I don't understand evangelical atheism. If life is objectively meaningless, and we are but physical matter headed into an eternal oblivion, why do you care what other people believe? Why are you trying to convert us into unbelief? What does it matter? What does anything matter? Let's talk about it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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| Richard Dawkins is working on a children's book, which he hopes will indoctrinate children into atheism. | |
| This brings to mind a question that I've always wondered about. | |
| I find myself always perplexed by the sort of evangelical atheism espoused by guys like Dawkins. | |
| I'm not going to use Dawkins As the prime example, because I know that even atheists are embarrassed by Dawkins and for good reason. | |
| But he's far from the only evangelical atheists. | |
| This is a pretty common thing, especially among modern atheists. | |
| There are a great many of them Although they're less obnoxious than Richard Dawkins, I still find them just as perplexing because evangelical atheism, that is to go around preaching atheism and trying to convert people to it, just seems so pointless. | |
| And it seems like it is not really in the spirit of atheism to be evangelical about it. | |
| So I want to try to work through this and figure it out. | |
| And to begin, we have to go back to the basics and start with, what is atheism? | |
| What do atheists believe? | |
| Well, if you are an atheist, And if you are a rational atheist who has fully thought things through, and if you fully comprehend the implications of your worldview, then you must believe that life has no objective meaning or purpose. | |
| Now, you can infuse purpose and meaning into it subjectively, but objectively it has no great purpose, because in order for a thing to have a purpose, that purpose has to come from above it and beyond it. | |
| So a hammer that is just floating in the ocean by itself in the middle of the Pacific has no purpose. | |
| It's just there. | |
| It's just floating and it has no purpose whatsoever. | |
| What gives a hammer purpose, the reason why it has purpose is that there are nails to be hammered. | |
| And there is a person to pick up the hammer and use it to drive a nail into a board and to build like a house. | |
| And a house has a purpose because there are people to live in it. | |
| So there is this, in order to have purpose, there's something beyond, something above, something that kind of transcends it. | |
| So by that equation, people have purpose because why? | |
| What is the objective purpose of a person? | |
| Well, I would say our objective is that we have an objective purpose because we have a God to serve. | |
| But without God, the purpose can no longer be real, no longer be objective and solid. | |
| There is whatever purpose you can find, whatever makes you happy and numbs the pain. | |
| But in reality, we're just bags of meat floating in a random and infinite abyss. | |
| So if that hammer floating in the ocean were ever to unfortunately become self-aware, then I guess it will need to come up with some kind of subjective purpose for its existence floating in the ocean. | |
| Although I guess a hammer wouldn't really float in the ocean, would it? | |
| It would probably sink. But still. Let's say a hammer at the bottom of the ocean becomes self-aware. | |
| It may want to come up with some reason for its own existence just so it can deal with the terrible agony of its existence. | |
| But in reality, it has no purpose. | |
| It's just a thing down at the bottom of the ocean. | |
| On atheism, that's kind of what we all are. | |
| We're all just things. | |
| Floating around. The earth itself is just a thing careening through space. | |
| It's just a thing. We're all just things. | |
| So there can be no greater, no transcendent meaning to existence. | |
| Existence is just existence. | |
| We are all just the sum of our own parts. | |
| And our parts are material. | |
| Our parts are just stuff. | |
| Our stuff happens to be assembled this way. | |
| A hammer's stuff is assembled that way. | |
| A tree's stuff is assembled another way. | |
| A rock's stuff is assembled still another way. | |
| But objectively, our existence has no meaning that is greater than the meaning of a rock or a tree. | |
| It has no purpose greater than a rock or tree's purpose because we're all stuff. | |
| We are stuff that has come together by chance and which will soon disintegrate into the oblivion. | |
| And so that's it. | |
| Non-existence. | |
| You are, from the atheist view, heading into non-existence. | |
| The total cessation of being. | |
| All that you have ever done, everything you've ever thought, said, all of that will be erased and forgotten. | |
| Everything that you are will fade into the void and amount to nothing and mean nothing. | |
| Everyone you've ever loved, your spouse, your children, your parents, your friends, they're all headed for the same void and once they've entered it, they are gone. | |
| All is gone and all that's ever happened to you ultimately will mean and amount to nothing. | |
| This is the atheist view. | |
| Even if you don't go around saying it, that is your view. | |
| We are all just headed for nothingness, and once you are in the nothingness, nothing matters anymore. | |
