July 1, 2025 - America First - Nicholas J. Fuentes
02:41:02
Participants
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
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unidentified
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Not interested. | |
| I'm sorry. | ||
| I'm sorry, Brittany Betsy, but I just can't do it. | ||
| You're an e-girl. | ||
| You know the rule. | ||
| No e-girls. | ||
| Who's got the clip? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No e-girls. | |
| Never. | ||
| Hashtag never e-girls. | ||
|
unidentified
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Not even once. | |
| I've never heard of a big one. | ||
| Who's that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I've never heard of a big one. | |
| The Umer generation and its consequences have been a disaster for the human. | ||
| Americanism, not globalism, will be our freedom. | ||
| Americanism, not globalism, will be our freedom. | ||
| Not interested. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| I'm sorry, Brittany Betsy, but I just can't do it. | ||
| You're an e-girl. | ||
| You know the rule. | ||
| No e-girls. | ||
| Who's got the clip? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No e-girls. | |
| Never. | ||
| Hashtag never e-girls. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Not even once. | |
| I've never heard of a big one. | ||
| What is that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I've never heard of a big one. | |
| The Umer generation and its consequences have been a disaster for the human beings. | ||
| Americanism, not globalism, will be our freedom. | ||
| Americanism, not globalism, will be our freedom. | ||
| Not interested. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| I'm sorry, Brittany Betsy, but I just can't do it. | ||
| You're an e-girl. | ||
| You know the rule. | ||
| No e-girls. | ||
| Who's got the clip? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No e-girls. | |
| Never. | ||
| Hashtag never e-girls. | ||
|
unidentified
|
not even once I've never heard of a big one. | |
| What is that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I've never heard of a big one. | |
| The Umer generation and its consequences have been a disaster for the human. | ||
| Americanism, not globalism, will be our freedom. | ||
| Americanism, not globalism, will be our freedom. | ||
| Not interested. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| I'm sorry, Brittany, Betsy, but I just can't do it. | ||
| You're an e-girl. | ||
| You know the rule. | ||
| No e-girls. | ||
| Who's got the clip? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No e-girls. | |
| Never. | ||
| Hashtag never e-girls. | ||
|
unidentified
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Not even once. | |
| I've never heard of him. | ||
| What is that? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I've never heard of him. | |
| The Umer generation and its consequences have been a disaster for the human. | ||
| Americanism, not globalism, will be our freedom. | ||
| And we are live at 6:59 and 37 seconds. | ||
| The main transmission starts in 20 seconds. | ||
| We're getting Danes and Souza and Nick Fuentez on the video link right now. | ||
| So take a live fee from Rolls-Jones from Rumble, from Infowars.com forward slash show. | ||
| You're the Paul Revere's. | ||
| The big debate, uncensored, unfiltered, starts right now. | ||
| You're the Paul Revere's. | ||
| Share that link to defend the First Amendment and America. | ||
| We are the number one hated and attacked media organization in the world by every evil, disgusting, sickening organization on the face of the planet. | ||
| And I'm going to say it. | ||
| If you're going to go, go as big as you can. | ||
| That's why John Hancock literally saw people signing their names, Lil Bitty, and people he knew signing them. | ||
| You really couldn't tell who they were. | ||
| And I get it. | ||
| Every person signing that was signing their potential death warrant. | ||
| He got up there and went boom and he said, If I'm going to have the king coming after me, I want him to come after me, number one. | ||
| That's a pretty large signature, Johnny. | ||
| Yeah, and I'm going to risk my life fighting tyranny. | ||
| Anybody that's ever been in fights, you're not looking for fights, but you've been in a few. | ||
| You learn, you hesitate when somebody's trying to beat the hell out of you. | ||
| You're going to get your ass kicked. | ||
| But you just decide to beat the living hell out of them and stop worrying about who's winning. | ||
| And you're going to win almost every time unless you're fighting Mike Tyson. | ||
| I know people will knock you upside the head really hard and like sit back and look at what it did. | ||
| Or somebody will hit you in the side of the head with baseball bat and they'll kind of sit back and watch to see what it did. | ||
| I'm like a Terminator. | ||
| You're about to find out. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'll suck that bat up your ass and turn you into a popsicle. | |
| So that's what's going on here. | ||
| And I love it because we're drawing their fire. | ||
| We've exposed them. | ||
| We've drawn them out of their rat holes to do all of this. | ||
| The Soros scum and the Soros DA and just all of them. | ||
| They're filth. | ||
| They're disgusting tyrants. | ||
| Just like judges in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. | ||
| They're disgusting. | ||
| And it's like we're in the dark and they got night vision. | ||
| We're in a pitch black arena with no light and they've got their illuminators on and they can see us and we can't see them. | ||
| Well, guess what? | ||
| I walked over with my listeners collectively and pulled the switch and turned the lights on. | ||
| The real war's here with the Globalists and Soros and Obama and the New World Order and BlackRob. | ||
|
unidentified
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They've declared war on us and we accept the challenge. | |
| We're taking the country back. | ||
| Their attacks on Trump, their law fair, all the criminal activity. | ||
| How'd that work out for them? | ||
| They were dumb enough to brag. | ||
| Remember everywhere. | ||
| It'll be over for Trump when this mugshot comes out in Georgia. | ||
| Haha, we're finally getting it. | ||
| Every channel, remember? | ||
| It's the end. | ||
| The mugshot, the mugshot, the mugshot. | ||
| And then Trump nails it with a beyond Clint Eastwood, badass American eagle gaze of total defiance that everybody looks at and knows deep down that's the alpha male. | ||
| That's the badass. | ||
| That's the defiant real person. | ||
| You can't fake that look. | ||
| And then when they shot him, he got even more of that look, except the lips pulled down and the teeth bared and the eyes bugging out. | ||
| Yes, yes, we get to see who's really who at times like this, don't we? | ||
| And now the bad guys are gonna find out who's really who, aren't you? | ||
| Because the veneer of civilization is burning off. | ||
| And all the posers and all the thugs and all the boys who thought they had this country on its knees and cowed are now just beginning to understand that they have awoken the terrible giant. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Through the annals of time, beneath the clashing swords and roaring cannons, there raged another war, unseen yet all-encompassing. | |
| The InfoWar. | ||
| From the whispered conspiracies of ancient courts, to the fiery proclamations of revolutions, it was there. | ||
| When the flames of heresy consumed the thinkers of old, it was there. | ||
| When tyrants rose on the lies of propaganda and empires crumbled beneath the truth they couldn't silence, it was there. | ||
| The info war marched alongside the armies of men. | ||
| The battle was not just for land or power. | ||
| But these colonies are, and have a right ought to be, free and independent states. | ||
| But for the hearts and minds and souls of those caught in its wake. | ||
| More now than ever, the war rages on. | ||
| Nations crumble, ideologies clash, and voices rise in defiance. | ||
| For the battlefield of the InfoWar is everywhere, and everyone is a soldier. | ||
| Truth is your weapon. | ||
| Through every conflict, every uprising, and every moment of human struggle, the InfoWar was always there. | ||
| Which side are you on? | ||
| This is the fight for humanity. | ||
| This is InfoWars. | ||
| Real leadership, the essence of leadership, is showing people how it's done so that they understand it's the right way and getting them to adopt it. | ||
| And being a leader means you go against the tide when the tide is wrong. | ||
| You go against the crowd when the crowd is wrong. | ||
| You go against the establishment when the establishment is degenerate and sick. | ||
| And then by example and by confidence and by will and by strength, then the timid join you because then it costs nothing to be a patriot, quote the great Mark Twain. | ||
| In the beginning, the patriot is a scarce man, hated, feared, and scorned. | ||
| But in time when his cause succeeds, the timid join him because then it cost nothing to be a patriot. | ||
| The patriot is a scarce man, hated, feared, scorned. | ||
| But in time, when his cause succeeds, the timid join him because then it cost nothing to be a patriot. | ||
| And when you commit to something worthy and good, it is not a weight. | ||
| It is everything. | ||
| It is your greatest strength. | ||
| It becomes your soul to risk your life for freedom. | ||
| It's what God forged you in his mind as he created your soul before he even put you in your mother's womb. | ||
| He knew you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, here I am, on the road again. | |
| There I am, up on the stage. | ||
| Here I go, playing the star again. | ||
| There I go. | ||
| Turn the page. | ||
| Look there in the spotlight, you're a million miles away. | ||
| Every ounce of energy you try to give. | ||
| Give way as the sweat pulls out your body like the music that you play. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| you Well, this is what it's all about. | ||
| Tuesday evening, July 1st, 2025, 7.07 Central Standard Time. | ||
| I am your embattled host, Alex Jones, coming to you from Deep in the Heart of Texas, broadcasting worldwide this evening. | ||
| And we are about to host a two-hour, uncensored, unfiltered, real debate. | ||
| Not where there's a whole bunch of canned questions, not where it's a bunch of corporate shills up there controlling the narrative, but where two very intelligent, at the same time, very different people from their perspective have a real debate. | ||
| They can go three hours if they want. | ||
| We're scheduled for two. | ||
| But when we get into the next hour, we will take questions. | ||
| We're going to post very soon up on X above the live feet of this, so we can get some of those questions in from X and have your questions. | ||
| I have a few questions for later. | ||
| I imagine those will already probably be answered on both of their own prerogative. | ||
| So Dinesh D'Souza, I've known him for 20 years, was watching him and saw speeches he gave when he worked for Ronald Reagan as a cabinet official, best-selling author, filmmaker, former political prisoner, a true American success story. | ||
| Dinesh D'Souza.com on X at Dinesh D'Souza, host of the D'Souza podcast. | ||
| And then the 26-year-old phenomenon. | ||
| I mean, I've known who this guy is for nine years. | ||
| Exploded on the scene during the 2016 campaign, Nick Fuentez, America First, at NickJ. | ||
| Fuentez, NicholasJ. | ||
| Fuentez.com. | ||
| And he's very proud of his commoner roots, which I am as well. | ||
| But he's Nicholas J. Fuentez is by always sent us as a college dropout from Chicago. | ||
| He was in his early 20s, 26. | ||
| He worked on a campaign for Donald Trump in 2016 and hosts a nightly show called America First that is reaching tens of millions of people a day conservatively. | ||
| So both men are very different in different ways, but obviously in general, are obviously both very articulate and very popular. | ||
| And so we're not going to have classic debate standards here, but I want to give each person a five-minute opening statement here tonight. | ||
| And I should also add, I mean, you know, you can see the promos and everything, why you're here. | ||
| We're having a debate about the Iran-Israel war slash crisis, APAC, lobbies, the Mulahs, sleeper cells, the FATAWA, unprecedented issued by the number three Mulah calling for Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu's death and basically death for anybody that supports them. | ||
| They admittedly have big sleeper cells. | ||
| I mean, this is a declaration of war. | ||
| It's gotten very little coverage. | ||
| I think Trump's trying to ignore it and hoping it's just a threat. | ||
| But this is off to the races. | ||
| So I'm going to flip this silver coin to decide who is going to have the first five minutes here. | ||
| So I'll just say Dinesh D'Souza's heads, Nick Fuentez is tails. | ||
| Here we go. | ||
| And it is Dinesh D'Souza. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| So we will go now to Dinesh D'Souza and get his first five minutes. | ||
| Then we'll go right to Nick Fuentez. | ||
| And then after that, you probably won't hear from me for almost 30, 45 minutes. | ||
| I'm going to try to shut up and have a real debate because there's nothing more frustrating than these debates where there's constant eruptions. | ||
| So Dinesh, thanks for accepting this debate. | ||
| And I'm glad it happened, glad it got done. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| You've got the floor for the next five minutes. | ||
| Thank you, Alex. | ||
| Welcome, Nick. | ||
| I am looking forward to our debate. | ||
| And, you know, it's, I'm thrilled to do it because free speech has been under attack. | ||
| And you guys, Alex, Nick, Laura Loomer, and others have been deplatformed. | ||
| I am a strong opponent of all of this. | ||
| And for this reason, even though some people were like, why do you want to debate Nick Fuentes? | ||
| I'm like, no, there are taboo issues here that are being raised. | ||
| They're not being adequately discussed. | ||
| Some people run away from them. | ||
| I don't run away from them. | ||
| And I think it's a good idea to sort of have it out. | ||
| And so that's really why I'm here. | ||
| I want to defend Trump. | ||
| I want to defend MAGA, make America great again. | ||
| I want to defend America first. | ||
| It seems to me we have a big disagreement here about what America first means. | ||
| And that's what I want to talk about. | ||
| When we talk about making America great again, it's important to think about what made America great in the first place. | ||
| Now, one obvious answer to that is that America became great by kind of looking inward and attending to its own problems, going back to the founders. | ||
| But that is not only not entirely true, it's not true at all. | ||
| Right after the American founding, Thomas Jefferson found out that there were these Barbary pirates in the Middle East. | ||
| Now, they weren't attacking America. | ||
| They weren't starting a war over here. | ||
| But Jefferson basically dispatched an armed force to collobber them, to beat the heck out of them. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because they were disrupting our interests. | ||
| They were disrupting our trade. | ||
| They were hurting our position in the world. | ||
| So even though we had this infant democracy, collobbering bad guys is something that we started doing from the very beginning. | ||
| Now, fast forward to, you know, Alex, you and I are in Texas, and let's talk about the middle of the 19th century. | ||
| Again, America's building a strong country. | ||
| It's focused inward. | ||
| But guess what? | ||
| We get into a big war with Mexico. | ||
| The Mexican War lasts about four years. | ||
| We start it. | ||
| We started the Mexican War. | ||
| We go over there, get our troops into Mexico City, clobber the Mexicans, take a good chunk of Mexico, including a good chunk of Texas. | ||
| Later, large parts of the country that were not part of America become added to the country. | ||
| And we do this basically by force. | ||
| Now, we have good reasons for it. | ||
| I'm not going to go into the reasons, but the point is we did it. | ||
| Fast forward now, I'm going to omit World War II and focus on Reagan. | ||
| The Soviet empire is gaining strength. | ||
| The Soviet Union grabs nine countries, 10 countries actually, between 1974 and 1980. | ||
| They don't attack us. | ||
| They're not waging war over here. | ||
| And Reagan does not start a war with them either. | ||
| But what he does do is he starts clobbering them in all kinds of ways. | ||
| He clobbers them in Afghanistan. | ||
| He clobbers them in Somalia, in Angola, in Mozambique, in Nicaragua. | ||
| And we do it by supporting armed forces that are repelling these Soviet armies, and we win the Cold War. | ||
| Who can deny that the world is better off and America is better off? | ||
| That is America first. | ||
| And that is making America great again. | ||
| So when we're talking about making America great again, it has never meant, and it doesn't mean for Trump, a kind of isolationism. | ||
| I would even deny that it means no new wars. | ||
| And I say that because no president, no president who takes an oath to support the Constitution can make that absolute guarantee. | ||
| There are all kinds of scenarios, and I'm happy to lay out about six of them, in which the United States would be drawn into a war. | ||
| And so the pledge is made as a statement of principle, but Trump is the commander in chief, and it's his decision to make at a given time when the situation is dangerous enough that there should be a war. | ||
| Now, there isn't a war going on in Iran, but I do want to say about the Iranians this. | ||
| They are not a regional power like Iraq. | ||
| This is, I think, one of the key differences. | ||
| A lot of people think Iran is Iraq, you know, and Saddam Hussein is the same as the mullahs and Trump is the same as Bush. | ||
| He's becoming like Bush. | ||
| No, Iran has a global ideology and they always have. | ||
| The reason that they chant death to America, they also chant debt to Israel, but death to America is the main chant and debt to Israel is the secondary chant. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because we are the main enemy. | ||
| We are the great Satan. | ||
| Israel may be the little Satan, but we are the great Satan. | ||
| And we are controlling Israel, not the other way around. | ||
| At least that's how the Iranians see it. | ||
| The little Satan is not telling the great Satan what to do. | ||
| It's actually the opposite. | ||
| The Iranian goal is a global caliphate that obviously involves global supervision, Sharia law, bringing it here, infiltrating this country, terror cells. | ||
| And the nuclear weapons are just taking this global ideology and giving it enormous power. | ||
| There's an old saying that says, what do you say to what do you call a dictator who has nuclear weapons? | ||
| And the answer is, sir. | ||
| What that means is that when a guy gets nukes, he's on a completely different level. | ||
| You've got to, in a sense, be deferential in a way that you otherwise wouldn't. | ||
| So here's Iran. | ||
| They are cooking these nukes. | ||
| They are building this uranium. | ||
| They're enriching it way beyond any peaceful purposes. | ||
| And Trump says, look, it's in our interest that they not have this weapon. | ||
| Yes, it's in Israel's interest as well, but we're not doing it for Israel. | ||
| We're doing it because we don't want them to have a nuclear weapon. | ||
| Okay, Dinashi, that's about five and a half minutes. | ||
| We'll come back to you. | ||
| You guys have a free-for-all in a moment. | ||
| Nick Fuentez and something you said Danash, I'm just going to add a small caveat and then go back to you guys. | ||
| Because I meant to say it up front. | ||
| I appreciate you doing this debate. | ||
| I appreciate Nick and you guys having this idea. | ||
| I forget who came up with it, but I think, if I remember correctly, Nick challenged you and you said sure. | ||
| And then, you know, here we are two weeks later. | ||
| So thank you both for doing this. | ||
| But exactly, what we're doing is what the left, who is diabolical against free speech, does not want. | ||
| They don't want real debates. | ||
| And so this is very, very healthy and very, very pro-freedom, pro-America. | ||
| I appreciate you both for being here. | ||
| I just wanted to add that. | ||
| So thanks for reminding me, Desha'Souza. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Nick Fuentez, you've got about five and a half, six minutes because Dinesh went a little bit over because I didn't stop him. | ||
| So Nick Fuentez of America First. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Well, thank you very much. | ||
| And I'd like to start out by saying as well, I appreciate Dinesh D'Souza for doing the debate. | ||
| And I actually appreciate him saying that, because it is true we have both been brutally censored. | ||
| And I know that Dinesh was also targeted by the Obama administration. | ||
| So, you know, we're really all sort of in the same boat in terms of we've all been persecuted to some extent. | ||
| So I appreciate him saying that. | ||
| But I'd like to move on and get into the subject of the debate. | ||
| And I actually like how Dinesh framed it. | ||
| I agree with him. | ||
| The central question concerning the Iran war is what does America first mean? | ||
| What is the United States involvement in Iran or what should it be? | ||
| And how does that conform to the stated goal of putting our country first, making America great again, and pursuing the American strategic interest? | ||
| And without going into the Barbary Wars or Reagan or any of that, we don't need to go back that far. | ||
| I think we need to talk about the current strategic landscape in the Middle East. | ||
| And we need to get some things down first analytically before we proceed. | ||
| And I'm actually going to pick up where Dinesh left off at the end and kind of start with that premise, because that is, I think, the mainstream premise. | ||
| Let's say that's a status quo accepted premise of the U.S. media or the conservative media is that Iran is an apocalyptic regime. | ||
