NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Abolishing Abortion: The Death Blow To The Culture Of Death
Aired: 2020-11-11
Duration: 56:05


=== Applying God's Word to Life (02:15) ===

[00:00:00]  Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
[00:00:04]  This is Theology Applied.
[00:00:11]  All right, welcome, listeners.
[00:00:13]  This is Pastor Joel with another episode of Theology Applied.
[00:00:16]  In this podcast, we are really doing our best by God's grace to not just take a particular doctrine or a particular text and exegete it, but to actually take the truth of God's Word and apply it to every realm of life.
[00:00:30]  Faithful preaching is not coming before people of God and saying, I have an idea or I have a concept or I have a strategy, but it's coming before the people of God and saying, I have a text.
[00:00:43]  It's not man's word, it's God's word.
[00:00:45]  And then faithfully interpreting that text, not the meaning that we want to impute onto the text, but actually saying, no, this is God's word and this is what God means by his word.
[00:00:57]  But faithful ministry, faithful preaching, faithful conversations, they actually go even beyond.
[00:01:03]  That.
[00:01:03]  There is a revelation, a text from God's word.
[00:01:06]  There is an interpretation, faithful exegesis, but there's also application.
[00:01:12]  And that's often where the church of God, especially in this season and our nation, tends to get offended.
[00:01:21]  They don't always get offended when we say, This is what God's word means.
[00:01:26]  But we certainly tend to take up an offense when we say, And in light of this, this is how you should live, this is what you should do.
[00:01:33]  And so, contrary to popular belief, Faithful ministry, it applies to our lives and not just to our marriages and our parenting or to Sunday mornings as we gather as a church, but we want to see all of Christ applied through His Word to all of life, to politics, to entertainment, to the marketplace, to media, to all these aspects of human society.
[00:02:01]  Jesus has something to say about all of it and His Lordship.
[00:02:06]  Is reigning over all the earth, over all things.
[00:02:09]  And so we want to see that come to pass to a greater and greater degree.
[00:02:14]  So that's what this podcast is all about.

