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Oct. 23, 2020 - The Muckrake Political Podcast

35:16

Sarah Kendzior and This Moment of Crisis

Hiding in Plain Sight author Sarah Kendzior joins the podcast to discuss election interference, the inherent danger of a continuing Donald Trump presidency, as well as ways to save the country from ruin and what listeners should be prepared for as we near November. To support the show and unlock exclusive content, become a patron at http://patreon.com/muckrakepodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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	Hey everybody, welcome to the Muckrake Podcast.
	I'm your co-host Jared Yates Sexton.
	Unfortunately, my co-host Nick Halseman is still enjoying a much-deserved, much-earned A little bit of rest and relaxation before we get to what is looking like a calamitous presidential election in November.
	But have no fear, he will be back next week.
	In fact, tonight, which is actually October 22nd, you'll be listening to this on October 23rd, tonight he's actually going to join me on some Patreon-exclusive coverage of the second presidential debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden.
	If you want some of this exclusive content, all you have to do is become a patron at patreon.com Slash muckrake podcast.
	I promise we make it worth it but we will be covering that next week when Nick makes his triumphant and and much-valued return to the muckrake podcast in his absence
	We have a very special guest today, the one, the only Sarah Kinzier, the author of Hiding in Plain Sight, and one of the few people in the world with a platform and everything to lose who has gone on the record calling Donald Trump the existential threat that he is.
	We're going to get to that conversation in a minute, and I think it was a really good conversation.
	Really well worth your time.
	Sarah has a lot to say, not just about the moment, but some advice on what to do moving forward.
	Ways that we can make this country better and pull back from this fascistic abyss, as well as advice on what we should be expecting on election night, or she calls it election season, which
	Just repeating that makes my skin crawl a little bit, but I know that it's absolutely true that we need to gird ourselves for a major moment, a catastrophe if you were, and hope like hell that we get something better and that we get an actual real election that reflects the will of the American people.
	But I just want to say first and foremost that Sarah Kinzier has done incredible work.
	If you haven't read her book, Hiding in Plain Sight, I think it's absolutely necessary reading to understand this moment, to understand Donald Trump, to understand the criminal enterprise that is the Trump administration and the Trump Corporation and all of the criminals in his orbit who use him, enable him, and work with him.
	Sarah is an incredible thinker and an important voice, and we could not be happier to have her join us for this episode of the Muckrake podcast.
	All right, everybody, we have a really special treat, one of my favorites in the absolute world.
	We are here with Sarah Kinzier, author of Hiding in Plain Sight, The Invention of Donald Trump and the Erosion of America, and co-host of the Gaslit Nation podcast.
	Sarah, how are you doing?
	Oh, as well as can be expected.
	How are you?
	I am.
	I'm hanging in there.
	I have to tell you that in all of my years following politics and maybe all of my years living on this earth, I don't think I've ever felt this bizarre and exhausted and anxious and angry and pretty much every other emotion underneath the sun.
	It's a lot.
	It's a pandemic.
	It's a crime spree.
	It's encroaching fascism.
	It's pathological lying.
	It's a lot to take in.
	It's got a little of everything going for it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So we're recording this on the evening of Wednesday, October 21st.
	And just a couple of hours ago, the FBI held a really bizarre press conference in which it pointed to, and by the way, since we're recording this for audio, people can't see me doing quote quotation marks with my fingers.
	Apparently, we've had voter information that has been violated by Iran.
	That has apparently been used to try and help Donald Trump through the idea of the Proud Boys.
	Maybe Rush is involved in there?
	I don't know.
	How bizarre and just absolute bullshit is this entire thing from your point of view?
	I mean, I'm still catching up.
	You know, I was eating dinner with my in-laws and trying to sort of sneak this information in.
	But I mean, one thing to sort of always watch out with watch out for with this administration is any mention of Iran, because there are a number of people in it who have been gunning for war with Iran from the very beginning.
