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March 8, 2022 - The Muckrake Political Podcast

01:02:50

Russian Propaganda Takes A Sinister Turn

Co-hosts Jared Yates Sexton and Nick Hauselman discuss the latest symbology the Russians are using in their war with Ukraine, and what it could mean as a lure to right wing conservatives in the United States. Plus, they welcome to the show Melissa Ryan of ctrlaltrightdelete.com to discuss the latest in misinformation as it relates to Republicans and their campaigns. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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	Hey everybody, welcome to the Mccrae Podcast.
	for the support that is so needed to Donbass and our military forces.
	Donbass and our military forces are not allowed to be a military force.
	But before that, we are keeping an eye on, as always, the weird, the esoteric, the troubling, and something is starting to take hold in Russia and in Ukraine that has disturbed me.
	Uh, there is a bizarre symbol that is starting to show up, not just on Russian tanks, but in state sponsored media and propaganda.
	Uh, it is a large white Z that, um, I, I don't know how else to describe it.
	It's upsetting.
	Is it not Nick?
	It's upsetting.
	Well, let's keep talking about it.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	There's a lot of reactions, a lot of reasons for why this is what they're doing and what it is, but you know, let's continue.
	Well, so the reason we want to talk about this is because, you know, in our coverage so far of Putin's invasion of Ukraine, we've talked about how Putin has not necessarily rallied the people to his cause.
	This has been seen as a very Putin-centric
	Idea a crusade of sorts and of course this has background with the ideology of people like Alexander Dugin and other esoteric mysticists who have Given him this almost historical mission Meanwhile, you have a bunch of oligarchs who are sitting around looking at their wallets and you know their online bank accounts They don't look great right now the Russian people are protesting in record numbers and putting their their lives and their fates on the line and
	But it does feel as if the type of ideology or the type of mission that makes these things possible and can convince people to sacrifice their lives and carry out incredible cruelties, it feels like this is starting to fall into place somewhat.
	Okay.
	I mean, I understand where you're going.
	I mean, when we're talking about these white Z's on the tanks, at the very least, you know, you can talk to people who are in the military and they would say that, you know, because the Ukrainian military, you know, equipment is very similar to the Russians, it's hard to differentiate.
	So, they figured they'd put a white Z on there and that lets the Russians know who's friendly and who's not.
	Does that resonate with you at all?
	That I think is where this thing has started.
	And to give people the background on this, you know, this is one of these things where as the Russians are going into Ukraine, sometimes it gets hard to tell who is who, right?
	Which can lead to some friendly fire situations.
	This can also...
	There are all kinds of symbols that get put on this military hardware that tells people what unit they're a part of, what their mission is.
	With the United States of America, we rely mostly on, like, chyrons.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, these sort of, like, shapes and colors and things like that.
	I think it began there.
	And what is slowly started to take hold is, uh, and by the way, if you ask anybody what it means, you get multiple explanations.
	One is that it translates to za padae, or for victory.
	Other people say it's zapad, or the idea that it's moving west, right?
	It's going into the west and sort of taking over territory.
	But over time, it's moved from the front lines, it's moved from the troops, and suddenly around Russia, around Moscow, on state-sponsored media, all of a sudden their propaganda is starting to feature this Z. All of a sudden you're starting to see a bunch of right-wing nationalist groups wearing shirts and clothes that are adorned with these Zs.
	We even saw, and Nick, I know this is one of your favorite bit players from the Trump years, Marie Butina, who was a Russian spy who came over and charmed a bunch of members of the NRA while Russian money was being sent to the NRA and they were pushing them further and further towards Putin.
	Butina has now made a video of herself drawing the letter Z on a blazer of hers in order to show support of Vladimir Putin.
	So this thing is starting to take on a life all of its own.
	We saw a Russian gymnast who I think got a silver medal in whatever competition they're in now with a Z, wearing a Z on it as well.
	So, you know, obviously, you know, there is no Z in the Russian alphabet.
	So this is another one of those layers of interestingness and so I mean I think I know where you're going and obviously when we're talking about symbols and we're talking about people and nationalism and and war and all these different things it obviously draws back to what we saw in Germany in the Nazis and the Z could very well you know sort of become that swastika symbol which I think is is your biggest concern is that where we're getting it?
	No, it absolutely is.
	And real fast, I'm gonna convince Nick to put in some sounds from this video I'm getting ready to reference, because even if you don't speak Russian, it don't feel good.
	No.
	No, right?
	Am I not wrong in this video that I sent to you?
	It doesn't feel great.
	No, I mean well first of all it's a drone flying over this like you know militaristic group of people standing around and so that just is all it's it's like you get like a seasick or not whatever that motion sickness from watching this thing because it's so it's so extreme of the camera movements.
	Yeah and so basically it is it's it's this state-sponsored propaganda that has a bunch of young people who are wearing it's I don't know how else to describe it they're wearing like It's almost like workout centric wear, athleisure wear that has like Putin's name on it and like Russian propaganda on it.
	Meanwhile, they're obviously talking about the greatness of Russia.
	You said you'd come across a translation of it.
	Yeah.
	And like, you know, stuff about killing babies in Ukraine, I believe, is part of that, the translation.
	So, you know, that gets to be really concerning when they start to do that stuff, because that sounds just like over here, right?
	Literally anytime that you're standing in a room with a bunch of people who are dressed like you and you're screaming about killing babies That's a bad move somewhere along the way and so meanwhile we have somebody come out and sing some nationalistic rock and roll hard metal song which by the way is Kind of how Putin's entire appeal has worked this entire time as he has been cultivating this sort of
	Push that he is like the one thing standing between the Russian people and the New World Order.
	And in the past couple of days, I've been keeping track and keeping eyes on Putin, along with the Orthodox Church, religious leaders, far right wing figures.
	They're all basically now telling people they're going to come in.
	They're going to make your kids gay.
	They're going to assault your kids.
	They're going to kill your babies.
	All of it is right-wing talking points with just cans of gas being thrown on it.
	And it seems like as things are going really, really poorly in Ukraine for the fighting forces, and in large part because people don't want to fight this battle, they don't want to fight this war, they're sabotaging the vehicles that they're in, they're sabotaging efforts.
	As this is happening, it feels like, and Melissa Ryan will say this a little bit in the interview, that they haven't landed on a story yet, right, because...
	The right wing hasn't figured out how to frame this thing.
	What it's missing right now is a core.
