NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Health Mandates, Tucker Carlson, & Nicki Minaj
Aired: 2021-09-29
Duration: 01:34:06


=== Creating a Safe Space for Faith (02:42) ===

[00:00:00]  Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webben with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:06]  In this episode, I was privileged to have as a special guest Constance Troutman from Truth and Fire Podcast on the Bar Network.
[00:00:13]  We talked about fake vaccine passports, we talked about Tucker Carlson, we talked about Nicki Minaj, and we talked about how to keep your courage as a Christian in this crazy world.
[00:00:26]  Hope you enjoy.
[00:00:27]  Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
[00:00:31]  This is Theology Applied.
[00:00:39]  All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:42]  And as I've already mentioned, I'm privileged to have as a special guest Constance Troutman with Truth and Fire.
[00:00:49]  She's on the Bar podcast with Dwayne Atkinson.
[00:00:54]  Is that correct?
[00:00:55]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:00:56]  Dwayne Atkinson.
[00:00:57]  And then you guys are probably familiar with the Just Thinking podcast, Daryl Harrison and Virgil Walker.
[00:01:02]  We've had them on the show before.
[00:01:03]  So without further ado, Constance, thanks for joining us.
[00:01:06]  And could you go ahead and just tell our listeners a little bit about you and your ministry?
[00:01:10]  Of course.
[00:01:11]  Thank you so much for having me, first of all.
[00:01:13]  Yes, I am Constance Troutman.
[00:01:15]  I'm a blogger and podcast host over at truthandfire.com.
[00:01:20]  I'm originally from Atlanta, Georgia, now reside in Washington, D.C.
[00:01:23]  And I've been doing Truth and Fire for, excuse me, at least the last five, no, six years, six years actually.
[00:01:30]  I started the blog in 2016, just wanting to have a space to articulate my faith and just to kind of encourage new believers in living for Christ in a society that basically tells us that it's not cool or, you know, if they just, you know, want to.
[00:01:45]  Misunderstand us, or they want to quote unquote hate on us because of our faith.
[00:01:52]  It's definitely evolved since then, especially since I've grown in my own faith.
[00:01:56]  But yeah, so just more so starting it as a safe space to articulate and share my faith.
[00:02:01]  So yeah, a safe space.
[00:02:04]  No trigger warnings, no safe spaces.
[00:02:06]  No, I hear you.
[00:02:08]  That's great.
[00:02:08]  Why?
[00:02:09]  Safe space now, as I began to grow in my understanding of scripture, it was no longer a safe space.
[00:02:15]  Trust me.
[00:02:16]  Right.
[00:02:17]  Amen.
[00:02:17]  Yeah, so I first came, I told you right before we started recording, my wife actually turned me on to your podcast and she said, Hey, you should have Constance.
[00:02:25]  And she's a part of the bar.
[00:02:27]  And so immediately there was credibility because I know the Just Thinking guys.
[00:02:31]  And so I was like, All right, she's probably good.
[00:02:32]  And so I went ahead and listened.
[00:02:34]  I was like, All right, which I want to listen to at least one of her podcasts.
[00:02:37]  And the one that I selected that I thought was fantastic was it was a repeat.
[00:02:41]  I think you reposted it.

=== Reasoning Through Fear and Distrust (16:39) ===

[00:02:43]  You were saying, Hey, this was from last year.
[00:02:45]  And anytime you can, you know, because.
[00:02:48]  Well, I mean, for one, right?
[00:02:50]  And so in natural revelation, God is, you know, special revelation doesn't change.
[00:02:53]  The Bible doesn't change.
[00:02:54]  The Word of God is eternal.
[00:02:55]  In natural revelation, providentially, even natural revelation doesn't change.
[00:02:59]  The sun rises, it's been doing it for a very long time.
[00:03:01]  And so we see the glory of God by what He has made.
[00:03:04]  And the message of God doesn't change in the Scripture, certainly, but not even through natural revelation.
[00:03:09]  However, providentially, there are things that come about that change our opinions, right?
[00:03:13]  We come into more data, we come into more facts, there are new events and circumstances.
[00:03:18]  And so we changed in that regard.
[00:03:20]  And then we're also changing because we're finite and fallen.
[00:03:23]  And so we're coming, you know, reformed and always reforming, simper reformanda.
[00:03:27]  And so we're growing, we're being sanctified.
[00:03:30]  So that caveat being what it is, I still think there's a lot to be said when somebody's able, especially with a podcast, to look back a year prior and say, yeah, I still believe all those things.
[00:03:42]  And when it can stand the test of time, and especially, you know, used to, it was like, hey, you know, maybe my stuff will hold from 10 years ago.
[00:03:50]  But right now, it seems like the current events of our day are changing so quickly that it just feels like it's changing by the week.
[00:03:57]  And so, if you have something from a year ago, especially related to COVID, which is what you did, and it still rings true, color me impressed.
[00:04:04]  So, anyway, so I'm very honored to have you on the show.
[00:04:08]  And so, without wasting any more time, let's just hop right into it.
[00:04:11]  So, here's the first question that I got for you Is it necessary for Christians to get the vaccine in order to love their neighbor?
[00:04:18]  Everybody's saying it's loving your neighbor, loving your neighbor, Constance.
[00:04:21]  What do you think about that?
[00:04:23]  I do not agree with that.
[00:04:24]  I do not believe it's necessary for one to get the vaccine to love their neighbor.
[00:04:30]  Without, I guess, judging someone's motives for getting vaccinated, I can respect someone sincerely being convicted that, you know, based on what they were told from Dr. Fauci, the CDC, I can respect someone with limited knowledge or maybe about almost a year ago, it was September now.
[00:04:50]  So maybe we'll say the top of the year.
[00:04:54]  I can understand someone making that decision to get vaccinated believing that they were sincerely going to be protecting someone else.
[00:05:02]  But that logic that is necessary to get vaccinated to love their neighbor doesn't really make a lot of sense to me because is it necessary for me to wear a coat to love my neighbor?
[00:05:15]  I mean, if someone wants to warp the logic, the line of reason, then I guess they could say, well, yeah, well, you know, if I put on a coat, then I won't get cold and catch a cold and I won't then get sick and then I won't spread the germs to my neighbor.
[00:05:28]  I mean, sure, we can do that.
[00:05:30]  We can do some mind bending there.
[00:05:31]  But the reality, though, is that these vaccines are leaky, they do not protect.
[00:05:37]  Anyone, not even the individuals who received the vaccine.
[00:05:42]  So I saw that argument come out very early on.
[00:05:45]  I wasn't into it, I wasn't buying it because it still felt like a way for Satan to twist the truth in order to coerce or to bind someone's conscience.
[00:05:57]  Because we know that a lot of believers who are not choosing to be vaccinated are doing so for what they sincerely believe are reasons that would go against.
[00:06:08]  Their convictions for God, whether it's dealing with how they're manufactured or how they're tested, how they're developed, whatever the case may be.
[00:06:17]  So I didn't see that line of reasoning really making a lot of sense.
[00:06:20]  But the reality is that right now, all of the quote unquote experts have made it very clear that these vaccines don't protect anyone.
[00:06:27]  People who are vaccinated can get infected, people who are vaccinated can spread the infection.
[00:06:33]  And then at this point, it's like we know these things from the beginning, but then they come out and eventually have to catch up and go, oh, yeah.
[00:06:41]  Also, the efficacy of the vaccines, you know, it's waning.
[00:06:45]  And so, yeah, so I'm not with that.
[00:06:47]  I still, I've seen some churches that have that sentiment on their marquee boards outside of their churches.
[00:06:54]  I guess you said what they're called.
[00:06:55]  I'm not sure.
[00:06:56]  Yeah, yeah, marquee.
[00:06:57]  Yeah.
[00:06:57]  I've seen that.
[00:06:58]  And I just feel like that's such a farce and it's such a perverted way of binding or attempting to bind someone's conscience.
[00:07:06]  So, I don't, I don't agree.
[00:07:08]  I completely agree.
[00:07:09]  I think there's also problems.
[00:07:10]  I completely agree with everything you said.
[00:07:12]  And for me, it's like, all right, there's two lines of logic that we've heard, two narratives.
[00:07:16]  And in both cases, it's not, not only is it not loving your neighbor, it has nothing to do with your neighbor.
[00:07:23]  So the first line of reasoning is like, let's say that, you know, the data still hasn't come out.
[00:07:27]  And as far as we're concerned, it's the most efficacious vaccine in the history of all vaccines, you know, and the God of vaccines, you know, what.
[00:07:35]  And so if you go with that line of reasoning, the vaccine, it works, it's invulnerable, it's invincible, it's impenetrable, all those kinds of things.
[00:07:43]  Well, then by that logic, then again, all you're really doing by getting the vaccine is protecting yourself.
[00:07:48]  And so long as it's not protecting your neighbor.
[00:07:51]  Now, you can say, like what you said, that line of reasoning, you know, you can say, well, but if I have the vaccine, then I'm not going to get the virus.
[00:07:57]  And if I don't get the virus, then I'm not going to spread it to others.
[00:07:59]  But here's the big monkey wrench in the gears.
[00:08:03]  If you're saying that the vaccine is available to anyone who wants it, then it becomes incumbent upon each individual.
[00:08:11]  So it's an every man for himself kind of thing.
[00:08:13]  And not because we're being selfish, but because that's just the logic of the matter.
[00:08:17]  So if you're concerned about the virus, then you go and get the vaccine to So, this idea of getting a vaccine to protect someone else is just a completely foreign concept.
[00:08:27]  We've never thought about vaccines.
[00:08:29]  I've never thought, like, I'm going to get my kids, you know, the vaccine for polio so that my neighbor's kids don't wind up in a wheelchair.
[00:08:36]  That's no, it's my neighbor, if he wants his kids to be vaccinated from polio, right?
[00:08:41]  So each person is getting, because it's a defense, it's not giving a loaf of bread to somebody else and feeding them or nourishing them.
[00:08:48]  It's a shield.
[00:08:51]  It protects you, right?
[00:08:53]  Exactly.
[00:08:53]  It ties back to the irony of it all, is while they're calling those who, I don't want to say refuse, but those who do not desire to be vaccinated, Selfish, they themselves are practicing selfishness.
[00:09:07]  And we know that ultimately this boils down.
[00:09:09]  I never bothered someone for deciding to become vaccinated.
[00:09:13]  I probably said a few things online that I probably should not have said out of just frustration because I began to see the rhetoric rise where they're blaming the unvaccinated for certain things.
[00:09:26]  And I'm thinking, let's just be real.
[00:09:27]  You only got vaccinated because you want to get on the plane, you want to travel, you want to go to the bar, you want to go wherever.
[00:09:34]  So let's just be honest.
[00:09:35]  And then, I mean, the reality is that there's a real fear.
[00:09:38]  I think the episode that you were speaking about earlier came from a series called Are We Cowards?
[00:09:43]  And in that series, I'm just talking about how the church is responding in the way that the lost would respond when things came down the pike.
[00:09:52]  And my thought is that at the end of the day, like you said, even if this was the God of all vaccines, at the end of the day, we are created by the God of all gods.
[00:10:02]  And so I trust.
[00:10:04]  In his wisdom and how he designed our bodies, we're fallen, yes.
[00:10:07]  And so there will be situations where the immune system is not going to be perfect, of course, especially for those who are older, who are immunocompromised.
[00:10:16]  But I had no reason to rely on the vaccine for COVID.
[00:10:21]  I mean, who knows, depending on what the disease is, maybe it could change.
[00:10:27]  If it was like a flesh eating virus that as soon as someone looked at you, your face started to peel off, then okay, yeah, give me the vaccine, whatever.
[00:10:35]  This isn't that at all.
[00:10:36]  And it was very clear from the very beginning that this wasn't that.
[00:10:40]  And so, but I was afraid.
[00:10:42]  I think they saw what happened in China the way that they covered.
[00:10:47]  In my opinion, they overreacted.
[00:10:49]  But we have to remember consider the source.
[00:10:52]  China is a mostly communist society.
[00:10:58]  Sorry, I have to turn my alarm off.
[00:11:00]  It's a communist society.
[00:11:02]  They're mostly either atheists or Buddhists.
[00:11:05]  They don't.
[00:11:06]  Have Christ.
[00:11:07]  And so, of course, they're going to react that way.
[00:11:09]  And I think we saw those images and we began to liken COVID to a flesh eating virus.
[00:11:16]  And then those in the world who have no hope just kind of responded and overreacted, I guess I should say.
[00:11:24]  Yeah.
[00:11:25]  I completely agree.
[00:11:26]  Yeah, there's just a lot of fear, a lot of fear in society.
[00:11:29]  And sadly, there's a lot of fear in churches, even now, a year and a half later, right?
[00:11:34]  The 500 days to slow the spread.
[00:11:36]  But Hebrews 2, verses 14 through 15.
[00:11:39]  Hebrews 2, verses 14 through 15 says this Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself, being Christ, likewise partook of the same things that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.
[00:11:59]  And so my Bible tells me that Jesus Christ, the second person of the eternal Trinity, he took on flesh in real history.
[00:12:08]  Right, so, you know, the 1689 confession says that God is the most pure spirit without body parts and passion.
[00:12:14]  Well, Jesus, the second member of the Trinity, is also like the Father.
[00:12:18]  He was a most pure spirit without body parts and passions until 2000 years ago when he took on flesh.
[00:12:24]  He took on a body and he did so to fulfill prophecy, biblical prophecy, multiple reasons, but chiefly he did so so that in taking on flesh, he might actually give himself up for his flesh to be brutally ripped and torn apart to die on the cross for our sins.
[00:12:43]  And so he took on flesh so that he could die and by virtue of his death, that he could conquer the one who has power over death, that is the devil, and free.
[00:12:53]  The human race from a lifelong slavery to the fear of death.
[00:12:57]  And so I keep thinking, you know, when you see, I mean, it's really just the Democratic Party, it's the playbook that they've used for decades, but it's the boogeyman, right?
[00:13:06]  So, how do you cram through an incredibly progressive agenda, which, you know, when you have all these pesky individual rights and liberties in a constitution that keep getting in your way?
[00:13:17]  Well, ultimately, what you have to do is you have to take away people's freedom, right?
[00:13:20]  You have to make people slaves.
[00:13:22]  Well, how do you make people slaves?
[00:13:23]  How do you get them to trade in their freedom?
[00:13:25]  Well, people will trade, we've seen this throughout history.
[00:13:28]  And we're seeing it in the last 18 months.
[00:13:29]  People will trade individual freedom for public safety.
[00:13:33]  Now, now, but to get them to say, I want public safety so bad, I'll give away my individual rights, you have to have some kind of fear of death.
[00:13:42]  You have to have a threat.
[00:13:43]  You have to have the boogeyman.
[00:13:45]  And so for that to work, my point is for that to work on the world, for that to work on the pagan, for the unbeliever, for the person who is lost in this world, who is without Christ, makes perfect sense.
[00:13:57]  But for that to work on the church, That's supposed to be the church is supposed to be the blood bought people of the Lord who have already been freed by Christ through his death from slavery to the fear of death.
[00:14:10]  And so, if you think of it like this, there are slaves in the world, and the chains, the shackles that are holding them in bondage is fear of death.
[00:14:20]  Well, for Christians, Christ by his death conquered the one who has power over death and freed us from the fear of death so that we could no longer be slaves.
[00:14:31]  And when you think of slavery, you know, it's like.
[00:14:33]  Every time there's an edict from the White House, every time, you know, Dr. Fauci talks of, you know, every time that CDC has a new report, it's constant submission, constant obedience, constant complying.
[00:14:46]  It's the kind of behavior you would expect to see from a slave.
[00:14:49]  But again, the problem is why do we see it in the church?
[00:14:52]  These are supposed to be people who are not afraid of death.
[00:14:56]  And a person who's not afraid of death, who doesn't seek to keep his life, but is willing to lose his life, you know, for my sake and for the gospel so that he might actually find his life, that kind of person.
[00:15:06]  A free man is a brave man, right?
[00:15:09]  Like the land of the free, home of the brave, right?
[00:15:12]  America is certainly not the land of the free, and it's certainly not the home of the brave anymore.
[00:15:16]  But that should still be an accurate description of the people of God that we are brave because, or I should say, we're free because we're brave.
[00:15:26]  And I think the reason why we see very little distinction in many cases between the world and the church right now when it comes to immediately handing over freedoms. Is because we see very little distinction between the world and the church in terms of bravery.
[00:15:41]  So, whenever you don't have courage, you're going to find bondage.
[00:15:45]  And I think that I've seen almost an equal amount of complicity, submission, bondage, slavery in the church, which makes me think that the reason why is because the church, that's supposed to be bold and brave, because we have promises of eternal life, but it seems as though the church is just as afraid of losing their temporal earthly existence, this life.
[00:16:12]  As the pagan.
[00:16:13]  So the pagan has at least been honest and said, YOLO, you only live once.
[00:16:17]  The church denies that, but they're acting like YOLO is the reigning mantra.
[00:16:22]  They're acting like they only live once.
[00:16:24]  Would you agree with that?
[00:16:25]  I would definitely agree with that.
[00:16:26]  I think it stems from not truly trusting the Lord.
[00:16:29]  When I, right before everything hit, I recall I was putting myself on this.
[00:16:35]  I like to study scriptures based on certain things I might be going through in the moment.
[00:16:39]  That's not the only way I look at God's word, but if I need to be encouraged in a particular area, then I try to get all these scriptures put together and then just study them and just kind of meditate on them.
[00:16:49]  And one thing.
[00:16:51]  I was looking at maybe at the end of February of 2020, was trusting God and not man.
[00:16:57]  And it was just so funny.
[00:16:58]  And so I began to post things on my Instagram.
[00:17:00]  And then, like, right after that, everything hit with COVID.
[00:17:03]  And I immediately, they don't know what they're doing.
[00:17:05]  I said, these experts have no idea what they're doing.
[00:17:08]  And of course, 18 months later, it's very clear they have no clue.
[00:17:13]  And so I believe it boils down to a lot of people not truly trusting God.
[00:17:18]  They're trusting in men and they're trying to put it under the guise of, Oh, the Lord gave them wisdom, and so in order for us to honor the Lord, we must honor the wisdom that He has given them.
[00:17:30]  But I'm like, the wisdom that He has given them should not cause us to um dishonor the Lord or to distrust the Lord or to go against what the Lord has said.
[00:17:41]  And I've seen a lot of that.
[00:17:42]  There's definitely fear, there's distrust, and I don't want to say that everyone reacting this way is not necessarily trusting the gospel, but there should be a lot of self examination going on.
[00:17:55]  How do you trust?
[00:17:56]  In a gospel that tells you that you are called to suffer, that your very life can be at stake for proclaiming Christ.
[00:18:06]  And if you would bend the need to get a vaccine for the sake of keeping your job, I'm just saying, I mean, people may disagree with this, but my reasoning is if the Lord is telling me we're called to suffer and we're called to, we might end up going without, even though we know the Lord will still provide for us in some way.
[00:18:25]  Ultimately, if we are, Persecuted unto death for proclaiming who Christ is, then what does it make sense for me to bend the knee to get a mandated vaccine or whatever the edict is at the moment in order to protect my livelihood as if the Lord can't provide for me?
[00:18:45]  And so I think for me, ultimately, I'm so glad that I came into Reformed theology because it gave me a better, it gave me the vocabulary to articulate my faith.
[00:18:56]  But at the end of the day, I remain just this down home.
[00:19:00]  Southern God is God, and you know, just trusting God is it just gets to the basics of that.
[00:19:09]  Um, and so that's why I was able, I guess you could say, from 2020, um, to say something that still remains true in 2021 because I'm not speaking or I wasn't speaking from my opinion.

