NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - The Nephilim’s Relevance For Christians Today Aired: 2021-09-08 Duration: 34:17 === Spiritual Battle and the Gospel (14:59) === [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to Theology Applied. [00:00:05] In this episode, I was privileged to interview two special guests, Joshua Lewis and Michael Rowntree, the co host of Remnant Radio. [00:00:13] Now, this is part two of a two part series on the Nephilim, the sons of God, and the relevancy of the Nephilim and sons of God for Christians today. [00:00:24] In part one, we really delved into the question of who are the Nephilim and who are the sons of God? [00:00:30] In part two, which is what you're listening to now, we deal with the question of the Nephilim and the sons of God's relevancy and application for today's Christians. [00:00:41] Thanks for tuning in. [00:00:43] Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. [00:00:46] This is Theology Applied. [00:00:52] So let's land the plane with this and go ahead and get that final thought in there. [00:00:57] But real quick, get your final thought. [00:00:58] But then if you guys can help me land the plane with this. [00:01:02] So, what does this mean for us today? [00:01:04] What's the relevancy? [00:01:04] Yeah, and that's because that for me would be the final thought. [00:01:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was exactly where I was. [00:01:08] Okay, good. [00:01:09] Uh, with I was gonna pull up Deuteronomy 32, I think this is my kind of pulling point. [00:01:14] And we Joel might not agree with this, so I'm gonna let him kind of speak to that here in a second. [00:01:19] But in Joel, uh, Joel, Joel, Deuteronomy 32, verse 8 says, When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, he divided the number, uh, he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the people according to the number of the sons of God. [00:01:32] Here in this passage in Deuteronomy 32, when did God divide the nations? [00:01:36] He divided the nations of the Tower of Babel. [00:01:38] Well, here in this passage, he says he numbered those nations, gave them divided tongues according to the number of the sons of God. [00:01:45] Now, we've already discussed what ben Elohim, sons of God, means in every other place of the Bible. [00:01:51] My natural reading of this is informed by Daniel chapter 10, when there was a prince of Persia who was sent to resist a messenger, Gabriel, to deliver a message to Daniel. [00:02:02] Michael was released, they kicked the butt of the prince of Persia, and then they came. [00:02:06] It seems as if there was a principality, a spiritual being who's ruling over the region of Persia. [00:02:12] Persia, a Ben Elohim, if you will. [00:02:15] And they were not doing righteous by the Lord. [00:02:17] They're actually trying to prevent and thwart God's plans. [00:02:20] But here in this text, what we see is that he divided them. [00:02:23] So all these fallen angels, fallen entities that are ruling and warring against the plans and purposes of God have been made subject in Christ. [00:02:32] And I think that these passages constantly remind us and affirm to us is there a spiritual warfare? [00:02:37] Absolutely. [00:02:38] But Christ has defeated them. [00:02:40] They're held under in chains that we have confidence. [00:02:43] Is there a supernatural worldview? [00:02:45] Is there a spiritual worldview? [00:02:46] Absolutely. [00:02:47] Can they affect us? [00:02:48] Can they hurt us? [00:02:49] Can they harm us? [00:02:50] Absolutely, they can. [00:02:51] But our confidence is not wrestling against this flesh and blood here, right? [00:02:56] We preach the gospel. [00:02:58] We push back the kingdom of darkness through the preaching and teaching of the gospel. [00:03:02] And that's the application point is that we place our faith and our trust in Christ in the midst of a spiritual tumultuous world. [00:03:09] Yeah, absolutely. [00:03:10] And I would have a few kind of closing points, maybe to build on that one. [00:03:14] It appears, and many commentators note this, that The story of what happened on Pentecost is meant to be an inversion of what happened on Babel. [00:03:22] And in fact, to take it back to the very beginning, where God says, Be fruitful and multiply and scatter across the face of the earth, their mission was to make the earth look more like God. [00:03:32] And that's what their role was as image bearers. [00:03:35] And of course, they failed at that. [00:03:36] And Genesis 11 is one of those instances because rather than scattering, they gathered together. [00:03:42] Rather than making God's name great, they wanted to make a name for themselves. [00:03:46] And so God judges them in Genesis chapter 11. [00:03:51] And