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June 5, 2020 - The Muckrake Political Podcast

55:38

The Fascists Are Scared... And They Should Be.

Donald Trump and Tom Cotton are calling protestors terrorists and pushing for soldiers in the streets, but co-hosts Jared Yates Sexton and Nick Hauselman see something hopeful in the chaos. The fascists are letting their masks slip, and it's obvious they're truly shaken. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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	I say this not only as Secretary of Defense, but also as a former soldier and a former member of the National Guard.
	The option to use active duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations.
	We are not in one of those situations now.
	He also called Trump a threat to the Constitution.
	Accusing the president of trying to divide America, Mattis said, quote, Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people, does not even pretend to try.
	Hey, everybody.
	Welcome to the MuckRick podcast.
	I'm your co-host Jared Gates Sexton.
	As always, I'm joined by my loyal friend and co-host Nick Halseman.
	You know, we deal with a lot of serious subjects on this show.
	We try really hard to bring some hope.
	I think we've got some today.
	It feels Like the protests have at least affected the national conversation.
	There's a lot of events to go over later on in the episode.
	We'll also be talking about online extremism and radicalism and the QAnon movement, which I know a lot of people like to make fun of, but we have Marc-Andre Argentino, an expert in online extremism and radicalization.
	Here to tell us why we need to pay attention to this stuff.
	But in the meantime, before we get to Hope, we talk about progress made.
	Unfortunately, everyone, we got to talk about Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton.
	Who published an op-ed, an indefensible op-ed, in the New York Times.
	The New York Times has now, I don't know, imploded Nick?
	Has pretty much set themselves on fire trying to argue that... Apparently nobody read this op-ed before it came out, for those who are not familiar with it.
	Cotton, who is a fascist, there's no other word for it, argued for getting troops in the street to put down a rebellion by the American people.
	And more or less said that we should have widespread killing in order to restore law and order.
	Yeah, so it's another Thursday, or whatever.
	But yeah, the New York Times is sort of roiled in wokeness, it seems like, as it's really hard to believe that all the upper-level management people didn't see a sitting U.S.
	Senator's op-ed that's going to be published.
	It's not like even a lower, sort of maybe a random person in the sphere who has a little influence.
	They might, oh yeah, well this publisher's op-ed.
	This is like a real person here.
	So either they're lying or it is as failing as Trump likes to call it for the New York Times.
	But I mean, let's not even ignore the point here, which is that he is advocating for sort of paramilitary, you know, Fascistic looking police force stomping down on the will of the people, which is exactly what we would report from other fascist countries in horror.
	And here we are, he's advocating for that here.
	Yeah, Tom Cotton was calling for blood in the streets is what he was calling for, and the New York Times, which is the paper of record or one of the papers of record for the United States of America, decided that this was a legitimate argument to put out into the world.
	Number one, it was a disgusting lapse in judgment, but number two, I think it showed us something.
	You know, the New York Times is supposed to be one of the.
	One of the arbiters of the national conversation, right?
	They're the gatekeeper of what America is talking about.
	And it exposed some things.
	First things first, it exposed the fact that, and we've talked about it all the time on this podcast, the idea that politics in America is not left and right, right?
	It's actually more center to, again, full-blown fascist.
	The New York Times, you know, thankfully highlighted it by spotlighting a fascist.
	As they have in the past.
	I mean, they gave Adolf Hitler more than enough copy and time.
	But it also showed that the New York Times, which is not concerned with every opinion, they talk like anybody can get an op-ed in there.
	And I'm somebody who's gotten two op-eds in the New York Times.
	And I was lucky to have that and lucky to have that platform.
	But this is a sitting US Senator and what they did by spotlighting this is they showed that the wealthy and powerful in the United States of America are in this.
	This is a little bit of your hope people.
	They're very nervous about what's going on in this country and they are having an internal argument.
	About whether or not they should go full-blown fascist in order to maintain their power and their wealth.
	That's what's happening and that's what this op-ed exposed.
	Okay, now the other thing that's going on behind the scenes here is that we've already are well familiar with people who want to use the op-ed as a way to apply for a job in the government, which when William Barr did it to weigh in on the Mueller report, he was then installed as the AG.
	This reeks of him wanting to be installed as the Secretary of Defense.
	considering the fact that Mark Esper then comes out today and basically throws the president under the bus and sort of said, I didn't know anything about what was going on, clearing the Lafayette Park to get him to walk over for a photo op in front of the church.