| They have global ambitions. | ||
| They're led by religious zealots and fanatics. | ||
| They're racing Towards a bomb because they want to attack Israel and the United States. | ||
| And I would say that with that analytical framework, you probably would say that it's justified that we go to war with Iran. | ||
| I would probably agree under those circumstances. | ||
| But I would clarify a couple of things. | ||
| Let's say that in the first place, this is not the first regime that has been described this way. | ||
| When we were at war with the Soviet Union, it was conservative military planners that said the exact same thing. | ||
| They said the Soviets are a nihilistic death cult. | ||
| We can't negotiate with them. | ||
| Khrushchev said, we will bury them. | ||
| They want to destroy the United States. | ||
| Of course, we negotiated with them. | ||
| Of course, Nixon had détente, and eventually we negotiated with Gorbachev, and the wall came down, and we didn't have to go to war. | ||
| We said the same thing about Maoist China. | ||
| They killed 70 million people. | ||
| They're a communist death cult. | ||
| We negotiate with them all the time. | ||
| They joined the World Trade Organization. | ||
| I don't think anybody would argue that communism is not a nihilistic, global ideology with ambitions to take over the planet. | ||
| It certainly did. | ||
| It always had. | ||
| Yet we negotiated. | ||
| Let's also talk about Iran's nuclear program. | ||
| And once again, let's sort of do some housekeeping. | ||
| Iran does not have a nuclear bomb. | ||
| They're not currently pursuing a nuclear bomb. | ||
| And what you would call Iran is a nuclear threshold state. | ||
| They're engaging in something, and this is technical, it's called nuclear hedging. | ||
| This is where you have the technology, the expertise, and the infrastructure to make a nuclear weapon, but you don't actually build one. | ||
| Why do you maintain the threshold latent nuclear status? | ||
| You maintain that in the event that the security situation changes. | ||
| There's a few countries, actually, not just Iran, they're in the exact same boat. | ||
| And those countries are South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. | ||
| They're all considered nuclear threshold states. | ||
| They have the expertise, the infrastructure, the technology to make a bomb. | ||
| Why do they have that expertise? | ||
| Why do they maintain the threshold status? | ||
| Because they're on the doorstep of China. | ||
| China is a much more powerful country, and they themselves have a native nuclear program. | ||
| They engage in nuclear hedging in the event that they need to deter a threat from a regional adversary. | ||
| Does this sound familiar? | ||
| Why is Iran pursuing nuclear hedging? | ||
| Why do they have a threshold status? | ||
| They have this because Israel is the only country in the Middle East, actually, that has an undeclared nuclear weapons program. | ||
| They have a nuclear arsenal of 200 bombs. | ||
| They're not a signatory on the NPT. | ||
| Israel is the only country with a nuclear arsenal and they're Iran's sworn enemy. | ||
| Let's also talk about the history. | ||
| The United States overthrew the government of Iran in 1953. | ||
| A democratically elected prime minister wanted to nationalize Iran's resources and put Iran first. | ||
| He was overthrown by the CIA. | ||
| The United States installed a brutal dictatorship. | ||
| The Iranian people revolted against it. | ||
| Ever since, the United States and Israel have been at war with Iran. | ||
| And we've destroyed all their neighbors. | ||
| We went into Iraq and overthrew Saddam Hussein. | ||
| All right, Nick, I just said five minutes. | ||
| It could have been 10 minutes. | ||
| You guys are both smart. | ||
| Could talk for hours. | ||
| So at this point, just let Dinesh come back and counter that. | ||
| And then you guys just, this is a real debate. | ||
| You guys can have a free-for-all. | ||
| So I'll just pitch it back to Dinesh. | ||
| You can leave off where you were stopping there. | ||
| Nick Fuentes, go ahead. | ||
| Yeah, terrific. | ||
| I mean, Alex, I think you only jump in if we are interrupting too much and can't make our points or either hogging all the time. | ||
| And I think otherwise, I'm happy to just go back and forth. | ||
| I'd like to just address a few of these points and we can kind of get into it further. | ||
| So I'll start by kind of correcting a couple of points that I think are just fallacious. | ||
| The first one is the idea that the Soviet Union was said to be some kind of a maniacal nihilistic power. | ||
| No one ever said that. | ||
| Not only that, but the whole premise of mutually assured destruction or mad was based upon the idea that you have two completely rational adversaries, and each of them understand that the deployment of nuclear weapons, the one against the other, will meet with catastrophic retaliation. | ||
| Never once did we dream that Khrushchev was like a suicide bomber or Brezhnev or Andropov or Chernenko or any of the Soviet leaders going back to Lenin. | ||
| We knew that they valued their lives. | ||
| We saw them as protecting their own interests. | ||
| So the idea that there's some kind of a, we've heard all this before with Russia and China, that's not true. | ||
| The idea of negotiating with the Soviet Union was the liberal idea. | ||
| It was the idea that when you make treaties, people behave themselves. | ||
| And I think Reagan exposed that to be fundamentally stupid. | ||
| It misses what human nature is all about. | ||
| It misses the lessons of Machiavelli and Klauswitz and Sun Tzu. | ||
| It misses the idea that treaties are simply disguised ways that powerful countries advance their own interests. | ||
| No one is going to sit down and make a treaty because they want to. | ||
| You make treaties because you have to. | ||
| You make treaties by and large in which you can see things that you would have lost anyway on the battlefield. | ||
| Now, let's look at Iran, for example. | ||
| If it's true, first of all, a word about Mozadek. | ||
| I kept, I heard Nick use the word democratically elected. | ||
| Mozadek was not democratically elected. | ||
| He was not elected by the Iranian people. | ||
| He was in fact appointed by the Shah. | ||
| Let's remember that the Shah was in power in 1953. | ||
| So if you have a dictator who's running the country, how does someone get democratically elected? | ||
| So I think this is actually taking up a talking point from the left and a bogus talking point also. | ||
| By the way, the first thing that Mozadek did when he came in, he dissolved parliament. | ||
| So this democratically elected guy dissolves the very parliament that supposedly put him into power. | ||
| So he was an autocrat, in some ways no different than the Shah. | ||
| There was a power struggle. | ||
| Yes, the CIA was involved. | ||
| Mozadegh was overthrown. | ||
| In my view, that was a very good thing. | ||
| Now, some people will say, well, that's what caused the Iranian revolution. | ||
| Wrong. | ||
| The Mozadegh business was in 1953. | ||
| The Iranian revolution was in 1979. | ||
| Are you telling me that the Iranians were really mad, but they decided to go on a 25-year vacation and then decided, okay, now let's work ourselves up into a frenzy 25 years later? | ||
| The reason we got Iran is basically because of Jimmy Carter. | ||
| Jimmy Carter decided that the Shah was a desperate. | ||
| He didn't want to support the secret police. | ||
| He pulled the Persian rug out from the Shah and basically we got Khomeini. | ||
| So this is the nincum poopery of Jimmy Carter. | ||
| He tried to get rid of what he saw as the bad guy and we got the worst guy. | ||
| I didn't respond to that, but we're going to jump in a bunch. | ||
| This is a great debate, but we're kind of doing a history lesson debating history. | ||
| Go as long as you guys want. | ||
| We go three hours if you want. | ||
| I hope we get into the current stuff, the FATAWA, Trump saying they may have a peaceful Monday, the Israel lobby, all of that. | ||
| But I'm going to stop there. | ||
| Nick, come back. | ||
| You guys start going back and forth here. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| I would come back and, you know, I don't want to turn it into a big history thing about the Soviet Union and communism, but I would say that's simply not true. | ||
| I mean, it was credible. | ||
| And this is what the Pentagon believed in the late 60s and early 70s, is that the Soviets thought that they could survive a first strike against the United States. | ||
| The idea that mutually assured destruction was always the law of the land. | ||
| There's this revolution in diplomacy because of nukes. | ||
| It's just belied by doctrine. | ||
| And during the 60s and 70s, we believed the Soviets are more powerful than us. | ||
| They had more nukes than us. | ||
| And we thought that they were going to strike us first. | ||
| They thought they could survive it. | ||
| And the rhetoric about the Soviets was the same. | ||
| They have this global ambition, domino theory. | ||
| They want a global revolution. | ||
| It was exact same stuff that they say about Iran. | ||
| And yet we never invaded the Soviet Union. | ||
| We didn't need regime change in the Soviet Union and to go in and decapitate the regime with airstrikes. | ||
| It just isn't true. | ||
| We negotiated. | ||
| So I would say that's in the first place, but we don't need to relitigate the history of the Cold War. | ||
| In the second place, the Mossadegh, it's really neither here nor there, the exact particularities here. | ||
| The point is this. | ||
| The United States and Israel pursue regime change across the entire region. | ||
| That's the point I'm trying to make. | ||
| And I didn't get to finish in my opening statement. | ||
| We overthrew Iran's government once. | ||
| And you admit it's a CIA coup in 53. | ||
| In 1979, the people are furious because of the secret police, because of the white revolution, because of the reforms that were made under the Shah. | ||
| They overthrew the Shah's government, the Western-backed government, because they saw it as a puppet. | ||
| And the Islamic Revolution enjoyed broad support in Iranian society. | ||
| What took place ever since then is regime change, one regime change operation after another. | ||
| Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria, you name it, whether it's the Arab Spring and it's these soft power color revolution coups or ground wars or it's civil wars. | ||
| That's the business we do. | ||
| And we do it no matter who it is. | ||
| We do it against secular dictators. | ||
| We do it against people that cooperate with us and those that don't. | ||
| Gaddafi gave up his nuclear weapons in 2003. | ||
| We backed airstrikes against him anyway in 2011. | ||
| We backed Saddam at one point. | ||
| We oversaw the dismantlement of his nuclear program. | ||
| We went to war against him in 2003. | ||
| We said we weren't going to war against Assad in Syria. | ||
| We did. | ||
| He's now overthrown and now you have ISIS in power. | ||
| This is the history of the Middle East. | ||
| And this gets to the reason of why Iran wants a nuclear weapon. | ||
| It's not because they want to kill everybody. | ||
| It's not because they're fanatical and we can't negotiate and they're trying to bring about the end times and the escaton. | ||
| It's because they want to deter the same fate, regime change, what happened to all of their neighbors. | ||
| That makes them rational. | ||
| Let me stop you. | ||
| I said I was interrupting. | ||
| You guys are both too polite. | ||
| Every two or three minutes, I'm going to make you pause. | ||
| That goes back to what Dinesh was just saying earlier. | ||
| He's like, when North Korea has nukes, we say, sir, which I get that, and I don't want them having nukes. | ||
| They do, and ballistic missiles hit us. | ||
| But that then begs the question, Iran, if we can hedge and maybe have some hidden, then that speaks to why they would want a nuke. | ||
| I mean, Dinesh, there's a lot to say here, but go ahead. | ||
| Yeah, one of the mullahs, right in the middle of all this, one of the key mullahs made a very key admission. | ||
| He said, this is not about Iran. | ||
| This is about Islam. | ||
| Right there, you get the heart of the matter. | ||
| These mullahs, and yes, there was a broad-based Iranian revolution, but the mullahs in that power struggle took power. | ||
| And they have ruled dictatorially over Iran now since 1979. | ||
| They've made the Iranian revolution semi-permanent. | ||
| But the key to understanding that revolution going all the way back from when they seized the American hostages to the strike on Beirut 1982 to the fact that Iran has been sponsoring terrorism, not just in the region, they have tentacles in Venezuela. | ||
| They have tentacles in South America. | ||
| They have cells in the United States. | ||
| They are making an alliance with Russia and China to create a kind of axis of power. | ||
| So to the degree, Nick, that you're saying that this is a global chessboard, I agree. | ||
| And I think that, in a way, puts an interesting question for us, which is that isn't it a fact that there is a jihadi or radical strain of Islam? | ||
| This ultimately is what is driving a lot of these radical Muslims, right? | ||
| They are Hezbollah, Hamas. | ||
| It doesn't matter whether they're Shia or Sunni. | ||
| Hamas is Sunni. | ||
| Why is Iran funding Hamas? | ||
| Because they don't care about those distinctions at the end of the day. | ||
| At the end of the day, they care about whether you're an infidel, yes or no. | ||
| This radical Islam is a global ideology. | ||
| Look, you can say the mullahs keep saying it, I don't believe it, but you should believe it. | ||
| When the Russians said that they wanted a global triumph of communism, they meant it. | ||
| We took it seriously. | ||
| And by the way, we didn't end the Soviet Union through some sort of a treaty. | ||
| We ended the Soviet Union by bankrupting them. | ||
| Reagan ultimately defeated them in the Cold War. | ||
| It was not a treaty. | ||
| It was they were out of gas. | ||
| They couldn't compete in an arms race. | ||
| We were building MX missiles and putting multiple warheads on them. | ||
| We were building a missile shield. | ||
| We were supporting guerrilla revolutions around the world. | ||
| That's ultimately Afghanistan became, by their own admission, a bleeding wound. | ||
| So this is why the Soviets gave in. | ||
| They didn't give in. | ||
| No country ever gives in because of a treaty. | ||
| The idea that communism abolished itself, Eastern Europe was freed because we put a piece of paper in front of them. | ||
| They went, oh, okay, let's get rid of all this stuff. | ||
| We were once a global empire. | ||
| We'll now become a second-rate superpower. | ||
| That's not how it happened at all. | ||
| And that's a misunderstanding of Iran. | ||
| Islam is a conquering force. | ||
| The Muslims came out of the Arabian desert. | ||
| How do you think they conquered the Holy Land? | ||
| They took Jerusalem. | ||
| They took Syria. | ||
| They took Jordan. | ||
| They conquered Iran by force. | ||
| That's how they got it. | ||
| They are the occupier of Iran. | ||
| Okay, Dinesh. | ||
| And by the way, you're both very smart men. | ||
| I've studied the history. | ||
| You're both accurate in the basic facts. | ||
| Very interesting. | ||
| I'm not saying the general public's dumb, but even really smart political people really, most of them can't find Iran on a map. | ||
| So I don't want to throw this in. | ||
| I figured very smart, Dinesh. | ||
| You're not trying to throw the debate away here, but very smart to get into America versus Iran up front. | ||
| I was imagining, and I'm not trying to steer this, though I want to spend some time on it, The whole issue of Israel and the Israel lobby and where that sits, because I know that's Nick's bailiwick. | ||
| And, you know, so that's just something I'm throwing out there as well, because that's why a lot of Americans have seen, I'm not saying I love the Islamicists or any of this, but we've seen regime change. | ||
| Now, the former head of Al-Qaeda in charge of Syria. | ||
| We see, you know, Hamas being, you know, Israel helped set it up, you know, as a counterbalance. | ||
| Then we've got, you know, Iran, you know, all of this. | ||
| And so I think a lot of Americans just don't believe the intelligence establishment, even though I wouldn't cry at night if the mullahs fell. | ||
| So, I mean, what about the APAC-Israel issue in all of this, Dinesh, for like a minute? | ||
| Can I respond actually to what he said? | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| I apologize. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| No, you're fine. | ||
| I just want to have equal time. | ||
| But I mean, with regard to this, there is just like this. | ||
| And, you know, forgive me if this sounds, I'm trying to be cordial here, but I do believe there is this engine in the United States from the conservative movement that says it is about Islam. | ||
| You know, this is Glenn Beck's book. | ||
| This is sort of the Fox News mantra. | ||
| It is Islam. | ||
| Islam is the problem. | ||
| And I'm not an Islamist. | ||
| I'm a Catholic. | ||
| I'm not pro-Islam. | ||
| And I wouldn't even call myself pro-Iran. | ||
| I'm pro-America. | ||
| And to sort of narrow the discussion, let's talk about Islamism. | ||
| Let's talk about jihadism. | ||
| I agree with you. | ||
| There is an element of jihadism in the Middle East. | ||
| There are these radical Muslims that they want to return to the faith of the pious ones, the ancient Muslims, the first two or three generations of Muslims. | ||
| They come from Saudi Arabia. | ||
| Hezbollah, Hamas, the Iranian-backed groups do not attack Americans on American soil. | ||
| They're not global powers. | ||
| They're local powers. | ||
| They're regional powers. | ||
| They don't attack the United States. | ||
| They may attack the United States in Beirut or Iraq because the United States is in their territory. | ||
| We're in the Middle East. | ||
| We're in their neighborhood. | ||
| We're backing Israel's brutal war on Lebanon in the 80s, where they commit massacres, castrating people, scalping people, you know, brutal atrocities that are well documented that Israel, I mean, their own commission blames Ariel Sharon for this, the defense minister. | ||
| So, you know, they don't attack us on our soil. | ||
| The terrorists that do attack us are Wahhabist. | ||
| They're Salafist. | ||
| That comes from Saudi Arabia. | ||
| Saudi Arabia spent billions of dollars promoting Wahhabism, which is the ideology of al-Qaeda, of ISIS. | ||
| We backed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan. | ||
| We backed bin Laden. | ||
| We do arms deals with Saudi Arabia. | ||
| And you know what? | ||
| To some extent, this radicalism is going away. | ||
| And it came from Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, these other places. | ||
| And it's going away because we made a deal with Mohammed bin Salman. | ||
| We did arms deals throughout. | ||
| We're allies throughout, buy oil from them throughout. | ||
| We didn't invade Saudi Arabia and install a Western liberal democracy. | ||
| You know, we don't like your regime. | ||
| We're going to drop bombs on you. | ||
| We negotiated with them over time. | ||
| And by the way, they were the biggest problem. | ||
| As far as Iran is concerned, it's important to analytically determine their strategic interest because that's how you determine what we have to do about it. | ||
| Israel wants regime change in Iran. | ||
| That's why Iran wants a bomb to deter this, which is a credible fear. | ||
| Now, the United States won't let Iran have the bomb. | ||
| Now, if you want to give Iran the Soviet Union treatment and bankrupt them through maximum pressure and sanctions, that's what we were doing. | ||
| But you're calling for regime change. | ||
| We didn't do regime change in the Soviet Union. | ||
| We allowed them, and we went in there actually. | ||
| George Bush managed it, I think, in a good way. | ||
| We managed a peaceful transition to power after a long period of soft power and smart power that we used against them. | ||
| You're saying we need to go in and invade Iran, or not maybe invade Iran, but force them to have regime change with CIA operations, foreign media, maximum pressure sanctions, backing Israeli operations. | ||
| And I would say that's not in America's interest. | ||
| That's what Israel wants. | ||
| That's not what we want. | ||
| Regime change has a terrible track record from Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Syria. | ||
| There's zero success stories. | ||
| I think that I agree with you in some sense. | ||
| We don't want a nuclear Iran, but we need to understand why we're on the threshold of one. | ||
| And that has to do with Israel's ambitious and aggressive actions. | ||
| In my opinion, the move is restrain Israel, stop them from attacking Iran, get Iran to come back to the table and try to get them to agree to some kind of framework like the JCPOA. | ||
| And maybe we could talk about the JCPOA because to me, that is the most important precedent. | ||
| I am trying to equal time. | ||
| I was throwing a quick question back to Dinesh to give you a longer response because I kind of, I'm glad we're having this debate. | ||
| I just figured it would be about the current situation. | ||
| I love the history, but we're kind of still in that. | ||
| And I'm glad you guys are so informative trying to educate people. | ||
| But just in general, you guys can wherever you want, counter back what he was saying today. | ||
| But then I would like to just interject the current crisis. | ||
| Where do you see it going? | ||
| The FATOA, Trump saying, I'm going to kill, you know, you're lucky I don't kill you. | ||
| I might kill you, the Iranian leader, which I support Trump and loving, but that was provocative. | ||
| I mean, and also ask you guys where you think this is going and is there a path for peace and then a larger debate, which I figured you guys would get into first about the Israel lobby. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Let me say some things about regime change to lay a foundation of what I think the MAGA view on this is. | ||
| Because I think the MAGA view on this is a repudiation of Bush, but it's not a repudiation of Reagan. | ||
