Ep. 156 - Christian Artist Doesn't Know If Homosexuality Is A Sin
Lauren Daigle, a popular Christian pop artist, gave an absurd answer when asked about homosexuality in an interview. Let's talk about the answer she should have given. Also, let's talk about the strange hostility Daigle encountered from many Christians even before this interview. She made a mistake, but many of her critics are making a mistake, too. Date: 12-05-2018
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Today on the show, a famous Christian pop artist is asked about homosexuality and it doesn't go well.
Shocker.
But there are several issues tied up in this story and I want to talk about all that and we'll do that today on The Matt Walsh Show.
All right, a lot of people have asked for my opinion on this Lauren Daigle situation.
Lauren Daigle, just for some background, is a Christian singer.
She's exploded in popularity over the last year or so.
She found a lot of success in the mainstream as well, and this has not sat well with some, maybe many, of her Christian fans.
And then Daigle went on Ellen a couple of weeks ago, and the criticisms From many fans were ramped up even more because she appeared on Ellen and the woman was
She's basically been ripped to shreds for how she dresses, for the shows that she appears on, for the way she speaks, and so on and so on.
Some people have even apparently watched her on TV giving interviews, and they've counted, they kept track, like I guess they have a notepad, they're keeping track of the number of times that she says the word Jesus, and she doesn't say it enough, they've decided so that she's been criticized for that.
That was all leading up to leading up to this week.
And I've been on the record saying, and I'm not, you know, Lauren Daigle is, it's not my kind of music, so I'm not really a fan.
I can't call myself a fan of hers.
I think she's a good singer, but just not my type of music.
But I have kind of noticed some of these criticisms, especially around when she appeared on Ellen.
And I've been on the record saying that I think a lot of that is just petty And it's kind of embarrassing for Christians.
It just makes us look petty and ridiculous.
But then, this week, she was interviewed on a radio show, and she was asked, straight up, whether she thinks homosexuality is a sin.
And this was the answer she gave.
She said, I can't honestly answer on that. In a sense, I have too many people that I love and they are homosexual.
I don't know. I actually had a conversation with someone last night about it. I can't say one way or another. I'm
not God.
So when people ask questions like that, that's my go-to.
Like I just say, read the Bible and find out for yourself.
And then when you find out, let me know because I'm learning too.
Thank you.
Now, this answer is obviously absurd.
The Bible is clear on the subject.
There's no ambiguity.
There are issues that are more theologically complex and less obvious when you look at the text, but this is not one of those issues.
The Old and New Testaments are clear about the sinfulness of the Homosexual Act.
Romans 1.26-28 is just one example.
There are many others.
I agree with Lauren Daigle in the sense that, yeah, go read the Bible and see it for yourself.
Now, Daigle, though, says that she doesn't know what the Bible says.
And that's kind of hard to believe.
If it's true, though, if it's true that she doesn't know what the Bible says, then her knowledge of the Bible is very sorely lacking.
And if she's going to make music and make lots of money making music that's supposed to worship a glorified God, then you would think she'd want to know who God is.
And in order to do that, she needs to go read the Bible.
But if it isn't true, okay, if she knows what the Bible says, but she said she doesn't know, then she's not being honest, and either way, it's just not good.
Now, like I said, she sat in there, read the Bible, and find out for herself.
That part is good, and that was a good part.
Now, if she had just said that and left it there, And said, hey, listen, you can read the Bible yourself and find out about that.
That would have been kind of a dodge, but I think it would have been an acceptable dodge, because at the end of the day, she's encouraging you to go read the Bible.
And so I would say, fine.
Or, you know, I think even better, and maybe this is just a tip for anyone else out there who is uncomfortable with this question, but maybe asked it, You know, if you're a person of some prominence, then you could just be honest.
I think honesty is a good policy.
And you could say, listen, The Bible says that it's a sin.
I personally struggle with that.
I struggle to balance that with the love that I have for my gay friends and my gay family members and so on.
So that's something that I struggle with, and it's a balance that I'm trying to strike.
And to be honest, there are times when I don't really understand why it's a sin, but I accept The truth of God's Word, and I pray that He'll help me to better understand it.
And I hope that you will pray for me also.
You know, I think an answer like that, because I think that's basically what Lauren Daigle was getting at.
And if she had just said that, it would have been honest, and how could you criticize her?
She's being honest in that case, and she's saying, look, there are things in the Bible that we all struggle with.
So you can be honest and just say it, as long as at the end of the day you're still affirming the Bible as the authority and you're not lying and saying you don't know what's in the Bible when, of course, you darn well do know.
So that would have been fine, but that's not the answer that she gave.
She gave an answer that was quite different than that.
And the whole thing of, I'm not God, you know, that just makes no sense.
That is the silliest way of deflecting, because of course you aren't God.
But if you're a Christian, then you believe that God's view on the subject has been revealed in Scripture.
