Nick Hauselman is doing his thing, so Jared Yates Sexton welcomes Karl Folk to the pod to discuss the recent schism between racist MAGA and Tech Fascist MAGA. It's a long discussion about the inherent contradictions within fascism and the Right, the interests of the oligarchical and wealth classes and how they bring about opportunities for change, capitulation within liberal media and the Democratic Party, and the need to organize at the local level to get ready for both what's coming and to take advantage of opportunities as they arise.
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In the meantime, everybody, I needed someone to ride with me.
I needed someone at Shotgun that, by the way, I've been meaning to talk to for a while on the topics we're getting in today, and there was only one person I could go out and find, and that is Carl Folk, a sociologist and director at the Institute of Unreality.
Carl, how are you doing, my friend?
I'm doing well.
You know, it's that special time of year where nothing happens and everything happens, so we're there.
We're there.
And, you know, it's been...
I'm trying to think about when was the last time we did a long-form discussion.
We had a moment on election night back when Twitter was somewhere you could at least kind of be every now and then for communication purposes.
And we kind of unloaded on the unsuccessful Harris campaign in the Democratic Party.
But this catch-up, I think, is much, much needed.
And I've been looking forward to it since we figured out time for it.
Same here.
All right, Carl.
So we're going to go through a couple of breaking news items that have been taking place over the past week or so.
We're going to get in the weeds, which is what we always do.
That is how our friendship works.
And Carl, there is no better person that I would rather speak to about this first topic than yourself.
Over the weekend, there was a weird schism that took place.
coverage in terms of sort of like let them fight Godzilla and Kong sort of coverage.
Yes.
But there's a lot to get into here and to get people up to speed maybe who missed this.
What occurred was that Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy came out in favor of expanding the H-1B visa program, which brings in tech workers from around the world.
This, of course, upset a large group of MAGA-based personalities, including Laura Loomer and the other racist likes of her, who came out and said, why are we trying to bring more people Obviously, we're trying to create a white ethnostate.
Elon Musk retaliated by taking away her verification, all of her subscriptions, and the people around her, all of her stuff, which led, and this is an incredible thing, Carl, Loomer to call all of this, quote-unquote, totalitarian censorship and decried the takeover of MAGA by the tech world.
We saw Steve Bannon come out and call Elon Musk a toddler.
This is an actual quote from Musk.
He was talking about how the, quote, contemptible fools within the Republican Party, and he said they were unrepentant, hateful racists, that they must be removed from the Republican Party.
This is a schism that is already being talked about in terms of where the Republican Party is going to go, particularly during the second Trump administration.
I have my take and analysis on this.
I want to hear what you have to say, Carl.
I mean, so this is, I mean, an example that we all knew was coming if you were someone who focused on the far right at any level.
Because one of the side products for this kind of new right conglomerate of different movements that have become kind of one large tent for fascists is, like, they fight all the time, right?
Yeah.
And they fight tooth and nail all the time.
And the reality is, like, Musk and the H-1B visa are very much a different way of looking at power than For the new right group, right?
Like, this is a white power group in a lot of ways.
So for them, this idea that we're going to bring in people from outside the country who are more talented in the field that they're being approached from...
This is an inherent threat to the whole worldview that the other part of MAGA and the New Right truly believes, which is this white ethno-nationalist set of ideas.
And, you know, so this is going to be a fight we're going to see pretty constantly, I have a feeling, in some form or another over this entire presidency, right?
Because there are two differing forms of this.
Musk's H-1B visa as a slaveholders agreement for the tech industry, and then the white nationalist white power side, which is going to see any of this as transgression against the end goal.
And, you know, with Bannon, Bannon is a unique figure in all of this because he actually understands that for them to be truly successful with this, they are actually going to have to do things to positively or appear to positively impact the general population.
And Bannon knows that's only going to be done through economic...
Let's say pain for some of the wealth class as you know a way to basically get the population on the side of this because this is going to come for everyone economically and so you know Bannon's trying to head this off he's also you know a Nazi for lack of a better word and so you've got a couple different things happening here right and like I think people fail to understand
the fighting is a feature, not a bug.
But also, this underlines one of the major fracture points in this whole alliance is how pure an ethnostate do you want?
And really, what is your end goal?
In Musk, it's purely a mechanical need for more employees.
And like from what has been said previously by him and people around him, like he sees the H-1B visa program as kind of a mint for his companies because they allow him to bring in workers who then are kind of, I mean, when I said, you know, kind of a system of slavery earlier, it's what it is, right?
Like he ultimately has the power, his companies have the power to basically tell someone, this is how you're going to work for us or we're not going to keep you here.
And so it's differing views on power, right?
And really differing views on how the economics of power are going to work, right?
Like purely the extraction method, but also like the pain it's going to cause.
Well, I just want to welcome, undoubtedly, all of the right-wingers who always end up listening to this podcast whenever we get into the analysis of the power structures of the Republican Party.
And I've got bad news for you.
All of the racism, all of the sexism, all of the nativism, everything that you believe and it turns out your entire ideology revolves around...
These are all pressure points that are used by the wealth class to manipulate you, take advantage of you, and to use you and your party and your movement on behalf of one purpose, and that is the concentration of capital and the exploitation of workers.
Congratulations, you played yourselves.
Yeah, and I think that's the other part of this power struggle, right?
And it's the one that isn't being talked about in the articles about Loomer and the Nazis getting mad at Musk.
It's the power struggle between Musk and the White House, right?
Like now, and what will be the White House at the end of a month.
Musk has very different goals than the Republican Party when it comes to who holds the ultimate power, right?
Like, Musk literally sees himself as a pharaoh figure.
And so, when you have these kind of huge lines now that are coming down within the party, like, MAGA itself Isn't going to find a friend in Musk.
And like Musk wants everyone who doesn't make six to seven figures to feel some real economic pain so he can get wealthy.
And so these are two differing views of the world according to the new right.
And so it's really interesting and, I mean, dark to see this fight be public, right?
Because Trump I don't think has the real power to go against Musk.
Oh, he's already voiced the support for Elon Musk in all of this.
That's what I'm saying, right?
So, like, Musk is kind of the shadow president here, right?
So, like, this is a different view of what these groups want, right?
Like, you have this techno-fascist, meritocracy-based...
Neo-feudal, technocratic, whatever we want to call it, thing that Musk represents, which is the more, I think, dangerous part of the new right in a lot of ways.
