NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Why Christians Should Avoid The Enneagram
Aired: 2021-04-21
Duration: 50:11


=== New Age Methods in the Church (08:43) ===

[00:00:00]  Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
[00:00:04]  This is Theology Apply.
[00:00:11]  Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries.
[00:00:14]  We have another episode of our podcast and show, Theology Apply.
[00:00:18]  Today, I'm honored to have as a returning guest, Doreen Virtue.
[00:00:22]  If you were with us with her last episode, we talked about New Ageism in general.
[00:00:28]  And we also talked more specifically about yoga and Christians being involved in the practice of.
[00:00:33]  Of yoga and how it's not merely an exercise, but a spiritual practice that Christians should be very cautious and wary about.
[00:00:40]  Today, kind of in that same vein, looking at kind of false religions and false doctrine and kind of cult practices that have seeped their way into the church, today's topic is the Enneagram.
[00:00:53]  And so we're going to focus on why Christians should quit using the Enneagram.
[00:00:57]  And Doreen is going to make a case for that.
[00:01:00]  So, Doreen, before we get started, could you just introduce yourself, your ministry, and some of the relevance with your ministry?
[00:01:06]  You, as an individual, towards the Enneagram, our topic today.
[00:01:10]  Thank you, Pastor Joel, and everyone at Right Response for having me back on.
[00:01:13]  It's an honor.
[00:01:14]  And I'm so excited to talk about this topic because it is one of the new age methods that are creeping into the church and causing division and deception, in my opinion.
[00:01:27]  So let me give my background to back up that statement.
[00:01:30]  So I have a BA and an MA in counseling psychology from Chapman University.
[00:01:37]  And I was a psychotherapist for many years before I was saved.
[00:01:40]  And I studied personality and mental health tests as part of the requirement of getting my degrees.
[00:01:46]  In fact, Chapman requires that you pass mental health tests in order to get a master's degree in psychology there.
[00:01:53]  So I've studied this topic extensively from a secular worldview.
[00:01:58]  And then, as a Christian, since I've been saved, I've been in full time seminary.
[00:02:02]  I'm in my last semester of earning my master's degree in biblical and theological studies.
[00:02:08]  So, I now have a combined view where I can look back at psychology and, in this case, personality tests through a biblical worldview.
[00:02:18]  And I'm here to warn your listeners today that the Enneagram is completely filled with problems and we need to be very aware of it.
[00:02:27]  And as you said, avoid it.
[00:02:30]  Great.
[00:02:31]  Well, thank you for coming on the show.
[00:02:32]  It's an honor to have you.
[00:02:34]  Let's start with this.
[00:02:34]  Just, I don't want to completely presume that all of our listeners may be familiar with the Enneagram.
[00:02:40]  It's become Quite a cult sensation.
[00:02:44]  And so many people probably are familiar and have probably taken a personalized test themselves.
[00:02:51]  But for the few people who have been just diligently studying their Bibles under a rock, you know, and haven't seen the sensation and the popularity of the Enneagram, could you just tell us what the Enneagram is?
[00:03:05]  Absolutely.
[00:03:06]  The Enneagram is a very popular personality test that.
[00:03:13]  That supposedly will give you insight into who you really are, and also is purported to help with relationships, especially marriages.
[00:03:23]  It divides people up into one of nine enneotypes or personality characteristics, and then it gives you subcategories called wings.
[00:03:33]  And so, you're supposed to take this test and identify who you are so you can understand yourself and then understand other people better.
[00:03:41]  Okay.
[00:03:42]  All right.
[00:03:43]  Well, real quick, that just has me thinking what's, you know, kind of getting to the origin of the Enneagram and the dangers of the Enneagram?
[00:03:51]  But another way to phrase that question would just be the way you just defined it and described the Enneagram.
[00:03:57]  What's the key distinction, the difference between the Enneagram and something like Myers Briggs?
[00:04:02]  What's so unique and potentially harmful in regards to the Enneagram from any other personality test?
[00:04:10]  Great question, Pastor Joel.
[00:04:11]  Thank you.
[00:04:12]  I'm here to say that actually, there's not much difference between the Myers Brigg and the Enneagram, and that they should both be avoided.
[00:04:20]  Number one problem is they're both rooted in occultism.
[00:04:24]  So, the Myers Brigg, people might be surprised to learn that it wasn't created by a team of psychologists.
[00:04:29]  It was created by a woman who was a Michigan farmer in the late 1800s, early 1900s, who was a big fan of Carl Jung, J U N G. Carl Jung was a Swiss psychiatrist.
[00:04:43]  From the turn of the century, who was an occultist who attended seances, was really big on trans channeling, and believed in universalism and getting answers from within.
[00:04:58]  In other words, a very secular worldview and combined with occult.
[00:05:03]  So, Catherine Briggs and her daughter, Isabel Briggs Myers, studied, they were both homeschooled, so they didn't study this at any university.
[00:05:13]  I'm a big fan of homeschooling, by the way, but it's relevant to this story.
[00:05:17]  They read Carl Jung books and they decided because Isabel was going to marry a man that Catherine didn't really relate to.
[00:05:26]  So they were going to study her future son in law's personality by coming up with this personality test of extrovert, introvert, egalitarian, et cetera, these four personality continuums that Jung had identified.
[00:05:40]  And that's how the Myers Brig was created through the inspiration of trans channeling and.
[00:05:47]  It's not a psychological test.
[00:05:48]  I can tell you that at Chapman University, through my BA and MA, we did not even mention the Myers Briggs or even look at it because it's not a valid scientific instrument at all.
[00:05:59]  And then the Enneagram, just like Myers Briggs, was born out of trans channeling.
[00:06:04]  And so the innovator of the nine personality types of the Enneagram, his name is Claudio Naranjo.
[00:06:11]  And you've got a clip of him admitting this publicly that he got the inspiration for these nine.
[00:06:17]  Personality types through the process of automatic writing.
[00:06:22]  Now, automatic writing, now this is something that I can attest to as a former New Ager.
[00:06:27]  I was the top selling New Age author before I was saved.
[00:06:31]  Praise Jesus for saving me out of that deception.
[00:06:34]  But what I was doing, Pastor Joel, at the time I was a New Age author, is I was using automatic writing like Claudia Narano, the innovator of the Enneagram, and like Carl Jung.
[00:06:46]  I would sit there and I would pray, but who was I praying to?
[00:06:50]  I don't know at this point.
[00:06:52]  And I would I would ask for messages to come through my pen or my typewriter, my laptop, and I would kind of just go into a trance where I wasn't really aware of what was coming through.
[00:07:04]  And then lo and behold, there would be coherent messages on my paper or on my laptop document.
[00:07:12]  And so that's, and I repent for those products.
[00:07:15]  And I'm, there's some of them still for sale, which I'm always telling people do not buy, destroy them.
[00:07:21]  They're going out of print, praise God.
[00:07:24]  I'm here to attest that those.
[00:07:26]  Automatic writing books that I was involved with.
[00:07:29]  I thought they were from angels, they're from demons.
[00:07:31]  And that's how the Myers Briggs and the Enneagram were born.
[00:07:35]  These are doctrines of demons.
[00:07:37]  And the Bible's very, very clear.
[00:07:39]  I know we're going to get into this more.
[00:07:41]  That we are not to be a part of any ungodly counsel.
[00:07:45]  The advice that the Myers Briggs and the Enneagram seems to be helpful.
[00:07:49]  And that's where people go with New Age methods and New Age teachings they always focus on, oh, this is helpful.
[00:07:57]  It makes me feel good.
[00:07:58]  It makes me understand myself.
[00:08:00]  It seems to help me understand my husband and our marriage is better.
[00:08:04]  But beware a little leaven can contaminate the dough.
[00:08:09]  As we've been warned in Galatians and Jesus warned us, and we see in Genesis 3 that the serpent said, Oh, this fruit will taste good, it will give you secret wisdom, and you'll be like God.
[00:08:20]  That's the same mixture of truth and lies that we see with the Enneagram, with the Myers Brigg, and any new age method.
[00:08:28]  It may make you feel good, but it's ungodly and it should be marked and avoided.
[00:08:35]  Amen.
[00:08:36]  I agree.
[00:08:37]  As you were talking about automatic writing and just kind of describing, defining that practice for us, this.