	- Which was a lie.
	And also, we can't forget that this person, and the Secretary of Defense should have nothing to do with all of this at all.
	If you're going to say that it's a danger, it should be the Homeland Security Secretary.
	But also, real fast, let's not forget that it's this worm, Mark Esper, who called out to dominate the battle space, or an American city.
	I just want to get that on the record because we don't want to let this guy get away with this.
	No.
	So, you know, so he went from, you know, probably Trump's, you know, favorite hard-on on that call to the governors to then now distancing himself, actually doing what he's supposed to sound like in the beginning.
	And that never goes over well with this president.
	So, and we, I think we've understood is in the past that in the last, you know, several months, Esper has been on his way out anyway.
	So this is what it reeks like to me.
	Now there's apparently a legal, there's something called a law or whatever.
	What are laws?
	What are days?
	What are laws?
	But there's something about like the thing we have these called laws that would supposedly prevent that from happening, that cotton could be installed as a secretary of defense.
	But you know what?
	It doesn't seem to matter to this administration anyway.
	So they would probably – I mean having him be acting secretary, who knows what because he's confirmed already as a senator.
	I don't even know how that would not work or work.
	But nonetheless, that's what it reeks of to me as well.
	Although it's interesting because if you're looking at the numbers, this is a sinking ship.
	Any appointment you get now ain't gonna last beyond, you know, January of 2021, in theory, unless they know something that we don't.
	Well, we had a development this evening before we started taping where Donald Trump shared a letter on Twitter from John Dowd, everyone's crazy uncle.
	Wait, how do you use the word ogre?
	And I think after Shrek, ogre is not the word it needs to mean anymore, is it?
	It's not going to get it done anymore.
	John Dowd, who...
	To say that the letter was racist and bigoted and nearsighted is to be kind, first of all.
	Second of all, Trump quoted him in this letter as saying that the protesters weren't real, which by the way, Nick, I mean, you know, it's George Soros paying everybody in America who dislikes Trump, which means the majority of America, the broad majority of America, is apparently on George Soros' payroll.
	He's waiting for my check.
	Which is as anti-semitic and disgusting as it gets, said that the protesters weren't real, they were not peaceful, and that they were terrorists.
	And for anybody who has actually paid attention to Donald Trump's political life, one of his favorite applause lines, and this is about Tom Cotton, this is Ted Cruz as well, that all terrorists should be killed, all of their families should be killed, Trump bringing up General Pershing multiple times talking about how terrorists should be lined up and shot in the back of the head without a trial.
	War crimes, murder, execution.
	Meanwhile, everybody knows this.
	Lately it's been a lot of talk about no quarter given from somebody like Tom Cotton who is auditioning for either Secretary of Defense so he can bomb every country in the world.
	I feel like we have to parse this a little bit because we all know, and that's what they're saying, they're saying that all of the protesters are terrorists.
	Just the dark ones, right?
	I'm sure it's just those are the ones who are the terrorists here.
	And it's also so petty because in the background of what this letter is responding to is what Jim Mattis said.
	Which is a, you know, coming from, you know, a general who was working in the cabinet with the president, and who has probably been accused of being a coward for not speaking up earlier when he resigned.
	For him to say what he said was actually pretty impressive, and some folks seem to think that that might, you know, stem the tide or turn the tide, whatever the word is, the phrase, and cause more Republicans to sort of at least Stop in their tracks for a minute before, you know, following Trump.
	So we've got a growing audience.
	So for people who are listening to this for like the first or second time, we just want everyone to know that we do not just give all these people a free pass for what they have done.
	Mattis should have spoken up loudly and earlier at multiple occasions and was instrumental in so many of the cruelties and crimes of the Trump administration.
	I'm glad he spoke up.
	And for anybody who hasn't read his statement, he said that Trump is a danger to the Constitution.
	And somebody like Mattis, for him to do this, he compared this to the Nazi regime, which is not something someone like him does lightly.
	We were talking about this earlier, there are all kinds of memos going around from the Joint Chiefs of Staff telling military members and service people to obey the Constitution.
	Obviously, a nod to the idea that Donald Trump might ask them to declare war on their fellow people.
	We have a lot of people right now who are discovering consciences that they needed to discover a long time ago, but you're welcome to them, right?
	This is a growing thing, and this is what I want to say, and this is unfortunate and true.
