NXR Podcast - QUESTIONS - Is Equality A Worthy Pursuit?
Aired: 2022-03-25
Duration: 05:48


=== Justice vs Equality of Outcome (05:29) ===

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[00:00:22]  Is equality, kind of with your talk, even something to be strived after as a virtue?
[00:00:28]  Clearly, it is not something to be achieved via government.
[00:00:32]  But even in the new heaven and new earth, will there be equality or will hierarchies among humans continue into eternity?
[00:00:41]  All right.
[00:00:42]  I don't think equality is a virtue.
[00:00:44]  So that's number one.
[00:00:45]  And there's not saying I endorse all of C.S. Lewis's theology.
[00:00:49]  He has an interesting essay where he talks about this.
[00:00:53]  And I can't remember all his arguments in the essay, but I think it comes down to it's a state of being and it could be beneficial in certain circumstances, but it's not a virtue in like love or these intangibles that we.
[00:01:06]  Like courage, we were just talking about.
[00:01:07]  Like, these are virtues that can really, like, you don't, you don't, like, watch Bob going down this, like, Bob, he's so equal, like, right?
[00:01:14]  But Bob, Bob is, Bob, yeah, Bob can be, like, charitable.
[00:01:19]  Bob can be compassionate.
[00:01:20]  Bob can't be equal.
[00:01:21]  So, equal is not really a virtue.
[00:01:23]  But as far as hierarchies in heaven, I mean, there's always going to be a hierarchy between God and, right, creation and, so that's, like, the Peter Jones, like, twoism, oneism, twoism thing, right?
[00:01:36]  So, yeah, I think so.
[00:01:38]  But, So here's the question, and this is probably, I would assume AD probably agrees with this, and I think you'd agree with this too, Joel, that people that are egalitarian, they're usually looking for verses that can somehow forward their agenda.
[00:01:54]  So when they say, like, oh, every tribe, tongue, nation, around the throne, like, all there, like, equally, no, they're all the same.
[00:02:00]  We should just diversify your church.
[00:02:01]  That's what that means.
[00:02:02]  Or we're all one in Christ.
[00:02:04]  There's no slave.
[00:02:05]  There's no, you know, there's all these distinctions that exist in the temporal world.
[00:02:10]  Like, they don't apply in heaven or something.
[00:02:12]  I think they're just trying to grab something that might fit into what they already believe most of the time.
[00:02:18]  And so, and probably misinterpreting it for the most part, because we do keep some of those distinctions, otherwise, there wouldn't be tribes, tongues, and nations in heaven.
[00:02:25]  There's still some distinction there when you get to heaven.
[00:02:27]  So, I don't know.
[00:02:29]  Yeah, I want you to expand on that.
[00:02:30]  So, my thought is yeah, so equality is not a virtue.
[00:02:32]  Justices.
[00:02:33]  Justices.
[00:02:34]  And as you all know, there's a difference between equality and equity.
[00:02:37]  And so, equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome.
[00:02:41]  Those are two different things.
[00:02:42]  And so, first, you have to define terms.
[00:02:44]  What do you mean by equal?
[00:02:45]  And often what they mean is equality of outcome, which is really the heart of egalitarianism equality of outcome.
[00:02:51]  And here's why that's not a virtue.
[00:02:53]  It's not a virtue, not simply because it's abstract or because it's lacking in virtue, but it actually has a presence of sin.
[00:03:03]  The opposite it's not just non virtuous, it's unvirtuous.
[00:03:09]  Equality of outcome is injustice.
[00:03:12]  It requires equality of outcome, it requires injustice.
[00:03:15]  So equality is not a virtue, but justice is.
[00:03:18]  And justice, I believe, under the law in a judicial system does it mandate equality of opportunity, equal under the law, equal justice, equal weights and measures, two or three witnesses, not just, you know, me too.
[00:03:31]  I said it, believe all women.
[00:03:32]  You know, the first person who runs into the room is not always the victim.
[00:03:36]  Sometimes they're lying, which actually means the person they're lying about is the true victim, right?
[00:03:40]  So it's not equity, it's equality.
[00:03:42]  And when we say equality, equality in and of itself is not a virtue, but equality of opportunity and equality under the law.
[00:03:50]  If we're speaking of equality in those terms, then what we're actually talking about is justice, and justice is a virtue.
[00:03:56]  So, justice produces equality, not of outcome, but equality of opportunity.
[00:04:00]  And in that sense, justice is a virtue.
[00:04:02]  And I believe that that can be achieved in physical ways, tangible, practical, temporal ways, through government.
[00:04:08]  So, the question says clearly it's not something to be achieved via government, but I would argue that actually is the role of government.
[00:04:13]  And God assigned it to government.
[00:04:15]  So, we have sovereign spheres, they each have their jurisdiction, they each have their roles and responsibilities.
[00:04:19]  And one of the roles of the civil sphere is equality of opportunity, equality under the law.
[00:04:25]  So, I would say that.
[00:04:27]  Insofar as we're speaking of equality in that sense, we're speaking of justice, and justice is the chief ministry of the state.
[00:04:34]  Whereas the church is a ministry of word and sacrament, it's a ministry of mercy, it's gospel.
[00:04:40]  Whereas the state, it's not a ministry of, you know, so people are like, well, don't we want to have compassion and get rid of the death penalty?
[00:04:45]  Shouldn't we be compassionate?
[00:04:47]  The state is not called to compassion, it's called to justice.
[00:04:50]  They're God's avengers, vengeance, right?
[00:04:53]  That's why we don't take vengeance into our own hands.
[00:04:56]  We're not vigilantes because we haven't been given vengeance as a ministry by God.
[00:05:00]  As families, Individuals or churches.
[00:05:03]  The state, though, has.
[00:05:04]  That is their chief ministry, a ministry of vengeance, justice.
[00:05:08]  And because of that, I think the state actually is, in terms of society as a whole, the chief institute, divinely instituted by God Himself, that should be enacting justice.
[00:05:19]  And if we have a righteous state, they actually can achieve, through justice and just laws, equality, so long as we're speaking of equality of opportunity, equality under the law, and not equality of outcome.

=== God's Ministry of Vengeance (00:19) ===

[00:05:29]  Do you have any?
[00:05:30]  No, you guys got rid of it.
[00:05:31]  Good job.
[00:05:32]  Great.
[00:05:32]  Thanks so much for listening.
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[00:05:48]  Thanks so much.