The Matt Walsh Show - Matt Walsh Has An Honest Conversation With Andrew Klavan: Making Conservative Art
Aired: 2024-10-19
Duration: 21:47


=== The Creative Process Begins (12:59) ===

[00:00:00]  - - Well, sitting here with someone you may have heard of, Andrew Klavan, this...
[00:00:19]  Set is way too nice for an interview with you, I guess.
[00:00:21]  I think it is.
[00:00:22]  I'm actually out of my league here.
[00:00:23]  We stepped it up way too much.
[00:00:25]  We've got to dial it back a little bit.
[00:00:28]  So, you have a book that just came out, A Woman Underground is what it's called.
[00:00:32]  I wanted to talk to you about kind of the creative process.
[00:00:35]  First of all, it goes into writing books because I'm just fascinated by that.
[00:00:39]  And then some other things.
[00:00:40]  But before we get into that, so what...
[00:00:42]  And there's the book right there.
[00:00:44]  Tell us about the book, first of all.
[00:00:45]  Well, this is the fourth book in the Cameron Winter series.
[00:00:48]  And it's kind of the crisis book.
[00:00:50]  Cameron Winter's kind of unsteady mentally is kind of cracking up.
[00:00:55]  And he finds that the woman that he...
[00:00:59]  Loved his whole life, this kind of flame that he's kept and he's lost track of her.
[00:01:04]  He finds her.
[00:01:05]  He realizes she's still around and he starts looking for her and as he starts looking for her, he realizes that a killer is looking for her at the same time and he has to see if he can find her before that.
[00:01:15]  It also takes place in the midst of riots and extremist politics and kind of an America like this America, but a little bit dialed up.
[00:01:24]  So it's not a political novel, but it's a novel that has a lot of politics in it.
[00:01:27]  So that book's probably, what, 280 pages or so?
[00:01:30]  Yeah, it's close to 300, yeah.
[00:01:33]  And I've written a few books.
[00:01:35]  None of them were very good.
[00:01:37]  But nonfiction, and I want to talk about that too, because we're talking off air a little bit about nonfiction versus fiction.
[00:01:43]  I can't even wrap my head around writing a novel, like writing a story.
[00:01:48]  I can't, I just can't even, I wouldn't know where to begin.
[00:01:51]  And you've written, how many novels have you written?
[00:01:54]  Over 30, yeah.
[00:01:55]  Yeah.
[00:01:56]  So...
[00:01:58]  I don't even know how to ask the question exactly, but how do you organize your mind to sit down and start writing that book?
[00:02:05]  What's the actual process that ends with that book sitting there?
[00:02:09]  Well, you start out a lot of times with a what if.
[00:02:11]  What if this happened?
[00:02:13]  What if the only woman you ever loved came back in your life but was in trouble?
[00:02:16]  What if you walked in to look at your baby and make sure she was okay and she was gone?
[00:02:22]  What if some wild thing just pops into your head?
[00:02:26]  And you kind of let it just sit, you know, sometimes for years and until it finds the perfect person to be in the story.
[00:02:35]  Which is one of the interesting things about writing a series is you have to have stories that actually resonate with the character.
[00:02:40]  Because you don't care if a guy solves a mystery.
[00:02:44]  You only care what happens to people internally.
[00:02:47]  So for me, everything has to work perfectly.
[00:02:49]  As a character thing.
[00:02:51]  So even if I have a fight scene or a chase scene or something, it has to be important to the guy internally.
[00:02:56]  Because it's a book, it's not a movie.
[00:02:58]  It's like you can't just watch something and think, that's exciting.
[00:03:00]  So as it unfolds, you think, what would happen if this?
[00:03:04]  You usually come up with some kind of ending.
[00:03:06]  And then you start to build the steps that go on.
[00:03:08]  And it's always about the character and the story, for me.
[00:03:11]  It's always like, you know...
[00:03:13]  It's always, why is this hard for this guy to do?
[00:03:16]  You know, not just why is it hard to do, but why does it challenge this guy?
[00:03:20]  And so, Winter is a very psychologically oriented character.
[00:03:24]  You know, he's kind of trying to fix his...
[00:03:25]  He used to be a government assassin, essentially, and now he's come back to the country, and the country is kind of falling apart.
[00:03:31]  It's corrupt.
