NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Alcohol, Marijuana, & The Law Of God
Aired: 2021-07-07
Duration: 50:44


=== Sin Versus Crime (09:19) ===

[00:00:00]  On today's episode of Theology Applied, I'm privileged to have as a special guest Pastor Doug Wilson from Moscow, Idaho.
[00:00:07]  Our topic was weed, alcohol, and the Christian.
[00:00:11]  Pastor Doug Wilson has just finished publishing a book called Devoured by Cannabis, and in this episode, he shares some of the profound insights with us.
[00:00:19]  Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
[00:00:23]  This is Theology Applied.
[00:00:28]  Today, I'm privileged to have on Theology Applied as a guest, Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho.
[00:00:36]  We've had Doug before talking about Christians in California.
[00:00:40]  But today we're going to discuss another topic.
[00:00:43]  We're going to discuss alcohol, marijuana, and the Christian.
[00:00:48]  Pastor Doug has just finished writing a book called Devoured by Cannabis Weed, Liberty, and Legalization.
[00:00:54]  And from what I've been able to ascertain by following his ministry, in the past it seems as though he was for, or at least okay, had a permissible attitude towards the legalization.
[00:01:07]  Of marijuana, not the use of recreational marijuana, but the legalization.
[00:01:11]  But it seems as though you've changed your tune on that particular topic.
[00:01:14]  So, Doug, could you just tell us where you're at on the topic of marijuana?
[00:01:20]  Yeah, I used to have more, in terms of the legalization of it, I used to have more of a libertarian take where I thought it was sinful.
[00:01:30]  I thought it was a sinful abuse of God's creation to get high.
[00:01:38]  And I thought the church should discipline, and I thought family should discipline, but I didn't think there ought to be criminal penalties.
[00:01:48]  I now think that it should be decriminalized, but not legalized.
[00:01:54]  Okay.
[00:01:56]  So I don't think that an 18 year old kid who's caught with some marijuana should be sent off to the state penitentiary to live with a bunch of hardened criminals.
[00:02:07]  I don't think that's a good thing.
[00:02:09]  Solution.
[00:02:10]  He would survive though if he just says that he's a woman, then he could be thrown in the female penitent to treat him.
[00:02:16]  He'd probably do okay.
[00:02:16]  There's all sorts of options, yeah.
[00:02:20]  So, what I propose at the end of this book, I expected some pushback from Christians on that question because there's a strong libertarian streak among conservative Christians.
[00:02:37]  Sure, it's a sin, but let's not make it criminal.
[00:02:41]  There's a difference between a sin and a crime.
[00:02:45]  But I've been surprised since the release of this book, I've been surprised at how much pushback I've been getting from Christians who think that smoking weed is okay, that there's no sin associated with it.
[00:03:00]  And that's part of the reason for not wanting to have it legalized, I'm starting to realize how many people use as their moral compass what is against the law.
[00:03:13]  In an earthly sense, instead of taking their cues from scripture.
[00:03:19]  So, I do agree that there's a difference between a sin and a crime.
[00:03:25]  Covetousness is a sin, but nobody wants it to be a crime.
[00:03:29]  Lust is a sin, but it shouldn't be a crime.
[00:03:32]  Nobody wants the lust police, right?
[00:03:35]  So, there is a difference between a sin and a crime.
[00:03:40]  And what I propose at the end of this book is that we have drug courts.
[00:03:44]  Where, if someone is convicted of possession or selling or whatever, they go to a drug court and they either pay a fine or they go to rehab.
[00:03:57]  Right?
[00:03:57]  Okay.
[00:03:59]  And that's it.
[00:04:01]  Okay.
[00:04:02]  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:04:03]  Could you, just for our listeners and for myself as well, could you help to parse out the distinction between criminalization and legalization?
[00:04:11]  You mentioned earlier that one might be okay, but the other not.
[00:04:15]  Yeah.
[00:04:15]  Legalization would be hey, everybody, you can smoke pot for whatever reason, whenever you want, however you want.
[00:04:23]  So in Washington state, right next to us here, recreational use is now lawful, which means that.
[00:04:32]  The use of marijuana, there are no restrictions on it, okay, legally.
[00:04:37]  You can't get in legal trouble for smoking marijuana.
[00:04:42]  That's legalization.
[00:04:43]  Decriminalization means that you could be charged under another category.
[00:04:50]  So a crime would be something like burglary or assault or rape.
[00:04:57]  And jaywalking would be a misdemeanor.
[00:05:01]  It's against the law, but it's not a crime.
[00:05:05]  Okay.
[00:05:06]  Okay.
[00:05:07]  What would you say to the person who pushes back and says, well, we don't, you know, we don't make it illegal to drink Drano under the sink.
[00:05:15]  If a person wants to be stupid, they can be stupid.
[00:05:17]  How would you deal with that?
[00:05:18]  Yeah.
[00:05:19]  If, if, and there's a whole section in this book on that.
[00:05:22]  So the issue is what it boils down to is this principle society has a right to defend itself.
[00:05:32]  Okay.
[00:05:33]  So if someone got drunk, you know, bought a bottle of whiskey, Went home, got drunk, and stayed home, then, under a theonomic republic in Moses' Israel, there would have been no criminal penalties associated with that.
[00:05:51]  Okay?
[00:05:52]  He, whether it was Draino or Johnny Walker or whatever, if it stays home, then it really is none of society's business.
[00:06:03]  Right?
[00:06:04]  But part of the issue is illustrated by drunk driving.