The Curtis Yarvin, Nick Land, you know, hyper-accelerationist view of the world, which is Musk.
And then you have Trump, which...
Trump's just a fucking fascist, right?
So at the end of the day, like...
He's a fascist clown, is what he is.
Dancing for all these people, yes.
I think that's been true pretty much throughout history, right?
Like, all of the fascists have been clowns at some level, and I think that's actually what makes Musk feel that whole crew, this other part of the New Rights so dangerous, is like, they're not clowns.
In the way that Trump is, they're clowns in the sense that they believe outlandish, crazy stuff, but they also have the ability to wear a suit and go grab $100 million to go do something that doesn't really have any goal beyond them spending $100 million to create a new form of extraction, right?
And degradation for the environment.
So, like, it's a really...
These are two different camps that are going to be in constant.
Well, and I think that's part of the issue here, because for one, listen, Laura Loomer is not a deep thinker.
And the other people in this ecosystem are not deep thinkers.
Like they honestly do not understand what Donald Trump is or what Donald Trump represents because he just basically gestured to them in order to capitalize on basically a niche that existed within our politics in order to get himself in a place to become a grifter king more or less.
And he was just, oh, you guys want white nationalism?
Absolutely.
Like, I'm actually for white nationalism, but meanwhile, I'm just going to go in and serve the wealthy class and worsen this condition.
Meanwhile...
And Carl, this is the thing that I keep trying to get into people's heads.
What Musk is doing is on a whole other level from anything that we've actually seen in the modern era whatsoever.
Like even the rise of the fascists and the Nazis and the authoritarianism of the 20th century, it was a group of industrialists that were pushing this thing.
Yeah.
basically wanted them out there in the streets in order to go after socialists and to take over liberal democracy.
Musk has recognized, much like how Trump recognized within the Republican Party there was an opportunity, Musk has recognized that MAGA, which he paid a couple of hundred million dollars for.
That's the wildest thing.
He didn't even pay that much for it.
He's now trying to take over Germany through Alternative for Deutschland.
He's also going to try and take over the UK through Nigel Farage and hopefully some sort of Tory alternative.
And so what has happened?
that they were in a project for a white ethnostate.
And yes, they are ideologically Nazis, but they're not even like the actual neo-Nazis.
Like they understand, and that was something that I was tracking for years, which is as Trump was coming to power, like the actual Nazi groups, the paramilitary groups, the separatists, the exonerationists, they all recognized that Trump wasn't going to give them a white ethnostate.
They thought it was advantageous to get people radicalized through Trump and bring them over to their side.
These people are sort of caught in the middle of something that I don't think that they understand whatsoever, which is that Elon Musk bought MAGA in order to basically assimilate the United States government, which he's now on the precipice of doing.
On top of that, the media structure is not going to side with them.
Fox News is not going to have Laura Loomer and Steve Bannon on to give an articulated criticism of Elon Musk.
They're not even going to give this any sort of airspace.
The Ben Shapiros, all those other people who are being paid by right-wing oligarchs and also Russia while we're on the subject.
are not going to give this.
Their party and their movement got sold off from underneath them, and they don't understand that this has happened.
It just so happens that their racism and Elon Musk's racism, and he is racist and he has been very openly racist, they do not intersect because their goals have never actually been in line with each other outside of the prioritization of rhetoric and speech and ideology that they do not intersect because their goals have never actually been in line with each
Meanwhile, they're on the outside looking in before January 20th even gets here and are having to come to understand that they are dispensable.
Unless they go ahead and kiss Musk's boots, Donald Trump is going to push them away.
And And MAGA is going to move on without them because MAGA is now subservient to the wishes of the oligarchical class as opposed to all these other things.
So they can basically shut up and eat shit or they are going to get exercised from all of this stuff.
They are finding out some real material condition lessons at this point.
That's what's happening as opposed to a major, major schism that's going to derail any of this.
No, no, absolutely.
And, like, that's the thing, right?
Like, this is an overt shift in what the goal is, because they've achieved a couple of their bigger goals.
Right.
And for the new right, specifically the techno-fascist side, like, their whole goal has been to amass enough wealth to then, as you said, assimilate governments, right?
And for them, like, The neoliberal order, the same way as for modern fascists like Trump, has been a really good way for them to get into our lives, right?
And for better or worse, you know, we have kind of ceded ground to the tech oligarchs in really strange ways, right?
Even 10 years ago, I think a lot of people might have asked questions about.
And That money, I mean, I did some quick back of the napkin math the other day at dinner, and, you know, for the price that Musk paid, both for Twitter and for MAGA, He's gotten exactly the return on investment.
Oh, he's already profit off of both of them.
Yes, exactly.
And so, you know, if the goal was never to actually really have Trump be the thing for these people, he was always an avenue for them to get in and then take over, essentially.
They're well on their way to achieving that as well.
And like, Trump's base hasn't figured it out, and many others haven't, but they're going to get squeezed the hardest by what these people are planning to do.
And a couple days ago, I believe it was Trump, put up a post on Truth Social that basically laid out the argument for why Trump The economy was not going to fare well while he was a president.
And, you know, you start to put all these together and it becomes more and more clear that some of the more outlandish stuff that the Silicon Valley new right had been thinking through is really stuff now that might be on the table for them.
And, at least in their mind, right?
So that means they're going to work to enact those goals.
And, like, tech accelerationism, as laid out by both Yarvin and Land, kind of the, you know, the two kind of minds, two of the bigger minds.
The horsemen of the fascist departments at this point.
Yeah.
You know, their whole thing is basically using Capitalism and economics as a tool for them to shape society into something that bends to their will, not the other way around.
And so, you know, at the end of the day, like, these people are going to do maximum harm to those who are already the most harmed.
And like, you know, as much as none of us like to admit it, like Trump supporters, not the four boats and private jet Trump supporters, but like the run of the mill, small town America Trump supporters, they're going to get just smacked in the face small town America Trump supporters, they're going to get just smacked in They're going to get destroyed.
And speaking of the class, and I'm glad we reframed it through this thing, I put out a thing on Substack because I realized that in the wake of the 2024 election, not only has class politics gotten more and more muddled, it's just gotten completely contorted for a variety of reasons, which we'll get into in a little bit.
And actually what has happened is I actually believe that the tech oligarchs have carried out an incredible runaround.
