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July 12, 2012 - No Agenda

02:09:54

425: Understanding No Agenda

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Time	Text
	Roll tape, roll.
	Yeah, but we still have to start what people never hear on the show.
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Whatever that means, hit it.
	Adam Curry, John C. Dvorak.
	It's Thursday, July 12, 2012.
	Time for a media assassination of the No Agenda Show, episode 425.
	This is No Agenda.
	Pretending to be live on the best podcast in the universe, but really just making it, because I'm getting married in the morning.
	I'm Adam Curry.
	And from northern Silicon Valley, where he's getting married in the morning?
	You're kidding me.
	I'm John C. Dvorak.
	So finally, people on the podcast heard Hit It.
	That was my hope.
	Don't they hear Hit It normally?
	No!
	Thanks for listening to the show.
	It usually starts off with me saying something stupid that you found in the show and then you run the...
	Believe me, it's not hard to find that.
	So we're doing show 200.6, which is also show 425, which is ironic, which is actually show 200.5 with addendum.
	So, what we're going to do for anyone listening, we're going to play, the show 200.5 was an introductory show that we gave to people that are members of the Deuce Club.
	Oh, that's right.
	And we are going to play, not the whole thing, because there's some stuff in there that just is not important.
	So, we took a little chunk out.
	And we do some questions and answers, and we're going to do some questions.
	We'll interrupt it right in the middle and...
	We're going to talk about how the show has changed since our analysis, which was almost two years ago.
	Yes.
	Was it really two years?
	Yeah, I guess it was two years ago.
	What was the date on that, actually?
	Did you look at that?
	Because I got the...
	You had the date.
	I have it on the other computer.
	It's like July 2009 or 2010 or something like that.
	So for anyone who's been pointed to this by someone else...
	I was saying, well, if you want to know what these guys are all about, then you need to listen to this show, which I hope it'll work for you.
	Well, maybe we can.
	I took a lot of notes on the show, on the 200.5 show, so we can talk about what's changed, and a lot of things have changed, especially the noise factor.
	Are you complaining about something?
	The show's noisier than it's ever been.
	May 17th, 2010.
	Yeah.
	So more than two years ago.
	Yeah, you're a little over.
	Yeah, wow.
	Okay.
	All right, so we're going to play that because it does explain a lot about the history of the show, why it's so hard for people who just give it a one-off casual listen to get into it immediately because there is definitely some stuff like jingles and some Top 40 radio type stuff which seems a little bit out of place.
	What we do, how we do it, and it definitely needs updating because a lot has changed in my life since May 17th, 2010.
	I think for you probably nothing has changed.
	No, I was just saying I'm sitting in the same chair.
	All right, so we'll be back.
	No skipping ahead now.
	You'll enjoy listening to it again.
	Yeah, we'll be back right in the middle of it.
	Yep.
	Here is No Agenda episode 200.5.
	Adam Curry, John C. Dvorak.
	It's May 16, 2010.
	Time for your Gitmo Nation media assassination episode 200.5.
	This is No Agenda.
	Welcome to a special backstage tour of the No Agenda show coming to you from the Hilltop Watchtower Crackpot Command Center in Gitmo Nation West in the People's Republic of Southern California.
	In the morning, I'm Adam Curry.
	And it's not really a media assassination today.
	It's a No Agenda assassination.
	I'm John C. Dvorak.
	It's Crackpot and Buzzkill.
	In the morning.
	We still get to say in the morning.
	Yeah, definitely.
	In the morning never goes away.
	You know, the thing is, we should tell people, since this is really a show where we're just essentially going to talk about the show, and we're going to answer a lot of questions, and probably ask some.
	But, you know, one of the things...
	You should immediately note, we actually had the debate as to whether we're going to play the opening jingle.
	It's kind of sad that we didn't put the debate on the backstage show.
	This is kind of where we...
	Yeah, I think on this show, which is driven by support from our producers slash donors, supporters...
	Where we kind of bear it all.
	Not that we have any secrets, I don't think, but people just want to know a lot of stuff that we don't put into the show because, little known facts, we make it look easy.
	And also, a lot of this personal stuff that they're asking, because I sent out a message on Twitter to get some questions, and we also got a couple of emails, and you worked up some questions yourself.
	To be honest about it, a lot of it is just plain boring.
	Yes, indeed.
	You know, John and I have been in, in fact, you said this on episode 200, we've been in media, in all forms of media, from print, you've probably been around typesetting, Actually, I used to be a typesetter part-time when I was in college.
	See?
	Doesn't surprise me.
	All the way through to today's reality-based television programming and everything in between on mainstream media.
	And I would say, well, I certainly gave up a number of years ago, and I am patently unhirable by mainstream media.
	In fact, the last gig...
	Especially after you did that CNTC thing.
	Well...
	Yeah, that's right.
	When I said Michael Jackson was probably killed, and they cut me off, and of course now it turns out he probably was.
	But yeah, the last radio station I was on, which was around the time we started this show, actually.
	In fact...
	No, you were doing that show while we were doing this show.
	Yeah, but I think we started this show, yeah, but I'd only done a couple, like a week or two, and then we started doing this show, right?
	I was doing that first, wasn't I? No, I think you were fired during...
	I was fired during...
	We were doing No Agenda when I was fired, but I'd only just started that show.
	Yeah, no, I think we did it for about a month.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, I was trying to think back, because that was, I think, 26 of either October or November 2007.
	The first episode was like 35 minutes.
	The good old days.
	I was living in London, which did give the show a very different flavor, I have to say.
	I was also baked out of my mind.
	Right.
	Although, you know, to be honest about it, I don't think that was apparent.
	And I actually argue with you, I don't think your personality has changed that much since you stopped smoking.
	Right.
	Well, there's a couple of episodes there where I remember one time I actually went off on some tangent and I said, dude, I'm so baked.
	Yeah.
	I do remember that.
	But the personality.
	Well, I'm happy to hear that.
	I'm just more awake, and I can do more, and I'm more focused.
	Yeah, and you finally got a rig that makes me sound decent.
	Yeah, but that's...
	Well, you know, at the end there...
	At the end there, we had a pretty good setup.
	It sounded okay.
	But this is the best one, I have to say.
	This is definitely the best one.
	Now, we met...
	At, I guess, where did we meet, John?
	Was I in Cranky Geeks?
	Well, tangents.com on Twitter asked the question.
	The real Dvorak and Curry have a unique relationship.
	How did you guys meet?
	And did you hit it off right away?
	I'll tell you something I found in my crap that arrived from the UK. I found a videotape.
	Of the CNET pilots where we actually first met for the very first time.
	I think that was in 1993.
	Three or four, maybe.
	I think it was three.
	Yeah.
	And I'm going to get one of those VHS to DVR thingies to transcode all of this stuff.
	But this was when CNET did not have a website.
	In fact, I registered CNET.com.
	And said to Halsey Minor, hey dude, I'll do your email if you want.
	You might want to have a web thing.
	I think that would be more appropriate for what you're doing here, but alright.
	They paid me like 20 grand to do that pilot.
	Which was nice.
	And you were doing kind of a McLaughlin group type roundtable as the pilot for that show.
	Yeah, that's kind of interesting because with CNET, they actually went through a whole bunch of people before they decided they wanted me to do it.
	And I didn't really want to do it.
	Actually, to be honest about it, I never wanted to work for CNET. But I did like the idea of watching Kevin Wendell at work.
	Once they brought him on, it was a little more...
	He was the guy from Fox.
	Yeah, he's a guy from somewhere.
	He's a Hollywood guy.
	He had set up the Fox network.
	He was one of the driving programming forces behind Fox.
	Well, I don't remember that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Whatever the case was, he was a slick operator, and it was fun to watch him work.
	But they first wanted Leo Laporte to be the McLaughlin guy, and Leo wanted to do it badly.
	He always wanted that sort of gig.
	But it's because it's very serious, and it's this and that.
	But they had me do it, but that never got off the ground.
	It just wasn't going to work.
	And so then they gave me some other job, being kind of a clownish co-host.
	With Gina St.
	John.
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, they offered me to move out to San Francisco and be there full-time, and they offered, like, really low salary but two million shares of stock, and I declined.
	Yeah, well, that was an error.
	Well, who knows what, you know, I was like, well, how many?
	Yeah, I know it's a crapshoot.
	I did the same thing.
	I screwed up.
	I said, how many shares outstanding?
	Well, it was vague, right?
	I was like, you know what?
	I got a pretty good thing here at MTV. I'm good.
	So anyway, so we met in 93 casually.
	Very casually.
	Very casually.
	But, you know, we followed each other's careers a little bit, but then I was kind of triggered by that when you had your moment of richness.
	And I was floating around Europe, and I ran into a newspaper with one of these papers.
	I think it was a Dutch story somewhere.
	and it had a picture of you and you're some superstar in holland and this is unbelievable so this guy makes so much money yeah and so then you showed up in town again and so then we just kind of forced myself but wasn't wasn't it a yes and that was nice but wasn't it a wasn't i on cranky geeks when we connected no i think we met up first and then i put you on cranky Well, where the hell was it, John?
	Well, we did an email exchange and I said, let's go have lunch or something.
	We had our initial re-meeting lunch at Fringal.
	And we talked about getting a daily news show, the Tech 5 thing, ideas like that.
	And then we went and had a big meeting with Ron in the office.
	Yeah, Ron Bloom.
	You were on Cranky Geeks after that.
	I'm trying to look now in my email if I have something from you.
	That must have been 2007, right?
	Probably.
	How do you do that in Gmail?
	Do you do date 2007?
	I don't know.
	Hmm.
	Anyway, that's basically the story.
	And then we, I don't know, we just kind of naturally got along.
	We really don't know.
	That's the answer.
	We really don't know how that happened.
	We actually get along just in some funny way.
	It's not really explainable.
	It's like, you know, you meet somebody and you've known them for a long time, so you know that they're obviously not assassins.
	Of course, that may not be true.
	Yeah.
	But whatever the case is, you've always had an acquaintance and then you decide that now you're working together.
	It's almost like where people meet on a Hollywood set and they're hanging out a lot and then they go off their separate ways.
	But instead of going off our separate ways, since we were both at Mevio, we decided to start doing a show.
	And now it's debatable how it got named when we started.
	I think I came up with the name.
	I don't know if that's true.
	I think you're the one that approved the name.
	Are you going to tell me it was your brain fart?
	I think it was.
	I was saying, well, we got no agenda.
	And then you said, let's call it no agenda.
	Yeah, that sounds about right, actually.
	That sounds good.
	Something like that.
	And then as it evolved, we got into other things which are kind of the same kind of like we don't know who came up with the idea.
	I mean, the donation thing.
	Well, before we get to that, because the show started off with a very different format.
	It was, in fact, I think our first show was on a Friday and like a Friday afternoon, Friday morning for you.
	And we would just talk about stuff.
	And I would grab the Financial Times, but we would also just talk about stuff.
	You know, the difference between America and Europe.
	And it was just like a casual...
	Conversation.
	Yeah, just like a conversation.
	And this was, in my opinion...
	I've always felt that two guys, an interesting conversation between two people is interesting to everybody.
	And I've always believed I could sell conversations I have with my wife, and I always felt that a good conversational show where there's not a lot of...
	Rehearsal or preparation, but just guys just talking about stuff that they know a lot about.
	And coincidentally, because the two of us are so extremely well-traveled, I mean, pretty much been everywhere, and observant because, you know, we're generally floating around looking at stuff, it turns out that we have enough life experience to have an interesting conversation. it turns out that we have enough life experience to And we're both from slightly different backgrounds, so we could complement each other in ways that I thought was interesting for people to listen in on.
	Yeah, and from my perspective, I was looking to do a show with total honesty.
	Not in the regard of, oh, let's all hold hands and tell each other a secret.
	But more like, you know, why don't we just say what it is and not be fake and just talk about stuff and we can contradict and we can have an argument and we don't have to...
	In fact, we had no...
	We had no thoughts even, I think, about making money doing...
	No agenda.
	Yeah, we had absolutely no agenda.
	And I was just happy that someone would listen to my bullshit.
	Like, hey, here's a guy who actually knows more than me, because he's been around longer, for sure.
	And we'll listen to some of the...
	Because I think I was maybe a late bloomer.
	I was saying, oh, wait a minute, the world kind of works a little bit differently.
	Because I was so embedded in the hits.
	That's all I did.
	I played hits on radio, on television.
	I knew what all the celebrities were doing, and all of a sudden I'm like, there's something else going on here.
	I think I corrupted you more than you corrupted me when it comes to this show.
	Correct.
	I would agree.
	Mainly because of my natural cynicism.
	I took a test.
	It was a computer software program some years ago.
	I've always found it fascinating.
	That was a career guidance.
	It was almost like it was a very elaborate computer test.
	You'd answer a million questions.
	It was like an MMPI or Minnesota multi-phase personality inventory that people take in some companies.
	It's actually an illegal test.
	You shouldn't be forced to take it.
	But it can tell whether you're a psycho and all these other things.
	And this was to determine what your career path should be.
	And I took the test a couple of times and it was the weirdest thing to get back at the top of a career path.
	This is telling you, this is what you should go be doing.
	Critic.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	That's awesome.
	That's really good.