[00:06:09]  Drunk driving is a different matter because now all of society is involved.
[00:06:15]  Right.
[00:06:15]  Okay.
[00:06:16]  So society has a right to defend itself against drunk drivers.
[00:06:22]  It doesn't have a right to defend itself against people getting drunk because there's no need for a defense.
[00:06:30]  We can have a penalty for drunk and disorderly or drunk driving, but if someone got charged because they drove up to their hunting cabin with a six pack and drank too many of them, That shouldn't be against the law, right?
[00:06:49]  And it's not against biblical law.
[00:06:51]  So, this is one of the essential issues in this whole thing.
[00:06:56]  The half life of alcohol in the body, the half life is a matter of hours.
[00:07:04]  Okay.
[00:07:05]  The active ingredient in marijuana, THC, stays in the system for weeks, it doesn't disappear.
[00:07:14]  So, if you have too much to drink, At a party, the next day, the alcohol in your system is gone.
[00:07:24]  That's not the case with marijuana.
[00:07:28]  It's simply not the case.
[00:07:30]  So if I were flying Delta, let's say, and the pilot had had too much to drink two weeks before, but had not had a drink since, it wouldn't be any.
[00:07:47]  Issue with me.
[00:07:49]  But if he had been getting stoned every weekend for a number of weeks before, but hadn't had anything to smoke for a week, there's still a possibility of flashbacks.
[00:08:02]  The drug is still in his system.
[00:08:05]  Okay.
[00:08:07]  And that means that there's no such thing as going up to your cabin and getting stoned out of your gourd and then coming back unaffected.
[00:08:18]  If you're dealing with, Society at all, you're still impaired or potentially impaired.
[00:08:29]  The other thing that goes along with this is that because there's been a great deal of pressure from the public to make this drug legal, politicians are following the pressure.
[00:08:45]  And that means that certain things, you're not allowed to ask certain questions, all right?
[00:08:53]  So, for example, whenever there's a school shooting, everybody wants to know where they get the guns.
[00:09:02]  These are 18 year old boys.
[00:09:04]  Where did they get the guns?
[00:09:05]  What kind of gun is it?
[00:09:07]  Can we make the gun manufacturers liable for it?
[00:09:13]  Nobody is allowed to ask what drugs were the boys on.
[00:09:17]  Right.
[00:09:17]  Okay.

=== Drugs Behind School Shootings (02:32) ===

[00:09:19]  And there are two sorts of things.
[00:09:21]  They could be on.
[00:09:23]  Uh, drugs administered by the school nurse, right?
[00:09:27]  Um, legal medications dispensed by the school nurse.
[00:09:32]  What drugs were those?
[00:09:34]  Virtually every school shooting in the last number of years, virtually all of them, drugs have been involved, and that's not part of the public discussion at all because the public doesn't want to talk about drugs, they want to talk about guns, right?
[00:09:50]  Um, at the same time, how many of these school shooters, how many of these kids smoke pot?
[00:09:58]  Well, there's a strong correlation, particularly with young men, teenage men whose brains are still forming.
[00:10:06]  There's a strong correlation between smoking pot and psychotic episodes.
[00:10:12]  So, when someone goes around the bend and goes postal, as we say, one of the reasonable things is not an accusation.
[00:10:23]  This is what I would do if I were a private detective.
[00:10:26]  This is what I would do if I were a cop on the case.
[00:10:29]  I would ask, Was he smoking pot?
[00:10:33]  All right.
[00:10:34]  There are significant statistical reasons for believing that there's a connection between pot and psychosis.
[00:10:44]  And it's not a one for one correlation, but it's a strong correlation.
[00:10:48]  So, and this is something we accept with other materials.
[00:10:52]  So, let's say you have a person, let's say you have 100 people who smoke a pack of camel cigarettes a day, unfiltered camel cigarettes.
[00:11:03]  Okay.
[00:11:03]  Now, everybody in the country knows that cigarettes cause lung cancer.
[00:11:09]  All right.
[00:11:10]  The surgeon general tells you this on posters, on a pack of cigarettes, that this increases your risk of lung cancer.
[00:11:19]  But if someone smokes a pack of cigarettes a day and they're unfiltered cigarettes, out of 100 people, 15 of them will get lung cancer.
[00:11:30]  85 of them will not get lung cancer.
[00:11:33]  Now, I'm not saying smoking was good for them, but 15 getting lung cancer is statistically significant, and we all know that, right?
[00:11:44]  It doesn't cause lung cancer one for one, but it causes lung cancer a lot.

=== Microdosing Marijuana (08:15) ===

[00:11:51]  I think it's a comparable sort of thing with marijuana and psychosis.
[00:11:56]  Okay.
[00:11:58]  So, does society have a right?
[00:12:03]  Let's say 100 young men in your town say, Hey, we want to start smoking pot every day.
[00:12:10]  And you know that 10% of them are going to go nuts.
[00:12:18]  Hmm.
[00:12:19]  Okay.
[00:12:19]  You know, does society have an interest in that?
[00:12:23]  And I would say yes, there's an interest in that.
[00:12:26]  And it doesn't mean that you lock everybody up forever.
[00:12:30]  It doesn't mean you come down with a heavy hand.
[00:12:32]  It just means that you, the corporate society, has an interest in the case and can express their views on it without exercising tyranny.
[00:12:43]  All right.
[00:12:45]  So, what I would like to see is.