	It's missing like a gravity that all of these different groups can sort of coalesce around.
	And it feels like the more that this symbol and the more that this propaganda starts to propagate and is being used by the state, it feels like they're trying to create that core in order to try and solidify this effort.
	Right.
	So, I mean, to continue that train of thought, you're thinking we're going to start seeing people wear Z around, you know, these right-wingers in America.
	And, right?
	I, listen, I...
	I wouldn't be shocked.
	I would tell you that that's insane.
	That's crazy.
	It would never happen.
	But I just lived through the last five, six years here in this country.
	And we've seen how the gravitation toward authoritarianism works here and how easy it is for them to slip into that.
	So I can't tell you now that you're crazy and that won't happen.
	And listen, I hope like hell I'm wrong on this, but I wanted to take a minute and talk about how these things work and how ideology and symbols, how they do these things, and why you reach a moment where, I don't know, a country of millions starts wearing swastikas and starts going to like torch lit parades, right?
	This whole thing is about money.
	It's about territory.
	It's about power.
	Well, guess what?
	When you just say to people, I want to be richer.
	I want more territory.
	I want more leverage in my war to try and, you know, destroy globalism.
	People don't get up for that.
	You know, like there's nothing in it for them.
	And in fact, as the West starts to really strangle Russia economically, All of a sudden you look up and you're like, I can't afford to feed my family.
	The ruble is absolutely cratered.
	There's no meaning in this for me, right?
	Obviously, I want this to stop as soon as possible.
	Well, unless you start adding religious elements to it.
	Right?
	And all of a sudden it becomes something to have faith in.
	All of a sudden it becomes something to define yourself by.
	The reason the swastika took off was because it was basically a rallying symbol, a Make America Great Again hat, if you will, in which you see that other people are like you and suddenly you feel as if you're part of something larger than yourself, which overcomes any type of suffering that you can find.
	Now, do I think that American right-wingers are going to start wearing the Z?
	Listen, I'm with you.
	I can't rule that out.
	I can't, because if this thing takes off and it actually works, but we need to remember this is marketing.
	You know what I mean?
	It really is trying to sell this feeling of belonging to one another, and looking at it and watching it start to make the rounds, it's starting to feel like it's got potential.
	It's almost like, to go to your world, it's almost like you see a young athlete and you're like, wow, they've got something, right?
	They've got something going for it.
	In terms of marketing, this feels Like, it has potential to take off and gain meaning, the type of meaning that people like Putin need it to have.
	I mean, continue that train of thought about, you know, my other side of the world where, you know, you like a player and you want to buy his jersey.
	Or you're like a team and you want to buy their jersey and you wear and you feel you feel proud and you want to wear it out and you might even want to wear like a Bears jersey and walk around Green Bay, Wisconsin right and feel that.
	By the way, I did that when I went to University of Wisconsin the Bears beat the Packers one and we marched around with a flag of the Bears and people were throwing shit at us whatever but I got to tell you That there was something about that, certainly as a young person, that I really kind of enjoyed.
	And the worry is that that's the same kind of reaction you're going to get from doing this.
	But this is not just people playing football.
	This is people dying.
	Well, it's not because part of it, and this was actually something I think that people like Hitler and Goebbels sort of figured out.
	It's kind of fun for people to play the villain.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, there's something, and I mean, professional wrestling spends a lot of time on this.
	I mean, if a professional wrestler came out and they were part of like a villainous stable that had a black shirt with a white Z on it and big, broad strokes, like, I mean, that's almost like the old New World Order idea.
	You know what I mean?
	It's like, it's fun to root for the bad guys.
	In this case, you're exactly right.
	It is the thing that's missing in this because so far it has been, well, we're going in to denazify them.
	Well, no, you're not.
	That's not what's happening in Ukraine.
	You're going into, you know, they're a bunch of drug addicts or whatever.
	That's not what's happening.
	What's happening here and which has given Putin and people like him so much power, including Orban and Hungary, is this idea of you are under attack from outside forces, which of course is also what Nazis said, also what fascists said.
	And that's one of the reasons why Americans started wearing swastikas.
	They started forming fascist groups for themselves, why they are engaged in Trumpism.
	There is something trollish about it, something villainous about it, and I feel like the gravity of this thing is, weirdly enough, starting to pick up speed.
	And even if it doesn't, I think it's obvious that Putin and the people around him want it to, right?
	They have designs on this thing, picking up some sort of momentum, which tells us, I think, a lot about what they're doing, where they're trying to go, and also why these things have so much power and so much sway over the things that we do.
	I agree I mean it's kind of like what the peace talks going on right now the quote-unquote peace talks it's all part of the game because clearly Russia has no interest in peace and this is pretty early in my mind to have some sort of official peace talks that would really have any effect on anything and like honestly is there going to be a conversation for two hours with these two people these two groups and they're gonna actually stop You know, attacking Ukraine?
	Like, no, right?
	That's not happening.
	So, I think that's also part of it, where they are trying to play both ends of the stick here, where they're obviously trying to win this war militarily, but they're really also trying to make sure that they can get some inroads, social media-wise, and, you know, it gives cover to the right-wing people saying, well, look, they're having talks, right?
	These are reasonable Russians here, and they're trying to make this whole thing work.
	You know what the demands are, right?
	I mean, you've seen them.
	Oh, I mean, it's total capitulation is what it is.
	And there's a part of me, I'm really waiting on, you know, quote unquote, Western powers to be like, you should take this deal, Ukraine.
	Split your country up into three and promise to be neutral.
	Let's just go ahead and do it.
	And then we'll welcome Putin back.
	Meanwhile, by the way, you know, these governments are going to Saudi Arabia.
	They're going to Venezuela.
	They're possibly even going to Iran to try and get their gas from there.
	It's such a giant mess.
	And you're right.
	Like, I look at these peace negotiations and they would be laughable if they weren't so repulsive.
	Well, by the way, in some twisted version of my mind, it is a negotiation ploy.
	Like, let's say, okay, he wants Crimea, he wants the Donbass region to be, you know, independent.
	So, let's start this war, make it look really bad, and then we'll get those things, and we'll pull out.
	So, hey, we're done.
	That was our aim to begin with.
	But we know that he wouldn't stop there, right?
	We've already seen that there were actually plans.
	They're supposed to go all the way through until Moldova.
	So, I think he would maybe stop for a week, and then he'd, you know, pick up again.
	Or a couple years.
	I mean, who really knows?