[00:03:32]  He starts to wonder, what was I doing?
[00:03:34]  You know, what was I fighting for?
[00:03:35]  And it makes him unravel, you know?
[00:03:37]  So you have to really be dealing with the guy from the inside out.
[00:03:40]  And that's the way it gets built over time.
[00:03:43]  Do you outline it?
[00:03:45]  I do, yeah.
[00:03:46]  A lot of people just sit down and write, but I know everything I'm going to say before I say it.
[00:03:50]  How long does it take you to write that?
[00:03:52]  This one, it takes about a year from start to finish.
[00:03:55]  Including editing and all that?
[00:03:56]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:58]  Including various drafts, yeah.
[00:04:00]  And you've also written, of course, screenplays.
[00:04:03]  Yep.
[00:04:04]  Takes six weeks, and you get paid better.
[00:04:07]  Yeah, so I assume it's a quicker process, because there's a lot less writing that goes into it, but...
[00:04:12]  Is even like the creative, the way you think about it, is that different too?
[00:04:16]  Are you also starting with a what-if and building it out, or is it a different...
[00:04:19]  You do start with that, but first of all, the characters...
[00:04:22]  The first film I ever did was called Shock to the System.
[00:04:25]  It was based on a novel by Simon Brett.
[00:04:28]  And I... I was a novelist, so I wrote it like a novel.
[00:04:30]  I did long, long character sketches, and what was he going to be like?
[00:04:34]  They hired Michael Caine to be in it, and I saw the first day of Rush's, you know, the first rough cut of it, and Michael came in and I thought, what was I doing?
[00:04:41]  Michael Caine creates the character.
[00:04:42]  It's going to be Michael Caine.
[00:04:43]  You know, it's going to be whatever he says it's going to be.
[00:04:45]  So it's much, much easier.
[00:04:47]  It's kind of like building the frame to something, and the director and the actors all put it together.
[00:04:51]  And seriously, if it takes you six weeks to write a screenplay, It's probably because you were busy doing something else.
[00:05:00]  There's very few words.
[00:05:02]  It is kind of, every word that appears on screen has to be great.
[00:05:06]  So every line of dialogue has to be great.
[00:05:08]  But the descriptions only have to convince people in Hollywood to buy it.
[00:05:12]  They don't have to be that good.
[00:05:13]  So it's much easier.
[00:05:15]  What drew you into novels, to writing novels to begin with?
[00:05:18]  I just loved them as a kid.
[00:05:19]  I just loved them.
[00:05:21]  They formed a lot of my role models for what a guy was like, should be like.
[00:05:27]  I started reading tough guy detective stories, Raymond Chandler, Philip Marlowe stories, The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett.
[00:05:36]  And those are the kind of guys who kind of spoke to me because I was kind of living in this suburb, this leafy suburb and everything like this.
[00:05:41]  And I thought, no, these are the guys who like never bend.
[00:05:45]  They never bend.
[00:05:45]  And like Raymond Chandler had this great essay about his character.
[00:05:49]  He invented the phrase mean streets.
[00:05:52]  And he said, down these mean streets, a man must go who is not himself mean.
[00:05:56]  And I must have been 15 when I read that.
[00:05:58]  And I thought, bingo.
[00:06:00]  That's what I want to be like.
[00:06:01]  And so I just started creating stories about those kind of characters.
[00:06:05]  I'm not like that, but I create stories about those characters.
[00:06:07]  What do you think it takes to be a good writer?
[00:06:10]  What does it require?
[00:06:12]  The first thing is, some people have talent, and some people don't.
[00:06:16]  You can just see it the minute you start reading.
[00:06:18]  And I always had a gift for it.
[00:06:19]  I always had an ability to do it.
[00:06:21]  And then I did stuff...
[00:06:23]  If you don't have the talent, you think it's just...
[00:06:25]  There are some people, you just don't have it, and that's it?
[00:06:27]  There are some people who have no talent, except that they know how to build crappy stories that people will buy, and they make a lot of money.
[00:06:33]  And that's all good, but I can't get past page three, because the minute I start reading, I think this is garbage, you know?
[00:06:39]  I won't name them, but there are a lot of them on the bestsellers list, you know?
[00:06:43]  Why don't you name them?
[00:06:44]  Name one.
[00:06:45]  No, I can't.
