NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How To Identify A Cult Aired: 2021-07-28 Duration: 52:59 === How Do I Know If Im In A Cult (01:26) === [00:00:00] On this episode of Theology Applied, I was privileged to have both Andrew and Jeremiah, who are co hosts of the podcast called Cultish. [00:00:08] We actually took our interview and broke it up into two parts. [00:00:11] This is the first part where we primarily deal with the question of how do I know if I'm in a cult? [00:00:17] How do I know if a loved one is in a cult? [00:00:21] We deal with the universal signs that you can look towards to identify cults. [00:00:26] Hope you enjoy. [00:00:28] Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. [00:00:31] This is Theology Applied. [00:00:39] All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. [00:00:42] I'm joined again by Jeremiah and Andrew from Coltish. [00:00:47] They're a part of Apologia Church in Arizona, where it's nice and hot, and soon to be, Lord willing, planting another church, a new Apologia Church in Salt Lake, which is really the kingdom of the cults. [00:00:59] But we know that truly, in the ultimate sense, it belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, who's the King of all kings. [00:01:04] And so I wanted to do an episode specifically about cults, how to identify cults, what are some of the most dangerous cults, what are the signs that you might be a part of a cult, what are the distinctions between cults and the Christian faith, all things cultish with the co host of the podcast, Cultish. [00:01:23] So without further ado, Jeremiah and Andrew, thanks for coming on the show. === My Journey Into Apologetics And Cults (06:03) === [00:01:27] Feel free to introduce anything about yourselves you'd like to share. [00:01:30] Sure. [00:01:30] Well, I'm Jeremiah Roberts. [00:01:32] I'm one of the co hosts here at Cultish. [00:01:34] If you've listened in, And yeah, so I am originally from California, but California by origin, Arizona by choice. [00:01:43] I've lived in Arizona pretty much my entire life. [00:01:47] The background to even like how Coldish is a possibility and how this came about is that I ended up going to a charter school, I believe going into ninth grade, and it just so happened to be about 98% Mormon, which is actually right not too far away from where we host our services at Apologia Church. [00:02:07] That whole process began. [00:02:09] A point where I started to really question and really think through what I had grown up to believe. [00:02:15] Because it's really the first time, kind of being sheltered in a homeschool, where I was just in a tribe of people who believed something very different than what I did. [00:02:23] And through that process, I got a book. [00:02:26] I got a hold of a book of someone you may have heard of, Dr. James White, a book called Letters to a Mormon Elder. [00:02:33] That was sort of a really great book, a bunch of fictional letters written to a Mormon missionary, talking over. [00:02:40] A variety of topics. [00:02:41] I'm really surprised there haven't been more books written in that format of actual letters, like to a Jehovah's Witness or letters to a Muslim. [00:02:49] I'm generally surprised that hasn't been the case, but this book had a huge impact on me. [00:02:54] During that time, someone gave me a copy of the giant thick book of, I think, the fifth edition of Kingdom of the Cults by Dr. Walter Martin. [00:03:03] And yeah, and so yeah, then through that process, I've just had a genuine interest in apologetics, specifically in relation to the world of the cults. [00:03:12] And especially when Jeff and I connected, we back in the day, we would listen to Walter Martin on a lot of VHS videos and tape cassettes. [00:03:21] And, you know, I can't believe I'm actually saying that. [00:03:22] So it gets you an idea for my age. [00:03:24] So, and so, yeah, that's just kind of a little bit about where I come from and my relation to Coltish. [00:03:30] And, yeah, this is just something that started roughly about two and a half years ago that we launched. [00:03:38] And I think, in many ways, and you'll jump into this too, Andrew, I think I told people too that. [00:03:43] The success we've had on some level, you know, there's a lot of work and effort you have to continually put in to a podcast. [00:03:50] But I think just for the topics that we cover, there's a huge, huge marketplace. [00:03:56] And being able to give a definitive Christian apologetic and response to the different topics that are brought up in issues like ufology, the whole UFO alien discussion, the New Age, the occult, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, all those broad varieties of topics we cover, there is not much out there that's covering it from a definitive perspective. [00:04:23] Biblical worldview. [00:04:24] So, I think that is one of the reasons why even people who are atheists or agnostics still appreciate our podcast because they know if we're going to talk about the Branch Davidians or David Koresh or Warren Jeffs or any of the cults that we talk about, they're going to get that Christian worldview. [00:04:42] In the same way, where if someone listens to Ben Shapiro, they know they're going to get a very fast talking, if you listen to him, conservative view on the topic of the day. [00:04:53] Anyways, that's enough of me. [00:04:55] You can go ahead, Andrew. [00:04:56] Yeah. [00:04:57] So, yeah, I was born in Las Vegas, Nevada. [00:05:00] I moved to Phoenix when I was 13. [00:05:02] I've been here for 18 years now. [00:05:05] And it was during my high school experience as well when I met, started meeting a lot of people that were from different backgrounds and beliefs. [00:05:11] Because prior to me coming out here, I went to a Calvary Chapel Christian school growing up. [00:05:15] So it was sheltered in the sense of, you know, coming up against different, differing beliefs. [00:05:19] So in high school, I had a falling away of sorts. [00:05:23] I met a lot of people into the new age. [00:05:25] I even met many LDS people. [00:05:27] It was during this time where I was really formulating, in a sense, the worldview that I grew up in, in terms of actually having and engaging in conversations, even though I wasn't acting out what it really means to be a Christian. [00:05:41] It wasn't until around college when I really wanted to take things more seriously. [00:05:44] I remember I picked up the first book I picked up on the cults, besides reading the Bible and trying to become familiar with the authentic, was Anthony Hekema's Four Major Cults. [00:05:54] And that started peaking my interest really into learning more about these differing beliefs. [00:06:02] Yeah, so that's how I got into cults. [00:06:05] And then it was around 2017 when I started going to Apologia Church. [00:06:09] And one of the first people I met actually at Apologia was Jerry. [00:06:13] And we just kind of hit it off. [00:06:15] We started talking and we started talking about cults and started talking about oneness Pentecostals. [00:06:20] Yeah, there's some people out there who are oneness apostolic Pentecostals. [00:06:24] And I was meeting up with them. [00:06:26] And then I, yeah, so I was like telling them all about the conversation. [00:06:30] And then you were like taking all these notes. [00:06:32] I found out that you have