	Because what's been established right now is that you can be an aggressor.
	You can be an authoritarian who, like, challenges the order.
	And maybe they'll go after you financially, but they're not going to get involved, right?
	And in this case, you probably are going to get some land out of this thing.
	One thing that I keep thinking about, Nick, and I don't know if this has occurred to you, and I would love to get your reaction to it.
	I kind of feel like a lot of this, the way that it's played out so far, Is because the United States told everybody what he was going to do and included the false flag plan, right?
	The plan was to create this false flag.
	They had even made a video of it.
	They had already made a bunch of images of this false flag where Ukraine would gas a town or shell a town or whatever.
	And they said, this is what's going to happen.
	Which it seems like that's exactly what Putin was going to try and do to give himself the opening to go in.
	I feel like the United States and Nick, I'm going to say this, you might want to keep this for a future best of show.
	I don't know.
	I don't like to do this, but you got to give credit to the United States intelligence community.
	I don't like saying that.
	And obviously there's other stuff going on that if it came to light, like it would look really, really bad.
	But the fact that they said that, and the fact that they put it out in the light, it feels like it took away the story.
	It feels like it took away the narrative before Putin could use it, and they've just been scrambling ever since, and it feels like now, after all this time, they're finally starting to settle on that story.
	They're finally starting to get their acts together.
	Does that hit right with you?
	Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense to me.
	And I and I just wonder how well it's going to work.
	You know, the interesting thing about like being a globalism or against globalism or isolationism, because it seems to be that's what appeals to a lot of the right wing.
	We don't we don't want to deal with anybody else's problems out there, right?
	We want to stay here.
	I think, you know, real fast to get this clear.
	I think the anti-globalist talk about isolationism, but they're more saying it to dismantle the current globalist system so everyone can go to their own corners and then come out swinging, right?
	Because they would not not go out and get new territory and conquer people and engage in imperialism.
	They would get rid of the order, destroy it, and then fight to figure out their own order.
	I think that's how everybody kind of looks at it.
	Okay, because then the other level to that is, you know, one of the reasons why Putin is so threatened by Ukraine is that they're right next to Russia, and it's a more open society, and they obviously want to join NATO, but, you know, join the West more, and that's very threatening because, now here's the thing, it's already threatening because the Internet exists in Russia.
	So people are already, you know, being exposed, whereas behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War, they were not.
	So they might have been miserable, it might have been a terrible experience, but they didn't necessarily know firsthand exactly what was going on.
	They might have been, you know, in the 80s, they might have heard about Elvis, right?
	Like you'd hear how long it would take for them to get any kind of information like that.
	There are stories of people having to, like, basically bootleg rock and roll records and sneak them into Russia and sort of, like, rip off blue jeans, you know?
	Like, you're exactly right.
	There is an exposure there, and to an extent... And you know what's funny, actually, in the history of it?
	Like, Khrushchev basically staked his entire regime on trying to give the Russian people blue jeans, rock and roll, and, you know, house goods.
	And it did him in.
	And in this case, it feels like Putin has done something where it's tried to give them the veneer of a Western society, while all of this control has been in place.
	Like, just give them the illusion of it, but without any of the actual human perks.
	Right.
	And then they could also, they could control the internet.
	That's the other thing, is they could shut off websites that they want at any time, so that there was that feeling that it's not out of their control.
	Which is what's happening now.
	They've basically completely destroyed any type of free speech and free press now.
	And on the flip side, other businesses have now stopped doing any kind of business in Russia as well.
	So it's going to be a problem, and again, is there a solution?
	Can you see now that we're, what, two weeks into this conflict, is there going to be a way where Ukraine stays intact and Russia has to back off?
	I really don't know, and part of it The thing that really scares me, man, is that the Western powers just want to be done with this thing.
	You know, they really just want to just roll it up and get back to purchasing all the gas and all, you know, and working with Putin.
	They want us to forget about this thing, look the other way, basically get George W. Bush out on an aircraft carrier and announce mission accomplished.
	That's what they want, right?
	In all of this, I don't know.
	I feel like Unfortunately, I feel like the Western powers are not addressing the corruption.
	They're not addressing the dependence on oil.
	They're not addressing authoritarianism.
	So basically what we have at this point is kicking the can down the road.
	And this thing right now, this is important too with the Z thing.
	Those troops, maybe they didn't want to fight in this war, right?
	And maybe they thought that this was a waste of their time and resources.
	Well, it doesn't matter.
	Like, people who went into Vietnam who knew that the war was terrible, they died and they bled with their fellow troop members, and that gave them meaning.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, they found meaning in the suffering and in the sacrifice, which means that you're going to now have a bunch of Ukrainians, a bunch of Russians who have now gone through the horrors of war, and that's going to create its own meaning and its own momentum, and God knows where that takes us.
	I mean, there are consequences to all these things that are going to play out for years.
	If you haven't watched the reboot of Catch-22 that George Clooney was involved with recently, it's some of the best TV I've seen in a long time.
	The cinematography, the writing, the directing, everything.
	And it just accentuates the incredible ridiculousness of war.
	And this is what I tweeted out the other day, and you need to help me understand this.
	So, you know, every NATO country can give all the arms they can handle over to Ukraine.
	Ukraine can pull the trigger and blow up the Russians.
	And that doesn't bother Putin because it's not Americans pulling the trigger.
	Of the same equipment, the same weapons, all that stuff, made by America, made by Poland, made by whoever else.
	And so, but it's absurd, right?
	All because we don't have this one certain kind of person pulling that trigger.
	That's okay.
	Then now we're not going to nuke anybody.
	We're not going to expand this war.
	It just seems absurd to me.
	I don't know how to wrap my head around that.
	Well, do you, when you were a kid, did you ever play with all the other kids and like one kid would start making up a game and the rules just got weirder and more arbitrary?
	And meanwhile, you're like, I don't even know quite what's going on, but I guess I'll go along with it.
	The rules of engagement, the way that these ties come in, like right now, everybody knows that the West is giving unbelievable amounts of weapons and resources to the Ukrainians.
	And I mean, listen, if I told you right now that there was like, I don't know, Special forces in in Ukraine right now, United States Special Forces.
	Would you be shocked?
	You wouldn't be shocked, right?
	And and we're even hearing about a bunch of American veterans who are starting to go in.
	You're telling me none of those people who are going in there have any links to American intelligence or the military?
	They're all just veterans?
	Like, oh, okay, that's fine.