	I like that.
	So anyway, so yeah, we've got that thing.
	When we started, there's a couple...
	I got like hand worker on all my tests.
	You should be shoveling shit, boy.
	You shouldn't be in any kind of business.
	You might be surprised.
	That test was pretty amazing.
	I had other people take it.
	It was just like nailing people left and right.
	I wish I could...
	If I could find it in my archives...
	I'll take it.
	If you can find it, I'll take it.
	If I could reproduce it in a modern format, it would be nice.
	So anyway, we started the show just casually, and it really started picking up a following quickly, and people were feeding back into the mechanism, encouraging the continuation of the show.
	And then somewhere along the line, this was your idea, I'm sure of it, because it could have been mine.
	You decided to do two shows a week.
	Yeah.
	I don't remember why.
	There was some reason, because I think the show was starting to get long.
	It was getting long, yeah.
	We said, well, why don't we do two shows?
	Actually, that's when we made a real commitment, though.
	No, that was much later in the game.
	We made a real commitment to do two shows after we said, hey, this is real.
	We're building an audience.
	But I think we were going for a good year there just on one show.
	We probably went a year building an audience, and we had kind of a weird audience because there were really your fans separate from my fans, and my fans would say, you should do the show by yourself.
	You should get rid of Curry.
	Give that motherfucker two to the head, man.
	We don't need that bastard.
	And I can't believe that he's getting the same kind of commentary.
	And it's always made me laugh because it's like, oh yeah, that's what you want.
	Just some guy fucking solid.
	By the way, I have never...
	No conversation, no pace and flow.
	I have never received, never received an email of someone saying get rid of Dvorak, ever.
	I have seen the Get Rid of Dvorak meme on Twitter, and I've seen it here and there.
	I've never seen it.
	I'm not kidding.
	I've never seen it.
	Nice, then.
	Well, then your fans are less crazy.
	Hostile, yeah.
	Hostile.
	Okay, so...
	At a certain point, though, I think that what really drew us together is we're both radio guys.
	At heart, I think we're...
	And I know I am.
	And I grew up in radio.
	Television was more like a sidetrack for me.
	I never felt I... I'm too tall.
	I'm too lanky.
	I'm too geeky.
	I have Tourette's.
	There's a whole bunch of stuff that would make me not ideal for television.
	My head isn't big enough.
	To be really successful.
	I know about that.
	Yeah, you've got to have a huge, not metaphorically speaking, but physically a huge head that makes you successful on TV. We've already established that.
	But it was, I think, really our mutual love of radio.
	I love radio, and there's a lot of reasons I think it should be explored.
	One is the fact that you don't have to...
	It's different.
	I mean, radio is...
	And this is basically what we're doing, is radio, and it's a modern form of radio podcasting.
	You don't have to get dressed.
	You don't have to...
	There's more than that.
	It's theater of the mind is what I like about it.
	Right.
	And you can also...
	Right.
	Well, the theater of the mind part, which is extremely valuable.
	I don't know.
	I mean, my first broadcasting training was in...
	I went to Foothill College for a while and I was on the radio station.
	And I just loved it.
	I produced a radio play and I did a lot of radio.
	I got a third class license, which you had to have at one time.
	Oh, yeah.
	FCC license.
	I still have mine.
	Nobody needs them anymore.
	And I've always liked...
	And I'm very...
	It's kind of a sound nut.
	I like good quality sound, which is why I was always carping on the quality of this podcast.
	Even when I was doing...
	Silicon Spin at Tech TV. Sound is always forgotten on television.
	Yes, but I made a big stink about it because it sounded so bad.
	And two of the sound engineers that were working there, I was their hero.
	Yeah, I know.
	Hero of the sound engineers!
	Because the sound engineers couldn't get anybody to listen to the fact that they were using cheap mics and they weren't doing notching or anything.
	Right.
	And so the sound, it sounded like a cheap-ass production.
	Now the thing that's interesting is that MIT, during the Negroponte era when they had the media lab, they had studied this to death and they had done double-blind studies over and over again and it kept coming up.
	If you take a group of people and have them watch a TV show with shitty sound, And then have them compare and then show another TV show with really great sound, like Dolby 5 Channel.
	They watch longer.
	No, it's not just that.
	When they do an analysis, they claim the pictures better.
	Oh, that's fantastic.
	Yeah, it makes sense.
	And I'm a sound nut, although I've had a lot of trouble, you know, just because of the technology we've been using, but now, okay, so now it's where it should be.
	I am way into creating a custom sound that gives you something that affects the listener in other ways.
	By the way, you have the record button pushed?
	Ooh, yes, I do.
	So, you know, we have compression.
	I put noise gates on because I don't want to hear...
	When either I'm talking or there's...
	By the way, I love silence.
	When neither of us say anything, the noise gates kick in.
	It's completely silent.
	If I didn't have those on, then I'd hear your room.
	I'd hear stuff, rustling of papers.
	And that's, to me, an important part of our sound.
	And I love it because in the beginning...
	Certainly when we had a huge Skype delay, people would be like, oh, you know, I keep grabbing my iPod or my MP3 player because I think that the thing is stopped or it's crapped out.
	But then you guys talk again, and it gets people's attention.
	Silence is beautiful.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It does work.
	And we have a moment of silence every so often.
	But anyway, so the two of us are kind of have a...
	We have amenable personalities.
	Yeah.
	So we're complementary.
	People say, well, you work because you're the opposite.
	No, we're hardly the opposite.
	No, not at all.
	We're just complementary.
	We have different kind of needs, issues, perspectives, but they're not opposite.
	They're just different.
	And so it worked out.
	So we have a show that works.
	Very rare to do these kind of partnerships.
	Somebody else asked a question.
	Let me go to this one.
	Who's the star of the show?
	And of course, that would be me.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Right on.
	I thought I'd get that in before you gave the same line.
	I was wondering if we could actually say it at the same time.
	Like, nah, it'll never work on Skype.
	We'll never hit that at the same moment.
	No, but that would have been funny on stage.
	So, yeah.
	In a Smothers Brothers kind of humor way.
	There's no star of the show because...
	And there's no, like, sidekick.
	I mean, it's not like there's a dominant character.
	I mean, Adam produces the show, so he picks up the dominant side of the production, because he's the one who hits the buttons, it says, in the morning, and he's the one who opens the show, because he's got all that gear.
	But it just happens to be what you have to do if you're producing, because if I was producing...
	You'd be starting the clips on my cue.
	I'd be starting the thing myself.
	And somebody has to produce.
	You can't have two producers.
	No.
	That would suck.
	But...
	What happened, and a lot of people...
	Talk about this, at least I've seen it around, like, well, you know, it used to be, in fact, we used to say the show that has, we would open the show, the show that has no jingles, no sound effects, no agenda, and then I think you, because people need to know that John is the kind of guy, and I really appreciate this, by the way, who will see something on television or find a crazy documentary or something that you're generally interested in, and it's often, I think, it's stuff that you don't even...
	Believe in or care about yourself, but he'll burn you a DVD and make a nice label on it.
	And I'm always amazed by the labels.
	It's always nice art, and it's labeled beautifully.
	That way if the feds bust in, they look at it, they say, oh, this isn't a bootleg.
	This has got to be the real thing.
	It's got to be the real deal.
	But that's not like movies.
	It's documentaries.
	It's different shows that he's seen.
	And you handed me a copy of The Family Guy.
	With the episode Weenie and the Butt.
	And that really got the...
	Because, again, we're both radio freaks.
	And we figured this would just be funny to do, and it kind of stuck.
	And I think that it would be fun.
	That's also where In the Morning came from, by the way.
	And it's such a takeoff on the morning zoo format, which we both, I would say, love and hate at the same time.
	Loathe, of course.
	Now it's just so old-fashioned.
	But when you listen to this, you can understand why radio guys get off on Weenie and the Butt.
	It's about two minutes, this.
	Oh, that's the Hulu.
	The Hulu pre-roll.
	Watch your favorites anytime for free.
	Hulu.
	Hey, everybody.
	It's Weenie and the Butt here live at the Quahog Air Show.
	We're all ready for the Weenie Sound-alike contest.
	I don't know, Butt.
	I don't think they can say my catchphrase because they no funny.
	Oh, there it is.
	And if you think you can say that just like Weenie here, you could win $97.1 for the cool weekend ahead.
	Weenie have a butt.
	Weenie have a butt.
	Cool weekends in the morning.
	97.1 at 10.
	Cool weekends in the morning with Weenie in the butt.
	WQHG 97.1.
	97.1! Wee and the butt!
	In the morning, cool weekends!
	F.A.M. Wee and the butt!
	And welcome back!
	Excuse me, I gotta find a lost kid.
	Can I use your mic?
	That's what she said.
	Whoa, you got butt slam!
	Listen, I could really use a hand here.
	That's what he said.
	Butt slam!
	That's Manic Monkey on 97.1.
	Manic Monkey, 97.1.
	Cool weekends in the morning.
	Oh, weekend long.
	Wee and the Bucks.
	In the morning.
	In the morning.
	On the radio.
	Give me that.
	Stewie Griffin, will you please report to the radio booth?
	Stewie Griffin.
	Hey, that's quite a voice you've got there.
	You ever think about doing radio?
	Well, uh, I listen to a lot of radio.
	Peter and Lois leave the radio on when they go out, so I feel like somebody's home.
	Well, here's my card.
	Call me if you're interested.
	Hey, okay, we've got our first contestant.
	Let's hear Weenie's catchphrase.
	They're no funny.
	I think we have a wiener.
	And that's Dickie the Punchline Donkey on 97.1.
	Dickie the Punchline Donkey on Cool 97.1.
	Cool weekend.
	On the radio.
	And the burning.
	FM. Cool.
	WQHG in the morning on 97.1 97.1 It's one of the greatest moments in Family Guy history.
	It really is.
	And you know they produced all of that stuff and they must have had a ball because it really was like that in the 90s, in the 80s and the 90s.
	Radio was absolutely in the morning.
	No content.
	Zero content.
	All filler.
	And I used to hate it.
	We'd have to do liner cards.
	Here, read this, hit the jingle.
	Alright, $100.1 in cash for you on Z100. Z100 serving the universe.
	So, we kind of decided...
	We didn't decide.
	It just happened.
	Most of the show, by the way, for people who are asking all these questions, it's really an evolution.
	Yeah.
	There's no meetings.
	We don't have meetings.
	We don't really talk about...
	No.
	In fact, if there's a rule, we generally agree not to talk about what we're going to talk about.
	Because we know that what will happen is we'll start talking about it, and then we bring it up on the show.
	And then it'll always suck.
	It's like, ugh.
	In the morning!
	We ended up getting a bunch of these jingles and things, which some people complain about, but the fact of the matter is it paces the show well.
	It is a mockery of the other model, but it adds kind of a nice...
	I don't know what it is.
	The atmosphere is improved by it.
	The in the morning thing is used as a rim shot, generally, or should be, and it is often.
	So I say something funny, which is very common on the show, and then he hits the rim shot.
	Or if you go off on a tangent.
	So we have a bunch of these things which we use.
	And now we've got a couple of questions.
	By the way, that's an old radio trick for a segue.
	It's really, it helps transition the listener's brain from one segment to the next.
	It jars you for a moment there.
	And if you listen to our last show, show 200, Adam was going off the deep end.
	On some topic.
	It was way at least two, three minutes overdue to stop it.
	And I told him to play the Adam Curry's Pet Peeve of the Day jingle, which I knew would transition.
	It would, you know, stop him in his tracks.
	That's right.
	It also stops me.
	You're right.
	Yeah, it works perfectly that way.
	So the show, here's from one of our listeners.
	The show you do today is very different from the show when you first started, e.g.
	personal anecdotes are gone.
	No, they're not.
	Audio clips and jingles are now prevalent.
	Originally less than an hour a week.
	It is now four hours a week.
	And listeners are now asked to contribute cash.
	Is the show where you want it to be or you're planning more changes?
	The show just evolved, so we don't plan anything, although we do things individually that may or may not stick.
	In fact, if anything, we're always trying...
	It's more like...
	When I find something, and by the way, we'll get into this, but a lot of people send me stuff.
	That's how I get a lot of good information, and either that's good or I'll find something else that is good that relates to it.
	I'm thinking, oh man, I'm going to blow John away with this.
	Oh, he's going to love this when I play this.
	I can just hear what he's going to say.
	That's what I'm thinking.
	Yeah, there's that, and there's the other time, curiously, though, we both tend to be on the same stories, which is kind of interesting, but we had a show, I can't remember, it was about six or seven shows ago, where you had actually collected the clips that were all complimentary to my discussion, and it was like, because I didn't get some of these clips that I wanted, you had them, and I actually thought that was the most unbelievable show we've ever done, because it looked rigged.
	Yeah, it really flowed very nicely, and that happens from time to time.
	But yeah, I'm on board with the evolution.
	Absolutely nothing is planned.
	I have my own things.
	John has his things.
	We might send each other a link from time to time, and even then, usually the link doesn't get discussed, because we saw, well, whatever, it's over.
	But we have a couple of common interests of things that are funny, that we think are funny.
	Usually they have to do with mainstream media.
	I think that's the most fun is when we rag on mainstream media and pull it apart and simultaneously open people's eyes as to what's really going on on television.