=== Confronting Fear with Holiness (10:39) ===

[00:02:16]  Today, I have the distinct pleasure and honor of introducing our guest, Desi Mays.
[00:02:22]  Desi Mays is a covenant member along with her husband at Apologia Church, where the lead pastor is Jeff Durbin.
[00:02:31]  James White also serves as an elder there.
[00:02:34]  And she is the co host with her brother, Zach Morgan, for a podcast called Provoked.
[00:02:40]  And she's also, as a member of the church, intimately involved in their ministry called End Abortion Now, which has really chapters in local churches all over the world.
[00:02:50]  And by God's grace, has been instrumental in saving the lives of now thousands of unborn children.
[00:02:58]  And so I'm very glad to have you, Desi, on the podcast.
[00:03:01]  Thank you for coming on.
[00:03:03]  Oh, thank you.
[00:03:04]  It's an honor to be on the podcast.
[00:03:07]  And, you know, just it's so special since you were my old pastor from San Diego.
[00:03:12]  So I feel very honored and.
[00:03:14]  Happy to do this tonight.
[00:03:17]  Yeah.
[00:03:17]  Praise God.
[00:03:18]  I was, I got in God's providence and sovereignty.
[00:03:21]  I got the pleasure of being Don and Desi's training wheels, preparing them for Jeff Durbin and James White.
[00:03:28]  When they came to our church, they were coming out of a church that was a true church, not necessarily heretical, but just softer and more seeker sensitive and kind of the old mantra of doctrine devised.
[00:03:42]  And so maybe kind of steering clear of.
[00:03:45]  More controversial truths.
[00:03:46]  And so they came to the response.
[00:03:48]  And you guys, I remember just your eyes just kind of lit up every Sunday.
[00:03:52]  You just ate up the preaching of the word.
[00:03:56]  And now you've gone on to bigger and better things.
[00:03:59]  We love response too, still.
[00:04:04]  That church will always have a special place in our hearts.
[00:04:08]  Yeah, me too.
[00:04:09]  It's been a privilege being a part of this church.
[00:04:11]  So, that being said, let's go ahead and dive right in.
[00:04:14]  The first question, well, I guess first I'll just kind of title our episode.
[00:04:18]  So, this is, I've titled it Abolishing Abortion Dealing the Death Blow to the Culture of Death.
[00:04:25]  We, We want to really, as Christians, we want to see abortion completely outlawed in our nation.
[00:04:34]  It's criminal, it's cruel, it's an abomination, it's murder.
[00:04:39]  And so I know that you've been very involved in this.
[00:04:42]  And so I wanted to talk about how do we win as Christians?
[00:04:46]  How do we win this fight?
[00:04:48]  And so before we get into it, maybe if you could just give us a little bit of your testimony and how Jesus saved you personally.
[00:04:56]  Okay, sure.
[00:04:57]  Yeah, I grew up in a non Christian home.
[00:05:02]  I would have said that I was a Christian, though.
[00:05:04]  You know, we attended church here and there.
[00:05:07]  I had a very fundamental kind of understanding of what Christianity was.
[00:05:14]  And I, like I said, I would have said I was a Christian, but I absolutely was not.
[00:05:19]  Until my late 20s, my brother Zach had started a church in San Diego and asked my husband and I to attend and kind of help him set up and break down because we were.
[00:05:31]  They're renting out a space.
[00:05:32]  And I always had a good relationship with my brother and my sister in law.
[00:05:36]  And so we agreed out of like familial obligation and because I love my brother and because I said I was a Christian.
[00:05:44]  And so I thought, hey, no big deal.
[00:05:47]  But I really had never heard the gospel, didn't understand the holiness of God.
[00:05:54]  Yeah, I wasn't a Christian.
[00:05:56]  My, like, my heart, my lips confessed to know Christ, but my heart and my mind and my soul was so far from Christ.
[00:06:03]  So, anyway, so we started going to my brother's church and going to Bible studies and hearing the gospel preached and going through the scriptures.
[00:06:12]  And through that process, my husband and I were both saved.
[00:06:17]  I think my husband was saved first.
[00:06:19]  I remember seeing a change in him first.
[00:06:23]  And then I remember distinctly being in church one Sunday and my brother was preaching the gospel again.
[00:06:29]  And I just felt like the fear of the Lord came over me and I knew I'm in trouble, I'm a sinner.
[00:06:38]  I need Christ, you know, I need a savior.
[00:06:41]  And it was the first time for me because, like, you know, the Bible says most men proclaim their own goodness.
[00:06:46]  I thought I was a pretty good person.
[00:06:49]  But after the Lord opened my eyes and gave me a new heart and mind, I was able to see the things that God wants us to see and understand more clearly.
[00:07:01]  And I mean, I was so not a Christian before that it's laughable to me that I even thought I was.
[00:07:06]  I mean, I was so liberal and so like, Pro everything God hates.
[00:07:13]  Now, looking back, it's almost funny to see how blind I truly was.
[00:07:19]  And so, yeah, that's kind of in a nutshell how I became a Christian.
[00:07:23]  And then, shortly after, the issue of abortion came up, and I still was kind of working through these kind of worldly ideologies that I had adopted over the years, abortion being one of them.
[00:07:36]  And I thought, you know, I know it's probably wrong and I would never do it, but who am I to tell somebody else that?
[00:07:42]  They can't, what they can't do with their body, can and can't do with their body.
[00:07:46]  And so I remember I was pregnant with my first born son, Liam, and my brother had pointed me to Ray Comfort's video called 180.
[00:07:56]  And because he knew I was struggling through the same, you know, I know it's wrong, but, but, you know, judge not, right?
[00:08:03]  And so I watched the video and the Lord just broke me, just changed my life forever.
[00:08:10]  You know, he showed me the evil of abortion, that these are image bearers of God, that these are our neighbors.
[00:08:18]  And so After that, I've just had an immense burden to try to speak up for our neighbors, these preborn children.
[00:08:28]  And we also had a burden to just share the gospel with everybody we knew and everybody we came in contact with because that's how we were saved.
[00:08:38]  The gospel was shared to us, and the Lord saved my husband and I, and, you know, completely transformed our marriage and our lives.
[00:08:47]  And we just so want.
[00:08:49]  That for other people, and we want them to come to know the Lord.
[00:08:54]  And so I would say evangelism and going to the abortion clinics, trying to fight for the preborn, is just two of my biggest burdens.
[00:09:03]  And I'm a mom, I've got three little ones at home a nine year old, a three year old, and a two month old.
[00:09:11]  And so, yeah, my first job is to be a mom and a wife, and after that, share the gospel and try to save babies.
[00:09:20]  So, yeah.
[00:09:21]  Praise God.
[00:09:21]  That's great.
[00:09:22]  It makes me think when you're saying, you know, you thought you were a pretty good person, and then you just, in the preaching of the gospel and the preaching of God's law, we're called to preach both law and gospel.
[00:09:33]  And there was just this overwhelming sense of that you were in trouble, you said, you know.
[00:09:38]  And I always try in my preaching to remind people that in many ways, I think in the church today, the love of the Lord has been lost on a generation that has not been taught the fear of the Lord.
[00:09:53]  And if we don't fear God, if we don't see Him as holy, see ourselves as wretches apart from His grace, then I think a lot of times when we tell people that God is loving without the backdrop of the holiness of God, the sinfulness of men, the reaction that many people have is kind of like a nonchalant, it's almost like an assumption.
[00:10:17]  Like you say, God really loves you.
[00:10:18]  And they say, Of course.
[00:10:20]  Why wouldn't He?
[00:10:21]  I'm lovable.
[00:10:22]  Like almost like they would be more shocked if you told them that God didn't love them.
[00:10:28]  They feel as though God is obligated to love them.
[00:10:32]  How could He not love me?
[00:10:33]  It would be immoral for God to do anything less than love me.
[00:10:37]  And so the love of God is really lost on a generation, I think, today of people that God's love doesn't astound the heart in the way that it should because we have people who don't fear God.
[00:10:51]  And so ultimately, we love Him because He first loved us, 1 John 4 19.
[00:10:55]  And so we have people who they're lacking affection for the Lord because they don't see the Lord's love for them and they don't really.
[00:11:01]  They're not wowed by the Lord's love for them because they don't properly feel a fear of the Lord because they've missed his holiness.
[00:11:09]  They've missed their sinfulness.
[00:11:11]  And it's concerning.
[00:11:12]  I always think of the old hymn, Amazing Grace, the second stanza that says, 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved.' I think we're quick to do that second half, 'Grace my fears relieved,' the grace of the gospel being preached to people who are insecure, people who are anxious, people who are worried.
[00:11:33]  It's okay, God loves you.
[00:11:36]  But the first half of that line is, 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear.' And it really is a gracious and loving thing of the Lord to reveal to us his holiness and the fact that apart from his grace, we stand condemned.
[00:11:50]  And so it actually is the grace of God that first, when the true grace of the Lord comes to us, our first response is grace teaches us to fear.
[00:11:59]  And then that same grace of the gospel brings us to the cross where those fears are ultimately relieved.
[00:12:05]  But we can't skip the first part.
[00:12:07]  And so we got a lot of people, they want their fears relieved, those worldly surface fears.
[00:12:14]  Of identity or significance or satisfaction.
[00:12:18]  They want these human fears relieved.
[00:12:22]  But first, they actually need to have conveyed to them an actual deeper fear, the biggest fear, which is there is a God in heaven and you're damned to hell unless you repent of your sins and cry out and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
[00:12:39]  And that fear sets the stage for all of our fears to be relieved in the salvation that we freely receive in Christ.
[00:12:46]  Your testimony just reminds me of that.
[00:12:48]  It sounds like you probably heard a lot of messages about God's love and just not very many messages about His holiness.
[00:12:55]  That's right.