| So then the question is, why do you care what people believe? | |
| If people find meaning in, as you say, a fairy tale, well, good for them! | |
| Why do you care? | |
| What possible reason could you have for caring that people believe in a fairy tale? | |
| Now, of course, I don't think religion is a fairy tale, but by your view it is. | |
| What I really can't understand is, if I were to ever adopt that view, why would I care what other people believe? | |
| Now, there's a reason why a Christian cares what you believe, because we believe that there is a life beyond this one, and what happens in that life beyond this one depends very much on what you believe and what you do in this life. | |
| And so that's why we're—you could say that we're crazy, you don't agree, but it makes sense why we are evangelical about it. | |
| It doesn't make any sense why you would be. | |
| Considering you and I both, in a few years, we're just nothing. | |
| What does it matter? So I believe a fairy tale. | |
| Let me believe the fairy tale. | |
| Why could you possibly care about this? | |
| What's the point? Karl Marx famously says that religion is the opium of the people. | |
| And okay, fine. | |
| So it's something that people find to give them hope and joy and pleasure in a meaningless life that comes to nothing in the end. | |
| So why would you try to step in the way of that? | |
| Why would you try to take that away from them? | |
| In fact, it's interesting that most atheists you talk to are going to be very libertarian about actual drugs, like actual opium. | |
| So they're going to say that, hey, if somebody wants to do heroin, let them do heroin. | |
| Yeah, it's hurting them. It might kill them. | |
| But if it makes them feel good, if it's what they want to do, it's their body, let them do it. | |
| It doesn't matter. So I don't understand how you could have that opinion about actual drugs that are actually directly physically killing people, and yet you don't have that view of this mental or spiritual drug as you see it. | |
| So, you have that view of actual opium, but the religious opium, you say, no, we must take that away from people. | |
| Why? Well, you might say that you do it because religion is a blight on the earth, and it's led to great suffering. | |
| Well, that's also true of drugs, by the way, and so... | |
| We'll leave that to the side. Okay. | |
| Now, that's not true, of course. | |
| Religion has sometimes been used as an excuse to hurt people. | |
| Certain religions are much more often used to that end than others. | |
| But atheist governments have also brought misery and death on the masses on an unprecedented scale, I might add. | |
| And if you know anything about even recent world history, you must realize that. | |
| And atheists themselves individually, I'm sure you would admit, are at least just as likely to commit acts of violence and evil as anyone else. | |
| So that means that you can't blame religion for bad things that happen. | |
| But also, you're an atheist, so you know that we're just animals. | |
| We are slaves to nature. | |
| And nature is harsh, violent, uncaring, brutal. | |
| And you know, as an atheist, that we can never rise above our nature because there's nothing above our nature to rise towards. | |
| All is nature. | |
| Nature is everything. So to blame the evil and violence in the world on religion is absurd, and you must know that. | |
| Evil and violence are just nature. | |
| It's just the way of things. | |
| It will never change. It can't change. | |
| And why should we try to change it? | |
| You know, a shark doesn't try to change his ways and stop eating seals. | |
| A lion doesn't get all guilt-tripped if he kills a zebra and then sees that the zebra has a child. | |
| He says, oh my goodness, what have I done? | |
| He doesn't do that. A male gorilla will beat another gorilla to death and not even think about it because this is just how nature acts. | |
| There's no chance of escaping it. | |
| And why should we try? We're no different than the lion, the gorilla, the shark. | |
| Why should we hold ourselves to a higher standard? | |
| What is evil anyway? | |
| You would never speak of a shark or a lion or a gorilla or a virus committing evil, would you? | |
| No matter how much death and suffering those creatures bring on other creatures, You would never say that they commit evil, so why should we be held to that standard? | |
| It's a social construct, an artificial invention. | |
| Evil doesn't even exist. | |
| On atheism, there's no rational way to blame religion for evil, but there's also no such thing as evil anyway. | |
| So that can't be your reason. | |
| The idea that religion is evil Cannot be a reason. | |
| That can't possibly be a reason for trying to convert people away from it. | |
| Because religion is no worse than atheism as far as that goes. | |
| I would argue it's better, but it's certainly no worse. | |
| And also, evil doesn't exist. | |
| And this is all just in keeping with the way of nature. | |
| So, you know, let's say in your worst case scenario, a religious government comes into power and establishes this oppressive theocracy and imposes its will on others. | |
| Well, that's just Darwinism. | |
| That's just dog-eat-dog. | |