	You know, that may have been triggered by the weenie in the butt episode.
	The family guy, because once we started mocking that model, we started looking at the media bitching about it, generally, on a higher plane, I believe, than the people at Fox have ever thought of.
	And we realized that we were entertaining ourselves, and we knew it was very valuable information, and we had the time.
	It's not like anyone can't do this, but most people work for a living.
	If you're to have a job at Goldman Sachs, and you're there until...
	You know, seven at night, and you have to get in early, whatever.
	And then you have to drink all day, which seems to be what the job's about.
	And watch strippers.
	You don't watch strippers.
	You don't have time to go and start digging around these stories to find the missing element or kind of the crazy connection.
	You just haven't got time to do it.
	And then, you know, the fact that the mainstream media doesn't do it, and they don't, just makes you wonder.
	So, I will say that there were two seminal moments when we had our equivalent of a meeting.
	And the one is when we spoke on the phone and said, you know what?
	This thing is real.
	This is really catching on.
	Let's do two shows a week.
	That I do remember.
	And that was like, oh, you know, something's happening here.
	This is really special.
	We should just do it.
	And then...
	I even recall you saying, okay, I've got to switch this around.
	I've got Cranky Geeks on Wednesday.
	I mean, this is when we started to really integrate this show into our daily schedule, into our lives, because actual work does go into it.
	I don't know about you, but every single day...
	Here's my system.
	I have labels set up in my email, like Gmail labels, and whenever I come across something that I think is interesting, or that someone sends me, or that I find, I'll email it and tag it with that label.
	So I have a label now for show 201.
	And then the night before the show, that is if I haven't found anything that showed up that I really needed to dig into, which of course can take hours of extra work and investigation, then I sit down and I start to assemble everything into a huge outline of stuff.
	And then I have to read everything, look at all the YouTube clips.
	And in the meantime, whenever I can, without...
	I'm destroying my relationship.
	I'm watching C-SPAN. C-SPAN 1, 2, and 3.
	I'll skim by HLN, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC just to see what they're doing, see if I find anything funny.
	I find myself watching less of Fox these days.
	It's just too annoying for me.
	But C-SPAN I find to be...
	Just, I love it so much.
	To me, that is, it is actual entertainment.
	And of course, C-SPAN has done a great job with their video library, because all you have to do is remember a line that someone said, which is typically what I'm looking for.
	You go to the archive, you type it in, search transcripts.
	It'll search the transcripts and come up with that actual piece of video and cue the video to the spot where the line is.
	I mean, it's amazing what they've done there.
	It's a very valuable resource.
	And you know, the thing is, on the weekend, they have this, what I really like, I mean, I like the regular C-SPAN, but on the weekend, they have this book TV. Yeah.
	They bring these various writers in, and many of them have written crazy books, one way or the other, right wing, left wing, everything.
	And they sit them down with a guy who really is a good conversationalist, or sometimes somebody that's in their same field of study.
	And they talk to them for an hour or more, Usually an hour, and it's like a whole hour, and basically it's like books on tape.
	I mean, you get pretty much the perspective you're looking for.
	You find everything out from this person.
	It's just amazing.
	It's much better than any talk show, Charlie Rose or any of these commercial things.
	Yeah, and what's nice about that is I kind of know what you're watching.
	So I know that I don't have to.
	And I must say, from time to time, it happens every other week, probably.
	Either you'll send me, sometimes I send you an SMS, a text message saying, dude, C-SPAN 3, now.
	Right?
	And then we'll both sit down and watch something at the same time.
	This has happened to me that I've been in the car And I get like, C-SPAN 2 now!
	I'm like, oh crap, but I luckily have the C-SPAN iPhone app and I'll listen to the audio.
	It's like, it's sickening.
	We're like the guys from the Muppets.
	It's a little crazy.
	Yeah, it is.
	But it's not as though, you know, and the funny thing is I don't think when we first began the show that we're going to get so heavily embedded into current events to this extreme.
	Like somebody says, you know, your show was about you guys going out to dinner and, you know, and it was, yeah, it was a lot of moments and we still discuss wine and food occasionally when it comes up.
	But instead of sitting around talking about our meal, that people can live vicariously through our steaks and Cabernet, that pretty much kind of just went by the wayside, because it wasn't...
	Well, the audience also drove that.
	And the only way to measure that is by feedback that you get and the growth of the audience.
	And it was pretty clear what people were interested in.
	And they were interested on our take of current events, were interested in our unveiling, if you will, and this is purely because of our experience, our unveiling of the bullshit and the, I would say, the deception of mainstream media.
	And I think it's helped a lot of people see things in a different light, and that's what the audience wants.
	John, you and I are both in the audience business at the end of the day.
	Yeah, and in fact, you can tell by the way people send you notes.
	I mean, yeah, every once in a while, somebody that was there from the original show, and they kind of like the fact that we have a wine tip once in a while, which I can still do, or there's some observation we made about the trends in food.
	That's fine, which is now different than me complaining on the earlier show, the show 200, about the raw milk issues.
	That's kind of a foodie thing.
	But the point is that the people that really got jacked up and the ones that are pretty much financing the show because they send in big contributions and say, wow, we like the way you deconstruct these stories, the way you tear them apart, the way you show us, me, as it were, the way you show me that I'm being led astray.
	It's very valuable for people to have some sense of understanding of what they're being bombarded with.
	So when did we start asking for donations?
	That began sometime in 2009.
	I believe we semi-seriously may have done something in late 2008.
	And the only reason I can say this is because I can look at the PayPal account since we did it as a PayPal thing.
	And we did it at the beginning, I think, with trepidation.
	Not complete trepidation, but I think you may have had a little more than I did, because I've always felt there was a model of direct support.
	And I was thinking about this.
	I have to keep thinking of different arguments, because the ones that do it the best are public broadcasting and...
	You're right.
	That's what it was.
	We were talking about that and then we were talking about PBS and I said, why do those dickheads who are clearly shills, not all and all the time, but why do they get away with this and why do people support that?
	It appears that we have a large number of people who like us the same way they either currently do or used to like public broadcasting.
	Right, and public broadcasting also has the issue with the fact that they have commercials, and we really played up a couple of clips that we developed, we found, about them admitting that they're underwriters.
	Let's play that one, because we can't play that enough.
	This was the president of PBS... NPR. Was it NPR? Yeah.
	Yes, NPR. Being asked about...
	Underwriters.
	Yeah, about their underwriters and the state of affairs, and here was her answer.
	Okay, moving on to money.
	How are NPR's corporate underwriting revenues holding up in the recession, and what about foundation grants?
	Two different stories.
	Underwriting is down.
	It's down for everybody.
	I mean, this is the area that is most down for us, is in sponsorship, underwriting, advertising, call it whatever you want.
	Right.
	Call it whatever you want.
	And then I think we started to open people's eyes.
	This is kind of the way it went.
	We started to open people's eyes about how it really worked.
	And people were like, wow, you know, Monsanto sponsors this.
	Archer Daniel Midland sponsors that.
	And we're like, well, okay, so how about the objective reporting about those companies?
	Well, there doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot of it.
	And I think a lot of people...
	This is maybe how it really started, John, and I'm just vague on it, but...
	Is people start to send us like $100 and say, well, this is what I would have normally spent on PBS, the National Treasure.
	I want to spend it on you.
	And I think that's where we said, oh, wait a minute.
	There's something here.
	Well, we definitely had, again, this is the problem with answering questions like this.
	We're brain dead.
	Yeah, we're idiots.
	No, it's an evolutionary show, and like with anything in evolution, just a model, it's very difficult to put your finger on a spot.
	I mean, we can do the weenie and the butt spot, and that had some influence, and we can point right to it.
	But the rest of it is always vague, because it just kind of evolved.
	We were actually very, you know, being an open source show, which is another idea that we decided to go with.
	In other words, we don't care if you steal the show.
	I actually do remember, I was in New York with Mickey, and it was winter, it must have been winter.
	And I remember I called you and I said, you know, hey, this model that we've been kind of, well, not really working on, but that has evolved, it seems to be working.
	We should really go for this.
	We should really try.
	And I think at that point I said, boy, I would love to do this full time.
	I would love to do nothing else but this.
	I enjoy it so much.
	Well, the model, as I remember, I was always for it from the get-go because I've always admired the model itself.
	I always admired the fact that you can get...
	If you give people what...
	It's like the Max Headroom thing where they had the direct numbers.
	The show was going downhill, the numbers would go down, and you could see it in real time.
	You can see if we're doing the right thing, if we're doing a good job.
	Directly.
	It's value for value.
	You can't go off the deep end.
	We can't turn the show into an analysis of 60s music, and that's all we talk about for two hours, and expect to get any money from anyone.
	So we're only doing it.
	At the same time, we obviously don't want to...
	To be pushed around by the audience, we have to lead them as opposed to just doing whatever they want.
	So you have to have some leadership.
	This is like a company that, you know, you don't focus group everything.
	Focus grouping shows you what they used to like.
	But if you want to move the show in new directions or try different things, you actually have to experiment with it.
	But you will get that feedback.
	You're going to get a pushback saying, no, you know, this sucks.
	Don't do that again, and then the donations go way down.
	So it's an interesting tightrope walk, but it's direct support from the listeners, and people have come up with all kinds of different complaints about it.
	Oh, you know, why do I have to spend $100?
	Because I can go see a movie for $50, and they put a lot of money into making those movies, and you guys don't put any money into making this show.
	There's this kind of weird kind of complaints about production costs I've been getting every once in a while.
	And I never had a real good retort for it, except, well, it's different.
	It's like you're paying for books on tape.
	It's like we're really competing with books on tape.
	We're not competing with Avatar.
	And...
	We're also competing with radio, but radio, you get 22 minutes an hour of action.
	Well, less.
	Radio is terrible.
	17 minutes of programming and 13 minutes of commercials.
	Make your choice.
	Right, and how much is your time worth?
	So I've used that argument, but then I also found another one, which I really haven't exploited on the show, because people in this production, well, it costs a lot of money to make a movie.
	What about a novel?
	Novels are one of the first businesses that are directly user-supported.
	Good point.
	You buy a book.
	Good point.
	And you read the book and you've already paid your money.
	Of course, unlike our show, the book you pay in advance for the book.
	And you pay in advance for the Avatar movie.
	You pay in advance for a lot of these things.
	We don't do that.
	We're more of the church model where if you don't like the sermon, you don't have to put anything in the coffers.
	But it's the same thing.
	Books are user-supported.
	There's no ads in a book?
	No.
	And once you get over the personal hurdle coming from mainstream...
	Where, by the way, we hate commercials.
	I've always hated commercials.
	I hate them.
	That's why the DVR is such a godsend.
	No, but I mean, just even as a creator of content, I'm like, oh, I've got to hit the commercial break.
	I've got to wait for the commercials.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, they're terrible.
	You've got to interrupt your flow.
	Watch one of these shows, anyone listening to this, on Fox or any place.
	And they get somebody in a really heated debate, but they're on a hard break.
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	I've seen this with Tom Brokaw and the president.
	And they've got some guy screaming in his ear, counting down the commercial, and the president's actually just saying something really interesting.
	It's annoying.
	It's very, very annoying as a creator to go through that.
	But then it was kind of weird, at least for me it was, you feel embarrassed to ask people for money.
	And there is a psychological hurdle.
	But once you're over that...
	You got over it pretty quickly.
	Yeah, it's easy sailing.
	It's like, hey, value for value.
	I had some pushback from the family.
	And I won't say who, but they know who they are.
	How can you bring yourself to begging for money for this?
	How can you do that?
	Can't you get some advertisers?
	I don't want any advertisers if I can get money directly from the listeners.
	I mean, why would I want that?
	Yeah, it screws up the product.
	It just ruins the product.
	I mean, there's nobody...
	And the thing is, most of the people have not...
	We've taken it...
	One of the reasons we do this show and we do this, the money, asking for money and support donations is because...
	Whatever you want to call it.
	It's because it gets us closer to the audience.
	It's actually a good, close connection.
	You know what you're getting for your money.
	At some point, it becomes a...
	It just makes you feel more honest.
	And there's another thing we did, which I know was my initiative, and I think it helped us in a number of ways, is we decided to stream it live when we do the show.
	And that did a number of things.
	One, it gave, at least me, I appreciate the instant feedback loop of the chat room.
	Now, I can't watch it all the time, but sometimes a punchline will come through, and they're always on a 25-second delay, so it's interesting how that works.
	But a punchline will come through or someone might drop a link in there.
	But I personally, even if I didn't have the chat room, just knowing that people are listening live at that moment gives me an energy that I've always loved doing things live.
	I'm not a big fan of recording.
	If I have to record something, it's got to be live to tape, like I do Daily Source Code, like you do Cranky Geeks, although that's streamed live as well now.
	I just want it live, live, live because then you can leave all the warts in there and all the crazy shit.
	And that actually makes it more interesting when it's not highly produced.
	And it also forces us to kind, you know, I think before we were doing it live, it's like, hey, what time should we do the show?
	Well, I got this, I got that.
	Now it's like...
	My schedule is Thursday morning, I get up at 6.30, I get up, and from then on out, it's no agenda.