[00:06:45]  Okay.
[00:06:46]  I can't even name one.
[00:06:47]  But they know who they are.
[00:06:49]  Well...
[00:06:50]  I don't want to go off on a different tangent, but I think about this a lot too, about talent.
[00:06:55]  Do you think, because this applies in many fields, especially in the creative field, and I think I generally believe that it's like you either have it or you don't.
[00:07:07]  And if you don't have it, you never will.
[00:07:10]  Is it possible to, you don't have it, and then to somehow gain it?
[00:07:14]  No.
[00:07:15]  You know, I have this magic touch because I grew up, my father was a famous DJ, and I grew up in radio, and I have a magic ability to hear broadcasting talent.
[00:07:26]  So the first time I heard Shapiro...
[00:07:28]  On the air, I actually got in touch with him and I said, you know, you could have a big career.
[00:07:32]  He was on some little, you know, L.A. station doing a show with three people in it.
[00:07:37]  And I said, they should take those other two people off the air.
[00:07:40]  And, you know, you have it.
[00:07:43]  Knowles can pretend to have it.
[00:07:45]  I was just talking to Glenn Beck today.
[00:07:47]  Glenn Beck is the greatest broadcaster alive.
[00:07:51]  And before I went on the air, I was on the phone listening to his commercials.
[00:07:55]  And I was embarrassed that I ever went near a microphone just listening to Beck work because he just has this thing.
[00:08:00]  It just comes across the mic.
[00:08:03]  And look, you know, in your movie, I can see it.
[00:08:06]  I can see that you have this way of communicating through the camera.
[00:08:09]  It's just something people have or they don't have.
[00:08:10]  You cannot buy that.
[00:08:12]  You cannot buy it.
[00:08:13]  You can hone it, you know?
[00:08:14]  Like Kevin Costner Doesn't work very hard.
[00:08:18]  He strolls on and he's handsome.
[00:08:20]  There are a lot of people these days having a fair amount of success in creative fields, even though they have no talent for them at all.
[00:08:27]  They suck, yeah.
[00:08:28]  Because we don't...
[00:08:29]  We don't reward talent.
[00:08:31]  People reward stuff that fits in with the narrative and all these things.
[00:08:36]  It's really interesting for me, because the other thing now, after all these years, I can tell a good writer when I see one, and you can read one paragraph, and you just think, this is garbage.
[00:08:46]  But it might have something that the audience is going to like, and it is a business, and if you sell copies, you sell copies.
[00:08:52]  What tells you in one paragraph, so in one paragraph you can tell if someone's a good writer.
[00:08:56]  Yeah.
[00:08:57]  What are you looking for in a paragraph?
[00:08:58]  It's not something you're looking for.
[00:09:00]  It's a kind of magic that just comes across.
[00:09:02]  The scene leaps to life.
[00:09:05]  One of the things that people keep saying about this is they start it and they can't finish it.
[00:09:09]  That's because I'm good at what I do.
[00:09:11]  You can see it immediately that I'm in the story.
[00:09:14]  I see the things that they're describing and they're kind of Resonate with me.
[00:09:19]  And then you can see somebody who's just phoning it in or working really hard but just doesn't have what it takes.
[00:09:25]  We were talking off air a little bit about non-fiction versus fiction.
[00:09:28]  You were saying it's the challenges of not only writing fiction but also getting people to read fiction.
[00:09:34]  Wow, especially in the right, yeah.
[00:09:35]  Yeah, and I'm totally a culprit here because I generally only read non-fiction.
[00:09:44]  I'll go through weird phases.
[00:09:45]  I went through a weird phase like Eight years ago where I just got into Russian literature and I started reading Dostoevsky.
[00:09:51]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:52]  Tolstoy.
[00:09:52]  And then I'm not interested anymore and then I go on to nonfiction.
[00:09:57]  But I also recognize that that's a problem.
[00:10:00]  I know that there's real value in reading fiction and this idea that you should only read nonfiction because you're learning.
[00:10:06]  You're learning about a thing that actually happened.
[00:10:07]  Right.
[00:10:08]  There's only value in that.
[00:10:09]  I think that's kind of the thought process, especially if conservatives only read nonfiction.
[00:10:13]  That's sort of my thought process, but I also recognize that that's not right.
[00:10:16]  What's the value of fiction?