this amazing research ability. [00:06:34] Which that's how you sort of became the super sleuth because, like, oh my gosh, you just would have 10 pages of research. [00:06:40] And actually, no, I'd get an email back with about 10 pages of research like 30 minutes later. [00:06:45] It was funny. [00:06:45] Well, maybe, maybe 45 an hour. [00:06:47] Well, I had already been reading the topics before we even started discussing them, which is hilarious because I was already going through Kingdom of the Colts, just, you know, listening to Pastor Jeff and, you know, watching Apollo Gia Radio, always talking about Kingdom of the Colts. [00:06:59] Like, I got to buy this book, sell my shirt, buy the book. [00:07:02] And yeah, it was just cool how all of that worked out. [00:07:04] And Jerry and I became best friends and we just enjoy that. [00:07:08] Yeah. [00:07:09] Yeah, that's great. [00:07:10] Cool, guys. [00:07:11] Well, it's great to get to know you a little bit. [00:07:13] I'm sure our listeners are happy to get to hear some of your backstory, and I'm honored that you came on the show today. [00:07:19] So let's go ahead and just dive right in. [00:07:21] Again, kind of a 30,000 foot view. [00:07:24] I want to basically, my hope is that this would be kind of a primer on cults. === The Charismatic Leader Trap Explained (10:13) === [00:07:30] And so, not really dealing with any one specific cult in detail, but cults in general. [00:07:36] And so, that said, the first question that I have is this certainly, individual cults will vary. [00:07:42] But are there any universal characteristics, any common denominators that we can find across the board that would mark pretty much every cult? [00:07:52] Well, I'll start and then you can give me your thoughts, Andrew. [00:07:54] I think one of the things you'll see that's universally is that you will have a group of people or an organization either centralized around a charismatic leader that is on some level either proclaiming deity that they somehow are divine or God in the flesh. [00:08:15] You've seen them manifest at many different times. [00:08:18] Just for the sake of time, there's a lot of examples we could give. [00:08:22] Or they believe that they are tapped into a source, via God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, and they are deriving this revelation. [00:08:34] The only way to be in the know, to be in the truth, is through them. [00:08:38] So, in other words, they're sort of trying to emulate really what Christ warned about false Christ, false Messiahs appearing. [00:08:47] So that's usually one characteristic. [00:08:49] You'll have someone who is a charismatic leader tapped into some sort of revelatory source. [00:08:53] I'll give one more just sociological. [00:08:57] You would have a, usually like another characteristic would be rigid restrictions in regards to the member about how, what they can eat, where they can live, even like how often they can sleep. [00:09:14] A lot of times the regulation, especially during early recruitment, Usually involves sleep deprivation, which gets people a lot of times into a very vulnerable and suggestible state where they, you know, the love bomb and all that sort of things. [00:09:28] But those would be two sociological characteristics. [00:09:32] What are some examples you give, Andrew? [00:09:34] Yeah, yeah. [00:09:34] I'll give some tangible examples of what you just explained. [00:09:37] So, for example, in terms of charismatic leaders, although they might not be the most charismatic, we can look at the LDS organization, right? [00:09:43] We have their prophet that exists today. [00:09:46] Let's say they have a special tapping in with God. [00:09:48] I mean, In that sense, we actually can see that when there is one of these types of leaders who claims this special knowledge, we'll actually have extra biblical revelation in the form of books, right? [00:09:59] We can say the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants. [00:10:04] We can even go to the Watchtower Tract Society and their publications saying that you need to view the Bible through the lens of extra biblical revelation. [00:10:12] So I'd say any big red flag to a person would be if someone's coming to you and saying, you need to look at the Bible in these specific terms, given Through this rigid set of structure that roots from an organization or a system or a person. [00:10:31] And that's a big red flag. [00:10:34] And typically, what will happen is we'll have a distortion of text, right? [00:10:38] So you can go to the lds.org or whatever the website is now, or even jdub.org. [00:10:43] And what are the first things that they do when you look at the website? [00:10:45] They redefine who Jesus is, right? [00:10:48] They redefine how the church fell. [00:10:51] They would say there was a great apostasy, both would claim that. [00:10:55] And you'll see that they have to redefine everything in order to reimplant their worldview. [00:11:00] First, they have to make you go, well, does the Bible really say that? [00:11:03] Can the Bible be trusted? [00:11:04] No, trust me with my revelation. [00:11:07] And this is what you need to do to achieve salvation. [00:11:09] So, anything which also leads again to a workspace type of salvation model and system where you have to listen to the leader and do as they say. [00:11:18] Right. [00:11:18] Yeah. [00:11:19] Yeah. [00:11:19] That's really helpful. [00:11:20] So, making bringing people this, you know, the social aspect, bringing them to a place of vulnerability and then. [00:11:26] And then basically breaking them down and then building them back up, reshaping them, affirming them, the love bomb thing that you said, Jeremiah. [00:11:33] But then also, this sense of always around one charismatic leader. [00:11:38] And I have experienced that where people say, man, I never understood the Bible until so and so, until so and so's teaching. [00:11:46] And if they say, if they're saying someone who's faithful, like until I heard R.C. Sproul or Jeff Durbin, well, it's really not so and so. [00:11:54] That's just the first good Bible teacher that they've ever come across. [00:11:57] And we have 2,000 years of church history. [00:11:59] And so that would be different. [00:12:01] But if it's this person who made the Bible make sense for the very first time, so that's really helpful to hear that it's kind of like multiple steps removed instead of just to the source. [00:12:13] The scripture. [00:12:14] I've got to have this guy working as a lens, my hermeneutic for understanding the scripture, and probably also functioning as a priest. [00:12:21] So he's functioning as a prophet, right? [00:12:23] He's helping me understand revelation. [00:12:24] He's also functioning as a priest, helping to absolve me of my sin and tell me the path and give me my works, my penance, and those kinds of things. [00:12:33] And then ultimately, it's strict, rigid guidelines, a real absence of grace. [00:12:38] Is that a good summary? [00:12:40] I think that's brilliant. [00:12:41] It's beautiful that you pointed out in that sense of how they try to achieve what Jesus achieved perfectly because they don't. [00:12:48] Actually, give a sacrifice for people's sins instead that Cole Peter wants everyone else to sacrifice things for them, which is something that I'd point out. [00:12:56] I think that was a