	This ramped up more so under Bolton when he was there.
	I actually remember a similar presser, similar strange presser held by Rosenstein.
	I believe in 2018, people thought it was going to be about the molar probe, but it was another, you know, Iran is threatening our infrastructure.
	And it's like, sure, it's possible that Iran is, along with Russia, and honestly, a hell of a lot of countries.
	Because this administration invites them in.
	They don't need to do covert action.
	They can just give Trump some cash, give Kushner a loan, and they've got it in inroads.
	Yeah, I tend to see this much more in the realm of, you know, contrived quote-unquote October surprises.
	Also trying to, of course, put the legitimacy of the election in question so that Trump can have another avenue and Barr can have another avenue through which to contest it, which I think is the most likely outcome of the election.
	At the same time, however, you know, as I just said, our national security is an genuine danger.
	But the threat is not merely external.
	It's this collaboration between internal and external enemies.
	And one of the toughest parts, of course, is figuring out what the truth is, what the real nature of the threat is.
	When you have a government that works against its own people, that's the kind of difficult situation you run into.
	Absolutely.
	And it's, you know, this is what happens when you have a political party and a political body that cannot win elections anymore.
	They have to find some sort of avenue to maintain power.
	Meanwhile, four or five years ago, the door was thrown wide open to allow any foreign influence that wanted to come in and help Donald Trump.
	You know, it's not enough to try and win elections in America.
	And I don't know about you, but I've actually I've been very disturbed by how little the President of the United States of America is apparently interested in trying to win votes in a re-election campaign.
	And the entire re-election campaign has been focused on undermining democracy itself, while also inviting in malevolent actors.
	It seems like a new evolution that, unfortunately, was pretty predictable.
	Oh, absolutely.
	He's never tried to win it.
	He's tried to steal it.
	On one hand, that's a tactical move.
	He doesn't enter contests that are not prematurely rigged.
	I mean, that's been the story of his life.
	He advertises himself, Trump does, as this great risk taker.
	But when you look at the reality of the situation, this is someone who never left his hometown, who inherited his family business, and by which I mean both the front business and the mafia business that his father was wrapped up in.
	He's had him, you know, he's surrounded himself by dirty lawyers who protect him, who handle the difficult details, whether Roy Cohn or Michael Cohen or Bill Barr, as well as people who can maneuver through bureaucratic spaces, you know, like Mitch McConnell or when as well as people who can maneuver through bureaucratic spaces, you know, like Mitch McConnell or when he was working You know, Trump is someone who's produced.
	Trump has to live in a scripted reality.
	He can't have anything be unpredictable.
	And so, of course, he's going to lean toward a stolen election for a number of reasons.
	And the GOP is going to want a stolen election because they can't win an election.
	That's why they've been trying to suppress the vote for decades.
	That's why we had a partial repeal of the VRA in 2013, followed immediately by the shutdown of polling stations.
	That's why they make all this so difficult.
	They collaborate with hostile foreign bodies to ensure one party rule.
	And so none of this is surprising.
	The thing that's different this time is that the veneer of patriotism, rule of law, constitutionality, all these sorts of buzzwords and things that they would use to try to hide what was actually cheating and malicious action is gone. all these sorts of buzzwords and things that they would You know, they're showing themselves for what they are.
	And I think they can't help but do that with Donald Trump.
	But it really is striking how he never tried to expand his base.
	I don't even think he has a platform.
	You're not even putting forth the pretense of that.
	And what's interesting to me is that the media doesn't really remark upon this.
	They fall right into the traps.
	They're falling right into Hunter Biden's laptop and all of this nonsense.
	instead of saying like on an existential level, you know, what does it mean for this country that we have a criminal president who has no interest at all in serving the American public, is in fact greatly interested in hurting the American public for profit.
	And he's backed by an entire political party, by organized crime and by hostile states for this endeavor.
	Like what does that mean for our day-to-day lives as Americans?