[00:10:19]  Fiction grows your life.
[00:10:20]  There's just no question about it.
[00:10:22]  If you read really good fiction, and it can be genre fiction, be fantasy, mysteries, all these things, if it's really good, it grows your life.
[00:10:29]  You get to turn off all the things that are usually on in life.
[00:10:34]  Your moral sense, your anxiety, your worries about things.
[00:10:38]  All of a sudden you just can observe the world and experience the world.
[00:10:43]  Fiction is an experience.
[00:10:44]  It's not an actual thought process.
[00:10:45]  You read something and you live it.
[00:10:47]  Somebody dies.
[00:10:47]  You cry.
[00:10:48]  Somebody murders somebody.
[00:10:49]  You're afraid.
[00:10:50]  You're horrified.
[00:10:51]  So it's an actual experience.
[00:10:53]  And then you have an experience that you would never have had in your life.
[00:10:56]  And you get to live it without having to make decisions about it.
[00:11:02]  And somehow, like I've read a lot of fiction, I've been reading it all my life, and somehow you just know life better afterwards.
[00:11:08]  It's an amazing, amazing thing.
[00:11:10]  And conservatives are very practical people a lot of times and also very suspicious people.
[00:11:17]  Why are you telling me this if it's not true?
[00:11:21]  And it's really interesting.
[00:11:22]  And men read less fiction than women, and I'm kind of a man's writer.
[00:11:26]  And so it really is a challenge.
[00:11:30]  I've written a couple of nonfiction books, and you can get interviews on every conservative...
[00:11:36]  there is, you know, they know who I am, they wanna talk to me, and here I am talking about a subject, they have a book, they get that.
[00:11:42]  But if you have a book that's fiction, a story, they don't understand, unless it has a news hook, they don't understand what it's about.
[00:11:50]  There are a few exceptions, Glenn Beck is one of them, Glenn Beck reads fiction, so when he talks to you, you actually know, he actually knows what you're doing.
[00:11:57]  Rush Limbaugh used to read a certain kind of fiction.
[00:12:00]  But most conservative guys are like, you know, we're moralists.
[00:12:05]  And so fiction is beyond morality.
[00:12:08]  It's kind of a meta thing.
[00:12:09]  The morality you get from it is understanding life better.
[00:12:12]  And so that's a moral enterprise.
[00:12:14]  but fiction can have bad guys who win and good guys who lose and unfair things that happen and drives conservatives crazy.
[00:12:21]  You know, we talk a big game about traditional values, but how many of us are actually walking the walk when it comes to prayer?
[00:12:27]  Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment.
[00:12:28]  Most of us are about as consistent with our prayer life as Congress is with balancing the budget.
[00:12:33]  We've all been there.
[00:12:34]  Prayer feels so daunting to get started.
[00:12:35]  We end up not doing it at all.
[00:12:37]  Make excuses.
[00:12:38]  I'm too busy.
[00:12:39]  I don't know how.
[00:12:39]  I'll do it tomorrow.
[00:12:40]  The list goes on.
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=== Liberal Arts and Discipline (09:02) ===

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[00:13:32]  What do you say to the argument that the novel has been replaced these days by shows and films and that's sort of our version of the novel?
[00:13:40]  Yeah, I think...
[00:13:41]  Is that the same value?
[00:13:42]  No, there's nothing as intimate as the novel.
[00:13:44]  There's nothing like...
[00:13:45]  There's nothing at 3 o'clock in the morning when you're alone, you can actually connect with another mind in a novel and it's just incredibly direct.
[00:13:55]  Michael Caine creates a character, but now you're no longer reading me.
[00:13:58]  I wrote what he said, but now you're getting it interpreted by Michael Caine.
[00:14:03]  Where this, you're getting something direct.
[00:14:04]  You're getting a vision of life direct.
[00:14:07]  When you pay attention and when it's done well, it's a remarkable experience.
[00:14:11]  And people who love novels will tell you that you just get carried away in a way you don't anywhere else.
[00:14:16]  And so the novel is now no longer what it was when I was a kid, which was the major form of entertainment.
[00:14:23]  I mean, that's the movies.
[00:14:24]  Actually, even when I was a kid, it was still the movies.
[00:14:27]  But it's still different.
[00:14:29]  It's like theater.
