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Nov. 22, 2008 - No Agenda
01:02:28
58: Cork Grows on Trees
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Rain, sleet, no, not even snow can stop us from doing our weekly show, even if it's at 8.30 in the morning on a Saturday.
Hey everybody, it's No Agenda coming to you from the United Kingdom.
My name's Adam Curry.
I'm John C. Dvorak here in Lisbon, Portugal, where it's 8.30 in the morning.
Yeah, and it's like we're on really old guy time, John.
Speak for yourself.
John calls me yesterday and says...
Hey, let's do the show tomorrow at 8 o'clock.
8 a.m.
I said, no, no, no, no, no.
So I appreciate the 8.30.
That makes a big difference in my life.
You can go back to bed afterwards.
I can't.
I can't get back to sleep after I'm awake.
It never works.
Well, then you can thank me for getting you up early.
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right.
Hey, John, how's Portugal doing?
That's about 70 degrees, Sonny.
It's beautiful today.
We're going to go out doing some photography.
So I'm over here at one of the trade shows, the government import-export agency, trade agencies.
And what is that?
Isn't that arms dealers, import-export?
No, this is all tech.
In fact, yesterday, if I was in the arms business, I'd probably be better off.
So yesterday, I kind of split off from the group and went with one of the other trade representatives, and we went up to the wine country.
Hold on a second.
So you're staying in Lisbon right now?
Yeah.
And where is the wine country, according to you?
Well, the wine country is all over the place.
Exactly.
That's my point.
Well, it's not quite as bad as France, where you can't walk down the street without running into a winery.
But it's still the place we went was out an hour and a half out of town.
Any place you want to go in Portugal is always an hour and a half.
I've been there many, many times, particularly in the 80s.
But one of the things I did yesterday, and I kind of wanted to do this for years, I went to a cork factory.
Which seems to be no longer a growth market.
Aha, see?
Thank you very much for walking into that one.
No, dude, it's early, okay?
No, I mean, seriously, the cork people are literally pissed off about the anti-cork propaganda that's been going around, including the commentary that, you know, they're chopping down cork trees and their corks are all bad and blah, blah, blah, because this all turns out to be done by the plastics enclosures, public relations agencies.
Oh, of course.
Of course.
That's how it goes, right?
You just spew some bullshit into the ether and take away someone's market.
Out it comes.
So the fact of the matter is, in reality, the cork plantations are growing, as we speak, at 4% a year here in Portugal.
And it's also illegal, even if you bought a house with a cork tree in it, they've got all these trees registered, you can't touch that tree, even if you're never going to take the cork bark off.
You know, I never realized that, and this may sound weird, but I've never realized that cork comes from a tree called the cork tree.
In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a cork tree ever.
Well, that's another thing that I... I'm slightly embarrassed about not knowing this, but if you can see these things...
Actually, in Portugal, from what I can tell, wherever you go, that's all you see.
Almost every other tree is a cork tree.
It's an oak.
Huh.
It's a specific kind of oak.
It's a cork oak.
Do you have to treat the wood when you cut it down, or is it just like a real cork?
No, you never cut the wood down.
What is cork?
Cork grows on the cork tree?
It's a special kind of bark that this tree develops.
It takes about 40 years before it gets thick enough that you can make corks out of it, which is a long-term investment.
Most of these trees are quite old, and they go for about 100 years.
And I got, believe me, I got the lecture.
But anyway, so a couple days ago we were taking a trip down south and I kept looking around and I saw some of these trees that have the, because they strip off, every seven years they take the bark off during one part of the year, like shearing a sheep.
It's a very careful process.
They take the bark off and then it regrows and it takes another seven years to get another batch.
But I'm looking around and I'm saying, well, that's interesting that they're taking the bark off these oak trees.
Because, you know, being from the Bay Area where Oakland is, you know, you get used to, and I have an oak tree in my backyard.
I know what oak looks like.
It has a distinctive look as it grows.
It's just a good-looking tree.
And all I'm seeing are these oak trees.
And then I see a bunch of oak trees with the bark stripped off of them.
I'm thinking, I wonder what that's all about.
I've never had a two and two, obviously.
And so then they pointed out that, yeah, no, it is an oak, dummy.
And so the whole country is covered with these things.
And they showed us a map at the cork place.
And it's unbelievable how many of these trees are here.
In fact, we're at the cork factory, and this is only one of hundreds of these places.
They had 14,000 tons of bark stacked up in the back.
And this bark is light, so you can imagine what that looked like.
So it is truly a business that is growing by 4%.
Yeah.
And the rest of it's nonsense, too, they were talking about.
Here's what their litany was, and I brought this up.
Now, is this part of the import-export tour that were you forced to go to this, because you took this junket, this press junket, were you forced to go to the cork farm?
No, this is my decision.
Okay, good.
We're forcing you to the cork farm.
Come on!
You've got to pay the piper somewhere.
What did they force you to do on this trip?
What was the thing that they...
They forced us to go down to their big dock scene down in the...
Ooh, look at the pretty ships coming in!
Well, it's like their new project.
It's a deepwater port south of Lisbon, an hour and a half.
An hour and a half south of Lisbon, of course.
In Oporto, by any chance?
No, Oporto's...
Oops.
Porto's north of Lisbon.
Actually, it's about three hours.
That's a long way.
But no, it was south of Lisbon.
And yeah, we had to do that, so that wasn't that interesting.
I mean, I've seen docks before.
We live in the Bay Area.
San Francisco, yeah, really.
In fact, these dogs were like kind of Mickey Mouse compared to what we have in the Bay Area where they got, you know, just like ridiculous difference.
So that was one of the issues.
It was kind of like boring.
But the cork thing wasn't.
It was quite interesting.
No, that's interesting.
Did you pick up any souvenirs?
Oh, yeah.
No, I got a chunk of really exclusive super cork.
Big piece.
The guys chopped it off for me right from the batches that they were sorting.
Cool.
And I also got a piece of extruded cork that's about...
I told them they should be making these gag corks that are extremely long.
I saw this on a Benny Hill once where he pulls out the cork and thinks it's about a mile long.
It's like bigger than the bottle.
It just keeps coming out of the bottle, man.
That's funny.
But anyway, I took a lot of little movies with the small digital cameras, so I'm going to post them.
But I'm also going to post this thing where this woman says it's a crock of crap about what they've been saying about corking.