	And I know there are some people concerned about this, you know, obviously you're one of them, but on the whole, I felt like a lot of these elite media organizations and officials either just don't understand what's going on or are pro what's going on or are so afraid of talking about it.
	You know, they're more afraid of being viewed as alarmist than sounding the alarm, even though we're less than two weeks away from an election that's going to decide our futures.
	And I have to tell you, one of the things that is most exhausting for me is this new bubbling up narrative.
	And somehow or another, these people are still able to manifest some sort of trust in the system and norms and constitutions and laws.
	And, and everybody now has reached this point where I, you know, I've been told by media members and pundits when the, you know, the red light is off, well, you know, he's just going to lose the election and it's going to be such an overwhelming loss that he'll just sort of slink into the shadows.
	And, and I understand the idea that maybe it might turn into a sour grapes type situation, but I think it's incredibly naive to think that any of these people are going to allow their, their maintaining of power and grip on power.
	To rely on a democratic outcome.
	That just seems not just naive, but criminally naive at this point.
	Oh, absolutely.
	They need to stay in power.
	It's not just a want, it's a need.
	Because in order to avoid prosecution, they need to retain power over the rule of law.
	They need to control law itself.
	And they're also running a kleptocratic operation That relies on control of the executive branch as well as other institutions that are related to that.
	That money train is going to stop all of these arrangements that Trump has with other countries, in particular Russia and the sanctions arrangements, arrangements with oligarchs, but also we're learning more about China.
	And of course, Saudi Arabia, Israel, the list goes on and on.
	They will all be interrupted.
	That's going to affect an enormous number of very wealthy, very corrupt people and all of their money.
	They're not gonna just give that up.
	Trump isn't going to give it up.
	Kushner isn't going to give it up.
	Putin isn't going to give it up.
	They're not gonna walk away quietly.
	They're going to contest it.
	And the other thing with Trump is he refuses to lose.
	The only time in his life he really lost was in the early 90s.
	And it's interesting to look at interviews from that period because he almost seems human.
	He almost seems humbled by the situation.
	But he was quickly rescued by the Russian mafia, who pumped some money His way, and I think at this point, being at this level on the world stage, his ego can't handle it, and also his wallet and his fate in a court of law cannot handle it.
	So unless they have something very sneaky at play, which is also not going to be good, I don't think he's gonna go away quietly.
	He will either contest the election or they have something very bad planned.
	And, you know, people will be like, oh, you know, you think he's some sort of geopolitical mastermind.
	Like, I don't at all.
	But he is surrounded by the best in the business, you know, the best at organized crime, the best at extremely illicit, evil, bureaucratic maneuvers within the Republican Party.
	You know, people like Mitch McConnell or people like, you know, the Koch brothers or others who've been plotting this kind of libertarian style hijacking of American government for a long time.
	He has a lot of advisors who have a lot on the line right now.
	And so I think there's no way in hell they're gonna go quietly.
	No, I completely agree.
	And I feel like there's this idea that there's still some sort of good faith at the heart of all of this.
	And that the Republicans are starting to understand that maybe their fate isn't tied to Donald Trump.
	And maybe they'll have some sort of Aaron Sorkin like moment of you know called a conscious or something but the truth is this project that has been underway for decades and Not only have there been billions spent towards this, there have been billions upon billions of dollars spent on this.
	There's been a massive wave of corruption that has perverted this system of power.
	And they see the finish line up ahead.
	The judiciary was one part of the project in order to make a backstop in case democracy ever won out or the American people ever won out.
	You know, laws to reform this or to have some sort of progress would be completely, you know, dead upon arrival.
	But there's no way that they're simply going to let votes get in the way.
	This isn't something that they just put all of their chips in on an election.
	There are so many different forms and functions of control that they have in place that the idea that it might just simply slip through their fingers is just absolute madness.
	Yeah, I don't think that people fully grasp the history here, and now I'm just gonna hide both of our books.