Like what has actually occurred is that they have more or less supplanted the wealth class, the donors who created the modern Republican Party, got rid of the regulatory state, destroyed public education, science, and you name it.
They have actually captured basically all the means of production in the country.
There's not a corporation, there's not a business that doesn't use their tools at this point, that doesn't then feed into them and give them more and more historical wealth, which is now going to even fracture the class system even further.
It's – you brought up – I call them the burger class because basically the burger class, the Trump supporters who have the private jets and the boats, they, you know, basically you've got your regional used car lot magnates, right?
Yes.
Who used to basically run the country.
And they have been alienated from power.
They've been supplanted by the wealth class, who are people like your Kochs, who have like these major international corporations that base, you know, and have closeness to energy manufacturing, basically everything.
And they've controlled politics now for decades.
The tech class has now climbed above them and they're pushing the wealth class down underneath them.
They'll be fine.
Like those people who have hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe even touch around the billion, couple of billion dollar mark, they're going to be totally fine.
But everybody down that ladder is going to get crushed over the next few years.
And I don't actually and it's actually funny, Carl, because I think there are parallel structures within both parties.
The Democratic Party has a base that yells at them constantly.
They've been told that they're wrong and that they're going to cost them elections.
And meanwhile, they've, you know, worked hand in hand with the wealth class in order to carry out their agenda.
The Republican Party has been now even more compacted with the tech class, impacted with the tech class, which recognized that the Republican Party and right wing, nationalistic, racist, white supremacist groups around the world are their best chance to finalize their takeover of governments and the economies and to go ahead and extract the resources that they need to further their products and their white supremacist groups around the world are their best chance to finalize their takeover And so what you have is the vast majority of Americans have no idea what the fuck is
They have no idea how politics actually works.
And the MAGA people are now going to get a hard lesson in this.
But, and the problem is here, and this is something we're going to have to work against if we're going to defeat them, they have built in cognitive dissonance machines.
They have everything from their media to their conspiracy theories to their delusions, you name it.
That's what's going to blame the deep state and conspiracy theories and woke and all of that for all the economic travails.
And meanwhile, it's going to elevate people like Musk to become the first trillionaires and have widespread probably international power over politics and economies.
And so meanwhile, underneath them, you have a lot of other people who are just being controlled or basically being disenfranchised.
And I think we're watching that in real time at this point.
Yes.
I think, you know, what's been interesting is seeing all of this, right?
Like this huge gearing up for the plundering of the American public.
And at the same time, we have stuff like the assassination of a UnitedHealthcare exec, and it's polling better than both political parties, right?
And so, you know, we're set up right now in such a way where people know or have a feeling that something's amiss here, right?
Like, looking at the comments as someone who is a glutton for punishment and I'm trying to understand the far right a little bit better, you know, I perused the comments section of terrible people on social media and on, like, YouTube.
And, you know, I'm sure a lot of people who listen to this saw some of the screencaps coming from places like Ben Shapiro's.
Oh, Ben Shapiro's audience is on board.
Yeah, well, and that's the thing.
Like, this is where Bannon understands the game better than the rest of the right, is he knows that that anger is very real.
Incredibly.
And it's very much an onion skin beneath the surface.
And he can see the same thing that I think a lot of us see, which is this cabinet.
Of billionaires and a White House that is being designed by billionaires for billionaires.
There are only two routes here.
And that's actually a problem for the far right.
They need a multiple option kind of buffet of ways that they can turn when things go poorly.
And you can't really turn on the wealth class now for them in any fundamental way.
And the reality is Most people are on board with doing so much better with our economic situation that they're not at all against a targeted assassination.
Which, these are huge shifts.
These are historic shifts in America's trajectory socially.
And they're being coupled with this massive Like I said, kind of getting ready phase for the plundering.
And those two things together are shocking, right?
Like, this is something this country hasn't seen in 120, 110 years, where you have, like, actions against the wealthy on the street, and then you have the rise of this authoritarian sect of capital that's, like, not just like, oh, we're going to be authoritarian, but, like...
Thank you for playing, but now it's all ours.
We haven't had a makeup like this in a long time, so we're really setting ourselves up here for a couple of huge fights at the same time that sit side by side but aren't going to be the same fight.
I've been talking with people recently about how we are actually going to have to navigate both Incredibly rough fascist politics and the fact that they are going to start to lose support at a rate that's almost unimaginable once some of these things start to hit.
And we're going to have to be forward-thinking enough, let's say, to go and pick some of these people up and say, look, we all got the short end of a stick here.
You voted for a fascist.
This is what we were trying to tell you about.
But we also are gonna have to figure out how to get you and me and everyone else out of this hole now.
And that's not gonna happen without us figuring out how to do that together.
And I think, you know, I've been kind of watching this and saying, okay, This is going to be really tough, but we might also actually have a chance here to change the direction again because people do understand.
Like, this is a class problem, not a race or gender problem.
And the people who were stuck in those information silos with the far right, in some cases, are starting to say, hold up.
This is a problem.
This isn't the direction to solve that problem.
This is the direction to keep us from actually dealing with it.
And you see that now in comment sections where prior to the assassination and prior to Trump's winning and then whining that the White House cabinet with billionaires just wasn't there.
And that's...
Such a massive change for us as a country to be talking publicly about class issues and to be talking about inequality in a way that's more like, this is my experience with it, versus why is, you know, why is X, Y, or Z happening?
And I think that's the part to me that's been the most interesting, is across the aisle.
You see the same stories, the same resentment, the same anger, and that's really powerful.
And it's powerful in a way that disrupts the far right's ability to do some of what it's done.
So, like, we're starting to see, too, what, like, with the Loomer-Musk fight and Rumswami fight, these are not just, like, little fractures in the surface.
These are deep, Holes that we probably are going to need to start to think about in terms of, okay, how do we start scooping people out of these cracks and pushing the cracks further apart so the other people in them are at least able to see a direction.
We don't even necessarily need people to see things like, oh, this is all grift.
We don't necessarily even need that as long as people see like, It isn't our neighbors.
It's the White House.
It isn't the White House.
It's the billionaire class.
It's the billionaire class and the White House.
The more people start to actually pick up on this, the better for all of us.
Well, and speaking of the Mangione thing, we didn't have a chance to cover it because of the certain amount of time that we were recording and going on holiday and all that.
They've already made the concession to the billionaire and the millionaire class on that.