=== Emptying the Mind of Substance (07:16) ===

[00:08:43]  Basically, just seeking to empty the mind of all cognitive thought, of all rationale, and becoming aware of nothing but awareness itself.
[00:08:53]  And then hoping that from this kind of transcendental stasis, you would somehow begin to channel some kind of content, some kind of writing and communication.
[00:09:04]  It reminded me, and maybe in the future we could do an episode on this because I know you've spoken to this particular topic at great length as well.
[00:09:13]  YouTube channel and with your ministry, but it just reminded me the similarities between the Enneagram and Myers Brigg and how those things came about, but also with centered prayer or the idea of contemplative prayer.
[00:09:35]  This idea that Christians don't recognize, but it's distinctly in opposition to Christianity.
[00:09:42]  Nowhere in Christian thought do we have this idea of emptying the mind.
[00:09:47]  So, to try to make that a virtue.
[00:09:50]  And I think I'm concerned as a pastor that it has been made a virtue in the mind of many Christians.
[00:09:59]  That many people would say that's a key component of my quiet time, of my devotions, that I just want to listen to the Lord.
[00:10:08]  And I understand that the language sounds right.
[00:10:10]  And I think the motive, in many cases, is noble, but it's the wrong practice.
[00:10:16]  It's the wrong.
[00:10:17]  Method that I want, I want a word from the Lord, I want to hear from the Lord.
[00:10:21]  And so I'm, you know, and the verse that always gets quoted is be still and know that I am God.
[00:10:28]  But this stillness, I mean, the very next phrase, be still and know, you know, and know, it's informative, it's knowledge.
[00:10:39]  To be still is to not rely upon ourselves, it's to rid ourselves not of cognitive thought, not of rationale or logic or substance, but rather to rid ourselves of.
[00:10:52]  Of self reliance, of self dependence, independence, our own resting in our own strength, our own ability.
[00:11:01]  And so I'm always reminded of Psalm chapter one, where it talks about the man who delights, the blessed man who delights in the law of God and on God's law, he meditates day and night.
[00:11:13]  And so, meditation, there is a biblical category for Christian meditation, but it's directly in opposition to pagan meditation, meaning that.
[00:11:24]  Christian meditation, meditating on God's law, it's actually the opposite of emptying the mind, but it's rather to fill the mind, or we could even say to feast or focus the mind on the content, the substance of God's word, God's law.
[00:11:40]  In the case of Psalm chapter one, that we're looking at the law of God, we're delighting in it, we're meditating on it, meaning we are thinking deeply and we are thinking faithfully, biblically, upon the word of God, the law of God, the precepts and truths.
[00:11:57]  And doctrines of God.
[00:11:59]  And so I'm always wary when Christians incorporate into their private devotional practices this method of emptying the mind of cognitive thought, emptying the mind of substance, of all substance, which would include the written word of God, in order to somehow have this transcendental experience with God.
[00:12:21]  And I always just want to kind of shake Christians by the shoulders a little bit and just say, You want a word from God?
[00:12:27]  Here's the good news He wrote a book.
[00:12:29]  He wrote a book.
[00:12:30]  You don't have to get still and quiet and thoughtless to have some kind of mystical interpersonal experience.
[00:12:38]  You can just crack open the Bible and you've got thousands of words from God that you can begin reading.
[00:12:45]  You don't have to question their validity or accuracy.
[00:12:49]  That's the beauty, I think, of Christianity it's substance based.
[00:12:53]  It gives us something to hold on to.
[00:12:56]  It's not subjective, it's not mystical, it's not transcendental.
[00:13:02]  It is It is ontological.
[00:13:04]  It is based on fact and truth.
[00:13:08]  It's historical.
[00:13:09]  A man really did come to earth and live a life.
[00:13:13]  And I mean, there's more historical validity to the existence of Jesus of Nazareth than Caesar of Rome.
[00:13:20]  We don't have to, there's something to hold on to.
[00:13:24]  It's objective.
[00:13:25]  And I think that's the beauty of Christianity.
[00:13:29]  And I am, along with you, Doreen, concerned that so many Christians.
[00:13:34]  Um, makes little, make light of one of the greatest strengths of the Christian faith that it is fact based, it is substantive, it is objective, it is thoughtful.
[00:13:48]  Um, and that they want to abandon that thought.
[00:13:50]  I think part of it comes from this rising aversion in our society and in church culture, even towards theology, towards doctrine.
[00:13:59]  I think people are intimidated by doctrine, intimidated by theology, and so they somehow want to demonize.
[00:14:06]  Thoughtfulness.
[00:14:07]  They want to demonize intellectualism.
[00:14:10]  They want to demonize facts and say, well, that may be good for you, but I have this other thing over here.
[00:14:18]  But it's empty, it's anemic, and it just creates, and I think you'll agree with this, but what it does is it just creates this opportunity, a target, an opening, right?
[00:14:29]  It kind of leaves a foothold for the devil to come in and begin to influence.
[00:14:35]  Would you agree with that?
[00:14:36]  Can you elaborate maybe some more?
[00:14:38]  Yeah, I just want to say big capital Amen to everything you said.
[00:14:42]  I think more Christians today are getting their so called theology from the Jesus Calling books than they are from the Bible.
[00:14:49]  In Jesus Calling, there's another so called Christian product that is from automatic writing.
[00:14:55]  A woman named Sarah Young was highly influenced by an occult series called God Calling, which those authors openly admitted that they were automatic writing.
[00:15:05]  Some voice that they said was God, but clearly wasn't, because God's the same yesterday, today, and forever.
[00:15:10]  And that God contradicted the Bible.
[00:15:12]  So, Sarah Young, saying that she wanted more than the Bible, which the Bible is sufficient, went outside the Bible to channel a voice that is identifying itself as Jesus.
[00:15:23]  And it is one of the top bestsellers in Christianity right now.
[00:15:27]  And it's not Christian because it contradicts the Bible.
[00:15:30]  And it has this portrait of the false Jesus that we are warned about by Jesus himself.
[00:15:36]  That this false Jesus in Jesus' calling says that God loves everyone, and God is love.
[00:15:44]  Of course, the Apostle John said that.
[00:15:46]  And there is some truth that he loves his creations, but not everyone's a child of God.
[00:15:51]  If someone wants to know their identity, they don't need to turn to false gospel personality tests.
[00:15:57]  They need to turn to the Bible, as you said, Pastor Joel.