	We can pretend like all that's above board, whatever.
	They're basically trying really, really hard, everybody involved here, to just step between a lot of lines, like Catherine Zeta-Jones between the laser beams and the movie, right?
	They're trying really hard not to set off any of the major alarms or any of the major conflicts.
	But the more of these rules and the more of these situations that you have, the more chance there is of setting off that situation.
	History tells us like World War One, there wasn't a nation that thought that World War One was necessarily going to be what it was.
	Many of them just, uh, the, the famous phrases, they, they slept walk, you know, they, they, they just slept walked into it.
	And, uh, they, they just woke up one day and suddenly they were in like the most catastrophic war in modern history.
	This is a really complicated mess that if you try and wrap your head around, it'll give you a migraine.
	It'll make you see double in no time at all.
	It's an absolute hairy mess.
	Yeah, I mean, that's a great way to put it.
	It's just the absurdity that... And by the way, you know, I know that there were probably, you know, hawkish people in the United States who would have wanted to go to war with Russia once they found out that they were paying Afghanistan soldiers to kill Americans, right?
	And it's like in the movie, it's like, if you go in there, we disown you, we don't know you, you're going to be tortured, we cannot afford to say that we sent you in there.
	And it's like that same kind of thing that would be happening now with the people who are, you know, going on their own or whatever they're doing.
	And it just feels to me like, I don't know, it's almost like if Putin realized that American Tomahawk missiles destroyed their entire convoy, wouldn't that have been enough for him to then say that we're at war?
	Even if Americans didn't fire the Tomahawk missiles?
	I mean, these are great questions and it depends on the time of the day.
	Yeah, and he could say that.
	He could actually use the rules of engagement against everybody and say, well, this is an act of war.
	What I'm hearing you say, it sounds almost like the international systems are a big, giant mess.
	And I'll say this also, this reminds me a lot of the Spanish Civil War.
	It reminds me a lot of this big, Giant, just a tinderbox.
	That all of the major powers are watching.
	They know that it's problematic.
	Meanwhile, they don't want to get involved.
	They'll go ahead and give some arms over, right?
	They'll go ahead and give some resources over.
	Meanwhile, people from around the world are like, well, if my government's not going to get involved, well, I'm going to hop on a ship and I'm going to go over and fight.
	You know, George Orwell did that.
	That's one of the ways that George Orwell sort of came into his own and recognized what was going on in the world.
	So I think that this is It's a situation that could spiral out of control.
	Like, we could look up and this thing could be an absolute mess in a proportion that we could never totally understand.
	But meanwhile, Nick, we're still waiting on shoes to drop.
	I mean, China is just allying itself more and more with Russia.
	And I got to tell you, the fact that China is economically becoming more interconnected with Russia, people don't like it when the horse that they're backing is going to lose and they're going to lose all of their investment.
	Like, it could be a situation where we look up suddenly, and Taiwan's in play.
	And if that happens, then that's a totally different conversation that we're having.
	But this is a, again, it's a massive mess, and we're still not dealing with the actual forces that are taking place here.
	And without question, Biden and the U.S.
	has to figure out a way where they can maybe get some leverage between Russia and China, and then ultimately get China to pressure Russia.
	By the way, that might be the only way to end this as well, is that China, Tom Friedman wrote an op-ed today for the New York Times, just trying real hard to make that happen, so I have to assume that's just a couple of seconds from happening.
	And by the way, while we're on the subject, I love that you were talking about the tensions in the Midwest, and your dad on.
	The New York Times is already posting an op-ed that's about how a right-wing conservative college student felt like she couldn't speak out in a class.
	It's just same old stuff.
	And meanwhile, again, the administration is trying to figure out where to get the oil from.
	We can't talk about getting off oil or the fact that oil caused so much of this, or that corruption caused this.
	We just can't really sit with this stuff and actually figure out what we're doing.
	Well, I hope I'm wrong about, well, all of it.
	I hope I'm wrong about all of it.
	I hope we look back on this and have a great laugh.
	Okay.
	A laugh like that.
	I hope this Z thing just completely falls on its face, because it feels really, really bad.
	But, to help us make sense of all this, when we come back, we're going to have Melissa Ryan of Control-Alt-Right-Delete.com, misinformation expert, one of my favorites.
	We'll be right back.
	All right, everybody, we are back, and Melissa Ryan is back, and it's been way too long since we've had Melissa on the podcast.
	Melissa is an expert in disinformation, and you can find her work over at Control-Alt-Right-Delete.com, a great, great newsletter we are having her on in order to talk about a recent article that was put out about the Republican Party's response to the war in Ukraine, or rather their Thank you so much for having me.
	their muted response, their changing response.
	So yeah, thanks for coming on, Melissa. - Thank you so much for having me.
	It's good to be back. - So Melissa, when this thing started up, we've been following what's been going on with the extreme right in the United States of America.
	We had been documenting how Putinism had taken hold here for years and years and years.
	Polls showed that Republicans, not just leadership, but the Republican base, Preferred Vladimir Putin over Democratic presidents.
	I think the most recent one was Joe Biden and it wasn't even close.
	The GOP has been, I don't know if I can say a kinder way, they've been really screwing this whole thing up.
	They don't exactly know how to handle this situation.
	How would you sum it up?
	What has happened so far?
	Yeah, I mean, I think the long and short of it is a political party that's been happy to play fascist and play footsies with fascists for years and years.
	I think they were completely surprised by the public's, not just in America, by the global public's overwhelming response.
	to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and have been without a way, without a solid message around it.
	You know, this is a party that was becoming, you know, as you mentioned, more and more open to Putinism.
	Russia has been in the party platform.
	You know, obviously the leader of the party is President Trump, who has had the world's biggest crush on Putin for years.
	You've seen it from Fox News hosts.
	You've seen it, you know, in various right-wing communities.
	So they were completely unprepared for how the world would respond to this.
	And to the credit, I think, of GOP electeds, at least smart enough to realize that a course correction was necessary.
	They haven't actually figured out what that course correction is yet, but they know they need it.
	So that's been, for me, it's been very entertaining to watch them fall all over themselves and try to find some semblance of a message around this.
	Yeah, Nick, I just want to go ahead and break some news, and I hope I'm not stepping on your toes here, but the Muckrig podcast does not endorse playing footsie with fascists.
	We are anti-fascist footsie.
	Is that right, Nick?
	Are we okay with that?
	I'll allow it.