And here's what the litany is, is that the corks have all gone bad.
The corks are bad.
Because they've overharvested them, so they can't get any good cork anymore, which is crazy.
And then they're loaded with TCA, which is that cork taste, which they're actually testing to extremes with now.
And they're chopping the trees down, which apparently is the one that really irks the cork.
Because they don't, because you've got to take care of your cork tree.
It's illegal.
But it's also illegal, so you can't do that, and that's not the way the whole thing works.
Well, illegal in Portugal, maybe.
Yeah, well, Portugal's still the big cork producer of the world.
I mean, the whole country's just cork trees.
So anyway, they're a little annoyed by the propaganda, and I was actually kind of taken aback by these, you know, but once hearing her, you know, lament, I realized, you know, there we go again, here's our public relations machines, you know, spewing whatever it is to the public.
Well, that's why I asked, you know, if it was on the tour, if it was on the, you know, a forced outing or not.
Oh, okay, that sounds pretty legit.
Because that is, you know, you can, which is part of a public relations scheme.
But no, it wasn't.
It was my decision, and I'm the one who insisted on it.
And the cork person, she went on about, you know, we haven't done much in the way of people.
Hey, John, that's perfect.
No Agenda, brought to you by the Portuguese cork industry.
Proudly bringing you cork.
Don't you think that would be a great sponsor for us?
I'm going to work on it.
I don't see why they wouldn't.
Yeah, I mean, we talked about wine.
They got tons of dough.
We need some.
Absolutely.
We'll push their cork agenda.
That would be cool.
That would be very, very cool to be sponsored by the cork.
See, and then she makes the complaint about these plastic enclosures, besides the plastic corks, which generally don't work, by the way.
But there's a plastic screw top.
She says, you know, you've got metals, just a polluting thing, and you've got the plastic, which is non-renewable inside, and on and on.
Yeah, that plastic stuff can make you sterile, too, I hear.
Seriously?
Yeah, if you put it over you, you know...
Ah, ba-do-ba-doom.
Thank you.
But anyway, the countries are quite pretty.
I'm kind of surprised by the amount of English literacy that's here.
And that's only really been the past 20 years.
I mean, when I was in Portugal in the early 80s, dude, third world country.
Yeah.
Yeah, things have changed since...
Actually, I think it was 86, but I was told this, that once they joined the EU... That's when it happened, yeah.
That's when they started to come out of third world ship.
Right, and they just shot right to the...
Did you drive by the football stadium?
The beautiful new...
It's great because they don't have a team, which I think is the funniest thing.
They have a national team.
Yeah, but they don't have a team that actually plays anywhere.
Oh, yeah, that's true.
They're on the road.
They built that stadium because they were hosting, I think, either the European or the World Cup.
They don't really have a team that can really compete.
They've got some good players, but not a national team that does any good.
I think they'll argue with you about that.
No, no, no.
I think they won't argue with me about that.
Well, I don't know.
I don't follow the game because I'm an American.
Yeah, that's right.
It's a girls game in the United States, and what can I say?
But, you know, I think the girls who play soccer, as you would call it in the States, I don't know, man.
I think they're hot looking.
Yeah, well, that's fine.
Yeah, so that means that game is a good game.
It could be on television more often.
It's like field hockey.
Women's field hockey.
Why don't we just have naked volleyball?
No, no, no.
See, that's the typical American way.
No finesse.
It'd be like beach volleyball.
Here in Europe, it's like, we know what's hot.
We got our women's football, and then we've got the women's field hockey.
I see you can't get into it.
Tennis, maybe.
Oh, you'll like this.
Martina Navratilova.
Is on the current episode of I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here.
And she's great, along with, you'll love this, George Takei.
Oh.
Oh, hey now.
George Takei.
I'm hooked on the show once again.
What a great cast.
You watch too much television.
No, I do not.
So I'm watching the television over here, of course, so I get to watch your own news, which I'm going to have to get a feed of or something, because I think it's quite interesting, even though they're just a little repetitious.
So I got the biggest kick out of a couple of things I've been seeing, which they haven't really been played much in the States, but apparently they had, you probably saw this, and I don't know if you noticed it or not, but Merkel came into Italy to visit Berlusconi, who was sick, I guess, and he was going to surprise everybody by standing on the sidelines as they walked in.
Yeah.
So they're showing this film, and there's Merkel, the German...
Prime Minister, Chancellor Merkel, yes.
Chancellor, yes.
He comes rolling in with a couple of resistance, and one of her aides looks over to the right as they're walking toward the door, and there's Berlusconi standing by the...
in the kind of the side, like watching them go in.
Right.
And he spots him.
So he says, oh, you know, and he starts going over to, you know, to shake his hand or whatever.
Merkel sees him, and she...
She literally shoves the guy, her assistant, whoever it is, damn near shoves him to the ground to get to Berlusconi first.
I have to see you, Silvio!
She pushes this guy and he never gets to even come over.
He stands at attention like, you know, whoops, I guess I made a mistake protocol-wise or something like that.
She just looked like such a jerk.
Well, because they're all falling over each other now.
You know, they've had their little meeting, and I told you they gave the U.S. 100 days to comply with whatever Europe is doing, and they're all going to solve the financial crisis.
Angela, Silvio, and Nicolas.
What a joke.
And throw in Gordon Brown, and woo!
We know how to do it.
We know how to solve it.
We're financial experts now.
Well, we'll probably be out of the whole thing two or three months before they even get into it deep enough to make a difference.
I was so ready to gloat yesterday.
Up until the last hour, the market was so close to my 7286 mark.
It was only like 300 points away.
And what happened?
Oh, well, and then Barack Obama announces his pick for Treasury Secretary.
And the thing skyrocketed.
Because he's picking a reptile!
Yeah.
I mean, this guy, what's his name again?
Yeah, I'd have to look it up.
It's one of their own.
Well, not just one of their own.
This guy, he's the full deal, man.
He worked for Carter.
He's in the Council of Foreign Relations.
He's the president of the New York Federal Reserve.
And it just goes on and on and on with this guy.
He's connected to everybody.
There's no change.
Well, there was hope for change.
Oh my goodness.
I'm looking it up now because Timothy Geithner, that's his name.
Yeah, Geithner, right.
So he's connected.
The group of 30, he's amazing.
Have you ever heard of the group of 30?
These guys, this is a scary little club.