he scatters them with a judgment of tongues. [00:03:54] Now they come and fast forward, Acts chapter two, they all come together into one place. [00:04:01] They receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. [00:04:04] And once again, they're sent back out. [00:04:07] You'll receive my power. [00:04:08] You'll be my witnesses in Jerusalem, GDS, Samaria, and all these places. [00:04:10] Pentecost is the reversal of the Bible. [00:04:12] Right. [00:04:13] So, where you have a judgment centered around tongues, now you have a blessing centered around tongues. [00:04:19] And so now God's going to preach the gospel in all of these nations that he once scattered. [00:04:25] Back in Genesis 11 is the scattering, but technically, Genesis 10 chronologically could have fallen after Genesis 11 or would have chronologically, but the way that the author of Genesis had a different purpose in putting it first. [00:04:41] But the point is that the table of nations in Genesis chapter 10 matches, and scholars have pointed this out, matches the same regions that Luke describes when people heard the tongues in their own languages. [00:04:52] My point in saying all of that is to just accentuate what Josh is saying. [00:04:58] That now is our role as spirit empowered Christians to preach the gospel and to be his witnesses to the ends of the earth. [00:05:06] It's a restored great commission from Genesis chapter one. [00:05:09] Only now it's not just be fruitful and multiply. [00:05:11] Now it's go and make disciples. [00:05:14] And as we do so, we dispel or displace these principalities and powers. [00:05:21] So if in Daniel 10, you had a prince of Persia and a prince of Greece, these sort of ruling evil angelic beings. [00:05:29] Over certain locations and geographical territories. [00:05:32] Now, as we preach the gospel and we go forth, we push these principalities and powers back, not by doing what some radical charismatics do, like I cast down the spirit of such and such over Dallas, Fort Worth, or something like that. [00:05:47] No, it's in the preaching of the gospel, just as in Luke chapter 10, Jesus sends the disciples out and they preach into the various cities, and there's 70 or 72, depending on your translation. [00:06:01] Disciples sent out, and when they do, they come back and say, Hey, the demons are subject to us. [00:06:05] And one of the things Jesus says in that context is, I saw Satan fall like lightning. [00:06:11] And probably what he's saying here, and this is there's some debate over this, but they've just said the demons are subject to us. [00:06:19] Jesus isn't referring to some primordial fall of Satan, where like, oh, yeah, Satan fell from heaven thousands of years ago, or however long ago it was. [00:06:28] He's not talking about that. [00:06:29] He's talking about it in the context of them preaching the gospel. [00:06:33] And so, probably he is referring to the fact that, like, in the preaching of the gospel, Satan was displaced from his foothold over some region. [00:06:45] And Satan is not omnipresent. [00:06:48] That's right. [00:06:48] And so, praise God. [00:06:50] Yeah. [00:06:50] And I think it's the church in Pergamum where he says, I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. [00:06:55] So, as Jesus sends the disciples out, they're preaching the gospel, they're preaching the kingdom, the reign of Christ. [00:07:03] As they preach the gospel of Christ's reign, They displace Satan's footprint in that area. [00:07:09] And that is now our commission, we're empowered by the Spirit to preach the good news. [00:07:14] So completely down for that. [00:07:15] I love that. [00:07:15] I think that's great. [00:07:16] The only thing I would add to that is I think that the first wave attack was the life, the death, and resurrection of Christ. [00:07:26] That the biggest blow was in the word that Christ himself has bound the strong man. [00:07:32] And now we're going. [00:07:34] To the forces of the enemy, to the forces of Satan, has already been inflicted by Christ, that he's already been significantly weakened in his ability to deceive the nations, to torment, to do all these kinds of things. [00:07:49] And now we're going, and it's almost like Jonathan and his armor bearer. [00:07:56] Jonathan's fighting with the sword, and his armor bearer is following up the kill. [00:08:00] So, Jonathan knocks someone to the ground, and his armor bearer stabs them in the throat and lays the death blow so that they can't get back up. [00:08:10] And so, I feel like that's, in many ways, what Christ has done in his earthly ministry, he's bound the strong man who is Satan himself, dealt a crippling blow. [00:08:21] To all of his enemies, and then is sending his church, which is a weapon. [00:08:26] So, like