=== False Jesus and Non-Christian Origins (02:44) ===

[00:16:00]  There they will find who they are.
[00:16:02]  If they're a saved believer, they are a child of God.
[00:16:05]  They're adopted into God's family.
[00:16:07]  What great news is that?
[00:16:08]  That's better than any Enneagram number, that's better than any horoscope name, that's better than anything you could find with the Myers Brigg.
[00:16:16]  To know that you're adopted into God's family.
[00:16:19]  That's the best news ever, especially since we were saved while we were still dead in sin.
[00:16:25]  Amen.
[00:16:26]  Well, before we continue, I have a few more questions for you.
[00:16:28]  But because both Doreen and I want to be above reproach and we take the qualifications in Scripture for Christians seriously, we don't want to open up ourselves to the charge of slander.
[00:16:42]  So we want to validate the claims that have been made so far in this episode.
[00:16:47]  So it's only about two minutes long, but I want to play a quick quip, a quick Clip from remind me the name of this is Claudia Naranjo who talks about how the Enneagram was created through the process of automatic writing.
[00:17:05]  Great, I didn't even want to attempt the pronunciation on that name, so let's go ahead and play that clip to validate automatic writing.
[00:17:13]  It's really a confession from the author of the Enneagram that'll validate the claims we've made so far.
[00:17:19]  So, here's a quick clip.
[00:17:21]  So, at the conference, I told them I had made up this tale that all this came.
[00:17:27]  From millennia ago, and that this information came from the Sufis.
[00:17:32]  I told him that actually Oscar Richardson had not described any of the Ennea types either.
[00:17:38]  Actually, in the seven months we spent with him, he devoted about six hours to talk about the Enneagram, but he never came to describe any one of the types.
[00:17:50]  That was all that came from my own observations, but mostly from autocratic writing.
[00:17:57]  Automatic writing?
[00:17:58]  Yeah, it came to me through automatic writing.
[00:18:00]  What did?
[00:18:02]  The specific information about any types, which I then verified through observation because I was surrounded by people I was teaching and exploring with.
[00:18:14]  And I had friends in Eureka who told me essentially the same story that there was no mention of any types except from you.
[00:18:27]  Yes.
[00:18:29]  So, that you were the origin of the Enneotype concept.
[00:18:31]  And you were the origin of the word Enneotype.
[00:18:34]  Yes.
[00:18:35]  You suggested it and I adopted that idea.
[00:18:37]  Yes.
[00:18:37]  All right.
[00:18:38]  So, I hope you can see from that clip that everything that Doreen has said so far is absolutely true.

