue of abortion.
[00:46:45]  Now we get to see okay, so who really has a spine?
[00:46:48]  Who really is going to fight for life?
[00:46:51]  No more excuses.

=== Concerns About Strong Pro Life Bills (15:40) ===

[00:46:53]  I completely agree with you.
[00:46:54]  Before I mention this, it's funny because I think the one event or the one person that I think forced The institutions to reveal themselves as Trump.
[00:47:04]  Exactly.
[00:47:06]  When he came in, it seems like things unraveled such a way that a lot of people were forced, even within the church, to show their faces.
[00:47:15]  Russell Moore became Russell Moore that he is today in light of Trump.
[00:47:19]  And so many people as well, too.
[00:47:22]  But about this, as you know, I'm pro life and I'm not an abolitionist.
[00:47:26]  But yet I will say this.
[00:47:28]  Real quick, because you've said that, what would you say?
[00:47:31]  And this is why I'm not an abolitionist.
[00:47:33]  Just for our listeners, just so they understand, where's the line?
[00:47:36]  That's great.
[00:47:36]  Yeah.
[00:47:37]  So for those who may not, I'm sure maybe on your show you probably addressed it before.
[00:47:41]  But the abolitionists are known for, I'll say primarily two things, though.
[00:47:47]  I mean, it's more than just two things, but primarily they're known for being immediateists.
[00:47:51]  And then those are known for a gospel centered movement.
[00:47:54]  I completely agree with the gospel centered movement part.
[00:47:57]  I think that's sort of lacking in the pro life movement.
[00:48:00]  So I agree with that.
[00:48:01]  Of course, I also agree with mothers who kill their babies being punished.
[00:48:06]  I agree with that.
[00:48:07]  The one thing, the main thing I don't agree on is the idea of gradualism being labeled as either unhelpful or evil.
[00:48:18]  Yeah, and they would.
[00:48:20]  They would call it compromise, it would be sin.
[00:48:22]  Yeah, I would say no, it's not.
[00:48:24]  Now, it's not because I want, which is actually, I guess, my point.
[00:48:29]  My point I was going to say about now that Roe v. Wade is over.
[00:48:33]  If many states now do not completely, now I'm still okay with a gradual.
[00:48:39]  Abortion, but I mean, a gradual pro life bill necessarily.
[00:48:43]  Now, I'm not saying that, okay, I guess I'll say this.
[00:48:46]  There are some states where I can understand the gradual movement.
[00:48:50]  There are certain states where the states, say like Oklahoma, you know, today, the bill that came out today, or Texas, where they seem to have a strong support for a complete abolition of abortion, a complete end to abortion with no exceptions.
[00:49:06]  If they don't pass that, that is compromised.
[00:49:09]  Because now there's nothing.
[00:49:10]  I would say that the Roe v. Wade was an issue.
[00:49:14]  Because if they were to pass certain bills, as you saw with the Mississippi bill, the Supreme Court could take it and then strike it down.
[00:49:20]  And then I think that would lead to certain legal issues and things like that, which is why I think a lot of states are pushing some of the pro life bills.
[00:49:25]  But now, when Roe v. Wade is no longer there and you have complete autonomy, at least legally, then, although again, Roe v. Wade was, of course, a sham, nevertheless, if the states now do not pass these completely pro life bills, then they are compromising.
[00:49:42]  But I would say that in the past or before Roe v. Wade or as it is now, I would say that no, that's not fair.
[00:49:48]  Fair considering that look, so I'm in Canada right now.
[00:49:51]  Well, sorry, I'm forgetting where I am.
[00:49:53]  I'm in Ohio right now, but being in Canada for so long, we have absolutely zero laws on abortion.
[00:50:01]  Abortion is completely legal till essentially the morning before a baby is born, right?
[00:50:09]  And I mention this because, you know, yes, to kill a baby when a baby's a day old or as a zygote, but to kill a baby when they are nine months in the womb is the exact same thing, they're both evil.
[00:50:22]  But part of the concerns that I have about abolitionism is this.
[00:50:26]  Abolitionists 40 years ago in Canada, we had an opportunity to end, to have a very strong pro life bill.
[00:50:36]  At the time, it would have been one of the strongest in the entire world, but they did not want any exceptions whatsoever.
[00:50:42]  And they said, no, we will not compromise in this way.
[00:50:47]  We want an end to all abortion.
[00:50:50]  I love that.
[00:50:51]  The problem was it was catastrophic.