	But I think, honestly, if you read mine, if you read Hiding in Plain Sight, which starts in the late 70s and focuses heavily on the organized crime aspects, the takeover, the media, and Trump's rise, and also the downfall of the economy, and read yours, you could actually pick up in your book at around the same point About what happened to the Republican Party, about the kind of apocalyptic fervor, about militias and cult mentality, and all of these different things.
	And of course about the money.
	The money trail is in both our books.
	It's like interlocking, intertwining at times money trails.
	But that's the thing, is when people make a financial investment This vast into maintaining a particular type of system of governance.
	In this case, a one party state, a mafia state, an American autocracy with major theocratic elements.
	Of course, they're not gonna just let that go.
	They're not gonna shrug their shoulders and be like, Biden won, well, good try guys, good 40 year run.
	Help yourself to some appetizers.
	And this stuff that Biden, I mean, I'm hoping it's just kind of idle campaign rhetoric.
	He's like, I'm gonna put some Republicans in there.
	It's like, that's not going to solve any of this.
	This isn't about balancing the system, having some sort of team of rivals fantasy.
	None of that is happening.
	These are criminals.
	These are people who've been pumping dark money through our election system who Are implicated in a criminal plot.
	I think some of them didn't want to be.
	I think that's why we saw so many resignations from Republicans in Trump's first year.
	But the ones who are there now, they're sucked into this.
	And it's very hard to just kind of get out and move along.
	And the other thing is, is if by some miracle Biden does take the presidency, they're going to start chipping away at that immediately.
	They're going to start manipulating it.
	They're going to take away the power he has and they're going to use the power of the Supreme Court and all the other courts that they've been packing to do that.
	So the broader situation is still fairly dire.
	Obviously, I greatly prefer a Biden win.
	You know, that helps dismantle this particular kleptocracy that's the nexus of a lot of the problems that we have with the Trump administration.
	And it brings people in who could hopefully at least start going down the road of accountability.
	So it does really matter, and people should vote.
	But we're gonna be stuck in this situation for a long time, in part because we have been in this situation already for our entire lives.
	It's just people Would not identify it for the dire state of affairs that it is.
	For any multitude of reasons or motivations, for sure.
	And I've been telling people on this podcast and when I've been doing these talks that I think November, people unfortunately are looking at this as if it's like the final battle with the big boss.
	You beat Donald Trump and suddenly America is great again.
	And I think that is so untrue that it's actually dangerous.
	I think the most dangerous thing possible is that Donald Trump doesn't observe the election and then manages to hold on to power through either litigation or something approaching a soft coup.
	But then there's another level where Joe Biden becomes president and everyone thinks that America is back together and totally fine and this plot has been thwarted and we just move forward and sort of don't, you know, take our eye off the ball again.
	I would ask you, what do you think actually fighting back against this and making an actual difference in the long term?
	What do you think that looks like?
	What do you think a mature, honest assessment and fight against what has happened?
	What do you think that would even look like in a world in which people took this seriously and were willing to go to the mats on this stuff?
	I mean, it's going to have to start with the full truth, and that includes the truth of institutional failure.
	And I think a lot of the refusal to take on Trump is shame and humiliation, and often, at points, complicity within our institutions for failing to combat this in the first place.
	Allowing a Kremlin asset to assume the presidency, allowing You know, mafia money and dark money to infiltrate our institutions, not being a bulwark against autocracy, failing to uphold basic democratic precepts.
	It's humiliating for everyone, for law enforcement, the FBI, the CIA, the Obama administration, the Bush administration.
	I mean, there's so many people to blame.
	And they all need to be called out.
	All of those mistakes need to be examined.
	It means unraveling all these previous crises that everyone wanted to gloss over, like the 2008 financial collapse and its aftermath, 9-11 and the illegal wars that followed, the Iran-Contra affair, the aftermath of Watergate and Nixon's pardon.