Yeah, these are just drinking clubs.
I don't know, man.
This is definitely just more of the same print and spend.
What is Barack going to do?
Well, it essentially has to keep, you know, everybody happy, which is the group that you hate.
Timothy Geithner also worked for Kissinger Associates for three years.
Couldn't get any worse.
It really can't.
Well, Barack Obama, of course, will be doing fantastic speeches because that's what he does.
Vapid and without any content.
Rahm Emanuel, I saw one of his rare appearances.
He was on C-SPAN. He appeared before the press.
And the question was asked specifically, you know, so how are you guys going to pay for all this stimulus and everything you're giving away?
And he's just like, and he's another one of these guys.
Look!
That's how I start.
Whenever someone says, look, it's like, alright, you know you're being programmed.
Look!
Listen!
Look!
Listen!
I'm going to tell you how it is.
He doesn't actually answer the question, of course.
Of course not.
No.
Look, look, look, look, look, look.
We can, there are many things that are being spent on twice, and so we'll eliminate half of those.
Look.
Look.
I know look and um.
I don't mind the um, but the look thing is getting really irritating, and I'm seeing it more, you hear it a lot on CNBC. And it's just, it's another one of, remember we were talking about, I think, I believe, I think, meetings that go on forever with people saying that, and now it's just, look!
Look!
And it's so offensive!
Look!
Look, you fuck!
Look over here!
Because, look at me!
Because I know what I'm talking about!
Look!
And everyone does it!
That's what it is!
Well, the other one, besides look, is also, guess what?
And you know what?
You know what?
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know what.
I'm not going to guess what.
You know what?
Guess what?
We're a sad, sad, sad species.
That's pretty pathetic.
Our language has diminished down to having to get people's attention with everything that comes out of our face.
So there was a couple other things I wrote down, some notes during the weeks as I was watching this stuff.
But you enjoy the European news.
I'm sure you're having fun getting some real news for a change.
It's just all different, you know?
I mean, we don't get the same news at all.
So when I'm over here, I'm always kind of glued to the news.
I don't get to watch a lot of the other stuff on television because I get the biggest kick out of their perspective on everything.
I was watching the coverage on Bloomberg when the market turned around yesterday and shot up like a rocket.
Did the church bells just chime in the background there, John?
Here?
No.
It wasn't my church bells.
Are you sure?
Yeah, I know what it is.
There's something, this rig I brought with me.
The microphone's not grounded right or something, and it's picking up a radio station.
Hold on a second.
Let me turn off the noise gate.
Let me hear you.
I'm listening to the station.
Hold on.
Let me move it around.
Let's see what we're picking up.
Hang on.
Oh, good song.
*music* That's if I hold the mic straight up in the airline and it looks like the Statue of Liberty.
That's what it sounds like.
That was good.
That was a good station.
Could you just go back and lift your left leg a little bit?
Because I almost had it in stereo.
I don't think I can change channels.
That's the problem.
I got to figure out what to do.
I mean, although I think what I'm going to do is, what I brought with me was an M-Audio adapter, and then I got a Heil.PR. So, wait, are you using, but you have a, the Heil is, you're not going through a USB with the Heil, are you going through?
No, no, I'm going through the, I'm taking the Heil as a PR40, I'm going through an M-Audio, a FastTrack, and then the FastTrack hooks to the computer.
Yes, M-Audios, that's the thing that's not shielded.
I've never been happy with M-Audio interfaces.
Yeah, unless somebody out there can get me a better idea for an interface.
I mean, I know there's a couple of things that might work, but this thing has got, at least it has a few controls on it, so I can at least, but what I like to do is get rid of it.
I mean, I like the Heil mic a lot because it's a dynamic mic, so I don't need a preamp.
I use it myself.
It's a beautiful mic.
It's a great mic, but it's a big clunker.
Well, do you take it in the wooden box?
No, I just wrap it up in some bubble wrap.
Some newspaper.
No, I take it in the box.
I always put the box in my suitcase.
I'm going to get a countryman or something like that.
You know, I got a lot of comments about that.
That's the mini microphone that we were talking about on last week's show.
I wouldn't mind trying out a couple of those...
That new technology for microphones as well.
It sounds very exciting, actually.
The Countryman is astonishing.
I mean, it was the first time I saw one.
I said, are you kidding me?
Because I think it's a MEMS. It's not a normal microphone.
And so when you hook it up, or you first talk into it, it sounds like this mic.
Because there's no diaphragm, so you can't...
Believe that you're getting this kind of, this bass, this beautiful bassy sound from this little bitty, minuscule little dot.
And it's an astonishing product.
I think they cost about 400 bucks.
Anyway, yeah, you'd love them.
Your voice in the Countryman would be, like, perfect.
Oh, yeah, baby.
How you doing?
No Agenda, brought to you by the Portuguese Cork Industries and Countryman.
I'm just practicing.
Yeah, well, we need to do more than practice.
We need to sell these guys.
So anyway, so then I went to one of the big wineries, which I'll document in an article.
Ah, yes.
Very nice.
And they served us lunch, and we come out the outside.
You know, this is a range, too.
So you go out there, and I'm looking.
They have the outside.
This is a huge place.
They have a Portuguese flag, an EU flag, the flag of the state or the winery, and then a USA flag.
It turned out they put that USA flag because you were there.
I thought it was just going to be there all the time.
I thought I was baffled.
Do you speak any Portuguese?
No, it's almost impossible.
I mean, if you speak a little Spanish, you can't.
Even that throws you off.
You cannot think you can speak any Portuguese by speaking some Spanish.
No, it's impossible.
And then they pronounce everything totally different.
But you can read it rather easily.
It's like a really easy language to pick up if you want to just read stuff.
If you can find someone there who's over 40, John, and I'm sure you're hanging out with lots of them, Portuguese, who have been in Portugal all their life.
What are you doing, man?
Is that the cheese whistle?
Go on.
Ask them if they remember Adam Curry.
Oh.
Seriously.
Okay.
From Europa Television.
Ah, okay.
Because in 83 or so, I was on, like, every day for an hour in the afternoon, all of a sudden, on the terrestrial RTP2. Oh, yeah, they probably remember you.
Well, I don't know.
They've got to be over at least 35 or 40.
Ada Okoril would be my name.
What?
Ada O Coril.
Adam Curry.
So, yeah, I'll go out and start soliciting.