| In fact, it's a restatement of the Reagan principles, although admittedly in a very different situation. | ||
| Obviously, in the 70s and 80s, the Reagan focus was on the Soviet empire. | ||
| The situation now is totally different. | ||
| But there are a lot of really bad regimes in the world. | ||
| And these are regimes that harm our interests in all kinds of ways. | ||
| So ask a simple question. | ||
| Is it in our interest for these really bad regimes, and I'll be happy to go through a list and we can agree on what they are, would it be a good idea for these regimes to have change? | ||
| For the bad guys who are running these regimes to go, get away, for the regimes themselves to be toppled, and for something else to take their place? | ||
| So if we look at Iran, for example, I would say, I am willing to take any chance on getting rid of the mullahs, these jihadi mullahs, these people who wish death to us and are building up the means to do it. | ||
| Oh, and I don't know. | ||
| Okay, maybe Nick's right. | ||
| Maybe he's wrong. | ||
| I tend to believe the mullahs over Nick. | ||
| They say that they want to have global jihad. | ||
| They say that they want a global caliphate. | ||
| They say that they're building up the strength to do it. | ||
| They're allying with other people who certainly do have nuclear weapons and do have that kind of power. | ||
| So would it be a good idea to have regime change in Iran? | ||
| Would it be in our interest? | ||
| Forget about Israel. | ||
| Of course it would. | ||
| Now, a separate Question is, what are we willing to expend for that to happen? | ||
| So, my question to Nick is: all right, let's start at the very beginning. | ||
| Would you be willing to expend 50 cents to get the mullahs to leave, to quit, to go home, to become refugees and go to other countries? | ||
| They can go to luxury apartments in Qatar and elsewhere and let the Iranian people have a plebiscite. | ||
| We're not going to go in there. | ||
| We're not going to arrange tribal meetings. | ||
| We're not going to take over the country. | ||
| We're going to let them fix it. | ||
| I would be very confident that what comes after, whatever it is, it could be autocracy, it could be democracy, it could be some hybrid, is going to be better than what's there now. | ||
| So I think Nick is so blinded by his hatred of Israel that he's losing sight of America first. | ||
| He's become automatically friendly to the mullah. | ||
| So he's giving them a much more rational account of the Iranian interests than he even gives of American interests. | ||
| I mean, every time he talks about America, he uses the phrase we. | ||
| But let's remember that we've had alternating regimes between Republicans and Democrats. | ||
| So he mentioned the Arab Spring. | ||
| The Arab Spring was basically an anti-American operation organized with the help of Barack Obama. | ||
| Barack Obama wants Iran to have nukes. | ||
| He was trying to create space for them to do that and give them money to enable them to do that. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because Obama has an ideology that's anti-American. | ||
| So we can't just say we and take the blame for what Obama did. | ||
| Okay, Dinesh. | ||
| I'm just watching the clock trying to just be a referee here. | ||
| Good points. | ||
| Nick. | ||
| Well, that's a lot to tackle there. | ||
| I would say in the first place, we, and I have to address this first, just to get it out of the way. | ||
| When you say we take the mullahs at their word, you're citing obscure one of their clerical leaders. | ||
| And you say, well, that guy said it's about Islam. | ||
| That defines their whole regime. | ||
| If you want to take them at their word, let's go to the supreme leader. | ||
| The supreme leader is the top cleric in Iran, the top cleric in Shiite Islam. | ||
| It's in their constitution. | ||
| Supreme leader's got to be a cleric. | ||
| The Ayatollah promulgated a fatwa 20 years ago that says that attaining nuclear weapons and using them is against Islamic law. | ||
| And that has been cited over and over again in 2005, in 2015. | ||
| In recent negotiations, they say the supreme leader says it's contrary, and I could give you the quotes, completely to Islamic doctrine to have nuclear weapons. | ||
| So you can't have it both ways. | ||
| You can't say we're going to take them at their word when one guy in the government says we're going to take over the world. | ||
| But you can't have it both ways and say we can't listen to the supreme leader say we don't want nuclear weapons. | ||
| We have to do one or the other. | ||
| I'll just say that first. | ||
| Then we get further and we get into this question. | ||
| Nick, if you may I ask you a question about that. | ||
| Okay, sure. | ||
| Okay, go ahead. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Well, so, and then with regard to regime change, I would contend that regime change is just not desirable. | ||
| You say, you know, well, how much are you willing to expend to pursue regime change? | ||
| I'm saying I don't think it's desirable. | ||
| And here's the evidence for this. | ||
| You say, well, I'm confident something better will happen. | ||
| There'll be this democratic plebiscite. | ||
| What is the history of regime change? | ||
| When Osni Mubarak was overthrown in Egypt, you got the Muslim Brotherhood, Islamism, Muhammad Morsi. | ||
| When Gaddafi was overthrown, you get warlords, you get civil war. | ||
| When Syria was overthrown, you get ISIS. | ||
| You get this guy al-Julani, who's literally from ISIS and al-Qaeda. | ||
| In Afghanistan, you still have the Taliban. | ||
| If we overthrow Iran, and by the way, here's the other evidence. | ||
| When Israel attacked Iran two weeks ago, they thought that the government would collapse and the people would rise up and they would overthrow the government. | ||
| This is what they said for years. | ||
| The opposite happened. | ||
| The people rallied to the supreme leader. | ||
| They said we're under attack from a foreign entity. | ||
| They actually rallied in the streets and there were major funeral processions for the martyrs, the IRGC leaders that were killed. | ||
| They rallied behind the government. | ||
| If anything, if this government goes down, I don't know where you think we're going to get something better. | ||
| We're going to get something more hardcore. | ||
| The reason why it matters to articulate Iran's interests is to say if their worst fear is regime change, which is the credible fear of all leaders, every leader wants to stay in power. | ||
| No leader wants to meet the fate of Gaddafi. | ||
| No leader wants to be deposed and live in exile. | ||
| If their credible fear is regime change and we pursue that in one form or another, and it's a little naive to say they're going to come together and have a new government, CIA and State Department and Israel will be all over that, just like they have in all these other operations. | ||
| You're going to get hardliners. | ||
| You're going to get IRGC commanders that said, our worst nightmare happened. | ||
| Now we really got, now we're really in an apocalyptic war. | ||
| Now we're really, this is the end times. | ||
| The United States overthrew us. | ||
| So I'm against research. | ||
| I'm going to watch the clock here. | ||
| Do you want to answer Ninesh's question or just go back to Dinesh? | ||
| Was that what question? | ||
| I mean, the exact question, Desh, you had a question there? | ||
| Oh, well, I've forgotten what the question was. | ||
| There's a lot being talked about here. | ||
| I'd rather respond to this larger theme here a little bit because, look, I mean, Nick, you're 26, and so it's understandable that your view of history, you keep saying history, a regime change has a bad history. | ||
| And the history you give is like four years old. | ||
| You know, your compass is so narrow that you don't understand that I could give you 40 examples of regime change through history that have all worked out beautifully. | ||
| Some recent, some more ancient. | ||
| There was regime change in Spain. | ||
| Franco fell. | ||
| Spain became a democracy. | ||
| You had autocrats all over South America. | ||
| Those regimes all changed. | ||
| Many of those countries are much better off as a result. | ||
| The United States produced regime change in Mexico. | ||
| There was a dictator named Santana. | ||
| He was the one who actually came and fought against us in the Alamo and in Texas. | ||
| Ultimately, Santana was overthrown. | ||
| That was excellent regime change. | ||
| I'm not even counting, of course, the Nazi regime in Japan in World War II. | ||
| The Soviet Union was regime change of an excellent quality. | ||
| So regime change sometimes works and sometimes it doesn't work. | ||
| A lot of times it depends kind of on who does it and how. | ||
| Now, here's a key point. | ||
| And of course, you know, Alex has brought up Israel. | ||
| I want to get into Israel. | ||
| So I'm happy to do that. | ||
| Here's the point I want to make. | ||
| It is very much, in my view, in our interest and Israel to have regime change in Iran. | ||
| And if Israel is willing to do it, I would say more power to them. | ||
| I think Trump is stopping them. | ||
| Trump says, no, I'm going to save the life of Khamenei. | ||
| And so Trump, in this sense, I think, is more allergic to the risks of regime change and willing to keep the mullahs in power. | ||
| But what's really important here is Israel is not controlling Trump. | ||
| It's the other way around. | ||
| If you leave it to Netanyahu, you leave it to the Knesset. | ||
| They would like to overthrow the mullahs and they have the power to do it. | ||
| And the fact that they're not doing it shows that, again, to use my old phrase, the great Satan is controlling the little Satan and not the other way around. | ||
| There's another example just from today. | ||
| Trump is basically pressuring Nedan Yahoo to have a 60-day ceasefire in Gaza. | ||
| Now, first of all, Israel has every moral right to level Gaza. | ||
| And what I mean by that is quite honestly, when a country attacks you, when you are invaded, just like if there's a home invasion, some guy comes into my house, rapes my wife, kills my daughter, kills my kids, and then he runs away and I chase after him. | ||
| And of course, I chase his car down. | ||
| I stop him. | ||
| He jumps out of the car, grabs his own kids and sticks them in front of him. | ||
| And then he goes, don't shoot because women and children are in front of me. | ||
| No, what you've done, you put your children in danger, first by invading my house and second by using them as human shields. | ||
| I am not under any moral strictures based on what you did to me. | ||
| I have every right to attempt to destroy you and the suffering of your women and children is the result of your actions and not mine. | ||
| So my point is, once you had October 7th, and October 7th, by the way, bankrolled by Iran, planned in Iran, Israel has every right, strategic, moral, political, to strike out at Gaza and to strike at Iran. | ||
| And so the United States is the one that's tying their hands. | ||
| And so once again, even with this Gaza treaty, you can see that the man in charge, the numero uno, is not Netanyahu. | ||
| It's Trump. | ||
| Okay, so I want Nick to be able to come back. | ||
| I got to say something here. | ||
| Dinesh, you're a great guy. | ||
| I respect you. | ||
| Love your films. | ||
| Interview 20 years. | ||
| But the analogy of somebody breaking your house, raping and killing your wife and daughter, then you chase him down so he uses his kids. | ||
| They're still innocent. | ||
| And look, I get it. | ||
| 50,000 dead in Gaza. | ||
| The whole liberal media making it the biggest thing ever. | ||
| I'm sad it happened. | ||
| The left loves the war in Ukraine, over a million dead. | ||
| And I know somebody did it during World War II, and Israel's argument. | ||
| But to say then if somebody uses their own kids as human shields, I don't know if somebody killed my wife and daughter. | ||
| They use their kids as human shields. | ||
| I'd wait till they dropped the kids or I'd, you know, whatever. | ||
| I just think it's an oversubhistor. | ||
| You wouldn't wait till they dropped the kids. | ||
| You would look for a clean shot at them. | ||
| But if you accidentally hit their kids, whose fault would it be? | ||
| Yours or theirs? | ||
| I get your point. | ||
| That's fair, Touche. | ||
| So go ahead, Nick. | ||
| I'll stop interrupting. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Well, forgive me, but I have to do this. | ||
| You know, you said that I'm a young man and my view of history is so short. | ||
| Well, let's talk about some of your history here. | ||
| You were a big supporter of the war in Iraq. | ||
| And I want to actually read and go back to what you said about it in 2003 and 2007, because I think this is fair. | ||
| You said in 2003 that Saddam's support for terrorism, his attempt to acquire nuclear weapons, makes him an imminent danger to world peace and security. | ||
| That was in 2003. | ||
| Four years later, you said the important point about the wars is that 50 million Afghans and Iraqis are free. | ||
| And for the first time in their history, they can control their own destiny. | ||
| Liberals emphasize the negative and relish the failures of American foreign policy. | ||
| Now, there's a lot of other quotes here, but this speaks to the kind of hubris of the neocons, of the interventionists, of advocates for regime change, which is just like in 2003, there is this alarmism. | ||
| They support terrorism. | ||
| They're building nuclear weapons. | ||
| Now, both of those things turned out not to be true. | ||
| There was no connection between al-Qaeda and Saddam. | ||
| Saddam did not have nukes. | ||
| Then there's this justification after the fact. | ||
| Well, you know, it doesn't matter because it's going fine. | ||
| Well, 20 years later, guess who took over Iraq? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Iran. | |
| Iran filled the power vacuum. | ||
| Guess who retook over Afghanistan? | ||
| The Taliban. | ||
| So, you know, you can talk about like Germany and Japan. | ||
| I think those things are fundamentally different for starters because Japan attacked us first on our soil in Hawaii. | ||
| I mean, that's fundamentally different. | ||
| But in terms of regime change, this does harken back to Iraq. | ||
| And I've seen your videos where you talk about the dissimilarities between the two situations. | ||
| I think they're very similar. | ||
| Now, as far as Iran, I don't even want to get into Gaza because that's a little bit, we can later, but I want to talk specifically about Iran. | ||
| In one of your videos, you say, well, unlike Iraq, where we had to rely on government intelligence with Iran, we know about their facilities. | ||
| We know where they are. | ||
| We've seen the tunnels. | ||
| We've seen the centrifuges. | ||
| We know what they're doing. | ||
| Well, isn't that sort of precisely the point? | ||
| When the United States made the nuclear deal with Iran, they adhered to it for years. | ||
| The deal was made in 15. | ||
| And from 15 to 2018, the IAEA said they were in compliance with the deal. | ||
| They had 24-hour monitoring, they had cameras, they had inspections, and they were in compliance with the deal. | ||
| It wasn't until a year after Trump pulled out of the deal and forced all the other Europeans to pull out as well. | ||
| And we reneged on our commitments. | ||
| We pulled out and didn't give them sanctions relief. | ||
| We, through secondary sanctions, forced the Europeans to pull out and they didn't get sanctions relief. | ||
| It was only until 2019 that Iran started to gradually reneg on their commitments. | ||
| And it went in succession where America killed Qasem Suleimani, which is one of their generals. | ||
| Then Iran began to enrich without limitations. | ||
| They enriched and they engaged in all nuclear activities without any kind of restrictions. | ||
| It wasn't until 2021 when Israel attacked Natan's twice, cyber attacks and sabotage attacks, that Iran began to enrich to 60%. | ||
| Every action has this equal and opposite reaction. | ||
| Iran was a partner in 2001. | ||
| Iran helped us build the Northern Alliance. | ||
| They helped us put Kaiser or Karzai in power in Afghanistan. | ||
| A few months later, George Bush calls them the axis of evil. | ||
| This is how we treat Iran. | ||
| Now, you guys interrupt each other just every few minutes. | ||
| Maybe I should just go bing. | ||
| And the other person interrupts you guys. | ||
| They're so polite. | ||
| Dinesh. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Well, first of all, I want to do a mea kalpa here because I was wrong about the Iraq war. | ||
| Not because I said Iraq had new. | ||
| I'm sorry about the Iraq war. | ||
| Not because I said Iraq had nuclear weapons. | ||
| Of course, you remember with George W. Bush, the claim was that they had these so-called weapons of mass destruction. | ||
| Not quite the same as nukes, but the idea was it could be chemical weapons. | ||
| It could be a weapon that could kill a large number of people. | ||
| Now, this information, which was given to us from high levels in the U.S. government, I think was the first case of where we learned that we can't always trust the government. | ||
| And we can't trust the government because these intelligence agencies have their own agenda. | ||
| And this was a neocon scam. | ||
| And I got to say, I might have been a little too deeply in the neocon world. | ||
| I went for it. | ||
| But unlike a lot of the neocons, I broke with them. | ||
| Most of my former colleagues at AEI won't speak to me. | ||
| I left the neocon camp, which is now basically the never Trump camp. | ||
| And I came into the Trump camp because I think the Trump was based on the idea that, look, we've learned some valuable lessons from the Iraq war. | ||
| And that is this idea of trying to occupy other countries is a great mistake. | ||
| By the way, the United States had every right to blow up the Taliban, to chase them out of power. | ||
| Those were the guys who supplied the monkey bars for 9-11. | ||
| So if you're talking about a direct attack on the United States, yes, it was al-Qaeda, but the Taliban was a hospitable regime that trained them. | ||
| What we should have done is turned to some rival tribes, some war, there are plenty of warlike tribes in Afghanistan and said, listen, we're going to turn it over to you. | ||
| You keep kicking their ass from now on, and we're out of here. | ||
| But we didn't do that. | ||
| We went over there. | ||
| We started conducting meetings and talking about women's rights and a whole bunch of nonsense. | ||
| And the whole thing backfired on us. | ||
| So that's a bitter lesson that we've learned. | ||
| And I think I'm with you on that, Nick. | ||
| All right. | ||
| But Iran is a different animal. | ||
| And I think this is the key. | ||
| Iran is the one that is threatening Israel, not the other way around. | ||
| What does Israel want out of Iran? | ||
| You think Israel wants to go occupy Iran? | ||
| You think Israel has designs on Iran? | ||
| Israel has one of the smallest, most God-forsaken pieces of earth on the planet. | ||
| They are just trying to hold onto it. | ||
| And by the way, it's theirs. | ||
| Now, what do I mean by that? | ||
| This is a very important issue because how do you get a country? | ||
| I mean, how are countries, how do you get the title deeds of a country? | ||
| There are really only three ways. | ||
| One way is you're the original inhabitants, right? | ||
| Like the Native Americans are the original inhabitants. | ||
| They go, it's ours. | ||
| That's one way. | ||
| The second way is there's some sort of a negotiation, a treaty. | ||
| Someone gives it to you and you get it that way. | ||
| A third way is conquest. | ||
| That's how we got large parts of Mexico. | ||
| That's how the United States now reaches from one end of the ocean to the other. | ||
| We took a lot of it by force. | ||
| So that's the third way. | ||
| Most of the boundaries of most of the countries of the world are established by war and by nothing else. | ||
| Now, interestingly, with America, you could say that on one side, the Native Americans have the right. | ||
| They were here first. | ||
| So they have the title deeds. | ||
| And then you can say on the other side, well, we conquered them. | ||
| We fought a war. | ||
| They lost. | ||
| That's that. | ||
| So it's ours. | ||
| But with Israel, all the arguments benefit Israel. | ||
| They were the original inhabitants. | ||
| They were there for 4,000 years, going back to the time of Abraham. | ||
| Number two, they were awarded Israel by the United Nations in 1948. | ||
| And number three, they have fought multiple wars, at least three, 1948, 1967, 1973. | ||
| They beat the combined invading armies of Syria, Jordan, Egypt. | ||
| So the Arab world united against them. | ||
| They kicked their butts. | ||
| And so whether you're looking at this, it was fascinating. | ||
| I look at the clock, like five minutes. | ||
| So we're running over, Nick. | ||
| I got to be fair. | ||
| Nick, you got five minutes because I just let him run for five minutes. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| It was great. | ||
| I was listening. | ||
| Just, sorry, I got to go ahead. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You know, once again, it just gets back to the analytical framework for the conflict is that these are rational actors. | ||
| And maybe we'll get into Israel's objectives. | ||
| Iran wants a nuclear arsenal to deter an attack from the United States and Israel. | ||
| I think that's a credible fear. | ||
| The United States' interest is they do not want nuclear proliferation. | ||
| So we don't want Iran to acquire a nuclear weapon. | ||
| We don't necessarily have an interest in regime change. | ||
| Israel's strategic objective is to overthrow the government of Iran. | ||
| And why? | ||
| It goes back to the Laikoud Party and their takeover of the government in the late 1970s. | ||
| They witnessed what happened in the Camp David Accords, which is that Egypt got the Sinai back in exchange for peace. | ||
| They witnessed some of the Israeli ministers try to negotiate with the Palestinians. | ||
| They called it land for peace. | ||
| We'll give you some of the West Bank in exchange for peace. | ||
| We'll give Syria the Golan in exchange for peace was the idea. | ||