[00:50:55]  When it comes to strategy wise.
[00:50:56]  And that's why 40 years later, we don't have a bill anymore.
[00:51:00]  We don't because everyone said, wait a minute.
[00:51:02]  If back then we can't even get that pushed, what's the point?
[00:51:06]  And now a lot of conservatives are running away from this.
[00:51:09]  Gotcha.
[00:51:10]  That's a fair point.
[00:51:11]  So let me play, I was going to say play the devil's advocate, but instead, what I'll do is I'll play the abolitionist because for our listeners, that's where I would put myself.
[00:51:20]  And that is more of a recent change for me.
[00:51:24]  But in the providence of God, through guys like Pastor Jeff Durbin and guys like, I even got a guy, Jacob Miller, who is a part of my church that I pastor, and he's had several conversations with me, and it's been really, really helpful.
[00:51:38]  And so I'm thinking, you know, well, what would abolitionists say?
[00:51:42]  And I think part of what they would say is, you know, so you're like, man, there was this strong pro life bill, and the abolitionists ransacked it, right?
[00:51:51]  But then I'm thinking, well, the abolitionists in Louisiana would say there was this strong, strong abolitionist bill, and the ERLC ransacked it.
[00:52:02]  Like it was going to pass.
[00:52:04]  And it was guys like the ERLC and pro life organizations writing letters to these legislators who are going to be voting on it, saying, you know, you can't vote on it like this.
[00:52:16]  And here's the amendment.
[00:52:17]  And so then an amendment was proposed, and the amendment was, but no penalties for the mother.
[00:52:22]  That's not the exact language, but it was a very small amendment, something to the tune of essentially saying, all this is great except for penalties to the mother, which was like basically saying, this whole bill is great except none of it.
[00:52:36]  It undercut it.
[00:52:37]  It was completely.
[00:52:39]  And so, my point is it's like, all right, abolitionists, you know, ransack this good pro life bill.
[00:52:45]  But from the abolitionist perspective, it's like, but if all of you guys who say you're pro life, what if you all wrote a bill that said, stop killing babies?
[00:52:55]  That's the bill.
[00:52:55]  The bill just says, stop killing babies and treat the killing of babies the same way we treat killing any other class of people.
[00:53:03]  Like, then.
[00:53:05]  So, my point is, it's like you need both on the same team.
[00:53:08]  Because we need votes.
[00:53:10]  We need numbers.
[00:53:11]  We need numbers to win this battle.
[00:53:13]  And it's like the abolitionist, it's like, we, you know, this bill will save this many babies, but it won't save all the babies.
[00:53:20]  And the abolitionist is like, no.
[00:53:22]  And that's not completely fair because the abolitionist would say, well, wait, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second.
[00:53:27]  You know, they would have a lot of different reasons, and I think biblical reasons for why they're like, yeah, we cannot put our name on an unjust bill.
[00:53:34]  But so whether the reasoning is biblical or not, whether it's right or not, the point is the abolitionist feels like, I can't put my name behind any unjust bill.
[00:53:42]  And then the pro life guys, I guess my point is, I feel like there's a more defensible position for the abolitionists saying, I can't put my name on a bill that says you have to murder less babies, but you can still murder some babies.
[00:53:57]  But the pro life, what is their reason for not just putting forward not just a strong bill, but the strongest bill that saves all the babies?
[00:54:08]  And when you have a bill that's already been put forward and it's already for the first time gotten a hearing, Louisiana really stood a viable chance.
[00:54:15]  Of being the first state to abolish abortion.
[00:54:18]  The first state to abolish.
[00:54:19]  And it's the ERLC with a list of other pro life organizations writing letters to the legislators saying, as the bill is, please don't vote for it because it's mean to mommies.
[00:54:31]  Yeah.
[00:54:32]  Yeah.
[00:54:33]  So remember, just so, yeah.
[00:54:35]  And I agree with a lot of what you said.
[00:54:36]  Not everything, but I agree with a lot of what you said.
[00:54:38]  Yeah.
[00:54:38]  Help me.
[00:54:38]  Help me out.
[00:54:40]  So as I would say, as I said earlier, I am by no means what I consider.
[00:54:46]  The ERLC, a strong pro life group, whatsoever.
[00:54:51]  The same way that you would acknowledge that there are some unhelpful abolitionists, I would say that there are also some unhelpful pro life people as well.
[00:54:59]  The best way I can say is this way.
[00:55:00]  I said before that I consider myself an abolitionist.