=== Loving Neighbors on the Street (09:41) ===

[00:12:56]  So, getting more at the topic at hand, dealing with abortion, what are some of the standards?
[00:13:02]  This would be my question.
[00:13:03]  So, I know that you and many members at Apologia, you go to abortion clinics, you stand outside, you preach God's word, you plead with people who are going in that they would reconsider that decision.
[00:13:18]  So, I guess one of my questions is this if Christians want to get involved in a ministry like that, what are some of the standards or the qualifications that a Christian should follow while ministering at their local abortion clinic?
[00:13:30]  For instance, what are some of the things that you guys say?
[00:13:34]  Like, would you want somebody ministering with you who's not a member of a local church?
[00:13:39]  Or would you want them to, is there a certain level of experience?
[00:13:42]  What are some of the things that, like, when people say, Yeah, I want to go with you and participate in this ministry, how would you prep them?
[00:13:50]  Yeah, I would first of all say, you know, it's so important that you're under the covering of your local church.
[00:13:56]  You have the blessing of your elders going out there before you go out.
[00:14:00]  That's really important because a lot of times you will see people kind of coming out as a lone ranger, and it doesn't usually go well if there's no accountability.
[00:14:09]  And that our motivation to go out before we even take one step out is that we're doing it out of love for God and love for neighbor.
[00:14:18]  And that is why we're doing it.
[00:14:21]  Two children every minute are.
[00:14:23]  Executed in our country, and so that's like 1.6 million a year, I think nearly 60 million since Roe.
[00:14:32]  Um, so just knowing the gravity of that, what's happening every day, um, kind of gives you an urgency to go out and kind of sets your mind at you know the daunting task ahead of what we're kind of looking at here this beast of abortion.
[00:14:50]  Um, but the necessity for Christians to stand up and go out.
[00:14:53]  But I would say, like, the qualifications would be yeah, go ask your um.
[00:14:58]  Your pastors, if you have their blessing.
[00:15:01]  And then, you know, there are many roles out there there are preachers, there are men preaching, there are women out pleading, there are women out handing blessing bags, people that hold signs, pass out tracks.
[00:15:13]  So I don't think you need any formal training or anything.
[00:15:16]  I know when I first started going out, I just held a sign and white knuckled it because I was so scared and nervous.
[00:15:25]  But as I went out more and more, it was kind of like, you know, working out.
[00:15:29]  At a gym or something, you know, you kind of train your muscles.
[00:15:32]  And I began to pass out tracks and then I began to have one on one conversations.
[00:15:37]  And the Lord kind of gives you more and more courage as you go out.
[00:15:42]  And also, as you see other people going out as well, it emboldens you.
[00:15:47]  And then, of course, when you see actual babies saved, that is a life changer.
[00:15:54]  And so, yeah, I would say the qualification is to be a Christian.
[00:15:58]  Yeah.
[00:15:59]  Yeah.
[00:16:00]  That's helpful.
[00:16:01]  Yep.
[00:16:01]  That's really helpful.
[00:16:03]  So, then what would you say?
[00:16:05]  So, this is something that I've heard Christians, Say fairly often, we have a group of individuals that will go to abortion clinics and preach on Saturdays and other times throughout the week.
[00:16:20]  I wholeheartedly believe in street preaching.
[00:16:22]  I think me and you might be talking about this on your podcast in the near future provoked, but I'm a big believer in riot evangelism.
[00:16:31]  As I look at the book of Acts, I think that I don't see a lot of friendship evangelism or relational evangelism, this idea that you have to earn a right.
[00:16:41]  To preach the gospel to someone.
[00:16:43]  I think that that right is already ours in Christ Jesus.
[00:16:47]  And ultimately, the right is that we, first, we've been loved by God.
[00:16:53]  Secondly, in return, we love God.
[00:16:55]  And thirdly, because we love God, we love our neighbor, like you're saying.
[00:16:59]  And we don't need our neighbor to be convinced that we love them before we love them.
[00:17:04]  Right?
[00:17:04]  So, like, that just, it's like circular reasoning.
[00:17:07]  It doesn't even make sense that, like, because relational evangelism, I think a lot of what it purports is it says, You need to convince your neighbor that you love them by not loving them, because the most loving thing you could do is preach to them the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ and his saving work at Calvary.
[00:17:23]  And so relational evangelism basically says you need to withhold love from your neighbor in order to convince your neighbor that you love them so that you can then begin to actually love them.
[00:17:34]  And so I would just reject the whole principle on its head.
[00:17:38]  That said, I believe in street preaching, I believe in riot evangelism, I believe in going in.
[00:17:45]  Preaching the truth and letting the cards fall where they may.
[00:17:50]  And so sometimes that means getting kicked out of a town.
[00:17:53]  Sometimes that means getting thrown in prison, you know, whatever it might be.
[00:17:57]  But a lot of people don't like that.
[00:17:59]  They don't think it's loving.
[00:18:01]  They don't think it's kind.
[00:18:02]  So, how do you respond to people like that who would say, you know, preaching outside of an abortion clinic or holding a sign or passing out tracts or pleading with people not to murder their children?
[00:18:14]  People who say that that's not loving, that doesn't look like Jesus, people who would reject street preaching in general.
[00:18:23]  The two things that I always hear is people say it's not loving, or if you can convince them that it's loving, I still hear people say it's not effective.
[00:18:32]  So, what would you say to the person who says this isn't loving, or if it is loving, I just don't see it being fruitful, I don't see it being effective?
[00:18:40]  What case would you make for why Christians should minister in this way?
[00:18:45]  Yeah, I mean, to say it quite bluntly and not to be rude, I would say, well, respectfully, you need to read your Bible.
[00:18:54]  Because all throughout scripture, we see the people of God being the salt and the light of the culture around them.
[00:19:01]  We see them bringing the gospel into conflict with the evil around us.
[00:19:06]  Like you said, bringing the light of the gospel is the most loving thing that we can do.
[00:19:13]  Real people are being murdered, people that are made in the image of.
[00:19:18]  I would say to a Christian of your God to our God, the image of our God is being slaughtered and executed every single day.
[00:19:28]  And so, while it may seem abrasive to you, we need to understand that urgency of what is happening.
[00:19:36]  And if you were being brought to the slaughter, if you were going to be systematic, you know, if you were being brought into a building to be killed, I sure hope that somebody would be there to contest what was happening.
[00:19:49]  So, yeah, it's biblical what we're doing.
[00:19:52]  Of course, there are bad examples.
[00:19:53]  I think sometimes people look at a bad example of street screechers or people that go out and do it in an unloving way, an unbiblical way.
[00:20:02]  But because it's done poorly doesn't mean that the act is actually wrong or biblical or unbiblical just because we have some bad examples.
[00:20:13]  We look to Christ as our perfect example and not to other people.
[00:20:19]  Yeah, so that's what I would say.
[00:20:21]  That's great.
[00:20:22]  Yeah, that's great.
[00:20:23]  I think we want to imitate all of Christ, we want to be like Jesus.
[00:20:28]  And one thing that I've just always had to wrestle with as a pastor is there are certain aspects of Jesus that I think.
[00:20:37]  Basically, the sentiment is that Christians will say, Yeah, well, I want to imitate Christ in one arena, but not another.
[00:20:45]  And so, like, I think of Christ and his polemic, the sense that his discourse with the religious rulers of his day, which is different than what you're doing at an abortion clinic, it's not a showdown between you and the Pharisees.
[00:21:02]  But even, you know, just even Christ's polemic and, you know, he uses satire.
[00:21:08]  He would use even.
[00:21:09]  Sarcasm, you know, like you strain a gnat but swallow a camel, or your whitewashed tombs.
[00:21:17]  You look nice and bleached and clean on the outside, but on the inside you smell like rotting death.
[00:21:22]  And that's strong language.
[00:21:24]  And so we look at Jesus and we say, well, that's Jesus.
[00:21:28]  But then in the same breath, we say, well, we should imitate the way that Jesus loves.
[00:21:32]  And it's like, well, yeah, but so what makes you think that you can love like Jesus does?
[00:21:38]  Nobody loves like Jesus does, but we try.
[00:21:41]  And nobody's going to have the courage that Jesus has.
[00:21:46]  But we try.
[00:21:48]  And so the fact that some people have, the fact that we fail to love like Jesus does doesn't stop us from saying, you should love like Christ.
[00:22:00]  And the fact that we fail to preach and evangelize and be bold as Jesus is, those bad examples like the street screecher who's just.
[00:22:12]  Screaming and yelling, and it's hateful, and it's just kind of, I don't know, maybe he's just trying to get a viral YouTube video or something, and it's not really loving.
[00:22:23]  Well, the fact that, I mean, that would be like looking at someone who's trying to love like Jesus and failed at loving, and then we just say, for all Christians, let's just, from now on, let's just not try to love anymore.
[00:22:34]  That's just, you know what I mean?
[00:22:35]  That just, it's absurd.