[00:12:49]  A system where if someone is caught possession of marijuana, they go to drug court, they plead guilty, they, if they pay a fine, the money goes into an account that helps pay for people going to rehab, or they can pay no fine and just go to rehab.
[00:13:07]  And if they successfully complete the rehab, then they owe nobody anything.
[00:13:15]  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:13:16]  Well, that's very helpful.
[00:13:18]  I want to compare now alcohol to marijuana because I think the, Hypothetical professing Christian YouTube troll might have a few things to say about that.
[00:13:29]  And so I'd like us to counter that hypothetical devil's advocate.
[00:13:33]  So I got a little bit written here that I want to read and then turn it to you.
[00:13:38]  So for alcohol, the unit of measure, I want to get technical because that's what people do.
[00:13:43]  They're going to get technical and try to make an argument that allows for recreational marijuana use for the Christian.
[00:13:49]  So for alcohol, the unit of measure is what's referred to as the standard drink.
[00:13:54]  That is any drink that contains 14 grams of pure alcohol or 0.6 fluid ounces or 1.2 tablespoons.
[00:14:03]  A standard drink is conventionally defined as the alcohol content of 12 ounces of a 5% alcohol, such as a beer, or 5 ounces of a 12% alcohol, like a glass of wine, or an ounce and a half, a shot, of 40% alcohol, 80 proof.
[00:14:20]  But for marijuana, however, a much lower dosage is needed to induce a state of intoxication.
[00:14:26]  Studies show that intoxication would occur at the ingestion of less than seven milligrams of THC, which would be the equivalent of alcohol and beer, THC and marijuana.
[00:14:38]  And that is approximately the equivalent of four puffs of a marijuana cigarette.
[00:14:43]  So you've already discussed that there's much longer lasting effects, but also there's a much higher potency that you and I, with our size and stature and those sorts of things, we could likely drink three 12 ounce beers and be.
[00:15:01]  Completely fine.
[00:15:03]  Whereas I just, I have not experienced anyone taking one puff, right?
[00:15:10]  Four puffs of a marijuana cigarette and you're intoxicated, according to the data.
[00:15:15]  And so I don't really know anyone who's taking one puff or two puffs to stay beneath that line.
[00:15:21]  How would you respond to someone who says, well, you can drink and not get drunk?
[00:15:25]  Drunkenness is what the Bible condemns.
[00:15:27]  And I'm using marijuana without getting intoxicated, Pastor Doug.
[00:15:31]  Right.
[00:15:32]  So the.
[00:15:34]  Here's the, I think, a straightforward, easy answer for it.
[00:15:40]  In Scripture, if you look at wine, look at alcohol, you can see multiple uses in Scripture where it's lawful.
[00:15:48]  Okay.
[00:15:50]  So in Scripture, you can drink in order to, there's the lawful use of quenching your thirst.
[00:15:59]  All right.
[00:16:00]  There's the lawful use of celebratory, you know, toasting at a wedding.
[00:16:05]  There's the lawful, lawful sacramental use.
[00:16:11]  This is the cup of the new covenant.
[00:16:13]  So, you have numerous lawful uses of wine or strong drink in Scripture.
[00:16:23]  There's one use that's prohibited in Scripture, and that's where you drink to get the buzz.
[00:16:30]  You drink, Paul says, be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess or dissipation.
[00:16:37]  So, there's one use of alcohol that is prohibited.
[00:16:43]  Now, that one use of alcohol that's prohibited is the only reason.
[00:16:48]  That people smoke dope.
[00:16:51]  Okay.
[00:16:51]  It's for the effect.
[00:16:53]  Now, I grant that someone, in order to, let's say I was debating someone on this subject in Washington where it was legal, and my debating opponent lit up a joint and took one puff and then put it out and then said, Did I just sin?
[00:17:13]  Okay.
[00:17:14]  I would say, No, you didn't sin with the marijuana cigarette.
[00:17:18]  You sinned in the point you're trying to make, but you didn't sin with the marijuana cigarette.
[00:17:24]  Because a microdose of marijuana is not a problem.
[00:17:29]  If someone sprinkled marijuana leaves on their head, that's not a problem.
[00:17:34]  If someone touched a joint to their forehead, that's not a problem.
[00:17:37]  If someone took a microdose of smoke into their lungs such that it had no effect, that's not a sin.
[00:17:46]  There's also no point.
[00:17:49]  Nobody takes a puff of a marijuana cigarette because it pairs nicely with the fish.
[00:17:57]  Yeah, no, I agree.
[00:17:59]  Now, you did say the buzz.
[00:18:01]  You mentioned the term buzz.
[00:18:02]  And I find it funny because anytime I've been in the presence of unbelievers, what Christians call buzzed, unbelievers just call drunk.
[00:18:15]  Have you ever noticed that?
[00:18:17]  You know, the Christian will say, I'm tipsy.
[00:18:20]  Whereas the unbeliever who doesn't have anything, Ethical pitfall to avoid is completely content to say, Yeah, we got drunk the other night.
[00:18:29]  But this buzz, and maybe you're defining buzz a different way with wine, I just want to point out, and I want to hear your thoughts on this.
[00:18:36]  I think you'll agree.
[00:18:38]  There is a reason why the Christian opts for wine and not Welch's.
[00:18:43]  And so maybe buzz isn't the best word for it, but there is, the Bible speaks to a gladness of heart.
[00:18:49]  So I think of Psalm 104, 14, and 15, it says, You make grass grow for the cattle and make vegetables for humans to use in order to.
[00:18:57]  Get food from the ground, and you make wine to cheer human hearts.