[00:55:03]  And frankly, every true pro life person would say there are also abolitionists in the sense that we want to abolish abortion.
[00:55:11]  Right.
[00:55:11]  The real debate is not if you're truly pro life, you want to abolish abortion.
[00:55:16]  So the question is immediacy or increments.
[00:55:19]  Exactly.
[00:55:20]  But even then, I think one of the things that concerns me is that it seems to me that a lot of the abolitionists do not.
[00:55:29]  I think for many people, given by some of the things they say, they do understand our position, but they don't.
[00:55:33]  I think, choose, unless not you, but many do not choose to listen to what we're really saying.
[00:55:38]  So, in that bill you mentioned in Louisiana, I would be with the abolitionist.
[00:55:43]  If it would pass, if it had a real chance of passing, I'm with the abolitionist.
[00:55:49]  If it won't pass, it depends on what I think we could do.
[00:55:53]  So, basically, we said about having the strongest bill possible.
[00:55:57]  That's me.
[00:55:57]  I want the strongest bill possible.
[00:56:00]  You want the strongest bill possible that you think will pass.
[00:56:04]  So, I think that's the rub.
[00:56:05]  And that's super helpful because that makes it really clear.
[00:56:07]  I see the distinction.
[00:56:08]  You want the strongest bill possible that'll save the most babies possible that'll pass.
[00:56:14]  And the abolitionist would say, I don't want the strongest bill possible.
[00:56:19]  I want what I see scripturally to be the most righteous bill possible, whether it'll pass or not.
[00:56:25]  And I leave that to the sovereignty of God.
[00:56:29]  And I'm steel manning the abolitionist because I feel I'm on that side.
[00:56:34]  We would say that we're being righteous soon.
[00:56:36]  Of course, I would say that we're not.
[00:56:37]  But we would say that we'd rather save some than save none at all.
[00:56:42]  But what I will say is that I see myself as, you know, not that I'm anything like Wilberforce, but I would agree with Wilberforce in, what was it, I think it was 8, 17, I'm forgetting exactly what year, when Wilberforce passed a bill that didn't ban slavery, but banned the slave trade, right?
[00:57:02]  That's what I would agree with him.
[00:57:04]  I wouldn't say he was unrighteous because what he wanted to do.
[00:57:07]  Was ban all slavery, but he knew that wasn't going to pass.
[00:57:10]  So he pushed a bill that would pass the slave trade.
[00:57:13]  And then, through his efforts in 1835, then some of his followers, by that time I think he retired when it passed.
[00:57:24]  Then in Britain, they passed the bill that would ban all slavery.
[00:57:28]  Now, what I'll say is this if by that point, when all Britain was mostly towards the side of anti slavery, and then they simply pushed an anti slave trade bill, that's unrighteous because you can actually do much more.
[00:57:40]  Right.
[00:57:41]  So it depends on the situation, is what I would say.
[00:57:43]  You know, so that's why I say that in Canada, there was an injustice there with the abolitionists, in my view.
[00:57:48]  But in certain places where you can actually end abortion, you should absolutely be abolitionists.
[00:57:53]  Gotcha.
[00:57:53]  So we would disagree.
[00:57:55]  But everything you're saying, I really appreciate.
[00:57:58]  And I think it's helpful to be able to go back and forth because one thing that I'll, you know, and I may get some flack for this, but I've gotten this testimony from abolitionists like Jeff Durbin, like, you know, guys that I know.
[00:58:11]  Good guys that I feel like are solid.
[00:58:13]  And I don't just agree with their position, but they're solid across the gambit in other areas.
[00:58:18]  And sadly, I don't know what it is, but there's something about the abolitionist position that seems to attract guys who would be like, Yeah, I'm an abolitionist.
[00:58:27]  And it's like, And what church are you a member at?
[00:58:30]  They're not.
[00:58:30]  They're not a member in a local church.
[00:58:32]  They're just, they're always contentious.
[00:58:36]  They're like, Well, I can't go to that church.
[00:58:39]  And it's like, Well, dude, there's a lot of churches I can't go to either.
[00:58:42]  But I'm saying, like, they wouldn't be able to go to my church.
[00:58:45]  They, you know, they find something wrong with Jeff Durbin's church.
[00:58:48]  They've been wandering, right?
[00:58:50]  And they'll get together maybe on a Sunday at a courthouse and do a protest, but not the ordinary means of grace.
[00:58:58]  It's like, when's the last time you've taken the Lord's Supper rightly administered in the body?