	Trump is scared.
	Like, he's terrified right now.
	It's not just hiding in a bunker and being exposed as a coward.
	He's growing more erratic by the day, which, I mean, saying that out loud is just terrifying, right?
	The idea that he is.
	But the jig is up on these people.
	The conversation in this country has changed.
	We're seeing people talk about Black Lives Matter and reforming law enforcement in this country.
	People I never would have expected and it's obvious that most of the country has seen the murder of George Floyd as something that's inexcusable and that there has to be reform and there has to be some sort of addressing of issues and it is obvious that Trump is on the losing side of this thing.
	And people like Tom Cotton are on the losing side of this thing.
	And the more that they're calling for death and destruction and blood in the streets, the more it's obvious that they're scared.
	And people need to understand that because these people were fascists before this moment.
	It just so happens that fascists, when they see their power slipping, the mask starts to slip.
	They grow desperate.
	And so this is a moment of danger, but it is a moment of hope.
	And people need to understand that.
	Yeah, I mean, it's revealing.
	And remember, it's not just because you can say, all right, he's afraid of losing the election, right?
	People lose the election.
	People are only one term president.
	It's not the end of the world.
	But again, what I can always come back to is that his primary motivation for getting reelected is to at least postpone him going to prison.
	And he knows this.
	And that's a huge reason why he feels he needs to get elected.
	I feel like without question.
	And, you know, give him four more years and then we're really going to be in trouble.
	He'll then, without having the fear of another election to run for after 2020, will then be able to completely put into place what he's been trying to do and overcome the obstacles he's had.
	By the way, you know, as these people are peeling off, they were asking for responses from senators about Manis' letter.
	And it was just cowardly response after cowardly.
	I have a lunch to get to all that bullshit.
	But Lisa Murkowski actually did acknowledge that what he said was the truth and that was things that were needed to be said.
	Did you happen to see Trump's tweet that happened 20 minutes ago?
	Yeah, he's going to be in Alaska two years from now going after her.
	Yeah, he's already trying to get her out as it is for her record.
	You know, I wish he would do that with Susan Collins, too, while he's at it, because it seems to me that a Democrat would be able to take that seat pretty easily.
	And so that's just more desperation of anything.
	Can we talk real quick for a second about the crowds, though?
	Because I do feel like I don't want to gloss over that, and I think that's sort of what's going on behind the scenes here.
	The whole thing about Antifa.
	You know, it's interesting to me because it's the only thing that they're going to reference when they're talking about terrorists, right?
	They're talking about the problems with these crowds in the protests and why they need paramilitary troopers coming in and dominating the space.
	And by the way, maybe the possibility that they're hiring mercenaries because these people will not reveal themselves.
	There are rumors flying that Eric Prince and Blackwater have been hired to declare war on the American people.
	Just want to float that for people to understand that that is something that people are right now very concerned about.
	But yes.
	Yes.
	And part of that whole deal is when you see these guys armed to the hilt and they look like they're in some sort of military service, they won't tell you where they're from.
	Like, there were reporters who were asking, and all they would say was, we're from the Department of Justice.
	And there are some notions that they're from the Department of Corrections, or from, you know, prisons.
	But, I don't know.
	It's as nebulous, and again, we can get into Barr in a minute, too, about what he represents in all of this.
	Antifa, what's interesting to me, what doesn't ring true during this whole course of the rioting and the looting was that they were going to blame Antifa on the looting because that's never really been their MO.
	Their MO is to dox, you know, white supremacists and out them wherever they might be.
	They're also there to harass people who are marching for white supremacy and all these horrible things that they feel like under their First Amendment rights they're allowed to do.
	So I've seen that.
	But I've never seen any notion of Antifa like looting stores and making this about like, you know, benefiting themselves monetarily.
	So this is all ringing a little very hollow to me when they're using them as a scapegoat.
	I want to make sure that people understand the historical context of that.
	Well, there's no such thing as Antifa, first of all.
	It is a philosophy and a state of mind.
	There are people who have identified themselves as being Antifa in loosely grouped organizations, but it's not actually anything.
	Besides anyone who criticizes Donald Trump, who he now has declared terrorist and, you know, has said that he's more than happy to kill them and execute them.
	You know, there's a possibility that anarchists are doing this.
	I'm sure that they are out there in the world, and I'm sure there are people out there committing crimes.
	And meanwhile, by the way, I'm glad that this got brought up.