[00:19:02]  And so there is a gladness factor.
[00:19:05]  And so we're not saying, I believe you agree with this, we're not saying that wine is permissible because it can be used to a specific degree to where there are zero effects.
[00:19:15]  We're saying, no, there are mild effects, and those mild effects in the appropriate context, God actually says are good.
[00:19:24]  Would you agree with that?
[00:19:26]  Absolutely.
[00:19:26]  So, wine, when someone says, what does that passage mean, wine to gladden the heart of man?
[00:19:32]  What I think of is a wedding banquet with the father of the bride toasting everyone, and it wouldn't be the same if he did it with lemonade.
[00:19:42]  Right, right.
[00:19:44]  Yeah.
[00:19:45]  I agree.
[00:19:47]  Okay, great.
[00:19:48]  Let me see.
[00:19:49]  I've got a couple more questions here.
[00:19:52]  In light of the continuing rise of demonic ideologies such as socialism, communism, Marxism, this cultural Marxism kind of shifting from economics to identity politics and race.
[00:20:04]  But also critical race theory coming out of that.

=== Independent Freedom Defined (06:37) ===

[00:20:07]  How serious is the issue of America's fascination with marijuana?
[00:20:12]  Because I think some people might say, why now, Doug?
[00:20:14]  Why write a whole book on this when it seems like the country is going to hell in a handbasket with much more serious threats?
[00:20:22]  Why is marijuana such a serious issue?
[00:20:26]  Or is it that serious of an issue?
[00:20:28]  Or perhaps we could ask the question like this Is there a correlation?
[00:20:32]  Because I think there might be.
[00:20:33]  Is there a correlation between the state's insistence of legalizing?
[00:20:37]  Recreational use of marijuana and every other tenant of their liberal agenda that they're trying to cram through.
[00:20:44]  Yeah.
[00:20:44]  One of my jokes is that socialists want a nation of pot smokers because they need people who can follow their arguments.
[00:20:55]  That's good.
[00:20:56]  Yeah.
[00:20:56]  So, yes, I think there's a connection.
[00:21:01]  Let's say I'm an evil dictator.
[00:21:06]  Okay.
[00:21:06]  I want to take over, I want to seize power.
[00:21:09]  I want to run the country for my own designs.
[00:21:12]  What kind of a population would I prefer?
[00:21:17]  Would I prefer a nation of pot smokers if I'm going to try and take over?
[00:21:22]  Or would I prefer a nation of independent businessmen who get up at six in the morning and go to work and work hard?
[00:21:32]  Okay.
[00:21:32]  Well, I want the pot smokers.
[00:21:35]  The pot smokers are going to be easier.
[00:21:38]  They're going to be easier to bribe, they're going to be easier to manipulate.
[00:21:42]  They're going to be easier to lie to.
[00:21:45]  Okay.
[00:21:46]  So it's really interesting because both in America today, both the left and the right are interested in liberty and freedom, but they have very different conceptions of liberty and freedom.
[00:22:04]  So the left wants me to have freedom and liberty to look at pornography, to smoke dope.
[00:22:13]  To engage in sexual intercourse with whoever I want.
[00:22:16]  They want me to have that kind of liberty.
[00:22:19]  But all of those liberties that they want me to have, I could participate in in a six by eight prison cell.
[00:22:29]  Right.
[00:22:30]  Okay.
[00:22:31]  I can read porn in a prison cell.
[00:22:33]  I can use drugs in a prison cell.
[00:22:35]  I can, you know, so they want me to have the sorts of liberty, to have the sorts of liberties that slaves might be given.
[00:22:48]  Okay.
[00:22:49]  Now, the right conservatives, what does liberty mean to them?
[00:22:54]  Liberty means for a free man, it means being able to move anywhere in the country you want to without a vaccine passport to start to build a little shop where you start manufacturing widgets that you sell to the people who want to buy widgets and you sell them for a price that they're willing to pay and that you're willing to part with them for.
[00:23:16]  And you can keep the profits and then you can hire whoever you want.
[00:23:21]  And then you can pull up stakes three years later and move your business to another part of the country.
[00:23:28]  That kind of liberty cannot be exercised in a six by eight prison cell.
[00:23:34]  Right.
[00:23:35]  But that's because it's true liberty, actual liberty, not pretend liberty.
[00:23:41]  So G.K. Chesterton said it well over, I think, a century or more ago.
[00:23:46]  He said that free love, talking about sexual license, he said free love is the first and most obvious bribe that can be offered to a slave.
[00:23:58]  So, what you want to do is say, are these people a free people who are functioning independently of the government, or are these people people who are being bought off by the government with easy access to EBT cards, welfare payments, subsidy payments, easy access to marijuana, substance abuse?
[00:24:27]  What's actually going on?
[00:24:29]  Yeah, I believe there's a I believe that there's a deep connection between the moral laxity that we're seeing and the kind of economics that people want to cram down our throats.
[00:24:45]  I completely agree.
[00:24:46]  As you were speaking, it just made me think of 1 Thessalonians 4, starting in verse 11 and 12.
[00:24:54]  It says, We urge you, brothers, backing up to the second half of verse 10, 1 Thessalonians 4, 10.
[00:25:02]  We urge you, brothers, to do this.
[00:25:03]  All the more and more, and to aspire to live quietly and to mind your own affairs, your own business.
[00:25:09]  So, you spoke of business to work with your hands, so working, starting a business, starting schools, publishing houses, those kinds of things, as we instructed you.