	All of these refusals to really hold people accountable, and overwhelmingly these people have been Republicans.
	These were Republican administrations, although I think Democrats are guilty at best of negligence in these situations as well.
	They're going to have to reevaluate all of that.
	Bring it all to light, and then you have to start actually prosecuting people.
	You need real investigations, not these kind of bullshit ones that always seem to be headed by Mueller, whether the 9-11 Commission or the Mueller probe.
	Some undersecretary from Nixon.
	I mean, at this point, they're starting to finally age out because it really is this celebrity apprentice of federal felons and cover-up artists like Bill Barr, Robert Mueller, Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, John Bolton.
	They all just keep reappearing in administration after administration to do the same corrupt actions.
	They need to clean house, they need to bring forth real accountability, and they need to stop being so afraid of that.
	There's a culture in DC, I guess the one thing Trump got right is drain the swamp.
	Of course, he is the swamp, and he made the swamp bigger, and he turned the swamp into a moat, and he put it around his family.
	But nonetheless, I mean, that's the correct approach.
	And I feel like, you know, Elizabeth Warren had good ideas about that, I think, in terms of just understanding the role of the economy and the emotional hardship it's caused.
	I think Bernie Sanders has been very eloquent about that.
	So there are people in government who do understand this.
	They just need the fortitude They need resoluteness of spirit, and they need to understand this as an obligation to the American public.
	It's not about revenge on the Republicans.
	It's not about evening the score.
	It's about making a fair and just world in which ordinary people can have opportunities, and in which our politics is not dominated by criminal elements, by big money and dark money, and all of these things that are so far removed from ordinary citizens' input or control, and that nonetheless shape our lives.
	This is particularly important, I think, when you have these broader crises hovering above it, namely climate change and the coronavirus.
	I think that those things force people to maybe be more direct, more vigilant, more aggressive in handling corruption, Cuz if you don't handle corruption, those crises, which really are existential threats, will go completely out of control.
	And we've had a demonstration of that since March with coronavirus and the massive preventable death toll that has occurred.
	And that's just going on unabated.
	And I do think, by the way, that that does, you know, I don't want to say this bodes well for Biden, but I think it brought home for a lot of people the necessity of a functional federal government and the knowledge that Trump is simply going to never do that.
	He's going to continue to let people die.
	I think, you know, people want Biden just for that reason alone, that they're terrified by this pandemic, you know, and rightly so.
	Yeah, I think there was the moment with the pandemic, especially that it really brought home the fact that in its present state, America is failing.
	You know, I think there's that that moment of it was like in the Soviet Union, the moment of hyper normalization, where suddenly people realized they were like, oh, this ship is in really, really bad shape.
	And maybe we've been part of an illusion for a very long time.
	I try and tell people, and this is not to be hyperbolic or frighten people, but I think the first term of Trump's presidency, and hopefully the only term, but the first term if we are to see a second term or a third term or whatever the hell he has in store, I think what we've seen as horrific as it has been is only a preview of how bad it can be.
	Because as you were saying, these horrors, everything from forced hysterectomies in my state of Georgia, to the murderous handling or mishandling of the coronavirus situation, how we've had all of these crises that have popped up and have completely been mishandled, blatant corruption, obvious lies, the distortion of reality, misinformation, foreign interference, and by the way, that's only like a fifth of the things that he's done, not even to get started, that it will not only be that,
	But it will be that multiplied several times over, but even more blatant and unrepentant and cruel.
	Is that how you see it?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	I mean, I think if he has a second term, I see a few possibilities.
	I mean, one is just full fascism, in which things like the conversation we're having right now become impossible, in which there's greater restrictions on speech and media.
	Great restrictions on freedom of assembly.
	They're already moving in that direction.
	They want to use military force.
	I think we'll also see some variation on the kind of surveillance technology authoritarianism practiced in China, social credit systems, monitoring.
	We already have a bit of that.