beautiful Batman. [00:12:58] Yeah, and I think that's, I'm glad you brought that out too, that a lot of times people will go up to even like one of our pastors or Jeff Durban, for example, and say, wow, that's just amazing the way he's doing this expository preaching. [00:13:10] I've never heard that. [00:13:11] But again, if you're going to a very seeker sensitive, friendly church, which is 30 minutes of self help, go and get it all, but then all of a sudden it's the first time you're hearing about. [00:13:20] Justification, the imputation of Christ's righteousness, or hearing about the role that the gospel had, the gospel of the kingdom that's being proclaimed. [00:13:27] We've been now in the gospel of Matthew, I think, for, I don't know, six, seven years. [00:13:33] We're kind of towards the end. [00:13:35] But what's different, though, is that when we talk about someone who's revelatory and charismatic, that's not the ultimate standard. [00:13:42] What you ultimately would have to do is that, yeah, this person can be charismatic. [00:13:48] They can have maybe a magnetic personality that kind of draws you in. [00:13:53] To hear what they're having to preach, but ultimately doesn't line up with scripture. [00:13:57] So, if there is someone, if there's a group of people who are following, for example, a charismatic leader, and he's teaching from the Bible, and people are saying, Wow, I've never heard anything like this before, something unique that he's saying, but it doesn't line up historically with basic Christian orthodoxy, or maybe he's sort of being honest on the forefront, but then once you become a member, you start learning the deeper doctrines, and through that, maybe you find out. [00:14:25] Salvation is actually a 10 step process you have to do, or all of a sudden the deity of Christ begins to be questioned. [00:14:34] Well, actually, we have some deeper doctrine. [00:14:36] There's always this appeal within the cults and the occult, and it's been something that Christianity has been at war with since its inception the aspect of secret, hidden, esoteric knowledge. [00:14:48] That is something that the cults always will appeal to. [00:14:51] So, a good biblical pastor will say, Don't take my word for it, test what I say by scripture. [00:14:57] So, even this past week, when I was out at one of the Mormon wards, we were doing outreach. [00:15:04] I would say, Don't take my word for it. [00:15:06] Like, go home and read this yourself. [00:15:09] Don't say, This is my word, and this is the way, this is my way, this is my way because I said so. [00:15:14] So, yeah, I really appreciate the fact that you brought that up. [00:15:18] Yeah, yeah. [00:15:19] It also sounds like one of the things I'm detecting from you guys is we could probably talk a lot about church polity. [00:15:26] So, like what you're saying, the Berean kind of mindset of, you know, don't just take my word. [00:15:30] For it, but go and test it against the scripture. [00:15:33] But then also within a local church, one of the ways that Christianity would be distinct from cults is, at least for you guys and me, I know that we're in the Reformed Baptist tribe, and I'm pretty sure Apologia would hold to the 1689, and I know that I do. [00:15:46] And so there's, you know, we have chapters in our confession that speak to the common suffrage of the congregation, or they speak to the priesthood of all believers, not just one charismatic individual. [00:16:00] And so, in a very real sense, at least in a Reformed Baptist church, The pastor can be removed by the peanut gallery, for lack of a better phrase. [00:16:10] Meaning that, you know, so they're not just peons, they're priests. [00:16:14] The congregation matters. [00:16:16] You know, it's a big deal to be a member of a church. [00:16:19] And there is a congregational polity to where every Christian has a responsibility, but also rights. [00:16:26] And I think that's what I've noticed with cults or cult like churches big, domineering, charismatic leaders. [00:16:35] They love to give responsibility to the people. [00:16:38] But I'm always wary when people have lots of responsibility, but they don't also, with that responsibility, possess any rights. [00:16:45] And so, for the members in my church, hey, man, you're responsible for a lot. [00:16:50] It's a big deal to be a part of Christ's bride. [00:16:53] The faithfulness and the purity of this church's gospel witness falls ultimately on the elders in a larger sense, but it falls very much on the members as well. [00:17:03] And one of the ways that it comes down to your responsibility is because you are the ones who ordain. [00:17:09] Elders, and you are the ones who have the authority to remove them. [00:17:12] And so I always express it like this: if I tell somebody, hey, you're responsible for cleaning my house, but I don't give them the keys to get inside, then it just doesn't really make sense. [00:17:23] Like with every responsibility, there has to be a police officer, serve and protect, right? [00:17:29] There's your duty, your responsibility. [00:17:31] But then you also equip them with a badge and a gun, right? [00:17:33] There's certain rights and privileges, power that comes. [00:17:37] And I see that as a constant theme throughout the scripture. [00:17:40] God calls us to something and also gives us the rights. === Testing Your Peace With God (13:45) === [00:17:43] The ability, the power, the enablement to carry out what he's called us to do. [00:17:49] He's a good father. [00:17:49] He doesn't exasperate his sons, asking them to do one thing, but giving them no power to carry it out. [00:17:56] And that seems to be a common denominator in cults. [00:17:59] So, pushing past that, if somebody was in a cult, all right, so I know you guys have probably addressed many people who would fall into this category, but let's just say that somebody's listening to this episode of the podcast right now and they're in a cult, or perhaps more likely they have a friend or a loved one who they suspect might be a part of a cult. [00:18:18] What are some telltale signs that you could, you know, if you were just a list, you know, I wrote in my notes five, but five is an arbitrary number. [00:18:26] So whatever number you decide, but are there any clear signs that you can say these are quick identifiers? [00:18:32] I know we've already kind of been discussing this, but some things right on the surface that would pop out. [00:18:38] So identifiers to say that someone was in a cult? [00:18:42] Yeah. [00:18:42] So one of the things that you would see is that one of the things that happens initially when someone gets into a cult, and you'd see this, for example, with the Moonies. [00:18:51] And Steve Hassan, who's not a Christian, but his book, Combating Cult Mind Control, is excellent. [00:18:56] And I would actually argue that the only reason he can even make a basis for anything within the book is because he's an image bearer of God and he's appealing to the standards that ultimately God gives in regards to how we are supposed to love your neighbor and love does no harm to its neighbor. [00:19:12] So while Steve Hassan was borrowing from God's standards to come up with the bite model, which is behavior control, information control, thought control, emotional control. [00:19:23] One of the unique aspects when someone gets into a cult is this