	You'll allow it.
	It's good that you're taking a hard line.
	Well, I'm kind of curious.
	Do you think that they were relying on the normal attention span of Americans after a couple of days?
	We'd forget about this.
	Putin would take over Ukraine in two or three days and that would be it.
	And then we have to kind of wring our hands the next time he does this.
	Do you think that that's what they were waiting on?
	And then now that Ukraine is sort of, you know, had a nice resistance to this, it's drawing out and more people are more focused on it.
	I don't even know that it was that deep.
	I don't think they expected Americans to care at all.
	And many clearly seem to have convinced themselves that, you know, Putin wasn't going to invade or if he was, it wasn't going to be a full scale invasion.
	So despite the fact that, you know, the American, the Biden administration's government and the UK government had been telegraphing intelligence for, you know, literally weeks saying this is exactly what Russia is planning.
	The party seems to have been completely caught unaware by the reality of it.
	And I do think that's because for some of these folks and, you know, I used to work on political campaigns.
	The cycle of political operatives is not that long or that deep.
	I think for a lot of folks, this is probably their first real brush with what Putinism actually is, with what kind of leader this actually is.
	To me, I think that felt like a big thing.
	I also think they were unprepared for Zelensky in particular.
	there's so much of a focus on the right on this myth of masculinity.
	And I know you all talk about this a lot.
	And Zelensky just sort of fits into that mold so well, not just, I don't know if it's deliberate on his part or not.
	I'm sure we'll talk about him a little later.
	But he has managed to look in a very right wing frame more masculine than Putin right now.
	And I think there's some some cultural schisms going on with that as well.
	So we're going to dig in a little bit about where the Republican Party has found itself.
	I mean, Mike Pence, Mike Pence has made a decision that he sees his lane to the presidency, which is brave for somebody who could have got, you know, hung on January 6th by his own party.
	But I wanted to talk real fast about the initial reaction, because it seemed like a lot of the Republicans sort of sat on their hands to kind of see where things went.
	But there were a couple of horses that got out in the race real, real fast in a big way.
	And of course, we're talking about Tucker Carlson and Donald Trump.
	Donald Trump's reaction.
	I really don't know how else to say it was stupid.
	Just a really stupid, bumbling idiot response to it that, you know, was basically an older know-it-all man who wanted to pretend like he knew what was going on in the news, you know, as he watched Fox News in his clubhouse.
	Tucker Carlson.
	He jumped out on this thing and really tried to bring his audience and the right-wing circles around to not only accepting what Putin was doing, but cheering it on.
	And it took a couple of days, probably through sort of the brutality that got displayed, but he started couching his support.
	And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you felt about Tucker's little adventure with Putinism.
	Yeah, I mean, I was not surprised, you know, based on where Tucker Carlson has been politically for some time on his show that that was his initial line.
	It would be really interesting.
	It would be great to be a fly on the wall.
	Like, what was the conversation with the Fox News executive who's like, OK, you got to dial it back.
	And at what decision point does Fox News decide that they have to try to rein in Tucker Carlson?
	Because I'm guessing it wasn't You know, based on what seems like his judgment, I am guessing it was not a decision that he made, but was probably made for him.
	I have no way of knowing that, but just based on what we know about Carlson's politics and the material that ends up on his show, it seemed like it was probably, likely a network decision.
	Help me figure this out, sort of historically, and I know we've talked about this before on our pod and even maybe with you before, but the idea that, isn't there some sort of anti-Soviet slash Russian sentiment deep in the annals of these right-wing people's brains that would resonate at all now that we're here again?
	There have been a couple of Republicans who have been like, now Americans see what communism would be, which is just, yeah.
	Just some of the greatest brain leaders in the country.
	Really?
	I think I've missed that, by the way.
	Tommy Tuberville got out there about Soviet Communism.
	Maybe you should go back and get the clipboard and call some more players, my friend.
	And you got hit a couple times, too many times.
	And you can't see a reaction.
	I was, my head in my hands and whatever because of this notion that Communism is what's going on in Russia right now versus what it used to be.
	So please, I'm sorry, continue.
	Oh, I'm sorry, what was the original question?
	So just the idea that like, I don't under, I mean, and by the way, I'm actually making the same connection where I'm like, the right wing for all those years in the Cold War had the enemy as Russia, sorry, as the Soviet Union, so it was easy for them, they're the enemy.
	And then you would think that they're in the back of their mind somewhere, there would be this little reminder or memory like, well, yes, they are bad and we shouldn't support them.
	But it doesn't, that's not happening, right?
	Well, maybe that flips switch flips for Tommy, at least.
	No, no, I think that's true.
	But, you know, the far right and I feel silly explaining this to y'all because this is your beat, but this is a global movement.
	It is a global movement for for nationalism.
	It's a global movement against what they call globalism, which always cracks me up.
	But Putin and in particular has invested heavily in far right parties and resourced the right globally.
	You know, I think in the U.S., you know, everybody thinks about the Russian social media stuff, but they also were clearly funding the NRA for many years.
	You know, that's documented journalism.
	Some of the stuff they did with hacking and leaking and meddling with our election.
	So, you know, it's infiltrated the party for quite some time.
	And again, the standard bearer, the leader of the party, President Trump, also has a deep love affair.
	I can't emphasize this enough times.
	For Putin, it's interesting because I think, you know, there's a lot of things of like, oh, what dirt does Putin have on him?
	And I'm not necessarily sure that any dirt would be necessary because Trump seems to adore the guy so much.
	So, you know, that's been the standard bearer of the party for some time.
	And again, political operatives tend not to last too, too long.
	So you have a lot of folks who are in comms positions, who are donors to the party, who probably don't even remember the Cold War.
	So I'm watching this thing with the Republican Party, including what's happening with Tucker Carlson.
	And I can't help but escape the feeling that they're going under the radar while this is such a, you know, a popular sentiment to oppose this war, that the moment that they can figure out some sort of a pivot to go ahead and support Putin and authoritarianism, that they're going to take it.
	And I can't help.
	And Melissa, I'd love to hear what you have to say about this.
	I can't help but somehow feel somehow or another they're going to figure out a way to blame all this on Joe Biden calling him weak, saying that this was some sort of a militaristic failure on the part of the United States of America, despite the fact that they've been, you know, tongue kissing Vladimir Putin's boots for years now. despite the fact that they've been, you know, tongue kissing
	It feels like somehow or another, they're going to move this thing around, sort of turn it around on itself and come out on the other side, both supporting Putin, but also blaming people for not standing up for him the right way.