You want some dirty words?
You want some nasty stuff to say in Portuguese?
I'm leaving tomorrow, so it's not going to be like I'm going to use it.
I haven't seen a lot of hookers around here anyway.
You know, they're making a new law in the United Kingdom, which has been all the news for the past couple days, of course.
Although they're not going for a complete outright ban on prostitution.
They are making it a serious offense, and it could get you jail time, will certainly get you, as they say, named and shamed, which means they'll put your picture in the newspaper.
It's getting crazy.
If you...
Talk to a prostitute?
No, if you have sex with a prostitute who is either A, a sex slave, B... No, seriously.
You have to grill him first.
Please answer this questionnaire.
Yeah, it's like, it's crazy.
I don't understand how they're going to do it.
This is the big conversation.
Exactly what you just said.
Okay, so we're not allowed to have sex with prostitutes who are enslaved or have a pimp.
But how do we know?
And ignorance, by the way, will not be accepted as an excuse.
I think you have to make him sign a contract.
Yeah, but this is nuts.
You run into the prostitute, you figure out what's going on.
You have to have a stock contract in your pocket.
Yeah!
And you say, look, lady, I'm all for this, but right now, read this over, sign it, and we'll talk.
You're going to get this in the United States as well, I'm sure.
No, actually, this already happened in certain areas.
I mean, there's various local laws.
For example, in California, these laws are like communist laws.
They're enforced on an as-needed basis.
In other words, if they want to screw you.
Yeah, if they want to nail you like Spitzer, then all of a sudden it's really important stuff.
Yeah, I got you.
So, like in California, if there's a prostitute on the corner and you drive your car up and you solicit her and she gets in and she happens to be a cop, Then they can impound your car.
And keep it.
They can keep your car.
Of course.
And why not?
Because it was used for an illegal act.
My car!
I always tell people to use renters.
No, if you get some old clunker you've got to get rid of and nobody will take it.
That's right, because it would cost you $500 just to get rid of it.
Yeah, you have to confiscate it.
But, you know, I really don't understand.
Have they ever done any research on prostitution?
I mean, yes, of course, there's tremendous slavery issues in general, certainly in the United Kingdom.
And I'm not talking about sex slaves.
There's just slaves over here, these racist British.
I'm just going to say it.
But have they ever looked at a society like the Netherlands, as an example, where legal prostitution actually works?
Here in the United Kingdom, highest divorce rate, highest teen pregnancy rate.
No, this has been studied to death.
In fact, Nevada, where it is legal...
They have the lowest sex crime rate in the country.
They have a high divorce rate because people go there for quick divorces, but it's got nothing to do with the locals.
No, it's already been studied to death and it's a known fact.
That where you have legal prostitution, you don't have a lot of other sex crimes, basically.
The rapes are way down, and it's almost negligible, as a matter of fact.
Yeah.
Yeah, but that's beside the point, because it's a sin.
Oh, it's a religious thing, huh?
That's the thinking, yeah.
I mean, what's weird to me, here's a classic example of the kind of strange, skewed thinking.
So, this last election in San Francisco, they put it on the ballot to legalize prostitution within the city limits.
Yeah.
And I guess within, I think this would have been overturned by the state anyway, because of state law.
But, that's beside the point, they couldn't even pass it.
It would have lost 60 to 40 or something like that.
So, here we have this, probably the most liberal city in the entire state of California, outside of Berkeley, which has never tried to pass something like this.
And the funny thing is that...
They vote no.
So, prostitution illegal in California, and then you look at one of the big industries in Southern California.
Do you know that the root word for actress in Latin is the same as prostitute?
I think I did know that.
And that's why I think one of the reasons that actors and actresses were always considered low class.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, actually not low class, high class, extremely well paid hookers.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, that's why I think it was a lot of well-to-do families.
They didn't like their children.
Move to the left a little bit, John.
I'm picking up too much of the Lisbon morning zoo.
There.
Well, anyway, it just irks me.
And the thing that just pisses me off is, you know, everyone's pontificating about, oh, it's because there's so many women enslaved in the sex trade.
Well, go bust those sex trade rings and then come back and I'll buy you a hooker.
You know, it's like, please.
I'm so against this movement.
It really pisses me off.
Having grown up with prostitutes.
Yeah, well, the Netherlands is a good example of how the system can work fine.
Nobody cares.
No, in fact, it's seen as healthy.
It's seen as a part of a healthy lifestyle.
I mean, to a degree, obviously.
Yeah, well, it's better than a bunch of people with pent-up sexual frustration roaming around.
Beating people up and killing people and going crazy.
Yeah, well, it's just not going to happen.
And I think that San Francisco vote's a good example of how deeply ingrained this kind of attitude is.
We have the most liberal city you can imagine, and they can't even muster enough votes to...
But meanwhile, it's a joke.
I mean, it's not like there's no sex trade going on.
Right.
Thank God for the Internet.
Well, of course, now the latest thing is they're cracking down on Craigslist, which was the conduit for a lot of the erotic services ads.
Yeah, erotic services.
Yeah.
Yeah, well, you know, you could go over there and look at these erotic services and it was just a bunch of hookers.
Well, but it's not just a bunch of hookers.
It's a bunch of hookers.
Yeah, it's a bunch of hookers.
And they're visiting and then, you know, they don't solicit money, John.
They don't solicit money.
I know.
Roses.
Roses.
You're reliably informed.
I've seen it.
300 roses.
300 roses.
I think it'd be hilarious for some bonehead.
Show up with 300 roses?
Exactly.
Hey, baby.
It's my roses, so I know, you know.
We know entirely too much about this industry.
Well, it's all over the place.
You can't get around it.
So, what else is going on?
Well, of course, although it's been kind of beat to death, I really, particularly after knowing a couple of venture capitalists who went to China to raise money from the sovereign wealth funds and flew commercial and not in their private jet because they're smart.
It was pretty funny to see the big three automakers fly their private jets down to Washington to beg for money.
Oh, that is funny.
You didn't follow this?
You didn't know about this?
No, I didn't.
Oh, man.
That must have been the story they played up in Europe.
Oh, of course.
This is a big story, absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's just funny.
But what's kind of happening is the same thing.
We're all angry.
Everyone's angry.
And instead of venting our anger at the real evil people, i.e.
Hank Paulson, Neil Kashkari, while I'm at it, the entire Senate who passed the stupid bailout bill.