	Sunday morning, 6.30, I get up, from then on out, it's no agenda.
	Yeah, I know I had the same thing.
	Occasionally, we've had to move the show to Wednesday night.
	We haven't had that in a long time.
	No, but we're going to have it next month because I have a travel thing that's interrupting both shows.
	Which brings me to...
	Let me finish one more thing about the donations.
	One of the things that when we went into the donation thing, we started asking for money, direct support from the listeners.
	This has never really been...
	I've been figuring this out because it's a form of marketing that interests me.
	But one of the things that people say, well, you can't make it.
	I'm sure you're starving to death and you can't do it.
	Why don't you get an advertiser, they always say.
	No one except us.
	And believe me, I haven't seen anything close.
	And there may be some religious programming that I'm not aware of.
	But nobody doing podcasting, professional-level, good-quality podcasting as we're doing, has taken it serious.
	Yeah.
	We are seriously, you know, we have programs.
	We came up with the night thing.
	We've got different kinds of...
	We also don't call it a tip jar.
	We don't work for tips.
	Yeah.
	That's bullshit.
	We do this.
	We're seriously doing this, and it's like, take it or leave it.
	This is the model we're working with.
	It's going to be a lot better.
	The product you're going to get is a lot better.
	If you get anything out of it, you get something out of it, you know, contribute.
	I mean, just the way...
	This is new.
	Do you feel the show serves as more than just a source of entertainment?
	If yes, what do you hope to accomplish?
	First of all, let me say, from my perspective, I absolutely see this as a form of entertainment.
	I hope everyone is entertained by our show.
	They have to be.
	If you're not entertained, we have blown it.
	There has to be a moment where...
	And entertainment comes in different ways.
	It can be funny, it can be dramatic, it can be sad, it can be frightening.
	Whatever emotion button we're hitting, it has to be entertainment.
	Otherwise, why listen?
	That would just be boring.
	I remember somebody sent us a link, said, well, there's a couple people that do a show like yours, and they sent us a link to somebody's show that was very much like ours.
	They deconstructed the news a bit.
	They tended not to have our perspectives, but they did a fairly decent job, and it was so dull.
	It was just like this academic...
	You can't get...
	It's just that the modern audience is the modern audience.
	And no matter how intellectual you might think you are, you will be better served by someone who feeds you information in a way that keeps your attention.
	And to keep your attention, you have to have an element of entertainment.
	Our personalities, generally speaking, I think, are the entertainment.
	Well, also, and I've only had this one...
	Well, in my humor, of course.
	Yes, obviously.
	I've only had this one other time in my career.
	Sometimes you just find these magical combinations, and it's not by design.
	You can't train for it.
	You can't go to school for it.
	It just happens, and you have these combos that just work.
	And this is one of those that just work.
	In fact, my biggest fear now, and I know what yours is, John, but my biggest fear is you're going to roll over and die one day, and the show will be over.
	I think it's 10 years at least now.
	And you're afraid I'm going to go crazy and leave Mickey and go off the deep end.
	I mean, I know what you're fear of.
	That's my thinking, yeah.
	I think that can happen any minute.
	Our pledge asks on Twitter, Mr.
	DeVorek, your campaign seems to have the momentum of a runaway freight train.
	Hey!
	There's the meme.
	Why are you so popular?
	I think we answered that question just now.
	Also, the No Agenda chat folks, one of the moderators, should be invited.
	They've donated a lot of their time.
	Well, they're invited to listen to the show when we're done with it.
	Next time, maybe we can do something more for them.
	This show is the first one a long time that we're not streaming live, but also this is a different type of show.
	We're just kind of...
	So let's answer the second part of that question, though.
	What do you hope to accomplish?
	What do you hope to accomplish, John, with this show?
	I think, and this is going to be, this sounds really, this is not going to sound good.
	Because it makes you sound, there's a kind of a, well you'll see.
	Let them eat cake.
	No, no, I think that we, I think, honestly believe that we're doing a serious public service.
	To bring people, generally people that are listening to the show.
	I've always believed this, even when I'm a writer.
	People always say, when I'm writing like in PC Magazine, when I was writing all those years in Inside Track, I always had a vision of what was I trying to accomplish and what I was trying to accomplish because I knew it would get me more readers.
	It's a selfish reason, by the way.
	I knew it would get me more readers.
	My concept was if somebody read my column And they're working in a cubicle.
	And my column was designed to give them an edge over the guy in the other cubicle who wasn't reading my column.
	And I've always believed that this is the value proposition, a phrase I hate.
	But it's always in the back of my mind.
	I'm trying to give people some edge over the people who aren't paying attention to me.
	Oh, no.
	This is basically, we want you, the audience, to be able to get laid because you sound smarter listening to us.
	Exactly.
	I mean, at the end of the day, isn't that it?
	Or a job, or a promotion.
	Or anything.
	It can enrich your life because you had that one little bit of information that someone went, Oh, that guy said something interesting.
	Oh, she has an interesting take on stuff.
	And for me, it's that...
	Maybe it's just that.
	I'll tell you what it is.
	I think I was born to do this.
	I think everyone is born to do something, and it took me a long time with a lot of detours, and I've been counting down the hits, and I've pretended to run companies with varying degrees of success, but basically riding off of fame and fortune, which in itself is interesting to have a perspective from that angle.
	But I love this.
	I so love it.
	People say, man, you work really hard.
	We have house guests, and they'll be like, my God, Adam's always on that thing, and he's editing, and he's recording stuff.
	I love it, and it doesn't even feel like work.
	I love this.
	I love what we do.
	I love what I do.
	And that's also completely selfish, but if it gets you laid, hey.
	No, actually, good works generally are selfish at some level because you...
	You know, if you think you're helping somebody, sometimes that's selfish because you get a good feeling from it, and that's a selfish thing.
	Although it wouldn't be defined as such by anybody in their right mind.
	So let's talk about the open source model for just a second.
	Well, wait, before we do that, since you kind of brought it up, I want to bring in Simon Smith's question from Twitter, which says, When you offer relationship advice on no agenda, my wife doesn't react well to the hookers and blow angle.
	Really?
	She should try it.
	What does that mean?
	I don't know.
	Some people just...
	I hear two things I hear.
	One is people don't like the hookers and blow because it puts some people off Okay, that's just who we are, I guess, and we find it amusing.
	I don't think, John, I've never done blow, and I certainly have never done the combination of hookers and blow at the same time.
	So you admit to doing hookers?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Like, you've never done hookers.
	I don't discuss these things in public.
	By the way, the hooker situation is a cycle.
	And the 30s, the 70s, lots of hookers.
	And so we're going into a new cycle of hookers.
	Probably starting around 2012.
	Let me put it this way.
	I am not against hookers.
	I think that there's a lot of bad stuff that happens in the sex industry.
	But there's a lot of women who support their children and themselves.
	And if that's what they want to do and it can be done in a safe manner, power to you.
	I grew up in Amsterdam.
	I saw it working quite well, thank you.
	The problem is when it gets driven underground.
	But anyway, that's a whole separate show.
	So now what was your point?
	The second one...
	People say, well, I try to help people listen to this show, but then they hear the opening and the whole in the morning thing, and they think it's some BS top 40 weenie in the butt show, and then they don't listen.
	I don't know what we can do about that.
	Nothing, but I actually like it, because once you get over that hump...
	Then you can get kind of sucked in.
	So, no, that's also a mask.
	That's probably important.
	Can you imagine, like, some meeting going on at the NSA or the CIA, and they're like, yeah, we've got to get rid of these guys.
	I hear bad things about that Kareem Dvorak.
	Let's listen to the show.
	And they hear this whole in the morning bit, and like, no, that can't be anything.
	It definitely puts people off.
	Or maybe Echelon.
	You know, Echelon is sniffing our show and they're like, oh, this can't be interesting.
	Just what you said, the guy goes into a meeting and says, these guys, they're subversive, these two guys.
	And the guy says, really?
	Well, let me hear the show.
	And then they start playing it with that opening.
	It's Crackball and Buzzkill.
	In the morning, in the morning.
	Get the hell out of my office, you crackpot!
	Get out of here!
	By the way, that is, now that you mention it, I purposely love, and I don't know who came up with the moniker, but I love being called the crackpot because it is the ultimate shield.
	The ultimate.
	Because some of the stuff we say, and I think we get pretty close to the truth on a lot of issues, I would rather people say, ah, he's just a conspiracy theorist, he's just a crackpot, because that will save me from getting killed.
	We've talked about it.
	Yeah, and I think it's a good theory.
	And it's a likable theory.
	We shot to track down the guy who coined Crackpot and Buzzkill.
	It was an email I got.
	We mentioned on the next show, we mentioned it, and you thought it was great to be called the Crackpot.
	Yeah, I love it.
	And so then our artwork started to have Crackpot and Buzzkill put on it, so it just reiterated the whole thing.
	So now, please, let's move into that open source nature of the show.
	So two amazing things which are a part of the model, a part of the openness and the freedom and the support through donations, is we don't own anything.
	We don't, well, I mean, I guess technically if you really looked at it, we do, but we don't.
	Got a microphone.
	Yeah, but the show is whatever it is.
	And we have people cutting this up, splicing it, putting it into all kinds of, you know, making ringtones, making trance music out of it.
	But we also have people who create things.
	So a lot of our jingles, by the way, we could use a lot more.
	We love them, but we are very critical.
	We don't just use everything people send in.
	A lot of people send in stuff that we just feel is not good enough.
	We have artwork, and we have two main artists, Sir Randy Asher and Sir Paul T. These guys have jobs.
	Who knows what they do?
	They spend their time.
	They create...
	Art work for us for almost every single show.
	Now there's no agendaart.com where people can drop art and we've used the art from different artists.
	If anything, after every show, people should know we have a discussion.
	So the first thing we say is, what do we think of the show?
	And there's been a couple times we've said, well, that sucked.
	And we're pretty brutal with each other, although John never agrees with my criticism of him.
	If I say, well, you sucked on that, it's like, no, that was really good.
	And if you criticize me, you're usually right, and I just take it like a man.
	Ha!
	So we talk about that, and then we talk about...
	Yeah, essentially it's a post-mortem that most publications do.
	Yeah, then we'll say, what do we call the show?
	So we think about what will get the best SEO results, what will people be searching?
	We want all those accidental hits.
	And then we have to choose from the artwork.
	And that is sometimes the hardest part because it's so good we don't want to have one guy put off over the other guy because they both sent in something great.
	That's a hard choice sometimes.
	Yeah, it's amazing.
	And there's other artists waiting in the wings that contribute on an occasional basis.
	We have some tremendous support from these guys.
	And then, you know, Asher set up his own t-shirt shop through, I don't know what mechanism, and we help him out.
	Noagendastuff.com Stuff.
	And we have all these guys, and we've encouraged it, and we don't have our name trademarked.
	Somebody came up with an email the other day that said, I think I've got a good promotional idea.
	Why don't you trademark in the morning, and then every time you hear anybody saying it on any show whatsoever, send them a cease and desist order, and then they'll promote you, and you'll get free publicity.
	Although funny.
	It's actually a funny idea, but it's not our model at all.
	No, it sounds like work, and that's one thing we hate.
	We don't want to do any work.
	Yeah, we actually don't want to do anything.
	We just want to do this show.
	We don't want to have any extra work.
	We don't want to do any extra promotion stuff that involves leaving a computer.
	Yeah, and I had these other guys, the guys at Mevio, come up to me.
	In the morning, shut up, slave!
	Well, that's one of the things that's changed.
	We're back live, as it were.
	We have exuded from show 200.5, and now we're back in the show 425.
	Yes, indeed.
	In retrospect, if anyone wants to know.
	And I think the shut up slave thing gave it away.
	Well, there's a lot of stuff that is new jingle-wise, obviously.
	And by the way, people can find these if you go to nashownotes.com.
	The top link is all the No Agenda sites, I think, is what it's called.
	And you tap on that, you'll find an actual link to all the jingles, which is updated on the fly.
	So it's automatically updated on that website if you're looking for any of the stuff that we use, being part of our open source model, as you heard.
	And you can also go to the wiki page, No Agenda wiki page, which we usually don't mention that much.
	Why are you sending people there?
	It's not quite contemporary, but it's got enough stuff that it's, I think, a good intro to the show.
	I tell people to go there.
	Really?
	This is like...
	Really?
	You tell people to...
	Oh, yeah, for the background.
	I see.
	Influences.
	Oh, okay.
	That makes sense.
	But what I'm missing here is our height...
	Yeah, I know, we bitch and mow.
	No, actually, actually, no, no.
	If you click through to my wiki page, height, 5'17".
	I love it.
	Oh, somebody's up, just you have a fan.
	And you are 5'13 on your website, on your wiki page.
	Come on.
	That's cool, man.
	We do want to remind people, by the way, that we're going to thank all our executive producers and associate executive producers when Adam gets back from his wedding, which will be the Sunday.
	What is the date on that?
	What's our next live show?
	Yeah, good question.
	Hold on a second.
	So the wedding is on Monday, and then we fly back on Wednesday, July 18th, And Thursday I'll be back in the saddle.
	So the 19th will be the...
	Yeah, one short week from now.
	We want to remind people that just because we're doing...
	We're actually doing this show above and beyond the call of duty.
