NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How To Decide When To Leave The SBC
Aired: 2022-02-08
Duration: 01:05:27


=== Exciting News and Conference Announcement (06:05) ===

[00:00:00]  Hi, I'm Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:06]  In this episode, I was privileged to have as a special guest Dr. Josh Bice.
[00:00:10]  He is the president of G3 Ministries, and he's also a senior pastor of his local church in the great state of Georgia.
[00:00:18]  Now, Josh and I talked about his recent decision.
[00:00:21]  He and his elders and his whole congregation, they're a congregational church, and the congregation did vote on this matter.
[00:00:28]  They decided to leave the Southern Baptist Convention.
[00:00:31]  Now, he's talked about this on several occasions, and so you may have already Heard some episode or some podcast where Josh has been interviewed talking about this, but I tried to make this one a little bit unique.
[00:00:41]  So, one of the things that we did was kind of press the issue of this category of Christian liberty, this category of conscience, because Josh has used that term multiple times.
[00:00:51]  This was a matter of conscience.
[00:00:52]  You know, some guys may stay in, other guys may get out.
[00:00:55]  So, one of the things that I pressed him on in this interview, and he did a great job and was very humble and willing to dialogue about it, was when is it no longer a matter of conscience?
[00:01:05]  At what point is it sin?
[00:01:07]  For someone to remain in a denomination that is trending more and more towards unfaithfulness, as he and I would argue the SBC is.
[00:01:17]  So you're in for a real treat.
[00:01:19]  Without further ado, let's go ahead and jump in.
[00:01:21]  Real quick, before we get started, I've got some exciting news to announce.
[00:01:25]  I've got AD Robles and John Harris from Conversations That Matter coming out for a whole weekend in the month of March to join up on a Friday.
[00:01:35]  We're going to come in our studio right here, and all three of us are going to record a multiple part series.
[00:01:41]  On some of the subject matter that you guys have requested that the three of us address through our YouTube comments.
[00:01:48]  Some of you have emailed, we're taking that into consideration as well, but we're definitely looking at the YouTube comments.
[00:01:53]  We've asked you guys, hey, what are topics you want us to address?
[00:01:57]  And so the three of us are going to record for several hours a multiple part series in our studio right here in the great state of Texas in March, and we're going to be releasing that content over the coming weeks.
[00:02:08]  Now, here's the other thing that's on the Friday that they're going to be in town.
[00:02:12]  But on the Saturday, we're going to hold a one day conference.
[00:02:15]  Now, that's going to be March 12th, Saturday, March 12th.
[00:02:19]  It's going to be a one day conference where AD is going to do a session on practical, obedient defiance how to resist civil tyranny, how to resist medical tyranny, and how to do this in practical, on the ground ways as households, as head of households, husbands, fathers.
[00:02:36]  How do we resist as a family against the cancel culture and the tyranny and persecution that's coming to America?
[00:02:44]  That's going to be AD's session.
[00:02:45]  I'm going to do a session.
[00:02:47]  Called Debunking the Boogeyman of Christian Nationalism.
[00:02:51]  I'm going to kind of reveal the fallacies of the Gospel Coalition and all these kind of things.
[00:02:55]  Oh, Christian nationalists, the greatest threat to America.
[00:02:58]  I'm going to show why that's not biblical and how that's not actually happening.
[00:03:01]  And the irony that, if anything, Russell Moore, he's the type who is actually the Christian nationalist in a negative sense.
[00:03:08]  And then John Harris is going to do a session on social justice versus biblical justice.
[00:03:13]  Again, that's social justice and how it's completely opposed, completely opposite.
[00:03:19]  To biblical justice.
[00:03:21]  And lastly, the three of us are going to come up all together and spend a whole hour doing QA.
[00:03:26]  We're going to take live questions from the audience and address those questions.
[00:03:31]  It's going to be a great time.
[00:03:32]  You'll get to meet John Harris, you'll get to meet Adi Robles, you'll get to meet myself.
[00:03:35]  So if you're anywhere in the area in Williamson County, or if you're in Austin, Texas, or you're north of Williamson County, or to the west, or to the east, and you want to come out and join us for that one day conference Saturday, March 12th, come on out.
[00:03:49]  It's free registration.
[00:03:51]  We're going to have some refreshments free.
[00:03:53]  Everything's free.
[00:03:54]  So, we're paying out of pocket as a ministry to make this happen.
[00:03:57]  We're covering the cost to fly out John and AD to put them up in a hotel.
[00:04:01]  So, you don't have to pay a dime to show up and attend this.
[00:04:05]  However, for anybody who wants to be generous and help us offset these costs, you can do so donating towards this conference by simply going to rightresponseministries.comslash donate.
[00:04:17]  Again, that's rightresponseministries.comslash donate.
[00:04:21]  Now, to find the address, physical location for the conference, and exact times for each of the sessions for that Saturday, March 12th, Again, go to our website, rightresponseministries.com.
[00:04:32]  Click on the menu button at the top and scroll down, and you'll find conference.
[00:04:36]  Click on conference, you'll find all the details that you need.
[00:04:40]  And one of the details there that we need is although registration is free, there's a form at the bottom that says RSVP.
[00:04:47]  We would really appreciate if you could let us know whether or not you're coming and how many people you plan on bringing with you, right?
[00:04:55]  If you've got 10 kids, God bless you for having 10 kids, but we would like to know that you're bringing yourself, your wife, and your 10 kids.
[00:05:02]  Please come.
[00:05:03]  But please let us know so that we can adequately prepare for this.
[00:05:06]  The last thing that I'll say is that that Sunday, which would be March 13th, for anybody who wants to join our church, Covenant Bible Church, John Harris will stay in town.
[00:05:17]  He's going to linger and he's going to preach that Sunday morning at our Lord's Day worship service.
[00:05:21]  That's 9 30 a.m. on Sunday, March 13th at my church that I pastor.
[00:05:27]  Again, that's Covenant Bible Church.
[00:05:29]  We're in Georgetown, Texas.
[00:05:31]  That's the Williamson County area.
[00:05:32]  So if you're in Williamson County or you're in North Austin or you're somewhere, Nearby, and you don't have a church home, if you've got a church home, go there.
[00:05:40]  But if you don't have a church home, you're looking for a church that has courage, that has biblical fidelity, and you want to hear John Harris preach a dynamite sermon from the Word of God, then come and join us again Sunday, March 13th.
[00:05:53]  You can find details or directions to join our church that Sunday morning at covenantbible.org.
[00:06:00]  Our website for Covenant Bible Church is covenantbible.org.