Everyone's now saying, oh, this bailout bill was wrong.
It's all going wrong.
It's not working.
We should have known better.
And so they're looking for a scapegoat.
And as we discussed a couple weeks ago in the United Kingdom, they went for the government employee, Jonathan Ross, who was a television talk show host.
And making a lot of money.
And so then they get all pissed off at him.
And so now it's like, oh, let's get pissed off at someone else.
Instead of the actual bankers, they're the ones we need to be pissed off at.
But no one's angry.
Or we don't know who to yell at, I guess.
I don't know.
So we're just grabbing anybody.
And of course, can you imagine the jokes that are flowing around?
I think each of these planes costs at least $8,000 an hour just to operate.
Yeah, so everyone's...
You have to wonder what kind of boneheads...
These guys obviously do not think like people with a public relations clue.
Exactly.
You can't go flying around in a private jet begging for money.
And by the way, this is not just...
I will give them this.
It's not like the U.S. auto industry is the only auto industry that's in trouble.
Opel is about to get a huge bailout from the German government.
And a very sad note, John, the very last Yugo rolled off the line earlier this week.
Yeah, Yugo is dead.
No more Yugo.
The last Yugo limped off the line.
I owned a Yugo station wagon at one point.
And actually as it came off, the tires blew out.
It collapsed.
The axle broke.
They went to Tesla to pull the door.
The door came out off the last Yugo.
I owned a Hugo.
It was one of my first cars.
It was alright, man.
It pretty much did as advertised.
Yeah.
It rolled.
Yeah, it rolled.
That's exactly it.
Yeah, well, I guess there's no loss there.
So, anyway, the...
The Opal thing is kind of controversial because the Germans are worried sick that they're going to give them the billion bucks because they're owned by General Motors.
General Motors is going to take the money and say, fuck you.
Of course.
Do you have an opinion on this?
Because I've been pretty clear in daily source code about what I think should happen here.
What's your opinion on the concept of a bailout for the U.S. auto industry?
Or at least the unionized auto industry in the U.S., I should say.
It's not Toyota and Honda who are in line for a bailout.
It's pretty much American-made cars that are made in America.
My thinking is that if this is in the form of a loan that is secured, I don't have a problem with it.
And I think most of this bailout is actually a loan.
It's not like a giveaway, like the bankers are getting.
I mean, they're getting, you know, essentially, Paulson, when he did part of his deal, yeah, he took some stock from, some preferred stock from some of the banks that they gave money to, but the fact of the matter is, his buddies that were on the investment community were doing the same buy-in and getting a much better deal, deal so he was essentially screwed the american public by by by giving you a deal lousy deal and allows the deal and uh... to obviously for whatever reason uh...
so so was kind of With the auto companies, you can't really give them any money.
You can just...
But your reason for that would be the United States government, lender of last resort, this industry is too big to fail.
That's basically your position?
Well, yeah.
I mean, this is another example of letting things get too big.
In fact, they're talking about this on the Bloomberg and CNBC just recently about Citibank, which is down to three bucks a share, which is hilarious.
And...
Talking about, is it too big to fail?
It's too big to fail.
This is the reason we had antitrust laws.
So you don't have these monstrosities that are too big to fail.
So you end up with like, instead of having a lot of little companies that do the same work, I mean, there used to be laws in the United States where you couldn't have a bank in more than one state.
You couldn't have a national bank.
You couldn't have the Bank of America could have its offices in California, but it couldn't have Bank of America, you know, ATM machines and offices in, you know, North Carolina, which is where they're headquartered now, or all over the country.
And it was like Citibank does.
It had to be, but no, no, let's change that.
So once you cut the thing loose and let everybody just join up, you start to get these huge monstrosities that get to be too big to fail, and then they can abuse the situation because, hey, what are they going to do?
We're too big to fail.
And this is the problem with the auto industry.
Why do they let these guys buy each other out?
And form these giant corporations that are too big to fail.
This is the problem, and this is what antitrust was all about.
This is why everyone talks about why small businesses are better than big monsters.
But yet, they let this go on, because it's like, you know, there's money in it for somebody, but obviously it's Congress.
I blame Congress for the whole thing.
Well, of course.
Obviously, our Congress has been underperforming for quite some time.
But I've really got to take an opposite stance on this.
I presume that you're saying too big to fail.
I mean, in the case of the government-sponsored enterprises like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, there was a guarantee that was implied, and of course now it had to become explicit, and that's really just government banks and the Citibank.
I'm not quite sure why that's too big to fail.
But the auto industry, the only reason being given...
That it's too big to fail is because it could potentially put millions of people out of work.
Well, the real fear is that it's going to take all...
The real problem is, of course, the people and the pensions.
So explain this to me for a second.
Okay.
So is it then not the case?
Because I mean, I see the sob stories, you know, and I feel horrible, obviously.
People say, oh, my pension's going to get ruined.
I live on my General Motors pension.
Well, how does that work?
These guys are then clearly spending people's pension money.
Apparently.
Well, so shouldn't that be looked at before anything else?
Well, maybe some people should go to jail.
Do you think of that as a possibility?
Yes, yes, of course.
I'm not against that.
I think a lot of these executives should have been thrown in the slammer years ago.
I think at some point, these guys are really pushing their luck.
I mean, I am stunned.
And here, let's go back to this.
Martha Stewart did time.
Yeah.
For what?
Well, Mark Cuban's about to do the same thing.
He'll probably get out of it.
I don't think so.
No, I've been reading...
You know, she never did time for doing anything wrong.
She did time for, like, not telling the truth to some government, you know...
Yeah, that's called obstruction of justice.
Right.
And they just made an example out of her.
But, I mean, these guys are, like, screwing with everybody.
And they're not going to do any time, and they should probably all be in jail.
Well, if you read the Mark Cuban story, which is almost like a Martha Stewart case, also involves phone taps, etc.
From what I'm understanding, this could be a vindictive move by the Justice Department or someone, particularly against Mark Cuban's involvement in 9-11 Loose Change, the movie.
And that's why they're nailing him to the wall on something.
You really come off the left field.
You like that one, huh?
Oh yeah, that's good.
I think that's the only reason people listen to this show.
No, wait a minute.
I'm telling you, man.
There's like something else from the transcripts that someone dug up.
I'd have to look for it.