	Does that sound somewhat feasible?
	It seems within the realm of the possible.
	I mean, right now they're clearly trying to make Biden and Zelensky foils of one another and saying, oh, Biden looks weak on the world stage.
	He's so weak compared to Zelensky.
	And it's like, well, A, they're on the same side.
	You know, be given Trump's particular history with Ukraine and cutting off military aid to Ukraine, which, by the way, Congress impeached him for.
	Maybe this is not a road you want to go down.
	I think what's what's more likely to happen is you're going to see when oil prices start to go up, pinning that that to Biden and the Biden presidency and acting like it has nothing to do with with the current conflict.
	By the way, Melissa, I heard something you said.
	I just want to check on this.
	Wait, Donald Trump was impeached for impeding weapons deliveries to Ukraine?
	How is this not something that everybody's talking about?
	That's so strange.
	Is that true?
	It's also fascinating that people don't seem to realize it's the same leader.
	That Zelensky is the exact same leader that Trump was, you know, interfering with.
	You'd think this would be all over the place, Nick.
	You'd think that this would be something people would be talking about.
	Definitely not.
	No, no, no.
	That's being shaken down.
	And then what that effect would have had on Russia in terms of viewing Ukraine?
	Weird.
	Oh, no.
	The first impeachment.
	It's like we almost forget that the first impeachment happened.
	Right.
	Impeachment one.
	Is that what we're calling it now?
	I think part of that, in all fairness to Americans just trying to live their lives in the chaos that is now, I think part of it is You know, and part of the magic of Trump was there was just so much shit incoming constantly that it was hard to keep track of all of the scandals, even if it was your job.
	It's so weird because everybody always told me I would remember my first impeachment.
	Really odd.
	Feels like the first time.
	Well, in terms of following, because let's talk about your beat.
	How have you noticed disinformation during this conflict?
	Because one of the things I've noticed is that The bots, the projects, they've changed.
	And there have been these waves of these things.
	I know you've been on this beat for a while.
	They go in weird waves.
	You can tell whenever a flip gets switched.
	And they feel at this point like there's a lot of disinformation that's out there, but it feels different.
	And it certainly feels as if it's been affected by the economic sanctions that have taken place.
	What have you noticed surrounding this?
	I haven't noticed that.
	I've definitely noticed a lot of folks ready to jump to conclusions about how the economic sanctions have affected disinformation or what trolls are doing.
	And I just want to caution folks before they come to a conclusion on that, because the fact is we just don't know.
	And unfortunately, you can't research this stuff in real time.
	I think we're disinformation researchers are getting better at it.
	So I would just say be cautious.
	There was that tweet that went viral the other day that was like, oh, these sanctions went on Russia and all the top 10 posts changed.
	And to the author's credit, so I won't name him, he deleted the tweet and said, well, here's why I was thinking that, but I also understand why you can't necessarily jump to that conclusion.
	I will say what I have noticed just sort of tracking the right wing communities that I normally do is that they're just all over the place.
	There's a lot of, well, what happened to the trucker?
	There are a lot of ones who are still trying to make the trucker convoy happen.
	Trying really hard to get folks to focus on the trucker convoy.
	There are folks who are like, I don't care about Ukraine, America first.
	There are, you know, what are likely if, you know, if there is Russian propaganda, if the Russian trolls are out there in American spaces right now, you can definitely see some folks being like, but wait, we like Putin.
	But there hasn't been one thing coalesced or what you see oftentimes with the right is they'll say, oh, well, the actual problem is Antifa or the actual scandal is Seth Rich.
	And they'll come up with this great conspiracy to get themselves focused on.
	And we haven't seen that yet either, which is really interesting.
	So I'll be interested to see what that ends up being. - So one thing I've been tracking over the past couple of days has been this absolutely ludicrous story that every building that's being bombed by Putin's forces is a bio lab that the globalists are using in order to create, if it didn't create COVID, it's creating the next COVID or whatever.
	Who is it that's believing this?
	Is this like a purely QAnon type thing?
	Or is it just in this sort of far reaches?
	Or do you see that finding any sort of purchase?
	I mean, there's so much overlap with QAnon and the right generally at this point.
	And I think even folks who would never associate the word QAnon, you know, seem to believe these kinds of conspiracies about, you know, the New World Order and globalists and how the entire left are, you know, pedophiles, etc.
	It seems like there's never been more openness than these type of conspiracies.
	It's just become more and more prominent and more almost mainstream in the past few years.
	So I'm not surprised that the Biolab stuff has taken hold.
	You know, I'm also curious, like, you know, is there moments or are there moments when people who are absorbing this misinformation are presented with perhaps the real information or the facts?
	Are you aware of those situations and what the reaction is when they are faced with this moment of whether or not to believe the misinformation or not?
	So I am actually really hopeful and I have no data to back this up.
	I think because of the public outcry and the global opinion, I've not seen the world united on anything this much since well before Trump.
	Like, I can't think of the last time that global opinion has been so persuaded one way.
	And that strikes me as a potential off-ramp for folks.
	Particularly one advantage of the right not being on message is that creates an opening.
	So, you know, now might be a good time to try to talk to your right wing uncle or your cousin who you love, but also just believes all this crazy shit.
	I think part of that and tell me if I'm wrong.
	I think part of that is the fact that Putin's entire ideology and we're going to talk about this more on the episode today is based on like fighting the new world order and this globalist, you know, satanic cabal.
	And, you know, I'm even watching I almost immediately when this thing was heating up, I turned on Alex Jones.
	I was like, I want to see how Alex handles this.
	And by the way, spoiler, not well.
	Like just Alex Jones can't figure out what narrative he wants to tell.
	First thing, it wasn't going to happen.
	Second thing, Putin, by the way, this wasn't a real war.
	Putin has already bought off the Ukrainian army and they're not even going to put up a fight and it's going to be fine.
	This is all theater.
	And it just keeps going.
	You name it.
	It feels like what is hindering the right here is because one of their own has obviously done something which is indefensible outside of just throwing down with the most absurd conspiracy theories and lies it feels like this is one of those moments and i hope you're right where there is sort of um a crossroads with conspiracy theories and radicalization yeah it's it's it's a moment of reality i
	I mean, the other thing that I think is interesting is they're always talking about on the far right about sovereignty and the right of a nation to be sovereign.