=== Leaving the SBC for Covenant Church (04:28) ===

[00:06:05]  Without further ado, let's go ahead and jump into our episode.
[00:06:09]  Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
[00:06:12]  This is Theology Applied.
[00:06:19]  All right, so here we are with another episode of Theology Applied, and I have as a special guest Dr. Josh Beiss coming on the show.
[00:06:27]  He is the founder, I guess, founder and president of G3 Ministries.
[00:06:31]  Yeah, that's correct.
[00:06:32]  Yeah, it's good to be with you.
[00:06:33]  Great.
[00:06:33]  And what's the name of your church that you're the pastor of?
[00:06:36]  Yeah, I serve as the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church on the west side of Atlanta.
[00:06:40]  Great.
[00:06:41]  Well, thanks for coming on the show.
[00:06:42]  And I just want to go ahead and dive in because I only really have three questions for you.
[00:06:47]  And I sent them to you ahead of time, but I think there's a lot that could be discussed with them.
[00:06:51]  I know some of this you've already discussed.
[00:06:52]  I've seen some of the things that you've posted since the conference where you let people know on the panel that you were on that your church has decided to leave the SBC.
[00:07:02]  Your church predates the Southern Baptist Convention, and you've been a part of it forever, long before you were ever born.
[00:07:09]  Your church was a part of it, but you guys decided to go ahead and cut ties.
[00:07:12]  So, I know you've already talked about this at some length, but just to catch some of our listeners who maybe haven't heard this already, what were you and your elders' primary reasons for cutting ties with the SBC?
[00:07:24]  Yeah, that's a great question.
[00:07:25]  So, the main reason was just in terms of a lack of confidence in leadership, a loss of confidence in a couple of main areas, which I think really sums up the existence and the purpose of the SBC as a whole.
[00:07:42]  When you think about the Southern Baptist Convention, it was founded for the purpose of both theological education and church planting and missions.
[00:07:50]  And when a church loses confidence in a denominational group like the SBC on those two big main pillars, you might say, well, then really at the end of the day, it's just a logical decision.
[00:08:05]  I mean, there's really no point in staying engaged.
[00:08:08]  But then there's another layer as well, as far as like a conscience layer.
[00:08:13]  And then I think a A stewardship layer as well.
[00:08:17]  So, when we think of theological education, as far as the seminaries and the Bible colleges, those organizations that make up what we might call the educational arm of the SBC, if people that come to me or that I have a voice into their life and ministry and they say, What school should I attend?
[00:08:39]  And if someone within my local church or even someone outside of my local church through like G3 and the network, If I'm sending them consistently to other schools outside of the SBC, then that certainly is a problem.
[00:08:55]  And so then, you know, we have to ask ourselves the honest question about, you know, our engagement, the money that we might be giving to further that agenda.
[00:09:06]  And then, of course, as it pertains to the church planting arm, if we would not recommend if someone left our church and moved, say, to Houston, Texas, or to, say, somewhere in Kansas, for instance, And they said, What church would you recommend?
[00:09:23]  You know, if I'm not sending them to one of the churches that we're planting, and that's a problem.
[00:09:28]  And if those churches are served by elders that we would not have as elders in our local church by and large.
[00:09:36]  And I know that that might sound like a massive broad brush.
[00:09:40]  Right.
[00:09:41]  And to some degree it is.
[00:09:42]  And so I'll accept that.
[00:09:44]  But for the most part, we would not accept these elders into our local church as elders.
[00:09:50]  So, when we think about that, it really doesn't make any sense for us to stay engaged in the Southern Baptist Convention.
[00:09:57]  But then you can take it up a notch when it comes to, say, being a good steward of your time and your influence or even your finances.
[00:10:07]  And so, when we have individuals like Ed Litton, who is elected as the president of the Southern Baptist Convention to represent all of the SBC churches as a model as far as what a pastor should represent, and then, of Course in preaching as he preaches in chapel services at various seminaries within the SBC network.
[00:10:30]  Here's a man who's been engaged in a scandal.

=== Sermon Gate and Historical Problems (02:16) ===

[00:10:34]  This is after he was elected, as far as plagiarism is concerned, and now it's been called Sermon Gate.
[00:10:40]  And he's yet to really admit it and repent.
[00:10:45]  He sort of tried to dodge these things.
[00:10:48]  But even prior to his election, I mean, he's certainly not a complementarian, whatever he might be.
[00:10:55]  And he's co preaching with his wife.
[00:10:57]  And so, certainly, we would reject his theological positions as it pertains to preaching philosophy and methodology.
[00:11:07]  And so, these are massive problems.
[00:11:09]  And then, of course, we have the historical social justice problem that's been plaguing the SBC for some time, that was brought to really the spotlight, you might say, brought down on this issue back in 2018.
[00:11:23]  And so, that's just been a continuous problem.
[00:11:26]  And so, when we Adopted Resolution 9 in 2019 in Birmingham, that was in many ways a watershed moment for the SBC.
[00:11:38]  And looking back, I can see where the lights came on for a whole lot of people at that point.
[00:11:43]  You've got to remember my involvement.
[00:11:45]  I was the year prior in 2018, I wrote an article that was titled The SBC at the Intersection of Intersectionality.
[00:11:54]  And there was a professor that, and this was written one week or so before the annual meeting in June, and one of the SBC professors tweeted it out or retweeted it.
[00:12:05]  Within a couple of hours, Russell Moore had.
[00:12:08]  Already contacted his provost, had him rebuked, and he had to delete the tweet.
[00:12:14]  So he reached out to me in a private text message and told me what had happened.
[00:12:19]  And yet he still believed that I was speaking the truth and that sort of thing.
[00:12:24]  So we had some private conversations about that.
[00:12:27]  What they were doing and what they were saying at that point was that I was exaggerating and that others like me were exaggerating.
[00:12:34]  And then, of course, we would eventually meet in 2018 that summer in Dallas for the Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel.
[00:12:42]  And they would say, We're exaggerating.
[00:12:44]  There is no social justice movement.
[00:12:46]  We're simply mistreating people.

=== Private Conversations on Political Tweets (04:53) ===

[00:12:50]  We're approaching this thing from the wrong angle.
[00:12:52]  I mean, they had all sorts of things to say about us.
[00:12:56]  And then the very next summer, they brought before the convention a resolution on critical race theory and intersectionality, and we accepted it, we adopted it.
[00:13:09]  So that's problematic.
[00:13:10]  And then they tried to pass it as a block.
[00:13:13]  Absolutely.
[00:13:13]  I mean, there was all sorts of political maneuvering that took place on the floor to get it to the vote.
[00:13:20]  That's a whole different story.
[00:13:22]  Yeah, that's a whole different story.
[00:13:24]  But when it came to this year, or this past year, you might say 2021 in Nashville, and all of the attempts from the floor to go on record publicly to repudiate these godless ideologies like critical race theory and intersectionality.
[00:13:43]  At every given turn, they refused to do it.
[00:13:47]  And so that was just writing on the wall.
[00:13:49]  It was confirmation.
[00:13:50]  I remember the group of men that were with me from my church.
[00:13:54]  We went to eat supper after the convention concluded that day.
[00:13:59]  And we talked about, we debriefed.
[00:14:01]  And I said, you know, I don't know that we're going to be able to stay engaged.
[00:14:04]  That's going to be a decision that myself and the elders and then eventually our church will have to come to a decision on this.
[00:14:12]  But was that a congregational vote for your church or was that an elder vote?
[00:14:18]  Well, it was both.
[00:14:19]  I mean, the elders, so our church government is an elder led church with congregational authority.
[00:14:26]  So are we.
[00:14:27]  The congregation gives us authority to lead, but on big, big decisions, we have to have the congregation's approval and affirmation.
[00:14:35]  And so through months of prayer and talks, we as elders decided that this was the right move.
[00:14:42]  And then eventually it was brought to a church vote at the end of 2021.
[00:14:46]  Yeah.
[00:14:48]  Yeah, man, that's a lot.
[00:14:49]  I completely agree.
[00:14:50]  It's, you know, for me, I remember it just felt uncanny.
[00:14:53]  I remember watching, you know, what went down with the SBC convention, not in 2019, but in 2020.
[00:15:01]  And I remember just seeing how, like, the comparison just seemed to be so similar between what was happening with our nation as a whole, right?
[00:15:10]  Like, even the little, you know, Twitter battle, you know, that happened during, as the convention is going on in real time with Mike Stone, you know, and like, Oh, look, he's not the good Samaritan who would stop.
[00:15:21]  He's the busy priest who won't get his clothes dirty.
[00:15:25]  Here's this woman crying and he doesn't care.
[00:15:27]  And I remember just thinking, like, okay, I feel like, didn't we just do this?
[00:15:34]  There's one guy who is the embodiment.
[00:15:36]  He's empathy incarnate, right?
[00:15:39]  And there's this other guy who's mean and, you know, and he has conservative policies, but he's mean.
[00:15:44]  It doesn't care, you know.
[00:15:46]  But this other guy, he's, you know, he's empathetic and he wants to, you know, unite the country again.
[00:15:52]  And then you look at the margin with, you know, with the vote in the SBC and then the margin in our nation with, you know, the national vote.
[00:15:59]  And I was like, I don't know if there's any difference between the SBC and America, you know, and, but I say that.
[00:16:07]  But then, you know, what's happening in Virginia, you know, and like with, you know, Youngkin gets elected, you know, and immediately keeping good on some of his promises, you know, with, you know, trying to get critical race theory out of the schools and all those kinds of things.
[00:16:19]  And so I see what happens in Virginia, you know, and I'm thinking about what happened, you know, with Resolution 9.
[00:16:24]  I'm like, well, I guess, you know, there's not an exact comparison.
[00:16:27]  Turns out the state of Virginia is more conservative than the SBC.
[00:16:31]  So that's maybe a little harsh, but I was just looking at it and I was like, we're supposed to be salt, we're supposed to be light.
[00:16:36]  Like, I should be able to look at a mainline Bible believing denomination and say, That is starkly different.
[00:16:43]  There's a stark distinction between the people of God and the nation as a whole.
[00:16:49]  There's a difference between the Christian and the pagan.
[00:16:52]  But I was looking at the same issues and the same voting margins for the most part.
[00:16:57]  I mean, it was just uncanny.
[00:16:58]  It was like, where's the saltiness?
[00:17:00]  Where's the light?
[00:17:01]  Where's the distinction?
[00:17:02]  It just feels like the SBC, like whatever happens in America, that's what we can expect.
[00:17:08]  And at that point, when the salt loses its saltiness, you know, somebody said something about that one time.
[00:17:13]  What is it?
[00:17:14]  You know, So, yeah, so I just started getting frustrated with that.
[00:17:17]  Any more thoughts on that question before we move on?
[00:17:19]  No, I think you're right on point.
[00:17:21]  I think that the tragedy in it all is that much of the typical political, national level politics that we see those tactics and strategies, they were actually at play.
[00:17:35]  It seemed like.
[00:17:37]  In the SBC election for president this year, we could see that taking place.