Well, if you can find the smoking gun in there that's already evidence of a smoking gun or what you would perceive as one, I'd be interested in blogging that at least.
But yeah, who knows?
I mean, Cuban is kind of an obnoxious character.
You know, I like the guy.
I think he's funny, and I think he's good for...
Well, you know what pisses me off?
Is he sold absolute shit to Yahoo.
The guy's alright, and I like his HD net, and I like his basketball team, and I like what he's doing.
Because he got away with one.
He got away with a big one.
I mean, Broadcast.com was bullshit.
Yeah, I know, and it got $3 billion.
$3 billion.
That's the only thing that really, really pisses me off.
It's like, oh, come on.
Yeah, who are we kidding?
And he's got big fuck you money, as we say.
Yeah, he does.
But at least he's done something with it that's...
Not detrimental to the public trust.
No, I think he's done lots of good things.
And I love reading his stuff.
I like reading his blog.
He's a good blogger and interesting character.
But yeah, he may have done something to...
Because when you have that kind of money, you have to have some responsibility to the shadow government, as you'd put it.
Oh, yeah.
And you can't be, you know, finance and stuff that they don't want you to deal with.
Here it is.
Okay.
Well, it's from lourockwell.com, if that gives you a clue.
That's a problem.
Yeah.
Rants is the other one.
He has a New York Times key excerpts of an email correspondence.
And it is.
It's all about the loose change movie.
Have we talked about that?
What is Loose Change again?
Is that a truther thing?
Yeah.
That's the one that Charlie Sheen did the narration for.
Yeah, I must have seen it, but I can't remember it.
Blue Change is probably one of the foundations of the truth or video movement, if you will.
It's one of those that woke a lot of people up there.
I just Skyped you the Lou Rockwell link.
Although I don't know about your connection right now.
You may want to be surfing around.
Not too bad.
Sounds better than I thought it was going to sound.
Yeah, actually...
It's just a hotel shared connection.
Yeah.
You don't have to look at it right now.
I just opened up like QuickTime or something.
Ah, you must be on Vista.
Well, here's the Lou Rockwell thing.
Free Mark Cuban.
It's funny, man.
It's funny.
I'll check this out later.
It's funny.
Self-made billionaire, yeah.
Yeah, self-made.
Talking about a lottery winner, why don't they just call him one?
Just call him what it is.
He did good.
Bless him.
Bless him for that.
Let's see, man.
What else we got going on?
It's weird that you're not in the States.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's nice over here.
It's particularly nice.
I mean, this weather here is unbelievable.
I didn't know Europe was having such fantastic weather right now.
Well, they're not.
How you doing?
Only the third world portion of Europe is having fantastic weather.
We have real shit here.
We got the blustery winds, snow flurries.
We've had...
It was like 73 when I left California.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
No, it's not been great.
I was supposed to fly to Holland to go see Patricia's, one of her live shows.
And even she said, please don't fly.
She said, I'll be really nervous until you land, blah, blah, blah.
You shouldn't fly in this kind of weather.
Why?
Well, she's right.
Exactly.
Why?
You're right.
You know, you get to see her when she comes home, too, you noticed.
Well, barely.
It's like now we're like a working family.
Well, you know, it did only last for a while, and then you're back to normal.
More gold bars.
More gold bars.
Hey, baby.
Put this in your suitcase.
Now, I'm afraid that my wife has actually embarked on a later-in-life stage career that is just at the beginning of its meteoric rise.
I mean, she's got like eight producers a day calling her, oh, we want you to do this show, can you please, you know, we've got this weekly show, this is going to be great, this is written for you, this is perfect.
I mean, it's just one offer after the other.
It's unbelievable.
Just take the highest money offer.
The likelihood of another hit is pretty rare in television.
I am so looking forward to you meeting my wife because she thinks just like you.
Take the money and run.
She's just like, I ain't doing shit unless it's for a lot of money.
Like, that's right, baby.
Let me show you the picture of that jet I'm looking at.
Let me show that to you one more time.
Man, I got offered the Fortis Bank jet the other day.
Oh, really?
Yeah, five million dollars.
It's a twelve million dollar aircraft.
They're selling it for five million.
Yeah, the maintenance is a little rough on those things.
No, I mean, if you can't afford the maintenance, then you shouldn't have the plane at all, but I'm just saying that a $12 million aircraft being offered to the bank's clients for $5 million, that's a bad sign of the bank.
Even though they're owned by the Dutch government at this point, or the Dutch and Belgian governments, or whoever owns them.
It's a fire sale, they call that.
Hell yeah.
Oh yeah.
What kind of jet is it?
What model?
It's a...
I think it was a C-Jet.
I think it was a Cessna.
I should look up the offer again.
I know that it's a good jet.
Trust me.
As jets go, it's a good jet.
It's just funny.
If you had a jet, you'd never be home.
No, that's not true, man.
I got my plane here.
I haven't flown the thing in almost two months.
I hope it still starts.
Yeah, well, you know, there's nothing worse for an aircraft than sitting around not flying.
That's actually not really good.
Same thing with a Ferrari, by the way.
You know, I have had, I think, just about every stupid car known to man.
And I recently discovered that I'm done.
I'm done with automobiles.
I'm quite perfectly happy to be driven around by anyone.
I've had them all.
My favorite was the Rolls Royce, which I drove into New York every day for like seven years.
Yeah, it's a little flamboyant.
Not at all.
Yeah, it is.
I've been to New York as much as anyone, and I don't think I've seen a Rolls but two or three times ever.
Well, the cool thing was, this is back when we had the squeegee guys at the tunnel.
Remember those?
Oh, yeah, those guys.
And, uh, which, um...
They came up with a...
For people to know, these are the guys who would come up to your car with an oily rag full of goo and offer to wash your windows.
Well, not even offer.
They'd, like, throw the oily goo rag onto your window.
And, of course, if you were in the know, then you'd already have your windshield wipers going, which was the universal signal for don't touch the car, motherfucker.
And it used to be like a dollar.
And Giuliani got rid of all the squeegee guys, by the way.
I think he put them in Oklahoma.
But he got rid of them regardless.
And so I'd drive through the Lincoln Tunnel with the rolls, and I'd put my wipers on, and then the squeegee guy would go, Oh man, I wasn't going to touch the car!
Come on, give me a dollar for the thought.
Which I usually would wind up doing.
Like, thank you.