| They thought that's what was going to happen. | ||
| And these Lykudniks, the people that have been running Israel basically for 50 years, nearly uninterrupted, they said, we can't keep giving up land in exchange for peace. | ||
| They said, we need to go on the offensive. | ||
| This is in Oded Yanon's plan for the 1980s. | ||
| He was an advisor to Ariel Sharon. | ||
| This is in the Clean Break memo in 1996. | ||
| And in both of these doctrines, and this is consistent throughout, you know, 20, 30 year period, they said we need to go on the offensive and we need to basically destroy all the big states that are supporting Palestine, all the big states that might pose a threat to Israel. | ||
| And that is why they pushed for regime change against Saddam. | ||
| That's why they pushed for destabilization of Syria. | ||
| And ultimately, they saw Iran as sponsoring Hezbollah and the Shiite groups in southern Lebanon, and then eventually Hamas. | ||
| And so Israel has an interest in what they call creating statelets. | ||
| They don't want big, powerful regimes like Nasser's Egypt, like the Assad dynasty in Syria, like Gaddafi and Libya. | ||
| They want small, manageable fiefdoms where they're going to dismember Libya into like three countries, dismember Syria into Druze, Alawite, and Sunni, dismember Iraq into Shiite, Kurdish, and Sunni. | ||
| They want to do the same thing to Iran. | ||
| And that is because, and I agree with you, Israel wants to be safe, but you characterize Israel as small and fledgling and just trying to hold on to their land. | ||
| They're the only nuclear power, the most sophisticated, most powerful military and intelligence operation in the Middle East, as evidenced by this very one-sided conflict. | ||
| And what they want to be safe is regional hegemony. | ||
| In order to be safe from all threats, they want to make it so that there are no threats. | ||
| That's why the road to Israeli safety and their right to exist runs through regime change, destabilization, and civil war. | ||
| And so I'm saying, look, that's probably in their best interest, but it's not in ours. | ||
| And so that's why I agree with Trump. | ||
| We should pursue diplomacy with Iran and try to get them to give up their nuclear program with limitations and restrictions without regime change, which is unpredictable and has negative effects for us. | ||
| Israel wants the regime change, and they want us to pick up the pieces and clean up after them, just as we did in all these other countries. | ||
| And we deal with the terrorism and the hatred, and we deal with the high gas prices and all the rest of it. | ||
| So that's the America first position. | ||
| Restrain Israel from pursuing regime change, restrict Iran's nuclear program. | ||
| You can use maximum pressure and Reagan doctrine to do it. | ||
| I'm fine with that. | ||
| But I think diplomacy is preferable, and that's in our interest to try it. | ||
| That's my position. | ||
| Okay, so I want to go back to Dinesh here, and we're approaching 15 minutes of this. | ||
| This is amazing. | ||
| You guys, stay as long as you want. | ||
| I also want to get to questions from X. And I'll just say, because I'm not trying to throw this either way, I have complex views. | ||
| I know it's all nuanced. | ||
| I think both of you are making great points, and I'm public about that. | ||
| I want to blow up Israel. | ||
| And I also, you know, and I don't like the mullahs, but I don't want to have war with Iran. | ||
| I know most people don't even like it. | ||
| My issue is we saw Netanyahu strike them first and drag us in. | ||
| And look, I know that their proxies, Iran's been striking them in Lebanon and the West Bank and Gaza and with the Houthis. | ||
| And I mean, nobody can save Starter first. | ||
| And Iran, you know, does make all these statements, you know, rhetorical. | ||
| We're going to drive you in the ocean and blow you up and all the rest of it. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| So my larger. | ||
| Sure, sure. | ||
| Dinesh, I'm going to go to you. | ||
| I just have been pretty good here. | ||
| I just want to, and I got some questions coming up here very soon for both of you, and we're going to go to questions. | ||
| But honing in, because both of you guys are very smart, and I'd like to hear, not even, I mean, it's a debate, but also a discussion. | ||
| What do you think is about to happen? | ||
| I know, Dinesh, you have amazing contacts. | ||
| Trump today says twice at Alligator Alcatraz that, oh, we got a deal Monday. | ||
| You're going to love it. | ||
| And Netanyahu's coming and all this. | ||
| And usually Trump doesn't just bluff. | ||
| That sounds really good. | ||
| Then you have the Moodlists putting out a very rare fatua against Trump and Netanyahu on Sunday. | ||
| So just in general, looking at that, but I will just say, Israel initiating the latest round and us coming into it a week into it, and then all of that. | ||
| And then I could predict the media was going to say it didn't take out the sites. | ||
| Clearly the sites were highly damaged or obliterated. | ||
| But then did they hide fissile material? | ||
| Then the Moolahs are, we're going to go all the way to Enrichment. | ||
| And we did hide it. | ||
| And it's like to get out of this, the Moolah seem to do whatever it is keeps it going. | ||
| It's very bizarre. | ||
| So it's easy for me on like straight Western politics to know who the sides are, what the interests are. | ||
| When you get into these moolahs and things, it is, it is, it is, gives me a headache, basically. | ||
| So, you know, I mean, as a moderator, I'm supposed to just have easy answers here. | ||
| A lot of bizarre behavior. | ||
| Why would the Moolahs put a photo out? | ||
| Well, because maybe they're about to fall. | ||
| We're seeing some evidence. | ||
| Their foreign minister on TV contradicting them, saying the nuclear sites were basically destroyed. | ||
| So the intel I'm getting is they could fall. | ||
| What happens if the Mulas are cornered then? | ||
| And see, this just is a complex issue. | ||
| So you guys can finish up with your round of debates about the history and who's who or whatever. | ||
| My point is these are two sides absolutely diametrically opposed to each other. | ||
| And like Trump said, both sides don't know what the fuck they're doing. | ||
| They've been fighting so long. | ||
| I agree with that. | ||
| How could generally gut level, where do both of you see this going? | ||
| We'll go to Nesh first and finish up with Nick's response if you want. | ||
| But then where do you see this going next? | ||
| Can this be de-escalated? | ||
| What are the paths out of this Dinesh's? | ||
| Yeah, the reason I keep anchoring our discussion, not just in history, but kind of in the facts on the ground, is because it's hard to have a debate when the facts are really fuzzy, right? | ||
| So you mentioned, Alex, that Ned and Yahoo struck first. | ||
| But if it is true, if it is true that Iran was a driving force behind October 7th, then Israel did not strike first. | ||
| Israel struck second. | ||
| Second of all, let's remember a lot of times, I mean, if we go back in history, not very far, you know, Hitler attacks Poland and Great Britain, Great Britain declares war on Germany. | ||
| Japan attacks the United States at Pearl Harbor. | ||
| Did we just go to war with Japan? | ||
| No, we didn't. | ||
| We sent a patent, starts taking U.S. troops into Europe. | ||
| We went after the Nazis, even though the Nazis did not attack us directly. | ||
| It was the Japanese who did. | ||
| All right, let me turn to Nick. | ||
| Nick says that it's the goal of Israel to somehow topple all the big, strong powers in the Middle East. | ||
| And let's test if that's true. | ||
| Which are the big, strong powers in the Middle East? | ||
| And the answer is, certainly in the Muslim world, there are three. | ||
| There is Saudi Arabia, there is Egypt, and there is Iran. | ||
| These are the three big boys of the Middle East. | ||
| And they are jostling, by the way, for power, the one against the other. | ||
| Israel has excellent relations with two out of the three. | ||
| Now, the only reason Israel doesn't have excellent relations with Iran is Iran continues to not only plot and scheme, but openly declare and fund military forces, Hezbollah, also Hamas, that are aimed ultimately at eradicating Israel from the map. | ||
| That's the meaning of from the river to the sea. | ||
| So Israel is willing to get along with powerful forces in the region. | ||
| It's made friends with some of them. | ||
| It gave back land to Egypt. | ||
| It's on good terms with Saudi Arabia. | ||
| I think it would be on good terms with Iran if Iran wasn't driving the aggression from its side. | ||
| So I completely reject Nick's idea that somehow Iran is fighting a defensive war. | ||
| Nobody wants to invade Iran, least of all Israel. | ||
| Israel would like to have nothing to do with Iran. | ||
| They've got a successful society on their own. | ||
| Now, you're asking about Trump and kind of where all of this is going. | ||
| And I think I want to highlight the simple point that, look, Trump is actually a kind of master of this kind of, well, I'm going to call it mafia diplomacy. | ||
| By that, I mean that he acts like Don Corleone. | ||
| He twists people's arms. | ||
| He basically tries to pull everybody into line. | ||
| And sort of this idea, number one, when Trump basically even started talking about the idea of striking the Iranian facilities, there was a massive scream on the part of the, let's call it the Nick Fuentes camp, but there were many others in it. | ||
| This is disastrous. | ||
| We're going to be in a war. | ||
| We're going to have tremendous casualties. | ||
| The Iranians are going to strike back at us. | ||
| Just wait for it. | ||
| None of this actually happened. | ||
| So if I'm going to show a little modesty about Iraq, it would be good for Nick to admit that he and so many others were completely wrong about what the effect of Trump strikes were going to be. | ||
| Number two, Israel is a country of 10 million people or 12 million people. | ||
| The United States is 350 million plus. | ||
| Are you seriously telling me that Israel is controlling America? | ||
| Let's stop there. | ||
| You just got four minutes. | ||
| Nick. | ||
| We're going to go to break and come back. | ||
| I've got questions, and then listeners have questions from X. Nick, responding to that. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| So to address the first point, Saudi Arabia is not a major power in the Middle East. | ||
| We give them a lot of weapons and things like that, but Saudi Arabia has a small population, mostly foreign workers. | ||
| It's held together by this weird dynasty from 100 years ago because they sell oil. | ||
| They couldn't even defeat the Houthis in Yemen. | ||
| I mean, they were at war with the Houthis for 10 years with American backing. | ||
| They said they were fighting al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. | ||
| They couldn't beat back these guys. | ||
| They're pirates, effectively. | ||
| So Saudi Arabia is not a major power. | ||
| And what's more is they're effectively in a relationship with Israel already. | ||
| They, like the Emirates, like Bahrain, are going to enter into the Abraham Accords. | ||
| They're submitted to Israel. | ||
| And that's the fate. | ||
| If you are against the West, if you're against Israel and the United States, you get overthrown, you get regime changed, you get invaded, civil war, or you're like Egypt and Jordan, where you get bribed and become a Western puppet to Israel. | ||
| And Saudi Arabia wants to follow suit. | ||
| So I would just say that. | ||
| And that's obviously the case also because Netanyahu and other ministers in the Israeli government have said for 30 years they want regime change in Iran. | ||
| That's just not even disputed. | ||
| In the mid-1990s, they're calling for regime change. | ||
| In 2006, Netanyahu is calling for regime change. | ||
| They're publishing videos all the time in Farsi and English saying the Iranian people need to rise up. | ||
| It's just not even a question that they do want that. | ||
| And they want that because Iran is a rival. | ||
| Iran has one of the largest populations. | ||
| It's often said about the Middle East. | ||
| You've got three countries, Turkey, Egypt, Iran. | ||
| The rest are tribes of flags. | ||
| Iran has a big middle class, big economy, oil wealth. | ||
| They have a lot of intelligent people. | ||
| They're a threat to Israel's security and hegemony in the region. | ||
| And that's why Israel wants to depose that country, along with all the other ones with ambitions, whether they be Islamist or pan-Arabist. | ||
| With regard to Israel, and we can maybe get into this topic because I think we sort of settled a lot of this other stuff. | ||
| We're looping a bit. | ||
| But to get into the question of Israel driving U.S. foreign policy, it's pretty clear. | ||
| Trump initiated diplomacy with Iran in April. | ||
| He had Netanyahu at the White House for talks about the tariffs, and he announced that he was going to engage Iran in negotiations over the nuclear program. | ||
| That same day, Netanyahu went on TV and said, the only deal we will accept is if we get to blow up Iran's nuclear program and if they follow the Libya model. | ||
| The Libya model is where Libya gave up their nukes with inspections, and then we regime changed them eight years later. | ||
| And that was obviously a poison pill to blow up the talks. | ||
| They said repeatedly, just last week, the defense minister came out and said, we are pursuing decapitation of the supreme leader. | ||
| And when asked, did you get permission from the United States? | ||
| He said, we don't need permission on such matters. | ||
| And I believe, of course, you absolutely do. | ||
| I wish it was as you're describing, where we are in control of Israel and they're our client. | ||
| This has never been the case. | ||
| Israel was the driving force behind the road to the war in Iraq. | ||
| They're the driving force behind the road to the war in Iran. | ||
| And the question of, and this is the last thing, just briefly, was I wrong about the strikes in Iran? | ||
| We're not in a war in Iran. | ||
| Of course we're in a war in Iran. | ||
| Trump killed Suleimani in 2020. | ||
| He comes back into office and picks up where he left off. | ||
| Israel attacks Iran, and then we bomb Fordo. | ||
| And this is going to be the case in the future. | ||
| Iran says they're not giving up enrichment. | ||
| The United States says you have to have 0% enrichment. | ||
| It's setting the stage for more strikes. | ||
| We've been in a state of hostilities. | ||
| Nick Fointez, stay right there. | ||
| We're going to take a break here. | ||
| I'm going to ask both of you during the break of the producer is how long you want to stay. | ||
| I'll go another 50 minutes. | ||
| I'll go another hour and a half, two hours. | ||
| Oh, five hours. | ||
| This is riveting. | ||
| And I think this is a really very professional intellectual debate. | ||
| This is not people trying to make points for the other person. | ||
| They're both very knowledgeable. | ||
| Denysius is a very former head of a federal agency, best-selling other filmmakers, super scholar. | ||
| Nick for 26 is, you disagree with his politics, agree with him. | ||
| The guy's a phenomenon. | ||
| I know any 26-year-old knows half of what he knows. | ||
| It's very refreshing to hear this. | ||
| I'm not saying he's going over the audience head. | ||
| Our audience is way more advanced than most people. | ||
| I imagine a lot of people, millions, watching on X right now. | ||
| This is a big viral thing. | ||
| I'm having like a lot of what they're saying, like remember it? | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| So I'm having trouble following some of this with Dinesh, some of the things he's saying. | ||
| And Nick, that I think about it and go, oh, yeah, that's true. | ||
| So it was, you know, this is, this is not baby time here. | ||
| This is not, you know, real simple, mindless slogans. | ||
| This is a real debate here. | ||
| And this is what debates I think really should be, like the Lincoln Douglas debates. | ||
| So we'll find out how long they want to stay. | ||
| This is all another issue because I told the crew on the expost asking, what are your questions when the debate launched? | ||
| We can't find out of thousands of questions, maybe 10 that are pro-Israel. | ||
| And I'm not, again, I don't want to just come on here and read anti-Israel stuff. | ||
| I want to get both sides for a debate. | ||
| We literally, which the poll numbers show the whole world's turning against Israel. | ||
| And they got nuclear weapons. | ||
| Like Michael Savage is pro-Israel. | ||
| He came on last Friday, but he said, no, Israel's going the wrong way. | ||
| The whole world's turning against them. | ||
| This is going to get Israel destroyed. | ||
| They got nukes. | ||
| I mean, whether you love Israel or hate them, they get cornered. | ||
| Samson option. | ||
| So, I mean, I'm sitting here telling the crew, get me a pro-Israel comment on X. And I mean, literally, they found like one. | ||
| I mean, I've got an issue here. | ||
| Yeah, they're all, you know, it's out of control. | ||
| The dish is a great guy. | ||
| I'll put him in jail. | ||
| He was put in jail by Obama for supporting Trump. | ||
| So, and by the way, I'm very thankful for Trump overall on domestic policy, economy, everything. | ||
| I think he did what he thought was best with the Iran strikes. | ||
| I hope it works out. | ||
| And I, you know, we need to be adults about this. | ||
| We don't be like the left that calls for arresting anyone we disagree with. | ||
| And I'm just being honest here. | ||
| I think it's shocking. | ||
| Everybody's on X saying arrest in that decision. | ||
| Don't worry. | ||
| It's already happened to him. | ||
| So you get two minutes before we go to break. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| I was saying maybe what we can do is do a brief sort of summary of our positions for a couple of minutes. | ||
| And then, you know, let's set a time and take questions and we can each get a chance to answer them. | ||
| And, you know, let's see, it's a little after eight Central Time. | ||
| Why don't we go till nine if Nick's agreeable? | ||
| I think we have sort of agreed we'll do two hours total. | ||
| And so I'm good with that. | ||
| No, no, it sounds good. | ||
| You know what I can do? | ||
| Because I got no serious questions on X. I mean, it's just, I'll read some of these. | ||
| I mean, they're good questions, but it's all like foaming at the mouth. | ||
| You know, just whatever. | ||
| The point is, I'll read them. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I'm just being honest. | ||
| Like, I wanted to get both sides. | ||
| I'm not getting it. | ||
| Well, we'll fire the phones up. | ||
| But I want at least an hour. | ||
| So let's go to 10 after 9. | ||
| I'll get that both from you because I want to take a bunch of comments. | ||
| Here's the toll-free number. | ||
| Fire up the phone system. | ||
| Never fear. | ||
| The phones are here. | ||
| We'll have people calling and actually have some real questions. | ||
| I'm not like, oh, look at Jones trying to get pro-Israel questions. | ||
| No, I'm not just going to literally read 50 questions in a row anti-Israel. | ||
| I want to get both sides for a real debate. | ||
| So the toll-free number, firing the system up right now, 877-789-2539. | ||
| 877-789-2539. | ||
| 877-789-ALEX. | ||
| But it shows you just two years ago, half the stuff would be pro-Israel. | ||
| That's a whole nother issue of what the poll numbers show, the world turning against Israel, which you can even hate Israel. | ||
| They got nuclear weapons. | ||
| They're not going away unless it's in Armageddon. | ||
| 877-789-2539. | ||
| Dinesh D'Souza is a best-selling author and one of the top documentary filmmakers in all time. | ||
| Probably the number one documentary for actual grosses. | ||
| Dinesh D. D'Souza, Dinesh's dot com. | ||
| And of course, you can find Nick Fuentez on Rumble where he dominates at NickJ Fuentez on X, NicholasJFuentez.com. | ||
| We're going to take a short little four-minute break, and we're going to let both men have six minutes. | ||
| That way they get plenty of time to make a summation. | ||
| And then we will take some phone calls and read some blow Israel off the map comments on air. | ||
| We'll be right back. | ||
| Stay with us. | ||
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*Dramatic music* | |
| All right. | ||
| Well, this has been a great debate. | ||
| We're one hour, 17 minutes into it, but I went to the guest about seven minutes in, so we're about an hour and 10 minutes into it. | ||
| It's been very intellectual, very informative. | ||
| I imagined, and I'm undisappointed, that we would mainly focus on the current issues. | ||
| And so I want to give both men a chance. | ||
| I forget who went last. | ||
| Again, I've got the times basically down. | ||
| Maybe one person got a minute more, somebody else, but I'm being as fair as I can here. | ||
| Who went last? | ||
| Was it Zanash or was it Nick? | ||
| Alex, I went first in the beginning. | ||
| So why doesn't Nick go first for six, and I'll go for six, and then we'll go to questions. | ||
| Perfect. | ||
| So, and then I have one question after that, but Nick, go ahead. | ||
| Yep, sounds good to me. | ||
| So to sum up sort of what we've been talking about so far, the question is, what is America first? | ||
| What's putting America first? | ||
| I'm not pro-Iran. | ||
| I'm not an isolationist, or I'm not Even necessarily opposed to the United States engaging other countries abroad. | ||
| What I am opposed to is a policy that isn't in our interest. | ||
| And I think that regime change is something that historically in the Middle East never goes our way. | ||
| It leads to chaos, civil war, ethnic cleansing, failed states, worse regimes than we got before. | ||
| I think the U.S. interest in Iran is to prevent them from acquiring a nuclear bomb. | ||
| I don't think they're pursuing one right now. | ||
| I think they have a latent threat to deter regime change from Israel. | ||
| And I think that on the flip side of that, Israel has been pushing for regime change in Iran like they have in virtually every other country for 30 years. | ||