=== Voting Conscience in a Broken World (07:47) ===

[00:22:37]  Yeah, I agree.
[00:22:39]  I knew you would agree.
[00:22:40]  Okay, so, well, that being said, In line with abortion and kind of getting a little bit political here, that's one of the kind of arenas that we want to apply theology to.
[00:22:53]  I think that's just, it's become a no no in the Christian world that, you know, just churches and pastors and pulpits just shouldn't deal with politics.
[00:23:02]  But in the same way as Christians, we have multiple identities.
[00:23:05]  Our truest identity is that we are in Christ, we are adopted sons.
[00:23:10]  God is our beloved father, and Christ is our elder brother.
[00:23:14]  And so our truest identity, we're a new creation in Christ Jesus.
[00:23:18]  But then at the same time, I who am in Christ, Joel Webbin is in Christ, but he's also a husband, a father, a pastor, and I'm also a citizen of the United States of America.
[00:23:28]  And so I have responsibilities in vocation and in the home and as a citizen.
[00:23:34]  I have civil duties, all these things, and the Word of God applies to all of it.
[00:23:38]  And so that said, I think that Christians have a duty to vote.
[00:23:44]  And I think that we have a responsibility to vote for life, character matters.
[00:23:51]  But at the end of the day, I think policy matters even more.
[00:23:56]  And so, in a perfect world, if we had two God honoring candidates with God honoring policies and then one had better character than the other, then we would vote for the one with better character because character does matter.
[00:24:07]  But sadly, we don't live in a perfect world and we do live in a two party system where you may have bad character, but if one policy is for life and another policy is for murder and all forms of sexual immorality, then I think as a Christian, the choice is clear.
[00:24:24]  But sadly, not every Christian thinks that way.
[00:24:27]  And so recently, someone that I respect and appreciate very, very much, John Piper, he recently wrote an article called Policies, Persons, and Paths to Ruin.
[00:24:42]  And he dealt with kind of really kind of just pitting abortion and arrogance against each other and really kind of made a case, I think, for.
[00:24:56]  Just not voting at all, or sadly, I don't think this was his intention, but I'm concerned that some Christians will look at that article and use that as an opportunity to assuage their conscience for not voting or even voting for Biden and voting for the Democratic Party and abortion.
[00:25:15]  And so I'm just curious at a political level, you want to go to abortion clinics, you want to preach the gospel, you want to adopt children as a church, all these different things, but at the political level, do you think?
[00:25:28]  What do you think about Piper's article?
[00:25:29]  Do you think that a Christian with a clear conscience could vote in this upcoming election for Biden?
[00:25:35]  Or what do you think?
[00:25:38]  Yeah, like you said, I have so much respect for Pastor Piper.
[00:25:42]  I mean, I've followed him for years, listened to his daily devotional, been so blessed by his books.
[00:25:49]  And yeah, I have so much esteem and love for John Piper, but I disagree with him on this one.
[00:25:58]  We're kind of.
[00:25:59]  Looking at a category difference, I think, between arrogance and child slaughter and the destruction of the family unit.
[00:26:08]  We know, so I didn't vote for Donald Trump in 16.
[00:26:13]  I did, did I?
[00:26:14]  Like a lot of Christians just couldn't do it.
[00:26:18]  My conscience wouldn't allow me to do it.
[00:26:21]  But we're going into 2020, and we know that a Democrat, Biden or whoever, is going to want to usher in.
[00:26:31]  More child sacrifice to fight for that quote unquote right.
[00:26:37]  They want to bring in the destruction of the family through LGBTQ, you know, the BLM statement.
[00:26:46]  I think that they've removed it from their mission statement now, but it did say they want to destroy the nuclear family, the idea of the nuclear family.
[00:26:56]  And so we know that these ideologies are going to be ushered in by a liberal president, right?
[00:27:03]  We know Trump has his own sins, and I know the sin of pride and arrogance and adultery and whatever else is very, very important.
[00:27:13]  And I'm not saying it's not egregious.
[00:27:16]  But can you imagine if we were living in the times of slavery and we had two presidents that were up for the presidency, or two people, two men up to be elected, one who was going to promote the ongoing slavery and brutality of Black people, and one that was going to fight against it?
[00:27:38]  But maybe this guy, he was arrogant or he just was a sinner.
[00:27:44]  And who should we vote for?
[00:27:46]  They're both sinners.
[00:27:48]  One's going to fight to end something, the other one's not.
[00:27:52]  And it's not only, I mean, I feel like, you know, the destruction of the family unit and abortion are like the two big ones.
[00:27:59]  We could just stop there.
[00:28:01]  But it's also, like you said, the social Marxism, you know, it's just socialism.
[00:28:08]  Like there's just so many things that I think that.
[00:28:11]  If we step back and go, okay, how do we do this, God?
[00:28:15]  How do we glorify you and our vote?
[00:28:17]  I think we're going to go towards the person and platform that is more in line with what God wants us to do than the other.
[00:28:26]  And I'm sorry, but the Democratic platform is anti God, it's anti Christ.
[00:28:32]  And so I think that we can vote for Trump with a clear conscience because we know he's not promoting.
[00:28:39]  So I've had people say, You know, how can you vote for a serial adulterer?
[00:28:44]  Well, his platform's not promoting serial adultery.
[00:28:48]  It's different.
[00:28:49]  Biden's platform is promoting the murder of children.
[00:28:55]  So that's it.
[00:28:56]  Yeah, that's a great point.
[00:28:58]  Like, there's, yeah, I just think it's a false dichotomy.
[00:29:00]  So I love what you said right there at the end.
[00:29:03]  There's a difference in having marred character versus actually having a platform, an agenda that's pushing towards sin, that's pushing towards.
[00:29:16]  Immorality.
[00:29:17]  So to have a flawed man pushing for righteous policies, righteous policies, not a righteous man, not righteous character, as far as I can tell, I hope that Donald Trump's a Christian, but as far as I can tell, if I had to guess, I'd say probably not.
[00:29:34]  And because one of the truest marks of a Christian is repentance, and he doesn't seem like a man who's willing to admit when he's wrong, just statements that he's made, like, you know, I don't ask for forgiveness.
[00:29:47]  My, you know, what I do instead is just Don't ever do anything wrong.
[00:29:51]  So, you know, so that's not a very Christian statement.
[00:29:54]  So, none of that is to endorse the person, the man.
[00:29:58]  But there's a difference in being a sinful man advocating for a righteous policy versus being, in the case of Biden, being also a sinful man, but who just looks a little more clean cut, but who's advocating for a policy of rank immorality.
[00:30:20]  Murder, perversion.