| That's what we're supposed to do, right? | |
| That's what nature says. That's how every organism on the planet behaves. | |
| So why shouldn't you do that? | |
| Why shouldn't we? So that can't be a reason. | |
| What is it then? Well, you might say, you preach atheism because atheism is true, and so you preach it because what's true is true, and you preach it for the sake of truth. | |
| But who cares? Who cares if it's true? | |
| What value does the truth have? | |
| What does the truth matter? | |
| Our ability to even recognize the truth is an aberration. | |
| It's the result of a mutation. | |
| I would say it's a sick joke that the universe has pulled on us. | |
| There are nine million other species on Earth, hundreds of millions of species in the history of the Earth. | |
| None of them are or have ever been self-aware. | |
| None of them have the capability of comprehending themselves or death or truth. | |
| And scientists believe that there could be a 99% probability that we're the only intelligent creatures in the whole galaxy. | |
| They say there's a 50 to 60% probability that we're the only intelligent creatures in the known observable universe. | |
| So that means we're the, as far as we know, we are the only creatures in the observable universe who have this self-awareness, this ability to see truth. | |
| And think about all the other matter in the galaxy. | |
| We all come from the same stuff, right? | |
| We're all essentially the same. | |
| In the end, we're all just inanimate matter that has assembled itself in a certain way. | |
| And for us, it assembled itself in a way as to produce animation and to produce at least the illusion of consciousness. | |
| But we're all just... | |
| We are all just... | |
| The sum of our parts. And so out of all these trillions and trillions and trillions of things in the universe, we are the only ones, as far as we know, that have the capacity to know ourselves and know truth. | |
| The only ones. Now, I won't even get into the fact that this doesn't really make any sense. | |
| You know, reason cannot spring forth from unreason. | |
| Consciousness cannot come from unconsciousness. | |
| It makes no sense that a universe of unreason, a universe with no self-awareness at all, a universe of matter with no designer and no God could somehow feature one small little race of reasonable self-aware creatures. | |
| And what a horrible thing in such a cold and pointless universe for this lonely little collection of beings to be cursed with the knowledge of the futility of their own existence. | |
| And what a horrible thing that somehow nature has given us not only reason, but has also given us this infinite longing for something beyond, something greater, something that transcends ourselves, something that doesn't exist. | |
| We're also the only creatures in the known universe, as far as we know, that have that, that have this great deep desire for a non-existent thing. | |
| And why would nature evolve such a desire? | |
| It doesn't make any sense. And why would nature evolve? | |
| From the atheist view, they say, well, nature evolved self-awareness for people. | |
| Human beings evolved consciousness because that's what we needed to propagate our species. | |
| But, well, first of all, you still haven't explained how that actually functionally happens, but also, how does consciousness, how does self-awareness help us propagate the species? | |
| The only thing nature is concerned with, right, is just the propagation of itself. | |
| And there are many species that are more numerous than we are and do not have consciousness and do not have self-awareness. | |
| There are many species that have existed a heck of a lot longer than us. | |
| And do not have consciousness and do not have self-awareness. | |
| In fact, reason not only doesn't help our species propagate, but it actually interferes with it. | |
| It does the opposite. As reasonable beings, we are the only ones, as far as we know, that actually make the decision to not propagate the species. | |
| So how could it have come about? | |
| It doesn't make any sense. But that's not the point. | |
| I'm just trying to establish that That our capacity to understand truth is accidental and, I think, pretty horrific. | |
| So why are you appealing to it? | |
| It's just this totally meaningless and accidental function, this function that we happen to have that serves no great purpose. | |
| Why are you appealing to it? | |
| Who cares? To hell with truth in that case. | |
| What does it matter? The truth is a horror. | |
| It would be better if we don't confront it. | |
| Not to mention, how can we even trust our perception of truth? | |
| If reason is just the result of unreason assembling itself in a certain way, then to trust our reason is to trust the material irrational things that comprise our reason. | |
| And how do we do that? Reason, rationality, these are but illusions in the atheist view. | |
| Rationality is a projection of irrationality. | |
| So rationality doesn't really exist. | |
| It's just, you know, an apple tree can't give you bananas. | |
| An apple tree can only give you apples. | |
| Well, our roots, our tree, our trunk is irrationality. | |
| That is what we're comprised of, is irrational, unconscious matter. | |