| That's why the America First position, how do we balance these two competing states, which are they both have their religious zealotry. | ||
| They both have their share of terrorism. | ||
| Neither of them are the United States. | ||
| How do we balance those competing forces in the Middle East? | ||
| I think we restrain Israel from pursuing regime change in Iran. | ||
| I think we make a deal with Iran to restrict their nuclear activity. | ||
| And that comes from a deep respect and humility about the nature of regime change, the size of Iran, the undertaking that regime change would be, and with respect to what our own foreign policy is. | ||
| You know, I think that we had a nuclear deal with Iran and it was going well. | ||
| They were abiding by it. | ||
| We had monitoring. | ||
| We had 24-7 cameras. | ||
| We knew what they were doing. | ||
| We have engaged Iran in good faith before. | ||
| They've demonstrated by telegraphing strikes and through calibrating them that they're rational, that they can be patient strategically. | ||
| And I think that we should attempt to do that again. | ||
| I think that Trump and Biden both tried to do that over the past 12 years. | ||
| They've been repeatedly sabotaged by Israel. | ||
| Their dream is to drag us into a confrontation where we fight their regime change war for them. | ||
| And I think that's something that serves only the interest of Israeli hegemony and not the interest of American strategic withdrawal and removal from the Middle East so that we could focus on our real rival, which is China. | ||
| So that's kind of my big picture view. | ||
| And it's based on fundamental assumptions about the nature of Iran's regime and what Iran wants. | ||
| And the same is true about Israel, what the nature of the Israeli regime is and what they want. | ||
| And so that's a summary of what I think the America first position is in this conflict. | ||
| All right. | ||
| So you only went for like less than three minutes. | ||
| Danesha Susa. | ||
| Yeah, I'll try to keep it brief as well. | ||
| I've been trying to sort of figure out Nick Fuentes as this debate has been going on. | ||
| And I've come to a kind of startling conclusion. | ||
| I mean this only tentatively because I don't know enough about Nick, but from what I'm hearing, basically Nick Fuentes is a Democrat. | ||
| And what that means is that he can't be America first because he is echoing all the tired, discredited, have faith in the goodwill of our enemies, have faith in treaties. | ||
| This is what Democrats said throughout Reagan, throughout the Cold War. | ||
| Let's trust the Russians. | ||
| They can be, they're trustworthy. | ||
| They want peace too, don't they? | ||
| And now, you know, we have Nick and he's like, you know, we had a deal. | ||
| Well, it was Obama's deal, remember? | ||
| You think Obama was a good guy? | ||
| You think Obama was America first? | ||
| What do you think Obama was up to? | ||
| America last. | ||
| Obama's idea was let's strengthen our enemies and undermine our friends. | ||
| Why do you think he got rid of Mubarak in Egypt? | ||
| Because he was an ally of the United States. | ||
| And then we got the Muslim Brotherhood in power in Egypt. | ||
| That was not, Obama is not the same as Jimmy Carter. | ||
| Jimmy Carter was an idiot. | ||
| He was a nincum poop. | ||
| We'll give him the presidential nincum poopery award. | ||
| Obama's malevolent. | ||
| Obama represents ultimately, if you follow what Obama says, it's basically what our enemies want and not what we want. | ||
| And so notice, Nick, how close your position is to Obama. | ||
| The Iranians are reasonable. | ||
| The Iranians don't have any imperialistic ambitions. | ||
| They don't have any real ill will toward Israel. | ||
| Their militarization is purely defensive. | ||
| We can make a peaceful deal with them. | ||
| The only thing you didn't say is we should give them a whole bunch of money. | ||
| I guess that's your one difference with Obama is you wouldn't give them the pallets of cash that Obama turned over. | ||
| But otherwise, you're saying pretty much the same thing. | ||
| Now, here's what I'm saying, which is the opposite. | ||
| In the world, America has allies and we have enemies. | ||
| Our enemies, our rivals, their adversaries, they wish us ill. | ||
| They would do regime change over here if they could. | ||
| And who are some of those people? | ||
| Well, China, to some degree, Russia, certainly Iran. | ||
| And so any, I mean, if you read Klauswitz, Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, the whole idea is you want to weaken your enemies and strengthen your friends. | ||
| That's what America first means. | ||
| It means promoting American interests in the world. | ||
| And you seem to be promoting the opposite. | ||
| You seem to be saying, well, enemies aren't that bad and our friends aren't our real friends. | ||
| Why don't we put some pressure on our friends and why don't we trust our enemies more? | ||
| I mean, this is basically straight out the logic of the Democratic Party. | ||
| It's been disproven time and time again. | ||
| And I think you're wrongly drawing lessons from the Iraq war that are basically turning you into a 26-year-old Obama. | ||
| Okay, so I said six minute closing comments, but Nick went less than three. | ||
| You just went less than three. | ||
| So let's keep going here. | ||
| Nick, I'm sure you want to respond to that. | ||
| Yeah, I didn't really expect where you were going with that, but in retrospect, I should have. | ||
| When you said this is tentative and I, you know, I've just met you. | ||
| I thought maybe it was going to be positive, but I should have known it was going to be, he's a Democrat. | ||
| It's just a very strange thing that the moral universe you live in seems to be based on partisanship. | ||
| It's Republicans and Democrats, like the KKK, the Nazis, Iran, like every ideology that's against like America and Israel's interests can be, can be kind of molded into this like Democrat Party narrative. | ||
| The thing is about Democrats and Republicans, I don't think there's a big difference. | ||
| We have the same national security apparatus. | ||
| Obama had the same defense secretary as Bush. | ||
| And we maintain very much a similar foreign policy under Obama that we did under Bush. | ||
| And then again, under Trump, Biden, and then Trump again, I think we have a deep state. | ||
| The Pentagon, CENTCOM, National Security Council, the Directorate of National Intelligence, the IC. | ||
| I mean, all these people are permanent bureaucrats. | ||
| I don't think there's a lot of daylight between Republicans and Democrats. | ||
| I think that's a meaningless distinction. | ||
| I wouldn't say, I don't know what that means to be a Democrat. | ||
| I'm a Catholic. | ||
| I'm a reactionary. | ||
| I'm in favor of immigration moratorium. | ||
| I voted for Trump in 16. | ||
| Like, I don't know where you get off saying I'm a Democrat, other than that, I think we should pursue diplomacy. | ||
| And by the way, it's not based on good faith towards our enemies, like Iran or Russia, or China for that matter. | ||
| It's based and anchored again in foreign policy realism. | ||
| I'm a realist. | ||
| I'm not a liberal internationalist or a liberal globalist where I believe there's a world of friendly democracies and autocratic foes. | ||
| I would say that Israel is similarly a foe. | ||
| Israel spies on Americans. | ||
| Israel has planned and perpetrated false flag attacks against Americans in the past. | ||
| When 9-11 happened, Bibi Netanyahu said it's a good thing because now we can sympathize with what they go through. | ||
| And they looked at that as a gift because they thought that we would support them against the Palestinians and then we would support them against their other rivals in the region. | ||
| You know, so this idea that we have friends and foes and, you know, the Israel's part of the Avengers and the Iran is part of the bad guys. | ||
| I think this is just juvenile and childish. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And it's like I'm debating Fox News, this kind of stuff about the debate format, which is fine. | |
| Dinesh, counter that and then back to Nick response back. | ||
| But I have a few questions for you that I want to go to callers and I want to go to comments on X. But Dinesh, anything back? | ||
| Yeah, the polarization of the world is not the result of some sort of ideological fantasy. | ||
| It's a simple reality. | ||
| You can see it in the animal kingdom. | ||
| If there are two strong animals that are in a herd, they will fight each other for leadership. | ||
| If there are two powerful countries in the world, they will become rivals. | ||
| And the small countries around them will basically take sides. | ||
| And you will begin to see this kind of polarization. | ||
| It's not survival of the fittest. | ||
| It's not survival. | ||
| It's a description of a power struggle that drives international relations. | ||
| And you'd be very naive if you don't see that force is at the bottom of international politics. | ||
| Now, domestically, American politics is divided generally into two camps. | ||
| Now, I realize that Nick wants to say, oh, they're just the same. | ||
| But just think of the stupidity of saying that, because if they're just the same, it would make no difference if Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan won the 1980 election. | ||
| I honestly believe that if Reagan wasn't in power for two terms, the Soviet Union might not have collapsed. | ||
| In a sense, Nick is saying he voted for Trump in 1916, but it didn't really matter. | ||
| It wouldn't have mattered if Hillary was president because Hillary would have been pretty much the same as Trump. | ||
| And similarly, Nick is saying now that he wouldn't mind really if Kamala Harris won the 2024 election, because after all, the country would be pretty much the same because the two parties are a uniparty. | ||
| And as to quote him, these are meaningless distinctions. | ||
| Well, I think the whole idea of America First, of MAGA, of Trump is based on the idea that, look, yes, there are common forces. | ||
| The intelligence agencies have been a malign influence in both parties. | ||
| And there are, of course, there is a kind of drinking at the swamp establishment and Republicans and Democrats are part of that. | ||
| But nevertheless, there are distinctions that really matter. | ||
| This country already, in just a few months, is very different than it would be if Kamala Harris, the border would not be secure. | ||
| We wouldn't be looking at making these tax cuts permanent. | ||
| We wouldn't be looking at 10,000 new border agents. | ||
| And on and on it goes. | ||
| We would be dealing with the trans phenomenon, would be shoved down our throats. | ||
| Probably, Nick, you and Alex would still be thrown off social media. | ||
| So the Trump phenomenon matters. | ||
| Trump has made a difference. | ||
| I'm not saying that Trump is not open to criticism. | ||
| I'm not saying that MAGA means some kind of a, we all have to follow Trump like the Pied Piper. | ||
| But what I am saying is that Trump has proven far more often to be right than wrong. | ||
| And if I'm choosing to be the former president... | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Brief comeback from Nick. | ||
| I think I'm going to go with Trump. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| I understand. | ||
| Nick, quick comeback. | ||
| And then I got a couple of questions for you guys. | ||
| I don't want to go to questions from the audience. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, as far as all of this is concerned, Trump and Biden and Kamal and all of that, I would say yes. | ||
| I don't think it's even controversial at this point to say that there really is no distinction, especially when it concerns matter of foreign policy. | ||
| I mean, Biden gave Israel $20 billion last year. | ||
| When Israel was in peril, when Israel was fighting this war in Gaza and against the Houthis in Hezbollah, it was Biden last year in April that gave Israel $20 billion, which is a huge military aid package. | ||
| And Biden showed up when Iran retaliated against Israel in April of last year, and then again in October of last year, and even earlier when Israel initiated these provocations earlier in July and in April of 24. | ||
| It was Biden that deployed the carriers to protect Israel and shoot down all the incoming missiles from Iran and from Hezbollah and from the Houthis and actually offensively bombed them, bombed the Houthis, bombed the Shiite militias in Iraq and Syria. | ||
| And for all people like to say, you know, the Democrats are abandoning our friends and empowering our enemies. | ||
| No, actually the opposite is true. | ||
| You know, Biden gave this huge aid package to Ukraine, our big ally. | ||
| They gave a huge aid package to Israel, our big ally. | ||
| So I think that whether we had Kamala or Trump, we would be engaging in strikes against Iran right now. | ||
| I don't think anyone even doubts that slightly. | ||
| And so the question, again, what is America? | ||
| I don't care about being Republican and Democrat. | ||
| It means nothing to me. | ||
| I'm independent. | ||
| I'm America first. | ||
| It's a question of what's in our interest. | ||
| And you can say, you can appeal to this tribalism and say, you sound like Jimmy Carter. | ||
| Okay, that's 50 years ago. | ||
| What's in America's interest is not another regime change war. | ||
| No matter our level of involvement, it's too unpredictable. | ||
| It's too much chaos. | ||
| There's no guarantee we'll get something better or something that isn't horribly worse. | ||
| This is what Israel wants. | ||
| This is not what we want. | ||
| We want nuclear nonproliferation. | ||
| They want regime change. | ||
| We should have nonproliferation. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Now, again, it's great. | ||
| It's amazing. | ||
| I want to go to comments, questions. | ||
| This is huge. | ||
| People are millions are tuning in right now, just on X alone, millions everywhere else. | ||
| This is a real, raw debate, folks. | ||
| When you see corporate media, the questions are already prepared. | ||
| It's been planned for months or weeks. | ||
| This is real unfiltered. | ||
| None of us talk before the show other than text messages. | ||
| Hey, are you ready to come on the show? | ||
| That's it. | ||
| So this was raw. | ||
| This is what it's all about. | ||
| This is real media. | ||
| We're so blessed to be here. | ||
| So thankful the crew. | ||
| So blessed for all the listeners and viewers tuning in and the clips of this going viral everywhere. | ||
| This is what it's all about. | ||
| Let Me ask you both this question. | ||
| I know you're both pundits and both analysts, and you have your views, and I think you both come from a position of realism and integrity that you believe what you're saying. | ||
| We all see the rose-colored darklies, but we believe what we're saying. | ||
| Sometimes we're a little bit wrong, and me mostly right, maybe. | ||
| But I want you to both do, and you know, basically as a favor to me, do what I do. | ||
| And I know you both do this because Nick said I think Trump very soon will hit Iran when he was running for office the last time, you know, eight, nine months ago, right before he got elected. | ||
| And he thought this would be a big crisis. | ||
| And I know, you know, Dinesh has made a lot of predictions come true. | ||
| I want to ask you both, first Dinesh, then Nick, gut level, I think Trump thought he did the right thing, believed he was shutting this down, putting back the nuclear program. | ||
| The left and others won't do that. | ||
| They want to keep it going, which then adds the war. | ||
| The Moodles are saying, don't worry, we're going to end red. | ||
| She's not going to stop us. | ||
| I see this as the beginning of quagmire. | ||
| I have a really bad feeling about where it's going. | ||
| So here's the simple question, which is a super complex question. | ||
| But most simple questions are. | ||
| They look simple, but they're not. | ||
| How do you gut level see this ending, Dinesh, to say regime change, wider war, Iran rolling over? | ||
| Gut level, how do you see this ending and how would you like to see it end? | ||
| And what do you think we as the American people can do to have this end in a peaceful way? | ||
| All right. | ||
| I think that the Trump strike on the three nuclear facilities was a brilliant move because it was basically what it was is essentially an overnight job. | ||
| We fly over there. | ||
| We clobber their nuclear facilities. | ||
| We don't suffer a single casualty. | ||
| They don't even know we're there. | ||
| They have no control over their own skies. | ||
| We had all these fighter planes, by the way, accompanying those B-2 bombers because B-2 bombers can't defend themselves. | ||
| But not a single fighter plane was really needed. | ||
| They ended up just flying sort of decoratively around the B-2 bombers for no good reason. | ||
| And then they all came back safely. | ||
| And what is the result? | ||
| A crippling of Iran's nuclear facilities. | ||
| So look, whether they were at 80%, whether they were getting there, whether they were almost there, whether they were weeks away, whether they were months away, who cares? | ||
| Their program has now suffered a devastating setback. | ||
| And even though initially the media tried to deny it, they've now pretty much come out and admitted it. | ||
| Machiavelli says something very profound. | ||
| People can get revenge for small injuries, but they cannot get revenge for large injuries. | ||
| And what that means is that by and large, when you go poke somebody, they're going to come back and poke you back in the eye. | ||
| On the other hand, if you give such a devastating blow from which they can never recover, they are too preoccupied with their own survival to even worry about you anymore. | ||
| It's going to take a long time for Iran to get back on its feet. | ||
| Now, I think that the mullahs are going to try to survive, to hang in there, to slowly rebuild their power. | ||
| And so this is actually the downside of striking and then leaving, in a sense, sort of snatching partial victory out of the jaws of total victory. | ||
| Because I don't think we're very far away from the mullahs essentially running away. | ||
| There were even reports that some of the top Iranian officials were already starting to leave the country. | ||
| And just before the regime falls, we go, oh, well, we better stop. | ||
| You know, we don't really care about, quote, regime change. | ||
| And so Trump doesn't want to quagmire, Dinesh. | ||
| Who knows who's going to come in the vacuum? | ||
| We never know, Alex. | ||
| But the point is, when you have these dangerous situations in the world, you have to make a judgment call about whether what's going to come later is better or worse. | ||
| We have certain red lines. | ||
| One of them is we're not committing troops. | ||
| We're not going to commit troops unless Iran attacks U.S. borders or U.S. bases. | ||
| If they do that, then Trump's, you know, we're not in a war has to be set up. | ||
| So let me raise this now that we're deep into this. | ||
| I got a few questions, Nash. | ||
| If the Moodles are so insane and they just put a file out, which goes to that side of the question, on the other side, they did like in 2020 when they attacked the Iraq base and called Trump before and said, we're going to launch 18 missiles in the desert. | ||
| And they did as a face-saving event. | ||
| They did that again this time, called ahead when they were going to hit Qatar and did that. | ||
| So they're so crazy. | ||
| Why did they then telegraph all this and try to de-escalate? | ||
| Because, like I said, to come back to the quote from Machiavelli, when somebody is down on their back and you're standing on top of them with your foot on their chest, they're going to behave themselves wonderfully. | ||
| They're going to be very, see, Iran did not actually want to strike us because they realized, of course, the logic, if they strike us, we're going to strike them 10 times harder. | ||
| And so they were like good pussycat. | ||
| They basically were like, we'll behave ourselves. | ||
| We'll pretend to attack you and you pretend to go ouch, ouch, ouch. | ||
| I mean, this is actually the definition of total victory. | ||
| If you get into an MMA fight with some guy and at the end, he goes, listen, I want to convince my family that I'm not a wimp. | ||
| So I'll pretend to throw a punch at the very end and you pretend that you're bending over, even though you've clearly won the fight. | ||
| What does that tell you? | ||
| And so you say maybe the Fatawa is that as well? | ||
| How do we know some of their followers don't follow that order? | ||
| We don't know that. | ||
| And I think we should take preparations to make. | ||
| I don't have, I'm not a believer, as Nick is in Iranian goodwill. | ||
| I think if they put fatwas on you, there are going to be radical Muslims who are going to be willing to carry it out. | ||
| There are probably some of those in this country. | ||
| So we need to be taking preemptive or precautionary steps to make sure that we have the carrier out. | ||
| So, yeah, Nick, Nick, that's a lot to unpack. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Yeah, to answer the original question, where this is going, I think we're trapped. | ||
| I think we're trapped in a situation where now it's inevitable that there will be more tension. | ||
| There will be more tension. | ||
| There will be more conflict. | ||
| We're not getting out of this. | ||
| And it basically comes down to this. | ||
| We had a deal with Iran. | ||
| We overcame decades of distrust and decades of suspicion from Iran. | ||
| We made a deal that satisfied Russia, China, the E3 countries, the European, France, Germany, and the UK, and the United States. | ||
| We had a deal with monitoring, with verification, with 24-7 cameras. | ||
| Like Dinesh himself said, we know everything about their program because they disclosed it to us. | ||
| And the IAEA report said they had no weapons program since at least 2009, but probably not meaningfully since 2003. | ||
| So we had a deal. | ||
| Everybody was playing by the rules for years. | ||
| Trump pulled us out and now they don't trust us again. | ||
| Trump killed their general. | ||