The DOJ went ahead and charged him with terrorism.
And what are we going to see?
Undoubtedly, we're going to see Trump push more of that.
We're going to see more and more money thrown at law enforcement.
This will probably be one of the reasons why we'll see like even more buildup in law enforcement and surveillance.
Then what happens at the lower level is this.
They like Trump, like people like where I'm from in southern Indiana.
They like Trump because he's not politically correct, because he says that the elites are crooked, he knows that all this shit, like that's why they're into that.
The racism is part of it, the patriarchal shit is part of that as well.
But they are similarly troubled by Elon Musk.
They don't want a wealthy tech pharaoh.
They don't want that.
They want Trump to be that.
And there's already an obvious sort of division here between Trump being a figurehead for this tech fascist push that's taking place.
And what you brought up is important.
And it gets a little squishy here, Carl, because as you and I, who are both working behind the scenes, we don't need to talk about what it is that we're doing in a public forum.
Why?
Because we're in the middle of a class war.
And I just want to make it clear that actually one of the things that works to our advantage is the people that you and I are talking about, whether it's Bannon or Yarvin or any number of these people, including the wealth class and their think tanks and their institutes, they have broadcast everything that they have wanted to do.
That is one of the reasons why we know what they're doing.
They've been very blatant about it.
So we can't talk about it explicitly.
But I will say this.
Anybody who is a leftist or even going back to the progressives who fought this battle a century ago, what they recognized was that there are class contradictions when it comes to power and particularly within capitalist countries.
You have to understand them.
You have to learn to communicate about them.
And you have to look for moments of opportunity.
And what you just brought up is exactly the right point, which is this thing isn't going to resolve itself.
This thing is not just going to go away, but it's also not going to tear MAGA apart and ruin Trump's second administration and the plans of Elon Musk.
There has to be pressure put upon it.
There has to be organizing that's used against it.
You have to use every opportunity to talk to people who, quite frankly, have been duped.
And you're also going to have to talk to some racist people and some sexist people and some xenophobic people and some gay and transphobic people.
It doesn't mean that you tell them that what they're saying is okay because it is not okay.
But you need to be able to talk to them about the fact that their prejudices have been used against them.
And the evidence is right there for everyone to see, which is this fight right here.
They say they're for free speech.
Well, they're taking away the free speech rights of all the people that disagree with them constantly.
Oh, they say that they're for a white ethnostate.
Well, look what they're doing here.
They're looking to bring in an underclass of controllable workers from another country, which is what they've claimed that liberals in the deep state were doing all along.
That's what they want to do to help themselves.
You have to be able to talk about this stuff and give them an alternative that gives actual solutions as opposed to the bullshit that Trump and all these people peddled towards them.
Exactly.
Exactly.
This is what we've been shown in the past.
This is the only thing that works against this stuff, unless, of course, you want to go to war with them and you want to have a world war where those things get settled.
And actually, those differences just kind of get taken care of and it goes underneath the surface.
But that's not particularly where I want to go with this thing.
No.
No, and I mean, that's just it, right?
Like, you have to give people viable options that aren't up here above their head, right?
Like, you have to give people options that are right in front of them, and you have to be able to give them real-world examples of how and why it's worked the way it has, right?
Like, the thing that I think for a lot of people...
We have a very hard time in this country, specifically, talking to other people we think we may not agree with, and it's gotten worse, right?
So that's tough.
A lot of that's based on good reasoning, right?
A lot of the politics have gotten to a point where it is dangerous to talk to other people depending on where you are and who you are.
100% true.
But there are going to be moments where you're going to have an opportunity literally to say to someone, look, You got screwed.
I got screwed.
We're actually in the same boat.
I don't really, you know, you don't have to probably say it, but, like, I don't really like you or your politics.
You know who else got screwed?
Gay, trans, people of color, women.
We all got screwed.
Exactly.
All of us are in the same boat together.
Yes.
They just happen to get you to believe it.
That you were in a different boat, which you were not.
And that was always the goal, right?
And so people want material change in the positive for them.
That's what all of this ends out at, right?
Like the reason at some level we got Trump and now are getting him again is because people, some people wanted to light the world on fire.
But other people needed change.
And had to have change because things have gotten so bad for them economically or just purely from the social effects of bad economics over 20 or 30 years.
For them personally, you know, that's a different argument than with someone who's like, I voted for him because there are brown people in my neighborhood.
These are very different things that, one, you probably will never talk out of anything.
Many of them you are not going to talk out of it, yes.
That's an ideological thing that's a different whole thing than talking to someone and saying, look, I don't agree with you, I don't like you necessarily, but also you got screwed just as badly as I did.
And that walkthrough for a lot of people...
It's going to be incredibly powerful, right?
Like, it's that moment of realizing, like, I made a bad choice, but other people are willing to look past a bad choice because we're all together in this.
That's powerful in a way that, like, MAGA hasn't figured out how to counter yet.
No, they probably can't.
Yeah.
Yeah, there's no ability whatsoever to figure it out.
And I wanted to talk to you.
And listen, Carl, you and I have spent hours now talking about this.
And we've talked about how we knew not just where the Democratic Party was going, but where white liberal middle class America was going in this country as well.
I talked on the last episode of the Macrake podcast about permission structures within the liberal media and within the Democratic Party, basically normalizing Trump everything from ranting about taking over the Panama Canal and Canada and Greenland to saying, you know, maybe he's got some good ideas.
Maybe, of course, we should talk with him and we should see where things are going.
I wanted to get into a discussion with you about liberal capitulation and what we're watching.
For me, it is one of the most angry making things that I've ever seen.
I knew it was going to happen.
I was charting it, I had studied it, and then I watched it happen, and it still pissed me off on a level that surprised me.
How quickly it happened, how much we've sort of taken this, how this thing has taken on a momentum all of its own.
What have you seen from this, and what is your take so far on how quickly white middle-class liberals are capitulating in all of this?
As someone who has watched this as well and has wandered this path and put up some flagpoles, it's maddening.
It's absolutely maddening.
For me, I think I've been shocked by the grief.
As someone who knew it was coming and someone who knew too that this was going to be really gross, I think I was shocked by the grief that I've had about it.
With that being said, this is just a really good example of neoliberalism as that white moderation force.
A force that doesn't have the ability to stand up for anything because it's hollow.
This isn't an actual...
We haven't probably had a real democratic party in 30 years, right?