=== Coping with Pandemic and Repentance (03:48) ===

[00:19:23]  Um, in that episode, it was based on God's word.
[00:19:25]  God said this, God said this, God said this, and the Lord is the same, you know, He never, He doesn't change, He's the same forever.
[00:19:33]  He's the same from, I'm saying it all backwards, but past, present, and forever.
[00:19:40]  And so I just, when you stand on God's word, you will never be put to shame.
[00:19:45]  And so I just learned, I just definitely realized I just need to clean what does God's word say?
[00:19:50]  And so that's how I've been coping during this, as I've been calling it a panini or a ponderosa.
[00:19:56]  The way that I've been coping with the COVID pandemic has been to just cling to God's word and just really trying to look at things.
[00:20:03]  Spiritually.
[00:20:04]  I have some friends who laugh at me for that.
[00:20:07]  But I always look at things spiritually first and then move down to see how it's being worked out in the natural and the practical.
[00:20:14]  And it just didn't make sense from the beginning.
[00:20:17]  It just never made sense to me from a biblical standpoint.
[00:20:19]  I'm like, why would I fear this as if the Lord did not design my body to fight this?
[00:20:24]  Why would I fear, you know?
[00:20:26]  So, yeah, I fully agree with everything you said.
[00:20:29]  Yes, definitely.
[00:20:30]  Well, yeah, so everything you're saying, I agree with.
[00:20:33]  And, you know, that doesn't mean that there aren't serious viruses and, you know, the bubonic plague.
[00:20:38]  There are periods in history.
[00:20:40]  Human history and even church history, where there were some serious, serious plagues, viruses, disease, famine, all these kinds of things that killed a lot.
[00:20:50]  But here's the deal.
[00:20:51]  So, you know, I was in a pastor's meeting recently with a bunch of different pastors in the community, and a couple of them are lay elders, and so they're bivocational.
[00:21:00]  And they actually, these two guys, they both own funeral homes.
[00:21:03]  And I just, you know, out of curiosity, I wanted to talk to them, you know, and I said, so did you get any extra business, you know, in 2020 and 2021?
[00:21:11]  And they're like, nope.
[00:21:13]  We were a little disappointed.
[00:21:14]  You know, we thought business was going to be booming, but our numbers were pretty much exactly the same as they've always been.
[00:21:20]  And so, my point is I agree with you that, you know, behold, I am the Lord, I change not, you know, so that you, the sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
[00:21:28]  So, God doesn't change.
[00:21:29]  God's word doesn't change.
[00:21:30]  But there's another thing that doesn't change, which is man.
[00:21:34]  And, you know, now individual people can change by God's grace.
[00:21:37]  That's what conversion is.
[00:21:39]  You know, that's what repentance is.
[00:21:40]  That's what sanctification is.
[00:21:42]  But humanity in general, Not only does the word of God, which is unchanging, eternal, tell us about the unchanging God, that he in his essence and his character doesn't change, but it also gives us, it doesn't just give us the Bible providing theology, but it provides anthropology.
[00:21:59]  And people actually don't really change.
[00:22:01]  And so I remember when things were coming out, you know, all the way back in March of 2020, same thing.
[00:22:04]  For me, it wasn't merely just, I trust God because all that is wonderful and true, but it was also this sense of, all right, even in the midst of trusting God, God who is sovereign could send a plague that wipes a bunch of people out.
[00:22:18]  But here's the other thing God doesn't change, but also man doesn't change.
[00:22:22]  Like Jesus, there's a moment in the gospel narratives where he says, He did not entrust Himself.
[00:22:27]  They wanted to take Him by force and make Him king.
[00:22:29]  It says, But He did not give Himself to them, for He knew what was in man.
[00:22:34]  And Jesus had good, He didn't just have good theology.
[00:22:37]  He knew His Father and who the Father was, but He had good anthropology.
[00:22:41]  And so for me, even before the data came out, I remember thinking, All right, I know who God is, but the God who is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, so He's all-powerful and all-loving, Even while upholding his omnipotence, his power over everything, and his love towards his people, he could still send a plague that's incredibly dangerous.
[00:23:01]  But that's in the theology compartment.
[00:23:04]  But in the anthropology compartment, it's 2020, it's an election year.
[00:23:09]  Bad man, orange man.