| Now they hate us. | ||
| Then Trump engages them in diplomacy and he comes back to power. | ||
| And there's all this fanfare about they're going to make a deal. | ||
| We might be able to make terms with the United States. | ||
| And what does Trump do? | ||
| He says, we knew the whole time this was a ploy for a sneak attack by Israel to attack Iran. | ||
| Then we come in and bomb them. | ||
| And contrary to what Dinesh says, if there's some new report, I haven't seen it. | ||
| On the contrary, U.S. intelligence, Europeans, Iran, and Israel all have said we did not destroy Fordo. | ||
| We didn't even destroy their nuclear stockpile. | ||
| They said we weren't even trying to destroy their nuclear stockpile. | ||
| So now what they're saying is Iran still has a stockpile. | ||
| They have centrifuges we don't know about. | ||
| Iran says we're never giving up enrichment. | ||
| They're moving heavy equipment to Ford to rebuild it. | ||
| And what are the Israelis saying? | ||
| The Israelis are saying we're going to treat Iran like Lebanon, which means we're going to bomb them all the time with no restriction. | ||
| So, you know, this ceasefire, Israel never makes good on ceasefires. | ||
| They made one with Hamas. | ||
| They didn't implement the second phase. | ||
| They made one with Hezbollah. | ||
| They bombed them throughout. | ||
| None of them trust Israel. | ||
| None of them trust us. | ||
| And now, if we don't make a deal with Iran, there really is only one other option. | ||
| Iran doesn't trust us. | ||
| Russia didn't bail them out. | ||
| They're clearly vulnerable to Israeli intelligence. | ||
| The only deterrent that they can get to prevent further hostilities, you know, now they're talking about pulling out of the NPT and maybe getting a nuclear weapon. | ||
| So as far as I'm concerned, our fate is sealed. | ||
| And Israel drove, they orchestrated this every step of the way. | ||
| They engineered the confrontation in April last year. | ||
| They attacked Iranian generals in Syria. | ||
| They provoked the other confrontation in July. | ||
| They killed the leader of Hamas in Tehran. | ||
| Nick, I want to go to comments and questions now. | ||
| Both of you are making very interesting points. | ||
| Quick announcement. | ||
| Can I just do a really quick one? | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Just a really quick, just a quick response, because it seems to me that Nick has been moving in a kind of crab fashion, saying one thing, contradicting it, then saying the opposite, then saying the opposite again. | ||
| And here's what I mean. | ||
| At the beginning of this debate, Nick, you said emphatically, Iran has every good defensive reason to want to build a nuclear weapon. | ||
| You said Israel has nuclear weapons. | ||
| And so Iran, in order to counter Israel, needs to have a nuclear weapon on its own. | ||
| Then you said, but even though it's in their interest to build a nuclear weapon, albeit defensively, somehow a treaty is going to convince them not to do it. | ||
| It's kind of like saying it's in my interest to do something, but because you put a piece of paper in front of me, I'm going to go, gee, I'm not going to do that because I'm such a nice guy. | ||
| No, if it's in Iran's interest to build a nuclear weapon, they're going to try to do it openly or covertly, but they're going to try to do it one way or the other, according to your own logic. | ||
| Then you said, we tried to bomb their facility. | ||
| And you said, but you know what? | ||
| We probably didn't do a very good job. | ||
| And a lot of their nuclear facilities are in place. | ||
| And in fact, they might just turn around and build a nuclear weapon. | ||
| Now, you just told us that Iran has no desire to build a nuclear weapon. | ||
| You told us earlier that it's against Islam. | ||
| They've made some Islamic proclamation against it. | ||
| But now you're telling us, first of all, that there were obviously some fairly advanced facilities. | ||
| We tried to bomb them, but unsuccessfully. | ||
| So they're still in place. | ||
| And gee, if the Iranians get really mad, they can now just get together and put that nuclear bomb together. | ||
| Well, obviously, that means if it's in their interest to do it, and they're not that far from doing it now, we were certainly right to bomb them. | ||
| If anything, we should have had a second round of bombing to make sure we finished the job. | ||
| According to the money. | ||
| I want Nick to be able to comment. | ||
| I'll keep you guys all night. | ||
| I want to go to these comments. | ||
| You guys got to stay we can do that. | ||
| Callers and comments. | ||
| But Nick, back to my question, respond to Nash. | ||
| Quick summation. | ||
| How do you see this ending? | ||
| I know you don't have a crystal ball, but currently, where's this going? | ||
| Regime, like I said, I think we're trapped. | ||
| I think we're trapped. | ||
| It's going to end in regime change one way or the other. | ||
| As far as the apparent contradictions, I said at the start that they are engaging in nuclear hedging. | ||
| And what does that mean? | ||
| It means that they have the infrastructure, the expertise, and the technology to make a bomb if the security situation demands it. | ||
| The reason they probably could have developed a bomb by 2012. | ||
| The earliest estimate says that Iran could have had a bomb. | ||
| They had all the pieces in place by 2010. | ||
| And in the longest term timeline, 2012 is when they could have had a bomb. | ||
| Why did they not do that? | ||
| Because getting a bomb would invite aggression, because the United States has a non-proliferation doctrine. | ||
| But not having any latent ability would be weakness. | ||
| And that would also invite aggression. | ||
| Countries that don't have nukes can be destroyed by countries that have them. | ||
| So that's why it's hedging. | ||
| It's hedging development. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
| Let me finish. | ||
| Let me finish. | ||
| Let me finish because this is really important. | ||
| So the reason why the deal changes this dynamic is because if we can give Iran confidence and assurances, we are not going to invade you. | ||
| We don't have designs on overthrowing you. | ||
| Then Iran can have restrictions on their nuclear program and they can ensure us they're not going to weaponize. | ||
| I said there's other countries that do this too. | ||
| Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, they're hedging as well. | ||
| Why do they have nuclear programs? | ||
| North Korea and China. | ||
| Now, the reason they don't have nuclear bombs is because they can rely upon the United States to deter attacks from North Korea and China. | ||
| If that changed, it would be in their interest to develop a bomb. | ||
| So it has to do with their level of confidence. | ||
| It has to do with the current security situation. | ||
| So they have the ability to make one. | ||
| Getting one would invite aggression. | ||
| Not having one makes them vulnerable. | ||
| Now, we had a chance to make a deal that was based on mutual trust and assurances. | ||
| We blew up that trust. | ||
| That's why Iran started gradually increasing their stockpile of highly enriched uranium in reaction to cyber attacks, assassinations against their scientists, their generals, attacks against their nuclear plants. | ||
| And then, wait, wait, last thing, last thing, last thing, super important. | ||
| When we bombed Iran, that's their worst nightmare. | ||
| So that's why now they might be contemplating, oh, well, the breakout time is here. | ||
| The security situation has changed. | ||
| We need a nuke. | ||
| We're imminently in danger of being overthrown. | ||
| And that's really important. | ||
| I want to be clear. | ||
| I've been very good for the last hour and 45 minutes. | ||
| You guys are doing a great job, by the way. | ||
| I just, I agree with you, Nick. | ||
| And the CIA came out months after I said this and said attacking them may accelerate them towards finishing their bomb with nuclear hedging. | ||
| So let me ask Dinesh D'Souza that, and we got to go with these questions and comments. | ||
| I'm going to make you guys stay. | ||
| We have to do it. | ||
| Bunch of callers, a bunch of comments. | ||
| What about that issue that this accelerates them into that? | ||
| I think that is common sense, Dinesh. | ||
| Yeah, but there is a little bit of unrealism to it. | ||
| And some of the times, I think what happens is we get caught in this spider web of analytics. | ||
| This is Iran's motive. | ||
| They're hedging. | ||
| They're, you know, as if we're listening to some stock trade. | ||
| I got a hedge here. | ||
| It's very simple. | ||
| If you had a guy that lives down the street whose official doctrine is death to Alex Jones or death to Nick Fuentes, and that guy in his basement is making a bomb that can take out your home, take you out, take out your whole family, you're not going to sit around and go, well, what's the computation going on in their mind? | ||
| You're going to say that, guess what? | ||
| If that guy has the intention, which is to say the motive, and he has the ability to deliver this bomb in a catastrophic way, then guess what? | ||
| If I've got some friend in the neighborhood, let's call it Israel, and they go, listen, we're happy to go do the job for you. | ||
| We will go clobber that guy. | ||
| But guess what? | ||
| There's one part of the room we can't get to. | ||
| If you will lend us a plane for one night, we will bomb that part of the house. | ||
| And that'll be the end of that guy. | ||
| No more debt to America. | ||
| You'll be able to sleep safely at night, you and your family. | ||
| Who wouldn't take that deal? | ||
| Who would sit around going, well, we have a relationship based on mutual trust? | ||
| They keep saying debt to America, but we don't really believe them because lots of other people say similar things. | ||
| And so therefore, we're going to do an Obama type deal in which by and large, we kind of look the other way. | ||
| We don't even have good ways to fully monitor what they're doing. | ||
| Nick conceded they have the motive to do it, the interest in doing it, and they can do it pretty much whenever they want. | ||
| And you're saying we should rest at ease when we have people like that with essentially dangerous weapons. | ||
| Okay, Dinesh, Dinesh. | ||
| I want to go to comments and callers now. | ||
| I just want to ask you guys one more question. | ||
| People can look at it from an Israeli perspective, American perspective, Iranian perspective, but we've seen this whole chain and we've seen Wesley Clark, you know, 15, 20 years ago saying he was in the Pentagon meeting seven countries of regime change. | ||
| And we saw all that. | ||
| That's why Americans are against this. | ||
| It's not because we support the Mulas. | ||
| It's because, you know, we see this larger issue. | ||
| And that's my personal view. | ||
| I don't like the Moolahs, but at the same time, I don't want to be lied into a quagmire much worse than Vietnam. | ||
| 93 million people, potentially hidden nuclear weapons. | ||
| And Russia and China have said no more dominoes are going to fall. | ||
| This is part of a proxy war in World War III that's really already begun between the West and China and Russia. | ||
| We all know that. | ||
| So both of you, just one minute on, one minute on where the world is. | ||
| Has World War III already begun? | ||
| And do you guys agree with me that this is a proxy war or a hybrid war battleground between what's left of the West and the emerging new multipolar world? | ||
| I would just sum it up in a single sentence or two, and that is basically, I trust Trump in the same way that I trusted Reagan. | ||
| I don't think, I think Trump himself, just like the rest of us, was there for Iraq. | ||
| He learned the lessons of Iraq the same as the rest of us. | ||
| The difference is this is a guy who knows how to operate on the global chessboard. | ||
| He's already proven it in his first term. | ||
| He didn't drag us into any wars. | ||
| He has been a no-war president. | ||
| And I think he's a no-war president now. | ||
| I think he's trying to settle the issue in the Middle East the same way as he's trying to settle the issue in Ukraine. | ||
| This is not the same between the two parties. | ||
| Kamala Harris would never have ordered this strike on Iran. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because she has too many jihadis in her own party. | ||
| This is the party of Ilhan Omar. | ||
| It's the party, and I'm afraid it's a party. | ||
| This is why I suggested that Nick might be a Democrat, because a lot of the things that he said tonight are pretty much an echo of Ilhan Omar. | ||
| We can trust Iran. | ||
| They don't have any evil intentions. | ||
| They're a rational power. | ||
| They don't have any ill will. | ||
| Israel's the real problem. | ||
| Well, I mean, that's Ilhan Omar. | ||
| Okay, final comeback, Nick. | ||
| We got to take a few questions because everybody's got to go here soon. | ||
| It's an amazing live debate right now. | ||
| Tuesday, July 1st, interview. | ||
| We are at 848 Central here. | ||
| Appreciate both these guys being with us. | ||
| Nick, final comeback to that. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, the Democrat thing is just so crazy. | ||
| I just don't even know how to respond to that. | ||
| I mean, I guess the basis of the debate is I'm trying to talk about the present timeline. | ||
| I'm talking about the details of Iran's program, cause and effect, you know, the mindset of these countries, how they calibrate, how they calculate their strategies. | ||
| And then we get these kind of like fables, you know, from the cave paintings of Lascaux, the Barbary Pirates, you know, Ronald Reagan. | ||
| And it's just like, what am I watching here? | ||
| I feel like we're just in two different universes. | ||
| And, you know, look, I was sympathetic to a lot of those arguments at one time. | ||
| I read your books, Dinesh, and I watched your speeches when I was in high school. | ||
| And I was big into Fox News and all that stuff. | ||
| But I just feel like it's a completely different reality. | ||
| And I would say that the big picture, which we can all see, is that the Israelis, once again, are trying to drive us into another one of their wars, some dimension of U.S. involvement that is really not in our interest. | ||
| I don't trust Trump at all. | ||
| Clearly, he has no control over Netanyahu, who cannot restrain Israel at all. | ||
| And the tail is wagging the dog. | ||
| He pulls his chair out for him. | ||
| And Trump said repeatedly, we want to make a deal. | ||
| We want to make a deal. | ||
| And Israel said, no, we accept no deal. | ||
| We don't care about the terms. | ||
| If it's good, if it's bad, we're bombing Iran anyway. | ||
| And the second the time ran out on Trump's deadline, they were scheduling a sixth round of talks for that Friday. | ||
| And then that Sunday, Israel let loose and they bombed Iran and they started this war, one they knew they couldn't win. | ||
| They started getting pummeled and they knew that would force the United States to intervene in a way that wasn't effective. | ||
| And look, now we're in it. | ||
| Now we're trapped in this problem. | ||
| You're going to see it rear its head again in a few months and there will be more U.S. involvement. | ||
| We spent $30 billion on this conflict so far. | ||
| There's nothing America first about it. | ||
| I don't trust Iran. | ||
| I don't like Iran. | ||
| I don't like our adversaries. | ||
| I just want America's interest to be put first, and I don't see how regime— We're going to go to these callers and a few quick questions. | ||
| If Trump is trying to stop war, and we hope that's the case, and then Israel wants to go forward. | ||
| Then, is there any way out of a larger conflict? | ||
| You're saying it's going to continue on, then why is Trump saying today at Alligator Alcatraz that he's got a deal Monday? | ||
| Have you either one of you heard what that is? | ||
| Didn't I tell you got a lot of contacts with the World Liberal Party? | ||
| Well, no, I mean, all that I know is what's in the public record that Trump is trying to get Israel not simply to conclude the war in Iran, but also to declare a ceasefire in Gaza. | ||
| Now, Israel said right after October 7th, we are not doing this until we get the hostages back and until we have defeated Hamas. | ||
| So there is unanimity in Israel. | ||
| By that, I mean the Likud, the Labor Party, across the spectrum, the Israelis believe you attacked us. | ||
| We have a job to do. | ||
| But Trump is telling them, no, I'm going to stop you along the way. | ||
| So right away, I think here you see who's calling the shots. | ||
| It's not Netanyahu. | ||
| It's Trump. | ||
| In fact, the very idea that a small country like Israel, which is, like I say, what, 10 or 12 million people, we are 350 million. | ||
| We're bigger. | ||
| We're stronger. | ||
| We're richer. | ||
| If somehow the Jews control us, then truly they are the master race. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Nick, you got to respond to that. | ||
| And then I keep saying last question. | ||
| But, you know, pulling back from all of this, I literally wanted to just have a pro-Israel question, a pro-U.S. | ||
| question, pro-Iran, whatever. | ||
| I literally cannot find on the X account at Rilox Jones a even pro-war view because I want to show both sides. | ||
| And it's the same thing. | ||
| All the callers that I could see are anti-Israel. | ||
| So that's a larger question. | ||
| The polls show it. | ||
| The whole world's turning against Israel. | ||
| The Democrats are turning against Israel, who I can't stand, by the way. | ||
| And they love Islam, which is even crazier. | ||
| I got to be mad at Israel, but also not support radical Islam takeover or Orthodox Islam takeover. | ||
| So I think it's fair to say maybe you both disagree with me or maybe Danesha's Souza does. | ||
| There is definitely a hyper accelerated anti-Israel movement. | ||
| And does Israel realize that? | ||
| Even Michael Savage was on my show Friday and he said, look, I'm pro-Israel, but I want Netanyahu to go because he's turning the world against Israel. | ||
| And now they expel the few Gazans that are left alive and the image of them being marched off into the desert, you know, to Libya or wherever. | ||
| I mean, here's a simple question. | ||
| Do you agree today, Sasuja and the Nick, that Israel is at its most unpopular point since it was formed in 1947? | ||
| I would say to me, it doesn't even matter. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because I'm not Israel first. | ||
| I mean, I'm America first. | ||
| And so Israel's popularity or unpopularity is not at the forefront of my concern. | ||
| Now, I will say that my experience is that in the Republican Party, and I'm talking about the mainstream of the Republican Party, Israel is very popular. | ||
| Israel is not, in fact, it's not that the Republican Party has turned against Israel. | ||
| And this is why actually trust. | ||
| That's the only place it is popular. | ||
| I said that. | ||
| Well, I mean, it's popular among, it's popular by and large, I think, among the majority of practicing Christians in this country. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Maybe part of it is for biblical reasons. | ||
| Maybe it's partly because we have a Judeo-Christian heritage. | ||
| We have a Western civilization based on Athens and Jerusalem. | ||
| And Athens, of course, refers to classical reason. | ||
| But what is Jerusalem if not the land and the promises of the Bible? | ||
| So for a lot of Christians, that is important. | ||
| So yes, I agree the Democrats don't like Israel. | ||
| I agree that there are powerful forces around the world. | ||
| They don't like Israel. | ||
| But look, one reason for this is because the Muslims outnumber the Jews like 100 to 1. | ||
| What are they like 2.5 billion Muslims and what, 13 or 14 or maybe 20 million Jews in the world? | ||
| So is it any surprise that this larger force of Muslims has far more influence worldwide with the UN, with a lot of other countries, Asian countries, and so on? | ||
| They just outnumber the Jews. | ||
| And so that's one of the reasons why Israel is so, quote, unpopular. | ||
| Nick, comment to that. | ||
| Yeah, I mean, I would say Israel is unpopular because they killed 100,000 people in Gaza. | ||
| They destroyed 90% of the buildings, 90% of the roads, the hospitals. | ||
| They kill people that are trying to get aid supplies. | ||
| They kill innocent civilians. | ||
| They rape prisoners. | ||
| And then when the soldiers that rape the prisoners, this happened last year, get arrested, all the government ministers defend the soldiers and a riot forms outside the prison to defend them. | ||
| I think that's why people hate Israel right now. | ||
| And I would say, as far as Christians are concerned, why? | ||
| Why do we like Israel? | ||
| You have government ministers in Israel that say spitting on Christians is an ancient Jewish tradition and it's fine. | ||
| You have Zionist rabbis like the Koops who say that Christians should be killed. | ||
| They say atheism is preferable to Christianity because Christianity is idolatry. | ||
| Maimonides, who your buddy Josh Hammer, Josh Hammer, who by the way called all Europeans inherently anti-Semitic in our DNA, he said that Maimonides is the rom bomb. | ||
| He's our Thomas Aquinas. | ||
| Maimonides said to pray for the death of Christians every single day. | ||
| I don't know why Christians love Israel. | ||
| I don't know why people think that they're our friend. | ||
| I regard Jews and Muslims as basically the same insofar as neither of them are friends of Christians. | ||
| Neither of them are friends of the West. | ||
| I think they both have their own motives. | ||
| They both have terrorist groups. | ||
| They both oppose Christianity and see us as idolaters. | ||
| That's the Muslim beef with Christians. | ||
| That's the Jewish beef with Christians, our worship of the person of Jesus Christ. | ||
| And so I think that, you know, Israel's become very unpopular. | ||
| Contrary to what you and your family say, Dinesh, you say, well, anti-Semitism is because we like hate God's promise to Israel. | ||
| No, we don't like the fruits from the poisonous tree. | ||
| We don't like what Israel has wrought in the Middle East and the world in the past couple of years, in the past 70 years. | ||