=== Glorifying Self Over God (12:15) ===

[00:18:44]  This isn't some kind of practice that has its origin from a thousand years ago or back in the time of the apostles.
[00:18:51]  It doesn't have Christian origin.
[00:18:54]  It is a very modern invention that ultimately came out of one individual.
[00:19:01]  Practicing this kind of mystical transcendental stasis and channeling thoughts that have no basis really in scripture.
[00:19:13]  Would you agree with that, Dury?
[00:19:14]  Yes.
[00:19:15]  And in addition to him admitting openly that he used this occultic, dangerous practice to get the Enneagram information, they also admit in this clip that you just played that they're using it for marketing purposes, they're using it to fool people, and they're just blatant about their.
[00:19:34]  Children of the father of lies.
[00:19:36]  I mean, it's just really clear in this.
[00:19:38]  And just like I was saying with Sarah Young, she doesn't see that she's deceived and she's passing along the deception.
[00:19:45]  There is so much that is contradictory of the Bible and Jesus' calling.
[00:19:50]  There's, and then she'll put a little scripture name, she'll put like Galatians 5 9 at the bottom of the page so that people who don't read the Bible will feel safe.
[00:20:00]  But it's not safe.
[00:20:01]  The Enneagram has been popularized into churches recently by a man named Richard Rohr.
[00:20:07]  Who's good friends with Oprah Winfrey and he has openly talked?
[00:20:12]  It's all over YouTube.
[00:20:13]  You can type in Richard Rohr and he will, you can see clips of him saying that Jesus is the same as Buddha and that Christianity could learn a lot from Buddhism and that the Jesus he knows, he wrote a book about a Jesus that is different than the biblical Jesus and that this Jesus is much more loving.
[00:20:33]  That's the false Jesus that I used to follow before I was saved.
[00:20:37]  That Jesus is like this.
[00:20:39]  Laid back hippie that says you can do whatever you want as long as you're happy, follow your bliss, like Joseph Campbell said.
[00:20:46]  That's the false Jesus that Richard Rohr, he's some sort of monk.
[00:20:54]  I don't know his exact denomination background, but he wrote a book that helped to usher in so called Christian books that were published by some otherwise Christian publishers, you know, like IVP is published a lot, The Road Back to You.
[00:21:12]  Which should give Christians pause because one of the big issues with the Enneagram is that it's about self glory.
[00:21:21]  And we know if we read the Bible that our purpose is to glorify God and to delight in Him.
[00:21:27]  Our purpose is not to glorify ourselves.
[00:21:29]  We were doing that before we were saved.
[00:21:31]  We were all about me, me, me.
[00:21:33]  And that's what you see the false teachers giving these sermons that are all about eisegesis, that are all about me centered theology.
[00:21:43]  The Enneagram just has you completely focused on yourself, which has you away from focusing on Jesus and the true gospel.
[00:21:53]  Amen.
[00:21:53]  I completely agree.
[00:21:54]  So that kind of really sets us up for exactly where I wanted to go next.
[00:21:59]  The question that I have written is this What do you think about Christians taking personality tests in general?
[00:22:06]  Is self assessment really that accurate?
[00:22:09]  The idea of, I don't really, to me, I always find it ironic.
[00:22:13]  I'm going to take a personality test.
[00:22:14]  So I'll just go ahead and show my hand real quick.
[00:22:16]  So, I'm going to take a personality test for what purpose, right?
[00:22:20]  To what end?
[00:22:21]  Because I want to know more about myself.
[00:22:23]  Okay, well, who's taking the test?
[00:22:25]  Me.
[00:22:26]  So, the guy who doesn't know enough about himself to know who he is is now going to assess himself to tell himself who he is.
[00:22:34]  And so, I just, even the basic principle of I'm lacking self assessment, so I'm going to gain self assessment by self assessment seems to be a little bit counterproductive to me.
[00:22:47]  However, I think that there can be some benefits, perhaps, but I just wanted to throw it to you.
[00:22:53]  What do you think about Christians taking personality tests in general?
[00:22:56]  And is self assessment really that accurate?
[00:23:00]  And what balance should we strike?
[00:23:02]  Because certainly there's a certain point where we can be so introspective and so navel gazing, so self focused, that it's really man centered.
[00:23:14]  It's not seeking, as you just said earlier, to glorify God, but rather to glorify ourselves.
[00:23:19]  What are some of your thoughts on that?
[00:23:21]  Well, you know, we first should be really honest with ourselves and with God.
[00:23:25]  Why do I want to take this test?
[00:23:26]  What is my end goal in taking it?
[00:23:28]  Am I doing it to go along with the crowd?
[00:23:31]  Do I want to socialize because there's an Enneagram class at church?
[00:23:35]  Is my marriage in trouble?
[00:23:37]  And why am I wanting to take this and turn to God for wisdom?
[00:23:40]  He's the source of all wisdom, not a test.
[00:23:42]  And I loved what you said, Pastor Joel, that you are taking the test with your own answers.
[00:23:48]  So it's like a snake eating its own tail.
[00:23:50]  And it reminds me of some of those hokey spiritual gifts tests that I used to be into when I was first saved.
[00:23:56]  I repent for that.
[00:23:58]  So the spiritual gifts tests, you write, you know, oh, I frequently.
[00:24:03]  Will speak in an unknown language, and you know, we would not answer no on that.
[00:24:08]  And so, lo and behold, it says that our gift is not speaking in tongues.
[00:24:12]  Wow, how did that happen?
[00:24:15]  You know, and it's not accurate to identify yourself that way.
[00:24:19]  It's just there's nothing of value in Enneagram test except for a value to the devil, and he's winning because he's got he's successfully got people to waste their time once again when they could be using that time to study God's word and to glorify him.
[00:24:37]  I love what you said earlier about meditating.
[00:24:40]  A lot of people who have not read the Bible get very confused and they write me nasty letters saying, Well, the Bible tells us to meditate, and that's why they justify doing contemplative prayer, mindfulness, Lectia Divina, all these new age, so mystical.