=== Science, Immunity, and Loving God (13:51) ===

[00:23:12]  There's a lot, you know what I mean?
[00:23:13]  There are a lot of reasons that doesn't guarantee anything.
[00:23:17]  But I knew from the beginning, I was like, man, there could be some motives here, right?
[00:23:22]  I mean, Trump is like, we hate his Twitter feed, we hate his rhetoric, we hate this, we hate that.
[00:23:26]  But gosh, you know, we are making a little bit more money than we made four years earlier with Obama.
[00:23:31]  We like his economy.
[00:23:32]  Well, what if there was a way that you could shut down the economy?
[00:23:36]  The horse that Trump is riding up to the election on, his best triumph, you could take right out from underneath his legs just six months before the election.
[00:23:47]  What if you could shut down the economy?
[00:23:49]  Well, how do you get the American people to agree to shutting out the economy?
[00:23:52]  I mean, that's too odd.
[00:23:56]  Horrible virus, you know, like, and here's the thing you know, I mean, my wife is an RN, she works very part time, but she's an RN.
[00:24:03]  My brother in law, he is also an RN.
[00:24:05]  And hospitals, you know, there have been moments, there have been, you know, spikes and dips and spikes and dips.
[00:24:10]  Part of the reason hospitals have been overwhelmed is not just because there's so many people hospitalized.
[00:24:14]  It's still, the data is 1% of the people who get COVID actually are hospitalized.
[00:24:20]  But part of the problem with them being overwhelmed is because there's a shortage of hospital workers.
[00:24:25]  Why?
[00:24:25]  Well, because a lot of them had to be forcibly resigned because they weren't willing to get the vaccine.
[00:24:32]  So COVID is not the only problem.
[00:24:34]  So I say all that just to say that.
[00:24:36]  You know, there's a serious virus when there's somebody walking down your street in your neighborhood ringing a bell saying, Bring out your dead.
[00:24:42]  Right?
[00:24:42]  Bring out your dead.
[00:24:43]  Like, where are the bodies?
[00:24:45]  Right.
[00:24:45]  Where are the bodies?
[00:24:46]  And so, and then even with Charles Spurgeon and Martin Luther, I remember everybody was quoting those guys because they had quotes, because they had serious things in their day.
[00:24:55]  I think it was colic, some kind of lung disease in the days of Spurgeon.
[00:25:00]  And then there was a plague with Martin Luther.
[00:25:03]  And both of them said something to the tune of, I'm not going to go anywhere where my absence isn't needed, lest.
[00:25:08]  You know, without meaning to.
[00:25:11]  I hurt my neighbor, you know, by giving him, you know, causing him to become ill.
[00:25:15]  And I think that the two big things people are, quote, well, see, Luther said, Spurgeon said, but the two big factors that made what they said right and us using it and applying it wrong, in my opinion, was two big factors.
[00:25:28]  Number one, they weren't using that rhetoric to talk about not gathering together on the Lord's day.
[00:25:35]  Uh huh.
[00:25:36]  That's actually what got me.
[00:25:38]  It was a church.
[00:25:39]  The first gathering.
[00:25:40]  I was at work and.
[00:25:42]  The school I was working at at the time, I overheard them say that they had a conference coming up.
[00:25:48]  And I wasn't paying much attention to what was going on at the time, but I overheard some of the administrators say they're limiting gatherings to a thousand, anything more than that.
[00:25:58]  And I was like, gatherings.
[00:26:00]  It just clicked.
[00:26:00]  I don't know why, but it did.
[00:26:02]  But I was like, people can't gather.
[00:26:04]  And I was like, oh, they're going to come after the church.
[00:26:06]  And I just, you know, they're going to come.
[00:26:08]  And of course they did.
[00:26:09]  And I was actually very shocked at how quickly churches were shutting down the weekend.
[00:26:14]  Before everything was due to start with the two weeks to slow the spread, as long as that.
[00:26:21]  But that was my main clue right there.
[00:26:24]  I was like, oh, this isn't, again, I'm looking at things spiritually and then I bring it down to the practical aspect of it.
[00:26:30]  And I did see how, yeah, this is definitely an agenda, or at least this is being used.
[00:26:36]  I never thought that COVID was fake.
[00:26:40]  I thought, I recognized that the reaction, the way that they wanted to, Deal with it was very much just very nefarious, in my opinion.
[00:26:50]  And just having everything shut down.
[00:26:52]  Oh, well, all the sports teams can't play as well.
[00:26:54]  And I'm like, no, I hear that, but I don't think Satan cares that his kids can't play as long as the church can't play, you know, only to turn around and have, you know, marijuana dispensaries and liquor stores and, you know, Walmart where, you know, so I was like, oh, this is just something that's, you know, but it was definitely an opportunity to see.
[00:27:18]  Where people stood, and a lot of hearts are being tested right now, even now, still a year later, a year and a half later, hearts are being tested.
[00:27:26]  And I just pray that people will take a moment to examine themselves and really look at how they've responded to COVID and filter that through God's word and see have you truly been trusting what God's word says?
[00:27:38]  Have you truly been loving your sister and brother in Christ?
[00:27:41]  Have you truly been, and this goes for me as well.
[00:27:43]  But it's just been an interesting time.
[00:27:47]  Yeah, no, I agree.
[00:27:48]  Well, let's talk about that for a second.
[00:27:49]  So, just real quick before we move on, the love.
[00:27:52]  Your neighbor thing because that just gets so much press in the church, you know, with all things COVID.
[00:27:57]  Love your neighbor, love your neighbor.
[00:27:58]  Well, I think part of the problem is that, you know, because we're not saying, oh, well, we don't need to love our neighbor.
[00:28:04]  We're saying, you know, it's people are pitting, right?
[00:28:06]  So, loving God, loving neighbor.
[00:28:08]  And I think some people, they're creating in their minds a false dichotomy, right?
[00:28:12]  That you have one set of Christians that, you know, they want to be really careful.
[00:28:15]  They want to avoid gatherings, you know, or they want to wear a mask or they want to get the vaccine to love their neighbor.
[00:28:20]  And then you've got the crazy spiritual people, you know, like Joel and Constance, and they want to love God, you know.
[00:28:26]  Well, I'm not buying that.
[00:28:28]  I don't think that there's.
[00:28:29]  Anything, I don't think I know there's never a single time that God would ever, ever call us to love Him at the expense of neighbor.
[00:28:39]  So these two things are not pitted against one another.
[00:28:41]  This is the greatest commandment and the second greatest commandment, right?
[00:28:44]  So the greatest commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
[00:28:47]  And then the second one, so it's not like, well, you know, the second, love your neighbor as yourself.
[00:28:51]  It's not, well, you know, it's more important to love God than love people.
[00:28:54]  That's true.
[00:28:54]  That's theologically true.
[00:28:56]  And if we're not careful, I think we can buy into this trap.
[00:28:59]  It's a trap, and, you know, where people, you know, we say, Well, if I have to choose between loving God and loving my neighbor, I'm going to love God because that's the greatest commandment, and loving my neighbor is the second.
[00:29:08]  No, these two things, God who is sovereign over all things, will never providentially allow for any set of circumstances where his people will be called to love him in such a way that hates their neighbor.
[00:29:19]  That is a non existent scenario.
[00:29:21]  It does not exist.
[00:29:22]  And so the question is so the real kind of argument is not that we're loving God and this other group of people are loving neighbor.
[00:29:29]  No, we are claiming to love neighbor and they're claiming to love neighbor.
[00:29:33]  So then the rub, the actual rub is, What does it look like to love your neighbor?
[00:29:37]  Who gets to define love for neighbor?
[00:29:41]  And I would say God does.
[00:29:42]  God defines it.
[00:29:44]  And I would say that, you know, the two greatest commandments, and this is why we need the law of God.
[00:29:47]  This is why we need the Old Testament.
[00:29:49]  We love the gospel, but we also love the law.
[00:29:52]  We need law and gospel.
[00:29:53]  You know, Martin Luther used to say you can err in preaching by preaching the gospel, but not preaching the law.
[00:29:59]  And I think that's how a lot of the churches err today antinomianism.
[00:30:02]  There's grace, grace, grace, but there's no holiness.
[00:30:05]  There's no law.
[00:30:06]  There's no obedience.
[00:30:06]  All this is chalked up to legalism.
[00:30:08]  It's only legalism when you say, do this in order to earn salvation.
[00:30:12]  But when you say, do this out of gratitude for the free gift of grace you have through faith in Jesus Christ, that's not legalism.
[00:30:18]  That's just the Bible.
[00:30:20]  So we need the law of God.
[00:30:21]  The first four commandments in the Ten Commandments, the Decalogue, shows us how to love God.
[00:30:26]  So loving God is not a blank canvas for our creative license and freedom.
[00:30:31]  We love God by having no other gods before him, by not having graven images and idols, by not taking his name in vain.
[00:30:36]  So we love him with sincerity and by remembering the Sabbath day and keeping it holy.
[00:30:41]  And not neglecting the gathering on the Lord's day.
[00:30:44]  And then with love for neighbor, we have the next table of the law, which is commandment five through 10.
[00:30:49]  And one of those commandments, I think you could talk about COVID in relation to each of them, but one that really stands out to me is thou shalt not bear false witness.
[00:30:58]  Meaning that if I'm bearing false witness, if I am promulgating a lie, even if I'm not outright saying a falsehood, if I am giving off an impression that is deceitful by nature, that denies the facts, that denies the truth, That perpetuates an illusion in people's mind that is something other than reality, then I am in some sense bearing false witness and therefore hating my neighbor.
[00:31:27]  And so, one of the reasons why I didn't get the vaccine is for me, my family, my wife, me, and our three daughters, we had COVID.
[00:31:35]  And all the data suggests that it's anywhere from six to 13 times more durable the natural immunity from the virus than the vaccine, where you're going to have.
[00:31:45]  To here in a second, we're going to find out from Fauci that you're going to have to get a booster shot every 17 minutes.
[00:31:49]  You know, like, I mean, it keeps it went from eight months to six to five.
[00:31:53]  So, my immunity, I am actually much more safer from my neighbors than anybody with a vaccine.
[00:32:00]  And so, for me going to get the vaccine, or for me walking around wearing a mask all the time, the mask is like, why is everyone so afraid?
[00:32:06]  Well, because you walk out of your house and it's like you're in a post apocalyptic world.
[00:32:11]  It looks scary.
[00:32:12]  And so, I think like there are so many things where, because the mask says something.
[00:32:16]  You know, one group is saying it says, I love my neighbor.
[00:32:19]  Well, I say that the mask gives off an illusion that the virus is much worse than it actually is, which is a form of.
[00:32:26]  Bearing false witness, which is to hate my neighbor.
[00:32:29]  So, at the end of the day, it's not one group wants to love their neighbor and one group wants to love God.
[00:32:34]  No, we want to love God by loving our neighbor and we want to let God define how to love our neighbor.
[00:32:40]  And we think that this isn't it.
[00:32:42]  Would you agree with that?
[00:32:43]  And there's anything you want to add to that?
[00:32:45]  I would totally agree with that.
[00:32:46]  I think from the beginning, before vaccines were even a thing, just the idea of the mask, I realized that the optics were necessary to that psychological warfare that was being played or that was being waged.
[00:32:59]  It you needed that optic of having the mask before last year.
[00:33:05]  I'd only seen people maybe in China wear face masks, and I know they've had like little outbreaks of different things over there, so that's but again, that's over there.
[00:33:14]  I can't speak to that, but it was just weird for it to be in America of all places.
[00:33:19]  Like, seriously, I honestly thought we would respond to this thing a lot differently.
[00:33:24]  Um, so it's like I thought that I thought America would respond differently, and I definitely thought the church would respond differently.
[00:33:29]  So when you go to church and you're being told that.
[00:33:32]  You have to wear a mask at worship service.
[00:33:35]  It just looks, and you're in, and people are singing with their mask on, you're raising your hand, you're saying all these things that run totally like counter to what it is you're displaying.
[00:33:46]  And I hate that.
[00:33:47]  I hate that so much.
[00:33:48]  I hate that feeling so much.
[00:33:50]  So, anytime, you know, a church decides that they want to have outdoor service, I'm all about it because, because of like, you know, I would prefer that we exercise a lot more faith and just worship inside of the building that we have.
[00:34:00]  And, you know, but if this is what helps everyone feel comfortable, great.
[00:34:04]  But I just, This whole thing has been a test of patience for sure.
[00:34:10]  And then, just also, in the just speaking of what you said about bearing false witness, I was just telling a friend the other day that, and speaking to your point about natural immunity, the whole idea, and the world may not recognize this, but spiritually, I can discern that this is a way to undermine the wisdom and just the way that the Lord created us.
[00:34:30]  And to say, I think I heard something today with Fauci said they were asking him about natural immunity.
[00:34:35]  He goes, Well, you know, There is some evidence to suggest that there is some level of protection, but you know, the durability is still in question.
[00:34:45]  I'm like, it's 18 months later, dear.
[00:34:46]  How, why is it still in question?
[00:34:48]  Like, are you guys not studying?
[00:34:49]  You've studied everything else, but natural immunity, you're like, well, we don't know.
[00:34:52]  The data's still out, you know, and a way, and they may not be cognizant of it, but I can see spiritually how this is a way to mock the Lord's creation, to mock the wisdom of the Lord designing our bodies the way that he did.
[00:35:06]  I can totally see that.
[00:35:08]  And And it's just hard to have this conversation with different people because you get accused of being super spiritual.
[00:35:14]  But my response is ultimately that we're supposed to be walking in the spirit.
[00:35:18]  So I don't understand why it's a problem.
[00:35:21]  But they're pushing this vaccine as the holy grail.
[00:35:25]  And with everything that has been revealed and how they're following the science, and the science is just in their science.
[00:35:33]  I believe in science because it's just the study of God's creation, it's the study of God's creation.
[00:35:38]  But when they pervert it, I don't believe in perverted science.
[00:35:42]  I'm not going to follow perverted science.
[00:35:44]  I've had COVID as well.
[00:35:46]  And I definitely agree with it, especially my symptoms weren't horrible.
[00:35:53]  You know, I can't, I don't want to undermine someone else's experience with it.
[00:35:56]  But just knowing what I know from my own experience, my mom, I think she was the first person who I knew personally who got it.
[00:36:03]  She's a nurse and she got it pretty early on.
[00:36:05]  Of course, she's, you know, working in that field.
[00:36:08]  And with her being, I think she was 60 at the time and she's, you know, closer to that age range where it was like, oh, you know.
[00:36:16]  Like, oh, just eat a salad, drink some water.
[00:36:20]  You know, she really was just like, oh, just take some vitamin C, go make sure you go for a walk.
[00:36:24]  You know, her whole demeanor was just very lax and laid back.
[00:36:28]  And, you know, she's like, oh, just make sure you take care of yourself and you're good to go.
[00:36:31]  But I mean, again, it's just, I don't want to negate someone else's experience, but I'm just saying for the majority, and the data continues to suggest that for the majority, this thing is like, you know, the flu or a bad cold.
[00:36:45]  You know, you take care of yourself and you're good to go.
[00:36:46]  But for some reason, the vaccines, and another thing I'm finding interesting about the Push of the vaccines, even as they speak about the efficacy of the vaccines and say, oh, well, it's good for reducing symptoms.
[00:36:57]  Were we not on lockdown because most people were asymptomatic or had very mild symptoms?