Christ says, I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. [00:08:30] We always think that the church is like this poor little thing on the ropes, you know, just getting knocked back and forth. [00:08:37] But, you know, Satan's ultimately not going to prevail because Christ is going to protect us. [00:08:40] No, like, the picture is that the gates are a defensive weapon. [00:08:44] So, hell is on the defense. [00:08:46] The gates of hell won't be able to withstand the battering ram of the church because. [00:08:52] The initial siege is by Christ Himself, and now the church is at the door with the battering ram ramming down the gates, and ultimately, hell will not be able to prevail. [00:09:03] So, we're pushing back darkness, expanding the kingdom of light. [00:09:06] And the final application that I see from this whole idea of the sons of God being actual fallen angels, actually having sex with human women, actually perverting the biological, attempting well, not attempting, but succeeding in perverting the biological line of human women and attempting. [00:09:26] To snuff out the seed of Christ, but unsuccessful. [00:09:31] And the Nephilim being, whether them being the hybrid offspring of these fallen angels or still giant men of renown who inflicted mass actions of violence. [00:09:43] The point in all of this that I want to make is that applies to us today is that we are not Gnostics. [00:09:49] And so, what I mean by that is so, Ephesians, you know, Michael, you already quoted this, but I think, or Josh, maybe you did, but Ephesians 6. [00:09:56] I hear Christians quote this all the time, and it's good, but Ephesians 6, verse 12, for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers, this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. [00:10:12] And so you hear Christians all the time, I think, one of the excuses that Christians make in not getting involved in culture, just surrendering the arts, you know, to secular society, surrendering education, surrendering not getting involved in culture, not getting involved in politics, and especially. [00:10:31] Local politics. [00:10:32] I think there's this Gnostic mentality that we're going to pray away the kingdom of darkness because our weapons are not carnal. [00:10:40] They're not fleshly, but they're spiritual, and our warfare is spiritual, and our enemy is spiritual. [00:10:46] But if you take Ephesians 6 12 and you cross reference that with 2 Timothy 2, verses 25 and 26, it says, or starting at 24, the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. [00:11:05] Because God may perhaps grant to them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth. [00:11:10] Now, verse 26, this is 2 Timothy 2 26. [00:11:14] And they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after having been captured by him to do his will. [00:11:22] So, our battle is not with flesh and blood. [00:11:26] The devil is our ultimate enemy, he is ultimately spiritual principalities, but the devil captures flesh and blood. [00:11:35] To do his will, and so that doesn't mean that we should take up literal swords and kill the infidel. [00:11:41] I'm certainly not saying that. [00:11:42] But what I'm saying is that this spiritual battle has carnal, real, physical manifestations. [00:11:51] The devil takes people captive. [00:11:54] Now, we need to correct our opponents, our human people components, our neighbors with gentleness, just like Paul says to Timothy, because we don't know. [00:12:03] God may grant them repentance. [00:12:05] But the point is that these people, our opponents, they've been captured by Satan. [00:12:10] Jesus uses the same language in John chapter 8 your father is the devil. [00:12:14] He's talking to people. [00:12:16] And in Genesis chapter 6, sons of God, fallen angels procreating with people and producing offspring, perhaps, or Nephilim, either way, people. [00:12:26] And so, my whole point is to say it's a spiritual battle. [00:12:29] We wage this battle with spiritual weapons. [00:12:33] But these evil spirits that we're at war with, they want this world. [00:12:39] They care about this world. [00:12:40] So, why don't Christians? [00:12:44] And sons of God and fallen angels and Nephilim and whatever, it seems like all these spirituals and the Prince of Persia, the Prince of Persia cares about Persia, but Christians don't. [00:12:54] And so the Christian today who would say, well, America, you know, whatever, and I'm not, you know, no, that's not how the enemy thinks. [00:13:01] The enemy is not Gnostic. [00:13:03] The enemy is not content to just play around up in the heavens in the spiritual realm. [00:13:07] He is using all his spiritual powers to have physical implications, applications here on earth. [00:13:14] And we