| So how could the fruits be anything but irrationality and unconsciousness? | |
| I think on atheism, to really understand and comprehend truth is to go insane. | |
| It is to see yourself as you are, which is, you are not really a self. | |
| You're no more a self than a clump of dirt is a self. | |
| Your perception of selfhood is illusory. | |
| You're just matter among matter. | |
| You are a collection of physical things. | |
| You are a lump of stuff and nothing more. | |
| So if you really want to live in the truth and advocate for the truth, then you would have to live with the knowledge that there is no you, and everything you think, do, say, and believe is just the result of chemical interactions. | |
| And so how can you even trust it? | |
| So it would seem on the atheist view, there's no reason to appeal to truth, and you really can't. | |
| Because how do you know you can trust your own perception of truth? | |
| So that can't be the reason why atheists preach atheism. | |
| I think we're left with only three possibilities. | |
| One, they really believe that atheism is true. | |
| They believe that life is horrible and meaningless, and they want others to join them in their despair. | |
| It's a misery loves company kind of thing, and so it's really cruelty in the end. | |
| And I think that's the case for some of them. | |
| Two, for other atheists, I think They don't really believe that atheism is true, or they aren't quite sure, but they're angry at God for any number of reasons. | |
| So their denial of Him is their way of lashing out at Him. | |
| And their recruiting of other people is a rebellion against God. | |
| I think that's the case for some of them. | |
| But three, I think that many atheists just haven't thought this all the way out. | |
| They aren't trying to be cruel. | |
| And they don't perceive that they hate God. | |
| They don't consciously hate God. | |
| They're not consciously angry at Him. | |
| They truly believe on some level that He doesn't exist, but they fight for what they believe is true because they see the truth as this transcendent and important thing. | |
| They think that it is morally right to speak truth, and they believe that we should live according to what is morally right. | |
| In other words, they disbelieve in God, but their hearts and their souls, I would say, are pulling them towards this recognition of a world where truth is transcendent and moral rightness is worth fighting for. | |
| And I think that's good. | |
| Now, I think they're wrong in a lot of their conclusions, but the motivation there, at least that part of the motivation, is good. | |
| I just wish they'd stopped to think about where they got this idea of truth and this idea of right and wrong. | |
| Now, if you're an atheist and you really think that religion is a moral abomination, and so you fight for it on that ground, you fight for it because you say, well, I ought to fight against religion, and a person ought not be religious. | |
| Well, the moment that you've made that statement, then you have to Then you have to ask yourself, where did you get this conception of ought to and ought not to? | |
| No other creature on earth has that conception. | |
| You don't have squirrels and deer running around saying, well, I ought to do this, or I shouldn't do that. | |
| They never think that. So where did you get that from? | |
| That's interesting, isn't it? | |
| This idea of I ought to, I ought not to. | |
| And what happens? Now, if you're doing something and someone comes up to you and says, you ought not do that, what is your first question to them? | |
| What is it? It says who? | |
| And so if you're committing a crime and someone comes up and says, you ought not do that, and you say, says who? | |
| They might say, well, the government says it, and if you do it, you'll go to jail. | |
| And so fine, that's a reason. But if you're doing something that is not illegal, and it's just immoral, and someone comes up to you and says, well, you ought not do that, and then you say, says who? | |
| Well, what's the answer to that? | |
| Every time you say ought to or ought not to, you are appealing to an authority of some kind. | |
| You must be. Because if there is no authority, if there is no command or law or rule that we're supposed to be following, then it makes no sense to say ought to and ought not to. | |
| If there is no God, if there's no objective moral code ingrained in us from above, then Then your conception of what we should do and shouldn't do means nothing. | |
| Because when I say says who, you'd have to say, well, nobody. | |
| Nobody says it. And then I can say, okay, well then that's okay, but I'm going to keep doing it. | |
| So all I would ask is if you're an atheist, maybe follow your own train of thought. | |
| You say you don't believe in God. | |
| Okay. Yet, you still see truth and As this thing that we should strive towards. | |
| And you still see moral rightness as an objective good. | |
| So it seems like you're reaching for something. | |
| You're reaching for something that is above and beyond nature. | |
| You're reaching for something that is not contained in nature and obviously was not created by nature. | |
| So all I would ask you to think to yourself is, what am I reaching to? | |
| Or maybe I should say, who? |