	We just take off the week.
	But we want to remind people that we still need support because the same bills come up and the same problems come up that require...
	Well, this is the one...
	Some financing.
	So please, go to Dvorak.org slash NA. Listening to...
	Well, let me kick off with the first question.
	And we asked people to send in emails to either John or myself or both of us.
	And we were very specific about, you know, how to...
	How to address your email, what you had to put in the subject line.
	And not everyone did it, so if you didn't put in...
	No, one, three guys did it on mine.
	Everyone else has questions, show question, question show 200.6.
	Yeah, I got the show question, pound, hashtag, pound, number, sign, pound, second half.
	It's so simple and no one can do it.
	But Elliot Gardner asked right off the bat two questions.
	I'll do them out of order.
	Question two first.
	Why did you choose Dvorak.org slash NA? Well, when we started off, I quickly put up a site to collect some sponsorships, not sponsorships, but producer donations and contributions.
	And I have this access to my own site, so I just put it there.
	And it became branding.
	It was easy.
	And then we've had other alternative sites, and then somebody came up with this damn jingle, which became like it stuck me with this.
	I mean, we cannot leave, because the jingle's so good.
	Play it.
	Dvorak.org slash N-A. And people have said, oh, it's stuck in my brain.
	I had to go there.
	So we've kept it as kind of just a throwback.
	Of course, it's not the easiest spelling thing to remember.
	Right.
	Dvorak is hard to spell.
	It would be better if we did something.
	It's kind of one of those, it's kind of like too late now.
	I don't know.
	Now, I do have to say, listening to show 200.5 there...
	So a lot of big things changed in my life since we did that show.
	The number one thing is I left my day job.
	I left my paycheck since then and have been living solely off of my half of the no agenda support that we get from our producers, executive producers, and our monthly donors.
	That, of course, led immediately to me moving out of the state of California to the cheaper state of Texas.
	Wisely.
	Yeah.
	Because the variables are a bit too much, to be perfectly honest.
	There's no way you can live in California doing this and then think, well, maybe I'll make rent this month.
	Maybe I'll make the damn electricity bill, which is really the worst.
	And the personal income tax.
	It's 10% off the top.
	Yeah, which is going to 13.5 or whatever.
	Yeah, so all of that was...
	And besides the fact that we really, you know, after our Hot Pockets tour, which was another new initiative that took place after show 200.5...
	We wound up in Austin saying, wow, this is so much nicer as a place to live.
	But really, financially, it made a lot of sense.
	And I think it's also, in many ways, helped the show by being in a different milieu.
	Yeah, I think it's important that the two of us are not living in the same building kind of thing.
	Well, also, not just not living in the same building, but, you know, what kind of culture does Hollywood give you, really?
	I mean, it's just, you know, yeah, you might have a few extra celebrity show business-like stories, but there's, you know, it's...
	Yeah, but who needs it?
	Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	So that's one of the main things.
	The other main thing...
	I was going through this explaining how I did my show prep.
	Wow, that has changed dramatically in two years' time.
	It went from tagging messages in Gmail...
	Which was a good idea at the time.
	I think we have a pretty kick-ass system.
	We have show notes that are very expanded.
	We've got the No Agenda News Network, noagendanewsnetwork.com.
	We've got a lot of stuff that supports the show, which a lot of people contribute to, actually.
	I'd like to thank those producers who are continuously dropping in interesting story leads from around the world, which is really the critical...
	The critical nature of what the network does, because you can start to see the similarities between a story that's being posted from Australia to Gitmo Nation Deutschland to something that's happening in the States.
	And then you get an overview, if you will, of how we're being managed as human resources experts.
	Yeah, no, I think our audience is great.
	I mean, if it wasn't for the audience and the producers, we wouldn't have a show.
	I mean, obviously we wouldn't have a show, but, I mean, we really wouldn't have a show.
	Well, also, the length of the show has changed.
	I think when we were doing 200.5, we were trying to stick to an hour and a half, and we'd usually go over.
	And these days, we're never shy of two and a half hours, which we do twice a week.
	Which is five hours a week, which is, I think, valuable to commuters because a typical commute is about a half hour.
	You can do the whole two shows in a week of driving.
	I still believe most of our audience are commuters.
	Where did you listen to 200.5?
	I listened to it on the computer.
	Oh, I listened to it in the car.
	I tried to really do it.
	Well, I used to do it on a computer for one reason.
	I wanted to take notes on it.
	I do have some notes.
	Okay.
	You know, opening jingle, we make it look easy.
	That was something in there.
	A lot of self-reflection.
	Some of it's gone away.
	We did talk about the No Agenda name.
	We don't really know the absolute perfect genesis.
	Noise gate silence there.
	I noticed this.
	You mentioned about it, about the noise gate.
	And then you said we have a moment of silence every so often.
	You're talking about the noise gate.
	My note says, missed gag.
	When you said we have a moment of silence, I sure said, yeah, after that last joke.
	There's just opportunities.
	Yeah, I also heard, in comparison, we've gelled even more as a team.
	Oh, here it comes.
	The fact of the blather is...
	This is on Skype, so there's a delay.
	And at that point, we're pretty well accustomed to it.
	But when John says something and I've got to hit a button, or if we're going back and forth in a dialogue, there is a delay to be reckoned with, so you're not stepping on each other all the time.
	And I think we're doing better.
	You tend to hit the cues pretty well, except I've noticed that over the last couple of weeks with this wedding hanging over your head.
	Oh, it's gotten worse?
	You've sucked.
	And it's the wedding.
	This is the problem.
	This is like sports, you know?
	If you have the emotional state of the participants, it really makes a difference in the quality of the timing, mostly, of the show.
	In other notes, I've also noticed I put down, no longer handing you DVDs.
	You made some point about that.
	Oh, yeah.
	That's a good point.
	You used to hand me DVD. Well, we used to...
	Well, I had just left San Francisco at that point, not long before, so we kind of saw each other, which of course also plays into the reason why, you know, where there was less and less food and wine talk of us having a dinner or a meal together and talking about it, there's none, because we virtually have not seen each other for...
	I've seen you maybe once in two years?
	In person?
	Twice?
	Twice maybe.
	Right, and you didn't stay in Los Angeles long enough for me to get down there.
	Yeah.
	In other words, you're only there for two years.
	And I also noticed the three shows a week talk disappeared.
	Right.
	Well, yeah, because we're covering...
	We're doing three shows a week in two shows.
	We're doing five hours.
	We're talking three shows a week.
	We're doing an hour and a half.
	It would have been an hour and a half, three hours, 4.5 hours.
	We'd actually do more.
	We do not clue each other so much on C-SPAN like we used to.
	And you mentioned that on the 200.5 where I'd send you an email or a text and say, hey, go turn on C-SPAN right now, blah, blah, blah.
	We don't do that.
	We stop doing that.
	Do you...
	I see...
	I read your columns, most of them.
	I see your...
	The X3 show I don't catch all the time.
	You know, I have the RSS feed for Dvorak.org slash blog.
	Do you ever follow any of what I'm tweeting or linking to?
	I follow everything you tweet.
	Really?
	Yeah.
	But you don't follow...
	Actually, I go on Twitter about four times a day.
	Yeah, I've seen you active.
	But you don't...
	How about Knowage and the News Network?
	Are you there?
	I go on it every so when I remember to go on it.
	For some reason, I've not made a habit.
	I think it's a terrific resource, though, because every time I go on it, there's a lot of good stuff, but I fear you're going to pick it anyway.
	That's true.
	It's kind of fun to get caught by surprise.
	Also, the production values of the show, I think, have improved a little bit.
	It's outstanding, well-produced, one of the best-produced shows.
	I think we deserve an award, or you do.
	Paul T. and Randy Asher are gone.
	Yeah, I had that written down too.
	There's a lot of names that I do recognize, but there's some names that are definitely out.
	And it's okay.
	I hope they're listening.
	I have no idea.
	We just haven't heard from them.
	They both have real jobs now, and they were doing the art when they were between work, I believe.
	But we have so many good artists that they're missed, but they're not completely missed.
	And we have, and I have to say, you know, we've started for the past month or so, which is really way too late, but now I'm just writing it down and, you know, therefore it's harder for me to forget to thank the artist as a credit on the show, but we're thanking the artist who did the previous episode's work.
	Because they are really, the artists are the unsung heroes.
	And this is your theory, how important the art is.
	I mean, it really is incredibly important.
	Particularly if you look at iTunes, a lot of people listen to the show on iTunes or on their iPhone or some kind of iOS device.
	It just looks beautiful.
	You look down on our list.
	Art adds a dimensionality to everything and I think is very important.
	The reason we get the art the way we do, we get so much of it because most artists, people with the soul of an artist, they tend to appreciate being appreciated because nobody appreciates them, generally speaking.
	What do you do?
	Nobody realizes how important it is.
	Seriously, it's shameful.
	Shameful, I say.
	One question that came in quite a bit is, what is your problem with the chat room?
	Who, me?
	Yeah, a lot of people wanted to know.
	Why is John such a dick about the chat room?
	I think I'm paraphrasing here, but I think that's the general consensus of the question.
	I think it's a distraction for me, personally.
	I think it should be dogged, and I'm glad you do it, because the chat room is a good feedback mechanism.
	It's kind of like the Greek chorus.
	You know, somebody's in the background saying stuff that you need to hear, and somebody needs to listen.
	But I don't think we both need to be listening, because it's very distracting.
	And when I'm on Leo's show, I'm in the chat room, and often I lose completely...
	I lose myself into the chat room.
	And then the chat room that we have is a mean-spirited group.
	No, they're not.
	They're not a mean-spirited.
	No, that's not true.
	Maybe I'm wrong.
	I should go back and revisit.
	And I got kicked out once.
	There it is, ladies and gentlemen.
	He got kicked out.
	That's the problem.
	Take that from my own chat room.
	There it is.
	That's the problem.
	And I just want to take the opportunity to thank Mr.
	Oil, Sir Gitmo Slave, and Void Zero, who are always keeping...
	I mean, the chat room, that's never gone down as far as I know.
	They also keep the stream going, and that is all highly appreciated what those guys do for us.
	A couple other things...
	Oh, let's see.
	We have some failed efforts we should probably mention once in a while.
	Nap for Humanity was one of them that came and went.
	The Red Book is new.
	Oh, that's right.
	It is new.
	You're right.
	The Red Book is new, and the Red Book is real.
	We still don't...
	You know, the guy who told me...
	It was one of our producers that gave us Crackpot and Buzzkill, and it was, like, way early.
	And I... Because it was so long ago, and I have so much email in my archives, I can't find the reference to...
	I don't even remember who did that first.
	Yeah, it was a guy who wrote in, and I brought it up on the show, and we thought it was hilarious.
	And then the artist immediately put it up, and that was...
	It's the template now, yeah.
	Here, Adam, given the technology background of both you and John, would you guys ever consider a tech podcast?
	I miss John's Cranky Geeks and would gladly be a founding producer for a weekly tech show.
	Twitter's great, but you guys are better.
	And I'm not reading this out gloating.
	I think it's a valid question.
	And before you answer...
	I would say that we rarely bring up tech-related discussions because I know typically that you're going to be on Twit two to three times out of the month, and I don't want to detract from what you're doing there.
	But sometimes we do bring something up if it's kind of relevant.
	But I think most of it just doesn't really matter to everyone's life.
	That's not to say that I wouldn't love doing that with you.
	I just don't know if we could actually do it.
	I have a feeling something would suck if we did another show.
	Yeah, I agree.
	I think people, if they like what we're doing with this show, which is very unique, very unique, nobody really is doing anything quite like this.
	The tech thing, everybody's doing one.
	Yeah, it's true.
	And it's like, oh, let's jump in on the tech thing and do another tech show.
	And it's like, ah, I've done tech shows.
	I'll do some more video tech shows maybe.
	I mean, the X3 show's over.
	Generation X3's still going on, but that's not even tech anymore.
	So essentially the only tech show I do, I write about tech every day.
	I don't really need to be doing more tech than I do.
	And it's not that enjoyable and it's not that interesting.
	What we're doing is extremely unique and often fascinating.
	And also, yeah.
	You know, tech is what it is.
	It's tech.
	Oh, Intel's got a new chip.
	Oh, stop the presses.
	And also, another thing is that, you know, and we've always adhered to this model, which, you know, we've discussed many times, is...
	We really try to converse as little as possible, and that's not even email, certainly no phone calls at all in between shows.
	And even before we hit the record button on today's show, we're like, yeah, so it's Saturday, just so you know.
	Tomorrow is Sunday when we're doing the actual episode 424.
	We're like, it's going to fuck up tomorrow's show.
	Because you just know it isn't.
	The rhythm's off.
	It's like now we're talking to each other.
	Yeah, but you're also...
	Self-packing to go to Holland to get married tomorrow.
	We're going to do a show with that hanging over your head.
	No, I have the automatic self-packing suitcase.
	That part is good.
	But I was out all day running errands.
	Believe me.
	Of course.
	It's what it is.
	But you know what?
	I'm happy.
	I'm marrying the woman I love.
	Come on.
	Give me a break.
	And by the way, pre-discussing the show...
	With Miss Mickey, which I often do, I'll try, like, I couldn't do this in my previous life, but with Miss Mickey, I said, let me run this by and see what you think.