	And, you know, what Putin did is the exact opposite of that.
	So that has to be a disconnect, too.
	And we both know there's going to be something right.
	There's going to be another.
	They're going to congeal around a message.
	They are going to try a distraction.
	You know, they're going to be in lockstep before too long.
	But the fact that it has gone on this long, this is like a longer incubation period for them, has been really fascinating to me.
	And I'm hopeful that it can be an off-ramp for some folks.
	You know, you mentioned how Tucker was most likely, you know, strong-armed into changing his tune.
	And again, they clearly are just looking at ratings, I suppose, or reaction to the shows and realizing very quickly they have to change.
	Cable providers at this point because I think it's just the my pillow guy left advertising on Fox News Okay, interesting.
	So you're so you're saying so the advertisers are not the ones pulling out.
	It's just the it's the sentiment Media matters and other groups have done such a great job of scaring Advertisers away from Fox News and I think at this point it's literally just the cable providers who keep them on Wow.
	Oh Well, and you know, we saw Mike Lindell the other day on the news too, so he's still around.
	But I'm kind of curious, so what do you think is what's making all these right-wingers respond to the Ukraine story in this way?
	I mean, is it just like the underdog that everybody likes and then maybe somehow connects to our Americanism in a way?
	I do think part of it comes down to like the myth of masculinity and the way that Zelensky comes off and has presented himself.
	I think that's something that folks, you know, it's an image that As a contrast to Putin, it's it's fascinating because I think he looks, you know, more masculine.
	Again, I don't want to be like more masculine as a fact, but more masculine in the way that the right views masculinity.
	I think that has a big part of it.
	And again, I think the thing of sovereignty, of the idea that, you know, every nation should should have the right of sovereignty and not have to be beholden to this global movement.
	And, you know, Putin just went in and invaded another nation outright.
	By the way, I want to go ahead.
	We care about accuracy on this show.
	The advertisers left on Fox News are Mike Lindell's MyPillow and Jitterbug non-smartphones.
	So those are that's what's paying the bills right now, just so we're clear.
	Well, in the interest of talking about what's happening right now, which I think it's pretty clear that this is the first real social media war.
	It's a very strange thing to open up your Twitter or your Facebook right now and see how this plays out.
	And in the case of what's happening in Ukraine, there is both misinformation, obviously, that's being peddled by Russian state media, but there's also misinformation that's being peddled in defense of Ukraine.
	There's like myths that are being put out there.
	There's like doctored photos, doctored videos, all of that stuff.
	What's it like trying to comb through this in real time, watching this sort of firehose of history just go full force?
	Yeah, well, I want to push back on the idea that it's the first social media war.
	I think it's the first social media war that Americans have been paying close attention to.
	Completely agree.
	But when you think about, like, Syria, when you think about Myanmar, I mean, social media has been, unfortunately, part of war conflict for the last 10, 15 years.
	So I think that's really important.
	You know, and I think The it's hard to sort through.
	I, at this point, am pretty good at slowing down.
	So when I look at something or I see a tweet or a video, you know, stop and take a beat.
	And, you know, I'm I know sort of how to try to figure out if it's real or not.
	I know I know the reporters who are on the beat who've probably tweeted about it, too.
	But I think for anyone just trying to sort through that for themselves.
	It can be a particularly challenging time.
	I actually really appreciate that Twitter has constantly had on its trending topics, how to fact check stuff you see.
	You know, I hope that that's a resource that people are using.
	But I think it's important for anyone who's looking at this, the most important thing is to take a beat and consider, especially before you share.
	But absolutely, just to consider whether this is true, how you might verify if it's true, whether you can Google what other outlets are covering it, what reporters who cover disinformation.
	Jane, she used to be at BuzzFeed and now she's at Harvard, but she's also Ukrainian-Canadian, has been just doing an amazing job of debunking and fact-checking some of this stuff.
	So hopefully there are a lot more resources for folks who are just trying to sift through this as well.
	Don't you think this is how wars are going to be won going forward anyway, though?
	And kind of how they had been won in the past is just sort of the power of the image from Vietnam all the way till now.
	It's almost to the point where Russia could simply say, well, we won and and then move on.
	Right.
	Let's say they don't even get control of the whole country.
	I feel like I wonder if that's what we're going towards.
	I mean, it's certainly propaganda is nothing new, but social media is a huge way to disseminate and amplify propaganda.
	And, you know, the conversations of, like, winning the meme war is real.
	It's actually really unsettling to me how quickly we have turned Zelinsky into a meme.
	Me too.
	And some of the imagery that, you know, particularly people who are trying to be supportive of, like, I've seen him as Captain America.
	I've seen him in Star Wars and Game of Thrones.
	I'm also seeing, which is even more creepy, like there was that, I feel like everybody's writing a LinkedIn piece about like how you can be, what Zelensky can teach us about leadership, which to me is like the disinformation and war propaganda I can deal with, but the like what business leaders can learn from, you know, this man trying to save his country from an invasion, just that one just blows my mind.
	Yeah, I really enjoyed David Brooks's column, which, you know, just gave Ukrainians the title of our educators and our inspirers, which is just wonderful.
	I can't wait for that book to come out.
	You know, we're going to wrap up here in a second, but I would be absolutely remiss going back to your article about how Republicans have dealt with this.
	If we did not talk about the completely laughable and pathetic display Mike Pence has tried to sew together to bring his career back.
	He has now staked his claim into saying that there cannot be any Putin apologists within the Republican Party, which, I mean, that's like saying, you know, an AA group can't have coffee.
	I mean, really, this is just a really sad attempt at this guy who, for whatever reason, thinks that he could possibly become president.
	You don't see any of this finding any kind of momentum, right?
	Pathetic and sad, I think, has pretty much defined Mike Pence's political career, certainly his eight years in the VP's office and the way President Trump repaid him for his service.
	Did it seem like eight years?
	Oh, sorry, four years, sorry.
	It did seem like eight years.
	It did seem like eight years, that is not wrong.
	Wow.
	Sometimes a day felt like eight years.
	I will say that the best, you know, I'm not always happy with how things are going right now, but I don't have to like check the news 30 times a day to see if the world is ending now that Trump is not president.
	And that alone, just I'm so grateful for.
	But going back to Pence, I can't see it working.
	You know, he is he wants to run for president.
	He needs an angle.
	His best hope is if Trump doesn't win.
	I mean, doesn't run again.
	And he's trying to contrast himself with like a DeSantis or Tom Cotton.