too, even though our ultimate enemy is spiritual and our weaponry is ultimately spiritual, Spiritual, the way that we fight is not just with fasting and prayer and spiritual seances. [00:13:26] No, the way that we fight is by speaking spiritual truths to people who have been taken captive by a spiritual enemy. [00:13:35] And we do this with courage and also gentleness because God might grant repentance. [00:13:40] And I would just, that would be my. [00:13:42] I think of the Apostle Paul as a weapon. [00:13:44] I think the Apostle Paul is a weapon. [00:13:45] And because of what happened at the cross, the Apostle Paul was a weapon in the hand of the enemy and the enemy was disarmed. [00:13:52] Of the apostle Paul at the cross. [00:13:56] Right. [00:13:57] So when you think of that like that, like, hey, we're not fighting against flesh and blood. [00:14:00] We're fighting against these principal, super spiritual principalities. [00:14:03] Oh, yeah. [00:14:03] And Christ disarmed them. [00:14:05] Yeah. [00:14:05] But these principalities that look like human flesh that are beating the trash out of me, like, they really look like flesh. [00:14:11] Right. [00:14:12] But when the gospel is preached, their hearts are converted, they're transferred out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. [00:14:18] We're presenting ourselves as instruments unto God and not instruments unto the devil. [00:14:23] The instrument language is. [00:14:25] This weapon war like language. [00:14:27] Um, so I think of the Apostle Paul, he was disarmed, the enemy had the Apostle Paul as a weapon they used, and he was disarmed. [00:14:36] And now he's working for the kingdom of God. [00:14:39] Joel, I have one more little application I could make really quick here if you want. [00:14:42] Go ahead. [00:14:43] Okay. [00:14:44] Um, so this is Michael Heiser, and some of the stuff we were sharing, uh, a lot of it was from the unseen realm. [00:14:50] Uh, Michael Heiser has kind of popularized a lot of this, uh, kind of refreshed interest in the Nephilim and things of that nature, but um. [00:14:57] It's a very good book, Unseen Realm. === Progressive Revelation of Truth (11:49) === [00:15:00] But here's what Dr. Heiser says. [00:15:02] He says the Babylonian elite taught that the divine knowledge of the Apkalas, divine sages, great culture war heroes like Gilgamesh, he says they had survived the flood through a succeeding post flood generation of these giant quasi divine beings. [00:15:20] So he's talking about what the Babylonians believe, what their writings taught. [00:15:25] So their writings taught that these giant people survived the flood, is what they taught. [00:15:30] And the biblical writers took what the Babylonians thought was proof of their own divine heritage and told a different story. [00:15:37] In other words, the Babylonians are like, hey, the reason we're Babylon, the reason we're so awesome is because we descended from these giants. [00:15:45] We're great. [00:15:46] Okay. [00:15:47] And so here's Heiser commenting on that. [00:15:50] He says the biblical writers told a different story. [00:15:52] Yes, there were giants, renowned men, both before and after the flood, but those offspring and their knowledge were not of the true God. [00:15:59] They were a result. [00:16:00] They were the result of rebellion against Yahweh by lesser divine beings. [00:16:04] Genesis 6, 1 4, along with 2 Peter and Jude, portrays Babylon's boast as a horrific transgression and, even worse, the catalyst that spread corruption throughout humankind. [00:16:18] So, a couple of things on that. [00:16:20] First of all, why is this important? [00:16:23] You have three falls, three strikes, and you're out for humanity Genesis chapter 3, the fall of man. [00:16:29] You have Genesis 6, the story we just told, and then Genesis 11, the Tower of Babel. [00:16:34] And these all, all three of these, like if we just say, well, we can't figure out Genesis 6, so who cares about that? [00:16:40] Let's just talk about the other two. [00:16:42] We're really missing what the author of Genesis Moses is trying to communicate here. [00:16:47] He's saying, like, humanity has struck out three times. [00:16:51] And so he's going to start over in Genesis 12 with Abram. [00:16:54] So that's part of it. [00:16:56] The other thing I want to focus on is he says, even worse, the catalyst that spread corruption throughout humankind is that part of what's happening here, in my estimation, my reading of it, Is that, and I've studied a whole lot on Revelation, so I see this more there, but it kind of builds on this Genesis 6 story in part. [00:17:16] And is that the biblical authors are explaining the problem of evil? [00:17:21] They're not just dunking on Babylon, that's part of