[00:25:20]  And then, verse 12 is insightful, as most scripture tends to be, all scripture, so that you may walk properly before outsiders and be dependent on no one.
[00:25:30]  And so, I think as you're talking about both the political left and the political right, they're different views of liberty.
[00:25:36]  What actually constitutes true freedom?
[00:25:40]  The types of freedom that the political left seem to constantly be wanting to progress in our nation are the types of freedom that ironically cause people to become less independent, or rather more dependent upon the state.
[00:25:54]  Where the kinds of freedom that conservatives and true freedom loving people aspire towards is it's not just the freedom to do what I want, it's freedom from dependency on the state.
[00:26:07]  It's freedom from It's an independent freedom.
[00:26:10]  It's the freedom to be able to live on my own, provide for my family, make certain prudent decisions without incessant restrictions.
[00:26:20]  And so it's, I think of, you know, the left calls it freedom, the right calls it freedom.
[00:26:25]  But I think it's perhaps helpful to talk about independent freedom versus dependent freedom, a freedom that only exists so long as you're dependent on the government to provide for your every whim and need.
[00:26:39]  Would you agree with that?
[00:26:41]  Absolutely.
[00:26:42]  Yeah.
[00:26:43]  So let me ask you this.

=== Obedience To Existing Authorities (11:54) ===

[00:26:44]  So you started in the beginning by, you mentioned that infamous phrase that we hear so often from Christians, the law of the land.
[00:26:51]  And you said that, you know, part of your concern with the legalization of marijuana is that Christians take their cues from the state, unfortunately, rather than the scripture.
[00:27:02]  And so the law of the land, I hear that, you know, that phrase used so often.
[00:27:08]  And I know that you have also, especially in 2020 and 2021 now, With everything that's happened with coronavirus and draconian lockdowns from the state.
[00:27:19]  Where in Scripture, could you help us?
[00:27:22]  Where in Scripture, is that Romans 13?
[00:27:24]  Where would we get this phrase, the law of the land?
[00:27:27]  And how is that?
[00:27:28]  Because people would say, I'm obeying God's law, aka the scripture, by submitting to the law of the land.
[00:27:35]  Why is that wrongheaded?
[00:27:38]  Okay, so it's wrongheaded for a number of reasons.
[00:27:44]  And we need a lesson in basic civics first.
[00:27:49]  So Romans 13 was written to the church at Rome.
[00:27:54]  That was the capital city of a pagan empire that had no believing laws, no believing traditions, no believing institutions at all.
[00:28:06]  Okay, so it was a Christian church starting from scratch.
[00:28:12]  That means that when Paul arrived in Rome, he didn't start circulating clipboards and petitions to get the gladiatorial games banned.
[00:28:21]  Right, he had bigger fish to fry.
[00:28:26]  What Paul wanted to do was plant churches.
[00:28:30]  Now, the planting of these churches all over the Roman Empire is what resulted in the gladiatorial games being banned three centuries later, but it was going to take some time.
[00:28:43]  Okay?
[00:28:44]  So Paul was in a very different situation than we are in.
[00:28:51]  All right?
[00:28:51]  Because the existing authority, when he wrote Romans 13 and Someone said, What are these existing authorities that you're talking about?
[00:29:01]  He would say, The emperor, the senate, the here are the laws, this is what I'm dealing with, and these laws are all fundamentally pagan, they're built on wrong assumptions.
[00:29:12]  But these are the people you should pay attention to right now, okay?
[00:29:17]  Now, a Christian in the 21st century, when a Christian asks, Who are the existing authorities?
[00:29:26]  What are the existing authorities right now?
[00:29:28]  Yeah.
[00:29:29]  When the Christian responds, well, the emperor is these, you know, whoever the guy on TV is telling me what to do.
[00:29:37]  Fauci's the existing authority.
[00:29:39]  Or, you know, I saw a great meme where it says, you know, I believe the science, and the retort is, no, you believe the television.
[00:29:50]  Right.
[00:29:52]  So there's this talking head on television telling you that this is the law.
[00:29:57]  The governor comes on and says, everybody has to stay in the basement.
[00:30:02]  Or you all have to stand six feet apart, or you can't go out without wearing a mask.
[00:30:07]  Okay?
[00:30:09]  Now, when the Christian talks that way, as though the governor of Illinois or the governor of Michigan or the governor of California is in the same relationship to him that the Roman emperor was in to the average inhabitant of Rome, what they're doing there is they're ignoring the actual existing authority.
[00:30:34]  The actual existing authority is the Constitution.
[00:30:38]  Right.
[00:30:39]  Okay.
[00:30:40]  So, since the Apostle Paul wrote those words, we've had 2,000 years of Christian history, church planting, civilization forming, bringing our laws and our customs and our constitutions into closer conformity with Scripture.
[00:30:58]  All right.
[00:30:59]  That means if the President of the United States or the President of some intergalactic Came on the television and said, Everybody has to wear a pink beanie tomorrow because I said so.
[00:31:17]  Okay.
[00:31:19]  Now, the reason I would disobey him is not because I think it's okay to disobey the existing authorities.
[00:31:26]  It's because I don't think it's okay for him to disobey the existing authorities.
[00:31:30]  That's right.
[00:31:32]  Yeah.
[00:31:33]  Right.
[00:31:33]  So the president has no authority to tell me to wear a pink beanie.
[00:31:39]  He has no authority.
[00:31:41]  It's a shame because you would look fantastic in a pink beanie, Pastor Duck.