	But no, I can't say it working.
	You know, on January 6th, these folks were shouting, hang Mike Pence, and they faced almost no accountability.
	So, like, how do you how do you convince a base that's sympathetic to the hang Mike Pence chant to vote for you?
	I mean, I agree, especially because that section of the, well, no, the Republican Party itself, you need that, right?
	You cannot win a national election without a significant part of the chanters.
	So yes, I think it's gross what's happening with him and what he's trying.
	But I guess if you were looking at this from a purely, you know, if you're going to consult with his campaign, like this is his only hope, I guess, right?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I mean, I would never consult for Mike Pence's campaign.
	But yeah, it would definitely not be an easy job if you are trying to help Mike Pence run for president.
	Like, that is just some comms miracles that you would have to pull off.
	Oh, man.
	I just—imagining him up on a primary debate stage with Trump and just the The artillery that Trump would lob at him, and Pence would just smile and thank him for it.
	That is disturbing on a whole other level.
	Well, thanks for making us think about that, Melissa Ryan.
	Again, you can go to Control-Alt-Right-Delete.com.
	One of the best in the business, one of our favorites.
	Where can the good people find you?
	You know, you can also find me on Twitter, and I'm at Melissa Ryan.
	And you can subscribe to the newsletter from my bio link right there, too.
	Wonderful.
	Thank you so much.
	Alright everybody, we are back with Melissa Ryan of Control-Alt-Right-Delete.com.
	Misinformation expert, great guest, all-around good person.
	That's gonna about do it for the day.
	Nick, how are you feeling about all this?
	How are you feeling about the Republican Party trying to play this game?
	I'm not as worried about the whole Z thing as you might be, but I don't know why I'm not worried.
	It's not really gripping me like other things that do when you send them over to me.
	So hopefully that's transparent enough where they're like, yeah, I'm not going to start to get into some fascistic Nazi-looking stuff.
	But again, they're looking, obviously, they're looking for a way to be not wrong and they cannot handle being wrong on something.
	So if they could glam on to something, glam on to something that will like allow them to save face and that is also like pro-Putin or pro-Russia or whatever, then they will.
	But let's hope they don't find that.
	Do you feel, I brought this up and Melissa had her thoughts on it.
	What do you think long term this is going to look like?
	Because I feel like at some point the Republican Party is going to figure out some sort of Jumbled snake of a way to come back to supporting Putin going against Joe Biden, but also pretending like they didn't support the violence.
	Right.
	I think that if you want to use history as any indication, yeah, we're going to forget about this.
	Putin will finish taking over the country and we'll just sort of kick the can down the road and wait until he invades another country, right?
	Or, you know, and then maybe we have to, oh, wring our hands all over again over that and probably not do anything again.
	It's not pleasant.
	I've got a lot of anxiety these days.
	The only good news I have is that I got my AirPods back from my daughter losing them.
	Alright.
	Somebody out there did something nice.
	Well that's good.
	The god of iPods.
	Let's hope that they stay on our side.
	That's the hope.
	That's right.
	May the wind be at our AirPod sales.
	Something like that.
	Yeah, I've been feeling pretty bad about this whole thing and watching the way that it's been covered, the way it's been playing out.
	So much love and energy out to the Ukrainian people.
	What an incredible, awful situation.
	I feel terrible that they were ever put in this situation.
	I agree with Melissa.
	I'm really disturbed by what people have done with Zelensky as well as the Ukrainian people, just memeing and commodifying them.
	This is a life or death struggle and it's just awful.
	But I had said it before the war started that, you know, what I understood was the Ukrainians were like tougher and more fierce than even like the Afghanis that Russians couldn't overcome.
	So you can overcome back in the 80s.
	So I'll tell you the honest truth just to put a bow on this.
	I think it's really hard for dominant powers to go into any country now.
	I mean, whether or not it's Afghanistan, Iraq, Ukraine, you name it.
	It's just really hard.
	I mean, insurgencies are hard to break because you're not ... What are you going to do?
	Are you going to convince the people that they shouldn't exist and to welcome in their conquerors?
	That doesn't happen.
	That just doesn't By the way, looking at all the footage, I kind of took a walk around my neighborhood.
	I'm sort of, you know, almost, you know, picturing or trying to imagine, you know, that house being leveled just like someone else's in Ukraine's, you know, house being leveled.
	And it's it's weird, but that's the same thing.
	And by the way, then we have to go to the whole racism part of this, which is this has been happening in people of colors, nations for all this time, and everyone seems to care too much.
	And then all of a sudden, a bunch of white people in a white country, quote unquote, start getting bombed.
	And now it's a it's an atrocity we have to stop.
	I agree with all of that.
	I think part of it is that when and it's almost like when we talk about like neoliberalism, how like we go into other countries and we exploit those people, usually people of color.
	Right.
	And we make sure that they don't get paid anything.
	We exploit their labor.
	We exploit the resources.
	I've talked about this before.
	It boomerangs around.
	Right?
	All of the things that we do to these other countries, people of color, we end up doing to ourselves eventually as the cycle moves around.
	We're getting on the other end of that cycle.
	And that's one of the things that really frightens me, which is, again, why my ears perk up when all of a sudden I see weird mystic runes, you know, appearing on military weapons and in state-sponsored propaganda, is because you have to figure out a way to take that destruction of the self, of the Western self, You have to figure out some way to turn that into a religious experience, right?
	You have to say this is a new order.
	Something new is coming.
	Meanwhile, all of this is about climate change.
	It's about depleting resources.
	It's about austerity reaching like its critical mass.
	And all these things put together exactly what you're talking about.
	It's looking around and saying this neighborhood could be gone.
	Life could be uprooted and destroyed, which is a feeling I think that we have in our bones right now.
	It's an existential dread that we are reaching another point in this entire cycle, more or less.
	Yeah.
	Well, I'm ready for another direction, whatever that might be.
	Yeah, me too.
	Me too.
	So hopefully, hopefully, knock on wood, things will not get worse by the time we come back on Friday with The Weekender.
	If you want to gain access to that and additional hangouts and material, all you gotta do is go over to patreon.com slash mccraigpodcast.
	We are so grateful to our patrons who keep this podcast free, independent, and without ads.
	So thank you so much.
	That's patreon.com slash mccraigpodcast.
	And if you need us before Friday, you can find Nick at CanYouHearMeSMH.
	You can find me at J.Y.
	Sexton.

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