=== Breaking Monopoly Pride (05:36) ===

[00:30:24]  So I think for me, the dichotomy is false in that regard.
[00:30:28]  I think it's also false because it assumes that one party, or in this case, one individual person, has a monopoly on pride.
[00:30:40]  And the idea that I think that just fundamentally misunderstands the nature of pride.
[00:30:47]  And so nobody has a monopoly on pride.
[00:30:52]  When it comes to pride, we're all socialist, we share.
[00:30:56]  Everybody gets a piece of pride.
[00:30:58]  And so, really, you're not looking at the prideful guy versus the LGBT abortion.
[00:31:09]  It's two prideful people, and there are just variations in the way that pride is expressed.
[00:31:15]  One is much more, it's just a much more blatant, visible expression of pride.
[00:31:20]  But even that, right?
[00:31:22]  So, I think of, like, Hollywood might make a movie, for instance, where the movie's very, there's just the whole theme and the style of the movie is very dark.
[00:31:34]  And it's filled with drugs.
[00:31:35]  I think of Breaking Bad.
[00:31:38]  So I didn't watch all of Breaking Bad because it was too bad.
[00:31:43]  But I watched some of the episodes and I started feeling convicted.
[00:31:46]  But the point is this at the end of a Breaking Bad episode, nobody walks away thinking, I'd really like to start making crystal meth.
[00:31:57]  So even though it's all about drugs and it's all about selling drugs and building an empire and taking over a whole area and all this kind of stuff.
[00:32:08]  Even in the name of the show, it's breaking bad.
[00:32:11]  It indicates, it clearly conveys this is immoral, this is wrong.
[00:32:15]  And the result of the lead character is that his life is utterly destroyed.
[00:32:24]  And so, even though it contains all these different expressions and types of immorality, it doesn't glorify them.
[00:32:34]  And so, I think there's a difference in sin being present versus sin being glorified.
[00:32:40]  And so to relate that to Trump, when I look at his Twitter account, I don't think, man, arrogance looks good.
[00:32:53]  I should try it out.
[00:32:56]  When I look at his Twitter account, I think, gosh, that's so embarrassing.
[00:33:01]  Why did he say that?
[00:33:03]  Dear God, do I sound like that?
[00:33:05]  I hope I don't sound like that.
[00:33:07]  Those are kind of the responses that I have.
[00:33:09]  Whereas Joe Biden, I think theologically, there's no way that we could, for one, this just can't even really be measured because we're dealing with someone's heart.
[00:33:19]  But number two, even if we could somehow measure it, I doubt that Joe Biden is actually more humble at the level of the heart.
[00:33:29]  Because out of the heart, not only does the mouth speak, we see that with Trump, that mouth is speaking, but out of the abundance of the heart, the hands and the feet are swift to shed blood, right?
[00:33:41]  It's a prideful heart that kills a million babies a year.
[00:33:45]  There's no such thing as a humble heart that murders children.
[00:33:50]  That does not biblically exist.
[00:33:52]  That's a false category.
[00:33:54]  And so, in order to have those policies, it assumes, from a biblical standard, pride.
[00:34:03]  So, I think biblically, we have to look at both candidates and both parties and say both are arrogant.
[00:34:09]  And one's arrogance is much more visible, a much more visible expression at the level of speech.
[00:34:20]  But not in a glorifying way.
[00:34:22]  If anything, every Christian I talk to comes away the way I do and saying, I don't want to sound anything like that.
[00:34:29]  I'm embarrassed for him.
[00:34:32]  But then the other one has a sensible demeanor and a warming charm and a good smile.
[00:34:45]  And it actually looks so for me, I think with sin, I'm always more concerned about the sin that looks more appealing, the sin that is more subtle.
[00:34:54]  And yeah, and so I just, so anyways, I look at that and to say the dichotomy is arrogance versus abortion, and arrogance, you know, has more, you know, potentially more eternal ramifications than murder.
[00:35:08]  And first, I don't even know if that's true.
[00:35:11]  And then secondly, I just think it's a false dichotomy.
[00:35:13]  It's not arrogance versus abortion.
[00:35:15]  Both are arrogant.
[00:35:17]  Nobody has a monopoly on pride.
[00:35:18]  We have two different expressions of pride.
[00:35:22]  One is more blatantly arrogant, but also in many ways doesn't glorify arrogance, but actually makes it look Bad and unappealing.
[00:35:29]  It actually, I think, works as a deterrent for Christians away from wanting to be arrogant.
[00:35:35]  But then the other, I think, arguably, is probably just as prideful at the level of the heart, but actually makes arrogance look good at the level of speech.
[00:35:44]  And then with policy and action, it's hands and feet that are swift to shed blood, engaging in all kinds of immorality, and not just a history of adultery, but by policy, pro adultery, pro sexual immorality, pro murder.