conversion experience where it's the replacement of their own unique self and the severing of that and the replacements with the cult identity. [00:19:38] So, one of the ways that you can see that is that usually there is a huge process, especially in the early times of recruitment, there's a lot of indoctrination where they're cut out from any sort of alternative viewpoints, they are cut off from friends and family. [00:19:55] Who disagree, and a lot of times they will just sort of given this level of programming. [00:20:02] You'll see it where a lot of times, if you are familiar with whatever cult that it is, they'll kind of have these points where they're their own unique self and they're being their authentic self. [00:20:13] And all of a sudden, it's like something will switch, and all of a sudden, they'll start saying some sort of mantra robotically. [00:20:21] And it's weird too, especially you've heard them say something you've heard dozens of other people say. [00:20:27] And this is just something that pre programmed. [00:20:29] This is how you respond. [00:20:31] So that would be one example. [00:20:33] I think one of the things you have to be very careful about when talking with someone who's in a cult is that they have what would be called a siege mentality. [00:20:44] So, what they would do is that they would interpret any sort of criticism of their group as unwarranted persecution. [00:20:54] So, if you come up and just yell out, like, you're in a cult, oh my gosh, you have to get out. [00:21:00] Like, and you just go completely bananas and go cage stage on them, they will completely throw up a wall. [00:21:08] They don't want to hear anything that you have to say. [00:21:10] So, I think one of the best ways you can do something, and even Walton Martin talked about it too, where you would just calmly, you know, as one of your behavior. [00:21:22] Like, people, there's a saying that says, People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. [00:21:27] They, cults, are usually taught that anyone who is an outsider. [00:21:30] Means them harm in many ways, or they are someone who is a suppressive person, or they are an anti, or there's just something, usually some sort of negative connotation, not just people who are on the outside, but those who are critical of the group. [00:21:46] So if we are doing evangelism, we come up to someone who's a Jehovah's Witness and we're engaging with them, off the get go, they don't feel very positively towards us. [00:21:57] But just the fact there's a smile on your face and that you look them in the eye and you're genuine. [00:22:03] There's something just in that that will throw people off. [00:22:07] But another thing, too, is to whether it is just bringing up something in regards to their history or bringing up scripture, a lot of times they are taught to isolate. [00:22:18] When they're taught their doctrine, every single cult has something they have to do with Jesus or the Bible, but they always have to have it molded within their image. [00:22:28] And so, and really, it's really their own idol that they've made. [00:22:32] But you have to be able to bring up. [00:22:36] Different questions, different topics, but don't do it to the form of like, well, you believe this, right? [00:22:44] The best way to do it, I would just give one example, and Andrew, I'll let you jump in here as well, is that I would give, not necessarily accuse someone of something, but bring it up through the way of asking for clarification. [00:22:57] So if we are talking, for example, about the nature of Jesus Christ, and for example, we're talking with someone who's a Jehovah's Witness who believes that. [00:23:07] Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel, Jehovah's first creation. [00:23:12] You know, bring up Hebrews chapter in Hebrews when it talks about how Christ is superior to angels. [00:23:19] And it says, as written, let all the angels of God worship him. [00:23:23] So you would bring up that. [00:23:24] Or if you're dealing with someone who's a oneness apostolic and they're talking about how Jesus didn't exist prior to the incarnation and he's just a manifestation, well, you could bring up John 17 5, where Christ talks about sharing the glory with the Father before the foundation of the world. [00:23:43] When in Isaiah 42, God says he will not share his glory with another. [00:23:48] And so, usually, for example, I would bring that up and just say, well, what do you think about that? [00:23:53] Pause. [00:23:54] And usually that's the best moment where you can bring up any sort of question in the moment. [00:23:59] And it could be anything regarding scripture. [00:24:02] It could be something regarding a certain leader. [00:24:06] Because a lot of times they have the sort of perfect messianic view of whoever the leader is, whether it's Ellen G. White, whether it's Mary Baker Eddy, whether it's L. Ron Hubbard, whatever it is. [00:24:19] But you bring up a topic and ask through clarification just to get them to think outside. [00:24:25] How they've been programmed to think. [00:24:26] And that's usually the best moments because you used to see them almost like that classic, like Winnie the Pooh. [00:24:31] It's like, think, think. [00:24:32] When you get them to think outside of their pre programmed bubble, that's where you want to be able to play the game in regards to communicating with people who are in a cult. [00:24:45] That's beautiful, brother. [00:24:46] But one thing that I'd like to mention too is if there's someone who is in a cult and they are listening to this and they don't know if they're in a cult, the first thing I'd ask is, do you have peace with God? [00:24:55] Do you have peace with God? [00:24:56] Because we know that the Bible says that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, the Christ of Scripture, you know, by grace through faith alone in Him for your salvation, that you don't have peace with God. [00:25:09] And I got to believe what God says about you rather than how you portray yourself to the world, even replacing your identity with the identity of the cult leader. [00:25:18] The question is, do you have peace with God? [00:25:19] Because the Bible says you don't if you don't know who Jesus is, right? [00:25:23] So the gospel, number one, is the answer. [00:25:26] To getting someone out of the cult. [00:25:27] The only good answer, because the secular world doesn't have a great answer. [00:25:31] We go from one cult to another. [00:25:34] We like to use the term out of the frying pan and into the fire, from the cult of the Jehovah's Witnesses to the cult of secularism and secular humanism at large, right? [00:25:42] There's no answer in that. [00:25:44] It goes from purposelessness to more purposelessness, right? [00:25:48] It goes from not being at peace with God to still not being at peace with God. [00:25:52] So the question is do you find yourself a slave? [00:25:54] Do you have freedom? [00:25:56] Christ says when you believe in him that he sets you free, free indeed to worship him in spirit and in truth, to be who you are truly, right? [00:26:05] While being conformed to the image of Christ, yet being more the way the Lord intended for you to be in right relationship with him, right? [00:26:14] The Christian, we have the ability to look and test what we believe, right? [00:26:19] We can do