[00:31:45]  I think it'd be a good look for you.
[00:31:47]  It'd be fabulous.
[00:31:48]  Yeah.
[00:31:49]  It'd be fabulous.
[00:31:51]  So.
[00:31:54]  When someone says you must do thus and such, the response ought to be by what standard are you telling me?
[00:32:03]  What authority are you appealing to when you're telling me to do this?
[00:32:08]  So, when our governor, when the governor of Idaho declared an emergency and declared a lockdown on the basis of his gubernatorial powers to declare an emergency, I went and read the Idaho code.
[00:32:24]  And he did not have the authority.
[00:32:27]  To require what he was requiring of us.
[00:32:32]  Okay, now, so here's the just to make it make the problem a very simple one and to stay with the illustration of the pink beanie.
[00:32:40]  If the president says you must wear a pink beanie, and I go look at the Constitution and I see that James Madison had the foresight to include, and under no circumstances may the president tell you to wear a pink beanie.
[00:32:55]  Okay, I can read.
[00:32:57]  I have a copy of the Constitution.
[00:32:59]  I read this, and then I look at the declaration the president just made.
[00:33:05]  Right.
[00:33:05]  Okay.
[00:33:06]  Now, my objection to him is that he is disobeying Romans 13.
[00:33:14]  I'm not, if I go out without my beanie, I'm not disobeying Romans 13.
[00:33:19]  He is.
[00:33:21]  Right.
[00:33:22]  Right.
[00:33:23]  So the thing that Christians don't recognize is that we have a, um, A highly developed constitutional system, court system, legislative.
[00:33:37]  We've got dual federalism.
[00:33:39]  We've got divided government at the federal level.
[00:33:42]  We have a federal judiciary.
[00:33:45]  We have federal legislative authority in Congress, and that's divided.
[00:33:49]  So there's a House and a Senate.
[00:33:51]  Then we have a federal executive.
[00:33:53]  Then the next layer under is every state has those three functions judicial, legislative, and executive.
[00:34:03]  And All of the states, with the exception of Nebraska, have bicameral legislatures.
[00:34:09]  So, Nebraska has a unicameral legislature.
[00:34:12]  All the rest have bicameral.
[00:34:14]  So, we have divided the authority, the existing authority that is established in our system has been spread thinly and pushed into every nook and cranny.
[00:34:27]  And if the president suddenly stands up and says, I am the king of the universe, and I'm going to require you to start doing these bizarre things.
[00:34:39]  He has no authority to do that, has no authority to say that.
[00:34:43]  He's not an absolute dictator.
[00:34:45]  He's not an absolute despot.
[00:34:47]  He can't do certain things.
[00:34:50]  Now, when he tries to do them, if Christians stand by and let him do those things, then they are the ones disobeying Romans 13 because they are the ones disregarding Paul's instruction to obey the existing authorities.
[00:35:10]  I completely agree.
[00:35:13]  Put another way, you could say that when Paul's writing in his letter to the Romans, one big difference is we're not subjects of a monarchy, but rather citizens of a democratic republic, at least for the time being.
[00:35:28]  And so that's a massive difference.
[00:35:30]  And so you're saying all these human officials, because the highest civil magistrate in our land is not a human official by design, but rather a document.
[00:35:40]  All these other human officials in our land are actually lesser magistrates that ultimately are called to submit to the highest, being the federal and state constitutions.
[00:35:50]  And so, when they're not obeying Romans 13, when a lesser human civil magistrate is in rebellion towards their authority, namely the Constitution, then our rebellion to that lesser civil magistrate is actually submission to the higher authority and righteousness.
[00:36:10]  Would you agree with that?
[00:36:12]  Absolutely.
[00:36:13]  That's absolutely the case.
[00:36:15]  Because you can watch the new president on television, put his hand on the Bible, and raise his hand and swear to uphold an authority that's higher than he is.
[00:36:28]  Right?
[00:36:30]  That's fundamental.
[00:36:31]  That oath means something.
[00:36:33]  Yes, sir.
[00:36:35]  Yep, that's right.
[00:36:38]  So then we could say that Christians, the way that they say the law of the land first, It sounds like we're saying, well, it's wrong headed because it's wrong in its face.
[00:36:46]  Because the first problem is that many Christians in our nation today don't even know what the law of the land is.
[00:36:52]  So, what we've basically ascertained thus far, in my assessment, is many Christians who are going around and incessantly quoting, well, the law of the land, the law of the land, they're not even submitting to the law of the land because they've forgotten or perhaps never learned that the law of the land is actually a higher authority than their governor or their president or anything like that, namely the Constitution.
[00:37:14]  That said, What happens if America falls?
[00:37:19]  I know you're post millennial and so am I, but that doesn't mean America is going to last.
[00:37:23]  But the kingdom is going to continue to advance, but it may advance through other nations.
[00:37:28]  And so, if America falls and we find ourselves in this dire scenario where we don't have a constitution as beautiful as the one we have today, and those freedoms are not there with the highest civil magistrate, it no longer is the constitution of the United States, but it is a human.
[00:37:48]  Official, it is a monarch, and we are subjects, and he is a tyrant and abusing his power.
[00:37:54]  Then, at that level, right?
[00:37:55]  Because we've already, I think, thoroughly discussed the law of the land at one level.
[00:38:00]  But what do you do if you're a Christian in China, for instance, and there's one child policy that they held for a long time, and now everybody, all the nations, are starting to wake up and realizing, uh oh, we actually are going to have the opposite problem than we thought.