| And it's just, I mean, it's not even a question they influence us. | ||
| The APAC money, the Edelsons, Chabad Lubavitch all over the White House, brought in by the son-in-law, Jared Kushner. | ||
| In the first term, Jared Kushner was put in charge of negotiations over the border, over the Abraham Accords, over so many things. | ||
| He's a donor to the Lubavitchers, and they ran that White House. | ||
| They were all over the place. | ||
| This should go all night real fast today, actually. | ||
| I swear to God, we're going to stop going to calls, but just real, two minutes. | ||
| Just on this issue of influence, here's the thing. | ||
| I think that, you know, it's Miriam Adelson gave $100 million to Trump for the 24 campaign, a great deal of money. | ||
| However, Trump is worth something somewhere between $4 and $8 billion. | ||
| So what that means is that for Trump, this kind of money is trivial. | ||
| It's kind of like saying, I'm a multi-millionaire and someone's giving me $100. | ||
| And then along comes Nick Fuente. | ||
| He says, oh, that guy owns you. | ||
| We gave you $100, Dinesh. | ||
| And people actually say this. | ||
| My son-in-law is a congressman in Dallas. | ||
| People say, well, APAC gave him $10,000. | ||
| Well, Brandon Gill spent well over $1 million in his campaign. | ||
| You think he's going to sort of change his position on Israel because someone gave him $10,000? | ||
| I mean, this is madness. | ||
| So similarly, I think there's a lack of perspective here about APAC. | ||
| You think APAC is more influential than the pharmaceutical companies? | ||
| You think APAC is more influential than the French company Airbus, which is powerful lobbyist influences and getting contracts all over the world, by the way, not just in America. | ||
| So there are lots of interests. | ||
| A lot of our own tech companies are far more loyal to globalist interests than they are to the United States. | ||
| They may be headquartered in Silicon Valley, but they don't care about America. | ||
| They care less about America probably than Israel does. | ||
| So the point is we can't be naive about all this, and we've got to realize that Trump is big enough. | ||
| He's enough of a mammoth figure that for these relatively trivial sums by a billionaire standards, he can't be bought. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| You both been very gracious. | ||
| Let's do a few calls and a few comments off X, but I'm telling you, it's all anti-Israel. | ||
| Should we allow APAD to continue to intervene in American politics? | ||
| Here, overhead shot. | ||
| And we have a few weeks ago with Tucker Carlson, we have Senator Cruz saying, oh, no, they don't have any authority. | ||
| That's what makes people freak out. | ||
| Just admit it's a powerful lobby. | ||
| Don't sit there and say, no, they don't really lobby. | ||
| Danesh, you want to respond to that? | ||
| Wait, can I take that case? | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Yeah, sure. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| So, yeah, I think that, of course, APAC should be registered under FARA. | ||
| And no, they should not be able to influence our politics. | ||
| The way that APAC came about is they sprung from the American Zionist Committee, which was a foreign entity. | ||
| It was foreign money pouring into the United States. | ||
| JFK said you got to register under FARA because it's foreign money lobbying for a foreign country. | ||
| And all they did was basically a trick to reorganize how that money is spent. | ||
| They changed how the money is spent and said, well, we'll take APAC and we'll make that a U.S.-based chapter, and then they can spend the money in the United States. | ||
| So it is a foreign lobby. | ||
| And this is basically what about ism to say, well, what about this lobby? | ||
| What about that lobby? | ||
| What about, you know, they're not the only one. | ||
| They are a foreign lobby. | ||
| And even though they give small sums to some congressmen, they spend big sums to primary congressmen that oppose them. | ||
| They did this to a number of progressive Democrats last year. | ||
| They spent millions behind primary candidates against Democrats that didn't vote for foreign aid to Israel. | ||
| So their influence is felt everywhere. | ||
| And it's always this little like obfuscation game that's played with them. | ||
| If you're America first, you can't be in favor of foreign lobbying. | ||
| All right, let's push the next. | ||
| Let's move to the next one. | ||
| Well, let's, yeah, let's push it some more because the one name that you gave us was Miriam Adelson. | ||
| Now, Miriam Adelson is married to Sheldon Adelson, and Sheldon Adelson made about $20 billion because he's a casino mogul in Las Vegas. | ||
| He owns the Venetian hotel, for example. | ||
| So here's a guy who's an American citizen. | ||
| He's a Jew, but we're not talking about the Israeli government. | ||
| So are you saying that you want a law that says that Sheldon Adelson, an American citizen, can't spend money on lobbying? | ||
| And how would you draw, tell us what this law would say? | ||
| Are you going to single out APAC? | ||
| Or are you going to say that basically no foreign interest can lobby in the United States, which by the way, I'm in favor of. | ||
| I'm not against it. | ||
| I'm simply against what it appears to me to be a kind of conflation between the foreign interests of a foreign state, Israel, and American Jews who are no different than Irishmen who, by the way, are very involved in Ireland's politics. | ||
| You have all kinds of societies, German societies, English societies that promote friendly relations with England. | ||
| As I mentioned, there are corporate interests abroad. | ||
| There's a Swiss billionaire, Hans Weiss Jordan, I think is the guy's name is. | ||
| He plows tons of money into the Democrats. | ||
| George Soros is a massive influence, a lot of money that's made abroad, now being deployed within American politics. | ||
| So yeah, if you want to have some restrictions on foreign money, I say more power to it. | ||
| But weirdly, you seem to be wanting to restrict the one money that's actually coming to benefit MAGA against these left-wing Democrats, as you say. | ||
| And you've not said one word about foreign money that's going to these left-wing Democrats in the first place. | ||
| I am against all foreign lobbying. | ||
| I am against all foreign money. | ||
| And the problem with this is you talk about Sheldon Adelson. | ||
| You say, well, he's an American citizen. | ||
| So what would you do about him? | ||
| Well, let me ask you about Sheldon Adelson. | ||
| Yes, American citizen, born and raised in Northeast. | ||
| Sheldon Adelson, when he died, his body was flown to Israel, where he was buried. | ||
| And the body was greeted on the tarmac by Benjamin Netanyahu. | ||
| Sheldon Adelson said he wished he served in the IDF and not the U.S. military. | ||
| He said, my heart is in Israel. | ||
| He lobbied the Trump administration to pardon Jonathan Pollard, who is an Israeli spy, stealing our secrets and giving them to Israel. | ||
| This was something he lobbied for for 10 years. | ||
| Like this guy clearly was a foreign agent. | ||
| Do you see any sort of problem with that? | ||
| I mean, don't you think that his citizenship is sort of a technicality? | ||
| Or do you take any issue at all with his clear foreign allegiance to the state of Israel? | ||
| Look, all I'm saying is that there are numerous examples of Americans homegrown who have for some reason or another fallen in love with some foreign country. | ||
| I mean, I'll give some examples. | ||
| There were countless Americans who went to the United States. | ||
| What about Adrian? | ||
| Do you have a problem with that? | ||
| Yes, of course I do. | ||
| Of course I do. | ||
| But I'm just saying that there's nothing uniquely Israeli about it. | ||
| Think of all the Sandinistas. | ||
| Think of all the Americans who went down there. | ||
| Think of the number of Americans who went and fought in the Spanish Civil War. | ||
| They were obviously putting other countries first. | ||
| There were many Americans. | ||
| Look at the Rosenbergs. | ||
| They spied against the United States for the Soviet Union, Klaus Fuchs. | ||
| So, what I'm getting at is there is an American tradition of Americans who, for whatever reason, sometimes ethnicity, sometimes ideology, they start putting another country first. | ||
| Are you asking me if that's wrong? | ||
| Yes, it is. | ||
| And I think when they break the law, they should be punished as the Rosenbergs, of course, were put to death. | ||
| Klaus Fuchs was arrested. | ||
| So we have laws and we should enforce them. | ||
| A lot of times, a lot of this bad stuff goes on because people in this country, our own people, allow it to happen. | ||
| How did we get 10 million illegals? | ||
| Because the Biden-Harris people went to the border basically and said, wink, wink, wink, come on over. | ||
| Biden said, when I win, let him in. | ||
| When Biden said, I win, immediately he searched the borders. | ||
| I think that's not open for debate. | ||
| You guys are gracious. | ||
| Let's hit a few phone calls and we'll end this debate. | ||
| This is amazing. | ||
| Thank you, Danesha Souzi. | ||
| Thank you, Nick Fuentez. | ||
| We've got loaded phone lines, hundreds of questions. | ||
| Let's just get to a few of these real fast. | ||
| So I'm going to go to these callers. | ||
| Ask your question or make your statement. | ||
| We're going to go to the next person. | ||
| Ronin in Texas. | ||
| You're on the air with our guests during this debate. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, I'll make this brief and hopefully Nick, you go on Rumble after this. | |
| But this is a question framed at Dinesh. | ||
| The entire Middle East hates us because of us acting as a proxy since around 48. | ||
| We've laid waste the entire region and Israel is always crying out as they strike others as usual. | ||
| But my question is, what is your solution to this entire problem that is in America's interest? | ||
| Because clearly supporting Israel is not in our best interest. | ||
| So what would your actual solution be moving forward with this Iran problem that stemmed from us backing Israel? | ||
| The question is, what is the American interest in controlling the Middle East? | ||
| Necissism? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| So the premise the entire region hates us can be immediately tested by asking, did the Saudis hate us? | ||
| No. | ||
| Did the Emiratis hate us? | ||
| No. | ||
| What about United Arab Emirates? | ||
| No. | ||
| What about Jordan? | ||
| No. | ||
| What about Egypt? | ||
| No. | ||
| Basically, the everyone hates us theory has been exploded right here because the majority of people, I just mentioned, probably the majority in the region don't hate us in the first place. | ||
| So who hates us? | ||
| Iran hates us. | ||
| The jihadis in Syria hate us, granted. | ||
| And the reason they hate us, I would suggest, has somewhat to do with Israel, but far more. | ||
| Iran doesn't care about the Palestinians. | ||
| Iran cares about the United States. | ||
| They use the Palestinians as a pawn. | ||
| Now, what's the solution? | ||
| When Trump first said it, I couldn't even believe it. | ||
| And it's taken me some weeks or even months to get my head around it. | ||
| When he said, turn Gaza into a resort, it sounded kind of crazy. | ||
| But what Trump is really getting at is that many of these places in the Middle East, when they were centers of tourism and trade, they were extremely prosperous. | ||
| Look at even Lebanon. | ||
| Lebanon, Beirut used to be a tourist destination. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Because people loved it. | ||
| It was beautiful, great food, lots of interesting things to see. | ||
| Then it became a war zone. | ||
| It went kaput. | ||
| Trump is basically saying if we can take some of these places, give these people an incentive to live a different kind of life, maybe the jihadism will be melted over time. | ||
| And what we will have is prosperity and trade and tourism. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Not much time left here. | ||
| Nick, you want to respond to that or the next caller? | ||
| In principle, I agree. | ||
| In principle, and you and I, Alex, have talked about this. | ||
| In principle, I believe that the alternative to war is prosperity. | ||
| And I think that we should achieve that through diplomacy. | ||
| But I think that when you start doing regime change in Syria, Libya, and then in Iran and these other countries, it leads to these long-term problems where it becomes basically impossible. | ||
| So that's why I'm a little bit more reserved when it comes to any kind of U.S. intervention, especially regime change, because I think that, you know, that's what Steve Witkoff on some level, to the extent that we can trust him, when he says make a deal with Iran, it's because he has business interests in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. | ||
| He doesn't want missiles flying over the Persian. | ||
| Let me ask you both that question. | ||
| If you were calling in this, this is amazing. | ||
| I wish you could all live. | ||
| I'm going to respect you guys. | ||
| Let you go soon in like 10 minutes. | ||
| What about Russia? | ||
| What about China? | ||
| What about North Korea saying we're thinking about giving nukes to Iran? | ||
| Pakistan talking about it, Dinesh. | ||
| And then, Nick, you haven't talked as much in the last 10 minutes. | ||
| Well, let's do that, Nick, first. | ||
| Nick, what about the escalation ladder here of these major powers that see it's the last domino to fall? | ||
| My bigger concern is that. | ||
| People go, well, you're a wimp, like Rabbi Shmoley. | ||
| You're just a wimp. | ||
| No, I'm not a wimp. | ||
| I'm a realist. | ||
| What about Russia? | ||
| What about China? | ||
| What about North Korea? | ||
| Your response to the National Suzuki. | ||
| Well, there is another frame to look at the bombing of Iran, and let's just analyze it from a bit of a different perspective. | ||
| It was a major blow to Russia, no question about it. | ||
| And I'll tell you why. | ||
| Russia is attempting to make this comeback. | ||
| They're trying to become a global or regional, at least, power again. | ||
| And they've done that by selling their weapons in Syria, building bases in Syria, giving their weapons to Iran, other countries. | ||
| And Iran had this idea that Russia was their strategic partner and they were going to get missile defense systems and fighter jets from Russia. | ||
| When Israel attacked Iran, those systems were completely null and void. | ||
| I mean, they were totally ineffective and Russia would not intervene on their side. | ||
| Russia basically abandoned them. | ||
| This is a major blow to Russia's credibility and to any potential client state. | ||
| They're all going to look at Iran and say, well, what about Iran? | ||
| How did that go for the Iranians? | ||
| You know, you were supposed to be their patron and now Israel wiped the floor with them. | ||
| So although I think there's more acute ramifications in the Middle East, without a question, this is, I mean, let's just be honest. | ||
| Russia's point that it's the U.S. is the dog and Israel is the tail. | ||
| But I don't think that's why the United States did it. | ||
| I think that that was a byproduct. | ||
| And I think that, again, that's what we can say in this narrow timeline right now. | ||
| I think that we're trapped in regime change in Iran. | ||
| I think that's going to be extremely negative in the long term. | ||
| But one of the byproducts, because, you know, like we invaded Iraq. | ||
| That is what forced Iran to stop weaponizing. | ||
| We invaded Iraq. | ||
| Syria and Libya abandoned their WMD programs. | ||
| Like sometimes it has byproducts that you can say are positive, but you have to take it all together. | ||
| So I think that's a good byproduct. | ||
| Well, I mean, I think it's kind of, it diminishes Trump not to recognize that he's thought of this, right? | ||
| I mean, if China is more reluctant to invade Taiwan, if Russia is more reluctant to take on a second conflict above and beyond Ukraine, I even saw Putin say something very interesting where he goes, not only do I have my hands full in Ukraine, but he goes, there are 2 million Russian Jews living in Israel. | ||
| And he says, I got to take that into account. | ||
| So this was an angle I hadn't really thought of, which is the number of Russians who emigrated to Israel. | ||
| And apparently Putin has some thought for those guys. | ||
| So I'm saying that I think Nick thinks, well, we did it because we're the pawns of Israel and we got some good benefits out of it. | ||
| I'm pretty sure that Trump had those benefits also firmly in mind when he did what he did. | ||
| Let's show the world that we are not, this is not the Biden-Harris regime anymore. | ||
| We're not the world's patsies. | ||
| We're not going to be sending pallets of cash to you. | ||
| If you misbehave, we're going to clobber you the way Reagan did, the way Thomas Jefferson did. | ||
| And that is America first. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Sailor in Florida. | ||
| You're there with Dinesh D'Souza, Nick Fuentes here, the historic debate. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Sailor in Florida. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Hello. | ||
| So I have a question for Mr. Dinesh D'Souza. | ||
| So you say that, and you didn't explain why Israel has the right to that land. | ||
| You said there's many reasons a country might, but you didn't get into that. | ||
| But my question for you, and you also say Judeo-Christian values, well, Jesus says, you have heard it said, therefore I stay. | ||
| And Jesus said, I'm going to have this temple that you're seeing here is going to be destroyed. | ||
| So and then it was. | ||
| And then they were exiled from the land. | ||
| So why? | ||
| How could you as a Christian believe that God intentionally destroyed the temple and had them scattered for 2,000 years? | ||
| And suddenly now once more they are entitled to this land? | ||
| They believe that Jesus is burning in hell. | ||
| So how can you say they are entitled to that land? | ||
| There is no difference. | ||
| No Jew nor Greek. | ||
| No, like we are all one under Christ and they reject Christ. | ||
| So why are we fighting for them to have the Holy Land? | ||
| It should be ours. | ||
| Jesus lived there. | ||
| Okay, thank you, Sailor. | ||
| That's just Susan. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Yeah, there are two aspects to all this. | ||
| One is a sort of theological one and the other is historical. | ||
| When I mentioned earlier about this is their original or aboriginal or their land, I was actually making an historical point, but let me address the theological one very briefly first. | ||
| The Bible predicts in numerous places that the Jews, after being scattered to the ends of the earth, will return to their homeland. | ||
| Now, if you read this in the Bible 100 years ago or 200 years ago, it would have seemed like the most preposterous, implausible, ridiculous thing to say because no other group has ever done this. | ||
| No other group has been scattered in this way and come back to the same land and speaking the same language and following the same rites and customs and having maintained their tribal identity and worshiping the same God. | ||
| But the Jews have. | ||
| The Bible predicted it and it's come true. | ||
| And you have to attach some theological significance to that. | ||
| Now, with regard to what you were saying about the Jews being there, I'm writing a book currently on biblical archaeology. | ||
| And this is the archaeology that began in the late 19th century. | ||
| It's continued through the 20th century, but massive archaeological discoveries in the last 20 years. | ||
| And it turns out that there's archaeological evidence now for Abraham. | ||
| There's archaeological evidence for King David's palace. | ||
| King David, by the way, lived 1,000 years before Christ. | ||
| There's archaeological evidence. | ||
| The seals of Isaiah and Jeremiah, the prophets, have been found. | ||
| So these are not mythical figures. | ||
| These are historical figures. | ||
| And what does this prove? | ||
| That the Jews were there. | ||
| They were there in 2000 BC, 4,000 years ago. | ||
| So whose land is it if not theirs? | ||
| Okay, so let me just say this. | ||
| The Romans wrote about the Jews there in the histories, and so did the Babylonians and the Egyptians. | ||
| So I don't, the Greeks, I don't think it's debatable that that went on. | ||
| Solomon, King David, all that. | ||
| Nick, Nick, comment to that. | ||
| Yeah, I don't disagree with Dinesh about the archaeological record. | ||
| And I believe I'm a Catholic, so I believe that King David and King Solomon were all real and they live there. | ||
| But I don't take it as a good omen. | ||
| When you say there's like a theological significance to the Jews retaining their religion ostensibly and then coming back to the Holy Land, I see it as actually a very dark omen because of course, you know, we talk about Iran's eschatological views about the 12th Imam and the Makdi and all this. | ||
| We don't talk about the Jews, which is in order for them to practice their religion, they need to reestablish temple worship. | ||
| In order to have temple worship, they need another temple. | ||
| And this is not exactly a fringe idea in Israel. | ||
| They talk about sacrificing these red heifers, these perfect red heifers. | ||
| And then ultimately, one of the goals of the religious Zionists is to take out the mosque, the Al-Aqsa mosque, and rebuild the third temple. | ||
| And this is sort of terrifying because it undoes what the caller said. | ||
| It undoes what Christ did, which was to destroy the temple because there's a new sacrifice, which is him, the Lamb of God. | ||
| There's a new temple. | ||
| There's a new church, new priests. | ||
| There's a new law. | ||
| And then they were sent out. | ||
| Now that they've returned, it's almost like it's working in reverse. | ||
| They've returned to the land. | ||
| And then, you know, it might point towards maybe they're going to rebuild the temple. | ||
| And who will inhabit the temple? | ||