So we don't have any real beliefs there at a national level.
We have people who see power and wealth generation and the work that they do as kind of an intermingled entity.
The neoliberal democratic party couldn't Counter or constrain fascism in any real way because it's inherently unable to do so as it was designed, right?
It was designed to protect shareholders and donors and it was designed to protect a certain, let's say, reactionary moderate crew within the party versus the The actual tenants of the party as they were from FDR on, right?
And, like, that is really...
We knew it was there, but to see it so starkly has been really off-putting.
And, like, to understand, too, that...
You know, you have people like Fetterman right now who's out here saying, I'm going to go and approve all of the Republicans I can, essentially, because, well, they make some good points.
What do you, you know, what...
I don't know.
We're past a PR problem for the party, and we're past a...
You know, something where people are going to be able to say, look, this was just a mistake, because this is a pretty concerted now effort to not just minimize and mainstream a lot of Trump's worst ideas right now, but also to kind of thumb their nose at anyone who actually is saying, hey, look, maybe we actually have to have something better than just status quo austerity.
You know, I think...
We've kind of caught ourselves a bigger fish than people understood in this view of the Democratic Party as not just unable, but unwilling and built in a way that's incapable to counter this.
And so seeing all of this kind of in concert, it's shocking.
And it's really upsetting understanding that there are so many things that could be done to even moderately gum up the worth.
And seeing all of that just go by the wayside has been...
You know, it seems like an abdication when faced with such an existential threat.
And like...
When you have news media that's owned by the same people who are profiting off of this and also giving a million dollars a pop or more to the inauguration slush fund, you're no longer in the normal world of how do we push back effectively?
How do we have a cohesive movement against this?
It's how do we get people to understand that that's even happened, right?
Because this has been so quiet and so kind of opaque as the rhetoric shifted again and again and again and kept kind of pushing out in the same way that it did with different investigations against Trump, where now, you know, resistance to Trump is kind of this object that's constantly shifting and off in the distance.
It's not something...
Right here for people.
And, you know, I keep thinking about what I wrote right after the election where I said, you know, this is going to be a different environment completely because a lot of the resistance mechanism that was there in the first term for Trump was also the last gasp of, like, the actual liberal order.
Yeah.
Trying to hold something back.
And now, you know, we've seen neoliberalism fail completely.
And we've seen this amalgamation on the right of fascists and techno-fascists and old-school Republican fascists.
Let's say, wingnuts.
And, you know, without any pushback, what we've seen is a media environment go from Trump's a fascist to, well, teehee, these are just jokes about Trump taking over other countries.
And that shift has been so subtle that But so incredibly fast that, like, for me, that just tells me how eroded things have become, right?
Like, and the fact that most people are just like, yeah, that's a funny joke.
This is a different world.
And that's how it's been looked at, too, with the Democrats and their acquiescence on finer points and on broader points.
You know, this is...
This is a different world.
Like, the neoliberal party died, but is still hanging onto a corpse.
And no one seems to be able to or want to speak to that at any real level.
So we're really...
I think for me, that's been more destabilizing than I thought it would be.
Very much where it's just like, you're truly going to be on your own for this.
No one's coming to figure this out.
We're going to be charged with doing that ourselves.
I don't know.
It's been interesting watching that settle in for people, too, who do know and who have paid attention and understand The limitations of the Democratic Party even prior to this.
It's been interesting seeing some of them settle in with, okay, well, we have to rebuild the party now.
And we have to find who the party is now.
And that's a real interesting shift because they haven't even done a post-mortem.
And they're already out here saying the party fundamentally isn't working for them.
And that has, they haven't been talking to the general population, so that says there is some realization going on, like, stuff has come apart.
It has, and I will say a couple things.
One, I have been sickened watching, and I think initially it was not just watching what the Harris campaign was doing.
And for the record, anybody who watched that campaign, the moment that Musk bought in and the Democrats didn't say anything at all about the wealthiest man in the world effectively buying the Republican Party.
And why did they not say it?
Because they didn't want to be seen as anti-capitalist.
They didn't want to be seen as anti-corporate because all of those people are intertwined with that structure.
And everybody who ran that campaign, they immediately left the campaign and went and got some sort of a corporate job.
They didn't want to trouble any of that whatsoever.
Also, they don't want to deal with the fact that the Democratic Party gave Musk and all of the tech fascists all of the support, all of the openings, and the lack of regulation that they needed.
They opened the door, and French kissed him on the way in and said, thank you so much for creating this new economy that we're going to take care of.
And then they immediately stabbed them in the back as soon as they got in the door.
So they couldn't talk about any of that.
They weren't willing to get into that.
And then to watch it immediately be blamed on gay and trans people was one of the most sickening things I've seen, which I figured it was going to happen.
But then to see it come into full bloom was something to watch how quickly the Democrats immediately capitulated to all of this, thinking somehow or another they could sink eager their way into like working with MAGA and doing all of this.
Then to watch how many people actually woke up to this was actually pretty inspiring.
For me, to realize how quickly people started to get it and to move away from sort of the liberal paradigm, which has obscured all of this shit.
We're watching the collapse of CNN, which basically now exists only as a place for the elite to go in and talk to one another.
It's more or less like a glorified walkie talkie between the elites who get to talk to one another.
MSNBC is the exact same thing.
Something like a morning Joe basically exists for Democratic leadership to discuss talking points with one another.
No one else is watching it.
Meanwhile, we've seen an explosion in terms of people paying attention to alternative media, turning off traditional media, and we're starting to see more and more people say, how do I get involved?
Which is the key in all of this.
Because it's almost like, Carl, I don't know if this is part of your cultural experience.
Did you ever see the TV show V? V? Like as in the alien invasion show.
The alien invasion show.
Yes.
Which I cannot recommend highly enough.
There's a moment in V, not to be a spoiler, where the face comes off and you see what's underneath the face.
And no, we're not saying that the world is controlled by reptilians.
were saying that basically politics as you thought that they occurred, and not to listeners of this show because they've been clued in on this for a long time, but the vast majority of the public did not understand politics because it existed as a spectator sport with tons of diversions and but the vast majority of the public did not understand politics because it existed as a spectator sport with tons of diversions
Now that we know that we're on our own, it is both infuriating, but I have had, I have found it to be clarifying.