=== Gentle Reform and Faithful Churches (15:49) ===

[00:17:43]  But you're also right in the sense that.
[00:17:45]  You know, when we see things happening or being played out, if you will, in the cultural sphere, it's oftentimes this idea with a big tent approach to, you know, maintaining this massive size as an SBC network is that we feel like we have to suddenly virtue signal to every group out there to let them know that we're really not mean.
[00:18:08]  We really don't hate them and that sort of thing.
[00:18:11]  When really we can just preach the gospel and love people and have healthy churches and, And do missions and educate men for the pulpit.
[00:18:20]  And so we don't really have to get into the whole virtue signaling game.
[00:18:25]  But unfortunately, that's really where we've gone in this whole thing.
[00:18:29]  And so social justice and the critical race theory debate, intersectionality has just really gained wings, if you will.
[00:18:37]  And it's just, it's everywhere.
[00:18:39]  Yeah, you're absolutely right.
[00:18:40]  And when it comes to kindness, I mean, kindness is a fruit of the spirit, gentleness is a fruit of the spirit.
[00:18:45]  But I think the problem is that people, they truncate it, they make it too overly simplistic.
[00:18:51]  You know, when Jesus is calling, you know, religious rulers of his day whitewashed tombs, right?
[00:18:56]  You look nice on the outside, but you're a rotting corpse and smell like death on the inside.
[00:19:01]  That's who you truly are.
[00:19:02]  Or a brood of vipers, you know.
[00:19:05]  Jesus, so, right?
[00:19:07]  So, okay, that gives some of my, you know, doctrine, you know, theology proper doctrine of God.
[00:19:10]  But, you know, so I would hold to divine simplicity and some of those that God cannot be severed in parts.
[00:19:16]  And Jesus, the God man, I don't think there was ever a moment that he is not perfectly embodying.
[00:19:21]  All the fruit of the Spirit simultaneously in full measure, which means there was never a time that Jesus is not being gentle.
[00:19:26]  The fruit of the Spirit, I wouldn't see them as a toolbox, taking out a hammer for one task and putting it back, taking out a wrench for another.
[00:19:32]  I would see all the fruit of the Spirit operating in full measure all the time in the God man, in Jesus Christ, which means when Jesus is fashioning a whip and overturning tables in the temple and all those moments, Jesus is showing us perfect gentleness.
[00:19:45]  And my fear is that Christians have so narrowly defined gentleness that it precludes the Son of God, which means we've got a really big problem.
[00:19:54]  And I think one of the ways to understand Jesus as being gentle in those seemingly harsh moments is just keeping in mind that there's always more than just one other party.
[00:20:04]  So, what seems like harshness to this party over here is gentleness for the group over here that's being targeted and oppressed by them.
[00:20:14]  And so, you know, so like, you know, I preached against transgenderism and homosexuality January 16th.
[00:20:21]  I'm not sure that the date that this recording will come out, but January 16th, which for us was last Sunday.
[00:20:27]  And it's like, I am being gentle towards Christian parents and Christian pastors in Canada who are under the threat of legal penalty and jail time.
[00:20:39]  For offering the message of the gospel and hope, because evangelism has effectively been banned in Canada and fast tracked by the conservative members of parliament with a unanimous, not one dissenting vote.
[00:20:52]  And so I'm not being harsh, I'm not being cruel.
[00:20:54]  I would see that as I am being gentle.
[00:20:57]  And so I think in the SBC, faithful guys in the past, yourself, but then other guys like Mike Stone or guys like Tom Askell, the founders' guys, I see those guys as absolutely the most gentle, some of the most gentle men I know.
[00:21:11]  And what a gentle man does when someone is being assaulted and under attack and preyed upon, actually, P R E Y E D, preyed upon, to be exploited as simply the virtue signaling of some other party for the sake of power and their own agenda, gentleness to that individual who's being preyed upon may look like harshness towards the actual offender, the actual person attacking.
[00:21:39]  But I just thought that, as Christians, We knew that.
[00:21:43]  I thought that we had that level of discernment, that level of wisdom.
[00:21:46]  To me, that's like basic.
[00:21:48]  Anybody who's a pastor should be able to know that the first person who runs into your office saying that they were abused, saying they were mistreated, is not necessarily the innocent party.
[00:21:56]  And in fact, we have two or three, right?
[00:21:59]  Two or three come, we weigh it.
[00:22:01]  And if it turns out that they're lying, then not only are they not the abused or the victim, they're the victimizer.
[00:22:07]  They actually are bearing false witness and oppressing someone else.
[00:22:10]  And I just thought that was basic biblical justice, basic understanding of.
[00:22:14]  And it seems like that is becoming increasingly rare, not just in Christians, not just in the nation, but among pastors today.
[00:22:22]  Would you agree with that assessment?
[00:22:24]  Wholeheartedly.
[00:22:25]  I think, you know, when Jesus approaches a woman at the well and he deals with her sin, he does that because he's demonstrating what gentleness and love looks like.
[00:22:36]  Amen.
[00:22:37]  But when we become a people who are afraid to speak the truth in love, then it's really the most unloving position that we could take.
[00:22:45]  And that's what we're seeing with the SBC.
[00:22:48]  It's taking that leftward drift to where we're almost handcuffed in such a way that we have to virtue signal about every oppressed group and individual.
[00:23:00]  And pretty soon it's going to eventually tank.
[00:23:04]  And that's one of the reasons that we have decided to exit, is because at this point, I'm not really confident.
[00:23:10]  I know I have brothers that are staying in the SBC and they want to fight and they want to try to reform and that sort of thing.
[00:23:19]  But I'm really not convinced that the SBC is redeemable at this point.
[00:23:24]  I don't think that there's going to be, and I really pray that I'm wrong, but I don't really see another conservative resurgence happening.
[00:23:34]  Yeah, well, so that gets us right into where I want to go with this, which is you have said multiple times now, I've seen you in a couple different, I saw you, I think, with Justin Peters, and I saw the original panel from the conference where you were saying you made the announcement, at least to the larger public context that I was a part of, that you guys were cutting ties and pulling out of the SBC.
[00:23:57]  In all these contexts, you know, you've carefully, and I think you're right to do it.
[00:24:00]  I don't think it's, you know, I don't think you're just, you know, mincing words or being overly careful because it is a legitimate theological category.
[00:24:08]  And you say, you know, this is, it's in the arena of conscience, right?
[00:24:13]  Christian liberty conscience.
[00:24:15]  However, you and I both know that we don't just get to throw something in the area of conscience because brothers disagree on it.
[00:24:23]  Sometimes a brother is just wrong.
[00:24:27]  It's like, well, you think, you know, you're conscious.
[00:24:29]  So maybe your conscience is pricked.
[00:24:31]  That could be because it's a matter of conscience.
[00:24:33]  It also could be because your conscience is seared, right, by blindness or sin or ignorance or whatever it may be.
[00:24:40]  And so at this point, I would agree with what I've heard you say in other contexts that this is a legitimate matter of conscience, meaning just to be painfully clear, like a brother like Tom Askell, who I know you appreciate, I appreciate, president with Founders Ministries.
[00:24:55]  We've had him on the show before, a phenomenal man of God.
[00:24:57]  I would not say by any stretch that Tom Askell.
[00:25:00]  Is in sin by keeping his church, you know, and leading them to remain in the SBC at this time.
[00:25:06]  However, there is an objective point.
[00:25:08]  Now, it's hard to define, but this is kind of what I want to pick your brain about.
[00:25:12]  It's hard to define.
[00:25:13]  You and I are neither of us are saying that the SBC is there yet, but there does come a point where if the SBC crosses this line, blank, blank, and blank, then you can no longer, it's no longer a matter of conscience.