[00:38:15]  We're not going to have enough people.
[00:38:16]  And so now there are incentives in different nations for people to have two or three kids.
[00:38:20]  Let's say it's the good old days of China with the one child policy and there's forced abortions and all those kinds of things.
[00:38:27]  And that is, in a very real sense, the law of the land because there is not a higher civil magistrate, earthly authority to appeal to that has righteous laws.
[00:38:37]  Then what?
[00:38:38]  Right.

=== Resisting The State For Christ (12:05) ===

[00:38:39]  All right.
[00:38:39]  So then you're back.
[00:38:41]  Let's say there's a reestablishment of paganism.
[00:38:45]  So we're back in the state of right now we have a Christian heritage.
[00:38:49]  We have Christian structure of our laws.
[00:38:51]  There's a great deal of residual Christianity in our.
[00:38:56]  In our legal framework.
[00:38:57]  But let's say we apostatize fully and we are back in paganism, a resurgent neo paganism has taken over.
[00:39:08]  Okay.
[00:39:09]  Well, then we're in the same position that Paul and Peter were in.
[00:39:14]  And this is where you go and say, okay, the apostle Paul, who wrote Romans 13, was executed by Rome.
[00:39:24]  Right.
[00:39:26]  Okay.
[00:39:27]  Peter.
[00:39:28]  Who wrote 1 Peter 2 on the emperor?
[00:39:32]  Peter escaped from jail.
[00:39:36]  He disappears from the book of Acts, a wanted man.
[00:39:41]  So Paul escaped from King Aretas by running a roadblock.
[00:39:47]  He was lowered from the city wall of Damascus, evading arrest.
[00:39:54]  So basically, what I would do in that situation, what I would encourage other Christians to do, is Maneuver yourself to the point where your resistance is fundamentally revolving around the worship of God and secondarily around issues involved with the Ten Commandments.
[00:40:18]  Yeah, forced abortion, God's moral law.
[00:40:21]  So I wouldn't want in that circumstance the battle to be about some tertiary or further down the list.
[00:40:35]  Constitutional right that you would have in a free republic.
[00:40:40]  I would want to insist first and foremost on our right and obligation to worship God and to preserve and protect life.
[00:40:48]  All right, so that's where I think the.
[00:40:50]  Not so much standing up for, you can maybe categorize it like this, not so much resisting to preserve your own personal comforts and liberties, but rather more so resisting the state to preserve your freedom to be obedient to Christ.
[00:41:08]  Right.
[00:41:09]  So, with that said, so this is the way that I would exegete Romans 13, and I think that you would agree.
[00:41:14]  And I want to hear if you have any extra thoughts with this, because so first we can appeal to the Constitution because we do live in a nation with a Christian heritage and that was working from the scripture as these documents were written, and these documents supersede in terms of law of the land, in terms of authority, human.
[00:41:33]  And Paul, yes, and Paul did that to the extent that he had rights as a Roman citizen.
[00:41:38]  He wasn't shy at all about using them.
[00:41:41]  Right.
[00:41:42]  No, yeah, you're right.
[00:41:42]  Like, do you not know that I'm a Roman citizen and they're afraid and then they just want to release him quietly?
[00:41:48]  And he's like, no, no, no, no.
[00:41:49]  You're going to publicly admit that you're wrong on this one.
[00:41:52]  Yeah, you're going to come down here and escort us out.
[00:41:54]  That's right.
[00:41:55]  He holds their feet to the fire.
[00:41:57]  So, Romans 13, the way that I would execute it is like this.
[00:42:00]  And I, you know, if you want to push back, if you disagree, or perhaps you just have something to add, I've written this.
[00:42:07]  Therefore, whoever resists the authorities, resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
[00:42:12]  I'm reading the text as is for now.
[00:42:16]  We might say that Christ, not Caesar, is head of the church.
[00:42:26]  You could even say Christ, not Caesar, is head of the state, whether they acknowledge him or not.
[00:42:34]  But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is a servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
[00:42:43]  Therefore, one must be in subjection.
[00:42:45]  Now, what I've written is this.
[00:42:47]  Notice the text does not say, Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority?
[00:42:50]  Then do whatever he says, whether it's morally right or wrong, and you will have his approval, for he is an autonomous agent working for his own benefit.
[00:42:59]  Instead, the text says, Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority?
[00:43:03]  Then do what is good, that is, what is objectively good according to God's unchanging standard.
[00:43:08]  By what standard?
[00:43:09]  And you will receive his approval, his being back to the civil magistrate, for he is.
[00:43:14]  Why are you going to receive the civil magistrate's approval?
[00:43:17]  Because he works for God, he's God's servant.
[00:43:19]  That is, he works for God and is obligated to function within God's parameters for civil authorities.
[00:43:26]  And in so far as he does that, it is for your good.
[00:43:28]  That is your true and lasting good in accordance with what God calls good.
[00:43:33]  Unfortunately, Romans 13 has been frequently misused by cowardly pastors, and their congregants have picked up on that discipleship, seeking to justify their sinful compliance and cowardice.
[00:43:45]  Is there anything that you would disagree with or something you would add?
[00:43:48]  Nope.
[00:43:49]  I agree with that entirely.
[00:43:50]  Amen.
[00:43:51]  Great.
[00:43:52]  Amen.
[00:43:53]  Yeah.
[00:43:53]  So I think that's so, first, We live in America.
[00:43:57]  We're not subjects of a monarchy, but we are citizens of a democratic republic.