Talking with other people who want to do the work, who have started to understand not just how disastrous the Harris-Waltz campaign of 2024 was, but how the Democratic Party has been co-opted now for decades.
People are understanding more history.
They're understanding more class politics.
I think that there is an opening here.
But as I said on the last episode of the show, there is a permission structure that is rapidly being rolled into place.
There's everybody from John Fetterman, Ro Khanna, of course, in the Democratic Party, Blumenthal in the Democratic Party, lots of the Democratic operatives.
We already saw the quote-unquote postmortem from the Waltz campaign strategist, which was, mwah, chef's kiss.
What a wonderful gift it was to bring us into the room to hear what these assholes had to say and where their loyalties lie.
But then there is this movement by The New York Times, The Washington Post, all of them owned by the wealth class.
Their job has always been to launder the wealth class's interest through the liberal prism.
The Atlantic is part of this as well.
They are playing their hands now.
We're seeing it everywhere from social media, and I wanted to get your take on this.
We saw even like a blue sky that opened up as like a leftist progressive alternative to Twitter.
It's been infiltrated by God knows how many operations that have taken place.
There is a scurrying attempt to try and get these permission structures into place because the wealth class wants what's coming and it wants to go ahead and inoculate the mass majority of people from understanding what's occurring.
And so there is a scramble on, which is where organizing comes in.
We have our work cut out for us and we have to do that work very, very quickly to talk to other people and get them on the same page.
But these permission structures are being put together on some very, very shaky, shaky scaffolding.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, this is...
These people are building permission structures and structures of thought on such shaky ground right now that I actually don't think much of this sticks.
I agree.
In all seriousness, seeing the response to both the assassination and the election have been really clarifying.
Like you said...
In that, like, there's a clear delineation happening.
And that permission-giving structure that the right is building and the Democrats are now starting to build...
Is really hand-fisted, right?
Like, this is a different way of doing things for both parties in some ways.
And the Democrats aren't as adept, right?
No, they suck at it.
They straight up suck at it.
They suck.
They're terrible.
You know, on Blue Sky, for example, like, I have interacted with more bad faith operated accounts than I ever did on Twitter, even in its height. I have interacted with more bad faith operated accounts than
And a lot of them are pushing contradictory narratives about the election, why it happened the way it did wealth and kind of the billionaire class off to the side.
And for the record, just just to put that into perspective, because we have to be careful about how we talk about this.
It is a very interesting thing that it's I'm studying it like I'm part I'm a target of it and I'm trying to study it as it happens.
It's like being attacked by a lion and trying to understand the lion as it's attacking.
Like, it takes what you say and twists it and morphs it and then redirects it, much like how, you know, MAGA did with populist discontent, as we talked about in the past.
Like, it is a very focused operation that has been very, very strange and I don't think has been researched or talked about enough.
No, you know, I mean, there's a little bit of talk here and there, right, about, like, Blue MAGA and Blue Anon.
When I did the Washington Post article this summer, as someone they contacted, that was kind of the crux of it then.
These were contradictory messages.
It looked a lot like the messaging to MAGA's base.
In 2015, insofar as it wasn't meant to push anyone in a direction.
It was meant to push people apart and then reform them as part of a group, not as like members, but as participants.
And That's happening again.
I don't have any names, I would say, but there's definitely a concerted effort by certain democratic groups to align themselves with the extreme wealth and the austerity of thought That goes into the technocratic, neoliberal side.
And that has been, as a target as well, has been really interesting because, like you said, fighting a tiger where you have to constantly figure out what is actually going on...
Is very different.
Like, the far right, their trolling, in a lot of cases, is very blatantly just to troll, right?
Like, it's literally just to make you emotional or to do something so they win.
This is very different than that, right?
Like, this is arguing for and against something.
Simultaneously.
Yeah, at the same time.
And at the same time, Reading past what you're saying and posing as straw man.
So you have both sides being played at the same time plus a straw man.
While using liberal cancel culture talking points that intersect while also moving you away from actual criticisms of power and wealth.
Exactly.
It's the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
I've never seen anything like it.
I mean, to be honest with you, as someone who watches Misinformation Spaces and really has spent the time understanding how this works, this is something somewhat new, right?
It's not new in the tactics, necessarily.
But in the specific formation or cloud of tactics they're pulling from, it's very strange.
And it really, you know, for me, I hesitate on outside forces because I don't think that argument stands up.
This, to me, though, has the feel of an outside force insofar as it's not a force looking out for the actual material gains of the base.
This is a party that's coming from the wealth class down.
Well, to your point, because we're being a little esoteric in this, but I want to kind of give people a base point.
Whenever the election happened, and I was trying to explain to people what had happened, I said, imagine that you're hearing about another country, right?
It's a supposed second or third world country.
Right.
And some Trump-like bozo is coming to power and all of the articles that you read are about how he's a tool of the wealth class and he's taking over the government using populist appeals and he's actually just going to give them all the resources and all of the wealth.
And by the way, what would be happening that entire time, Carl, is that U.S. CIA propaganda would be used in that country to try and help that person get elected.
Yes.
So that they could be fit within the larger neoliberal global...
sphere.
That in the past would have happened with newspapers, pamphlets, radio broadcasts.
That tactic that used to be used on foreign countries by U.S. intelligence is now being used within the United States of America against Americans to try and put in a similar type figure with Trump and the Republican Party and to normalize their stuff.
And where it's coming from, there are arguments to be made about how it happens and how it occurs because, quite frankly, the wealth class now has more power and more wealth than the United States government in its I think that's the part for me that's really important to hammer on, right?
The reason that I've said it feels like it's coming from somewhere else is because it is.
It's just it's coming from the digital world.
You know, the virtual wealth land, right?
Like money land.
That they own and control.
Right?
And, you know, I've talked about in the past, like, the digital oligarchs and fascists have their own nation states.
They're just not physical.
They exist above the nation states.
Right.
They exist outside of it.
And it's much in the same way that the global wealth You know, community has existed because they exist outside of most normal laws.
The borders that we all adhere to, they live outside that.
They live and travel where they want.
They get to exist in a wholly different, separate place on the same planet.
And when you have that, you know...
Infrastructure already in place, which we do because of the consumer culture we have, you know, there's a pretty large concerted effort right now to change the culture of this country to fit a billionaire agenda, not our own.
And, like, I think, you know, for me, that's why I feel so kind of outside, like an outside force in certain ways with Blue Sky is it's very clearly...