	In our emergency message last week, we talked about white supremacists working behind the scenes to escalate this stuff.
	Nevada is prosecuting three white supremacists who were caught dead to rights doing this.
	Meanwhile, reports keep rolling in that there are teams of two to four of these people out there, you know, sowing chaos.
	Who has any idea what's going on?
	I want to throw this out there because I think this is important and this is something that is For lack of a better phrase, it's really pissing me off and it's really frustrating me.
	It's not just about marching out there peacefully, right?
	And in one hand, I think people talk about the idea that looting or destruction somehow or another disqualifies what people are doing.
	But I think that there's an alternate narrative going on here.
	And unfortunately, this is something that our news media has pushed.
	And by the way, let's just put it where it's at, and we talk about hard truths on this podcast.
	You know, CNN and MSNBC, sure, in their focus and the way they present news, you could say that they're center-left or left, whatever you want to say.
	But they're also corporate-owned news.
	Right.
	This is they favor sort of the economic order that we're in.
	They will occasionally give you liberal viewpoints.
	They are covering this thing as if the only focus is to make sure that George Floyd's killers are prosecuted.
	That's not what's happening.
	I was watching a little bit earlier and unfortunately they have stopped going into the crowds.
	I was talking about this on Twitter the other day.
	When it started, they were in the crowds constantly, talking to people, what's going on?
	And everybody said, we want wide systemic reform and change.
	I just watched it a little bit ago and they grabbed a guy and they were like, does it end if these people get prosecuted?
	He goes, no, this is about 400 years of white supremacy and racism.
	People want big giant systemic change.
	It's not just enough to go into your cable news studios and talk in front of b-roll footage of drone footage of the crowds and have the same stale old opinions.
	People aren't out there for just like one thing, right?
	They're not out there just for like punitive damages.
	Like this is about a big giant reckoning with America's issues and I think I think people are failing to understand that and grasp that and that's that's really unfortunate.
	Well, here is one of the things is that I can almost understand why they don't want to send their reporters out in the field anymore because we keep seeing reporters arrested and attacked.
	Hold on.
	Hold on.
	I'll do it.
	Okay.
	There's plenty of people.
	There's plenty of people like me that aren't welcome on cable news because we don't tow the same lines that these people do.
	I'll do it for free.
	Get me some, I'll take a camera out there, I'll do it myself, and I'll tell you what, I know another couple of dozen people who are more than willing to get out there and do it for free.
	That's the, I agree with what you're saying, that it is dangerous out there, but as somebody who's reported from riots and somebody who knows a bunch of other people who have reported from riots, people think it's important and it's historic and they should go out and do it.
	I understand what you're saying, like it is dangerous and maybe people should, Well, people shouldn't have to go out and take risks that they don't want, but there is an entire generation of people who believe in this stuff and are more than willing to get out there and put our skin on the line.
	You know, and I would at least be protesting right now if I wasn't just afraid of COVID-19.
	I really, that's my big issue right now with all these crowds and we don't know what's going to happen in the next couple weeks of what, you know, the testing is going to look like or, you know, cases, but... Let's go to Spike.
	The other thing, I mean it seems like there's no other way around it, because they're so tightly packed together and not a lot of masks and stuff.
	But the other thing that I've been seeing a lot of also, which would give anybody pause, which isn't necessarily, these protests are growing.
	And so we need to talk a little bit about what this is about because the Venn diagram is starting to overlap with a couple different other circles.
	There's no question that the Trump administration is another object of ire for a lot of people who are protesting, particularly because he is stoking this.
	When you have, there's an account of a guy named T. Gregg Oh, he changed his name.
	T. Gregg, credulous propagandist, Doucette.
	And he has literally created a thread of over 150 videos of just regular people getting roughed up by the police.
	And without instigating, without doing the things that Trump is sort of dog-whistling about.
	That is so concerning to me that the training of the police, I guess, clearly is mandating that they behave this way.
	It just needs to be completely torn down and retrained from the bottom up.
	Yeah, so this guy's account, and again, I'm glad you brought this up.
	It is Greg Doucette.
	It's G-R-E-G underscore D-O-U-C-E-T-T-E.
	And that account has been keeping incredible track.
	I mean, we're watching people getting beaten left and right.
	They're getting trampled by horses.
	The cops are like driving through crowds and opening their doors to hurt people.