=== Judgments on Church Discipline (04:32) ===

[00:37:03]  And so that's why the world shut down because you couldn't really control it and know who had it.
[00:37:07]  I was like, so the vaccines really aren't doing more than what was already going on.
[00:37:12]  But if this is what makes people feel comfortable, then okay.
[00:37:16]  If you believe the lie, then okay.
[00:37:19]  But yeah, I definitely see this.
[00:37:21]  I see the bearing false witness.
[00:37:22]  I see the people who are showing that they don't truly trust the Lord.
[00:37:26]  And again, I want to be careful with that because I don't want that to mean that they are not believers.
[00:37:32]  Because I know there's, you know, in scripture, when it's, you know, they say, you know, I believe the Lord helped my unbelief.
[00:37:39]  So I get that sometimes you have those moments, but 18 months, people, come on now.
[00:37:44]  Let's, let's, I don't know.
[00:37:47]  Let's get it together.
[00:37:48]  Yeah.
[00:37:48]  No, I agree.
[00:37:49]  Yeah.
[00:37:50]  I have, having, Having a contradicting view to yours and mine on the issues of COVID and issues of lockdowns and issues of all that does not necessitate that somebody's not a Christian.
[00:37:59]  We're not saying that.
[00:38:01]  However, I think as time goes on, you do, you know, it just depends.
[00:38:08]  You know, if somebody's saying, I'm not going to gather with the church, and it's, you know, another 18 months go by, and this person is 30 years old and perfectly healthy, and then eventually, you know, you do have to, you know, like you tell.
[00:38:23]  Man looks at the outward appearance, God sees the heart.
[00:38:25]  However, there is a sense, you know, people say we can't judge.
[00:38:27]  You know, well, that's not true.
[00:38:29]  You know, John, you know, the Gospel of John, chapter 7, you know, that we need to judge with right judgments.
[00:38:36]  So, you know, the same judgment that you judge others, you're going to be judged.
[00:38:40]  And then the very next verse, the first five verses, Jesus talks about, you know, judging and gives us warnings about issuing judgments.
[00:38:45]  But then the very next verse, verse six, he says, do not give what is holy to pigs, you know, swine, and don't cast, you know, or pearls to swigs and pigs, and do not give what is holy to dogs.
[00:38:57]  Well, how do you know who a pig is?
[00:38:59]  You make a judgment, right?
[00:39:00]  So there is a sense in which we can see the heart of man.
[00:39:03]  God alone sees the heart perfectly.
[00:39:05]  But that doesn't mean we can't see the heart at all because the Bible says, out of the abundance of the mouth or out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
[00:39:13]  So in someone's speech, we get a glimpse of the heart.
[00:39:16]  Jesus also says, you know, you'll know them by their fruits.
[00:39:19]  So both in words and in deeds, there is a sense in which we're able to make a judgment.
[00:39:23]  I mean, and that's ultimately the idea of the church excommunicating someone.
[00:39:27]  So the whole doctrine, the whole existence of, you know, like, 1 Corinthians chapter 5, expel the immoral brother.
[00:39:35]  How do you do that?
[00:39:36]  How do you expel him if you can't actually make a judgment?
[00:39:40]  And so, what we're seeing is that the deeds of a person and the words of a person at some level do reveal the heart.
[00:39:47]  And now, that said, everything we say is a revelation of the heart.
[00:39:53]  But if somebody has an outburst in a moment, we can't say, well, that doesn't reveal anything.
[00:40:00]  No, it reveals every word.
[00:40:02]  We're going to be held accountable for every word.
[00:40:03]  So, even that flying off the handle in one moment still says something about your heart and who you are as a person.
[00:40:10]  But there's a difference in someone getting into a quarrel.
[00:40:14]  Versus being quarrelsome, right?
[00:40:15]  Being marked by it.
[00:40:17]  It's like this common characteristic, it's an ongoing pattern.
[00:40:21]  And so I think as time continues to go by, and as we're able to detect clear, unwavering patterns, then eventually, I think that we can make those judgments.
[00:40:31]  And for myself as a local pastor, if I had someone in my church who was young and healthy, and me and the elders pastorally had been saying, hey, I know that you're being lied to, but this is the data, and this, more importantly, is God's word, and this is what it says.
[00:40:45]  Um, after 18 months, I don't have anybody like that in my church because people like that don't come to my church, they know better, they listen to me online, and they stay away.
[00:40:52]  But if I had somebody like that in my church, if 18 months went by and I was providing for them both the word of God and the special revelation and natural revelation, the data surrounding the virus, and this person is healthy and this person is young and they've missed 18 months of church and they're still not going to come, I would excommunicate them.
[00:41:11]  I would at this point, I would excommunicate them.
[00:41:14]  I now would not do it personally because I don't believe that's what I would call on the church, right?
[00:41:18]  Tell it to the church, our church.
[00:41:20]  I would excommunicate them, treating them as a tax collector or a Gentile, meaning maybe they are converted and maybe God uses this measure of discipline to bring about repentance and bring them back.
[00:41:31]  But in terms of our interaction with them, we are no longer going to call this person a brother in Christ.

=== Excommunication and Self-Examination (02:11) ===

[00:41:35]  I would do that.
[00:41:36]  But my point is so we're not saying that anybody who disagrees is not a Christian.
[00:41:40]  However, I just want to give that caveat.
[00:41:42]  We're also not saying that this in no way reveals something about a person's faith because it does.
[00:41:50]  Yeah, it does.
[00:41:51]  This season is very much a time of just.
[00:41:54]  I don't want to say sifting, but hearts are very much being tested.
[00:41:58]  And I think, as much as we, I'm taking a social media break at this point, but because I had to examine my own heart, but just looking at how many are responding to this pandemic, how they're responding, what they're doing in response to everything, it's telling us a lot about ourselves.
[00:42:18]  And as much as we fight online about who's right, who's wrong, we really should be taking some time to examine ourselves.
[00:42:24]  Like, why do I, you know, feel like I need to use hand sanitizer every five seconds?
[00:42:28]  Why do, you know, Why did I need to buy up all the toilet paper?
[00:42:32]  Why am I missing church gathering with the saints, but I'm protesting at a BLM protest?
[00:42:42]  Like, seriously, those kinds of things.
[00:42:44]  And I've seen that happen, especially last summer, where people were not coming to church because they wanted to love their neighbor and protect the elderly or whatnot, and then would still go to a protest with a cause.
[00:42:59]  Okay, yes.
[00:43:00]  I agree from a factual statement, as a factual statement, Black lives do matter because all lives matter.
[00:43:06]  That's just what it is.
[00:43:09]  But when you have a movement that is pretty much all inclusive and you're out there as a believer, you know, and BLM is also supporting or is actually based in promoting, you know, the LGBT agenda and breakdown of the nuclear family and feminism, and you see all of this happening, but you're like, but I hate racism, though.
[00:43:34]  So I'm justified in going out there.
[00:43:36]  So it's like, no, you don't need the world's help or you don't need to join the world to fight for what's good.
[00:43:42]  Just do what the church has been doing for centuries, you know?

=== Spiritual Warfare Against Evil Spirits (03:44) ===

[00:43:46]  So, and gather and gather.
[00:43:48]  We protest by it, by way.
[00:43:50]  That's right.
[00:43:51]  We protest by going to church, you know?
[00:43:53]  So that's right.
[00:43:54]  That's right.
[00:43:55]  Yeah, every, I, amen.
[00:43:56]  I always say, like, you know, when we gather together on the Lord's day, when the saints gather together on the Lord's day for the, the administering of the ordinary means of grace, the public preaching the word, public praying of the word, public singing of the word, and public seeing of the word.
[00:44:10]  As it were, in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper and baptism, it's the only images we walk not by sight but by faith.
[00:44:16]  However, the Lord has prescribed to us two images in the Lord's Supper and in baptism.
[00:44:21]  And when we gather together as the saints on the Lord's Day for the ministering of these ordinary means of grace, it is kind of a threefold thing.
[00:44:29]  One, it is first and foremost, it is our act of worship to God, it's a sweet smelling perfume, it's a fragrance that ascends to heaven where God is enthroned and blesses his heart.
[00:44:44]  Secondly, though, it's also for the sheep.
[00:44:47]  So it's for the Lord.
[00:44:48]  It's also for the sheep.
[00:44:49]  It's, you know, the Puritans used to say the Lord's Day gathering is the marketplace for the soul.
[00:44:54]  Or, you know, some of the Puritans said that it's likened to John Bunyan's, you know, Pilgrim's Progress, the Delectable Mountains, where the sheep, the weary pilgrims, are fed by these shepherds.
[00:45:05]  And it's the only place in Christian, you know, and hopeful and faithful, their journey to the celestial city.
[00:45:10]  It's the only place where, even though they haven't yet made it to the celestial city, they can make out the celestial city.
[00:45:16]  From a distance, they can see it.
[00:45:17]  They get a glimpse.
[00:45:18]  And every Lord's Day, there's a sense in which our worship ascends to heaven, but there's also a sense in which we are nourished and fed and we are ascended to heaven in a spiritual sense.
[00:45:28]  We're seated with Him in heavenly places and we get a glimpse, a reminder of the things to come, the heavenly celestial city that we're going to.
[00:45:35]  But the third aspect so for the Lord, for the sheep, but it's also for the pagan because worship is warfare.
[00:45:42]  And when we worship, our worship goes up, it ascends by the power of the Spirit.
[00:45:47]  To bless the Father's heart.
[00:45:49]  But the Father, in His grace and mercy, is pleased to condescend and to accomplish on earth His will in heaven.
[00:45:57]  And He uses, He goes out from our worship.
[00:46:00]  He goes out.
[00:46:00]  Every church is like a little beachhead, like a little military base.
[00:46:05]  And the Lord, He is pleased to condescend and to go out from us.
[00:46:09]  And so it is a protest against principalities, against powers of darkness.
[00:46:14]  Our battle is not against flesh and blood.
[00:46:16]  It's ultimately not against people, but it's against a spirit.
[00:46:18]  Spiritual enemy, and the Lord uses our worship to begin to topple idols and regional principalities and powers of darkness.
[00:46:26]  And in all of that, it does affect people because even though our battle, I always say that our battle is not against flesh and blood, it's against Satan.
[00:46:35]  However, Paul, when he writes to Timothy, he says that we should be careful to rebuke our opponents with gentleness, not knowing if God might grant them repentance, even after they have been taken captive by Satan.
[00:46:50]  Satan to do his will.
[00:46:51]  So our battle is not against people, flesh and blood, it's against Satan.
[00:46:54]  However, Satan, the one that we're battling against, he takes people captive in his ranks.
[00:47:00]  He uses people in his army.
[00:47:02]  And so that doesn't mean we pick up a literal sword and we're, you know, slaying people.
[00:47:05]  But what it does mean is that we have a spiritual sword.
[00:47:08]  We're doing battle in the heavenlies.
[00:47:10]  God is going before us.
[00:47:11]  The Lord is our great warrior and our worship is his warfare.
[00:47:15]  And as he is having an effect in the spiritual realm with principalities, there is an effect on earth because God is not a Gnostic, and he actually does care about flesh and blood.
[00:47:25]  He does care about this material world that he made.
[00:47:28]  And so, anyways, our worship, our gathering is a protest.