And if you're a Christian, then you believe that our view, your view, should conform to God's view.
And if it doesn't conform, then that's a struggle, that's something you need to pray about.
If you don't believe either of those two things that I just said, that God's Word is revealed in Scripture, or that our view should conform with God's view, if you don't believe either of those two things, then in what sense are you Christian?
You see, that's the thing here.
People say, well, it's not black and white.
It is black and white when it comes to something like this, because the Bible does clearly say, repeatedly, that homosexuality is a sin.
So, as a Christian, you either accept that, or you don't.
You either accept it humbly, or you don't.
And if you don't accept it, then what you're saying is, the parts of the Bible that articulate this view of homosexuality, those parts are wrong.
And if you're saying those parts are wrong, then either you're saying that God is wrong, Which is another way of saying that he's not God.
Or you're saying that the Bible does not actually fully and truly reflect God's truth.
And if you're saying that, then where else in the Bible is it not reflected?
You're saying that that part of the Bible is fallible.
You've just kind of decreed that.
Well, then what other parts of the Bible is fallible?
And if any part of the Bible is fallible in that sense, in the sense that it communicates something that is simply wrong, On a moral truth.
If that's what you're saying, then you have just made the Bible itself fallible.
And you just can't do that.
So, when a Christian calls something a sin, they're not claiming any kind of special divine authority.
So it would be like if you asked me, is tax evasion illegal?
It wouldn't make any sense for me to answer, hey man, I'm not a lawmaker, okay?
That's not up to me to decide.
I don't decide what's illegal or legal.
Yeah, well, I don't have the power to make something legal or illegal, but I don't need to have that power.
I don't need to be a lawmaker to simply identify the things that the real lawmakers have made legal or illegal.
And the same is true of the divine lawmakers.
So yes, it's true that Lauren Daigle isn't God, but that doesn't mean that Lauren Daigle needs to be God in order to identify a sin.
She can still identify it according to what God has said, and if she chooses not to, then there must be some other reason.
It's not that she's not God.
There's another reason why she's not identifying it.
Now, with that said, I must also mention that In my opinion, the manner and the tone and the tenor and the volume of the criticism that Daigle has faced from Christians has been a bit over the top.
And even before this unfortunate interview answer, she was, as I said, constantly harangued and scolded for every little petty thing.
And then, once she gave this answer, I could detect from some Christians—not all, but some—almost something like glee.
Like they were happy.
They seemed happy that she said this, because it vindicated their own criticisms of her.
So they said, See?
I told you so!
She's a heretic!
Yes!
She's a heretic!
Yes!
Now, they obviously didn't say that explicitly, but that was kind of the tone.
And I'm, you know, I'm uncomfortable with that.
Here's the thing.
Until you have actually faced backlash from the Christian community, deserved or undeserved backlash, but until you've faced it on a larger scale, then you really don't understand how vile and petty and venomous it can be.
Okay, I have faced it.
I'm not going to rehash it all now, but when I took my stance on how to interpret the book of Genesis, in particular the creation story, and a lot of Christians decided that my view was unbiblical, the response from a lot of Christians was just Absolutely disgusting, to be honest.
Not across the board, but across much of the board.
There were a lot of people that it didn't seem like they were looking to defend God's Word.
It's more these were prideful, resentful people.
who seem to take a certain glee in tearing me apart.
And not just me, but just tearing somebody apart.
Because they think they've detected that someone is wrong about something theologically, and so they can come up and prove how well they know their Bibles, and they can tear someone apart and, in that sense, prove how holy they are.
There was a lot of that.
I experienced a lot of that.
Not a little bit, but quite a lot.
Now, I don't think that my view on that topic is at all comparable to what Daigle said, so I'm not looking to draw any comparisons there.
I happen to think I was right biblically.
It's clear that Daigle is wrong.
But I only bring this up because, through that experience, I got a look at Christians from another angle.
And it was enlightening.
You know, it really was.
It was an eye-opening experience for me.
So when people say that Daigle gave that answer in order to avoid being attacked by the world, that's true, I'm sure.
That probably is why she gave that answer.
But have you ever been attacked by Christians?
Because that's no picnic either, I assure you.
It is just as vicious, just as intense, just as often slanderous and dishonest, and as I keep saying the word petty, but petty as well, to the exact same degree.
And I can compare it, because I've been attacked plenty from the world, from people who hate Christians and so on.
I've experienced those attacks plenty, and I've also got—not as often, but a few times—I've got it from the other side, and it's really indistinguishable.
It's the same. So, how should we approach Lauren Daigle as Christians?
I I think we need to correct her.
I think we need to affirm what the Bible says.
But we should do it with some grace and patience and forgiveness.
And we should realize that her response in that interview does not vindicate the petty, resentful attacks prior to this.
And we shouldn't be so incredibly eager to tear someone apart for stepping outside of whatever box we've set up.