	I mean, the actual truth on the ground is really ugly.
	And for us to and the unfortunate truth of all of this is that the way that the cable news and and sort of publications treat this is it's like a story, right?
	All of this stuff is like a narrative.
	It has a beginning and an end.
	And if you've ever watched CNN after a national tragedy, you know the narrative.
	Right?
	It's the day after the mass shooting.
	They come to town and everybody's shocked.
	We never thought it could happen here.
	You talk to a few people and then for a couple of days there's a vigil and then maybe the president, if he's not a giant piece of shit, comes to town and, you know, makes people feel better.
	And then there's like one more day and then they go on to the next shooting.
	This doesn't fit that.
	What is it?
	Day 8?
	Is that right?
	Oh yeah, it started last Friday or last Thursday, so yeah, it's at least a week.
	It's day 8, and today was the memorial service for George Floyd.
	And if you watched any of this, it's obvious that they're treating it like all these other narratives.
	And actually, in the research for my new book, I found that this coverage started with the Oklahoma City bombing.
	That's where they learned to cover national tragedies.
	This thing's not just a national tragedy, it's a national tragedy turning into a national movement.
	And not just national, we've talked about it.
	They're all over the world.
	People all over the world are showing solidarity for what is happening in America.
	There's all these incidents that are taking place on the street level constantly.
	People have been killed in this thing.
	There was a video of a guy who got his skull fractured and as his friends were trying to carry him off, they begged the police to stop and they shot them with rubber bullets.
	I mean it is an honest-to-god ongoing crisis and like you said the president is just stoking this thing and making it worse and it's not gonna go away because these people actually want real and enduring systemic change.
	So we can't treat this like it's like every other spectacle.
	It's just not.
	I know.
	Especially because, you know, in the face of this, we keep seeing more and more people coming out.
	That's actually what's encouraging to me.
	So what I have been saying since November was that the only thing that would make me feel even halfway okay about November and Trump losing would be a million-person march on the Mall to the White House in solidarity.
	And you know what?
	I think we're... They're trying for it.
	What's that?
	They're trying for it on Saturday.
	Oh they are?
	That's the word on the street is they're trying for a million person march in Washington.
	I should get in my car right now because that's what I'm talking about and that again this is again this is folding over into You know, and here's what's interesting.
	Trump is now, you know, trying to evoke Nixon with this Law and Order, all caps, tweets.
	And he's doing it on purpose.
	We know that someone, as I don't think he's got the mental capacity to handle history studying, but he understands.
	He lived through it.
	This isn't really what he represents as far as what we're coming to in November.
	He is much more like LBJ.
	Because LBJ was already in the office like him for four years, overseeing all this tumultuousness.
	And so he's trying to paint himself like Nixon, kind of sweeping in whatever, but it's under his watch as it is.
	So there's no question this has now morphed from, and certainly we need a national movement, an international movement to stop police brutality, and also just the inherent racism that exists in policing itself.
	I'll just say it again.
	This is clearly morphing into a political statement against the administration.
	And Trump is too stupid to understand that he is not helping this.
	He is just giving more and more people more reasons to go out there, continue to protest.
	And that actually is giving me a lot of hope because rather than dwindling numbers because of the fear of all these things, it's growing.
	It's really incredible.
	I'll just say it again.
	Fascists are scared.
	They really are.
	Like, this is the moment.
	And by the way, we've talked about it on this podcast already with these protests.
	It's sort of a perfect storm of things.
	It is a senseless, indefensible tragedy at a time of societal and political crisis.
	Right?
	All of it has come together to create a moment of moral clarity.
	I mean, and Donald Trump, because he recognizes that, can't help but be terrified.
	And all of these things that he's been doing, and by the way, all day he's been signaling to white identity evangelicals, the cult of the Shining City people, he's been doing this thing over and over and over again, and pushing this idea of killing protesters.
	I mean, that's the thing is like he's doing this to try and dissuade people from showing up.
	He wants to make people think that if they show up that they might be killed and it's a it's a gambit and God knows what happens if people don't listen to him.
	You know, and if they like if he gets humiliated and he gets completely shown up like he keeps getting shown up and humiliated, who knows what's going to happen.
	But again, and we try our best to talk about things in a serious manner, but also give you a little piece of something.
	They're scared, man.
	They know that this is bigger than them and they know that they are in trouble.
	And when fascists are in trouble, that's when they slip the mask and they show themselves as fascists.