[00:25:26]  It is objectively compromised to.
[00:25:31]  To be in the SBC, so I worded the question like this I'll just stick to my script and what I wrote here.
[00:25:36]  I said, You said multiple times that a church's decision of whether or not to leave the SBC is a matter of conscience.
[00:25:42]  So, at what point is a local church required by scripture to leave a denomination?
[00:25:46]  It could be the SBC or, for guys who aren't a part of that, even broader, any denomination.
[00:25:50]  What would the SBC have to do in order to force the hand of biblically faithful churches to leave it?
[00:25:57]  Personally, I would argue that there are two sides of the equation.
[00:26:00]  I think, on the one hand, The degree of compromise within the SBC must be carefully considered.
[00:26:06]  On the other hand, the degree of contribution from a local church must also be considered.
[00:26:11]  In other words, if a local church can participate in an organization such as the SBC with a minimal contribution of time and talent, treasure, then that church may be capable of tolerating, with a clear conscience before the Lord, a higher degree of the SBC's compromise.
[00:26:30]  In short, remaining in the SBC for the sake of reformation seems to be justifiable, but Only if a local church is fighting more than it is funding.
[00:26:42]  What do you think about that?
[00:26:43]  What are your thoughts?
[00:26:44]  Yeah, I really like the way that you phrased the last part of it fighting more than funding for those who are staying in for reform, like Tom Askell or Tom Buck or whoever it might be.
[00:26:55]  And there are many pastors, by the way.
[00:26:58]  So, I just want to be clear as I seek to try to unpack this question, this answer, is that when I make the statements that I've made, and I certainly did this in the article that I wrote as well, I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that every person that's employed by the SBC at any level, whether that's a state convention level or whether it be at a seminary level or whatever,
[00:27:25]  or even those who are staying in the SBC, I'm not suggesting that they've all Abandon the faith or that they're all compromisers because there are many, many godly men and women who are part of the SBC.
[00:27:40]  Unfortunately, there's an elite structure of leadership at the top where there's an awful lot of churches that make up the more than 40,000 churches that represent the SBC that never show up.
[00:27:54]  Not even one messenger from their church shows up at the annual meeting every year.
[00:27:59]  So there's only a small percentage.
[00:28:01]  I mean, when you think about more than 40,000 churches, Who can send upwards of 10 or more messengers from their church to represent their local church to vote during the business sessions?
[00:28:15]  And yet, we're doing really good if we can get 7,000 people at a convention.
[00:28:21]  And so, when you think about how few people actually show up or even know what's happening politically speaking, that's a problem.
[00:28:32]  So, stewardship is extremely important.
[00:28:34]  But there's a lot of really good churches that have.
[00:28:38]  Not really come to see the issues, I think.
[00:28:42]  I earnestly believe that there are a lot of really godly churches and faithful churches, healthy churches, and good pastors that are just disconnected from the SBC.
[00:28:51]  And they think that, well, we won the war on inerrancy.
[00:28:54]  And so they keep sending money, like 10% of their undesignated receipts every year from their church to fund the SBC, all the while not sending a messenger to the annual meeting.
[00:29:06]  So they don't know what's being talked about.
[00:29:08]  And so, you know, we're living in a time where we really need to reconsider our financial investments.
[00:29:15]  We need to think critically about what we're funding.
[00:29:18]  So I would say, to the point of where's the line in the sand for absolute necessity of separation, I would say it's the gospel.
[00:29:28]  Whenever the gospel is perverted, then you don't really have to pray about it anymore.
[00:29:34]  You need to get out immediately.
[00:29:37]  But then there's going to be all sorts of other issues like, okay, well, if it's not a Perversion of the gospel yet, then how close to that line are we?
[00:29:45]  And that's again with critical race theory and the whole talk of intersectionality and the way that things are being approached politically makes me extremely nervous.
[00:29:57]  And I don't see any way forward for us.
[00:30:00]  So for us, it was a conscience issue and it was a stewardship issue, as you've made clear in the question.
[00:30:08]  And so we really couldn't stay in anymore because you see, the SBC is a pay to play sort of system.
[00:30:14]  So, if you're going to be a part of the SBC, you have to check the box on the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, and you have to give money.
[00:30:24]  And for us, we came to a place where we said, we don't want to give one more dollar to the SBC.
[00:30:30]  And so, in order to stay in and fight and to seek reform, we would have to continue to fund the SBC at some level.
[00:30:40]  Now, many years ago, we backed way back on giving to the SBC.
[00:30:44]  So, we were only giving to mission causes anyway.
[00:30:47]  We had completely dropped all cooperative CP gifts and all of that was just completely gone.
[00:30:55]  So, to cooperate as a church was now not a possibility for us any longer.
[00:31:02]  Gotcha.
[00:31:03]  So, with that said, it was at that point where we said we really need to separate and we don't need to be a part of this anymore.
[00:31:11]  We need to go on and do gospel ministry elsewhere.
[00:31:15]  And at some point, you know, I'll stop talking about the SBC, except I'll point back and make comments occasionally, but it's not my.
[00:31:22]  Job.
[00:31:23]  I don't feel like I have to for the rest of my life throw rocks at the SBC.
[00:31:28]  I will pray for these brothers.
[00:31:30]  I will pray for these churches.
[00:31:32]  I will pray for leaders to repent, but I'm not going to continue to just get up every day and think I've got to go on some polemics search to try to figure out a way to expose the SBC.
[00:31:44]  I think the SBC has exposed itself, unfortunately.
[00:31:50]  Practical question for a moment What is the minimum requirement?
[00:31:53]  So let's say.
[00:31:54]  You know, because I really think that that principle of, you know, well, I want to seek reformation, right?
[00:32:01]  I want to reform that.
[00:32:02]  I mean, this is till as old as time, whether it's, you know, I'm going to stay in England, you know, with William Laud and, you know, his high church and persecution of, you know, Puritan pastors, or I'm going to go to the New World, you know, or for me, you know, at the end of 2020, me and my family, we left California.
[00:32:18]  I was pastoring a church there, had been there for several years.
[00:32:22]  My wife's family and my family were both in Texas.
[00:32:24]  And so we, you know, we were just, after 2020, we were done.
[00:32:27]  And so we, Wanted to leave.
[00:32:30]  Although, you know, there were multiple families that came with us.
[00:32:33]  We planted a new church here, and by God's grace, it's growing.
[00:32:36]  But obviously, multiple families stayed behind.
[00:32:39]  And so, that question of, you know, everybody who stayed behind, none of them stayed behind because they were like, we love Gavin Newsom, and, you know, we think that he's a brilliant and wonderful, you know, politician.
[00:32:50]  It was always, we're staying behind to fight.
[00:32:52]  And that was the, that's what it always, so whether it's a denomination or whether it's, you know, where you live, you know, this, the whole category of fleeing.
[00:33:02]  Right, like Jesus gives a provision for fleeing, like not just a provision, but in some cases, depending you know how you apply this, a command.
[00:33:11]  Right, if a town does not receive you, then shake the dust off your feet.
[00:33:14]  Like, and so there is a Christian category for fleeing, and that doesn't make you a quitter, it doesn't make you a coward.
[00:33:19]  Um, and there also is a biblical category for fighting.
[00:33:24]  Um, and so there's fleeing and fighting, and it's tough to know what you should do, and that's and I think that's why you know that the safest thing in most of these cases.