Not organic, right?
Like, it's very clearly something that's not just, like, concerned citizens, you know, fucking around online.
It's a group of people who have a very clear goal, and they're working a plan to achieve steps within that goal.
And with the way their language has been going, this contradictory, strawmanning kind of thing...
There's no direction it goes except for into further obscuring true threats.
Real power dynamics.
Systems at play.
And that's exactly what we've seen in other moments where the wealth class and the rest of us are starting to actually get into it.
Is they trying to obscure More and more.
And it tends to be in this country that people dislike that immensely and kind of it raises some alarm bells for them.
So it'll be interesting to see if that happens this time around.
Because there are Going back to what we were saying previously, there are moments here where we're going to see enough blue sky through the clouds to really make massive inroads with others and even just in our understanding of what's actually happening to where we're going to be able to move through it a little bit more effectively.
The wealth class knows that there's a clock somewhere Picking down to when people actually figure out they're getting robbed.
And, you know, the argument now, or the conversation, I guess, now, is can we hold off the people from that timer?
Because the Democrats can't...
They can't afford, in their calculation...
lose the support of the wealth class because that would mean then they have to restructure the entire party away from wealth acquisition towards actually material change.
And those are different parties.
Well, and those different parties are held by different people.
And it keeps them from making tens of billions of dollars, if not.
And that's the thing is, and just to put a final bow on this, they're not going to make that decision on their own.
That's the entire point of all of this, is whether or not it's the MAGA rift we were talking about, the liberal permission structures, or the Democratic Party changing in some way, none of this stuff just happens.
If you do not push on them, if you do not put pressure on them, they remain along the same trajectory.
These decisions are easy for them unless something changes and puts pressure on them.
Well, and the calculation's always going to be the same, right?
Like, if they've gone this far and the calculation's gotten them this far, why wouldn't it get them further, right?
And, like, that's a problem that we actually have to solve.
Because they, like you said, they're not going to.
They don't see it as a problem.
They see it as part of the business.
And...
Ultimately, that's the entire problem here, right?
If you have one party that's explicitly fascist and is explicitly helping the billionaire class achieve more and more of their goal within that fascist belief system, you can't have another corporate party.
It actually doesn't work.
I mean, it works, just not in the way you want it to.
Not for us.
Not for us.
The majority.
Yeah, no, and that's just it, right?
Because everyone does co-mingle at the billionaire and multi-millionaire level, at a certain level, you're dealing with under a thousand people total, right?
And so you're never going to be free from one of their ideological bends.
And when one of the overriding ideological bends is fascism, that's incompatible, right?
Like, we just, we can't do that.
And so it's really imperative, I think, now for people to make it very clear to the Democratic Party, like, you have to ditch every billionaire around you and you have to ditch the technocratic neoliberal approach and offer people real material change, Achieve some of it, at least.
And stop taking money from the people who you've said are your enemies.
And who've proven they actually are.
Right?
Like, it's...
I mean, that's the choice.
You either do that or you go the way of the Whigs.
That's the choice that has to be given to them.
Well, yeah.
And I think, you know, people have failed to understand.
The Republican Party's dead.
And has been for a decade or more.
And the Democratic Party is right behind it.
And, like, neoliberalism completely failing and shitting the bed now twice in the face of a clown car fascist actually says that both parties are dead as they were constituted.
And we have to come to grips with that, right?
Like, the Democratic Party is gone.
They're there in name, they're there in performance, but for actual material change, they're not functioning.
The first party that really figures out that if we bring...
Basic social safety net things to the forefront.
Whether that's a child tax care credit.
Whether that's feeding everyone at public schools for free.
Stuff that really does change people's lives.
The first party to really get on board with that is not going to lose an election again for years.
No, and by the way, just so people understand because it feels like everything is quote-unquote stacked, there are even billionaires and millionaires who do not like Elon Musk and the tech fascist who are going to make that calculation for themselves.
That needs to be opposed to it.
So the entire point is the Democratic Party, going back to what we were talking about, it's controlled by a group of people who control the finances of the Democratic Party who use it for a variety of reasons, including, I don't know, insider trading.
There's a lot of different ways this stuff works.
But the moment that a little bit of pressure gets exerted, there is a decision that gets made.
Yeah.
And this thing can change in a hurry.
And what you just said about the clock coming down, that clock counting down when it comes to the billionaire class, the oligarchical class, you name it, there is going to be a battle.
The question is whether or not people are going to be prepared for that battle.
The other side is going to prepare for that battle.
And the question is – The question now is whether or not the majority of people are going to prepare for it.
And be ready.
Exactly.
And I mean, that's where like the Democratic Party that we idealized was built in the fires of being the opposition to fucking robber barons.
That's right.
We can do this again.
Like this is not outside the realm of the Democratic Party's ability.
It's going to take, though, truly having this fight.
and we have to have this fight with the DNC?
Before the billionaire fight comes.
Because there has to be a mechanism to push it back.
And to be honest, this is within the normal kind of cycle for American politics where we end up with a Great Depression level event.
Which is almost by design, for the record.
Well, yeah, I mean, it's built into the mythos, right?
Is that the Republicans crash the economy, Democrats bring it back.
We haven't had, though, like a full-on economic shock on the level of the Great Depression since the Great Depression.
And we're doing it.
And like the correction...
At that point, everything else falls away.
Your racism can't feed you.
Your hate of LGBTQ folks isn't going to feed you.
You're not going to have true bottoms out capital collapse.
What happens is the population tends to band together and the wealth class freaks the fuck out, right?
Like, we have a full-on elite panic, and then you have the rest of us being like, well, we're going to create our own economies.
We're going to take care of each other and discover mass politics again.
You know, like, that...
That is a very real trajectory we're on, right?
Where people no longer can or will care about this hyper-object national race.
They're going to focus on what they can, which is my neighbors are going to die unless I figure out how to get my feed to feed these hogs.
And that's, you know, like A lot of people want to get very, you know, like, oh, that's not possible.
It's entirely possible that they, either by design or by accident, screw the economy so badly in this country that for all intents and purposes, it strips a lot of modernity away from it and leaves people in a position where it's an everyday fight for What they have to have as a family unit or as an individual to survive.
And that's It's never helped the wealth class to put the country into shock like that.
Let's just say that.
And I think, you know, for me, reactionaries, fascists, Nazis, whatever, they can't think second and third order effects through, right?