	And that's what's happening right now, right here.
	They're showing themselves for who they are.
	And if people think that you're alarmist or you know, still don't want to believe it, look what they did at the border.
	They intentionally made the situation so horrible there as some way to dissuade people from coming to this country.
	And it's the same thing he's doing now with trying to dissuade people from protesting.
	It's not working.
	And he doesn't have the capacity to have self-reflection and pivot and figure out a different way to do this.
	I mean, scientifically they know that once you even do the show of force, With the paramilitary garb that these guys put on and that kind of intimidation never works.
	It doesn't work.
	It actually just provokes all of the things that they're trying to put down.
	And so that, if they were to understand that and let the cops, you know, the ones where they see the cops marching with these protesters are the ones, are the protests that really work, that really function properly.
	And especially because, you know, you keep seeing people saying, well, they were out past curfew, like as if they deserve it.
	And I still can't wrap my head around anybody that would argue that they deserve to get their shit kicked out of them for being out past curfew.
	Right?
	That is really what I don't understand.
	If you want to arrest them, they must have ways where you can train this so that they can approach them and do this in a way where they can either arrest them, or they kind of have to run and not get arrested, but not to get hit over the head repeatedly with batons and shot with rubber bullets and to horrible consequences.
	That is what I don't get, why peaceful protesting Or maybe they can be stripped of all their military hardware, be defunded so we can pay for education and roads and healthcare, and be turned into members of the community instead of oppressors in an occupying army.
	I mean, there are ways to do this thing.
	I just want to point out, I thought you said an interesting thing.
	The clothes that they wear, the things that they do, they all clad themselves in black.
	They wear the Punisher skull.
	They've got all the fascist iconography on their trucks and stuff like that.
	And this is this is an old tried and true trick of the Nazi regime of the Third Reich.
	You adorn yourself with death's head and you take on the personification of death and fear.
	Do you know why?
	Because you're a coward.
	Because you are a cowardly piece of shit.
	And here's the thing that we have not done enough of in this country and recognize that fascism is the last bastion of the cowardly and the weak.
	These people shake in their boots.
	And the only way that they can overcome their fear is to pretend like they're above fear and to dole out fear, right?
	You're either the killer or the killed, you know, and it's to go out there and wage war against the people.
	And the truth is you can't buy spying.
	You can't buy actual courage and human decency.
	And these people, they're pitiable worms.
	They are fascist.
	And that's the thing.
	We have to take the sting out of it.
	And every time that they go out there, they're beating women in the streets.
	They're shoving them over into curbs.
	They're trampling people with horses.
	They're cowards.
	And they need to be exposed as cowards, the same way that the President has been exposed as a coward.
	Because all of this lashing out and all this violence, it's just cowardom.
	That's all it is.
	Yeah, well thank God we got Lindsey Graham doing a Senate committee investigation on Obamagate now.
	And he's really mystified as to why he's getting criticized for doing it today and yesterday.
	Thank God we have him around.
	Yeah, you want to talk about cowards who want to pretend like they're bigger than they are.
	I mean, he followed John McCain, a warrior, around like he was a little chihuahua at his bulldog feet for years.
	I mean, they're all cowards.
	That's what the Republican Party is all about, and they've just been shown time and time again to project outward because they're insecure, and they hate themselves, and they're cowards.
	And they have things in their closet they don't want people to know, and it can be blackmail, basically, to fall in line.
	So on that note, we're going to transition to my conversation with Marc-Andre Argentino.
	We're going to talk about online extremism and radicalism.
	He has a message I think you should hear.
	I think it's a really interesting look at a subgroup in this country that unfortunately is being radicalized and is dangerous and we can't afford to laugh at him anymore.
	So here is Marc-Andre Argentino.
	Hey everybody, I have a real treat for you.
	We have a great guest lined up and I've been so excited to get a chance to sit down and talk to Marc-Andre Argentino.
	Argentino is a PhD candidate in the Individualized Program at Concordia University, Montreal.
	Thank you for having me.
	how extremist groups leverage technology to create propaganda, recruit members to ideological causes, inspire acts of violence and impact democratic institutions.
	He is an associate fellow with the Global Network on Extremism and Technology and an associate researcher at CEFIR.
	Marc Andre, thank you for being here.
	Marc Andre: Thank you for having me.
	It's great to be here with you.
	Marc Andre: Well, just the introduction should tell everybody what this is about.