=== Planting Churches Without Elite Control (08:53) ===

[00:33:33]  Put it under the larger banner of a matter of conscience.
[00:33:36]  But with California, I remember thinking, like, you know, a lot of Christians are like, well, we're staying to fight.
[00:33:40]  And my question is, you know, in real terms, what percentage of your income do you give to the church and what percentage goes to state taxes?
[00:33:49]  You know, what percentage of, you know, and you just look at it all these things.
[00:33:52]  And that's not to say no Christian should live in California, that there's not any kind of exception clause.
[00:33:56]  I mean, the military, for goodness sake, I think it's right.
[00:33:59]  I'm not a pacifist, so I think a man can serve in the military.
[00:34:01]  If you serve in the military, especially the Navy, you're going to be in California.
[00:34:04]  So, California needs churches.
[00:34:06]  I think it's, it's, there are exception clauses, but I think sometimes we kid ourselves.
[00:34:10]  We think we're doing more fighting than we're basically, we, we, we pump up our numbers, our stats in the fighting category.
[00:34:19]  And I think we're not willing to take a hard look at our stats in the funding category.
[00:34:24]  I think this principle applies to multiple things, but I think a lot of us, whether Amazon, man, I feel like, I'm like, I think a package from Amazon is on my doorstep every single day.
[00:34:34]  And I'm like, I'm like, Maybe I should try a little bit harder.
[00:34:38]  You know, it's so easy.
[00:34:39]  It's just so darn easy to, you know, to use Amazon.
[00:34:42]  But it's like, but I know they're giving money to BLM.
[00:34:45]  They're doing this.
[00:34:45]  Like, should I be using giving this much of my money to Amazon?
[00:34:49]  So, whether it's a denomination or corporations that we patron, or whether it's what state we live in, or all these different things, I think asking some serious questions about am I really fighting?
[00:35:01]  How am I fighting?
[00:35:02]  Can I stand before God and give an answer, right?
[00:35:05]  Give an account for the ways that I'm fighting against wickedness in this state, in this organization, in this denomination, whatever it might be.
[00:35:13]  And then also looking at, and in In my choice to stay and fight, how hard am I really fighting?
[00:35:19]  And then also having, and it hurts, but having that honest look at, but by staying to fight, how much am I not wanting to, but how much am I forced to fund simply by my decision to stay and fight?
[00:35:34]  And I think that number, however, whatever metrics are used to determine the funding amount, I think sometimes it can be surprising and painful to realize, oh man, I thought I was fighting.
[00:35:47]  I'm having serious conversations.
[00:35:49]  I'm taking a stand on certain issues.
[00:35:53]  But really, my fighting is actually, if I'm really honest, it's doing this much.
[00:35:57]  But my funding is just to this Leviathan, this Bohemian, just thousands of dollars, just going and going and going and going.
[00:36:07]  And so even though I'm fighting, if I could give truth serum to the people at the top, hey, would you want me to leave or stay?
[00:36:14]  They're like, oh, you can stay and fight.
[00:36:16]  That's cute.
[00:36:17]  Yeah, we see you on Facebook and the comments that you make and stuff.
[00:36:20]  But we also.
[00:36:21]  We appreciate the thousands of dollars that your church gave last year.
[00:36:25]  Exactly.
[00:36:26]  Yeah.
[00:36:26]  So it's.
[00:36:27]  Exactly.
[00:36:28]  Yeah.
[00:36:29]  And when I think of that, I also have to ask myself this honest question as it pertains to stewardship stewardship of time.
[00:36:36]  Like, you know, it's one thing to fight, you know, the fight of faith, right?
[00:36:40]  And to go out into this dark world and to preach the gospel and to push back against the darkness of this culture, the depravity that, you know, that surrounds us, if you will.
[00:36:52]  But it's another thing to get up every day and to have to fight other Christians, other churches.
[00:37:00]  And that's certainly not something that I think is a good use of our time.
[00:37:04]  So, you know, finding people to network with under this big, massive tent, it's like going to a really large family reunion and trying to figure out what table you're going to be welcome to sit at for lunch.
[00:37:20]  And coming to a point where you don't really see That there's a good option anymore.
[00:37:26]  And so it's just, it becomes far more difficult.
[00:37:29]  So when I'm thinking of fighting the fight of faith and I'm thinking of planting churches and doing the work of ministry, I want to figure out ways to spend my time.
[00:37:40]  And I have limited time every day.
[00:37:44]  We're so limited.
[00:37:45]  And so, how am I going to spend those hours?
[00:37:48]  Will I spend those hours trying to figure out ways to battle some polemics issue within the SBC?
[00:37:56]  Or can I work to plant a church in a specific state where there's far more darkness than there is light through a network like G3, for instance?
[00:38:08]  Right.
[00:38:09]  Yeah.
[00:38:09]  No, that's really good.
[00:38:10]  And I think that's kind of the catch 22 is if you do it yourself, right?
[00:38:15]  A local church, I mean, and at the end of the day, the SBC doesn't plant churches.
[00:38:19]  Churches plant churches.
[00:38:20]  Absolutely.
[00:38:21]  So the SBC can help to train and they can help to fund and those kind of things.
[00:38:24]  But churches plant churches.
[00:38:26]  And if you're pastoring a small church with a limited amount of people, a limited amount of funds, Then the difficulty in doing it alone, doing it yourself, is the limit on resources.
[00:38:36]  The benefit, that's the con, the pro is you have pretty much 100% influence and say in who that church planter is going to be, who those elders are going to be, what kind of church, what kind of theology, what you're actually planting.
[00:38:52]  So I think that's kind of the decision, is all right, smaller.
[00:38:57]  It's like, we don't have, as Rod Martin always says, the widow's mites, you got all these widow's mites.
[00:39:03]  And yeah, that is a massive benefit.
[00:39:04]  And I really like Rod Martin.
[00:39:05]  We've had him on the show too.
[00:39:07]  I love talking just about.
[00:39:09]  Like, when are we going to Mars, Rodney?
[00:39:12]  I like that kind of stuff.
[00:39:15]  But, you know, he always talks about the widow's mites and you pull it all together and there's so much and you can just do so much.
[00:39:20]  And that's true.
[00:39:21]  But the bigger something gets, it's like the more resources it has.
[00:39:24]  But there's also the less influence any one person has over it.
[00:39:30]  And it's just, and it's hard.
[00:39:31]  It's just, it's difficult to keep a big old behemoth thing faithful and focused, you know.
[00:39:37]  And, you know, that idea of cooperation is a really, Has been historically a really strong point of the SBC because you can pull all of this money together.
[00:39:46]  But like you said, you know, when you have a small group of elites at the top rung of the ladder that are making all the decisions on where they're planting churches, how they're planting churches, yes, we vote on a few things, but at the end of the day, you just keep shoveling the money in the front door and they're going to keep doing their thing.
[00:40:04]  Like with, you know, as far as a small independent church, yeah, you're right.
[00:40:09]  I mean, we actually need to partner with other local churches.
[00:40:13]  I think that that's a healthy thing.
[00:40:14]  And that's why we, Are doing what we're doing with the G3 Church Network.
[00:40:19]  And then, as we publish a project, like if we publish a project from our local church, churches plant churches.
[00:40:25]  So, if we decide, okay, we're going to enter into this church planting project and we publish that within the G3 Church Network, it doesn't mean that every single church within the network has to actually partner with us for that project.
[00:40:41]  But five or six may that are close by that can maybe have some.
[00:40:47]  Some influence in terms of proximity could send elders from their church to help engage in the oversight of the initial launch and partner with us on, you know, rotation of preaching responsibilities and funding of rental of a facility and all sorts of things, right?
[00:41:06]  So we're not going to have to do this all alone because we might have, you know, out of a network of 100 or 200 churches, right now we're about 100 churches, we might have five or six churches that say, yeah, count me in on this and we're going to do this.
[00:41:20]  So, to cooperate with another church is the extremely healthy benefit.
[00:41:25]  But the way that the SBC has gone with this massive machine, it's almost as if you don't really even know what's going on.
[00:41:34]  You're just giving them money and trusting that they're doing it properly.
[00:41:38]  Right.
[00:41:38]  That's the difficulty.
[00:41:39]  Yeah, the lack of accountability.
[00:41:41]  And that's what, again, the similarity is uncanny, but that's how people feel with the nation.
[00:41:47]  It's like, who's Dr. Fauci accountable to?
[00:41:51]  $420,000 a year salary, the unelected most powerful official in the world.
[00:41:56]  And so accountability is incredibly important.
[00:41:59]  So that gets into the whole G3 network thing.
[00:42:02]  So let me just go ahead and ask you about that.
[00:42:05]  So G3, it appears to be creating its own network of like minded churches.
[00:42:10]  This is an honorable, much needed endeavor.
[00:42:12]  My question is this Does G3 have, well, before I get to the specific thing about, we'll get there.
[00:42:19]  But first, what would be some distinctives, theological distinctives?
[00:42:22]  G3 network, if you're going to be in this network, you're going to be a church in this network, you are blank.