that. [00:26:20] We have the freedom. [00:26:21] We have the freedom to look at the Bible when our pastor talks and says, Is what he said actually correct, right? [00:26:28] Do you not have that ability? [00:26:30] Do you have to listen to every single thing this person says? [00:26:33] Do you have to do X, Y, and Z to achieve salvation? [00:26:37] Do you have to pay for this and to pay for that and do this course and that course in order to gain more knowledge to get you closer up the ladder, you know, towards this new knowledge? [00:26:49] If that's the case, then I'm sorry, you don't have peace with God. [00:26:51] The ladder never ends. [00:26:53] Jesus died once for all, right, for our sins that we could have peace with God. [00:26:58] The gospel's the answer. [00:27:00] You find yourself a slave, set yourself free through the blood of Christ. [00:27:03] That's what I would say. [00:27:04] Amen. [00:27:05] Amen. [00:27:05] No, that's great. [00:27:07] How would you respond, Andrew or Jeremiah? [00:27:09] Because I like what you were saying in terms of do you have peace with God. [00:27:13] My experience, though, as a pastor is the individual that I'm asking that question to is not always the best person to accurately assess whether or not they have peace with God. [00:27:26] Meaning, a lot of non Christians think they have peace. [00:27:33] And then there are some Christians that at times don't have peace, you know, that they are truly regenerate. [00:27:41] I think, you know, John Bunyan, I'm a big fan of Pilgrim's Progress, you know, and. [00:27:46] The debate is when was he saved? [00:27:49] Was it at the wicket gate or was it at the cross and the sepulchre when the burden rolled off of his back? [00:27:54] And then there was a moment where he lost his assurance, even past the wicket gate, past the cross and the three shining ones who came down, and he had to go back. [00:28:04] And there were multiple times throughout the journey that Christian, the main protagonist, was not at peace. [00:28:13] And then there are many times when those who do not fear God. [00:28:19] Sadly, they are at peace. [00:28:20] And I think of even, you know, Amazing Grace, the second stanza says, 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved.' And one of my big concerns for the church, and I think our modern generation here in America, is that the love of God has been wasted on a generation that's never been taught to fear God. [00:28:40] And that a line like that from the famous hymn, Amazing Grace, is completely, it leaves people bewildered. [00:28:49] They don't even have the First, inclination of what that means grace teaching a heart first to fear and then grace relieving that is actually a gracious thing of God to reveal to us His holiness and our sinfulness. [00:29:04] Right? [00:29:04] The first use of the law it functions as a mirror, it shows to us our sinfulness by virtue of reflecting the holiness of God. [00:29:12] And that it's actually, you know, these days, everything's you know, shame is always demonized. [00:29:17] You know, this is a shame free zone, this is you know, a safe space. [00:29:19] You know, these are my trigger warnings, and uh. [00:29:22] Whereas the gospel does not create a people who are immune to shame. [00:29:26] It doesn't. [00:29:27] I think the gospel creates a community, namely the Church of Christ, that actually heightens shame when there's something to truly be shameful about. [00:29:35] There's a grace of shame. [00:29:37] But what the gospel provides is a place where that shame can ultimately be dealt with. [00:29:42] And so for me as a Christian, I'm no longer just sinning against my maker, my creator. [00:29:46] I'm sinning against my Savior, the one who gave his life for me. [00:29:50] I am, as it were, trampling underfoot the blood of the Lamb. [00:29:55] Again, and so my shame has actually increased this side of conversion. [00:29:59] And so there are moments of extreme distress and discomfort and anxiety as a Christian. [00:30:07] And now that's not the ongoing perpetual state of the Christian. [00:30:11] There is peace to be found in Christ, to be sure. [00:30:15] But there are moments of immense distress, falling under the Puritans used to say, falling under the fatherly displeasure, right? [00:30:22] You're not losing your salvation. [00:30:23] He's no longer, God's not reverting back to the stance of being judge, He's still your adoptive father. [00:30:29] But you've fallen under his fatherly displeasure. [00:30:33] Or, like Psalm 32, David says, his hand was heavy upon me, my bones were wasting away inside. [00:30:39] And so, the Christian can experience my point is, the Christian can experience what subjectively feels like in the moment a severe loss of peace. [00:30:49] And the unbeliever can experience what they perceive due to their blindness. [00:30:55] Now, it's a willful blindness, but due to their blindness that ultimately stems from rebellion, they're lying and suppressing the truth of God and deeds of unrighteousness. [00:31:04] But by doing so, ignorance is progressively growing from rebellion, and they can be at peace. [00:31:13] And so, my question is when you ask that person, you say, Are you at peace with God? [00:31:19] And you know this person is a part of a cult. [00:31:20] You know that based off of the fruit of their lives and based off of their testimony, there's no way that you could affirm this person's salvation. [00:31:27] You say, Are you at peace with God? === Biblical Truth Versus Willful Blindness (06:14) === [00:31:29] And they smile and say, You betcha. [00:31:32] What do you do? [00:31:34] Yeah, well, that's a good question, man. [00:31:36] Let me also just comment as well. [00:31:39] Pilgrim's Progress is also one of my favorite books. [00:31:41] That's one of the books I grew up watching and reading, The Abridged Virgin Dangerous Journey, which the artwork in there is incredible. [00:31:49] But I think one of the points that's great to show that Christians do, as you mentioned earlier, deal with emotional struggle, turmoil, and pain, even post salvation, having peace with God and with Christ, is Christians and hopefuls' experience at Doubting Castle. [00:32:05] When into giant despair and all that happens, and I mean, I mean, he's one of the there's no I don't think there's really any literary person today who would be able to talk about the aspects of what Christian and Hopeful were really dealing with. [00:32:24] I mean, he went right at the point where he's bringing up the fact that they were thinking they're contemplating suicide, the giant gave them the noose, the knife, or the bottle of poison. [00:32:35] To end it all. [00:32:37] But also, it was amazing. [00:32:38] There's a whole pile of bones of other pilgrims who had succumbed to three of those things to end that despair. [00:32:45] But in that, Christian finds this little key called promise and he uses that to lock the gate. [00:32:52] And so, anyways, ah, I love. [00:32:54] It's the pocket. [00:32:56] Yes. [00:32:56] Yeah, the pocket. [00:32:57] So, it needs to say what's different between a Christian who is struggling with that is that ultimately we have an ultimate standard, we have the ultimate point of reference. [00:33:08] Who we talk to, what their basis is. [00:33:11] I mean, that there's a reason why Hebrews talks about we have a faithful high priest