	You You know, on the muckrake we are really Concerned about things that I think a lot of people unfortunately like to think are not important and sort of let slip through the cracks.
	I was wondering if you could give the listeners a little bit of an introduction.
	I certainly came across your research into a group that I think our listeners might be interested in.
	Can you talk a little bit about what you're focusing on, what you're working with?
	Yeah, so like you mentioned in the beginning, I'm very interested about the nexus of ideology, technology, and extremism.
	In that vein, I'm currently researching the conspiracy theory, which is rapidly morphing into an ideology called QAnon, and looking at how this decentralized community can pose threats to various institutions across the world, whether and looking at how this decentralized community can pose threats to various institutions across the world, whether it's national security, public health, or democratic institutions, and getting an idea of the threat they pose and hopefully educate
	Okay, so unfortunately I've spent a little too much time going down the QAnon rabbit hole to understand the phenomenon.
	And when you really look at it, I mean, you start talking about it and like, the first thing that happens is people start rolling their eyes because you're talking about You're talking about JFK Jr.
	faking his death.
	You're talking about time travel.
	You're talking about, you know, worldwide pedophile satanic ritual rings.
	And it sounds like madness because it's madness.
	But can you give the quickest summary of what QAnon is and maybe what it isn't?
	So I guess the quickest way to describe QAnon is A movement that probably started as a LARP or troll online and it morphed to conspiracy and it started on the typical introduction.
	This thing started on 4chan in October 2017 with some individual basically posting Hillary Clinton will be arrested between 7.45am and 8.30am EST on Monday, October 30th.
	That obviously didn't happen.
	And their central tenet of belief that they focus on is that the world is run by a cabal of You know, satanic child sacrificing elites and they control, you know, all the politicians, the media, Hollywood, you name it.
	And this would have continued to happen if it wasn't for the election of their Messiah, Donald Trump, who is basically aware of this cabal and is working with a group of military intelligence people to let the public know about their fight against the deep state and that they're here to take it away and save the world and bring on some, you know, golden age of living.
	That's that's the core belief.
	And it's important to know that this is what would be called A type of umbrella conspiracy theory where, you know, you name it, it's part of the movement.
	As long as you're not a flat-earther, they'll take in your conspiracy theories and bring you in and morph that to their belief system.
	So it's really far-reaching, all-encompassing, and I guess it is important to highlight that it does have a strong nexus, especially in the U.S., to, you know, evangelical and neo-charismatic movements.
	And I think that's a key element to keep in mind, especially in, you know, the current environments we're in.
	Well, so a couple things.
	One, it's like a digital, technological age, new world order, totally evolving, bizarre conspiracy theory.
	For people who aren't aware, 4chan, 8chan, now 8kun are just like digital Wild West boards where it's basically like diving into the ugly subconscious of a human.
	It's really bad.
	And all of a sudden one day one guy shows up, maybe one guy, we don't even know who this person is, pretending that they're a high-level military intelligence Trump insider, freedom fighter, correct?
	Correct.
	And it's important to highlight too that this is not the first individual that did this on 4chan.
	There is something called the Anon Jar where individuals would go to these messaging boards and claim to be someone with military intelligence.
	And even before 4chan, you know, on the bulletin boards of the early 2000s, there's a very famous, you know, Internet myth of John Titten, the time traveler who went on and it, you know, it went on for months.
	You can lose an afternoon on that guy.
	Yeah.
	So it's, it's, it's part of, you know, this very niche internet subculture that not many people are familiar with.
	So it's, it's good to keep in mind that this is not unique.
	It's something that's happened.
	It's build off existing cultures as well.
	Yeah, and so, you know, maybe people are wondering why we're having a conversation about this subculture.
	It's not just an online subculture now.
	It's something that, and I think this is something people struggle with, particularly when they look at things like Donald Trump or the New World Order thing or QAnon.
	They say, there's no way people believe this stuff.
	There's no way that people are actually invested in this.
	But I mean, this is, for some people, this has become a religion, correct?
	There is, and there's actually a QAnon church that was formed in February of this year, and I was attending it for, it's 14 weeks, 15 weeks actually, of their services, and we're seeing organized religion.
	It's not just evangelicals who believe in QAnon.
	There are plenty of those, but this is actually a church where QAnon myth narratives are included in neo-charismatic rituals, and that makes it something entirely different.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, no, I was just going to say, can you talk, because one of your specialties is online radicalization and extremism.