=== Confessionalism and G3 Network Growth (03:53) ===

[00:42:27]  What are you like?
[00:42:29]  Yeah, so number one, we're Baptist.
[00:42:31]  Number two, we hold to, with some degree of and measure of even qualifications, we hold to the 1689 Baptist Confession.
[00:42:42]  So, with that said, what we would allow is say, a church is led by a group of pastors, and the pastors say, we can actually link arms and actually affirm the 1689, but our whole church can't yet.
[00:43:01]  In fact, we don't have the 1689 as our official confession within our own local church, then we would still allow that church to be a part of this network because we believe that the pastors within this network and the churches can associate together so long as the leadership is aligned properly.
[00:43:22]  Furthermore, we think that a good confession like the 1689, for instance, provides clear and valid transparency as to who we are.
[00:43:32]  Where we stand, it's like a flag or a pole, if you will, a flagpole in the ground.
[00:43:37]  It's waving a flag that says, This is who we are.
[00:43:41]  And then we also recognize that there are some people, some churches, some pastors that would say, Well, we're not exactly on board with, say, the article on the Sabbath or that the Pope is the Antichrist.
[00:43:56]  We want to sort of adjust and qualify on things.
[00:43:59]  And so we allow for people and churches to qualify on some things, but we just need to make sure that we're not too far apart from one another.
[00:44:07]  That we would not be able to be like minded and be in good fellowship and partner together in projects.
[00:44:13]  So, we do believe that, you know, holding to a confessional statement like the 1689 is extremely important.
[00:44:19]  Yeah.
[00:44:20]  That's good.
[00:44:20]  So, Baptist and confessionally Baptist, which is Reformed Baptist.
[00:44:26]  Correct.
[00:44:26]  I have to tell people all the time there's Calvinistic Baptist, who I appreciate, and then there are Reformed Baptists.
[00:44:32]  And so, I, you know, for years and years, you know, my listeners know this, but, For years and years, you know, I did theology like most guys do when they get into ministry.
[00:44:41]  I did it a la carte.
[00:44:43]  And it's just, it's exhausting, you know.
[00:44:46]  And I felt like I was getting near the end of the buffet line, you know, like at a Luby's or something.
[00:44:50]  I had my tray, you know, two or three plates, and I had all these different things.
[00:44:53]  And then I'm looking over and I'm like, there's this little chalkboard, you know, sandwich board sign that says the chef special.
[00:44:59]  And I realized I've already got like 97% of the things on my tray are part of the chef special.
[00:45:05]  So either this 3%, where I'm differing with the chef's opinion, either I'm just, Nailing it on the buffet line, and I just know exactly what's right, and the chef is mistaken.
[00:45:15]  Or maybe somebody else already did all this, all this work, you know, and maybe theology, maybe there actually is a systematic and there is a common thread, you know, through the Bible, and there is a way of understanding things cohesively, and it's not meant to be done a la carte.
[00:45:31]  Maybe I could have saved myself a lot of time and a lot of effort by just taking somebody else's word for it, not anybody else's, but somebody who's tested and tried and true.
[00:45:40]  And so for me, confessionalism wasn't binding, it was free.
[00:45:44]  It freed me up to be able to have a sense of safety, a security, and to not be embarrassed.
[00:45:53]  I mean, there were certain moments where it's like, I believe this over here, I believe this over here.
[00:45:58]  And then, you know, eventually in some kind of pastoral situation, it gets pointed out to me by some member of my church that these two things actually are contradicting.
[00:46:06]  And I'm like, oh, no, they are.
[00:46:08]  You're right.
[00:46:09]  You know, and it's like this embarrassing moment where, and so, yeah, confessionalism, the 1689 was incredibly helpful for me personally and for our church.
[00:46:19]  So, yeah, absolutely.