[00:24:57]  They're just mystical practices.
[00:25:00]  Carl Jung, who was the basis of the Myers Brigg test, famously told people that the way to know God was through experiences.
[00:25:08]  I used to say the same thing when I was a new age teacher.
[00:25:11]  So I understand where Carl Jung, as an unsaved, spiritually blind person, would think that because that's what I used to think.
[00:25:17]  That's a secular worldview.
[00:25:19]  It is not a biblical worldview at all.
[00:25:21]  The way to know God is to read and study his word.
[00:25:24]  As you said, he's given us thousands of words, and we must read the whole Bible.
[00:25:29]  I know it sounds intimidating, and there's parts of the Bible that are super challenging, but that's why you have Pastor Joel in Right Response Ministries, and you have commentaries like all these books that I turn to.
[00:25:41]  That helps you to unpack what's being said in the Bible.
[00:25:46]  It will tell you who God is, why you're here, why there's suffering in the world, why there's evil in the world, all those questions that we all have.
[00:25:55]  You know, what happens after death?
[00:25:56]  It's all answered in the Bible.
[00:25:58]  That's why it's sufficient.
[00:25:59]  We don't need anything else.
[00:26:00]  So, in terms of should personality tests be taken by Christians, there's no reason for it.
[00:26:06]  And I would say, from my background, don't do it.
[00:26:10]  It's too much temptation.
[00:26:11]  It's like, like I said, a little leaven, it's ungodly counsel.
[00:26:15]  It is Taking false advice, which the Bible warns us about, that we are not to partake of worldly wisdom.
[00:26:25]  Check out 1 Corinthians 3 18 through 20.
[00:26:28]  People also argue, Pastor Joel, that the Enneagram, even though it has occultic roots, can be redeemed just like the meat was redeemed.
[00:26:37]  I think it's 1 Corinthians 8.
[00:26:39]  But check out that chapter and you'll see that it's really about redeeming people, not Objects.
[00:26:47]  And it is really focused on not causing someone to stumble.
[00:26:51]  And I'm here to argue that taking the Enneagram and then later boasting about it will cause a new weak believer to stumble because then they'll get mixed up in it and it could lead them away from it.
[00:27:03]  So, a lot of great thoughts.
[00:27:04]  Yeah.
[00:27:06]  The only tests I would recommend is the MMPI, the Minnesota Multiphase Act Personality Inventory, because that was done scientifically with a built in lie detector.
[00:27:18]  So, it asks the same question four different ways.
[00:27:21]  So, you can't cross up.
[00:27:23]  And that actually is a detector if you've Um, done things like you have dissociative disorder, uh, hallucinating, or things like that.
[00:27:30]  So, the MMPI would be the only truly valid psychological test, but even then, I would use caution with that because it is a secular test that should be administered by someone who's very knowledgeable with it.
[00:27:45]  It's not to be used wise, lightly, it's not to be used in a church setting, but that would be the only test I would say could be valid for Christians.
[00:27:54]  Gotcha, that's really helpful.
[00:27:56]  Uh, just to add to that, I think.
[00:27:58]  Part of what I would say is both Doreen and I, just for the record, maybe as a helpful disclaimer, we both, as Bible believing Christians, do believe in spiritual gifts.
[00:28:08]  Now, correct me if I'm wrong, Doreen, but I think we would both be in the position of being a cessationist, but that doesn't mean that we believe all spiritual gifts have ceased.
[00:28:18]  And so, although we do think that there are some gifts that were reserved in the beginning of the New Testament age, such as the gift of tongues or the gift of prophecy, We certainly still believe that the Holy Spirit sovereignly gives gifts to individual believers for building up the body of Christ and bringing glory to God, such as teaching.
[00:28:41]  We believe that the gift of teaching is a spiritual gift.
[00:28:45]  And we believe that the gift of teaching is something that still operates among Christians, among believers in the church today.
[00:28:51]  And so we do believe that individuals have been given sovereignly by God spiritual gifts gifts of help, administration, service, generosity.
[00:29:01]  Teaching, all these things are gifts still operating in the church today.
[00:29:05]  And it is important for Christians to become aware of the individual spiritual gifts that they possess by sovereign decree of the Holy Spirit so that they might work to staff their weaknesses and yet at the same time that they might work to play to their strengths for the service, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ as a whole.
[00:29:27]  They need to be aware.
[00:29:28]  I need to be aware of what it is that the Lord has gifted me in so that.
[00:29:32]  So that I can devote energy and time and effort in that vein, so that I might be as fruitful as possible for the good of the church and the glory of God.
[00:29:44]  And I think all that Doreen and I are saying is that that principle exists that people have distinctions, that God doesn't make everybody exactly the same.
[00:29:53]  So there are differences, not only between men and women, but also between individual men and individual women in the church.
[00:30:03]  But this idea that you would be the most qualified individual to assess you seems to be a little bit just kind of an oxymoron.
[00:30:16]  And so, what we believe is that in the church, one of the ways that God helps individuals identify their spiritual gifts so that they might have more direction and how to serve the body of Christ at large, one of the ways that God does that is through other believers in community.
[00:30:35]  Just taking a spiritual gifts test in the privacy of our home, you know, or doing it online and then going to the church or to the leaders of the church, the pastors, and announcing, you know, I am Joel Webbin and I have this gift.
[00:30:51]  And you can't even question whether or not I have this gift because I have my little certificate that I printed off from online, you know, that proves it.