Like, they don't have that capability.
No, they're disastrous.
Yeah, and so you couple that with an ineffectual resistance party, the Democrats.
For similar reasons, people are going to figure out, okay, who's got the better idea for how we're going to get vaccines for measles to my community now that Dr. Sunshine has taken them away?
And that's a different kind of politics than anyone in this country under the age of about 90. This is a different thing we're going into for a hundred reasons.
But one of the big ones is literally, this is politics like a hundred years ago, and they expect society to function like a hundred years ago.
And that means we are going to be much more on the social Darwin side of this argument, because that's what they believe, that we should fight it out.
And that the strongest survive in this perverse world they're trying to build.
And so, out of that, though, historically, is where American...
We actually tend to shine in those moments because we're like, cool, man.
Like, you're saying all laws don't exist and we're just kind of doing what we gotta do to survive?
Well, we've done this before and, like...
We did pretty okay alone.
It's just, that's a big jump in mindset for most people, to realize that the biggest politics that are going to be the most effective for them are the ones in their neighborhood, not the ones at the ballot box for the next president.
And those are going to have a much bigger effect on where we end up than the national election.
Yeah, at that point at national elections, you just hope you have someone like an FDR, you know, that is ready to turn his back on the wealth class in order to...
Well, that's just it.
You know, those politics were popular because they were popular.
Right.
Right.
We have forgotten what actually popular politics in this country look like, and generally they look like that, and someone's going to crack it.
Somebody's going to, and the question is whether or not that will be prepared to happen at that point.
Yeah.
And how that ends up getting carried out is going to depend a lot on going ahead and creating those local structures that will then move upwards, which we've been taught not to do.
Exactly.
And so when the standard of living crashes, that's going to be important, not just for survival, but exactly how a party is going to function, or whether or not a party is not going to function, whether it survives or not.
Yeah.
Right.
No, and I think, you know, going back to what we have been kind of touching on, This is one of those moments where we have opportunities that are going to look like a turd-shaped rock until they become clearly an opportunity.
And we have to just, you know, even in the moments where it looks really bleak here, we're going to have some huge true opportunities to change course for what we expect And get out of our elected officials.
Because there is going to come a point where, like, the theater doesn't matter anymore.
And I think we're actually quickly approaching that.
Yeah, I think we're quickly approaching that in, like, seeing how people have banded together in light of, like, the assassination, the attempted coup in South Korea.
Like, We're seeing where some of the larger lines are.
People do want democracy.
People do think that the wealth class is corrupt.
And we've never had a clear moment where we start to see those lines start to merge.
Where democracy and corruption and greed all start to butt heads.
We're starting to see that.
Kind of wisps of smoke in that direction, which would be a huge...
It would be a huge moment for a lot of Americans if we truly start to think Kind of in that triangulation where it's, oh, the corruption and the attempted coup and the backslide of democracy are all interlinked with this other thing, which is, you know, the Musk billionaire wealth thing.
I mean, we have some intersections here that if we are willing to actually walk them, bring us to a I'm not going to say better, because none of this is going to be better than if it hadn't happened, but it will be useful going forward.
It's not going to be good, but just a final point on what you just said.
I said this the other day.
What Musk is doing is unprecedented, and his strength is his audaciousness.
Like, doing something that no person in the modern era has ever tried to do.
But that's ultimately going to be the downfall here.
He's so audacious that he can't hide it, and that it just has to be out there for everyone to see.
And the fact that it's more and more obvious every single day, I think, benefits the fight against this thing.
Yeah.
I think that's absolutely spot on, right?
Like, even if he has the full control of the federal government, he's going to overstep bounds that make it impossible.
To go back from, right?
And for any of these guys on the right specifically, they need multiple doors to walk through because they don't like getting pinned down.
Musk does not have that ability because he is a guy who has to be that guy.
And it's going to, I mean, it's going to, the irony is going to be it destroys him.
Yep.
Personally.
But also that it might truly, at some point, fracture things so fully within the MAGA-based conglomeration of differing groups that they may just not have the ability to keep it together.
And it's not going to be because Musk is anti or pro H-1B visas.
It's not going to be because of that.
It's going to come from the incredibly clear view that we're all just getting fucking robbed to pay Elon Musk.
Right?
Like, most people are going to wake up at some point to the fact that they're 401ks, they're Their Medicare, their Medicaid...
Their standard of living in general is being...
Your Social Security.
Everything's gone.
And Musk was just standing there with a vacuum.
And that's...
You don't walk away from them.
Yeah, you literally do not walk out of that room.
No, you don't.
I mean, it's the biggest heist in human history, right?
And like...
What happens when everyone's tapped out?
Right.
Like, people aren't going to just be like, cool, we got fleeced.
That's not how anyone in history has reacted, right?
Like, in 2008, it's what gave us in part the modern Republican Party.
And in part, it's what gave us the technocratic, neoliberal side of the Democratic Party.
And that rage at 2008 and bailing out the banks barrel-rolled into partially Trump and partially some other shit.
And You do two of these back-to-back, like, a decade apart or two decades apart, no one's walking out of that room in a good place, but the billionaires are walking out of it in a far worse place because, like, we don't have a system now to redress our grievances, right?
Like, this is ultimately what government was set up to do at a certain level was moderate the Between us, the civilian, and the elite.
Because there was a different way of handling problems back then.
Other than going to the voting booths.
Oh god yes!
There was a period in American history where literally people's houses were dismantled board by board.
If you fucked around too hard and the population just showed up and pulled your house apart board by board.
We have one of America's finest...
Spiritual centers is our disdain for the wealthy.
Like, this is something that has been with us a long time as a population.
We just generally don't do this and don't like the wealth class, especially when they're like, cool, have you tried working harder?
We don't tend to take well to that.
This is the first time in my life that I can really think of where class was at such a forefront that it was actually starting to usurp Some of the power that had been taken away from it by the rights culture war, right?
So, like, this has some particular juice right now.
And I think we have a real chance to see something truly different come out of this purely because it's the necessity now.
Yeah, it's always pregnant with the birth of something that will replace it.
That's the way that's...
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Well, Carl, it has been such a pleasure talking to you as always.
Tell the good people where to find you.
You can find me on Blue Sky.
I'm not on Twitter anymore.
Blue Sky is that brain not on yet.
You can find me at the website at unrealdispatches at instituteunreality.com.