=== Two Kingdom Theology Explained (14:50) ===

[00:46:21]  So, with that, the 1689 is, you know, it's not a three page pamphlet.
[00:46:26]  You know, it's about 100 pages in book form, you know, 32 chapters, I believe, right?
[00:46:31]  Is that correct?
[00:46:32]  Yeah.
[00:46:32]  I think it's 32 chapters.
[00:46:34]  It covers the Sabbath, covers, you know, the doctrine of the word, the doctrine of the Trinity, but more than just your basic general statement of faith, like the Baptist faith and message.
[00:46:43]  It's much more in depth than just that.
[00:46:46]  But it doesn't cover everything.
[00:46:47]  1689 doesn't say anything about head coverings.
[00:46:50]  That 1689 doesn't say, Um, anything about well, about the kind of the second half of my question here?
[00:46:56]  Um, two kingdom theology is kind of what I want to get into.
[00:47:00]  The 1699 addresses a little bit like our you know, our influence in the world on the pagan culture and those kinds of things, but there's some wiggle room there.
[00:47:08]  And so, my question is, does G3 have an official position on two kingdom theology?
[00:47:14]  Uh, John MacArthur, to throw him out there, John MacArthur, love him, I know you love him.
[00:47:18]  Uh, he famously and rightly said that Christ, not Caesar, is head of the church, yes and amen.
[00:47:24]  However, I personally would believe and hold that Christians should go a little further by insisting that Christ, not Caesar, is also head of the state.
[00:47:32]  I would look at Romans 13.
[00:47:33]  I would say that the state is God's deacon, the civil magistrate.
[00:47:37]  He works for God, that Christ is over even the state.
[00:47:40]  Now, that doesn't mean Christ is head of the state in the same way he's head of the church.
[00:47:43]  He's uniquely head of the church in that he died for her and he nourishes her, mediates the blessings of the new covenant by his blood for her.
[00:47:52]  But I do believe that in the authoritative sense, in a governing sense, Christ is head of all things, thinking of Colossians, thinking of I believe it's Ephesians 1 22 that God has set him up as the head of all things to the benefit of the church.
[00:48:05]  So the church uniquely benefits by Christ's headship over all things.
[00:48:09]  But he's not only head of the church, uniquely head of the church to benefit the church, but head of all things.
[00:48:14]  So head of the church, yes and amen, but also head of the state.
[00:48:18]  So I heartily would affirm a separation of church and state, but I believe it's high time for Christians to reject the unbiblical notion of a separation of God and state.
[00:48:27]  I think there's a difference between separation of church and state, good separation of God and state.
[00:48:33]  No bueno would be my position.
[00:48:35]  So I think that neutrality is a myth.
[00:48:38]  Secularism, I think, is on its last leg.
[00:48:40]  I think it's time to just go ahead and push that idol over and be done with it and stop pretending.
[00:48:46]  I think it's either Demos is God, the people are God, or God is God.
[00:48:52]  It's either man's morality or it's God's morality, God's law.
[00:48:56]  And I know that it can be controversial, but I like the way that guys like Doug Wilson, he said, general equity.
[00:49:04]  Theonomy, right?
[00:49:05]  So, you know, this idea of, and that is in the 1689 confession, that, you know, as our use of three uses of the law of God, but then also when it comes to civil law, that the moral law is eternal, eternally binding, including the Sabbath.
[00:49:21]  And so, chapter 22 talks about the Sabbath, but then with the civil law of God, that's, I mean, that's what the Apostle Paul uses for me and you to get paid by being pastors.
[00:49:30]  You know, the ox, you know, don't muzzle him.
[00:49:32]  And oh, by the way, here's how you can apply that to, To pastors, and how the one who labors in the gospel is worthy of the wages.
[00:49:41]  And so, when I look at the law of God and I think, man, it has civil application, and it's not a one to one ratio.
[00:49:48]  It's not like America replaced Israel.
[00:49:50]  We believe that the church, and replaced isn't always the best word to use, but we believe that Israel blossomed into the church, and all of ethnic Israel has been invited to join the church.
[00:50:00]  And many have chosen to harden their heart and reject, but they've been invited to join the church.
[00:50:04]  But it was all building up to the church.
[00:50:06]  America is not the replacement for Israel.
[00:50:07]  The church is.
[00:50:09]  And so it's not a one to one ratio of looking at the civil law with Israel and then saying America should do that.
[00:50:14]  But what I would say is that the civil law, it's a two step process instead of one.
[00:50:18]  You track it back to the moral law of God, the Ten Commandments, and find the general equity, God's blueprint, and then you take that and apply it in a culture, place, and time.
[00:50:28]  And I believe that all nations should do that.
[00:50:30]  And the church has a role, a prophetic role, to call the civil magistrate to do that.
[00:50:36]  And I don't know what theologically you would refer to that, if that's Kyperion, but I think that's where I'm at.
[00:50:43]  That's where a lot of our listeners are at.
[00:50:45]  And I'm curious, what is your position?
[00:50:48]  How much.
[00:50:49]  Involvement should the church have in politics?
[00:50:51]  I, you know, John MacArthur's been under fire recently.
[00:50:54]  Ironically, people saying that he's theocratic and theonomic.
[00:50:57]  And I'm like watching those, you know, and I'm like laughing because it's like 52 years of this guy.
[00:51:02]  Like, he's, I think, the lead that I would like him to be more of that.
[00:51:05]  I'm like, I wish that was true of John MacArthur, but it's certainly not.
[00:51:08]  So I'm curious, where is Dr. Josh Bice at?
[00:51:11]  And with the G3 network, would that be a distinctive position on that issue?
[00:51:17]  Or would that be one of the issues where it's like that's beyond the 1689?
[00:51:21]  We want to, we want to.
[00:51:22]  Draw the line here and leave room with that.
[00:51:26]  What do you think?
[00:51:27]  Yeah, it's a great question.
[00:51:30]  Well, as far as the network is concerned, we certainly are not going to draw a line in the sand on two kingdom theology.
[00:51:38]  We're not going to draw a line in the sand as far as a hard line in the sand on eschatology.
[00:51:44]  We would take every church on those issues on a church by church basis.
[00:51:49]  And we want to, if we have someone that's just swinging swords and they're just post mill all day long, They're probably not going to fit in too well within the G3 church network.
[00:52:03]  However, we just want to be careful not to make that a line of division because I don't see that, you know, when it comes to a network and, you know, voluntary engagement and involvement in certain projects and things of that nature, it's not going to be something that we want to try to separate over.
[00:52:23]  We want to try to figure out a way to have a healthy church network that can do these things.
[00:52:28]  And do those things well.
[00:52:30]  As it pertains to sort of a two kingdom theology, I think a lot of people probably within the G3 Church Network would probably lean more that direction than they would to more of a, you know, a mono sort of approach on the structure.
[00:52:49]  And I think that the reason is because I think that you can avoid two ditches.
[00:52:55]  And I think there can be a little bit of an abbreviated aspect of even two kingdom theology and a two kingdom theology approach.
[00:53:03]  For instance, if I'm holding more to, and I do tend to hold to more of a two kingdom approach, that's not to say that I don't or that I reject that Christ is the head of the state, too, okay?
[00:53:16]  Because I recognize that.
[00:53:17]  I also recognize the fact that, as Luther said, that the devil is God's devil.
[00:53:23]  And so we have to sort of think about the way that it's structured.
[00:53:28]  So you think about the sphere of the family and the sphere of the church and the sphere of society.
[00:53:35]  And then you think about the kingdom aspect, naturally born into the civil kingdom, but I'm born again into God's kingdom.
[00:53:45]  Now, is Christ ruling and reigning right now, presently from the throne?
[00:53:49]  And I believe he said that emphatically himself.
[00:53:52]  And I think that he is.
[00:53:54]  So that's to say that he is absolutely head of the church and he is absolutely head of the state at the same time.
[00:54:03]  But I think we can run into problems when we conflate the two.
[00:54:07]  So, the ditch on one side would be an over realized eschatology.
[00:54:11]  I want to avoid that ditch.
[00:54:14]  But then I also want to avoid the ditch of some sort of escapism approach where, you know, people would say, well, you know, the Christian has no right to, you know, to speak into the political sphere or to, you know, to hold to one specific political party or candidate and that type of thing.
[00:54:34]  And I would just reject that.
[00:54:35]  I think that you can still hold to a two kingdom approach or even a modified two kingdom approach and still be very vocal and engaged politically.
[00:54:46]  But just recognizing ultimately that Christ is the head of the church and Caesar is not.
[00:54:53]  And then you think about the pulpit, you think about the fact that we need to be looking at the pulpit as this launching pad of truth.
[00:55:04]  And while the state has been given by Christ the sword, we should never allow for Caesar to have our pulpits.
[00:55:14]  But unfortunately, we see that happening, and we see that happening even.
[00:55:19]  In conservative groups that want to sort of have this political rally and all of this kind of stuff, we want to avoid that.
[00:55:27]  So, within our own local church here, we're going to try to, when we think about the separation of church and state, that's a loaded statement that's been abused for so long.
[00:55:37]  And I think the liberals have successfully silenced many a Christian and many a church throughout history by that statement.
[00:55:46]  And so, I would simply say it like this I think that if you want to talk about separation of church and state, I would say, That type of ideology is to keep the state out of the church, but not to keep the church out of the state.
[00:56:01]  And so that's the way that I would articulate it.
[00:56:04]  So, in terms of our approach, we're not going to kick people out because they don't hold to a specific two kingdom approach, but we do want to make sure that we're close enough in proximity that we can associate together and do missions and church planting together and have good fellowship.
[00:56:24]  But I would also urge, I would heavily urge.
[00:56:28]  My brothers to think earnestly about what it means to take a stand, to speak up, to speak into the political sphere.
[00:56:38]  I mean, you look at John the Baptist, for instance.
[00:56:40]  John the Baptist was saying, That's wonderful.
[00:56:42]  We've got all these people that are coming out here.
[00:56:45]  They want to be baptized.
[00:56:46]  That's great.
[00:56:46]  But now hang on a second.
[00:56:47]  When you go back, make sure you tell Herod that he should not have his brother's wife.
[00:56:53]  So he's speaking into the political sphere.
[00:56:56]  That's right.
[00:56:57]  And I think that we have to recognize that.
[00:56:59]  Amen.
[00:57:00]  Yeah, amen.
[00:57:02]  Christ, because Christ is king.
[00:57:05]  Christ is king.
[00:57:07]  He wasn't just, you know, he wasn't just, he was born a baby, but he grew up.
[00:57:12]  You know, some Christians still think he's this baby Jesus, you know, but he's a full grown man.
[00:57:17]  He's the God man and he's king and he was born a king.
[00:57:20]  Herod, I feel like Herod in some ways understood and kind of got the birth of Jesus better than some Christians in the sense that he was threatened.
[00:57:33]  Um, you know, he was like, I need to do something about this.
[00:57:36]  Um, and we're so quick to say, Well, Jesus, you know, his kingdom, you know, isn't of this world, you know, or he didn't come to start a political uh revolution.
[00:57:44]  But but the politicians of his day were afraid, you know, uh, they felt threatened.
[00:57:49]  So we're certain that Jesus had no political ambition, but but they weren't certain, they they were they felt threatened, they were worried, What's gonna happen?
[00:57:58]  Um, with this king, um, not just savior, not just meek and mild, but this king.
[00:58:04]  But what you said about separation of church and state, you know, I, I. Completely agree.
[00:58:08]  I understand that clause to be, you know, that we shouldn't have a church run state and we shouldn't have a state run church.
[00:58:13]  But you're right that I think we're kidding ourselves if we act like it's this equal two way street.
[00:58:19]  The church rarely, and part of that's an indictment of the church, but the church rarely is forcing the hand of the state.
[00:58:27]  But the state is all too happy to come in and tell the church what to do.
[00:58:31]  And I think part of the reason why the separation of church and state needs to be an extra guard and extra vigilant in keeping the state out of the church versus worrying about the church.
[00:58:41]  Getting into the state is because of the nature of the way God set up these two sovereign spheres.
[00:58:46]  To the church, like you said, so to the church has been given word and sacrament.
[00:58:49]  To the church has been given a sword, to be fair, but it's a spiritual sword.
[00:58:54]  It's sharper than any double edged sword, but it's a spiritual sword.
[00:58:57]  It's a persuasion.
[00:59:00]  To the state has been given coercion.
[00:59:02]  And there's a difference.
[00:59:03]  So we plead with men to repent of their sin and to put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
[00:59:08]  We preach.
[00:59:09]  That's what the church, you know, so it's pulpit and sword, right?
[00:59:12]  And so, like the pulpit, we're preachers.
[00:59:15]  It's persuasion.
[00:59:17]  And there is a command in that sense, but it's a command that's not coerced.
[00:59:22]  People's response to that command has to be voluntary, it has to be something that they choose to do.
[00:59:29]  God has to change their hearts and make them willing to come.
[00:59:33]  Whereas the state, to be fair to the state, God gave them the sword.
[00:59:38]  And so their ministry is a coercive ministry.
[00:59:41]  It's supposed to be.
[00:59:42]  But because that's the nature of the ministry and the way that the purpose that God instituted the state, because it is by nature.
[00:59:49]  Coercive, it needs to be involved, in my opinion, in as few things as possible.
[00:59:55]  It needs to narrow its ministry, its purpose, its involvement to what God's word says the purpose of the state is actually for.
[01:00:06]  Because people have said it like this anything the state does, it does at gunpoint.
[01:00:11]  And it can't help itself.
[01:00:13]  Again, not trying to pick on the state, but it can't help itself.
[01:00:16]  It's like, well, that's not true.
[01:00:20]  Yeah, okay, but just follow the train.
[01:00:22]  Eventually, you'll get to a gun, right?
[01:00:24]  If I don't pay my taxes, eventually, someone's going to show up at my door.
[01:00:27]  If I resist arrest, then eventually, you know, I'm going to find a gun pointed at me.
[01:00:32]  You know, so one way, everything the state says, it says at the threat of gunpoint, whereas the church doesn't.
[01:00:38]  And so when you have an institution that by design is coercive and everything it does is with the sword because God gave it a sword, it's, you know, then that ministry has to be really careful.
[01:00:53]  What it's involved, that it's sticking to the script.
[01:00:56]  And the church, to be fair, has to be careful too.
[01:00:58]  That ministers can, not with coercion, but still even through persuasion, can wrongfully bind, overly bind the consciences of men.
[01:01:06]  Spiritual abuse is a legitimate category, but the state seems to be doing that far more.