| The Jews say that our religion is dead because Christ is dead, they say. | ||
| They say their religion is alive and their Messiah is yet to come. | ||
| Who will inhabit the third temple and sit in the Holy of Holies on the site? | ||
| It sounds like the Antichrist. | ||
| So, you know, and this is just sort of my speculation on this, but I mean, I sort of agree in a sense that you can't say it doesn't have theological significance, but I sort of tremble and fear what that represents. | ||
| I don't see it as a good thing. | ||
| Okay, Dinesh, comment on that. | ||
| I'm going to go to Jeremy and Daniel. | ||
| We're going to shut this debate down because I want to respect both of you. | ||
| I'd go for 10 hours, but you guys have busy schedules here. | ||
| We're live at 9.16 Central Time. | ||
| Dinesh, go ahead. | ||
| Well, I don't want to go too far down this road, but the Bible is a, it is a document that not only celebrates things, but it's prophetic. | ||
| And by that, I mean it anticipates events. | ||
| And this doesn't mean that these events are by themselves good or bad, or the people who involved are good or bad. | ||
| It just means that this is what's going to happen. | ||
| And so when the Bible says the Jews will come back, this is not a moral judgment. | ||
| It is a prediction. | ||
| And all I'm saying is it has come true. | ||
| The interesting thing to me about the Bible is even some of the figures of the Old Testament are morally not only ambiguous, but are just downright abominable. | ||
| Starting with David, by the way, because this is not just about him taking up with Bathsheba, but having Bathsheba's husband deliberately sent to the front where David knew he would be killed. | ||
| So David is not only an adulterer, he's a murderer, but nevertheless, he is also a chosen instrument of God. | ||
| And so you have this very interesting duality in understanding the Bible, where on the one hand, you have figures who are dubious in their own right, and we would not admire them in any way. | ||
| And as Nick says, they're a little scary, but they are nevertheless instruments of God. | ||
| Nick? | ||
| Yeah, I agree with that. | ||
| Actually. | ||
| All right, amazing. | ||
| I can go for 10 hours. | ||
| Two more callers. | ||
| I swear I'll let you everybody go. | ||
| This is amazing. | ||
| We've got to do this again. | ||
| I'll do more debates. | ||
| By the way, just brief question, both of you. | ||
| Because I forget, like three weeks ago, I heard Nick says, hey, will you let me, would you do a debate with Desa? | ||
| How did this debate happen? | ||
| How did it start? | ||
| Well, as far as I know, what it is, is that I saw on social media, it's probably some of Nick's super fans, and they were kept saying, these people in Con Inc. | ||
| are all wimps. | ||
| They're scared to debate Nick and they won't debate him and stuff. | ||
| And I just replied to a couple of those guys and go, well, I'm not scared to debate him. | ||
| I'd be happy to do it. | ||
| And then I just left that. | ||
| And somehow, kind of the snowball gathered more snow. | ||
| And to be honest, you know, I got to say, I mean, Nick, you know, I've seen some of your funny routines on social media and I expected a very different kind of debate. | ||
| I thought you'd be basically talking about how, you know, Indian people smell bad and things like this. | ||
| I had no idea where this was really going to go. | ||
| I want to commend you for keeping this very professional, focusing really on the topic that we agreed to. | ||
| I also want to commend you. | ||
| I mean, I don't think I've met too many 26-year-olds who could speak with the confidence and kind of background knowledge that you have. | ||
| So it's been a pleasure for me to engage with you in this debate. | ||
| And I'm very glad I'm here. | ||
| And I think that's an illustration before we go to Nick of populists, common sense conservatives. | ||
| We will have debates because I'm not endorsing everything that I say, everything Nick says, but this is what freedom is about, is a real, this is what colleges used to be. | ||
| Nick, Fuentes, go ahead. | ||
| Well, I really appreciate you saying that. | ||
| And yeah, it started out a little contentious. | ||
| You know, we said some things on Twitter, but I appreciate you saying that. | ||
| And, you know, I've been watching you for a long time. | ||
| I mean, I am younger guy. | ||
| So I grew up with your movies and your books. | ||
| I read your books. | ||
| I watched you on Fox News. | ||
| And I know we disagree, but I do think you're a brilliant guy. | ||
| I always have. | ||
| I think you're good at arguing. | ||
| And I've argued the subject with a lot of people. | ||
| And I think you're a pretty skilled debater yourself. | ||
| So I appreciate it too. | ||
| You know, you could have taken it a lot of ways. | ||
| You could have hit me and called me an anti-Semite and, you know, really railed on me. | ||
| So I also appreciate that, you know, we kept it cordial and we, you know, and there's a little flair and things, but we kept it about the issue. | ||
| And I had a great time too. | ||
| I think the audience learned a lot. | ||
| Good. | ||
| Two more callers. | ||
| We're let some of the cruise winners at 6 a.m. | ||
| So have I, but I'm having fun here, but we got to stop at some point. | ||
| Who did I say was going to the last two callers? | ||
| Jeremy and Daniel. | ||
| Jeremy and George here on the air. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| A question. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Oh, hello. | ||
| Am I on? | ||
| Yeah, you're on. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Awesome. | |
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay, so it's a real honor to be on with you guys. | |
| Nick, as a young man, you've been a huge inspiration to me. | ||
| Seriously, you give me like people like me a voice. | ||
| Danesh, you're a total staple in the movement. | ||
| Your work's been foundational for years. | ||
| I think you're amazing. | ||
| And Alex, man, people call you crazy. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You've been right more than wrong, of course. | |
| And history just keeps on proving it scraped to be able to speak to all three of you guys. | ||
| Well, sure, thanks for the comments about us. | ||
| But you want to talk about boots on the ground, which is a good question. | ||
| So go ahead. | ||
| Yeah, absolutely. | ||
| Real quickly, I just wanted to, and when I got on the line, I mentioned that, but I noticed when Dinesh called Nick a Democrat, I just wanted to point out something to Nick. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Nick, when you debate Dinesh, stay sharp on history. | |
| Don't let him shift into abstract moralizing. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You create a sounding principles while dodging the core issues. | |
| Keep them pinned on specific dates, policies, outcomes, and don't let them reframe your position. | ||
| Listen, listen, listen. | ||
| I took your call off the question you asked. | ||
| I'm on how to philosophical about shifting debates. | ||
| What is your comment? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, I was just going to tell Nick, in the future, when debating Dinesh, just say, do not redeem the comments. | |
| All right, enough, enough. | ||
| I know it's all big joke. | ||
| It's all big, you know, whatever. | ||
| Exactly what we're talking about. | ||
| You want Nick to hire him as a debate coach? | ||
| I don't think Nick really needs them, to be honest. | ||
| Yeah, I don't think so either. | ||
| Okay, let's give it another serious caller here. | ||
| Daniel in Alabama. | ||
| Go ahead, Daniel. | ||
| Do you have a real question? | ||
| Go ahead, Daniel. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, thanks for taking my call, Alex. | |
| I love how this debate came right on the heels of the Tucker Carlson Ted Cruz debate, where Cruz was defending Israel's war against Iran. | ||
| So my question is for Dinesh D'Souza. | ||
| How much of this war attacking Iran, defending Israel, is do you base it upon Christian Zionism and dispensationalism, which is an erroneous view of the scripture? | ||
| Without getting into the issue of sort of biblical exegesis, my views about politics are, and by that I mean, I see the world as a dangerous place. | ||
| I think there are lots of bad guys in the world, and it's naive to think that we can make treaties with all of them. | ||
| What we have to do is realize that occasionally a good thrashing is very necessary to put people in their place and keep them from their nefarious designs. | ||
| Sometimes we have to ally with smaller powers. | ||
| We're doing this all over the world, by the way, to check the growing power of China. | ||
| The U.S. will make alliances with India, South Korea, Japan. | ||
| This is the most normal thing in the world to prevent China from getting out of control. | ||
| We did it with the Soviet Union. | ||
| We allied with all kinds of countries, including a lot of European countries, by the way, to block Soviet power. | ||
| And similarly, in the Middle East, we've got a night watchman, and it's basically Israel. | ||
| I don't think we should make a single decision regarding Israel that's not in our interest. | ||
| I don't think we should give Israel one penny of money that's not in our interest to give them. | ||
|
unidentified
|
If we give them the money, it should be because it benefits us. | |
| I want Nick to have one minute comment. | ||
| We're taking final call from Douglas in New York, and then we're going to shut this debate down. | ||
| It's been amazing. | ||
| I want to thank you both for being here. | ||
| We'll tell people how to find you. | ||
| Dineshasousa.com, Nick Fuentes on Rumble, Nick J. Fuentes, and more. | ||
| Nick, comment to that last statement. | ||
| Well, yeah, I mean, I'll sort of meet Dinesh halfway here if he's willing to say, you know, we shouldn't do anything, spend one cent, do anything that's against our interests and for Israel. | ||
| You know, I will say for anybody that misunderstands my position, I agree Iran is an adversary. | ||
| I'm under no illusions about the fact that our State Department, our Defense Department compiles this sort of information. | ||
| And look, Russia, China, Iran, they are our adversaries. | ||
| They are forming up a bloc or a posse, whatever you want to call it, to challenge U.S. power. | ||
| Iran does not trust us. | ||
| They don't like us. | ||
| And they do back groups that I don't support their tactics. | ||
| I don't support terrorism and hostage taking and these types of things. | ||
| You don't support a theocratic dictatorship? | ||
| Correct. | ||
| I don't support. | ||
| I'm not a Muslim, so I don't support that either. | ||
| And I think, to be fair to Dinesh, I think it just comes down to, I think we both love America. | ||
| We have different experiences. | ||
| I think we both articulated we want America first. | ||
| And I think neither of us are ideologically isolationists, actually, or necessarily even total pro-war people. | ||
| I've seen Dinesh, he was against overthrowing Gaddafi and Assad. | ||
| It's just a question of in each case, you have to evaluate the facts and determine what the best course of action is. | ||
| And I think that's what the debate was. | ||
| So I, you know, I think here. | ||
| This is a debate. | ||
| I'm going to thank you both. | ||
| One last caller. | ||
| Two plus hours, two hours, ten minutes. | ||
| This is a, for people that ever saw one on CNN or ABC News, this is a real debate. | ||
| You just saw it. | ||
| Last caller. | ||
| There's 100 more, but we just can't do it. | ||
| Let's go to Douglas in New York. | ||
| You say you want to ask both people about Gaza and fighting for freedom. | ||
| Go ahead with your question or comment, Douglas. | ||
| Hi, my name is Douglas Sader. | ||
| I'm a member of the American Communist Party. | ||
| My question is mostly for Nick. | ||
| You know, Nick attacked Israel. | ||
| He's always attacking Israel, but he never defends the people that are actually fighting them, like Hamas and Hezbollah. | ||
| Hamas is ultimately waging a political struggle for national sovereignty, just like our founding fathers did in 1776. | ||
| If your friends and family were getting bombed by Israel, if you live in a prison colony like Gaza, you'd fight back as any real man would. | ||
| My question for Nick is why do you mock the people fighting Israel like Sinoar? | ||
| Why won't you uphold 1776 and its revolutionary spirit, catboy? | ||
| I love it. | ||
| I love it how we don't worship Islam. | ||
| Like even someone against Israel in general, I would just characterize, is not good enough for the communists who pick up any revolution to piggyback on. | ||
| That's a whole other question about the guy that won the mayoral Democrat primary. | ||
| And just like, I mean, my, as much as I don't like what Israel does, I look at the left and they're wedding to Islam. | ||
| Sorry, I'm just, I can't handle it. | ||
| Nick, go ahead. | ||
| Did that just final comment on this? | ||
| Well, there's your proof that I'm not a communist. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| There's your proof that I'm not a Democrat. | ||
| And I would say, you know, with regard to these, and, you know, we shouldn't be glib because it's a serious topic. | ||
| I think that, look, terrorism and guerrilla tactics, this is asymmetrical warfare. | ||
| When you're fighting a much larger opponent, you hit soft targets. | ||
| You engage in these types of campaigns that affect, they engage in terror, that are meant to intimidate and scare the public into withdrawing. | ||
| And there's a logic to it. | ||
| It's not to say that it is an evil, but you understand there's a logic to it. | ||
| And I would say that unlike communists, I'm a Catholic. | ||
| Christians do not do suicide bombing. | ||
| We just don't believe in that. | ||
| We don't do hostage taking. | ||
| We don't do that. | ||
| And I would, by the way, condemn the Christian militias in Lebanon who carried out the genocide in that war in 1982. | ||
| I just don't believe in those things. | ||
| Christians endured persecution and people say, well, any group that's oppressed, that's a man is going to fight like Hamas. | ||
| That's not true. | ||
| Christ bore the suffering on the cross and so did the apostles and so did the martyrs. | ||
| And, you know, that's our religion. | ||
| So I'm not a communist. | ||
| I don't believe in this like our theory, you know, rest in power and power to the people. | ||
| I'm not a communist. | ||
| Well, that's another question to close this out for both of you. | ||
| I swear I'll stop. | ||
| Yeah, let me say just a word about this, if I can, Alex. | ||
| And it's this, because it's in reference to what Nick said earlier about the fact that Christians are somehow like equidistant from the Jews and from the Muslims. | ||
| And I think that that is wrong on two separate counts. | ||
| The first one is that as Christians, our New Testament is not a break or a supersession or an abrogation of the Old Testament. | ||
| It incorporates the entire Old Testament. | ||
| We don't do the Jewish rites and customs, but we do do the Ten Commandments. | ||
| And that comes across. | ||
| And Jesus said, I have come to fulfill the law, not abolish it. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| The other point about this is that Jews are not into conversion, but Muslims are. | ||
| Jews, in other words, by and large, are happy to be Jews. | ||
| They don't really want anyone else to be Jews. | ||
| They make it really difficult to become a Jew. | ||
| But on the other hand, Muslims are not only so eager to convert that they want to talk to you about it, but they're perfectly willing to hit you over the head. | ||
| Well, Islam means submission. | ||
| It means submission to them. | ||
| There you go. | ||
| That's a key difference between Judaism and Islam, which is that Islam will force you and kill you and will, in fact, kill Muslims who defect from the faith. | ||
| Look at Salaman Rashdi, for example, who still has fatwas on his life. | ||
| The Jews don't do that kind of thing. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| Final comment and final comment from Dinesh. | ||
| Incredible debate. | ||
| I want to thank you both. | ||
| Nick, Fuentes. | ||
| Well, just, I mean, that's a whole can of worms, so we don't have to really get into that. | ||
| But I would just say that it is true that Jews don't try to convert people, but they, I am a supersessionist. | ||
| I'm Catholic, so I do believe that the New Testament does supersede the Old Testament. | ||
| And I would say that if you look at the modern Jewish religion, there's no basis in the Bible. | ||
| They look at the 613 commandments from the Bible, but they also believe that they received an oral tradition and a mystic tradition on Mount Sinai, that Moses went up and he didn't just get the Ten Commandments, but he got the Talmud, that he got the Kabbalah. | ||
| And, you know, there's these forgeries in the Middle Ages that say that he got this mystical tradition. | ||
| And I think that a lot of this stuff completely deviates from, to the extent that modern Judaism has any roots in the Old Testament, it completely deviates from that. | ||
| I think that the Jewish Messiah came, his name was Jesus. | ||
| And the Pharisees that rejected him, that put him up on the cross, well, they are the ancestors of the modern Jews. | ||
| And they only developed and further made complex their errors and their ignorance and their hardening their heart away from the true God. | ||
| So that's just sort of a, that's a huge topic, maybe for another debate, maybe another time. | ||
| But yeah, I mean, if we're wrapping it up, I just say it was a phenomenal debate. | ||
| I think everybody had a great time. | ||
| A lot of great points, a lot of good information, watchable, very civil and calm. | ||
| You know, it wasn't a screaming match. | ||
| So I thought it was great. | ||
| Well, just in closing, I wouldn't call myself a supersessionist, but clearly Christ came to fulfill the Old Testament. | ||
| It does fulfill it. | ||
| It's not even like an overriding. | ||
| It's a continuation of what he said. | ||
| And the covenant for everybody, not just the Jews. | ||
| So there you go. | ||
| Dinesh, final 60 seconds. | ||
| Dinesh D'Souza, DineshDasouza.com, amazing. | ||
| And Nick Fuentez, Nick Jay Fuentez, amazing, amazing debate tonight, a real debate. | ||
| Dinesh Dousa, final comment. | ||
| Alex, I'll just close out. | ||
| And this is really a topic for another day, but I think that there's an important distinction between the new covenant and the old. | ||
| There is a new covenant that God made with the Christians, and that does supersede the old covenant. | ||
| But the new testament doesn't supersede the old, because quite frankly, if it really did, we wouldn't have an old testament in the Bible. | ||
| The New Testament, I think a phrase I learned in Christian philosophy many years ago is that the New Testament is in the old concealed, and the Old Testament is in the new revealed. | ||
| So you see here the intimate relationship between the old and the New Testament. | ||
| No, I agree. | ||
| It is a completion. | ||
| It is a fulfillment. | ||
| It's one compendium. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So I don't think one even, I'm just saying the new is the completion. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Amazing, incredible interview. | ||
| This is what the left doesn't want. | ||
| They're the ones that want to censor. | ||
| This is totally different and free. | ||
| Thank you so much, gentlemen, for being with us. | ||
| Thank you so much. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Well, that was a two-hour plus debate. | ||
| I think we did A minus for me, A plus for our guest, and A minus for what the enemies will say about us. | ||
| But at the end of the day, the crew did an A plus job, and I really appreciate everybody. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| I've been up since 5 a.m., actually, 4.45. | ||
| But I'll be back tomorrow, 11 a.m. | ||
| Central. | ||
| Harrison Smith, 8 a.m. Central American Journal. | ||
| Owen Troyer, 3 p.m. tomorrow. | ||
| I want to thank the crew. | ||
| Some of them like Matt have been here since 6 a.m. | ||
| And I know this, I am cross-eyed at this point. | ||
| It was very hard to shut this down. | ||
| What a great debate. | ||
| What a great discussion. | ||
| I should have made the rules up front, but it was their debate they wanted to have. | ||
| They just offered me to do it. | ||
| So I would just make it about what's going to happen out of this. | ||
| I mean, I hope this fight was just hot air. | ||
| I hope no radicals take action on it from Iran. | ||
| I hope we get a deal Monday. | ||
| I just want to get the jobs back, secure the border, stop the pedophile promotion, the devil worship, and just have peace and stop war with Russia. | ||
| And at the end of the day, that's really where I stand. | ||
| So that was a great discussion and debate. | ||
| And I thought they would mainly go at each other more. | ||
| I had to interrupt a few times just to interject changes. | ||
| But compared to mainstream debates, that was a very free, open debate. | ||
| Please remember, the establishment does not like this show being on the air. | ||
| The Democrats are still in the Justice Department. | ||
| Trump hasn't gotten rid of them. | ||
| They're still trying to shut us down. | ||
| Your support is so vital at thealestoid.com. | ||
| That's how the crew came in here to work all these hours. | ||
| So thank you for all your support. | ||
| This show belongs to you. | ||
| Take clips out, share it however you want. | ||
| It's all free to air. | ||
| And the live feed at 9.34, we're going to go to a few promos here and restart the whole debate in the last two hours and 30 plus minutes in case you missed any of it right now at RealAlex Jones on X. So I think I've done my job today. | ||
| I've left it all on the field. | ||
| Now it's up to you, the viewers and listeners, to take whatever you think was most important from this and share it. | ||
| But overall, this was a real debate, and I'm very blessed to be here. | ||
| So thank you so much. | ||
| The refeed of this all begins now. | ||
| The ball's in your court. |
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