	I think it'll go that way.
	They will feel unencumbered.
	They will feel like they have everything locked down And the sort of experiments that they're doing on other human beings, the way that they're treating migrants in the border, what they've done to those children, I think that that may expand.
	It makes me very fearful because they truly don't care if Americans live or die, or to the extent that they care, they're pro-death.
	They have a hierarchy.
	You know, of human beings in their mind with certain races and certain ethnicities above others.
	They are white supremacists, most fearful for people who are black or Latino or immigrants or any of the groups that the Trump administration has targeted for the last four years.
	You know, that will be who is hit hardest and who is hit first, but it's going to be bad for everyone.
	Yeah.
	Another thing I fear is that as a result of this, as a move to full fascism, we're going to see a heightened version of the kind of feuds between the federal government and state governments that we've seen all year.
	And we'll see a movement towards secession movements.
	And that is a goal of Russia.
	That is what Putin has wanted for a very long time, is basically revenge for the breakup of the Soviet Union, which for him was this great trauma.
	And I think we're going to see things that may look appealing to people in those states at first glance, like California may say, well, we've had enough.
	We're going to secede.
	We're a giant economy.
	We can exist on our own.
	We're going to be our own country now.
	And it's going to be disastrous, cuz what will ultimately happen to them is another version of this fascism.
	Because those billionaires, those corrupt oligarchs and billionaires and plutocrats will get their fingers in there and it'll just keep splitting and splitting.
	I don't think people will have some sort of democratic paradise there.
	It's very important that our country stay together.
	That we, you know, not put faith in our Constitution, that we refuse to give up our rights, that we force people to actually act on the Constitution, and not in the Amy Conant Barrett way, but in a more modern and, you know, evolved way.
	And don't just surrender or settle for some sort of, you know, second best scenario that actually Pleases foreign despots, you know, we need to try to think clearly and not let that level of emotion cloud our judgment because the decisions we're going to make over the next couple of years, you know, what we decide to accept, what we decide to stand for, to stand against, you know, those are the decisions that our children and grandchildren are going to have to live with.
	Those are decisions that people all over the world are going to have to live with.
	Because if America falls, You know, whether we fragment or whether we go fully fascist, we take everyone with us.
	You know, no one is going to be unscathed by this.
	And I think the world is watching in horror, but they're watching closely.
	And I don't know what they're going to do either, because our fates are so tied, particularly in this kind of globalized society.
	I completely agree.
	And real fast, before I let you go, and I'm so grateful for your time, I just have one question.
	It's a practical question.
	I've noticed that a lot of people have wanted to talk about how to handle election day and election night.
	And I think a lot of people consider it the way that it's been portrayed, that it's some sort of pressure release and we've just been waiting for election day and we'll go and cast our vote and we'll see democracy play out.
	I've been warning people to treat it like an impending disaster.
	I live down in Georgia where of course you'll get a couple of days notice before a hurricane comes in and you need to fortify your things, you need to get your goods, you need to have a plan, an emergency plan, and a backup emergency plan.
	What do you think that a concerned American at this moment needs to be ready for on election night, and what steps do you think are necessary for an American who is concerned and understands the possibility that this could turn ugly?
	What do you think that we should be prepared for, and how do you think we should prepare for it?
	I mean, I think comparing it to a natural disaster is fair, and as a Missouri resident with a tornado-stocked basement that's just been expanding since the truck came into office, and I've looked at various crazies.
	Yeah, I don't want to terrify everyone, but it's good to kind of have extra supplies of things in case, you know, one thing I'm worried about is infrastructure attacks.
	You know, people are going to see this as a vulnerable time.
	And a lot of bad actors are going to try to exploit the chaos, exploit the vulnerability, so you just don't know what's going to happen.
	I also don't encourage people to think of it as election day, think of it as election season, because one, I don't think the winner will necessarily be decided that night, but also the contestation of the election is likely to last For weeks on end, even if it is a Biden landslide, reality doesn't mean a hell of a lot to these people, power does.