who is able to have empathy with our weaknesses, who is tempted in every way that we were, yet without sin. [00:33:23] It says, therefore, let us go to that throne with confidence that we may find grace in the time of need. [00:33:28] The cultists, on the other hand, whether admittedly or unadmittedly, they don't have peace with God and they deal with a lot of those same emotions. [00:33:38] They're image bearers of God, but they don't have an ultimate. [00:33:42] Point of reference if they are good enough. [00:33:45] So, whether or not they admit it, there is, I don't, there's not a cultist in the world who can genuinely look at the claims of Christ where he says, Come to me, you who are weary laden, and I will give you rest. [00:34:00] There's no cultist in the world who can genuinely say that. [00:34:04] Yeah, you're right. [00:34:05] Yeah, absolutely. [00:34:06] What do you think about this, Jeremiah and Andrew? [00:34:10] Would this be a good Lipnitz test? [00:34:11] And I'm genuinely asking, these aren't trick questions. [00:34:13] You guys really, you know your stuff on this topic. [00:34:16] Far more than I do. [00:34:17] And so I'm learning along with our audience with this episode. [00:34:21] And so I'm grateful for the opportunity. [00:34:23] So, genuine question would this be a decent litmus test to say, do you have peace with God? [00:34:29] And let's say the person says, oh, yeah, you betcha. [00:34:32] And could you maybe say, do you have a sense of peace when you read the Bible? [00:34:41] Have you ever read the Bible? [00:34:42] Maybe start with that. [00:34:43] But then I challenge you, would you be willing to do this? [00:34:45] Would you be willing, just as a test, would you be willing to read the Bible? [00:34:49] Or for me, I would. [00:34:51] Go to 1 John, you know, because I think 1 John for the Christian is just shotgun assurance. [00:34:57] You know, it's just, you know, it's like all these different tests. [00:34:59] But the point is, because if someone's a Christian, they're going to have at least some fruit in one of these areas. [00:35:04] It's shotgun assurance. [00:35:05] So it's not like you've got to be this tall in this area and this area. [00:35:08] And if you don't measure up in any of them, you're not saved. [00:35:10] No, like, I mean, John, he says expressly, you know, his point in the Gospel of John is, I write to you so that you might believe. [00:35:16] But in 1 John, I write to you so that you might know, right? [00:35:19] And there's a difference between believing and knowing that you believe, knowing that you have. [00:35:24] Eternal life. [00:35:24] And so his point is assurance, it's shotgun assurance. [00:35:27] But I remember in my life before conversion, thinking that I was a Christian, a professing Christian, raised in the church, but before conversion, reading 1 John, and it was my least favorite book in the Bible. [00:35:38] It terrified me. [00:35:39] I could not, you know, because it was just, you know, just statement after statement. [00:35:43] And so my question again is just, would that be a good test or would that be too accusational? [00:35:48] Would it be too aggressive? [00:35:49] Would it turn them off? [00:35:50] But if you just said, all right, so you say you have peace with God, you know, I really hope that that's true. [00:35:56] And I don't know your heart. [00:35:57] You know, man looks at the outward appearance, God sees the heart. [00:35:59] But here's a good test that I've personally used, and maybe you might find it useful as well. [00:36:03] There's a book of the Bible that is actually written with the express purpose of the Holy Spirit inspiring the apostle to give peace to those people who truly belong to God, to give them a sense of assurance, affirmation, and peace in their security in their relationship with God as their Father. [00:36:23] And yet, this book of the Bible is written so. [00:36:26] Beautifully and poignantly in the inspiration of God Himself, that if somebody is not a child of God, this book of the Bible oftentimes creates despair. [00:36:38] Would you be willing to read that book of the Bible and just as you're reading, just see? [00:36:45] Does it give you hope? [00:36:46] Does it give you peace? [00:36:47] Or does it make you really worried? [00:36:49] Would that be a decent test? [00:36:52] Yeah, man. [00:36:52] I think pointing people back to the Word of God in general is amazing, right? [00:36:57] God does the work. [00:36:58] In people's lives, you plant seeds, God waters them, He does the work. [00:37:02] And I think one good thing, too, about even just thinking about the question, do you have peace with God? [00:37:05] Because even if someone replies yes, the answer can be, well, how do you have peace with God? [00:37:10] Right? [00:37:11] And then if you have peace with God through X, Y, and Z, relying on yourself and your external means, you then are actually in slavery, right? [00:37:19] Not slavery free by Christ, but then you can point them to the beauty of the word in 1 John. [00:37:25] Then you can point them to the law and say, do you really? [00:37:28] This is who God is. [00:37:29] This is his nature. [00:37:30] This is his character. [00:37:31] You're made in the image of God. [00:37:32] So, regardless of what you say about yourself, you want these great things, these great attributes of God, yet you've been deceived. [00:37:39] You know? [00:37:40] That's good, Andrew. [00:37:41] Thank you. [00:37:41] All right. [00:37:42] So, go ahead. === Utilizing Language To Defend Christianity (04:07) === [00:37:43] Did you want to say something? [00:37:44] Yeah. [00:37:44] And just one other thing, Walter Martin always said when someone would say, I believe in Jesus, Walter Martin always said, Well, I always counteract by saying, Which one? [00:37:53] Right. [00:37:53] That's something as well, too, because every single cult, every religion, they have to have Jesus on their team. [00:38:00] They all deny that he is Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, second person of the Trinity, come to die for lost souls. [00:38:10] So, that is something when you get down to it, there's always what you would call a language barrier. [00:38:16] So, if someone is talking about obtaining peace or believing in God or talking about a higher power, whatever you call it, they mean something substantially different than biblically what we think is Christian. [00:38:30] So, you're talking to a Mormon, many times they're speaking Mormonese. [00:38:35] Or we would be speaking Christianese, or if you're talking to a Scientologist, Scientologies? [00:38:41] Hebronology. [00:38:42] Yeah. [00:38:42] Yeah. [00:38:43] So, there's a unique language there when there are certain things that would appeal to them. [00:38:51] And so, one of the ways like Walton Martin would utilize the gospel relation to Scientology, Scientology's ultimate mission would be to go clear, to go up the bridge to total freedom. [00:39:02] So, at the very end of Walton Martin's lecture on Scientology, he says, No one has ever made it clear in Scientology. [00:39:10] The only people who have made it clear are the ones who have gone to the foot of the cross. [00:39:15] And have been touched by the hands of Jesus of Nazareth. [00:39:17] So he took their language and used it in a way to articulate the gospel because everyone knows in