	And if she starts to roll her eyes, then I'm like, okay.
	She was very specific.
	The only thing she really wanted to convey is that she really, really loves you.
	Ah!
	As she means it.
	And she's bummed that you're not at the wedding.
	And I told her...
	Did you tell her that you told me not to go?
	That's exactly what I said.
	I said, I don't go.
	It's a pain in the ass.
	I didn't tell her how adamantly you agreed.
	I had the tickets.
	I was ready to go.
	In fact, you said, yeah, man, you know how many times I've canceled the trip?
	You went into this whole thing about how you've canceled trips as you were on the way to the airport.
	Come on.
	Come on.
	That's true.
	I will cancel a trip on the way to the airport.
	Molly Wood's coming.
	I've done it so many times.
	When Mimi will say, well, yeah, get out of here, and then I say, screw it, I'm not going, I'm going to go back to bed.
	It's like a routine, such as I said, that nobody that knows me is ever surprised.
	I mean, if I'm booked for a speech someplace and I'm getting paid money, no, I'm going.
	Right.
	And how often does that happen?
	Things I don't have to go to, I would generally not go.
	Anyway.
	Molly Wood is coming.
	It depends on what time the flight is, too.
	If it's like a new flight, eh, I have to take it or leave it.
	But at 7 in the morning, sometimes I'll talk myself out of it.
	I'll say it again.
	Molly Wood is coming.
	Oh, well that's nice.
	She'll have fun.
	She looks Dutch.
	Another thing I was going to mention, that I recognize a lot of the donor names from 200.5, and a lot of them are still donors.
	And as I was kind of, you know, reminiscing driving around Austin here, thinking about, you know, how has the show grown?
	And you probably, you know, we had Eric doing numbers for us.
	I presume you don't have numbers like we had on the last show about, you know, where the most donations come in from what countries.
	Yeah.
	So we've increased the length of the show, the amount of the show by probably close to 30% on a weekly basis, or just in general 30%.
	But the people who listen to the show, and the percentage of them who are donors, or not as they themselves have self-imposed boners, I don't think it's increased that much.
	I mean, it's still a lot of the same people, which is, of course, super appreciated.
	But I don't know.
	Did you get that feeling at all?
	That it was like, hmm, have we really...
	That was the moment where I'm like, we've grown in so many areas, but it seems like a lot of the same people are still donating.
	Yeah, we are on this.
	It needs to be grown.
	Well, it's not the growing of the audience.
	It's not the growing of the audience.
	I was bitching and moaning about the fact that we don't have enough listeners, but we...
	We have a lot of loyal listeners, but we also have some people that bail.
	And I get that from the MailChimp does a lot of stats when I send out the mailings every week.
	And they tell you how many people drop from the mailing list and they sometimes put a snide remark in.
	It's still a very small number compared to most mailings.
	We probably lose 10 people a week.
	Well, picking up 20 or 30 or 40 or 50.
	But I think my point is that there's still a lot of people who we haven't done a good enough job for, I guess, that they are donating.
	Yeah, yeah, that is a problem.
	Or they feel this.
	Or they're just freeloaders.
	I mean, there are people that don't get it.
	They don't want to donate because it's just against their religion.
	I have no idea.
	Yeah.
	Let's see.
	Do you have any more questions?
	Yeah, I got one here.
	This is from Lori in Kansas.
	I'd like to know how long John and Mimi homeschooled their kids.
	Yeah.
	It was the primary motivation because this public school, even though we were in good public schools in Albany and Port Angeles, the kids were amenable.
	So we homeschooled Jay for...
	Five years.
	Jay happens to be listening.
	She just put up the big five.
	And then she decided...
	Well, at least she can count.
	That's good.
	The homeschooling is good for something.
	Yeah, homeschoolers win all the awards, by the way, for these competitions.
	Any regrets?
	No, none whatsoever.
	And she's a straight-A student, got into college, no problem, and, you know, can't ask for much more than that.
	And the thing about private schooling, I tell everyone who's interested in thinking about it, the child has to sign up.
	In other words, they have to be on board.
	If they're not on board...
	You know, so you can throw it in their face.
	You said you wanted to do this.
	Not that I would ever do that.
	But they have to be on board.
	Once they're on board, then it's easy.
	If they don't want to be homeschooled and they want to go to school, it's a different story.
	I have a question.
	Are you still doing the show there without headphones?
	Are you still listening to me on the speaker?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's amazing to me.
	I first worked at...
	One time I was up in Vancouver on a radio show.
	Bill Good, he was the big talk show guy in Vancouver, Canada.
	And I was writing for the Vancouver Sun.
	And you go in there and he was...
	And this was the way it was.
	He had no headphones.
	He was the host.
	You know, most of these radio guys, they like to modulate their voice so they put the headphones on.
	They can hear themselves.
	That would be me.
	Exactly.
	You know, and...
	But he was...
	No, it was all free air.
	And I was thinking...
	And it worked pretty well and sounded good.
	And then over time, I just got sick of having those headphones on.
	And even when I started doing Leo's Twitch show, I used headphones at first because these Heil mics.
	Right.
	Really, you can really modulate the heck out of it.
	You can really sound great with a Heil mic.
	Hey, baby.
	And then I just gave up.
	Yeah, that's interesting.
	I mean, I can't do it really because I need to hear the exact mix that's going out, you know, and just everything because you have a large, you know, high percentage that I'd screw it up.
	Yeah, well, when I do the Horowitz show, I have to wear headphones because I'm running everything through the, I have to, I just have to.
	Another question, do you have like the, is it really light in your room?
	I've never seen your studio slash office.
	Yeah, it's very light.
	You know, I turn off all the lights.
	I got a little, you know, like dimly lit lighting above the desk area and everything else is off.
	I like it really dark.
	Ah.
	Interesting.
	Yeah, no, I don't like it dark at all.
	Huh.
	Hi, John.
	Since the beginning, this is from Greg S. Since the beginning of No Agenda...
	Have you changed your mind on any of Adam's crackpot topics in the second half of the show, such as 9-11, UFOs, moon bases, Stargates, vaccines, and other conspiracies?
	I know it's not a great question, but I think listeners would like to know the answer.
	I've cc'd Adam just in case he wants to chime in on this one.
	Greg Steerly.
	I'm a little more liberal on some of the things, namely the 9-11 thing, because the World Trade Center is 7, and other things that I've seen, read, and heard, so there's something fishy going on.
	So I'm a little more amenable to that.
	The flying saucer thing, not really.
	Stargate, no way.
	In Leicester, on the other side, I do believe it's possible there's a Stargate, and on the other side are more fish.
	So, except for that, fish.
	I got a lot of...
	I got a lot of questions about the so-called second half of the show.
	Where's all the crazy second half of the show stuff?
	I generally don't report on things that I don't believe in myself.
	Sometimes you can't just go making it up like, oh, it's second half of the show.
	I need some bullshit item to throw at people.
	I don't do that.
	But also, as I was thinking about it, The world has gone so crazy since our 200.5 episode that the second half of the show starts at the opening of the show.
	Things are so nuts sometimes.
	I sit here and go like, I can't believe this is actually taking place.
	Yeah, the second half of the show is essentially the Homeland Security.
	Yeah, exactly.
	I mean, yeah, I've noticed this too, but I... There's not that much...
	I mean, once in a while, maybe once every couple of months, there'll be some sighting or there'll be some really good video on YouTube of a thing flying across the sky in China that can't be verified or unverified.
	And it's an interesting point of information, but there's no real story there.
	The second half of the show is not what it used to be.
	Well, no, but this, you know, it's like...
	No.
	But that's where the stuff belongs if we go, you know, we've had some a couple days ago.
	A lot of, you know, probably there's been an increase in, thanks to YouTube, UFO videos and crop circles and strange stuff.
	But, you know, hello, this is radio slash audio.
	That just doesn't work.
	You know, what am I going to do?
	Hey, listen to this audio of people going, oh, I'm on a couple of this.
	You don't want to hear that.
	Why does it play the audio of the guys who saw the double rainbow?
	We played that.
	That was worth it.
	That was a good one.
	Oh, man.
	Hey, man.
	Oh, yeah.
	What other...
	Have you got any questions?
	Any more questions?
	Well, yeah.
	Whatever happened to the no agenda library, which is Gardner's other question.
	I don't know.
	Well, see, we don't maintain this stuff, obviously.
	Yeah, a lot of this stuff is not for us.
	Bentley asks, how many people have screwed up the subject line?
	Most of them, okay.
	David Firione, one of you guys...
	Oh, here's one.
	Oh, yeah, this is a good one.
	If the donor gave you guys a large amount, $100,000, would you realistically let him or her have any influence on the show?
	What about naming rights?
	If I signed a contract to pay you guys X hundred thousand dollars a year, would you rename the show?
	No agenda presented by Vaginel, for example.
	Hmm.
	I think we did have a thing that we will give it will give naming rights to Monsanto for five million dollars.
	Well, you know, here's the bottom line.
	First of all, not having advertisements is not because we just can't get advertisers or that most advertisers would shy away from many of the topics that we discuss.
	But it's really about influence and the automatic compromise that you make.
	So regardless of who, what, where, whatever, I would not put in a contract saying, I won't speak badly of vaginal.
	That wouldn't go.
	Yeah, but that's usually not in the contract.
	That's always assumed.
	Well, then we'd have to have our money up front.
	We're not doing it.
	There's two things.
	One, it's not going to happen.
	That's why we need individual donors.
	And two, it's not going to happen.
	It's not going to happen and it's not going to happen.
	Those are the two main reasons.
	Really not going to happen.
	The main reason we're not going to do it is because it's just not going to happen.
	We've set up the show so it won't happen.
	It's actually predestined to happen.
	Nobody could possibly deal with sponsoring the show.
	If somebody really liked the show and they felt obliged to produce it, they would know enough about the show to just give us the money.
	Exactly.
	There's $100,000.
	Yeah, we'd take that and we'd give an executive producer...
	Well, we'd give you more.
	We'd give you like a...
	We'd have Barony for sure.
	Yeah, sure.
	Definitely.
	Definitely.
	I, for one, personally, there's not a day, I think, that doesn't go, man, probably once in a while, but so often I think, wow, how awesome is this that we're doing?
	I'm always on because I can't disappoint.
	We've got to continuously do a good show because if we phone it in, so to speak, or if we just start to suck, then I'll be looking for a job.
	Clayton Mayring asks, how did the two of you come together to start this show?
	That is explained in the 200.5.
	You should be listening to that.
	So that's already been explained.
	Here's one.
	Chad Johnson says, Hi, Adam.
	Leo and I would love to have you on the show this weekend.
	Are you available at 3 p.m.
	Pacific on Sunday?
	No.
	It's bad timing.
	It's bad timing.
	I'm getting married.
	I'm leaving.
	Second time.
	I don't know who's on the show this time.
	I'm not going to be on it.
	Next week I'll be on it.
	Duh.
	That's why they're doing a Hail Mary.
	Hey, it's Saturday.
	Who can we find?
	Pink Curry.
	Yeah, well tell me getting married and that'll be that.
	You got any others or we'll get back to the show and then wrap it up for 425?
	Yeah, we drop back into the show.
	There's another, what is there, probably like another half hour left or so, I think?
	Yeah, about 40 minutes.
	Okay.
	And we'll be back to wrap it up.
	So back to May 17th, 2010 with the continuation of episode 200.5.
	A couple of questions from Sir Troy Walters.
	I just want to go down the list and make sure we didn't miss anything.
	How did you come up with promotions like the Nighthoods?
	The Nighthood thing, by the way, I will take credit for that and I'll tell you why.
	Although I think we discussed it, I think you're the one that probably pushed the idea.
	Probably the name of a knighthood is probably my contribution.
	Well, the knighthood thing, and I'll tell you, one day, and I've said this, I've done this with everybody who knows me who will have heard this probably at one time or another, and I know I ran it past Adam.
	Every time some American, and I think it's supposed to be illegal to receive a knighthood from the queen, but they do.
	Anyway, every time somebody says, what's so special about England that they're granting knighthoods?
	Why don't we grant knighthoods?
	Why can't we just grant knighthoods?
	Why can't anybody, why can't Ford Motor Company grant knighthoods?
	What difference does it make?
	Yeah, that's good.
	So ours are just as good as the Queen's.
	I think so, and I think we have a better group, that's for sure.
	The Knights that have been on our list, they're fantastic people, every one of them.
	I have a plan, by the way, of making a night iPhone app that will only be for nights.
	And it'll be limited for a number of reasons, but it'll only be for nights.
	And it'll be like our communication model, like a network, a night network.
	Oh, that's a good idea.
	Yeah, I think it'll be kind of fun.
	And like a bat signal.
	I still want a bat signal.
	We're going to need it one of these days.
	Well, we've got a lot of professional people in the night hoods.
	We don't have a doctor.
	We have a dentist.
	Do we have a lawyer?
	Oh, you know, that's a good question.
	We need a lawyer.
	That's what you need, right?
	You need a doctor.
	We need a lawyer.
	We need a butcher.
	Yes.
	Hell yeah.
	A farmer.
	We need someone to get a farm.
	What drives the new promotions?
	That's a good question.