it, but they're actually explaining why there is such evil. [00:17:26] And when we talk about our battle isn't against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, the authorities, the powers of this dark world, this is just a really important thing. [00:17:34] It's important because there is some evil that just can't be explained by psychology. [00:17:39] Like, how can a person torture his children? [00:17:41] How can Adolf Hitler do what he does? [00:17:44] I mean, some things are so demented that the secular worldview is utterly without the capacity to explain the level of dementedness that humanity enters into. [00:17:56] I mean, you read the news, you don't have to have me name more examples, but actually having an explanation for this, but then further than that, having the explanation that Christ. [00:18:09] Disarmed the story behind the story, the evil behind the evil, disarmed those powers at the cross, and then is coming again to remove them entirely. [00:18:19] It kind of just gives us a story to explain why there's all this mess in this world, to give us a contributing piece and actually finishing the task, so to speak. [00:18:32] I mean, Jesus is going to finish it, but giving us a role in this. [00:18:36] But explaining the story behind the story for evil, I think, is really. [00:18:41] That's really helpful, Michael. [00:18:42] And I think that makes sense within, and I don't know if you would agree with this, but from my position, that would make sense why I think there is a progressive revelation that we see in the Old Testament of the gospel that culminates in Christ, the final word. [00:19:00] Hebrews chapter 1, He's the radiance. [00:19:02] You know, long ago, God spoke to us by our fathers, the prophets, in many ways and in sundry times, but finally, in these last days, He's spoken to us by His Son. [00:19:10] He's the exact imprint of the Father's nature, He's the radiance of the glory of God. [00:19:15] And so there's this progressive revelation that's coming to the world from the serpent crusher with Adam to the seed with Abraham to the king that's going to sit on the throne of David. [00:19:31] And so we see this revelatory progression, but then now culminating in Christ, and then Christ commissions his apostles to plant churches. [00:19:43] And then we're taking this work further. [00:19:45] And I would argue that that's why. [00:19:47] That's precisely why the world is getting better, not worse. [00:19:52] And I know it doesn't look that way sometimes when we watch the news, but that's because scare news sells. [00:20:01] But the reality is that I like what Ben Merkel and Doug Wilson talk about David and they say, we've come a long way from a man after God's own heart wearing foreskins as a necklace around his neck to what a man after God's own heart looks like today. [00:20:21] David was a bit of a barbarian. [00:20:24] He wasn't allowed to build the temple for a reason. [00:20:28] Because God literally says he shed too much blood. [00:20:30] And David was a good man. [00:20:32] Yeah, his foreskin necklace did not help his resume when he went to God and asked if he could build the temple. [00:20:38] This is literally the worst necklace I could ever have. [00:20:41] Yeah, it's pretty ugly. [00:20:43] Even worse, shell necklaces. [00:20:45] It got him his first wife. [00:20:47] He got him Saul's daughter. [00:20:49] But, anyways, the point is to say that there's a progressive revelation of the gospel. [00:20:53] Throughout the Old Testament, that culminates in Christ. [00:20:56] And then now there's a progressive expansion, not revelation of the gospel, but an expansion of the gospel built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. [00:21:07] And we're building on that and expanding this revelation to the world. [00:21:12] And as we do, my whole point is to say things are getting better. [00:21:17] We don't have, now, yeah, there are still, it's like stocks, right? [00:21:22] There are dips and spikes. [00:21:23] So that's not to say it's a perfectly gradual line of improvement. [00:21:27] Adolf Hitler is a dip, a big dip. [00:21:32] Abortion is a big dip. [00:21:35] But the point is that the world is not as violent as it once was. [00:21:41] But when you look at parts of the world and you look at the worldview behind it, Western civilization that's not as barbaric, that is not as physically violent, there's a reason for it. [00:21:55] And it's not because white people, Just decided to be civilized and wear wigs. [00:22:02] No, it's because Western civilization, the foundation of it is Christianity. [00:22:09] It's the Bible. [00:22:10] And that doesn't mean that we've always lived up to all of our ideals. [00:22:13] And that doesn't mean that we've executed all these things