	And they're going to try to grab power and assert power.
	I would just say, buckle down, prepare for the worst, prepare for a very bad winter.
	This combined with coronavirus is just really terrible.
	But know that it can change.
	You just have to be very resolute, very persistent, kind of get your mind Ready.
	If none of this happens, if things, you know, turn out well and we're both wrong, then great!
	You know, then we got a lot of extra... I hope, like, hell we're wrong.
	I hope, like, hell we're wrong.
	It would be wonderful!
	Can you imagine?
	Oh, it'd be amazing!
	Like, it would be the greatest thing!
	Don't you get tired of people saying, like, things are terrible?
	And it's like, my God, no!
	No, it's misery.
	It's misery to know all this is coming and then consistently be right about it.
	It is pure hell.
	I can't even describe it.
	It's like Clyde Bruckman on The X-Files.
	I don't know if you watch that, but he could see only when people would die.
	He had no other psychic ability.
	He could only see impending death.
	That's how I felt for five years, and it sucks.
	But yeah, unfortunately, prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
	Take what comes.
	We'll see.
	And also just watch out for each other.
	Remember, there are always people more vulnerable than you, people worse off than you, so there's an opportunity to help people out.
	And with people facing evictions, people in line at food banks, There's a lot of need out there and that need is not going to go away at all during election season.
	And it's not going to be addressed well by our government.
	So if there's a way to help your neighbor, just try to be a good citizen, that's the right thing to do.
	And it also might give you some grounding during what's going to be a very chaotic time and really a test of our moral fiber as Americans.
	Well, Sarah, I just want to I would be remiss if I didn't say as we approach election season, as you've now called it, which just makes me so much more exhausted, but it's completely true.
	I would be remiss if I didn't say thank you for all the work that you have done.
	And I'm so hopeful.
	And I know that you are that.
	Maybe we might be reaching a turning point or the precipice of something better.
	And I'm just very grateful for the work that you have done.
	I know for myself and others I've talked to, it's been very grounding, inspiring, informative, and completely necessary.
	So thank you for joining us and thank you for all the hard work.
	Oh, thanks so much for having me.
	All right, everybody.
	That was the one and the only Sarah Kinzier.
	We are so grateful that she was able to make time and join the podcast.
	And I really enjoyed having that conversation.
	And hearing what she had to say, we're going to return again next week with Nick Halseman.
	I don't know about the rest of you, I've missed him terribly.
	I'm ready to jump into whatever nightmare this debate brings and undoubtedly the madness that is going to happen this weekend.
	As I discussed on the podcast on Tuesday, Trump is desperate And a desperate Trump is a dangerous Trump.
	And the things that he and Rudy Giuliani and Steve Bannon and God knows what other criminals in their orbit, what they're doing to try and steal this election.
	These next few days...
	Are going to be bizarre, and we've been living in bizarre times for a while now, but I have to tell you that now as we approach the finish line of this election, I can only imagine that they're going to get even stranger.
	I am so grateful for your support and your listenership and all of the people who chip in on this show over at patreon.com slash monk right podcast.
	I think that this community makes a difference.
	I know it makes me feel better.
	I know from hearing from other people that it makes them feel better.
	So again, a heartfelt thank you for everything that you do, for telling people about this podcast, for sharing it on your social media, for rating us, liking us, subscribing, all of that stuff.
	It makes a massive difference.
	And I have to tell you after four years in the Trump reality that we've been living in, it is exhausting and demoralizing and alienating and it makes you feel alone.
	But I have to tell you through this podcast and through your support, I feel less alone and other people feel less alone.
	So thank you on my behalf and on Nick's behalf.
	Can't wait to have him back next week.
	If you need to find Nick, you can find him over at Can You Hear Me?
	SMH.
	You can find me at J.Y.
	Sexton.

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