And I'm not referring to her answer on homosexuality when I say that.
Okay?
Because that's not a box that we've set up.
That's, if you want to put it that way, that's the box that the Bible sets up.
But I'm referring more to all the other criticisms before that.
I don't like how she dresses.
I don't like the answer she gave there.
I don't think she should go on that show.
No, she shouldn't have gone on that award show.
Her music has changed.
She sounds too much like Adele now.
I don't like that.
I don't like that.
It's all that stuff.
As I said, it's embarrassing for us as Christians.
It just makes us look horrible.
And not in a good way, either.
Because I know you say, who cares what the world thinks of us?
Yeah.
It's not good if we look horrible because we're actually being horrible.
That's not good.
Because in that case, we should care what the world thinks of us in that situation.
Because if we actually are being horrible, and the world looks at that and sees it, we're giving them reasons to ignore us, and to ignore the faith, and to ignore the Bible.
And so it does matter, actually.
I think there's another thing we need to consider here as well.
I think we need to reevaluate Christianity as its own genre of entertainment.
You know, there are Christian singers and Christian shows and Christian movies.
Christianity is its own thing, its own genre.
And the problem, first of all, is that anyone can become a successful Christian artist in any of these mediums, Just by talking about Jesus in a song or in a movie.
And so it's like that South Park episode from years ago, where it's very easy to exploit the Christian genre and make lots of money because the theological and artistic standards are very low.
A relatively mediocre musical artist, no matter their actual religious views, can find enormous success in the Christian music world if they just tailor their songs to be a little bit more Jesus-y.
And so in that South Park episode, Cartman takes normal pop songs and just puts in the word Jesus here and there, and then he becomes this platinum-selling Christian artist.
And that's kind of how it goes, because the standards are so low.
Now, I think that Daigle is talented.
She's not mediocre.
As I said, I don't listen to her music.
It's not my kind of thing.
But she does have real talent.
Still, the point stands, generally speaking.
So, if we view Lauren Daigle not as a Christian artist of the Christian genre, but just as a pop artist who happens to sing about God sometimes, then her answer on homosexuality is a non-issue.
It doesn't matter.
Because she'd still be a person who makes relatively wholesome, family-friendly music, and her theological views would be of no consequence in that case.
We only see it as consequential because we see the Christian entertainment world as a ministry.
And then when someone in that ministry has heretical views on something, we react as though our pastor or our priest had those views.
But these are not pastors or priests, and this really is not a ministry.
The Christian entertainment world, that's a business, first and foremost, way before it's a ministry.
It seeks to make money, okay?
Which, again, is fine.
But it should do that without the pretension of being a ministry, because that's what I think gets people hung up, and that's where the confusion comes from.
You know, I think, ideally, there wouldn't be this delineation between Christian entertainment and regular entertainment.
That's the problem.
That shouldn't exist, really.
There was no such delineation for the first, say, I don't know, 1,980 years of Christianity.
For all that time, up until very recent times, you had artists and sculptors and playwrights and authors and poets and even filmmakers for a period of time who happened to be Christian.
And who would sometimes produce great and beautiful works of art that would glorify God.
They would produce religious art sometimes.
But they would also produce art that was less explicitly religious.
Because they were just artists, that's all.
They spoke whatever was in their hearts at the moment.
That's what they painted or sculpted or wrote about or whatever.
And that's it.
They were artists.
So back then, it didn't really matter as much if Da Vinci or Shakespeare or Dostoevsky or Dante or whoever happened to harbor personal views on some theological topics that were unorthodox or heretical.
It didn't really matter, because nobody looks at the personal life and the personal views of Dostoevsky and declares that, oh, okay, well, I guess crime and punishment is worthless because of that.
Nobody does that.
That's only the dynamic now, because Christianity has become its own business.
It's become its own genre.
And I think ultimately we need to get away from that.
So, to review, Lauren Daigle's answer on homosexuality was absurd.
Lauren Daigle is not a theological authority.
She should not be looked at that way.
Nobody ever should have expected that from her, and nobody should expect that from pop artists of any kind.
I think Lauren Daigle should be looked at as a pop artist, not a Christian artist.
And if we look at her that way, then who cares, really?
But at the same time, I think we as Christians also need to reevaluate the way that we respond in these situations.
And the image that we project to the world when we attack like hyenas anytime someone offends us or crosses us, even if we have legitimate reasons to criticize.
And with Lauren Daigle, I think there have been really illegitimate reasons to criticize, and now she's given us legitimate reasons.
But in both cases, I think we need to just look at how we respond.
And, you know, try to have a little bit of grace.
And I know, and I say all that, I know that certainly I speak first and foremost to myself, because I know I need to work on that.
But we all do.
We all do as well.
All right.
Thanks for watching.
Thanks for listening, everybody.
Godspeed.
I'm Michael Knowles, host of The Michael Knowles Show.
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