[00:14:30]  You know, theater is not the main form of entertainment, but there's nothing like going on and seeing a live play, seeing an actor work live.
[00:14:36]  It's remarkable.
[00:14:37]  And there's nothing like picking up a story that's going directly from one mind to another.
[00:14:42]  Do you think there are any television shows that have almost made it to the level of a novel in terms of the intimacy of the storytelling and the depth of it?
[00:14:51]  Nothing is intimate, but there are some that have been as complex, like The Sopranos, I think, was up there.
[00:14:58]  When I watched The Sopranos, I knew I was watching a work of art.
[00:15:01]  When I watched a couple of seasons of Game of Thrones, I thought that.
[00:15:06]  TV has just gotten so much better than it used to be.
[00:15:09]  When you go back and look at television, it's amazing how bad it was.
[00:15:12]  And it really has gotten better.
[00:15:15]  But it still hasn't got that utter engagement that you get with a book, for me.
[00:15:20]  Now, I hate to pay you a compliment, but you're a real writer.
[00:15:25]  You're a good writer.
[00:15:27]  I'm an actual writer, yeah.
[00:15:28]  So you're an artist?
[00:15:29]  Yes.
[00:15:31]  There's not a lot of company.
[00:15:32]  You don't have a lot of company on the right, especially among conservative commentators.
[00:15:40]  A lot of conservative commentators write books, and 99% of them are just god-awful terrible books.
[00:15:48]  Why is that?
[00:15:49]  Why is it so rare?
[00:15:52]  You know, actually, this book is a good answer to this question.
[00:15:57]  This is a book in which it's about American life now.
[00:16:01]  And so it has to have politics in it, right?
[00:16:03]  It has to have people on the right and people on the left and the kind of tensions that we're all living with now.
[00:16:07]  You can't write about contemporary America without writing about politics.
[00:16:12]  But the main character has no politics.
[00:16:14]  He doesn't care.
[00:16:15]  It's one of the running gags.
[00:16:17]  People keep trying to convince him of their politics.
[00:16:19]  And he just says, I don't care.
[00:16:20]  I'm just looking for this girl.
[00:16:21]  I just want to find this girl.
[00:16:23]  To do that takes a lot of discipline.
[00:16:27]  You really have to understand what the novel is about to not tell people what to think, but to let the experience live.
[00:16:34]  And conservatives want to tell you what to think.
[00:16:36]  And so do leftists.
[00:16:37]  That's why so much left-wing art is crap.
[00:16:40]  It's like they want to preach to you about what's right and what's wrong.
[00:16:43]  And I just want each character to sort of make his case in the story.
[00:16:47]  I mean, this has a main character and you live in his head.
[00:16:50]  But there are a lot of characters and they're very different.
[00:16:52]  And every time one of them opens his mouth, you're getting an entirely different consciousness and an entirely different way of looking at the world.
[00:16:58]  And that's not something political people are very comfortable with.
[00:17:02]  I mean, it is the way I look at the world.
[00:17:04]  Even when I'm talking about politics, I kind of look at the world like I understand there are people who disagree and see it from a different way and all that stuff.
[00:17:11]  And they should be in prison, of course, but that's not the way I write a novel.
[00:17:14]  When I write a novel, I put it all aside and just let the characters live in the story.
[00:17:18]  It's hard to do.
[00:17:19]  Yeah.
[00:17:20]  I mean, it's true that the extreme left has the same problem, which is why they do terrible art these days.
[00:17:25]  But also, you don't have to go back that far to find a time when liberals were...
[00:17:30]  Making great art.
[00:17:31]  At least films and shows and even music.
[00:17:35]  And it does just seem that like...
[00:17:41]  Only liberals were doing it.
[00:17:44]  It's like almost all the great artists...
[00:17:48]  Certainly in modern American culture have been liberals and probably if you go back historically all the great ones were liberal by their own standards.
[00:17:56]  But liberal is different than leftist.
[00:17:58]  I think you're right that you have to be liberal in the sense that you allow each person to be himself.
[00:18:05]  You know, I don't know about you, but I always get these letters.
[00:18:07]  How can I convince so-and-so to believe so-and-so?
[00:18:09]  And I think, you know, just leave them alone, you know, just be who they are, which is what art is about in a lot of ways is letting people, you know, I don't think Shakespeare was a villain, but when he wrote Macbeth, he let Macbeth be this complete person who had motives for what he was doing and a reason for being in a way of looking at things.