[00:44:01]  Secondly, if America falls and we revert back to a pagan state, even in that scenario, we're ultimately called to do what God commands.
[00:44:12]  And this isn't saying, you know, would you have no fear of the one who rules over you?
[00:44:15]  Then make him happy by doing whatever he says, whether it's in accordance with God's law or not.
[00:44:21]  That's not in the text.
[00:44:22]  That's not Romans 13.
[00:44:23]  So even if we weren't in America, so we'd say, point A, see the Constitution.
[00:44:28]  And in a worst case scenario, Then see the Bible.
[00:44:32]  And point A, we should see the Bible also.
[00:44:34]  And the Constitution is the attempt to mirror the Scripture and God's moral law and the Ten Commandments on the courthouse and all that.
[00:44:41]  If we don't have a Constitution, we're in a pagan state, see the Bible.
[00:44:45]  My last question, I guess, on this topic would be okay, so we're going to prioritize, we're going to do some theological triage, some civil resistance triage here for the Christian.
[00:44:58]  And we're going to, first, we're going to hold to worship and God's moral law.
[00:45:02]  That's where we're going to resist the strongest if we're in that pagan state that's telling us to, you know, forced abortions and those kinds of things.
[00:45:10]  At what point, like our own nation and our history, at what point is it appropriate to resist with things like taxation?
[00:45:21]  To say, no, that's, you know, the state has far past, you know, competing with what God demands in the 10%.
[00:45:28]  And I know that I think I got this from you that anytime the state rivals, you know, how much did the state tax?
[00:45:33]  Well, probably less than what God requires.
[00:45:35]  So less than 10%.
[00:45:38]  And depending where you live in the nation, 30, 40, and what economic bracket you fall into.
[00:45:44]  At what point can Christians resist righteously?
[00:45:49]  It's still in submission ultimately to God's law and not just being rebels without a cause.
[00:45:55]  Can they resist righteously on things that don't impede worship?
[00:45:59]  Or maybe they do by way of implication.
[00:46:01]  Maybe that's the answer, but they don't directly impede our worship and obedience to God's.
[00:46:06]  10 Commandments, the Decalogue, but they are tyranny nonetheless.
[00:46:12]  Right.
[00:46:14]  Right.
[00:46:14]  So, what I would urge Christians, whenever it gets to the point of resistance, to whatever extent possible, submit yourself.
[00:46:27]  You don't want to function like an isolated, atomistic scoff law, as though you're the only one that makes any decisions.
[00:46:37]  In Calvin's book four, Of the institutes.
[00:46:43]  Calvin begins reasoning, begins laying out the framework for the doctrine of the lesser magistrates.
[00:46:50]  So I would much prefer, if I'm going to engage in tax resistance, I would much prefer to resist the federal government by submitting to the governor of my state or submitting to the mayor.
[00:47:05]  The governor and the mayor are lesser magistrates.
[00:47:09]  So if the governor of Idaho said, for example, we believe.
[00:47:14]  That you're collecting taxes for unconstitutional and immoral purposes, and I'm urging all Idahoans not to send in their forms this year, I would be right there.
[00:47:28]  Okay?
[00:47:29]  Now, when the situation is dire, sometimes, let's say it's a matter of survival, if you give the Midianites all of your grain, you're going to starve, and you need to feed your family.
[00:47:49]  That's why Gideon was in the wine vat threshing his grain in there.
[00:47:55]  He was threshing his grain in hiding.
[00:47:58]  Okay.
[00:47:59]  So I think it's appropriate to resist, to conduct tax resistance on your own authority if it's a matter of survival.
[00:48:10]  Earlier than that, if it's a matter of convenience or convenience is not the right word, but preference.
[00:48:22]  I would only organize together with other believers, ideally under an established governmental authority who's willing to defend you against the higher encroaching authority.
[00:48:37]  Yeah, that's really helpful.
[00:48:38]  So it's not Christ Church going up against it.
[00:48:43]  Let's get in the right sphere here with the spheres of sovereignty.
[00:48:49]  Do we have anyone in our church community who fears the Lord, who's a Christian brother, who.
[00:48:54]  Also, who's also in the civil, he is a civil magistrate.
[00:48:59]  He's in the state, in that sphere, and let's work through that avenue.
[00:49:03]  And sometimes, as in the case of Gideon, Gideon was a private individual when he was conducting the tax resistance, but he became the leader.
[00:49:14]  You know, he became a judge when the Spirit of the Lord came on him.
[00:49:20]  That's really helpful.
[00:49:22]  So, okay, concluding now, any other further thoughts on.
[00:49:27]  Weed, alcohol, legalization, theonomy, the whole nine yards?
[00:49:32]  Yeah, I believe that societies ought not to make laws, ought not to do anything coercive, including with weed, simply on the matter of convenience or preferences or things like that.
[00:49:46]  I think coercion for the Christian is a big deal.
[00:49:50]  And so I think that no one ought to be coerced into anything unless a scriptural case can be made for it.
[00:49:58]  And that's what I attempt to do in this book.
[00:50:02]  That's great.
[00:50:03]  Yeah, The Freedom of the Conscience.
[00:50:05]  Amen.
[00:50:05]  Well, Doug, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[00:50:08]  It's an honor to have you, and I've benefited so much from your ministry.
[00:50:12]  So thank you very much.
[00:50:13]  Thank you.
[00:50:15]  Pleasure to be with you.
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[00:50:23]  To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.comslash offer.
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[00:50:31]  If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God, this would be a great resource.
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