perfectly. [00:22:17] But the bottom line this is another Doug Wilson thing that's controversial, but I'm going to say it. [00:22:22] He said that. [00:22:22] Something Doug said is controversial? [00:22:24] Yeah. [00:22:25] If you don't want to be racist, he said that you look at other parts of the world. [00:22:31] You look at the Taliban, the 8th century barbarians, you know, and what they're doing in Afghanistan right now. [00:22:39] And they're barbarians, they're primitive in so many ways. [00:22:44] And so then, what's the difference between Europe and the East? [00:22:50] And so it's either biological, which we would reject, that is racist, or it's that white people were painting their faces blue and going and raping and pillaging. [00:23:02] Country is like Vikings, just like any other people group, until the gospel did something. [00:23:08] That the difference is the gospel. [00:23:09] The gospel changes not just individuals through conversion, but it changes societies. [00:23:15] It applies better laws and better governments and checks and balances. [00:23:21] I mean, the whole idea of America with our form of government is a form of government that was built on the presupposition of total depravity. [00:23:27] That's why we had so many checks and balances, to guard against tyranny, recognizing that these other countries that, like, God bless the poor people in Afghanistan, but it's because there aren't checks and balances. [00:23:40] There's just absolute tyranny. [00:23:42] But part of it is because their worldview, I wouldn't say just part of it, I would say that is the thing. [00:23:47] Their worldview doesn't account for sin like we're accounting for in this episode that would put in checks and balances. [00:23:53] So, my whole point is to say throughout the Old Testament, you have a progressive revelation of the gospel. [00:23:59] It culminates in the earthly ministry of Christ, his life, death, and resurrection. [00:24:04] And then Jesus says he binds the strong man so the enemy takes a pivotal blow in Jesus' ministry. [00:24:11] And then Jesus commissions not only the apostles, But he commissions us and he says, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [00:24:20] Therefore, go. [00:24:22] And as we go and make disciples, it's not just that hearts are being converted and we're increasing the heavenly citizens, the population in heaven, but with the teachings of Jesus, his commandments to go and make disciples, baptize them into the triune name, and we always forget the last part of the Great Commission teach them to obey all my commands, teach governments to obey my commands. [00:24:45] Civil nations, the nations are Christ's inheritance. [00:24:49] And as we do this, the world is getting better. [00:24:52] And yes, like stocks, there are spikes and dips, but it is trending upward. [00:24:58] And I look at the world today, and the places in the world that seem to be the darkest often are places that don't have the gospel or have received the gospel recently, like China. [00:25:12] There are tons of Christians in China, but that's still in the big scope of human history, the gospel coming to China. [00:25:20] Is a somewhat new advancement. [00:25:24] And I believe that by God's grace, and the gospel coming to Africa, I believe that if America continues in this state of apostasy, which is what I would say we're in, as a state of apostasy, and I know people have problems with that, with America is not a Christian nation. [00:25:37] Well, I think we're an apostate nation. [00:25:40] And if we continue with that, but people in Africa continue to accept the gospel, then if Jesus tarries a thousand years, I think Africa will flourish. [00:25:50] And America could be a third world country. [00:25:53] And my whole point in saying that is just to say we're not Gnostics. [00:25:57] The gospel has real life applications, and it's not just for spiritual, heavenly things to where we're no earthly good. [00:26:06] And the gospel doesn't just convert human hearts. [00:26:09] That's the chief thing that the gospel does. [00:26:11] But the gospel, when applied to societies, it lends towards human flourishing, it makes a difference. [00:26:20] And I think we see that progressively throughout human history. [00:26:24] And so, the difference in nations that have flourished and nations that have not is not anything inerrant in ethnicity, but what it ultimately is, is the fruit of the gospel in nations that are implementing the rule and reign of Christ. [00:26:39] And so, I think it's worth fighting for. [00:26:42] So, anyways, I know you guys probably wouldn't agree with all that. [00:26:45] Do you do? [00:26:47] I don't know that I did something there. === Discernment in Unorthodox Views (07:06) === [00:26:49] I'm