[00:18:25]  And so it is, you do have to be liberal in that sense.
[00:18:29]  But there are plenty of political conservatives that keep their heads down who have been great artists.
[00:18:34]  I mean, Cormac McCarthy just died.
[00:18:35]  I'm absolutely positive he was a conservative.
[00:18:38]  And, you know, he never came out about it.
[00:18:40]  I don't know if you saw that thing with Kubrick, Stanley Kubrick, where they were objecting to the fact that Donald Trump used Full Metal Jacket in one of his ads.
[00:18:50]  And Kubrick's daughter came out and said he voted for Reagan.
[00:18:52]  He would have loved Trump.
[00:18:54]  And he just kept it quiet.
[00:18:55]  So there are a lot more politically conservative artists But you can't be conservative in the sense that you believe there's only one way to live or that anybody who disagrees...
[00:19:05]  I mean, for instance, I'm an ardent anti-feminist, but this book has a feminist in it who's an absolutely lovely person and who the hero, who's a very patriarchal guy, he loves her.
[00:19:18]  He thinks she's a wonderful person, even though he can't stand anything she writes or says.
[00:19:22]  You have to be liberal in that sense, I think, to create art.
[00:19:26]  We've got to wrap it up.
[00:19:27]  How do you think we get conservatives more involved in art?
[00:19:32]  Well, I've been banging this drum for 20 years.
[00:19:34]  This is why I started talking about this.
[00:19:36]  Because when I lived in England for a long time and I came back and found our culture so sickened and twisted that I was shocked.
[00:19:43]  And so I started giving speeches to conservative groups saying, you know, this is about the movies.
[00:19:47]  This is not about winning elections.
[00:19:49]  This is about talking to people about what life is really like and showing them what life is like.
[00:19:55]  20 years ago, when I started doing that, they looked at me like I was nuts.
[00:19:58]  Like, they kind of thought I was cute because I was working in Hollywood, and I dressed all in black, and they thought, like, wow, this is cool, you know, Hollywood guy.
[00:20:05]  But they had no idea what I was talking about.
[00:20:06]  Today they do.
[00:20:07]  Today they get it.
[00:20:08]  They still think that what we need is more propaganda movies that'll sell, you know, conservatism.
[00:20:14]  But it's starting to change.
[00:20:16]  I mean, this place, look at this place.
[00:20:17]  I mean, you made two cultural things.
[00:20:20]  I know they're nonfiction, but they're still cultural works.
[00:20:24]  Jeremy understands, obviously, that movies have to be created by people like us.
[00:20:30]  That's the important thing.
[00:20:30]  It's not that we write conservative things, it's that conservatives make stuff.
[00:20:34]  So I think it's changing, and I think I would describe it as a field of ice with little...
[00:20:40]  Spriggs, you know, popping up through it.
[00:20:42]  So I'm kind of hopeful about it.
[00:20:44]  And I just think you've got to keep explaining to conservatives what art is and the fact that conservative art is not like conservative life.
[00:20:51]  You know, I live a conservative life.
[00:20:53]  I'm a married man, a family man, a religious man.
[00:20:55]  I, you know, love my country.
[00:20:57]  That's the life I live.
[00:20:58]  But that's not what art is about.
[00:20:59]  Art is about, like, you know, dramatic things that happen because of clashes of personality.
[00:21:04]  And that's a very different thing.
[00:21:06]  And it's like I said, it enlarges your life.
[00:21:08]  The people who wrote The Constitution and the Declaration read Shakespeare, they read Euripides, they read the Greeks, they read art.
[00:21:18]  That's why they had that broad way of looking at life that helped them to form a government.
[00:21:23]  And if you read the Federalist Papers, those were written by people who understand what people are like, and people like that have read the arts.
[00:21:32]  Where can people buy the book?
[00:21:33]  Anywhere?
[00:21:33]  Anywhere.
[00:21:34]  If you get it, you can get it at our shop, the Daily Wire shop, so I should say that out of loyalty.
[00:21:38]  If you get it on Amazon and move it up the list, that helps it a little bit.
[00:21:41]  Good talking to you.
[00:21:42]  It's always great talking to you.
[00:21:43]  Have you met my wife?