=== Systemic Oppression and Vaccine Mandates (15:56) ===

[00:47:31]  You're absolutely right.
[00:47:31]  It's threefold.
[00:47:33]  It's a blessing to the Lord Himself.
[00:47:35]  It's nourishment and encouragement to the sheep.
[00:47:37]  And it is warfare against the principalities of darkness.
[00:47:40]  And it changes things even among the pagans.
[00:47:43]  And so to say that we can protest for Black Lives Matter, we can protest for George Floyd, but we can't protest the real enemy in this world, which is not systematic racism in America, but the real enemy, the principality of this world, Satan, that we can't protest Him, the father of lies, the one who from the beginning was a murderer, is ultimately to say that we.
[00:48:05]  We can only protest pretend evil, but we can't protest real evil.
[00:48:09]  It's again, it's bearing false witness.
[00:48:12]  It's bearing false witness.
[00:48:13]  So, okay.
[00:48:17]  All right.
[00:48:19]  Okay.
[00:48:19]  So, here's the next question.
[00:48:20]  We got to move on.
[00:48:21]  I appreciate that.
[00:48:22]  I need you.
[00:48:23]  You got to come on a Sunday because I could, when I'm preaching, I could use that.
[00:48:26]  I could use your clapping.
[00:48:28]  So, I got a bunch of white people in my church and it's just, it's quiet.
[00:48:32]  It's very quiet.
[00:48:33]  So, they love my preaching too.
[00:48:35]  They just, they affirm my preaching by doing this.
[00:48:40]  You know, so anyway, maybe taking some notes, writing.
[00:48:43]  Okay, so here we go.
[00:48:44]  So liberals say that the black community is hesitant to get the vaccine.
[00:48:49]  And I know you don't speak for all black people, but I want to get your opinion.
[00:48:51]  Liberals say that the black community is hesitant to get the vaccine because of historic abuses of white political leaders and white medical professionals against black people.
[00:49:01]  I think of eugenics.
[00:49:02]  You know, I mean, some of that, there is something to be said there.
[00:49:06]  So do you, Constance, do you think that that's the real reason?
[00:49:09]  Uh, why do you think that some people, you know, it's like Trump supporters and the black community both tend to have this hesitancy about the vaccine?
[00:49:18]  So, you know, and then there's the famous saying from Nicki Minaj, and she was picked up by, you know, uh, Carl, uh, Tucker Carlson, and so there's that whole thing.
[00:49:26]  I would just want to hear your theological, political, cultural commentary on Nicki Minaj, the black community, the vaccine, Tucker Carlson, the whole nine yards.
[00:49:35]  What do you think?
[00:49:36]  So, as far as um, I actually can.
[00:49:42]  I would say I somewhat agree with that sentiment, unfortunately.
[00:49:46]  And I mean, what else do they expect people to do after five years, at least five years of being told repeatedly that you are systemically oppressed because of the color of your skin, at least since 2014.
[00:50:02]  When was the situation with Ferguson?
[00:50:06]  Michael Brown.
[00:50:07]  Yeah, Michael Brown.
[00:50:08]  And then Trayvon Martin.
[00:50:10]  Trayvon Martin.
[00:50:11]  At least since 2013, 2014, we have been told over and over and over again that.
[00:50:16]  They are after us.
[00:50:17]  They are against us.
[00:50:18]  And there is this thing now where they're talking about healthcare racism.
[00:50:23]  And the CDC director, Rochelle Rolinski, actually supports that narrative, which is very unfortunate.
[00:50:33]  And so there is that element.
[00:50:35]  But if I'm honest, I don't think that that is the whole shebang for why there are Black people hesitant to take, or a large number of Black people hesitant to take the vaccine.
[00:50:47]  You mentioned something about Trump supporters and Or conservatives and then blacks, like how these things work out.
[00:50:53]  The irony of it all is that most people don't realize that the African American community has been largely conservative.
[00:51:04]  Like it's mostly conservative and it has a lot of church, a lot of people were raised in the church, at least black Americans, I'll put it that way, were raised in the church.
[00:51:13]  You know, you're coming from the South, you're coming from, even though the Bible was weaponized against slaves and things like that, there's that.
[00:51:22]  The reality is that a lot of our ancestors were raised with some knowledge of the Bible.
[00:51:28]  And so it's just been passed down on and on and on.
[00:51:30]  And I have heard Black people, I've heard other races as well, but I've definitely heard Black people who probably have not even walked inside of a church in like the last decade go, you know what?
[00:51:41]  I don't know.
[00:51:42]  Like, this looks a little crazy.
[00:51:43]  Like, the whole world is shut down.
[00:51:45]  And you're telling me that the only way I can have a job and do is to take this thing.
[00:51:50]  That's the mark of the beast.
[00:51:51]  And I'm like, okay, well, you know, but then a lot of white people think that.
[00:51:56]  Yeah, there is some level of awareness of something's not right.
[00:52:01]  So, I do think that there's an element where people may look at it as systemic oppression, but it's a little unfortunate because you have that situation where even if they think that way, the reality is systemic oppression happens when you are forcing individuals to take a vaccine in order to participate in the global economy.
[00:52:23]  If they don't do it, they're shut out of society.
[00:52:27]  And it just so happens that a large, at least 60% of the African American community fall into that particular category.
[00:52:35]  I haven't seen many.
[00:52:37]  I haven't seen many Black people, especially the Black Lives Matter group among the Black Lives Matter group.
[00:52:42]  I have not seen a lot of people who were very much in the streets last year talking about systemic oppression and police brutality and all that.
[00:52:50]  And I've not seen anyone say, wait a minute now, you're telling me that if I don't get this vaccine, I can't do this.
[00:52:56]  And a large population of my people or my community fall into this category.
[00:53:02]  That is systemic oppression.
[00:53:04]  It may not be, well, the reality is it's not based on race, but Who, you know, at this point, the logic that they were using last year, who cares what it's truly based on?
[00:53:13]  Because CRT says everything is racist.
[00:53:16]  So I'm surprised that they not use this thing that's very, it's a glaring, truthfully, an issue that's very clearly systemic oppression.
[00:53:26]  They're not calling this out at all.
[00:53:28]  And I think someone called out, oh gosh, what is the guy's name?
[00:53:32]  He peddles critical race theory.
[00:53:34]  I forget his name.
[00:53:35]  And they asked him, did he think.
[00:53:37]  Jamar Tisby?
[00:53:38]  No, it wasn't Jamar.
[00:53:39]  I don't think it was Jamar Tisby.
[00:53:40]  Oh, Oh gosh, what is this guy's name?
[00:53:42]  I should have looked it up.
[00:53:43]  That's all right.
[00:53:44]  That's all right.
[00:53:45]  But he basically asked him, Do you think that the vaccine mandates is, you know, another form of racism?
[00:53:51]  He goes, Well, actually, I mean, he didn't know how to answer it.
[00:53:55]  Because if he says it is, then now he becomes an anti vaxxer.
[00:54:00]  And then now he, you know, so it's like the ideologies are starting to, they're being pit against one another.
[00:54:07]  It's like, you're absolutely right.
[00:54:09]  It's almost like transgenderism and feminism.
[00:54:13]  So, like LGBT, it's like that T is really messing things up for the L, the G, and the B. Right?
[00:54:21]  Because the L, the G, and the B were having a great time.
[00:54:24]  And then all of a sudden, the T came along and really made things weird.
[00:54:28]  But you're right.
[00:54:29]  It's this contradiction that, you know, how are you a lesbian if there's no such thing as women?
[00:54:35]  Right.
[00:54:36]  Right.
[00:54:36]  You know, how are you bi if there's more than two genders or no such thing as gender and it's just a binary construct and all that?
[00:54:45]  And how can you be a feminist?
[00:54:47]  I mean, feminists, it's funny, like some people who, because things have been changing so rapidly, this sexual revolution is just, this train has been going down the track at just incredible speeds to the point where just five years ago, three years ago, two years ago, not that long at all, people who were LGBT advocates and raging feminists, and professional athletes, female athletes are all of a sudden really upset, right?
[00:55:14]  All of a sudden, they're like, oh, whoa, I didn't want it to go there.
[00:55:17]  Because now all of a sudden, you know, teenage girls are losing their trophies because a bunch of guys are, you know, putting on makeup and a tracksuit and beating them, you know.
[00:55:25]  And so, anyway, so I completely agree.
[00:55:28]  It's just like that, it's the inconsistency, the illogical nature of man's law versus God's law, of secularism.
[00:55:37]  Secularism is pagan.
[00:55:39]  And what we have to realize is neutrality is a myth.
[00:55:41]  There is no neutrality.
[00:55:42]  It's either you are for Christ or you are against him.
[00:55:45]  And it's either Christ, ultimately, any other worldview.
[00:55:48]  So, whether it be, you know, Islam on the one side, so let's say Christianity is right here, you could have Islam on one side, and then on the other side, you have secularism.
[00:55:56]  But both have an agenda.
[00:55:58]  Neither one is morally neutral.
[00:56:00]  And at the end of the day, it's either Christ or chaos.
[00:56:02]  It's Christ or chaos.
[00:56:03]  And so we're seeing chaos right now.
[00:56:05]  And you're absolutely right.
[00:56:07]  It's like, okay, well, this is something that you would tend to think the liberal media would be eating up every chance they get.
[00:56:14]  Because, I mean, how long ago was it?
[00:56:16]  Like, literally, I think less than a month ago, right?
[00:56:19]  That all of a sudden, you know, these laws for voter registration are systematically racist and oppressive because you got to have a driver's license.
[00:56:28]  And as you know, Constance, no black person knows how to get a driver's license.
[00:56:31]  How insulting is that?
[00:56:33]  Right?
[00:56:34]  You know, so that's what we're being told.
[00:56:36]  And now, but that's the vote.
[00:56:38]  You got to have a driver's license.
[00:56:39]  Now we're being said way more than a driver's license.
[00:56:41]  You got to have this vaccine card and inject something in your arm just to have a job and feed your family.
[00:56:46]  Right.
[00:56:48]  And that one, we actually do have stats, statistics that it is disproportionately affecting people of color.
[00:56:56]  Yeah.
[00:56:56]  Like going back to Bishop Pearl, like I need some evidence.
[00:56:58]  But we can't talk about it.
[00:57:00]  Yeah.
[00:57:01]  But we can't talk about it.
[00:57:02]  So it's so much hypocrisy.
[00:57:03]  And that just goes back to what you were saying about with Nicki Minaj, that whole situation.
[00:57:08]  Situation.
[00:57:09]  The day all that came out, that's the day I decided to take a break from things were crazy.
[00:57:15]  It was actually really funny.
[00:57:16]  I have to say this though I do not support Nicki Minaj.
[00:57:21]  I'm not a fan of hers or anything like that.
[00:57:23]  I actually did a blog post on her about three or four years ago because she partnered with a, it was more so about the quote unquote gospel artist who partnered with Nicki Minaj to do the song.
[00:57:34]  The artist's theology is very much questionable.
[00:57:38]  I honestly don't think that they truly believe the gospel.
[00:57:41]  I just got to put that out there.
[00:57:43]  But I wrote, so I'm not a Barb or whatever her group was called.
[00:57:48]  I'm not an Nicki Minaj fan, but I am a reasonable human being.
[00:57:53]  And she made some valid points concerning needing to research the vaccine more.
[00:58:00]  I did not appreciate how people on Twitter were telling her, well, you're rich.
[00:58:05]  What other questions do you have?
[00:58:07]  You have doctors and other experts at your disposal to get the answers.
[00:58:11]  Why are you?
[00:58:11]  I'm like, Give the lady time to do whatever research she needs to do.
[00:58:15]  She just had a child.
[00:58:17]  She has other things going on between she and her husband, and she's a global superstar.
[00:58:22]  She may not have had the time to really look into this the way others have.
[00:58:25]  So I just thought it was weird.
[00:58:27]  But the thing, I actually agree with her throughout the whole thing.
[00:58:33]  I think just the conversation she was having with her fans, she tends to be more transparent and more approachable, I guess you could say, with her fan base.
[00:58:41]  And so I appreciated the conversation she was having with them.
[00:58:45]  And you would think that the liberal side of things would have acknowledged how she was telling people, hey, if you need to feed your family and they tell you you need the vaccine to do that, then get the vaccine.
[00:58:55]  She was saying that.
[00:58:57]  But they didn't care.
[00:58:59]  The fact that she said that she wanted to do it on her terms triggered a lot of people.
[00:59:04]  And then, of course, they found the one thing to make her look silly, which was the anecdote about her husband's friend.
[00:59:12]  Yeah, that whole thing.
[00:59:14]  Um, but swollen tea, yeah, even with that, I wasn't really.
[00:59:17]  It was hilarious.
[00:59:18]  But even with that, I wasn't offended by it because we all do that.
[00:59:21]  Like, oh, no, I heard, at least I do.
[00:59:24]  Maybe I'm wrong.
[00:59:24]  I don't know.
[00:59:25]  But when we're trying to figure things out, you know, I heard this happen.
[00:59:28]  So I need to look at this a little bit more.
[00:59:29]  So I don't see, I didn't see the harm.
[00:59:31]  And I mean, I would, I don't think it was wise for her to put her cousin's friends' information out there.
[00:59:37]  But I think she was probably in the moment and just having this conversation with her fans and just kind of, that's how I saw it, I should say.
[00:59:43]  I don't know what her actual intentions were, but they came and she's a liar.
[00:59:48]  She's spreading disinformation.
[00:59:49]  I'm like, or she's just.
[00:59:50]  Figuring it out.
[00:59:51]  And she wasn't given the room to do that.
[00:59:55]  And then they shut her down.
[00:59:56]  But what came out of it was a larger issue, which is the media silencing anyone who either questioned the vaccine or spoke any type of truth that they don't want to get out.
[01:00:10]  And so I think that's where a lot of conservatives came in.
[01:00:18]  I think a lot of the conservative crowd came in when she began to talk about wait a minute, is this even America anymore?
[01:00:24]  She did this live stream where she talked about how, you know, being raised in Trinidad, her either someone, either her mother or grandparents, or someone told her to be grateful that, you know, in America, she could go to church openly because in certain places you couldn't do that.
[01:00:40]  And so she kind of spoke to a larger issue, but of course the media just kept honing in on the cousin's friend and it's just making the whole thing crazy.
[01:00:48]  But she spoke, as the kids say, facts about being silenced.
[01:00:53]  And we see that happening.
[01:00:54]  I mean, of course, these are principalities at work that are trying to suppress the truth.
[01:00:59]  And so I definitely agree with her sentiment on that.
[01:01:02]  I don't agree with a lot of things that Nicki Minaj is involved in, including how she responded to some certain things, of course, her language and all of that in dealing with it.
[01:01:11]  But the basic point she made about being silenced for asking questions or for even possibly not wanting to go along with the get along game and being canceled because of that.
[01:01:27]  So I agree with her there.
[01:01:29]  I definitely agree.
[01:01:30]  I don't want to say I had her back, but I told, but when I saw that Tucker Carlson spoke about her in his segment and then she tweeted the segment, and that's okay, you know, liberals were like, you know, trigger, you know, so, but everything just kind of went crazy.
[01:01:48]  And I was like, I need a break.
[01:01:49]  Like the internet is wild.
[01:01:51]  So I just took it.
[01:01:52]  It's wild.
[01:01:53]  Yeah.
[01:01:53]  I agree with everything you're saying.
[01:01:54]  And I think with, you know, Nicki Minaj, like, you know, sometimes like celebrities and, you know, it's just, it's hard to tell, is this just an act or you just, is this, You know, is this a play or is this genuine?
[01:02:05]  And, you know, like, like the tone that she had, the disposition that she had was like, like, it's scary.
[01:02:11]  You know, people are afraid to say anything for being silenced or what's.
[01:02:16]  And, you know, at first I thought, like, I remember when I was listening to a clip of that.
[01:02:20]  I think I was listening to either Matt Walsh or Michael Knowles and they played a clip and I'm hearing, you know, Nicki Minaj's voice and it sounds kind of dramatic, kind of emotional, talking about like, you know, she can't, like, she's shocked.
[01:02:32]  She's shocked, you know, that they're.
[01:02:34]  Trying to suppress people, you can't even ask a question, you can't even take a little time, you can't disagree or anything.
[01:02:39]  And she sounds so shocked, and I'm thinking, she's just playing for the cameras, this is just a celebrity.
[01:02:43]  And then it hit me, I thought, oh, wait, um, raging, immoral, sexual revolution pushing liberals, this is their first time that they've experienced what we as conservative Christians have been experiencing for years.
[01:03:00]  So she probably actually, I don't think she was acting, I think Nicki Minaj probably was shocked.
[01:03:04]  It's the first time she woke up to the reality that.
[01:03:07]  That her team, because it is still her team, but her team that she's been promoting by her licentiousness, by her immorality, by all these things, that that team that she's been promoting and leading, all of a sudden she realized how heinous and how wicked, how much of bullies they actually, and it's a powerful revelation.