Scientology, even the people who are the OT sevens or the OT, I think it's OT nines, but what else is it? [00:39:30] It keeps going up. [00:39:30] Yeah, the OT infinity. [00:39:32] All of them know that when they got to these certain levels and they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, they are just as broken, just as needy, hungry, forgotten, in need of God, but they are given this religious system in its place. [00:39:47] And so, yeah. [00:39:49] You always want to figure out what is their language and how do you articulate that in such a way to where they understand the gospel. [00:39:58] Like there's a guy who is a guru and he would talk about understanding. [00:40:04] But it was someone who was new age. [00:40:07] And so I was talking with someone and I said, Well, the only way when I understand my understanding tells me that I'm a sinner and I'm in desperate need of a savior and there's nothing good within me. [00:40:18] And I have to look outward to Christ. [00:40:22] And so that's a way you can utilize their language, and all of a sudden, and they'll get that because the Bible says they will because they know God and they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. [00:40:32] So you have to be calm. [00:40:34] There's also an aspect, too, of presuppositionalism where we have our pre commitments, they have their pre commitments, unbeknownst that they're imaging God. [00:40:42] So we do have some kind of a higher ground and a vantage point. [00:40:46] So that's, yeah, that's just something where you can utilize that. [00:40:49] They know that they know God, they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness, and they know they're sinners. [00:40:55] Regardless of whether they believe it or not, the word of God is a two edged sword. [00:41:02] And just because someone is holding a broadsword over you, so I don't believe in that sword, doesn't mean, like, okay. [00:41:08] I think Bodhi Bakker said, I don't believe in that sword. [00:41:10] Okay. [00:41:11] Right. [00:41:13] No, that's good. [00:41:16] I like what you said, you know, Walton Martin saying, you know, if you believe in Jesus, which one? [00:41:22] It always makes me think of, I know I can't endorse the movie. [00:41:25] It's not really an appropriate movie, but there was one scene that I just, I can't get out of my head. [00:41:29] I watched it when I was a lot younger, but Talladega Nights, right? [00:41:33] Jesus, I like my Jesus to wear a tuxedo t shirt, says he's both formal and he likes to party. [00:41:37] I like my Jesus to be on the front row of a Led Zeppelin. [00:41:41] And it's this blasphemous, ridiculous scene, but there's a lot of truth when you think of our culture today that just everybody has their different version of Jesus. === Public Record Versus Private Revelation (10:31) === [00:41:50] Which one? [00:41:51] Which one? [00:41:53] Okay, so all that being said, what would you do if, you know, when, because I get this accusation from time to time, what do you do when someone says, Christianity is a cult. [00:42:06] What are some clear distinctions that you could equip our listeners with to say, here are some tenets of Christianity that are in absolute contradiction to the tenets of a cult? [00:42:16] Right. [00:42:16] So, one of the things, too, is that we are in a postmodern culture. [00:42:20] So, words aren't much about substance and fact as much as they are impact words about how it makes you feel. [00:42:28] So, it's an emotional impact word versus something that's intellectually, this is how. [00:42:34] You are supposed to. [00:42:35] This is how it is. [00:42:37] So, one of the ways is that every cult, definitively, they veer away from some sort of form of orthodoxy, and they always appeal to some form of private, esoteric revelation without any sort of external verification. [00:42:56] They're the ultimate pinpoint and authority. [00:42:59] So, one of the amazing things is that God's revelation is always consistent in Christianity with his character. [00:43:06] So, God is triune, he's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. [00:43:09] So, his very nature, when we talk, Is congruent with the standards that he gives for revelation and truth, talking about everything has to be confirmed by two to three independent lines of testimony and witness. [00:43:20] So, God's very own self revealing nature is two to three independent, you have two to three independent witnesses. [00:43:27] Love it. [00:43:28] And so, what you end up seeing within biblical Christianity is not just myths or some sort of weird abstract vision, but we're talking about historical places. [00:43:41] Historical people written over thousands of years that were, as Bodhi Bakla would say, this is God's revelation of the Bible, which we would say is the ultimate standard because every cult is a distortion of that, is that it's a reliable collection of historical documents that was written by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses who witnessed supernatural events in fulfillment of specific prophecy. [00:44:08] So, all of that being said, one of the definitive characteristics is that. [00:44:13] The Bible is an open book. [00:44:15] It's an open and public record of these events that transpired in the public sphere. [00:44:22] And so, in that way, that would be something that would be alternative. [00:44:26] We're not saying, hey, we have this secret, hidden, esoteric knowledge. [00:44:30] This is something that was privately revealed to me. [00:44:32] No, I have a relationship with the living God, but you know what? [00:44:36] It's not just because I say so. [00:44:38] This is because I have a standard that I appeal to that's an external, reliable collection of historical documents. [00:44:45] Like, why do you think of all as much? [00:44:47] As you know, just jumping into the evidential world, as many manuscripts and evidence that we have in regards to the Bible, why is it the most attacked historical book on earth? [00:44:58] As far as any book of history, why is it the most scrutinized, the most attacked? [00:45:03] How come no one holds the writings of Plato or Socrates to the same standard of scrutiny that they do to the Bible, even though we have something with it for a century? [00:45:13] So, yeah, there's that aspect, and one of the things you also see too is that. [00:45:17] In with real Christian apologetics and the real Christian worldview, especially if you just look at the first century, you would see not this sort of isolation of members you know, did we're going to isolate you from everyone else and indoctrinate you? [00:45:35] No, we are going to go out to the world and we're going to challenge every single worldview out there and tear down every stronghold and set it and you know, and take every thought captive against anything that sets itself against the knowledge of God. [00:45:48] I mean, you see, Paul, for example, when he's going. [00:45:51] To Athens, and he is reasoning with the other worldviews. [00:45:55] He's going and talking to the Stoics, the philosophers, to going to the synagogues and engaging them in the public sphere. [00:46:02] Cults don't do that. [00:46:03] They try and isolate people, they try and appeal towards secret, hidden esoteric knowledge, and they don't allow questioning. [00:46:11] They don't allow that. [00:46:13] And real, honestly, like