=== Sober Judgment on Personality Tests (07:54) ===

[00:30:59]  I think in some ways, the self assessing personality test, spiritual gift test.
[00:31:06]  Phenomenon, I think in some way it's a quest for validation and significance.
[00:31:12]  I think it's a quest for people who, all of us, myself included, so I'm not above this, but I think all of us, we all wrestle with feelings of insignificance.
[00:31:23]  We all wrestle with feelings of lacking worthiness and those kinds of things, lacking worth.
[00:31:32]  And so I think it's a quest to find worth and significance.
[00:31:39]  But misdirected, that we're going about it the wrong way.
[00:31:42]  First and foremost, we find worth in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
[00:31:46]  God didn't send his son to the world because we were lovely.
[00:31:50]  He sent his son to the world in order to make us lovely.
[00:31:54]  And so, first, we have no worth outside of Jesus Christ.
[00:31:57]  Yes, there's a sense in which we are image bearing creatures, and there's value in that as simply image bearing creatures of the living God.
[00:32:07]  And so, there's value in that.
[00:32:09]  But ultimately, we have taken the image of God, it's been tarnished.
[00:32:13]  It's been twisted because of original sin and our personal rebellion towards God.
[00:32:19]  And so ultimately, it's not until God redeems us by his grace and begins to sanctify us that we really gain true, ultimate, eternal value in the sight of God, where it really counts.
[00:32:33]  And so, first, if you're lacking self worth, if you're lacking a feeling of significance and those kinds of things, first look to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
[00:32:45]  That's where true value comes from.
[00:32:47]  Um, originates secondly.
[00:32:48]  If you're looking for not so much that ultimate self worth, but you're looking simply to identify your strengths and gifts so that you might be a further blessing to the body of Christ and your local church, um, co discern those things with those who are mature.
[00:33:07]  And yes, there is a biblical principle for having sober judgment about yourself, right?
[00:33:13]  You shouldn't think of yourself more highly than you ought, you also shouldn't think of yourself more lowly than you ought, but each person should view themselves with sober judgment.
[00:33:20]  You can make a case that from that scripture, that is self assessment, viewing yourself with sober judgment.
[00:33:25]  But the question is, how do we arrive at that accurate self assessment?
[00:33:29]  And I would argue that that verse does not make a case for doing that individually in isolation.
[00:33:35]  I think that the verse, all the verse is saying is that we should arrive, it's speaking to the destination, not the journey, not the process of getting there.
[00:33:43]  But the conclusion is that we should all have a proper, sober view of ourselves.
[00:33:48]  The verse does not say really anything about how we arrive.
[00:33:52]  At that proper view, other than exemplifying humility.
[00:33:56]  And I think part of humility is subjecting ourselves to not just subjecting ourselves to ourselves, but subjecting ourselves to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, allowing them to speak into our lives, giving them a view, letting them see ourselves, not just showing up at a local church and saying, This is my spiritual gift.
[00:34:16]  I'm gifted to teach.
[00:34:18]  I assume that I'll be preaching next Sunday.
[00:34:20]  No, why don't you just get there and serve and be faithful and be humble?
[00:34:25]  And allow God to exalt the humble, right?
[00:34:29]  He humiliates the proud, but he exalts in his proper time those who are humble.
[00:34:35]  And he'll use others, not just you, but others in the church to confirm and to help identify and say, Yeah, you know what?
[00:34:45]  I really think that so and so is gifted in this, and we should provide an opportunity.
[00:34:49]  The Bible says a man's gifts make room for him.
[00:34:52]  So you just get on the ground and start serving and commit your.
[00:35:00]  Calling, commit your gifting, commit your future to the Lord and allow Him in His providence and in His sovereignty to speak to others to help them discern, help them recognize and identify those gifts and provide whatever platform the Lord has ordained for you to have in His proper timing.
[00:35:24]  So, both Doreen and I, we believe in spiritual gifts.
[00:35:28]  We believe it's important to have sober judgment, to have an accurate self assessment.
[00:35:34]  But what we're contesting is the process on how we get there, how we identify those spiritual gifts, and how we come to a sober judgment of ourselves.
[00:35:43]  And I think one of the biggest things that we would say is we've already said is the word of God is the final arbiter on those things, but it's also the word of God interpreted and applied to you by the body of Christ as a whole, not just individuals in isolation taking a test.
[00:36:05]  With the presupposition, that's the irony.
[00:36:07]  You're going into this with a presupposition of what you want to be.
[00:36:11]  You think that's not going to influence how you take that test, right?
[00:36:14]  It's like, I've always wanted to be da Well, sure enough, I'm exactly my test results came back exactly how I hoped they would.
[00:36:23]  Well, that's because you took the test, you know.
[00:36:25]  It's just it's a bit dishonest, and I think really a bit a bit naive.
[00:36:30]  And I think Christians just we have to be more discerning, um, in regards to those things.
[00:36:34]  And one of the things we need to be discerning of is.
[00:36:37]  Is our own hearts, which the Bible says is deceitful above all else.
[00:36:41]  It's so easy for us to deceive ourselves.
[00:36:45]  And so, why not welcome others into the equation so that we're not tempted by self deception or self flattery or self focus?
[00:36:55]  Would you agree with those things, Dory?
[00:36:57]  Oh, completely.
[00:36:59]  Yes.
[00:37:00]  I am a cessationist in terms of the apostolic gifts are not needed after today.
[00:37:04]  Hebrews 1 Peter the Apostle makes that very clear.
[00:37:08]  But the gifts of administration are still here, like teaching and mercy, but they're not assessed by a spiritual gifts test.
[00:37:16]  One of the things that you mentioned that I wanted to highlight is that these tests lead to pridefulness.
[00:37:22]  And we all know that the Bible says that pride leads to a fall.
[00:37:28]  And we want to be very careful because, as you said, we'll be humbled in very painful ways if we go into pridefulness.
[00:37:35]  And yet, that's what we see.
[00:37:36]  I remember going to one Christian conference, Pastor Joel, where people were bragging.
[00:37:41]  Including the main speaker, about what number they were from the Enneagram test.
[00:37:46]  And they were saying, Well, I'm an eight.
[00:37:48]  Me too.
[00:37:49]  I'm an eight too.
[00:37:50]  Oh, I hate ones.
[00:37:51]  I hate twos.
[00:37:52]  And it's gobbledygook.
[00:37:54]  I mean, nobody would do that at a Christian conference about their astrological sign.
[00:37:59]  You would never hear them say, Oh, I'm a Sagittarius.
[00:38:01]  Oh, really?
[00:38:01]  Me too.
[00:38:02]  I hate Tauruses.
[00:38:03]  Nobody would do that.
[00:38:04]  But that's exactly what they're doing with the Enneagram numbers.
[00:38:07]  I recently interviewed a woman named Jill Lancour, who's a pastor's wife.
[00:38:12]  And she said that when she was in the Enneagram, into it, and she had been deceived, she ran Enneagram classes at her husband's church.
[00:38:21]  And she now has repented because she was more focused on her Enneagram number and boasting about it than she was focused on the gospel or boasting about Jesus and what he's done for us.
[00:38:33]  And so it's real subtle.
[00:38:35]  In fact, the newest thing is that there are Christians who are calling their little sect of Enneagram study Gospel Enneagram and Christian Enneagram, which should be a red flag.
[00:38:48]  You know, it reminds me of some of the yoga instructors calling it Holy Yoga just because they stick.