=== Recognizing the Bully Within Us (02:58) ===

[01:03:27]  Everybody, we all have this at some point of our life because it's called, if nothing else, it's called conversion, right?
[01:03:33]  So, right, you were once Ephesians 2, but you were like them.
[01:03:38]  At one point, you know, children of darkness and, you know, dead in your sins and trespasses.
[01:03:41]  And so we all have that moment where God wakes us up.
[01:03:45]  And I'm not saying Nikki Minaj, I'm not saying this was a conversion, but I'm just saying we all have that moment, for the Christian at least, where we wake up and we realize, because we thought, see, nobody is sitting in a corner.
[01:03:55]  I don't know, maybe Dr. Fauci, but other than him, nobody's sitting in a corner, you know, even Joe Biden, he's not sitting in a corner laughing maniacally.
[01:04:04]  He's sitting in a corner watching Matlock.
[01:04:05]  But, you know, nobody is just sitting in a corner, ha, ha, ha, ha, because nobody ever thinks they're the bad guy.
[01:04:12]  That's not right.
[01:04:13]  So, we grow up watching Disney movies and all this kind of, and everything's so black and white and plain.
[01:04:17]  You can tell who the bad guy is because he has, you know, he has a red face and funny horns.
[01:04:22]  And, you know, but in real life, everybody thinks they're on the right side of history.
[01:04:27]  Everybody thinks they're moral.
[01:04:28]  Everyone thinks they're the good guy.
[01:04:30]  And so, when God opens your eyes and you have that revelation of, oh my goodness, like I'm the bully, right?
[01:04:38]  Like, I don't know if you saw this.
[01:04:39]  So, on Netflix, I watch, you know, and I'm not endorsing Netflix, and I honestly feel guilty every time I pay for it.
[01:04:44]  And so, all my listeners who are judging me right now, I will probably eventually cancel my Netflix subscription.
[01:04:50]  Pray for me.
[01:04:51]  But one show that I really did like that I watched on it was the karate show from the Karate Kid that they remade, Cobra Kai.
[01:05:00]  And basically, it's like the thing that was so eye opening, and everybody's like, oh my gosh, you're right, is they took the two main characters from the movies, and now it's like 30 years later, and they're showing it from the viewpoint, from the perspective of the guy who in the original movies was the bully.
[01:05:19]  Um, that he was bullying uh Daniel's son.
[01:05:21]  Daniel's son, you know, was the hero and the good guy, and he just wanted to do what was right.
[01:05:25]  And there was this horrible bully that was always picking on him.
[01:05:28]  And now you're seeing it, he's all grown up, his life is a wreck, and you're seeing it from his perspective what happened.
[01:05:33]  And you and and and they're doing it through this lens of oh, maybe Daniel's son was actually the real bully, you know, maybe maybe Danny was a real bully.
[01:05:42]  And and so I say all that to say, you know, and everyone's having this whoa, that's that's deep, you know, about the Karate Kid, you know, and but but in real life.
[01:05:51]  In the land of the living, in reality, that happens all the time.
[01:05:55]  That each of us, it's called being humbled.
[01:05:58]  It's called being humbled.
[01:05:59]  That each of us, we come to recognize, I've been playing for the wrong team.
[01:06:04]  I've been talking about the bullies, the fascists, these conservatives, and then all of a sudden I realize I'm the bully.
[01:06:12]  I'm the one who is forcibly putting a mask on a two year old on a plane as he's screaming and crying and gasping for air.
[01:06:20]  I'm the one saying that fathers can't feed their kids and have to lose their job if they won't get.