=== Faith Over Lawlessness (04:00) ===

[00:36:01]  And so I just.
[00:36:03]  For me, I just don't even understand how the two can be compared.
[00:36:08]  And I think my biggest concern as a Christian, as a pastor, is just my concern is that although I think the highest I feel that you could possibly think about John Piper, I don't think that he recognizes.
[00:36:24]  I know John Piper is not malicious.
[00:36:26]  I know that his intentions aren't wrong or immoral.
[00:36:31]  But I just think that there is just, to me, it's just another example that the church.
[00:36:37]  Historically, at least for the last few decades, it's just seemed to be so ignorant and weak on politics and the implications.
[00:36:49]  And yeah, and I just, I don't, I'm concerned that there would be a lot of Christians because there's so much influence with a man like John Piper.
[00:36:59]  I'm concerned that there would be a lot of Christians, not that necessarily will vote for Biden, but who are gonna go out and who are gonna try to vote for life.
[00:37:09]  Not a Twitter account, but policy and life, but who now have been given an excuse, have had their consciences assuaged to do nothing.
[00:37:20]  And I think that's, I don't know.
[00:37:22]  What do you think?
[00:37:23]  Do you think that's a fair assessment?
[00:37:25]  I do.
[00:37:25]  I do.
[00:37:26]  I really like the way you explained all that.
[00:37:28]  And yeah, we have to fight this beast with everything we've got.
[00:37:34]  Obviously, you and I agree that abortion is going to be ended by the gospel being preached and people being.
[00:37:42]  Brought from death to life, being able to see it for what the evil that it is.
[00:37:47]  But I also think that these people that now see that should do everything that they've got in their power to stop it, including voting for a platform or a person that's going to more likely help us to do that.
[00:38:02]  So, Amen.
[00:38:04]  Yeah, we go ahead.
[00:38:05]  I'm sorry.
[00:38:06]  Go ahead.
[00:38:06]  Oh, I just, I was kind of talking about it with the elders and some of the deacons, right?
[00:38:12]  Is always coming in.
[00:38:13]  And one of the deacons had said something that I thought was.
[00:38:17]  Was insightful, and he said, You know, because we all love Pastor Piper so much.
[00:38:21]  And one of the deacons said, Hey, I love John Piper, but maybe he just has never put flesh and bones on this thing.
[00:38:30]  Maybe he's never held a baby that's been saved by abortion.
[00:38:34]  I think Pastor John Piper has an adopted child, if I'm not mistaken.
[00:38:39]  That's right.
[00:38:39]  So, and I know that he's had some amazing sermons and talks about abortion and what an abomination it is.
[00:38:47]  And I know he's very adamantly.
[00:38:50]  An abolitionist, I think.
[00:38:52]  You know, he wants it to end immediately.
[00:38:55]  But sometimes we can kind of step away and not really see things as clearly if we don't put flesh and bones on it.
[00:39:04]  You know what I mean?
[00:39:05]  It's kind of an abstract concept rather than an actual living person in front of me.
[00:39:12]  Yeah.
[00:39:12]  Yeah.
[00:39:12]  I think that's probably true.
[00:39:14]  I think that's insightful.
[00:39:15]  Like just maybe at just a personal level being a little bit too far removed.
[00:39:20]  I think that's possible.
[00:39:21]  And I think.
[00:39:22]  For me, I think probably also just I know that he wants abortion to end and he's worked very hard toward that.
[00:39:32]  I think there's some guys I've just realized that it's not like a lack of commitment to fight against evil, but it's a lack of faith, not in God, but in terms of ending lawlessness through specific avenues.
[00:39:53]  And so, like you said, You know, that ultimately we're going to end abortion through preaching the gospel and hearts going from death to life.

=== State Power and Christian Office (05:55) ===

[00:40:02]  And so you're speaking of ultimately the church triumphs through not through coercion, but through and not even legislation, which would be coercion, but through persuasion.
[00:40:14]  And so to the church has not been given a physical sword.
[00:40:18]  Everything the government does, it does it at gunpoint, including, you know, requiring taxes.
[00:40:23]  Like if you don't pay your taxes, eventually someone will show up.
[00:40:25]  And if they show up and you still don't pay your taxes, eventually, A gun will come into the picture.
[00:40:30]  Everything that the government does is at gunpoint, meaning that it is coerced.
[00:40:36]  And that doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, so long as they're legislating righteously, then God has given them that gun.
[00:40:43]  Romans 13 says, a sword.
[00:40:44]  It's a physical sword to coerce, and it's meant to deter evil and to reward righteousness.
[00:40:51]  And to the church has been given a sword, but it's the sword of the spirit.
[00:40:55]  And so rather than a physical sword with coercion, it's a spiritual sword for persuasion.
[00:41:00]  And so we preach.
[00:41:02]  And we persuade and we deter evil in that regard.
[00:41:07]  And I think for some Christians, I think it's just still too much of that separation of church and state, which I know what they mean by that.
[00:41:17]  I agree.
[00:41:18]  But there's a difference between church and state versus a separation of Christ and state, right?
[00:41:24]  So we don't want a state run church and we don't want a church run state.
[00:41:29]  But when we say that the church and the state should be separate, we're not saying that Christ and the state should be separate.
[00:41:34]  We believe that the state should be Christian in the sense that it should legislate moral laws and morality.
[00:41:42]  Ultimately, the standard for morality is God's word.
[00:41:46]  So it's either man's law or God's law.
[00:41:49]  And so God's law is what should be legislated and what should be enforced.
[00:41:53]  And I think a lot of Christians have just forgotten that.
[00:41:57]  So it's not that they're apathetic.
[00:41:59]  It's not that they don't want to see abortion ended.
[00:42:01]  I think they just don't have any faith or even a theological framework for.
[00:42:08]  Ending abortion through the state, through legislation.
[00:42:12]  But, like, so, you know, we say, like, we're going to beat abortion through regenerate hearts.
[00:42:18]  And I agree with you.
[00:42:19]  At the same time, I would push back just a little bit and say, like, we as a nation, we've beat first degree murder outside of the children of the womb without regenerate hearts.
[00:42:30]  That's true.
[00:42:30]  A ton of people who are unregenerate, don't love Jesus in their heart, Romans 8, you know, 7, they're hostile towards God, not just neutral and different, but hostile towards God.
[00:42:40]  And yet, we have by policy on the books laws that a premeditated murder, you're going to be punished.
[00:42:48]  And that doesn't mean that murder doesn't happen, but we don't have a million murders, first degree murders, a year.
[00:42:54]  It's much smaller than that because, in God's law, the number one way he deters us from evil is by giving us new hearts.
[00:43:04]  But he also deters even the wicked from evil through a sword, through the threat of penalty, through coercion.
[00:43:15]  And I want Christians to get that.
[00:43:18]  Also, so I like, let's plant churches, let's make disciples, let's preach the gospel and see people converted from death to life.
[00:43:25]  But let's also take the Christians we have.
[00:43:28]  We don't have to win the whole nation in terms of each and every individual person being born again in order to outlaw abortion.
[00:43:36]  Those Christians who are Christians, let's go to abortion clinics, let's cry out, but let's also run for office.
[00:43:45]  We need Christians in the civil magistrate and fighting for.
[00:43:51]  And I think that we've just taken the whole realm of politics, the whole realm of civil magistrate and government officials, and we've just kind of, I don't know if we've demonized it, but I think we've just made it vain and empty and insignificant.
[00:44:08]  Whereas, like, every young man I talk to, if he's serious about Jesus, he wants to be a pastor.
[00:44:13]  Whereas, like, and that was me.
[00:44:15]  But now, I really want to encourage young men, if they're serious about Jesus, to also consider.
[00:44:23]  Running for local office.
[00:44:24]  And because we really do have the ability, a Christian in the state, in the church is one thing.
[00:44:31]  We preach, we persuade.
[00:44:34]  But a Christian, those multiple identities, you know, you're in Christ first and foremost, but then a husband and a father.
[00:44:39]  Well, if your vocation is that you're a senator who is a Christian following Christ, then to you actually has been given a sword to legislate through coercion, righteousness, and life.
[00:44:53]  And I think.
[00:44:55]  I'm not saying Roe versus Wade is going to be overturned tomorrow, but man, God continues to give us what we need rather than what we deserve.
[00:45:07]  I don't know why some of the things are happening that are happening right now.
[00:45:10]  We don't deserve it as a nation.
[00:45:13]  But God is being so merciful right now.
[00:45:15]  And I just feel like we have an opportunity.
[00:45:19]  And I think we need to seize it on every front on the church planting, preaching front, on the civil magistrate.
[00:45:26]  Run for office front on November 3rd, get off your butt and go vote front, you know, on every front.
[00:45:34]  Oh, absolutely.
[00:45:34]  And so, yeah.
[00:45:36]  And going back to what you said, you know, we see it all the time.
[00:45:39]  We see non believers fighting for things that you would think only believers would, you know.
[00:45:47]  So, I mean, look at all the Catholics that are out, you know, fighting to end abortion.
[00:45:54]  So, anyways, that's a perfect example.