=== Loving God Your Way vs Commandment (07:20) ===

[00:38:53]  Scripture in front of this worship of Hindu deities through poses.
[00:38:58]  It doesn't work that way.
[00:38:59]  You can't just put the name gospel in front of Enneagram and redeem it.
[00:39:04]  It's an unredeemable practice.
[00:39:06]  And the Bible is very clear that we are not to go to man made ideologies.
[00:39:12]  As you mentioned earlier, it doesn't matter if it's ancient.
[00:39:16]  The geometric shape, which to me reminds me of a pentagram or an astrological wheel, that shape is ancient.
[00:39:24]  But the nine enneotypes, which we listened to in that clip you just played, are very recent.
[00:39:29]  And they were originally hailed as something in the New Age community.
[00:39:34]  They were taught at Esalon, which is a New Age kind of commune facility in Northern California.
[00:39:41]  And it was only in the New Age community until Richard Rohr popularized it.
[00:39:45]  He's a New Ager who claims to be Christian or Catholic.
[00:39:50]  And people listen to him because they're not comparing things to the Bible.
[00:39:53]  Why?
[00:39:54]  Because the studies show, like the Pew Research and the Ligonier studies.
[00:39:58]  Show that only about 5% of Christians have read the whole Bible.
[00:40:03]  I mean, it's just that's the guardrails we need.
[00:40:06]  It's not legalism, because legalism is saying that your actions save you.
[00:40:12]  That's heresy.
[00:40:14]  Only Jesus' actions saved us on the cross.
[00:40:17]  We're saved through God's mercy and grace through our faith in Jesus.
[00:40:21]  But once we're saved, we want to obey God.
[00:40:24]  And Jesus even said in John 14 15, if you love me, you'll obey my commandments.
[00:40:30]  And one of the commandments that he highlighted is to love God with all your heart and your mind and your soul.
[00:40:35]  To love God means to obey him, it means to trust him.
[00:40:39]  If you're not trusting God, you're going to go outside of God to astrology, to a Ouija board, or to Enneagram, which are all the same.
[00:40:48]  You're right.
[00:40:49]  I just want to highlight one of the last things you said there that I was hoping we would get to.
[00:40:53]  And I think it's a great way maybe to conclude our episode.
[00:40:56]  But the greatest commandment for any Christian who might still be kind of pushing back at this point, they're watching and they're saying, Well, the automatic writing or centered prayer, you know, or contemplative prayer, this idea, you know, it sounds like you're just making this case that, you know, unless I care about theology, I'm a second rate Christian, you know, and or, you know, you're making me feel like because I'm not intellectual, then I'm less.
[00:41:22]  And I think that's part of the draw.
[00:41:23]  I think part of the draw is you're trying to find worth in something, trying to find that self significance, and you don't feel particularly gifted in one area.
[00:41:33]  And so you're trying to.
[00:41:34]  You know, gravitate as an alternative to another, and I would just encourage any Christian who's listening to this by saying the greatest commandment is to love God.
[00:41:46]  But if we're going to be honest and flesh the whole thing out, it's not just to love God however you want, it's not just to love God your way.
[00:41:56]  Jesus is very clear it's to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, but also, He says, with all your mind, with all your mind, and so.
[00:42:08]  So, genuine Christian love for God, it is a thoughtful, a thinking, a reading, a studying love.
[00:42:21]  It is.
[00:42:21]  Is it heartfelt?
[00:42:23]  Is it filled with zeal and passion?
[00:42:28]  You bet you.
[00:42:29]  It's a heart love, but it's also a mind love.
[00:42:34]  And I think Christians look at that, and I used to do this.
[00:42:39]  Christians will look at that the greatest commandment, love the Lord your God with all your heart, your mind, your soul, your strength.
[00:42:46]  And what they'll do is they'll kind of divide it up into three or four sections.
[00:42:50]  And they'll say, I'm called, and the way that God's gifted me, the way that He created me, I'm one of those individuals who's loving God with all my heart.
[00:43:00]  And there are some who are loving God with all their mind.
[00:43:02]  And they basically, I guess what I'm saying is they fracture the commandment, they divorce it, they divide it, they break it up into As though it were three different commandments or four different commandments, and as though it's optional.
[00:43:20]  Not the whole thing, but everybody has to pick one.
[00:43:23]  You got to do one.
[00:43:24]  You got to love God.
[00:43:25]  But here are three different options of how to love God.
[00:43:29]  And all you have to do in order to be faithful to obey this commandment is select one of them and really devote yourself to that.
[00:43:35]  That is a horrible exegesis of the greatest commandment.
[00:43:40]  Each of us is called to love God with everything.
[00:43:43]  If I was to exegete that commandment as simple as possible, I'd say, The commandment is to love God with all that we have.
[00:43:52]  And Christian, you may have never thought of yourself or identified as an intellectual.
[00:43:59]  You may have never felt like you were particularly intelligent or gifted when it comes to study, but God gave you a mind.
[00:44:10]  You're not a thoughtless, brainless person.
[00:44:13]  God did not just give you a heart, He didn't just give you emotions and zeal.
[00:44:17]  He didn't just give you strength and a body to walk.
[00:44:20]  Output transcript Out the faith in action.
[00:44:23]  He didn't just give you an eternal soul, but he also gave you a mind.
[00:44:28]  And to the best of your ability, with what God gave you, use it.
[00:44:32]  Just like the parable of Jesus with the three servants, and they each are given different degrees, different measurements of talents.
[00:44:39]  One has five, and one has two, and one has one.
[00:44:42]  You may feel like I just have one talent in the mind category.
[00:44:47]  Well, put it to work.
[00:44:48]  Don't bury it in the sand out of.
[00:44:51]  Out of insecurity or fear.
[00:44:54]  Put your mind to work, and I bet you that you will be surprised by how much you really can grasp in deep ways the truths of God if you apply yourself.
[00:45:09]  I've talked to so many Christians who they were never, before being converted, they weren't bookworms, they weren't nerds, they weren't, you know, that's just not who they were.
[00:45:19]  They were always into sports or things that may be more physical and less.
[00:45:23]  Mental, or maybe more artistic than they were, you know, studious.
[00:45:30]  But God so changed their heart.
[00:45:32]  They became so zealous and so interested, so desirous of the things of God that they were like, well, yeah, I've never really been much of a studious person, but I want to know God.
[00:45:43]  And all of a sudden, this person who was, you know, if you look at their childhood, they were a lot more interested in PE, you know, than they were math or arithmetic or English.
[00:45:53]  And now, all of a sudden, I've talked to people who, before being converted, they only read two or three books all the way through in their entire life.
[00:46:01]  And now they're just a ferocious reader.
[00:46:04]  And it turns out they actually were a lot more intelligent than they gave themselves credit for.
[00:46:09]  They just didn't have something that interested them.
[00:46:13]  But if you're a Christian, guess what?