[00:59:04]  And so, all that being said, my point is I think it matters.
[00:59:09]  Theology matters.
[00:59:11]  The life of children matters.
[00:59:12]  The law of God and righteousness matters.
[00:59:14]  Equal weights and scales matter.
[00:59:17]  All this matters.
[00:59:19]  But sometimes we don't have the character.
[00:59:23]  To be able to, you can't even have a conversation with a guy who disagrees.
[00:59:26]  You're just, you're so intense about it that, you know, you couldn't even have like a just a cordial conversation like you and I, by the grace of God, are having, disagreeing on the matter.
[00:59:40]  And so then it leaves a lot of people in the dark because they haven't been able to witness side by side comparison of, oh, okay, oh, okay.
[00:59:48]  All they get is the hour long podcast from the abolitionist who would never be able to have a conversation with a pro life guy.
[00:59:54]  Without the pro life guy, you know, probably just getting up and walking out of the room, you know, and vice versa.
[01:00:00]  And so, all that being said, if we go ahead, go ahead, sorry.
[01:00:03]  All right, if I could say this, I've learned from guys like you, I've learned from abolitionists.
[01:00:07]  You know, I have critiques against abolitionists, and I also have critiques against my pro life movement colleagues, where many of them are afraid to say that abortion is murder.
[01:00:19]  They're afraid to say that, you know, women who kill their babies should be punished for that, right?
[01:00:24]  So, I think both sides have some critiques, and I'm just trying to take You know, whatever good arguments that both sides have, I want to take it and I want to live in.
[01:00:35]  I want to then weigh it with the word of God, you know.
[01:00:37]  And I think, unfortunately, too many people are using the worst examples on both sides to choose where they stand.
[01:00:44]  That's not what I want.
[01:00:45]  I want to be fair to both groups.
[01:00:47]  That's true.
[01:00:48]  Okay.
[01:00:48]  So let's end with this.
[01:00:49]  Just one more thing that I love to pick your brain on.
[01:00:51]  So this is from one of my favorite race hustlers, Gavin Ortland.
[01:00:54]  He says on Twitter, him and Al Sharpton, they're both, you know, two peas in a pod.
[01:01:01]  But Gavin says this.
[01:01:03]  White supremacy, and you got a lot of flack.
[01:01:06]  So, probably a lot of our listeners will be familiar with this tweet.
[01:01:09]  But white supremacy is evil, and it is helpful for us to say so without qualification.
[01:01:15]  Whoa, novel.
[01:01:17]  This should be uncontroversial within the church, but unfortunately, that cannot be assumed right now.
[01:01:23]  What do you think when you hear things like that?
[01:01:27]  Like, who do you know in the evangelical church who is saying, Yeah, I couldn't come out and condemn white supremacy?
[01:01:34]  Like, I'll do it right now.
[01:01:35]  White supremacy is an atrocious sin.
[01:01:38]  Do you know anybody who's like, yeah, I can't say that?
[01:01:42]  None.
[01:01:42]  I don't know a single person.
[01:01:44]  What is he talking about?
[01:01:45]  Who is he talking about?
[01:01:47]  You know, you can't be a hero if you don't have villains.
[01:01:50]  Right.
[01:01:51]  And oftentimes, people like him who want to be held as heroes, where they can say, basically saying, unlike the other people out there, unlike the other people, look at me.
[01:02:02]  I'll do it.
[01:02:03]  I'm brave.
[01:02:04]  Exactly.
[01:02:05]  Exactly.
[01:02:07]  Unfortunately, he wants to be seen as a hero.
[01:02:09]  He has to create fans and villains.
[01:02:11]  Because, again, I'm sure there are white supremacists.
[01:02:16]  But I actually replied to that.
[01:02:17]  I said, look, I can't think of a.
[01:02:21]  I can't imagine that there is a faithful church member, a truly faithful, genuine member of a church who supports white supremacy.
[01:02:31]  What are you talking about?

=== Racism And The Veil Lifted (03:58) ===

[01:02:33]  There is none.
[01:02:34]  Because he doesn't just say, like, there's white supremacists.
[01:02:37]  Somewhere out there in the world, or even in our nation, or even in our government, or even among police officers.
[01:02:43]  The quote, what he specifically says is this should be uncontroversial, you know, to condemn white supremacy without qualification.
[01:02:52]  This should be uncontroversial within the church, but unfortunately, that cannot be assumed right now.