	It depends on how you interpret it, of course.
	And I will say, all the emails, promotion ideas, John does all of that.
	I do the production of the show.
	John does all of that stuff.
	Yeah, I'm the marketing guy.
	Mainly because I've always admired certain forms of marketing that are very rarely executed by the general public.
	And by that I mean, or by general companies or little operations like ours.
	And by that I mean, PBS... And religion.
	Churches.
	Because the model is so interesting that you get people that like you so much because you're doing something for them, and that's what PBS and churches are perceived as doing.
	One's helping you spiritually, and the other one's educating you out of mainstream media, supposedly.
	And...
	And their model for getting money, and by the way, I have a background in public radio.
	I had a couple of shows, two different shows that were on public radio for almost 10 years about computers.
	And I saw the mechanism, how it works and how much money they get and all the rest of it.
	And I always said, you know, why does it just have to be those two groups?
	And then, of course, the publishing, you know, the direct payment for a novel is a different kind of a thing.
	Why are these the only two groups that are using this model, A? And does anyone notice that they're actually pretty successful with this model?
	Thank you.
	There's some churches out there that have, you know, not counting the megachurches, but some decent-sized churches with maybe 2,000 to 3,000 parishioners.
	And they got the guy with a Cadillac and a big house and they got plenty of money.
	And there's only like 2,000 people that are supporting the entire parish.
	And it's like, does anybody notice that this looks like, you know, of course the tax-free thing doesn't hurt the guy.
	But it's like, obviously it's a model that works and people don't mind the model.
	I mean, we're not getting knighthood donations because people think this is a dumb idea.
	So I do the promotions.
	I come up with them every once in a while.
	One comes forward and says, well, here's an idea.
	This people would like.
	It's kind of like selling the dream kind of thing.
	I'm not sure.
	I used to be in direct marketing.
	I say that when people ask me about this, they say, look, we have a church and our religion is the truth or as close as we can get to it.
	There's that element.
	I think we seem to offend a few people if we go off the deep end with the church angle, but the fact of the matter is we do the thing on Sunday morning, and I'm sure a lot of people don't go to church and listen to us instead, or football.
	It'll be interesting to see, since we're in full tilt here trying to maximize our incomes, it'll be interesting to see what the drop-off is on listenership on the live stream during the football season.
	Oh, interesting.
	And by the way, we do look at that kind of stuff.
	We look at all the numbers.
	We keep track of stuff.
	Eric likes to dream up weird reports.
	And we look at them, and we know where we're headed.
	We're doing fine.
	We're not...
	Doing well enough that we can quit and do this full time.
	Which is okay.
	Being in a struggling situation is not a bad thing.
	And the show, I think, is sound.
	Is it harder to be excited for the next show if donations are down on the previous show?
	It is for Adam.
	That's not true.
	It's not like I'm less excited.
	You said so once.
	No.
	Then you misinterpreted what I said.
	What I meant was, first of all, it bums me out because I take that as a direct result of the program, of the product that we produced.
	It bums me out.
	Yeah, it bums me out.
	Does it make me less excited?
	No, it motivates me.
	It gets me motivated to do a better show.
	And we deconstructed, and John, by the way, you gotta know this, he's like the horrible uncle you never wanted.
	He'll send you notes like, well, that thing you did that made donations drop through the floor.
	That was horrible.
	And it took me like two months to figure out that this is bullshit, that he's just writing that just to piss me off.
	No, I was writing it for a good reason, because I believed it to be true.
	Yeah.
	It's the way you write it.
	It's the way email is.
	Sorry, Grandpa.
	Sorry, don't be such a dick.
	I suppose I should put a bunch of smiley faces and that would make you happy.
	Yeah, good.
	This is what I love about you.
	What is the single most enjoyable element of the show for each of you?
	That's a great question.
	I don't like saying the term a great question.
	But it's a thoughtful question.
	It makes you think.
	I think when the show ends...
	I think...
	Hours.
	First of all, there is no element in the show.
	I think that's...
	We have no fixed elements.
	That's true.
	The only thing that's fixed is donations.
	And we do that about an hour in.
	45 minutes to an hour, yeah.
	And we've talked about that because we notice the donations fall off if we push the thing off to near the end because a lot of people, to be honest about it, do not listen to the entire show.
	Yeah, I agree.
	I agree.
	I get a lot of emails from people.
	I'm like, we just did that two weeks ago.
	Like, how can you send me this email?
	And yeah, I agree.
	A lot of people don't get through the whole show.
	Which, by the way, is okay.
	It's okay.
	And for people who listen, who are like, oh, this is what I love.
	There's fast forward.
	You can fast forward through something you think is boring.
	I guarantee you'll be backing up.
	I think so, too.
	For me...
	Wow, this is going to sound kind of weird.
	Most enjoyable?
	Personally enjoyable?
	I like it when I have either an article or a clip and I get praise from you.
	Yeah, I'll do that because I actually keep a running score, but it's just for me, but I know you're paying attention to it.
	And I'll score a goal for you when you hit one that completely catches me flat-footed.
	I got nothing on it.
	Maybe my take is even wrong because your take is better.
	And it's interesting.
	So I give you a kudo right on the spot, and it's sincere, by the way, and I usually only do it when I know I can't top you.
	You can actually come up with something that's better than where you got the kudo, something really stunning, but I know I've got a topper.
	Yeah.
	And so I won't give you the kudos then.
	So that's kind of interesting.
	Do we have a weird father-son relationship?
	No, no.
	It's a teammate relationship where you're trying to compete for that position of dominance.
	Okay.
	I think it's a team orientation where the two guys are working to win, but you want to be the guy that did the best.
	But it's okay if you score the goal.
	Yeah, you scored the goal.
	Okay, you scored the goal.
	Next time I'll score the goal, you prick.
	Yeah, that's a good analysis.
	The father and son thing doesn't work that way because father and son would be more patronizing.
	I'm not patronizing.
	I'm straightforward about it.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	I'll give you that.
	I know how much you'd like that to be the case.
	Oh, no.
	Not going to happen.
	I don't think so.
	I got a little thing here, a little aside.
	I had Eric run the numbers on which country listens to us and where we get most of our support from.
	That is a question.
	And here's the answer.
	Okay, but I'm going to do it because I have the numbers and you don't, so this is my rare opportunity to make you do what we do on the show quite a bit, which is make the other person guess, knowing full well that they'll never guess it correctly, and it's just kind of a stalling tactic, but guess who's number one.
	Now, is this in total amount of donations?
	This will be both donors in the amount, but it's going to go by the total amount, but it turns out the numbers match pretty well with the...
	It's one-to-one pretty much with the donors and totals.
	I will say that the Netherlands is very high on the list.
	Who's number one?
	Oh, please.
	Well, number one's got to be America.
	Of course, by a factor of nine.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So now it gets interesting.
	Number two.
	And before you answer, I'm going to tell you right now, you're not going to get it.
	Australia?
	Oh, jeez, you got it!
	Yes!
	He shoots, he scores!
	Oh, man.
	No, I knew Australia had to be really high.
	No, I shouldn't have given you the tease.
	No, no, I knew it.
	I knew this because...
	I mean, I track it kind of in my head.
	I'm like, man, I get stories.
	The Aussies are really into us.
	But don't mess with them, man.
	These guys will mess you up.
	And they don't like what's going on.
	And I can almost guess by which country is the most suppressed.
	So, of course, America wins.
	And then Australia.
	And I think the Netherlands has got to be third or fourth on the list.
	No, actually.
	Netherlands actually comes in sixth.
	Oh, okay.
	It goes like this.
	United States, Australia, Canada.
	Canada, right.
	Yeah, I forgot Canada.
	United Kingdom and Netherlands.
	UK as well, of course.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	I actually thought the Netherlands would come in a little higher.
	Yeah, so did I. But no.
	And Belgium?
	The reason is because the Netherlands, the guys who do contribute to the show...
	Are from Belgium.
	...are very...
	they're aggressive.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	You know, Pelsmacher.
	He's in Belgium.
	He's in Belgium, yeah.
	Yeah, well, Belgium comes in.
	Then it comes Germany, Belgium, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, Mexico.
	And then we have an anomaly with Japan, which has very few people listening, but they give a lot of money.
	And same with Hong Kong.
	That's where all the money is.
	Then we've got Spain, Italy, France, Denmark is actually higher, but they don't give any money.
	They're cheap.
	Cheap.
	The damn Danes.
	The Danish are obviously cheap.
	And then Poland, which is like, that doesn't count.
	The non-English speaking countries, it doesn't bother me.
	So this is very interesting.
	For the amount of time we spend on, or have spent on stories about Poland...
	They're way down on the list.
	Oh, they're way down.
	The amount of time we spend on the UK and Australia, that's about right.
	Yeah.
	I would say.
	And Canada.
	We probably should do more on Canada.
	Yeah, the Canadians are starting to complain about it.
	And they're right.
	And, you know, it's easy enough to do.
	I mean, it's kind of hard to beat the salary.
	22 Minutes or whatever the name of the show is that nails them constantly.
	We've got some support in Singapore.
	I mean, almost every country is Estonia, Dominican Republic, Malaysia, Qatar, Israel, one person.
	Yay!
	That actually is the one that really surprises me the most.
	That we'd have one listener in Israel.
	You may be blocked there for all I know.
	Could be.
	Yeah, could be.
	And Portugal, we haven't got much...
	You'd think I'd have more from Brazil since I'm a writer there and fairly well known, but again, it's in translation.
	They may be writing all kinds of crap.
	You don't know what they're translating it to.
	No, I know what they're translating it to.
	I've had a lot of people, I know a lot of Brazilians, and one guy said to me once, and I know the translator, he's a great guy.
	I've sat down with him and...
	On a PowerPoint, like in ten minutes, the guy's fantastic.
	Let me, uh, uh, what was the...
	Oh, here's one that I can't answer.
	What are the current subscriber numbers?
	First of all, subscriber numbers.
	The word subscriber is a misnomer.
	Because we really don't know how many people listen to this show by downloading.
	We absolutely just don't know.
	John, how often...
	And by the way, I don't think anyone knows in podcasting what their actual real numbers are.
	There is so much smoke about numbers.
	You have to guess.
	What would you guess?
	Well, based on normal direct marketing returns and the kind of money we get, it's hard to say.
	I mean, it could be anywhere from $50,000 to $400,000.
	Yeah, that's about the same range I'm in.
	And it's impossible to tell from the downloads and the proxies.
	And, of course, I'm sure there's a small percentage that is...
	Maybe not downloading at all, listening only to the stream.
	There's people who get it on BitTorrent.
	In terms of pure subscribers that are paying the $5, we only have about 1,500 of those people.
	We have not pushed everybody very hard to do the $5 thing.
	Some people have done the $30.
	Some people say, I'm not going to do it until you make it $10, and I haven't put that up.
	Every time they change their credit card or some number, they get bounced by PayPal so they don't have the subscription anymore.
	I get letters saying, well, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize I haven't had a subscription for six months because PayPal bounced it.
	And I got to resubscribe.
	Sorry, you know, they apologize.
	And some people get bounced for no good reason.
	It's, you know, we're not that stable.
	We need more subscribers for sure.
	We'll be pushing that probably on the show more.
	Okay, I have two more things.
	One more.
	One is, I actually would like to know how you prep for the show.
	I think I already explained what I do.
	I don't do...
	I don't generally...
	What I do is I typically take the articles and things that I found and I print them out and pile them up.
	As they come, because I get most of my stuff online.
	And then I'm always making clips, because I have an H2 recorder by my side at all times.
	And I'm constantly jumping up, even when the full family could be watching a movie or something.
	I'm jumping up and stopping the movie, backing it up, and then getting a clip.
	So I collect a lot of...
	I spend most of my time collecting clips and articles.
	And I don't organize them very well.
	Because of the nature of the show, I'm always assuming that it's going to go anywhere, because you never know who's going to bring up a topic that gets interesting in the conversation itself.
	So I'm probably underprepared.
	In terms of pure preparation, not in terms of the work that goes into getting the clips and reading a lot, but in terms of thinking about what I'm going to do.
	Occasionally, we'll take a bunch of notes.
	If you listened to the show maybe a year ago, I would have these notes.
	I used to ridicule myself for having...
	Taking terrible notes.
	I can't read.
	And that was a little more preparation, but I found that it really hasn't, that didn't do anything to improve the show.
	And it also kind of puts, if I prepare too much, I'll try to dominate the show, which kind of ruins the pace and flow.
	For me, I do collect everything because if you look at the show notes versus what we talk about in the show, the show notes are often four times as much information.
	And I think that is a valuable part of the show for people to be able to go and research stuff and look at things.
	And there is a reasonable segment of the audience that really uses that and appreciates it and looks at it.
	Some of the iPhone apps give you good access to it and searchability.
	But I'm typically always hoping, just hoping that I can find...
	From a radio production perspective, here it is.
	I'm hoping that there's one or two zingers that I have.
	Either it's a clip or it's a story or something.
	And I'll work on that.
	And I cannot go to bed on a Wednesday night or a Saturday night without knowing I have something.
	And I sometimes will try out my rap on Mickey.
	I'll say, how does this sound?
	And usually I get shot down.
	Yeah, I refuse to do that.