It's a dollar for not touching my car.
A dollar to go.
It's like the guys who, you know, that was the era when it was really annoying to go on the subway because there was usually one or two competitive beggars Sometimes with a saxophone or just coming around with a long story.
They'd walk into the car and then they'd say, ladies and gentlemen, I'm not a beggar.
Yeah, I'm a student.
I'm not a beggar.
I am an actor.
I'm here on a scholarship.
And then they'd go into their spiel and everyone would put their heads down and go, my God.
That's why the iPod was such an important invention.
They didn't have to listen to that.
Yeah, well, you don't see it too much anymore, although it has happened occasionally, but it's pretty rare because once they crack down, it takes a while for it to redevelop.
I think over time it will reappear.
New York is a very cyclical city.
It just deteriorates drastically overnight and has to be straightened out by some tough guy.
Which Giuliani was?
Yeah, well, it's actually the guy, the head chief of police.
Who's responsible for all that stuff.
He went down to L.A. and has been unable to do crap down there.
Really?
Because it's a total mess.
Who was that?
What's his name?
Braxton Bradford.
I wouldn't know.
I really wouldn't know.
Well, he's the guy who came up with...
It's his theory that the squeegee guys were the...
He says most of the crime has a lot to do with perception.
And once you lower the perception, then people change their attitudes and they don't walk around like victims.
And the crime rate actually falls.
And so he went after what he calls obvious petty crimes that they were always ignoring because they didn't think it was that important to bust the squeegee guys.
So he felt just the opposite.
He says, those are the guys you want to get rid of because it makes the place look like it's crime ridden.
I have to say, I was there when that took place.
And even though, again, I'm afraid that he took all these people and dumped them somewhere, put them in a mass grave and killed them all.
But it turned out he had the actual numbers on.
He says there weren't that many squeegee guys, except they were out all the time.
And he says, once you started arresting them and throwing them in jail, making it inconvenient for them to do this, they went elsewhere.
Well, he cleaned it up.
Maybe there is a shallow grave somewhere.
Whatever the case was, he cleaned up the place.
Then they went further and they cleaned up Times Square.
Got rid of the prostitution that was all around that Times Square area.
Pushed kind of the outskirts and got rid of it.
I think, generally speaking, there's nothing like that.
I mean, back in that era, you could go anywhere in New York and there were hookers everywhere.
Ah, good times.
Good times.
So let me ask you, John.
So let's say we're living like somewhere, let me just say, Africa.
And we're sitting around and we're saying, hey man, let's pull off a heist and let's make some money.
There's so many rich fuckers in this world.
Let's go, I know, let's hijack an oil tanker.
Can you explain this rationale to me why Somali pirates have hijacked an oil tanker and what they actually think to get away with?
They've been hijacking these things for about two or three years now.
This wasn't just the one.
That was the big one.
That was the monster.
They've jacked the oil.
They've jacked the towers out there 100 miles off the coast.
Is it really such a big trade?
To go...
Hijack this monstrous thing.
Do they actually think they're going to get away with anything?
They've already gotten away with a number of hijacks.
Yeah, but this is the biggest...
They got carried away with this one.
They took out the...
How many millions of barrels...
Two million barrels of oil are on this thing?
I think it's one-third of daily Saudi production is in that one boat.
Right.
I don't know.
I mean, I think they're going to get paid off and they're going to release the boat and that's going to be that.
But now, of course, Blackwater's getting involved.
Yeah, I know.
They've got their own ship with an attack helicopter.
Right.
In fact, Blackwater's going to develop their own private navy.
Yeah.
Which, I'm thinking to myself, why doesn't the Saudis just, you know, do the same thing?
You know, these guys, the Blackwater guys, are amazingly entrepreneurial.
I mean, I've never seen, you know, to commercialize mercenaryism to this extreme is just, I mean, I only saw this guy, the guy who runs Blackwater, he testified before Congress once, and he looks like a Silicon Valley guy.
Is that Prince, is that his name?
Yes, I can't remember.
Yeah, I think so.
But anyway, I was watching him testify because he rarely shows his face, probably for good reason.
And he just was just, this guy is a genius.
Well, I've seen him on Charlie Rose.
I'll look that up for you because it was a really good show.
And the guy, he is, he does look like a Silicon Valley entrepreneur.
Yeah.
But it's disgusting to me.
Yeah, well, I mean, it should be.
I mean, we shouldn't have this kind of thing, but the fact of the matter is I've never seen, I would have never imagined in a million years that somebody could commercialize this kind of business to such an extreme level.
That it's like, you know, becoming its own government.
It could probably take over a place.
Well, it's called the military-industrial complex, John.
It's been going for a while.
That's what I said, but it's not been this entrepreneurialized in such an extreme where it's like just out in the open.
And I think that they could be hired to take over a government.
You can say, let's do a contract deal.
You know, you get a bunch of billionaires together.
Oh, that's interesting.
So wait a minute.
So what you're saying is they, of course, will always go for the highest bidder.
So in a very typical American lazy entrepreneurial way, instead of going to the arms we have the right to bear to, fuck it, we'll just hire Blackwater for our coup.
Exactly.
Exactly.
They'll have a navy pretty soon.
So you figure, you target a country, look around, you know, you can look at South America, you can look anywhere, some island, some island.
How about the United States?
Let's go to Washington.
We'll hire Blackwater to do it for us.
I think it's going to be a tough one because I think they're in cahoots.
So that's not going to happen.
But let's just say there's some country in Africa that has a lot of natural resources or something in South America.
We take Blackwater and we just take over the place.
And then we immediately do a treaty with the United States, you know, in some sort of a quid pro quo.
And then just take and steal all the resources.
Right.
How about...
You should be able to do a cost-benefit analysis where we'll pay for the country, and Blackwater will get paid off.
And they get a piece of it.
You have to do it as a stock deal.
So they get stock options on the country's resources.
And so Blackwater becomes a partner, and also the military.
And boom, it's all done just like any other investment.
The only thing you have to talk about is the warrants.
It's just the warrants.
That's all that we care about at the end of the deal.
But isn't that exactly what Georgia did?
Chilling and murdering is like any Silicon Valley deal.
Yeah, well, this is Georgia South Ossetia.
That's exactly what happened.
They got Blackwater guys in to do it.
Yeah, that could be.
So, yeah, well, yeah, they probably do.
So, yeah, it's all a scam.