[01:02:58]  So, what he's saying is, in this moment, in this cultural moment, we cannot assume within the context of the evangelical church that it is uncontroversial to say white supremacy is a sin.
[01:03:12]  And I just, yeah, I'm just like, man, what world are you living in?
[01:03:18]  I would say the world is living in a critical race theory world, right?
[01:03:22]  Which assumes that traditional Americanism, that frankly, traditional evangelicalism, traditional biblical Christianity is white supremacist.
[01:03:35]  Now, I'm not saying he is saying that necessarily, but he's influenced by that kind of thinking.
[01:03:40]  So, people who would have put Trump are white supremacists.
[01:03:44]  People who are pro life people or abolitionists who are not.
[01:03:51]  Who are not from womb to tomb, Koh Lai people.
[01:03:55]  Who aren't socialists, because we are womb to tomb.
[01:03:57]  We just think socialism doesn't help people to.
[01:04:01]  Well, we would just say, if you want to be womb to tomb really quick, where the tomb stage comes real early, be a socialist.
[01:04:08]  I'm not a socialist.
[01:04:10]  So it's not like we care about the unborn child, but then we don't care about the child when they're born.
[01:04:13]  That's the false dichotomy.
[01:04:14]  But no, we care about the child, not just when they're in the womb, but when they're out of the womb.
[01:04:19]  And that's precisely why we aren't Democrats.
[01:04:22]  It's not just that I'm not a Democrat because of abortion.
[01:04:24]  I'm also not a Democrat because I care about born people.
[01:04:28]  Because socialism is highly effective in gaining equal outcome in terms of economic effects, but by only reaching the common lowest denominator.
[01:04:40]  Socialism, in other words, is highly effective in ensuring that everybody starves, everybody's poor.
[01:04:46]  So, yeah, I'm not a socialist, but not because I don't care about life, but because I do.
[01:04:50]  I do care about life.
[01:04:52]  Exactly, exactly.
[01:04:53]  I completely agree with you.
[01:04:55]  I grew up in a nation, like many African nations, that was very much influenced by communism and socialism.
[01:05:01]  Not to get too much into my personal life, but I will say that.
[01:05:06]  So, one of the reasons why my father left my mom and me before I was born is because of the consequences of communism.
[01:05:14]  Ghana, in the late 80s when I was born, was very poor because of communism.
[01:05:21]  And that let now my dad's sin.
[01:05:23]  But my dad's sin was, he was tempted by a sinful ideology, communism, that just made his own heart even worse.
[01:05:33]  And that's true for so many Ghanaians and so many Africans where life, one of the reasons why Africa doesn't get talked about a lot, one of the reasons why Africa is where it is now is because of liberation leaders, it's because of communism in Africa.
[01:05:50]  And you talk about woke thinking, it's been around for decades.
[01:05:57]  Socialism, all these things have been there for a long time and have been destroying people.
[01:06:02]  It does not lead to life.
[01:06:03]  It leads to death.
[01:06:04]  It leads to abortion.
[01:06:06]  It leads to mass murdering.
[01:06:08]  It leads to bread lines.
[01:06:11]  It leads to all these things that people claim they're against, but they're not.
[01:06:14]  And again, it should be very, very simple in that the idea that even now, people can talk about how well, as Tim Keller talked about, he's not quite sure the best way or the Bible says the best way or the right way.
[01:06:27]  To address the abortion issue.
[01:06:29]  Well, I mean, that's probably a different time.

=== Struggles With Racism And Supremacy (04:10) ===

[01:06:32]  But yet, they will never say that about white supremacy.
[01:06:35]  When it comes to white supremacy, they are so direct.
[01:06:38]  They are so explicit.
[01:06:40]  When it comes to abortion and other actual real issues that we're dealing with, it's, well, let's be more nuanced about that.
[01:06:48]  You're absolutely right.
[01:06:49]  Yeah.
[01:06:49]  They're never saying, oh, well, this white supremacist, who was he influenced by?
[01:06:55]  And maybe he wasn't of sound mind.
[01:06:57]  And maybe he didn't really know that, you know, like he hates black people, but maybe he didn't really know that black people are equal in value to white people.
[01:07:06]  But that's exactly the rhetoric.
[01:07:07]  It's like, well, this mother, she didn't really know that that baby was actually a baby.
[01:07:11]  I mean, can you imagine if you apply that same rhetoric to the white supremacist?
[01:07:15]  He didn't really know that he thought black people were a subclass of humans.