	I think that's overdoing it.
	Yeah, I get shot down.
	Good.
	So here's a question that somebody has for you.
	What happened to the global blank fund?
	Adam was supposed to have a big report on it.
	The what?
	Remember that fund you were talking about, that money that was hidden during the Reagan administration or something?
	Oh, you know, it was a French name.
	Yeah, this is from Brian Monday.
	Now there's your answer, Brian.
	Yeah, well I hit so many dead ends and I just don't have the time to spend my life Yeah, and it's not going to bring anything to the party.
	I guess the answer is, no one has done enough reporting, at least that I could find, that makes it believable or credible enough, and the only way to really get into it is I'd have to do the investigative work myself, and that's obviously not going to happen.
	Okay, Hugsalot asks, what's the actual cost of producing the show?
	Most podcasts have zero budgets and still produce shows.
	DSC is done free.
	No?
	No, it's not.
	That's not true.
	DSC is a part of what the founding and sustaining producers of the No Agenda stream donated their money for, and we'll have to do another drive.
	And, you know, what is the actual cost?
	I mean, what does it cost you to go to work?
	You know, there's actual cost.
	This is actual time.
	There's preparation.
	Time is money.
	Value for value.
	That's the way it works.
	Time is definitely money.
	So is there actual, you know, would you like me to charge by the hour the amount of time it took me to set up the studio?
	That's just one little thing.
	Actually, the question to me is vague.
	I don't know what it means.
	DZPix asks, what iPhone iPad app does Adam use for the Jingles Sound Bank?
	I use a program called Soundbyte, B-Y-T-E, one word, Soundbyte, on the Mac.
	It is made by Black Cat Software.
	And I've just kind of been, they essentially replicated a cart machine.
	They look like carts.
	You can color them like you would color, and a cart is a cartridge.
	That's the old school way of putting jingles into a jingle machine.
	And it's pretty customizable.
	And what's nice about it is they released an iPhone app, which I can run on the iPad, although it kind of sucks because it runs in iPhone mode and you kind of enlarge it and it doesn't work very well.
	In fact, today I didn't use it at all.
	But normally I do.
	And it brings up the screen of your cart deck the way it looks on the computer screen.
	And the only reason...
	If I had an...
	I would prefer to have an extra monitor instead of having the iPad run that because I use two monitors because I have a lot of stuff that I have to monitor.
	And really what I need is I need to be able to connect a third screen to my laptop.
	I don't think that's an easy thing to do, though.
	Okay.
	Here's an interesting question.
	I should be able to answer, but I'm going to have you do it if you can.
	I bought a Nokia E71 because you said you like it.
	How do I get the stream to work on it?
	Can we do that?
	There is actually, in the Nokia OV store, which is their version of the app store, there is a...
	It's just released.
	If you go there, and it's like create your own Nokia app.
	I think they're actually calling them apps.
	You can enter the RSS feed for no agenda, and it will create an app for your phone.
	And then you can put that on your phone.
	It does not do the streaming bit, but you can get streaming...
	programs all over the place for the Nokia.
	But I think it's more interesting just to be able to make your own app for the episodes.
	So that's how you do that.
	And BlackBerry, by the way, also is coming out.
	They called me like, yeah, we're going to do podcasting on the BlackBerry.
	Can you log in and put in your shows for your company?
	And I put in...
	No agenda.
	Daily source code.
	Tech 5 top 5 cranky geeks and then I got bored.
	So apparently there's some podcasting thing on Blackberry.
	So yeah.
	Any more from the chat room?
	This is actually from Twitter.
	Let me see if there's one more here.
	Hold on one second.
	Just go to see who's texting me.
	The guy says the show's gone from a show with no jingles and no talent to a glut of both.
	I thought that was kind of unique.
	It's gone to a what?
	We have a glut of talent, apparently, on the show.
	It's just the same two guys.
	Somebody else asks, the show's changed a lot since its inception.
	It's the same guy, actually, Opera Now.
	Do you prefer the new format?
	And, you know, obviously we do.
	Or we wouldn't be doing it.
	And the audience does, more importantly.
	The audience does, too.
	I mean, you know, this show is, you know, it's a...
	But, you know, I've been broadcasting long enough.
	You always have people who say, oh, it was much better then.
	Oh, it was better then.
	Oh, no, I have the same thing as a writer.
	You get this.
	I have people that still say, when you were writing that column for Info World, it was much better.
	And I looked at those.
	I can go back and look at that old crap.
	And it wasn't.
	Generally speaking, things improve.
	Yeah, I guess it's just the nature of the beast.
	It's the nostalgia or, you know, people.
	At some point, people either like you more in time, because they hear you more, they read you more, or they like you less in time, and then they associate that with maybe you were doing something different before.
	Generally speaking, you weren't.
	All right, so wrapping this up, what's the future?
	Well, we've got another 200 shows to do.
	At least?
	No, we have at least until episode 333.
	Well, before we do another promotion like the Deuce Club.
	Well, we've got to thank all the Deuce Club members profusely.
	We'll do that over time and on the webpage.
	And I think, you know, we're not showing any indication of slower growth.
	People still like the show.
	I think the great thing, and we've talked about this off the air a lot, There's so much material for us.
	Yeah, I think the show, there's only growth because it just comes automatically.
	The media is getting worse.
	They're laying everybody off.
	The Obama administration is getting worse.
	They're lying to the public just straight out.
	There's these crazy things that Hill and Knowlton are doing.
	Now that I find that they're behind all the global warming stuff, we're doomed that that's going to go through because you can't stop Hill and Knowlton.
	I don't know.
	Are you worried that the show will ever get taken off the air?
	Not seriously, but it could be.
	It could be taken off the air.
	I don't think...
	This, by the way, is a huge benefit of our model.
	Because if you have advertisers, that's the attack mechanism.
	That's where you're weakest.
	The minute someone doesn't like what you say, look at Imus.
	And that's just one example.
	The minute you go somewhere that they don't like you, then the audience...
	For us, it's easy.
	The audience is like what we do.
	We get no money.
	It's like, okay, we can turn that around in one episode.
	We can go, oh, okay, we went off the track there.
	We can get it back on.
	But when your advertisers pull out, then the network goes nuts, and then you're out of a job.
	You're dead.
	You're gone.
	You're history.
	You're out.
	In other words, you don't have control from the get-go.
	And that's another reason I think the direct support is the way to go.
	It's open source.
	We don't care.
	One of the things that's great about it, I always say, well, if somebody bootlegs the show, puts it on their own website, takes credit for it, say they produce it, I don't care.
	The fact is our messages are embedded in the show.
	And it goes with us.
	We don't need to prove numbers.
	We don't say, oh, our numbers from Arbitron came in and we got a 3-3 and this is, here, look, Mr.
	Advertiser, give us some more money.
	We have a better CPM. We have a certain demo.
	They have to prove our demo and we have to prove the CPM and this and that and the other thing.
	I mean, it's ridiculous.
	Remember those days when you'd wait for the Arbitrons to come out and the whole station was like tiptoeing around?
	Well, we know the trends are down, so how bad will it be?
	Yeah, we don't deal with any of that.
	We don't want to.
	It's ridiculous.
	And we're completely independent.
	We don't have anybody telling us what to do.
	We don't have advertisers telling us what to do, which is the real danger here, without exception.
	The only way we would be taken off the air is if the government or somebody sued us or the government decided to pull the plug.
	Who knows?
	But that's not going to happen.
	We're below the radar.
	We're crackpots.
	We believe we're conspiracy theory people.
	And maybe we'll get taxed for being conspiracy theory guys.
	Yeah, that's the worst thing that could happen.
	Well, I can live with that.
	It seems to me that Alex Jones will get taken out before we do, and that would be a nice warning shot.
	He's the canary in the cage, as far as I'm concerned, even though I don't think he does half the work we do.
	I think he has good guests, but that's a different format.
	No, we can't.
	That's another thing.
	That's the one question we should, at least before we finish.
	We cannot do two hours.
	Yeah, we've done it again.
	Before we finish, you know, people say, well, can I be a guest on your show?
	How come you don't do this?
	How come you don't do that?
	We may do some separate interview shows separately that will be on the stream that will be part of some other initiative.
	This show is what it is.
	It's two guys talking to each other about the current events, just like you do in the coffee shop with your buddies.
	There's no guest.
	When you're in the coffee shop, you don't say, man, coming in to have a guest donut.
	Here's a guest.
	You know, so-and-so who just finished a book.
	So what was your book about?
	This is not the Larry King show.
	Right.
	Well, anyway, so yeah, we were going to do an hour.
	We're moving up now on, what are we at?
	I have the exact recording here.
	We are at 145.
	Good job.
	Thank you again to everyone who supports No Agenda, who supported this show, The Deuce Club.
	Thanks to everyone who's out there making websites and crazy ideas and promoting us.
	It is also your show.
	So, I can just say thank you.
	John, thank you.
	Thank you.
	It's the highlight of my week.
	And it happens twice a week.
	And we'll try to do these special third shows every so often.
	Yeah, what are we going to talk about?
	Well, I think we talked out.
	The funny thing is, I'll bet you we could do another two hours.
	You know, I was just about to say, not a problem.
	And our spouse...
	Why do you think it's so weird that I don't use headphones?
	It's atypical for radio guys.
	It's totally atypical, but I've managed to, because I use the pop screen as my point of departure, and so if I keep my lips within a quarter inch of the pop screen, I'm within the range of this microphone.
	We're back, by the way, with the last bit of this special episode.
	You can tell that we speak exactly the same way off-air as we do on-air.
	Why do you think that's so weird?
	That's, you know, it reminds me of, like, I tell people this when you try to give people teleprompter training.
	And the funny thing is, I remember years and years ago, I was doing some audio radio thing of some sort, and I was reading an advertising copy, and there was just a moment where the read became my actual voice.
	Oh, and that's when you get the gig, obviously.
	And you go, oh my god, that sounds so cool.
	Yeah, it sounds good.
	I'm actually natural.
	Now, by the way, there's one thing I did want to mention in the first half is the stammering I do all the time.
	I think it's annoying.
	Thank God people don't bitch about it.
	I don't notice it at all.
	Yeah, well, I do when I hear myself.
	Well, you know, everyone has, there's a lot of stuff I don't like about how I talk.
	You sound a lot better than I do.
	Anyway, so I think this pretty much wraps this show up.
	Well, I just wanted to say there, the format, well, not the format.
	If anything, the show has kind of developed the format.
	For me, there is a change which was driven more by the world around us.
	And when I say the world, I mean the media world.
	Now that there's less and less news actually being presented in the mainstream media...
	I think that both of us have taken it upon ourselves to work much harder at actually finding new doors.
	I mean, we're doing more uncovering.
	I mean, I jokingly call myself a government legislation analyst.
	Did you get the email from the guest that says that was redundant?
	No, I don't, or I haven't seen it yet.
	Oh yeah, well a guy says, why could you call yourself that?
	All legislation is government legislation, or it can't be called legislation, so you're being redundant.
	You should be calling yourself an independent legislation analyst.
	No, that doesn't sound good at cocktail parties.
	When you say government legislation analyst, yeah, no.
	I'm just telling you, you need to realize it's redundant.
	Yeah, I think that, well, you've done a lot more reading, deep reading, and gotten into reading legislation.
	I had not gone that way.
	I'm still floundering in some of this stuff.
	Well, no, I disagree, because...
	You're doing something interesting, especially the last couple of shows.
	You've been tuning in to a lot of foreign media sources, still English-spoken in general.
	Yeah, I have gone to the foreign sources, because that's the only thing I've been able to do, where I'll bring these stories up, and you haven't heard them, which proves my point, that these stories are not getting out there.
	And some of these stories are interesting, like the Cambodian child.
	Yeah, it hits CNN now, actually.
	Finally.
	Yeah.
	That's another thing we've done since the Red Book began and actually even before that.
	People are finally realizing that we're way ahead of the curve on some of these stories.
	Way ahead of the curve.
	Well, yeah, just look at drones.
	I mean, I don't think it was in 205 that I can remember, but I know we were talking about drones as far back as 2010.
	And it kind of creeps up on you.
	And sometimes I've just got to remind myself, like, man, we've been talking about this for so long.
	And we were joking about drones overhead.
	Now it's mainstream conversation.
	Just mainstream conversation.
	So let's wrap this one up, give people a heads up on the next show, and then we hope they'll keep helping us here.
	Yes.
	With the donations, even though we're not live.
	Well, we are live to tape, but it's kind of a...
	And we're going to be back for a brief intro, live to tape, for Sunday's show, which will be a compilation.
	Of episodes 381 through 384.
	A lot about pipelines.
	Pipelines.
	Which is kind of good because our general theory has not changed that the world is pretty much about oil and drugs.
	And that's, if it fits, you know, all the stories.
	Arms get some play.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Oil, drugs, and arms.
	Then there's that.
	Yeah, so tomorrow I will be a married man.
	Congratulations.
	Thank you so much.
	And as always, we appreciate all the support from all of our producers around Gitmo Nation.
	We'll be back with, as I said, with the special, the Pipeline special on Sunday.
	Until then, in the morning everybody, I'm Adam Curry.
	And from Northern Silicon Valley, I'm John C. Dvorak.

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