So I guess talking about scams, Putin is going to run, you know, they've changed all their laws, they're going to keep themselves in, these guys are never going to do it.
Yeah, now the term is six years in Russia for the president instead of four.
Yeah, Putin's going to be in forever, let's face it.
He's the next thing to Stalin.
Well, I don't know, that's probably, well, Russia had to do something.
You know, because all of their oligarchs are going belly up.
So I guess the oil companies that they initially stole are now stealing back?
Is that kind of the way it works?
I don't know.
Yeah, I think so.
The government's taking them back.
These guys are abusing their privilege and then they say, you know, these guys are making too much money.
Let's put the CEO in jail.
By the way, maybe we should be thinking...
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
They're onto something here.
Let's put these CEOs in jail.
Put the CEO in jail and take the company.
I do want to promote the End the Fed rally, which takes place today in 39 different cities in the United States.
Endthefed.us.
That's the root of all the problems, John.
That, by the way, reminds me of another thing I noticed out here.
They call it, and there may be some truth to that, because I was noticing on the Euronews here, when they refer to Bernicke, Bernanke?
Yeah, Bernanke, Bernanke, Bernanke, you say Bernanke.
Anyway, so they call him the head of the central bank.
Well, that's what he is.
Yeah, no, I know, I realize that, but it's like we wouldn't, the United States, we don't use that nomenclature.
No, of course not.
We always say, you know, it's the head of the Federal Reserve, it's like a committee, and it's got nothing, you know, it's just...
We have to use the word federal because then it sounds governmental, and that's part of the scam.
Yeah, Central Bank.
Which was set up in 1913?
Central Bank.
Yeah.
Well...
Yeah, it's highly amused.
Well, I'm not.
So I'm getting a sling box and a sling catcher.
You had to be in Portugal to figure that out?
I'm sorry, what?
No, no, I just came after I... We did this last show because we were talking about setting up sling boxes at either end so I could watch your TV. Yep.
But what you really want is...
I haven't hooked these up yet, so I don't know how difficult this is going to be.
I'll probably blog it or review it.
It's incredibly easy to set up.
Well, I'm talking about the sling catcher.
No, yeah.
I don't have the sling catcher.
The sling catcher lets you...
Yeah, it lets you receive it and put it back on your television, right?
Right.
So I could take your...
I can't signal and then put it on my TV as I was watching your set on my TV, not on the computer.
I guess it has other uses.
I guess like an Apple TV or something like that.
I'm not sure what all the things it can do are, but it costs as much as a sling box.
Probably does a few things.
Well, I'll go out and buy one this afternoon.
I'm doing a little bit of shopping anyway.
I have the Slim Box, but I want to get a separate Slim Box.
We've already gone through all of this, but I'm also ordering multiple lines.
I'm getting my cable modem.
I'm getting a DSL line.
You have to be careful these days because you get penalized as an uploader.
By these frickin' ISPs.
Oh, you're uploading too much, so we'll just break your connection.
You're probably doing something illegally.
Yes, which reminds me of the Tennessee story, which we might as well mention.
Okay, I don't know about that.
The state of Tennessee decided to put $9.8 million plus a recurring $1.5 million into the university system.
Oh, yeah, to monitor for file sharing.
So in other words, instead of giving the money for education...
Yeah, to learn something.
They basically, at the behest of the RIAA, which if they're going to let the RIAA put in $10 million, As opposed to the idiots at the state of Tennessee, the state should be ashamed of itself and they should get that governor who's apparently behind the whole thing out of office.
I mean, what kind of an idiot is going to spend taxpayer money for something like this to monitor, to do police work for the benefit of file sharing?
John, hold on one second.
You just started to sound like RoboCop for a moment there.
Yeah, I know you're breaking up, too.
I think as we get into the hour here, the...
That's not even worth what you're saying.
Hold on.
I'm going to call you back.
All right?
All right.
You there?
Don't tell me I lost you.
No, I'm here.
Okay, good.
Yeah, we're back.
We're back.
All right.
Yeah, well, we're going to have to wrap anyway because I've got to take off, and I think the connection is going to fall apart.
But anyway, just the Tennessee store.
It's on the blog, dvorak.org slash blog.
Check it out.
Alright, so...
Oh, man.
You only want to do an hour with me.
It's just because you're going to go take pictures with some guys.
It's actually a whole good group of photographers who are going to go shoot Lisbon.
That's funny.
So you travel around like a bunch of guys with fanny packs and you're taking pictures of shit?
Like Japanese tourists?
Exactly.
With expensive cameras.
Except you.
You'll have your little cyber shot thingy there.
And I brought the big camera.
Really?
I didn't know you had a big unit.
I have an Olympus 520.
Ooh, nice.
Very nice.
What's really nice is an 11-22mm lens I have, which is an astonishing product.
Yeah.
Yeah, whatever.
Not really into cameras.
I got some good cameras.
So somebody told me that our outro theme was depressing.
Really?
Yes, I get so depressed hearing it.
Maybe they're just depressed because the show is over.
I think that must be it.
It's not depressing.
It has that nice little subtle thing.
And I know that people are just sitting there just listening to it all the way to the very last tone and thinking, ah, wow.
Wow, it was a good show.
I can't wait until the next one.
Yeah.
Okay, well, I think that's about it.
I feel strangely unsatisfied.
Well, it could have gone another half-hour, but we'll hit the whole thing next week.
All right.
Well, I'll be here.
You're going to be back in San Francisco, I hope, because I need you to have your American News hat on.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
All right.
Well, so you're flying back through Frankfurt again?
They changed my flight, so I don't know, but if I go through London, I'll try to stop off.
Yeah, please do.
When is that, tomorrow or Monday?
Tomorrow.
Okay.
Well, let me know, because the airport is literally, Heathrow and Gatwick both are like 30 minutes away, so.
Good.
If you have a layover or whatever.
Okay.
And call me, I won't pick up, and enjoy your time at Heathrow Airport.
All right, John.
Listen, have a great day.
Have a safe flight back.
And I look forward to talking longer next time.
Okay.
All right.
So, that wraps it up.
Coming to you from the United Kingdom, the affluent suburb of Surrey, and Guilford, I'm Adam Curry.
And I'm John C. Dvorak in Lisbon, Portugal.
We'll talk to you again next week, right here, on No Agenda.
Enjoy the depressive theme.
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