=== The Lie of Necessity and Masks (15:26) ===

[01:06:25]  Them and their wife, and you know, injected with something that really, you know, the verdict's still out.
[01:06:32]  And so, all of a sudden, everybody has kind of that moment.
[01:06:35]  And I think for Nicki Minaj, that was her moment.
[01:06:38]  And I think she was truly shocked because I think it might be the first moment she's had where she realized I've been playing on the wrong team.
[01:06:44]  I was praying for her because I was like, wow, look, I saw a lot of conservatives go, oh, yeah, we just watched Nicki Minaj get red pilled right, you know, in real time.
[01:06:53]  And I'm thinking, like, what if she was actually being convert?
[01:06:56]  How much more amazing would it have been if she was being converted to Christ?
[01:06:59]  You know what I mean?
[01:07:00]  So, I do pray that, you know, again, just like a lot of black folks, whether they're African American or from another country and they came to America, a lot of us have some type of experience with the church or with the body.
[01:07:13]  I'm not saying it's correct and a lot, you know, a lot of times not, but there's something there.
[01:07:20]  There's a seed there.
[01:07:21]  And I just pray that the Lord would water that.
[01:07:23]  Amen.
[01:07:26]  God saved Nicki Minaj.
[01:07:27]  Amen.
[01:07:28]  That would be beautiful.
[01:07:29]  That'd be wonderful.
[01:07:30]  All right.
[01:07:30]  Last question, because I know we've been going long, but I, I think it's a good conversation.
[01:07:34]  I hope our listeners are blessed by it and any of your followers who tune into it.
[01:07:38]  But the last question that I just want to hear your thoughts on what do you think about Christians from a Christian ethical standpoint using a fake vaccine?
[01:07:48]  What do you think about that?
[01:07:50]  You mean like the passport, vaccine pass?
[01:07:52]  I mean, not passport.
[01:07:53]  Yeah, fake vaccine passport.
[01:07:55]  I'm sorry.
[01:07:55]  Yeah.
[01:07:57]  You know, I joked about it once.
[01:08:00]  I was, you know, when I was discerning, I was like, yeah, they're going to start making us get these vaccine cards and all this stuff.
[01:08:05]  I was like, all right, who's going to be doing it?
[01:08:06]  You know, but.
[01:08:07]  I honestly think we should stay away from them for sure.
[01:08:11]  I think there's a lot of reasons.
[01:08:12]  I mean, of course, it's not ethical.
[01:08:15]  And that's, of course, because two wrongs don't make a right, as they say.
[01:08:17]  We know that what they're doing is wrong, but we have to look at ultimately our need to, I guess, respectfully, civilly submit to our government.
[01:08:29]  And if we're going to deny getting vaccinated, then we just deny getting vaccinated.
[01:08:34]  And that's it.
[01:08:35]  And stand in it and trust the Lord in it.
[01:08:36]  I don't think we need to, you know, I think it undermines your purpose for getting, for rejecting or refusing the vaccine only to turn around and get the vaccine card.
[01:08:48]  It's just weird to me.
[01:08:49]  But one thing is that, I mean, I think we already know that we talked about Satan and how he has a hold on people who are unbelievers.
[01:08:56]  Ultimately, we know that he's already after us.
[01:09:00]  He's prowling around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he can devour.
[01:09:04]  So we don't want to put ourselves in a position that gives him any validity or any, we just don't want to give him that room to actually.
[01:09:12]  Say that he had just cause to arrest us or penalize us in any way because we had a fake vaccine card.
[01:09:19]  They're telling people at the outset that this is a federal offense.
[01:09:23]  So just leave it alone.
[01:09:24]  That's number one.
[01:09:25]  The second thing I think about it is that if we're going to disobey authorities, it has to be because we are trying to obey God.
[01:09:32]  And I don't see how having a fake vaccine passport helps us obey God.
[01:09:38]  Like it helps us get into a restaurant, go to the gym, you know, for those who may want to go to a bar or something, go to the bar.
[01:09:46]  Get on a plane or travel to certain countries or whatnot.
[01:09:48]  But, you know, and I understand that people are saying, people may say, well, what about churches that are required?
[01:09:53]  Well, first of all, if your church is requiring a vaccine card to get in, then they're automatically out of order.
[01:10:00]  So let's just, that's neither here nor there.
[01:10:03]  But, and then I'm just looking at fake vaccine cards is basically us acknowledging that we still are clinging to the world.
[01:10:13]  We want to still do what the world is doing.
[01:10:15]  We still, we're envying the world.
[01:10:17]  So we would be willing to lie.
[01:10:19]  Or cheat or steal in order to do that.
[01:10:22]  And I just think that undermines our witness.
[01:10:23]  And so I don't know.
[01:10:26]  And it's just also that human ingenuity and not the wisdom of God that would cause someone to get into that.
[01:10:31]  So I just think that that would be something we need to steer clear of.
[01:10:34]  If we're going to suffer for Christ's sake, then we need to suffer well.
[01:10:38]  And we need to trust the Lord to deliver us.
[01:10:40]  I mean, when Paul and, you know, when they were all arrested and everything, they, you know, they weren't going in and knocking out guards and all of that.
[01:10:51]  The Lord provided opportunities for them.
[01:10:53]  The Lord, and I guess that's my ultimate point, the Lord will give us opportunities to move around this thing.
[01:10:58]  One thing I noticed that was really interesting the other day, I was looking at footage of a fight outside of a New York restaurant, Carmine's, I think it is.
[01:11:05]  And then Black Lives Matter got involved and talked about how the restaurant was racist because the waitress checked vaccine cards and one of the cards faked or something like that.
[01:11:17]  And then, so now you're seeing these two things again, what we talked about earlier about how the ideologies are starting to kind of converge and they're opposing each other.
[01:11:28]  And I noticed, it clicked, I was like, the Lord tells us that.
[01:11:32]  He will fight for us.
[01:11:33]  We need only be still.
[01:11:35]  And I'm like, you know what?
[01:11:37]  The world is going to put things in play that will ultimately benefit us.
[01:11:41]  They may not realize it, but because the Lord, we are the Lord's and He's our refuge and He's protecting us, they are, you know, they're after each other.
[01:11:54]  The judgment against them is that they're fighting each other.
[01:11:57]  And then as they fight one another, for example, say Black Lives Matter, they protest the restaurant for being racist.
[01:12:03]  And so, The restaurant decides, you know what, I'm not going to implement this.
[01:12:06]  And for fear of being called racist, all the restaurants in New York say, you know what, I'm not going to implement this vaccine passport.
[01:12:13]  And then ultimately, the city lifts the requirement.
[01:12:15]  And then the next thing you know, so it could work out that way.
[01:12:18]  I think that's what I'm trying to say.
[01:12:19]  But my point is, I don't see the need to do that because we just need to check our motives like, exactly why do we want a fake vaccine card?
[01:12:30]  Like, is it to worship God?
[01:12:33]  And if so, and what I can't think of any way.
[01:12:36]  That a fake vaccine card would help us worship.
[01:12:39]  You know what I mean?
[01:12:39]  I just don't.
[01:12:41]  No, that's a really good point.
[01:12:42]  I need to get clear of it.
[01:12:44]  Go ahead.
[01:12:44]  I'm sorry.
[01:12:44]  Go ahead.
[01:12:45]  No, that's it.
[01:12:46]  I was just saying, I just think we need to stay away from that.
[01:12:48]  You know, I know it can be tempting.
[01:12:50]  You know, you know.
[01:12:52]  Yeah.
[01:12:53]  No, I think, yeah.
[01:12:53]  I think, so I think you made some really good points.
[01:12:55]  Number one, you're saying, first thing you should do is if you're thinking, even considering it, first, it's what do you want to do this for?
[01:13:03]  So if you want to get into a restaurant, that's just kind of dumb.
[01:13:08]  That's just this personal comfort and pleasure and convenience and all those kinds of things.
[01:13:13]  If you want to get a vaccine card to worship the Lord, then email me at joel at the rightresponse ministries.com and I will talk to you about finding a new church because you just need to leave.
[01:13:29]  So the only pushback that I would give is just, you know, it's like we're only not submitting to government.
[01:13:34]  You said we're only not submitting to government when.
[01:13:38]  When it would compromise us in obedience to God.
[01:13:40]  And the only example that I can think of is just a father in terms of provision.
[01:13:45]  Like there is a commandment for a father to provide, but I still agree with you in the sense that, you know, if everybody just fakes the vaccine card, how is that loving our neighbor?
[01:13:54]  Because that's still the promulgation of bearing false witness.
[01:13:57]  That's, you know, so because I love John Knox.
[01:14:00]  And so, you know, John Knox, the Scottish reformer, you know, he said that, you know, resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.
[01:14:07]  But getting a fake vaccine card is not actually resistance.
[01:14:12]  It's compliant.
[01:14:13]  It actually validates them.
[01:14:15]  It's saying these are your rules.
[01:14:18]  And so we are going to play by your rules in this way.
[01:14:23]  It's like a weird, it just is in a weird way.
[01:14:26]  It validates their requirement.
[01:14:27]  And I just think it's like, no, if you're not going to get it, you need to be right, stand in whatever it is you're going to do.
[01:14:34]  If they say you're going to lose your job, I actually just had that experience.
[01:14:37]  I got a call on Monday.
[01:14:39]  I went to, excuse me, I went to, Um, the office for my I teach, but it's like a contract kind of thing, so I went to the office to get some supplies for my classroom.
[01:14:49]  And when I'm in my car just getting myself situated, I get a call from the owner of the company and she goes, Hey, not sure if you heard, but the mayor is going to make an announcement soon that you have to be fully vaccinated by November 1st or you won't be able to go into the classroom.
[01:15:11]  And basically, that means I will basically lose my job.
[01:15:14]  And it's funny in that moment, I mean, I had just gotten engaged and my fiance and I are not.
[01:15:21]  That far into planning the wedding just yet is all new, but we know that that's something that we got to do.
[01:15:27]  And so I'm like, oh man, this is gonna like totally mess up my wedding plans.
[01:15:30]  And but I said, you know what?
[01:15:31]  You know, I understand if that's if that's something that has to be done, I get it because because I'm not getting vaccinated.
[01:15:37]  You know, I didn't say it in the with you know in a rude way, but my point was just like, this is I'm not doing this, so um, there has to be a workaround.
[01:15:45]  And by God's grace, oh God, it's so good.
[01:15:47]  I went back because my my boss unfortunately had just gotten the information from someone else and she was just trying to give me a heads up.
[01:15:55]  And I don't think she had a chance to read the order yet.
[01:15:57]  And I don't think the order was even out yet.
[01:15:59]  I don't know.
[01:16:00]  But I went back and I read the order.
[01:16:01]  And then they said, but if you have a religious or medical exemption, you can test out.
[01:16:06]  And I was like, praise the Lord.
[01:16:07]  You know, so there's an accommodation.
[01:16:10]  Of course, by law, they should provide that accommodation.
[01:16:13]  But the reality is, a lot of places are not offering those.
[01:16:16]  For some reason, they're not honoring those accommodations.
[01:16:19]  I don't know.
[01:16:20]  Everyone's just lost their minds, and the Constitution doesn't even matter anymore.
[01:16:24]  I don't even know.
[01:16:26]  I was telling people about what in 2017.
[01:16:28]  I said persecution is coming to America.
[01:16:30]  And ultimately, if people would pervert, when they found a way to make abortion constitutional and same sex marriage constitutional, a constitutionally protected right, I was like, you know what they can do?
[01:16:47]  If they would pervert God's word, because they do it every day, or the world does.
[01:16:52]  And if they would pervert God's word and just say that a man is a woman and a woman is a man, What is the Constitution like in their eyes?
[01:16:59]  Like, why, if they would pervert God's word, who, why do they care about what the founding fathers of America?
[01:17:05]  But for some reason, there are a lot of evangelical Christians, you know, patriotic Christians who really like put all this faith in the Constitution.
[01:17:15]  And I'm not saying that we should not speak up for what's right and what our laws say and what the true intent of them.
[01:17:22]  I'm not saying that.
[01:17:23]  But at some point, we really have to figure out like, are we going to trust the Lord or are we trusting him with something that man put into place?
[01:17:32]  And when they pervert this document so much that we no longer have the right to free speech and what else, what do we do then?
[01:17:42]  Are we just going to wage war on them?
[01:17:43]  Or are we going to, as far as physically speaking, or are we going to wage war spiritually and pray and seek the Lord and rely on one another as a church?
[01:17:52]  Like, I just question those kinds of things.
[01:17:54]  I would be okay with both.
[01:17:58]  I personally, I don't know if I would be out there, you know.
[01:18:02]  You don't have to agree.
[01:18:04]  I would, though.
[01:18:05]  I think, you know, but you're absolutely right.
[01:18:08]  I like the point that you made that if they're willing to, we should not be surprised, is what you're saying.
[01:18:12]  That we shouldn't be surprised that the world, who John chapter 8, you know, children of the devil, who are going to pervert the word of God, and then we're shocked when they don't honor the Constitution.
[01:18:23]  Why are we shocked?
[01:18:25]  Yeah.
[01:18:25]  So that's a really good point.
[01:18:27]  Yeah, Joe Biden.
[01:18:29]  He told us he doesn't care.
[01:18:30]  He made it very clear.
[01:18:32]  Oh, this guy.
[01:18:32]  He made it very clear.
[01:18:34]  Pray for me with that one.
[01:18:35]  Woo!
[01:18:39]  Woo!
[01:18:39]  So, great response.
[01:18:41]  I like what you're saying.
[01:18:42]  For me, I think the thing that was, you know, I've thought about it some, but just hearing you say it again was good for me just to think, you know, one of the points you made that I thought was my favorite was just that we're missing, if we really do think that we need to take a stand here, we're missing our opportunity to resist if we're getting a fake vaccine card.
[01:19:04]  That's actually being complicit.
[01:19:05]  That's not actually resisting.
[01:19:07]  I think that that's really helpful.
[01:19:08]  I personally think that there are maybe some instances, I won't go into it, I'm not going to bore you, but I do think that there are some instances.
[01:19:14]  I got a friend who he's, He's already got his fake vaccine card guy.
[01:19:19]  So if you need a guy, if you need a guy.
[01:19:22]  So I do actually think that a biblical argument could be made, but I think it's few and far between.
[01:19:27]  And I think the ideal is that that would be on a list of steps.
[01:19:34]  That would be like step 14.
[01:19:36]  And I think there is a step 14.
[01:19:38]  I think it's rare, but I think it exists.
[01:19:40]  Even for the Christian.
[01:19:42]  But I think the first is take a stand.
[01:19:45]  Rahab hiding spies, maybe?
[01:19:47]  Right.
[01:19:47]  Yeah.
[01:19:47]  I don't think that's the idea.
[01:19:50]  The Egyptian midwives, right?
[01:19:52]  The Hebrew women, man, they just give birth too quickly.
[01:19:55]  No, they didn't.
[01:19:55]  You were there.
[01:19:57]  But what does it say?
[01:19:58]  The Egyptian midwives, it says they feared God.
[01:20:01]  Yeah.
[01:20:01]  Because they knew that it was a wrongful.
[01:20:03]  Yeah.
[01:20:03]  But see, yeah, so I'm protecting the spies who were doing a service to God or for God.
[01:20:11]  And she acknowledged that.
[01:20:13]  And so I think, again, it just goes back to what is your purpose?
[01:20:16]  What are you trying to get done?
[01:20:18]  What are you trying to do?
[01:20:19]  And here's the thing it's like, And this is what's been so hard for the last 18 months is like, all right, we got to know the scripture.
[01:20:25]  You got to know the scripture.
[01:20:27]  But in order to use the scripture scripturally, you have to also know you need to have a good anthropology, but the scripture gives you that.
[01:20:37]  But you need to know what's going on.
[01:20:39]  So, with all the COVID stuff, it's like part of what's been so hard for me as a pastor is I realized, okay, I know the Bible and I always want to be growing in my knowledge of the Bible.
[01:20:48]  But then all of a sudden, I felt like, but now all of a sudden, I need to be an epidemiologist and I need to know all the stats about COVID.
[01:20:54]  And And I need to know all this.
[01:20:56]  I need to have, like, be, you know, a professional in constitutional theory and, you know, and constitutional law because I need, so I need to know the Constitution.
[01:21:05]  Now, this I should have known more of, and I was convicted over the last 18 months.
[01:21:08]  I should have known more about our nation, our history, our laws, the Constitution.
[01:21:12]  And so I've been playing catch up for 18 months, and by God's grace, I've grown and understand the Constitution.
[01:21:16]  But even with this second piece, COVID, my point is this.
[01:21:20]  So the Egyptian midwives, you know, they're lying, but it's because it's, It's the Bible condones and says out of a fear of God.
[01:21:30]  So it's a righteous lie.
[01:21:31]  It's the lie of necessity.
[01:21:32]  There's a whole doctrine on that.
[01:21:34]  R.C. Sproul talks about it a little bit, you know, the lie of necessity.
[01:21:36]  But the point is, what makes it a lie of necessity and what makes it fear of God is it the lives of these babies are at risk.
[01:21:46]  And so that's where you got to know that second piece, the stats with COVID, but not just with COVID, but with the vaccine.