=== Common Grace Among Catholics (05:50) ===

[00:45:58]  And I always say, like, when people say, like, can Catholics, Or, can Catholics be Christian?
[00:46:03]  I always say absolutely, despite Catholicism, but not because of it.
[00:46:09]  So, there are plenty of Christian Catholics, but the reason why they're Christian Catholics is because Christian Catholics are bad Catholics.
[00:46:16]  If they were good Catholics, they wouldn't be Christian because they would follow Catholic doctrine, which absolutely opposes.
[00:46:23]  Go ahead.
[00:46:23]  And then, like, we'll see, we'll be out just handing out gospel tracts sometimes, and it's the funniest thing happens.
[00:46:31]  A non believer will be like mocking us or scoffing, and they'll What do they do?
[00:46:36]  They get our tracks and they go and pass them out to other people.
[00:46:40]  Like, hey, look at this.
[00:46:42]  It's so fun in a mocking way.
[00:46:44]  But God will use the wicked for his own purposes.
[00:46:48]  So, yeah, I totally agree.
[00:46:50]  That happens?
[00:46:52]  Oh, yeah.
[00:46:52]  It's happened more than once where they'll grab and then they'll show their friends and they'll say, hey, did you see this?
[00:46:57]  And suddenly they're distributing tracts.
[00:47:01]  They're not doing it in a way their heart isn't in the right place, but they're still handing that gospel track over to somebody else to read.
[00:47:09]  Wow.
[00:47:10]  That's exactly what the Apostle Paul says, you know, when he says, like, some people, you know, while he was imprisoned, There are people who are preaching, and he says, and their exclusive motive is to mock me.
[00:47:24]  It's almost like they're preaching the gospel sarcastically.
[00:47:31]  But it's funny, like Paul says, but whether by false motives or true, I praise God that Christ is being preached.
[00:47:39]  And if these were people who were preaching a false Christ, Paul wouldn't be thanking God.
[00:47:44]  There are plenty of Judaizers and plenty of false teachers that Paul adamantly opposed.
[00:47:48]  And he said, you know, don't listen to them.
[00:47:51]  And, but then it seems like there's this other group that's like, they have the right message, but the wrong motive.
[00:48:02]  And Paul thanks God for that.
[00:48:04]  And so it's, yeah, it's funny that somebody could literally, they're not even doing it for the glory of God.
[00:48:12]  And for us as Christians, it's like, what?
[00:48:14]  Like, there's no reason to do the things we do as Christians and to preach the things we preach as Christians.
[00:48:22]  If not for the glory of God and the good of his people.
[00:48:25]  And yet, in God's providence, though, whether it be to mock Christians, whether it be sarcastic, or whether, I don't know, but we look through all of scripture and there's just example after example of like Cyrus or Nebuchadnezzar or King Darius, or there's just like example after example of people who it's not, it doesn't seem like they're a Christian, and yet they, for whatever reason, God raised them up.
[00:48:53]  To assist the people of God.
[00:48:56]  And that's how I think of getting back to politics.
[00:49:02]  That's what I think of.
[00:49:03]  I think Christianity and the Republican Party are not synonymous.
[00:49:08]  Republicanism is not the gospel, it's not the scripture.
[00:49:13]  And yet, in God's providence, there are measures of his common grace.
[00:49:20]  And I think of Ben Shapiro.
[00:49:23]  I praise God for Ben Shapiro.
[00:49:25]  Is he a Christian?
[00:49:26]  No, he doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God.
[00:49:29]  So, of course, he's not a Christian.
[00:49:31]  If he died tonight, he'd be in hell.
[00:49:33]  And I'd be super sad about that because I really love Ben Shapiro.
[00:49:37]  And, you know, but he's a wonderful example, I think, of God's common grace.
[00:49:41]  And right now, between Trump and his administration, we have, well, for one, we have examples of God's special grace.
[00:49:49]  Like I believe Mike Pence is a Christian.
[00:49:51]  But then we have so many examples of God's common grace.
[00:49:54]  And I think as Christians, I think that we just have to nuance it.
[00:49:59]  A little bit.
[00:49:59]  We have to just take the time in our language to say, look, I'm not saying that republicanism is the gospel.
[00:50:06]  I'm not saying that all these guys are Christians, but I am saying that there's a standard.
[00:50:11]  And so I'm able to look at policy.
[00:50:13]  I'm able to look at practice.
[00:50:15]  I'm able to look at people, at all these things, and I'm able to take that and measure it against the standard, God's standard.
[00:50:24]  And I'm able to look and say, all right, this man is not a Christian, but this policy.
[00:50:30]  Is in line with God's word.
[00:50:32]  And so I don't have to just, it's not black and white.
[00:50:35]  It's not all or nothing.
[00:50:36]  It's not, you know, I don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
[00:50:39]  I can thank God for his common grace.
[00:50:41]  I don't know why this guy is on my side.
[00:50:44]  I don't know why he's doing the things he's doing, but I'm able to identify that.
[00:50:50]  And I'm able to set.
[00:50:51]  So I don't have to say, Trump has an arrogant Twitter account.
[00:50:54]  Therefore, I'm never going to vote for him.
[00:50:57]  And I also don't have to, on the other side, I don't have to take a picture with Donald Trump and say that he's my mentor and the holiest Christian that's up.
[00:51:05]  You know what I mean?
[00:51:06]  And Christian, it's just like they're on both sides.
[00:51:08]  It's like either Donald Trump is the devil or Donald Trump.
[00:51:13]  Should, you know, when he's finished being the president, maybe he'll be my next pastor.
[00:51:17]  And it's like, what?
[00:51:19]  Like, it's more nuanced than that.
[00:51:22]  I can say, yeah, there's some concerning things.
[00:51:26]  And yet at the same time, there's some good things.
[00:51:29]  And we can take one without the other.
[00:51:31]  And I think we can just nuance it and just be a little bit more mature and a little bit more discerning and careful with our language.
[00:51:40]  And it doesn't have to be so black and white.
[00:51:43]  We thank God for common grace.
[00:51:46]  All right.