real Christianity, it allows for that. [00:46:17] Like, bring the biggest thoughts, wrestle with this. [00:46:21] This is something that would be that would be like that would be a big aspect as well, too. [00:46:25] And so, I think, yeah, I think, and ultimately, like the biggest challenge that I honestly at some point we are going to dedicate an episode to this because when you have someone who's atheist or agnostic, and we get this, and I don't know, sometimes we sort of make fun of it, but I want to do more than that just because we are limited for time. [00:46:44] But we consistently get reviews on iTunes called We're Another Cult Talking About Cults, and it's like, wow, this is so stunningly original. [00:46:53] This is that. [00:46:54] You know, it gets kind of old after the 50th time, or however many times we've gotten reviews like that. [00:47:00] But the reality is that for someone who is an atheist or a naturalist, how do you even give an accounting for what is or isn't a cult? [00:47:12] What exactly is wrong with my brain fizzing a certain level of knowledge, which is just my perception of the world in which I was born? [00:47:23] And once I'm blind, pitiless, and difference, and And yeah, like how can you give an accounting for, like, what's the ethic? [00:47:33] What ethic am I violating? [00:47:34] Or what ethic was Jim Jones violating when his brain was fizzing the way that it was and got 915 other people's brains to fizz and take down this other fizz called potassium cyanide and killed 915 people in Jonestown, Guyana? [00:47:51] Now, I have a basis as a Christian to say, yes, those people were image bearers of God. [00:47:55] The one that says, do not bear false witness, thou shalt not murder. [00:48:00] Love does no harm to its neighbor. [00:48:02] There's rules in which, in the world that God created, and you have to live by that. [00:48:09] And if you don't have that standard, well, you're not going to be able to give an ultimate accounting for that. [00:48:13] And I think that's one of the reasons why most of the quote unquote experts in regard to the world of cults, whereas Rick Allen Ross or Steve Hassan, while they can give sort of a general explanation of the sociological and psychological manipulation and sometimes the deprogramming that people. Have to do, they don't have an ultimate point of reference where they can give an accounting for why that's even an issue to begin with or why. [00:48:44] Because the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original. [00:48:51] So those are just some of my initial thoughts, but ultimately I would argue that the Christian worldview is a public record versus a private revelation, which is the difference of every single occult, occultic leader. [00:49:05] And then also to argue the impossibility of the contrary. [00:49:09] There's no other worldview that can give a fully holistic explanation for the world of the cults and the counterfeits. [00:49:17] As Walter Martin would say, the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original. [00:49:22] And no other secularist who approaches that has the ability to do that because they're not giving, they're not paying homage to the ultimate authority, which is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ. [00:49:33] So, Andrew. [00:49:34] Yeah, I do. [00:49:35] I got nothing to say, Jerry, bro. [00:49:37] I want you to drop my. [00:49:39] Okay. [00:49:39] Let's go up to the mic. [00:49:41] No, praise God. [00:49:41] There's nothing I can't do. [00:49:43] Well, guys, I really appreciate your time. [00:49:45] I know that you've probably already given me enough. [00:49:48] Any final thoughts that you'd like to add? [00:49:51] No, I just think that this topic is incredibly unique. [00:49:56] It's a very unique place that we've been placed in. [00:49:58] I think, especially if you are a Christian, I would say if you don't have it, get Dr. Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults. [00:50:06] I would say just look up his lecture, listen to his lectures online. [00:50:09] He was really speaking about a lot of these different new cults, new religions, things in regards to UFOs, extrasensory perception. [00:50:20] He was so ahead of its time. [00:50:22] I would guess they get the Kingdom of the Cults. [00:50:24] Just look, just start listening to his lectures on YouTube. [00:50:27] Like, get equipped because this is the Kingdom of the Cults is only going to explode given the state of the world right now. [00:50:34] I mean, historically, cults have always exploded during times of uncertainty. [00:50:40] And if 2020, that was one thing I thought through. [00:50:43] I said, I don't know where this is all headed, but this is just going to be the nuclear fallout of all this, it is going to be just a plethora of brand new cult leaders. [00:50:55] As you mentioned a long time ago, a bunch of little Jim Joneses running around. [00:51:00] And as Christians, we need to be able to give an apologetic and give an answer for people. [00:51:07] Otherwise, they may end up face down somewhere else, another jungle, and another Jonestown. [00:51:12] This is serious stuff. [00:51:14] We have the slogan and the teacher, bad theology hurts people, but it's a serious thing. [00:51:18] You know, outside of just the show, I'm a deacon and I've had to sit in all meetings and hearing horrific stories of people who've gone through horrific spiritual abuse. [00:51:28] And, you know, you see the wherewithal. [00:51:32] Like, this is serious. [00:51:33] This is a serious game. [00:51:35] This is not something to play around with. [00:51:37] There's a reason, you know, when you think about the apologetic answer in 1 Peter 3 15. [00:51:43] You know, give an answer for everyone with the hope that is in you, but with meekness, gentleness, and compassion, or reverence, the way that it says it, and respect is that that's really like that's like the warning. [00:51:55] That's the warning on a desert. [00:51:57] The desert eagle has a warning label, and that's really what it is. [00:52:00] I mean, that's you're wielding something that's powerful, and you need to do it with carefulness as well. [00:52:06] And that's what the cult leaders do. [00:52:08] They ignore the instructions, they wield it in a way that the instructions don't say, and it harms people. [00:52:15] So, as Christians, we have even more of a responsibility to do it in the correct way. [00:52:19] So, those are my thoughts. [00:52:20] Anything else you have to say, Andrew? [00:52:21] No, brother. === Wielding Power With Carefulness (00:36) === [00:52:22] That was beautiful. [00:52:24] That's good. [00:52:24] Great. [00:52:25] Great, guys. [00:52:25] Thanks so much for coming on the show. [00:52:27] I really appreciate it. [00:52:28] God bless. [00:52:29] Awesome, man. [00:52:29] God bless you, too. [00:52:30] Thank you, man. [00:52:31] Awesome. [00:52:32] As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store. [00:52:38] To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.comslash offer. [00:52:43] We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book. [00:52:45] Am I truly saved? [00:52:47] If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God, this would be a great resource. [00:52:52] As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.comslash offer. [00:52:57] And thank you for your generous support.