=== Righteous Lies for Baby Safety (10:47) ===

[01:21:52]  So what I would say is, if there is a Christian who, in their conscience, like they've been researching the vaccine and Protein spikes and altering DNA, because these aren't your average vaccines.
[01:22:06]  There's some new stuff with it.
[01:22:08]  And if they're looking into the vaccines and they're looking into the risk and all these kind of things, and they've determined, I think that for me and my family, let's say they have a teenager, 13 year old, and they're saying, all right, the data is if my 13 year old gets COVID, they're fine.
[01:22:24]  But if they get this vaccine, the vaccine is actually 3.7 times more dangerous that there'd be a serious.
[01:22:32]  Altercation with the vaccine than if they got COVID.
[01:22:34]  So, I actually, as a father, I have a responsibility over my wife and my children to protect their physical safety.
[01:22:41]  And I need to make wise decisions.
[01:22:43]  And, you know, so anyway, so my point is if they start mandating, you know, 13 year old mandated has to get the vaccine to go to school, which that's kind of coming down the line.
[01:22:52]  As a father, I might say, well, first, I wouldn't send my kid to public school.
[01:22:57]  But, you know, let's just say, you know, it gets mandated.
[01:23:01]  Then that would be one of those instances where I would first resist.
[01:23:04]  And if I couldn't resist successfully, that might be an instance where I would be like, All right, I've gone through all these steps.
[01:23:13]  I've tried to honor, I've tried to do this.
[01:23:15]  And now I think I'm in a Rahab situation.
[01:23:18]  I'm going to call my friend's vaccine card guy.
[01:23:21]  I think it's one of those things with like, What's to help me obey God, like rather than men?
[01:23:26]  Like, I think it's like, I think if I phrase it that way, it helps me better reconcile what I'm doing because I don't think there's such a thing as wrongdoing.
[01:23:36]  Unless the wrongdoing ultimately causes you to sin against God, if that makes any sense.
[01:23:40]  You know what I mean?
[01:23:40]  So, like you talked about the Egyptian women when, who was it, Pharaohs, like, oh yeah, kill all the Hebrew women.
[01:23:47]  So, it's like, yeah, that's going to cause me to disobey God.
[01:23:50]  So, I can't obey you.
[01:23:52]  So, I wouldn't necessarily, I would not phrase that as a lie.
[01:23:56]  I think I just, for me, just to make myself feel good.
[01:24:00]  No, you're right.
[01:24:01]  You're right.
[01:24:02]  If it has caused me to sin against God, if it's just like, oh, this, Random human being asked me to do something that is totally immoral.
[01:24:11]  And in order for me to get around it, I got to do this, you know, that I undergot.
[01:24:15]  Then, like, for example, with underground churches or attending church even as they exactly, you know, I was all about that.
[01:24:21]  Like, I still am.
[01:24:22]  Last summer, I'm like, so nobody cares what they're talking about.
[01:24:25]  Let's go.
[01:24:26]  Let's go to church.
[01:24:27]  Like, what do you mean?
[01:24:28]  Because I feel like the Lord will honor that because we're ultimately going to honor Him to obey a command that He.
[01:24:39]  Like he explicitly gave, at least in Hebrews, like we have to gather.
[01:24:44]  And so I trust that the Lord will protect us.
[01:24:47]  And even just like with, I don't know, Daniel, I think it was his, I think it was Shadrach Meshach and Abednego.
[01:24:53]  Even if he doesn't.
[01:24:53]  Even if he doesn't, right?
[01:24:55]  Even if he doesn't.
[01:24:56]  And same thing with COVID.
[01:24:57]  Like I spoke earlier about, like, you know, the disease is not that serious for most people.
[01:25:02]  I trust my immune system.
[01:25:03]  But even if when I got it, it led to my death, I was, I mean, I don't have a death wish or anything like that.
[01:25:11]  I'm not, you know, morbid, you know, I don't have that kind of, but I understand that the Lord is sovereign.
[01:25:18]  And my days are my last day on earth is what this is going to be.
[01:25:22]  There's nothing that I can do.
[01:25:23]  I'm not saying to be reckless, because at that point, you're testing the Lord, but I trust God in that whenever it's my time to go out of here, it's my time to go out of here.
[01:25:33]  So I can't live in fear.
[01:25:36]  I think there's a place for taking reasonable precautions for things.
[01:25:40]  Wash your hands.
[01:25:45]  I'm not even really big on the whole social distance thing.
[01:25:47]  I was telling people, if you're okay with me giving you a hug, I'll give you a hug.
[01:25:50]  I mean, how do we give a holy kiss?
[01:25:52]  And it says it over and over and over the holy kiss, you got to do something.
[01:25:55]  I got to be near you, you know?
[01:25:56]  So, but, you know, washing your hands and whatever else, whatever.
[01:26:01]  I'm cool with that.
[01:26:01]  But from the very beginning, I'm just like, this thing is something that doesn't sound like it's much that we can do to control it.
[01:26:07]  So why not just continue to live, trust the Lord?
[01:26:11]  And if, you know, like they say, if I die, I don't want to say it like that.
[01:26:15]  No, no, I know what you're saying.
[01:26:17]  Yeah, amen.
[01:26:17]  God is sovereign.
[01:26:19]  And the funny thing about COVID is that last year they were scaring us half to death around the holidays.
[01:26:24]  I feel like they're going to do it again this year.
[01:26:26]  And I'm from Atlanta, and I, you know, up until the top of the year, I was single and I live alone.
[01:26:31]  I had a dog, and I'm in this house for months on end alone because churches aren't meeting.
[01:26:38]  No one really, you know, wants to come over out of feet, you know.
[01:26:40]  So I'm just like, so I went home.
[01:26:43]  I'm thank God.
[01:26:44]  Guy, I feel like when the Lord talks about giving us a way of escape, I see these little graces that He gives us.
[01:26:49]  When you had Gavin Newsom with his French laundry situation, and then you had the mayor of Chicago with her little going to some kind of I don't know, rally.
[01:26:58]  And then the barber.
[01:26:59]  Yeah.
[01:27:00]  Our own mayor and Nancy Pelosi.
[01:27:02]  Yeah.
[01:27:03]  Yeah.
[01:27:03]  Nancy Pelosi, get on and get her hair done.
[01:27:04]  Like they kept doing it.
[01:27:06]  I was like, rules for thee.
[01:27:07]  But oh, no, no, I'm going home.
[01:27:09]  And I'm so glad I did it because I didn't get COVID until like very recently.
[01:27:13]  Like very recently.
[01:27:14]  I mean, I'm not good ways out at this point.
[01:27:17]  But imagine if I didn't go home and visit my family for Thanksgiving and Christmas and because I'm fearing something, whatever.
[01:27:26]  I just thought about that.
[01:27:26]  So we just have to live our lives.
[01:27:28]  I think there's a way to do it with wisdom.
[01:27:31]  And I don't think it's reckless.
[01:27:33]  I always tell people, I don't think it's reckless and I don't think it's sin.
[01:27:36]  Of course not to trust God.
[01:27:38]  And so if that means I'm going to church and you can spread the virus, I can spread it at Walmart, dear.
[01:27:44]  That's right.
[01:27:45]  And Walmart is wide open.
[01:27:46]  So I just feel like I actually had a moment where I was very much dejected and I was probably bitter with a lot of believers after last year.
[01:28:00]  But I'm so grateful to God that I've seen.
[01:28:03]  And this doesn't mean that I've not had to grow as well, but I'm so grateful to see that so many people have figured it out.
[01:28:08]  Like, oh, yeah, this is, you know, not necessarily the virus is a farce, but even though it might have been adopted in the lab, there was a refresher, you know, but whatever it is, they're using this, they're taking every opportunity to push the world into submission.
[01:28:30]  And, you know, the next thing is going to be, I read something earlier about climate change.
[01:28:33]  I think Al Gore came out and said something recently.
[01:28:36]  About climate change and how we need to take drastic and rapid action.
[01:28:40]  I'm like, oh, they're going to try to shut down the world again, Lord.
[01:28:43]  So I just pray that the saints, that the church overall is just ready for what's coming and that we will be faithful, that we will stand strong, and that we will suffer well because I don't see, I think we'll have little moments of like, I want to say reprieve, but definitely moments where it won't be as hostile.
[01:29:02]  But I don't see things getting, I don't think things are going back to normal, to be honest.
[01:29:07]  I don't see that.
[01:29:09]  It would be great.
[01:29:11]  I would love to be wrong about this.
[01:29:12]  I trust me.
[01:29:13]  I mean, like, I'm getting married soon, so I would love for things to be back to normal, but I don't see it.
[01:29:23]  But I trust that God would allow us to have joy and peace even in the midst of it, though.
[01:29:28]  And I do pray that we have that.
[01:29:29]  So, yeah.
[01:29:31]  Amen.
[01:29:32]  I'm in the post mill camp, so I do think things are going to get better.
[01:29:36]  But here's the thing about post mills.
[01:29:39]  We think that things are going to get better, but it could be 40,000 years.
[01:29:42]  So, you know, I believe that I believe the church is militant and triumphant and is only increasing and only growing.
[01:29:49]  And, but just like stocks, you know, it's not always this gradual incline.
[01:29:52]  There are dips along the way, but nothing in post mill theology, you know, and that eschatology says that America is going to make it.
[01:29:59]  Just the church is going, you know, I will build my church in the gates of hell.
[01:30:03]  But it may be, God may see fit in his providence and his sovereignty and wisdom and love.
[01:30:09]  He may see fit that what is, Everything he does is for his glory and for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purposes.
[01:30:15]  God may know that in his sovereignty, that what is for our good, the good of the church, is for America to eventually implode or to have a civil war.
[01:30:24]  I would argue that right now we are in, you know, like the Cold War between America and Russia.
[01:30:28]  I would say we are in a cold civil war right now.
[01:30:31]  And that may turn into an actual civil war in America.
[01:30:35]  And in which case, I'm really glad that I moved from California to Texas.
[01:30:38]  So I feel like I'll be safer, you know.
[01:30:41]  But you're right.
[01:30:42]  The point is, we don't know what's going to happen circumstantially.
[01:30:46]  The secret things belong to the Lord, right?
[01:30:48]  His sovereign will, His providence.
[01:30:51]  But those things which He has revealed belong to us and our children.
[01:30:55]  Forever, and what we know is that we win, and even if you're pre mill, you know, I know Daryl and Virgil, you know, like you know, even if you're pre mill, we still both, both of us post mill, pre mill, all mill, we all believe that we win.
[01:31:06]  We just we differ on how we win, how we win, you know, exactly.
[01:31:11]  You know, I always say the pre mill says that uh, that we win because Christ wins and Christ wins despite the church, and I say the post mill says we win because Christ wins and Christ wins with the church, and the church is the battering ram that he uses to ram up against the gates of hell.
[01:31:26]  That's my opinion, but either way, we all believe.
[01:31:28]  That we're going to win because Christ is victorious.
[01:31:31]  And you're right.
[01:31:33]  We need to be bold.
[01:31:34]  We need to be courageous.
[01:31:35]  We need to resist wherever it's required to love God and to love our neighbor.
[01:31:40]  But we also need, I like what you said, we need to learn to suffer well.
[01:31:43]  And I think right now, that's good for us to hear because I think a lot of Christians, we went from being scared, a bunch of people got pruned, you know, but then there's a remnant that's, and the remnant, I'm encouraged to see a growth in, you know, courage, growth in bravery, growth in all these things, this increase.
[01:32:01]  But with that, sometimes can come.
[01:32:03]  Arrogance, rebellion, just for the sake of rebelling.
[01:32:06]  And so I do think we need to remember that, like, yes, we want to resist.
[01:32:09]  Yes, we want to be strong and courageous.
[01:32:12]  But the blood of the martyrs is the seedbed of the church.
[01:32:15]  One of the ways that we win at times is by getting the crap kicked out of us and taking it well.
[01:32:23]  Yeah.
[01:32:23]  You know?
[01:32:23]  Yeah.
[01:32:24]  So, yeah.
[01:32:25]  But everything, all that's fantastic.
[01:32:27]  I'm so honored to have you on the show, Constance.
[01:32:29]  It's been my privilege.
[01:32:31]  I hope you've enjoyed it.
[01:32:33]  I hope our listeners have enjoyed it.
[01:32:35]  Can you?
[01:32:35]  I'll give you the final word.
[01:32:36]  Tell our listeners how they can follow your ministry and keep up with what you're doing.

=== Closing with Blessings and Offers (01:26) ===

[01:32:40]  Sure, yeah.
[01:32:41]  So they can follow me at, I was going to say www, but I don't think you can say that anymore.
[01:32:45]  It's not cool.
[01:32:47]  At truthandfire.com.
[01:32:49]  That's the blog.
[01:32:50]  You can also get the podcast there.
[01:32:53]  The podcast is on Spotify.
[01:32:56]  Was it Apple?
[01:32:58]  Was it iTunes?
[01:32:59]  iTunes.
[01:33:00]  I don't know.
[01:33:01]  I get confused, but yeah, on one of those things.
[01:33:04]  But anyway, it's wherever you get your podcasts there.
[01:33:08]  Um, and then as far as social media, I'm pretty much on Twitter and Instagram.
[01:33:11]  I had a Facebook page, but I don't know.
[01:33:13]  But I'm on social media, I'm Verite et Feu, which means Truth and Fire in French.
[01:33:18]  That's V E R I T E E T F E U. Um, and so, but I really would encourage everyone to follow me on truthandfire.com because that's where everything is being moved and where a lot of our um information will be coming from very soon.
[01:33:32]  So, um, yeah, yeah, so thank you.
[01:33:35]  Great.
[01:33:35]  Well, thanks so much for coming on and God bless.
[01:33:38]  Thank you so much.
[01:33:40]  As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.
[01:33:46]  To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.comslash offer.
[01:33:51]  We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?
[01:33:54]  If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God, this would be a great resource.
[01:34:00]  As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.comslash offer.
[01:34:05]  And thank you for your generous support.