=== The Triune God as True Interest (02:58) ===

[00:46:14]  You have something that you should find very, very interesting, namely, someone, the triune God.
[00:46:22]  And he wrote a book for us.
[00:46:26]  And we are called to love him.
[00:46:28]  Christians do not have the prerogative to opt out of loving God with their mind, I guess is the short way to say.
[00:46:38]  Any final thoughts, Dorian?
[00:46:40]  Yeah, I love everything you said.
[00:46:42]  I completely agree with you, Pastor Joel.
[00:46:43]  Thank you so much.
[00:46:45]  My final thought is that when people take the Enneagram, a lot of times it's because they want to know about their relationships.
[00:46:53]  That's their stated goal, they want to know about their marriage.
[00:46:57]  But the most important relationship.
[00:46:59]  Is with our triune God.
[00:47:01]  And if we're in a relationship with God, you want to know everything about your beloved.
[00:47:07]  So the way to know about our triune God is to read his word, and that is to study the Bible every day.
[00:47:13]  I know everyone's busy and distracted.
[00:47:16]  I'm busy.
[00:47:17]  I get distracted.
[00:47:18]  For me, it's word before world.
[00:47:20]  It's just before I allow myself to do anything else, I'm in the seat with the Bible.
[00:47:26]  I go through a book at a time.
[00:47:27]  I just started Proverbs again.
[00:47:30]  And every time you read it, the Holy Spirit will illuminate something new for you that you learn about our triune God and really about yourself, too.
[00:47:38]  You're right.
[00:47:39]  Absolutely right.
[00:47:40]  Well, in each of our episodes, what we do is we conclude the episode and then we also just kind of, before completely cutting off the episode, we kind of give for our listeners our bonus question.
[00:47:55]  And we have each of our guests stay on for another five to 10 minutes to answer the bonus question.
[00:48:01]  So, our bonus question today.
[00:48:04]  Is this what can you tell us about the concept of soul ties?
[00:48:08]  The concept of soul ties, this idea of, you know, that somebody has been physically, you know, intimate with someone and now they're bound to them in some eternal or lifelong way.
[00:48:20]  So, what can you tell us about the concept of soul ties?
[00:48:23]  And is this concept actually biblical?
[00:48:25]  So, we're going to come on in our bonus hours edition for our responders.
[00:48:30]  If you're not a club member, we call them our responders.
[00:48:33]  We encourage you to take a moment.
[00:48:35]  And go ahead and subscribe.
[00:48:37]  Become a responder today.
[00:48:39]  The minimum tier is $10 a month.
[00:48:42]  This helps to fund the ministry so that we can continue to put out biblically faithful and relevant content, such as this episode.
[00:48:50]  And as an incentive for all of our responders, we have our bonus edition material.
[00:48:56]  And again, it's going to be for this particular episode with Doreen what can you tell us about the concept of soul ties?
[00:49:03]  And is this concept actually biblical?
[00:49:05]  So let's go ahead and conclude our episode.
[00:49:07]  Doreen, could you let our listeners know?
[00:49:09]  How they can be following you and keeping up with your ministry?

=== Follow Doreen Virtue for Jesus (00:58) ===

[00:49:12]  Absolutely.
[00:49:13]  I have a YouTube channel called Doreen Virtue for Jesus, F O R Jesus.
[00:49:18]  And also, I'm on Instagram at Doreen Virtue.
[00:49:22]  People can see my posts and videos that way.
[00:49:25]  And if they have questions, they're absolutely invited to write me at Instagram direct messages.
[00:49:31]  I am the only person reading and answering.
[00:49:33]  So sometimes I'm slow, but I do my best to answer everyone as much as I can.
[00:49:39]  Great.
[00:49:40]  Thanks so much for coming on, Doreen.
[00:49:41]  Thank you.
[00:49:44]  As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.
[00:49:50]  To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.comslash offer.
[00:49:55]  We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?
[00:49:58]  If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God, this would be a great resource.
[00:50:04]  As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.comslash offer.
[00:50:09]  And thank you for your generous support.