all millennial, bro. [00:26:51] And which is really cool. [00:26:52] You have a pessimistic view of what you have. [00:26:54] Until the 19th century, all millennial and post millennial was the same thing. [00:26:57] And so I'm pretty much in the same place. [00:26:59] I just think that when Satan gets released, it's not going to be all peachy like you think. [00:27:05] I mean, I'm messing with you, bro. [00:27:09] I think it'll be more than a blip on the radar. [00:27:10] It's the reason we do shows at five. [00:27:12] He's tired. [00:27:12] Honestly, we're really close. [00:27:15] No, I agree with you. [00:27:16] I love all that. [00:27:17] Yeah. [00:27:17] I like it. [00:27:18] All right. [00:27:18] Well, guys, that was awesome. [00:27:20] Let's go ahead and end this episode. [00:27:22] I expected you to talk trash back. [00:27:24] You were just like, No, no, no, no. [00:27:27] It's good. [00:27:27] Well, talking trash takes time because if I talk trash, then you're going to talk trash and then we're going to be here for 30 more minutes and everyone's going to be bored. [00:27:34] So let's go ahead and land the plane. [00:27:36] I'm going to be the bigger man who doesn't talk trash, which ironically is me talking trash. [00:27:39] So. [00:27:42] So, this is how I want to end it. [00:27:45] You guys let our listeners know how they can follow you and how they can, you know, how can they keep up with you and what's some of the stuff you guys got in the pipeline. [00:27:54] And then, our listeners, make sure every time you listen to Remnant Radio, come back and listen to me two times just to make sure that they're not screwing with your mind, getting some weird guests on that show. [00:28:05] Yeah, you're for sure going to get weird guests here on Remnant Radio. [00:28:09] People that we disagree with, we've interviewed, people that Joel will disagree with and others will disagree with. [00:28:14] The point of the show is not to have someone on that we're just going to completely agree with. [00:28:18] Yeah. [00:28:19] So, guys, check us out, Ruminant Radio, the Ruminant Radio on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. [00:28:26] YouTube is the place. [00:28:28] We're on podcasting platforms and everything else. [00:28:30] And, like Joel said earlier, man, there are going to be people on our show that you're going to disagree with because we interview everyone from across the spectrum Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Pentecostals. [00:28:39] We disagree with. [00:28:40] Yeah. [00:28:40] Many of them we disagree with. [00:28:41] They're guys, probably one or two guys we've interviewed that we didn't even know were Orthodox. [00:28:45] And the reason we did the interview. [00:28:47] Was to ask those kinds of essential orthodox kinds of questions. [00:28:50] Jesus, the Son of God, is He divine? [00:28:53] Those kinds of things. [00:28:54] Man, I think it's a great place to kind of maybe break outside of the normal things you've been listening to and find out what other traditions have to say about a matter. [00:29:02] I mean, heck, I think the Lutheran tradition has a lot to add to the Christian faith. [00:29:05] And they've kind of been their own corner of Protestantism for a very long time. [00:29:09] And I think that we could glean a lot from them. [00:29:11] Yeah. [00:29:11] And if you name like one of the well known Bible scholars or pastors, theologians from around the world, we have probably interviewed them. [00:29:19] And so. [00:29:21] So, we do interviews on Wednesday. [00:29:22] We do do a show on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and that's less interview, more just right now. [00:29:27] We're talking through various revivals. [00:29:29] You did an episode, we did an episode on the Brownsville revival. [00:29:32] Uh, and so, but we do it in a way that we're thinking critically. [00:29:36] Uh, I mean, you just heard us for whatever hour and a half or whatever this was. [00:29:39] We think biblically, theologically, exegetically, all the things. [00:29:43] Um, and so we do have a Wednesday show on that. [00:29:45] We're starting a new one on church history, uh, a new episode coming up soon. [00:29:49] But basically, gifts of the spirit, church history, and then. [00:29:52] Theology across the spectrum. [00:29:54] We'll do episodes on the atonement. [00:29:55] We'll do an atonement theory. [00:29:57] We'll do episodes on the new perspective of Paul and. [00:30:02] And then the biblical version of the old perspective of Paul. [00:30:05] There you go. [00:30:06] Right. [00:30:06] But so. [00:30:08] But we'll talk about all of it. [00:30:09] We'll talk about all of it. [00:30:10] And then. [00:30:11] And so it's just a helpful, like you said at the beginning of the