[01:07:19]  And that's what he thought.
[01:07:21]  And so he shouldn't have full penalties.
[01:07:23]  He should have less penalties or no penalties.
[01:07:26]  We would never in a million years.
[01:07:28]  That's just been a helpful tool for me with any kind of the Revoy stuff.
[01:07:34]  It's like, okay, input pedophilia, input some kind of other sin.
[01:07:39]  And see if you can say it without blushing.
[01:07:42]  And if you can't, then that's how you know there's something fishy.
[01:07:46]  Go ahead, you were going to say something.
[01:07:47]  I'll tell you something that someone on Twitter sent to me in reply to a tweet about white supremacy and black supremacy.
[01:07:56]  And this person said that, well, I don't think black supremacy is very common in America.
[01:08:01]  But even if it was, I would understand it.
[01:08:04]  This person is, this is what we're dealing with here, right?
[01:08:08]  No one would understand a white supremacist whatsoever.
[01:08:11]  I always say that, you know, and I actually know some people who struggle with racism, who struggle with racism against me, right?
[01:08:19]  And it's because they were harmed in the past by some black people.
[01:08:23]  And now they have a resentment against some black people.
[01:08:27]  I know that we should not repay evil for evil.
[01:08:30]  So I say, hey, that's wrong.
[01:08:32]  I'm sorry about the evil against you, but you need to repent as well.
[01:08:35]  Well, the same is true for black supremacists as well, too, who may have been hurt by white people in the past.
[01:08:41]  I don't know.
[01:08:42]  And then now they want to hurt white people as well, too.
[01:08:44]  They're both.
[01:08:46]  Unfortunately, so many people right now in the church cannot say that.
[01:08:49]  When Wakushia happened, when he had all these other attacks from black supremacists, they were silent.
[01:08:53]  They were not having long Twitter threads by people like Beth Moore or other guys complaining about how much they hate black supremacy.
[01:09:02]  They were being very quiet.
[01:09:03]  But unfortunately, when the white supremacist attack happened, then they saw an opportunity to frankly signal their virtue for the whole world.
[01:09:13]  You're absolutely right.
[01:09:15]  I feel like this has been really helpful.
[01:09:16]  I hope our listeners enjoyed it.
[01:09:18]  I hope they learned a lot.
[01:09:19]  I feel like I learned.
[01:09:20]  Just a great conversation.
[01:09:22]  I've been wanting to do this with you for a while, probably over a year, but things have just been crazy.
[01:09:27]  It's a crazy world that we're living in.
[01:09:28]  But I feel hopeful.
[01:09:29]  I feel like Aslan is on the move.
[01:09:32]  I feel like God is doing something.
[01:09:33]  And so thanks for coming on the show.
[01:09:35]  Let our listeners know how they can keep up with you?
[01:09:37]  How can they follow you?
[01:09:38]  Yeah.
[01:09:38]  Well, when I'll say this, I now have a favorite abolitionist.
[01:09:44]  I really enjoy this, Chad.
[01:09:45]  Thank you.
[01:09:45]  And I hope I was coherent.
[01:09:47]  It's been a long day for me.
[01:09:49]  Hopefully, I was able to make sense.
[01:09:50]  I very much appreciate the wisdom from you, and hopefully, I was helpful to you and to the audience.
[01:09:56]  But where they can find me is on social media.
[01:10:00]  They can find me across Instagram, Facebook, Twitter as SlowToWrite.
[01:10:04]  And they can also find me on my blog at slowtoWrite.com.
[01:10:08]  And do you have?
[01:10:08]  I think I pulled up SlowToWrite, your website, and it looks like you have a podcast now, too.
[01:10:12]  Is that right?
[01:10:14]  Not yet.
[01:10:15]  Not yet.
[01:10:16]  I'm working on that soon, though.
[01:10:17]  There will be a podcast soon.
[01:10:18]  Cool.
[01:10:19]  At least on the website, it was me preparing for that eventually.
[01:10:22]  Gotcha.
[01:10:22]  Cool.
[01:10:23]  Well, I'm looking forward to that.
[01:10:23]  All right.
[01:10:24]  Well, thanks again for coming on the show.
[01:10:25]  God bless you.
[01:10:26]  Thanks so much for listening.
[01:10:27]  But, real quick, before you go, do us a small favor.
[01:10:30]  Take a moment and leave us a five star review if you enjoyed the show.
[01:10:34]  This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.
[01:10:42]  Thanks so much.