=== Nuanced Discernment for Listeners (04:17) ===

[00:51:48]  Well, any kind of last thoughts or ideas that come to you about the topic of abortion, how Christians, it doesn't have to be politics, but just any, I don't know, any takeaways of how Christians can do their part to end abortion?
[00:52:03]  Yeah, I just think of 1 John 3 18.
[00:52:06]  Little children, let us not love with word and tongue, but indeed in truth.
[00:52:10]  You know, like you said, we need to do everything we can to love our neighbors, you know, and that includes.
[00:52:18]  Boating and getting out there, go to the abortion clinic.
[00:52:22]  You know, I think it really starts at home, educating our children about the sanctity of life.
[00:52:29]  I talk to my children about it all the time.
[00:52:32]  And children, they know.
[00:52:33]  They know.
[00:52:34]  Like, I mean, I just had a baby and they knew that their little brother was their little brother from the time that he was conceived till the time he was born.
[00:52:44]  And so I think starting at home and raising up our children to, Fight this fight when we no longer can.
[00:52:52]  Hopefully, they won't have to.
[00:52:53]  Hopefully, it'll be ended before that.
[00:52:56]  But yeah, go out, go out to the abortion clinics.
[00:53:00]  Go vote for somebody that's going to be more in line with that.
[00:53:03]  Go adopt children.
[00:53:04]  There's so many things Christians can be doing, but we need to be the salt and we need to be the light and we don't need to shrink back.
[00:53:11]  I think now is the time to fight and we need to fight with all that we've got.
[00:53:17]  Amen.
[00:53:18]  Yeah, I like that.
[00:53:20]  I think that's a good way to end this episode.
[00:53:21]  It's just let's do it all.
[00:53:23]  I think that's That's the pushback that we would get is just some people would say, you know, don't go out there and preach at people at an abortion clinic.
[00:53:30]  Like, just adopt babies or just train your children about.
[00:53:34]  And I think I would want that person, if they're watching this, to just hear you and to hear me saying that, look, we're not advocating for one as a substitute for the other.
[00:53:44]  We do it all.
[00:53:45]  Go adopt a baby and then take that baby with you to the abortion clinic and preach life.
[00:53:53]  And so just do it all.
[00:53:55]  And yeah, so.
[00:53:57]  That's good.
[00:53:58]  Thanks so much, Desi, for coming on the show.
[00:54:01]  Can you tell us how to follow you?
[00:54:03]  I know some of our listeners would love to keep up with you.
[00:54:06]  Yeah, you can go to Apologia Studios.
[00:54:09]  We have a podcast called Provoke.
[00:54:12]  So you can look us up there where we have Instagram.
[00:54:16]  We're also on all the podcast platforms iTunes, Spotify.
[00:54:21]  Yeah, if you want to learn how you and your church can get more involved in the fight, you can go to End Abortion Now and get free resources and training.
[00:54:30]  There's a ton of good, amazing content on there on how to get started in doing abortion mill ministry.
[00:54:37]  And we've had churches all actually across the world that have joined, and we've lost count of how many babies have been saved through End Abortion Now.
[00:54:45]  So if that's something that you and your church are interested in doing, then yeah, go to endabortionnow.com and you can learn more.
[00:54:53]  Praise God.
[00:54:53]  That's great.
[00:54:55]  All right.
[00:54:55]  So for our responders, if you're not a responder, that's our club members.
[00:55:00]  We encourage you to become a responder, help support Right Response Ministries.
[00:55:06]  Getting the gospel and biblical resources in people's hands as a supplement to the local church.
[00:55:12]  It's a great help to us and as kind of a gift to you.
[00:55:17]  For our club members, we have our bonus reel.
[00:55:20]  And so Desi's going to stay on for a little after hours conversation.
[00:55:24]  And so, just to whet your appetite, our bonus question that me and Desi will be talking about is what did you think about Jeff Durbin's sermon at the Fight Laugh Feast Conference and some of the backlash that it's received?
[00:55:37]  And so I was actually there in person at the Fight Laugh Feast Conference, heard the sermon.
[00:55:42]  Spoil alert, I thought it was fantastic.
[00:55:46]  But some people don't really like it.
[00:55:47]  And Desi is, you know, Jeff is her pastor, and her husband's a deacon there at Apologia Church.
[00:55:52]  And so I was going to pick her brain and see what she thought.
[00:55:55]  So thanks for tuning in.
[00:55:56]  And if you're not a responder, become a responder and check out our bonus edition as me and Desi talk a little bit about Jeff Durbin and the Fight Laugh Feast Conference.
[00:56:05]  Thanks.