=== State Overreach in Local Churches (02:05) ===

[01:01:11]  And so I'm with you.
[01:01:13]  The separation of church and state, it's regularly being said, well, Christians shouldn't be involved in politics.
[01:01:18]  Or I feel like if people were, you know, if John the Baptist was here today and says, you shall not have her, I feel like Christians, Sadly, would be the first ones to say, Well, Herod, that law that you're referring to is a Christian law that doesn't apply to Herod.
[01:01:34]  And you and I would be like, Uh uh.
[01:01:35]  No, sir.
[01:01:36]  No, that's the law of God.
[01:01:37]  It's binding on every man, every woman, every child, all places, all times.
[01:01:42]  That is the moral law of God.
[01:01:43]  And so, and that's the 1689.
[01:01:47]  That's not a parenthetical, you know, peripheral kind of thing.
[01:01:51]  That's a basic confessional belief.
[01:01:54]  Any final thoughts, Dr. Bice, before I let you go?
[01:01:57]  No, I mean, I've enjoyed the conversation.
[01:02:00]  I think you're on point.
[01:02:02]  I think that we're seeing through COVID 19, through all of the mandates, through the overreach of the government, we're seeing that people who were resistant to the idea of any Christian involvement in politics have actually been forced,
[01:02:20]  their hand has been forced into this whole discussion because it's not that they went looking for ways to engage themselves in politics, but the church actually came walking into the front door of their local church.
[01:02:33]  The state came into their local church.
[01:02:36]  Yeah, the state came into their local church.
[01:02:39]  And so, what happens at that point is that they've been forced to rethink these positions.
[01:02:47]  And so, you know, when Caesar walks into the front door of your local church and says, This is what you have to do, well, now, you know, you don't have time to sit down and parse out all of the theological aspects.
[01:02:58]  You need to be thinking about this.
[01:02:59]  So, I think my final words would be I just want to urge my brothers and sisters to be thinking about what's happening in Canada.
[01:03:07]  What's happening as it pertains to the Equality Act that's going to be signed into law probably in the upcoming months?

=== Patience Leads to Hope (02:10) ===

[01:03:17]  And we would pray that that's not the case.
[01:03:20]  But we're just going to see more and more oppression and pressure from the government upon the church.
[01:03:28]  We're all going to experience it, not only pastors, but all of us in the church will at some level experience this.
[01:03:34]  And we need to be able to speak up to give a defense of our faith.
[01:03:40]  We need to be able to speak to the civil sphere.
[01:03:44]  We need to be able to speak to the political sphere and say, no, we're not going to obey this because our obligation is to obey God rather than man.
[01:03:55]  So we're going to have to be ready to stand when we're called upon.
[01:03:59]  And I think right now we're just seeing just sort of the tip of the iceberg, if you will, for what lies ahead.
[01:04:05]  As far as my eschatology is concerned, I don't see things getting better before they get.
[01:04:11]  You know, really bad before they get suddenly really good.
[01:04:15]  So I think that when we think about where we are presently, we need to be prepared to stand and, you know, the trials of the faith, the Lord being ruler over both of these fears that we've been discussing, he will allow us to experience these trials.
[01:04:34]  But the trying of our faith will, you know, produce this patience.
[01:04:40]  And this patience ultimately leads us to hope.
[01:04:42]  And so, We need to be able to persevere, to be steadfast, immovable in the faith for the glory of God.
[01:04:48]  So I want to urge my brothers and sisters in Christ to be thinking critically about what we've been talking about for the last few minutes.
[01:04:55]  Amen.
[01:04:56]  Well, thank you, Josh, for coming on the show.
[01:04:57]  I really appreciate it.
[01:04:59]  My privilege.
[01:04:59]  God bless you.
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