show, Joel, it busts out of your theological echo chamber, helps you think in some new ways in a safe space that is orthodox. [00:30:25] Safe space. [00:30:25] Joel loves that word. [00:30:27] Well, no, I appreciate what you guys have done. [00:30:30] Like, one of the things that Remnant Radio blessed me with was apart from just Michael's long term friendship, but you guys connected me. [00:30:38] Well, you didn't even mean to do this. [00:30:39] He just kind of picked up on it. [00:30:40] But through you guys, you connected me with Leighton Flowers. [00:30:43] And it was good, not because I changed my view, but it was good because I just, I remember talking to you, Michael, about it. [00:30:51] You know, like Leighton picked up on an episode I did with you guys with Calvinism and he started critiquing it. [00:30:58] Because you can only critique James White so many times, and so Leighton needed to find someone else. [00:31:05] The show must go on. [00:31:06] So, anyway, so he found my episode that I did with you guys and started critiquing me. [00:31:09] And then you guys let me do a response to him. [00:31:11] And then that culminated in a debate. [00:31:14] And my point is just to say that I remember talking to you about it, Michael, you know, after the debate and debriefing with you. [00:31:21] And, you know, it was like I didn't change my views, but I just realized, man, it had been like five, six, seven years since I had really gotten in the ring and sparred with someone over. [00:31:36] Total depravity. [00:31:38] Yeah. [00:31:38] Because, because I like the further you go, exactly the further you go in your life, in anything spiritual, theological, in anything, your career path, the further you go, the more you get toward people who are like you, specialized, exactly. [00:31:55] And the less you interact with, you know, so like I, you know, like there are just certain things that used to be regular. [00:32:02] I was always having these conversations because I was first coming into a view, which means all the relationships in my life, my family, my friends, everybody. [00:32:09] We're still in my old view, and I'm coming out of that view into a new view, like Calvinism, and I'm having to defend this change in me to all of my friends. [00:32:19] And so I'm being, but what about this? [00:32:21] And what about this? [00:32:21] And the problem of evil? [00:32:22] And, you know, what about free will? [00:32:24] And I remember when that was just like every day, I was living and breathing those kinds of conversations. [00:32:30] It was an argument every single day about free will, and an argument every single day. [00:32:34] And it wasn't just because I was a cage Calvinist and arrogant. [00:32:36] Part of it is just the practical relational context of coming out of one view. [00:32:41] Where you've been surrounded with all those friends into another view. [00:32:43] But then the point is, you come into this new view, and if you stick with it and you go down that path, yes, you're growing, yes, you're learning. [00:32:50] But one thing that you're losing is opposition. [00:32:56] And so it is helpful, I think, ministries like yours. [00:32:59] I think people need discernment. [00:33:00] And I think you guys help as kind of, you know, like bowling with bumpers, you know, keeping people from falling into like just straight up heretical gutter. [00:33:09] But so you guys help in the way that you host your show, protecting your listeners. [00:33:14] From just completely unorthodox views. [00:33:17] But I think the listener still needs to exercise a lot of biblical discernment. [00:33:20] But one of the benefits is that, yeah, there could be some confusion. [00:33:24] You don't have to know for sure what orthodoxy is. [00:33:27] Yeah. [00:33:28] Yeah. [00:33:28] Well, yeah. [00:33:29] But one of the benefits, my point is to say, one of the benefits is that a lot of times we don't spar and we get flabby and we get soft. [00:33:39] And that's been helpful for me. [00:33:41] So, anyways, thanks you guys for coming on the show. [00:33:43] I appreciate it. [00:33:45] Hey, Mabel. [00:33:45] It's always an honor. [00:33:46] I enjoyed being on, man. [00:33:47] Yeah, thanks for having me. [00:33:48] We appreciate what you're doing. [00:33:50] As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store. === The Benefit of Biblical Spar (00:20) === [00:33:56] To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.comslash offer. [00:34:01] We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved? [00:34:05] If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God, this would be a great resource. [00:34:10] As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.comslash offer. [00:34:15] And thank you for your generous support.