	Can you talk about how that is involved with QAnon and why it is, considering that this is a conspiracy theory that says that America has been betrayed, that satanic child abusers control the world, and that everyone is in danger unless a war is waged against them.
	What happens from that?
	What are the potential consequences of this sort of an ideology?
	The potential consequences are far-ranging.
	I don't want to just Fear monger in the sense that there is a spectrum to any type of Threat, right?
	I think it's important to maybe point out a bit that QAnon has shifted from just a conspiracy theory to something that is closer to an ideology.
	And part of that is because of the fact that a key thing that's portrayed in QAnon narratives is the battle between good and evil.
	And it's very, very well highlighted that there's elements of the Odyssey, which is kind of a religious element of explaining why good or bad things happen in our world.
	And when you're trying to look at that stark contrast, it does make very clear for some individuals that when the world is black and white, it does lead to elements of radicalization.
	Now, radicalization in and of itself is not a bad thing.
	You know, you could, extreme ideologies, the radicalized process can lead to social change, can have a positive impact.
	But also it's the step, it's one step away from radicalization to violence, which is where the concern is.
	And we've seen how You know, if Q is not providing answers to the individuals, the next step is how do I help Q achieve this apocalyptic reality that he's been promising for years?
	And we've seen a couple of cases of this over years, but even most recently was during the pandemic was the case of Jessica Prim, where she got into her car, drove from Illinois to New York in the hope of finding Joe Biden, probably dispatching him.
	And, you know, it was all built on the fact that 20 days before she'd gone to her car, she had watched a QAnon conspiracy documentary called Follow the Cabal and started digging into Pizzagate and the whole QAnon movement.
	And 20 days from that first contact with the propaganda, she ended up, you know, being arrested by the police.
	And that's the type of concern that I think is kind of a top of mind when it comes to the perspective of violent extremism.
	Just as an aside, so I first heard of Marc Andre's research in an interview and involved Cabal got mentioned and I actually that night I spent three hours watching it and oh no and I have to tell you I you know because that's one of the things not to make light of this thing right because I think there are elements of danger in this
	But I went into it expecting, well, you know, maybe it will be like conspiracy theory and paranoid, but I expected it to be, um, coherent?
	To a certain, to a more extent.
	Does that make sense?
	Because it is just, um, it's like throwing, it's literally like throwing darts at a dartboard and just making connections from that, which is, I think, symptomatic of what this movement is and how decentralized and how evolving it is, right?
	Yeah, and it's, it's something unique to, that I found in QAnon in the sense that prior to researching this movement, my research had focused on ISIS.
	And there's kind of a logic to You know, Islamic extremism or even like neo-Nazi or white supremacy.
	There is a kind of logical narrative and a mindset behind these individuals to what leads their belief system and why they would act.
	Whereas QAnon, it's very hard to understand the impetus for individuals to continue believing in this because, like you said, it's so far-right ranging.
	It's kind of like throwing spaghetti at a wall, right?
	And hoping something sticks.
	And I've had enough time that I could start understanding and getting used to this type of content, but they're using Like stuff like Fall Cabal to red pill people and start believing this content.
	And the QAnon Church for the first 10 weeks, they were using, you know, the 10 segments of this video to educate people into QAnon who were never familiar with it.
	We've seen Jessica Prim consume and it's one of the, you know, the red pilling videos, but when you sit there and watch it, it's just, what am I watching?
	It's nonsensical.
	And it's, and I don't know what is, what is that reflects of within our society or within individuals that are being red pilled by that.
	Yeah, I'm fascinated by the intersection there of the two things, because I think there's the beginnings of the ideology, the religion of it, right?
	Because so much of this has to do with evangelicalism and, you know, which has attracted plenty of conspiracy theory narratives that have been latched on.
	I mentioned it before on the podcast in my work that I grew up in white identity, apocalyptic evangelicalism, and it was like yesterday, we're taping this on Tuesday, June 2nd, so I'm kind of worried by the time this comes out, this will be more of oppression conversation than we even wanted it to be.
	But you know, I kind of grew up in that culture, and so like it was like last night when Donald Trump posed with a Bible, me and every other ex-evangelical I know saw that and knew immediately that this was a gesture towards apocalyptic Christianity, right?
	And so here's my question, because we've had, like you said, the woman who went to kill Joe Biden, We've had a person break into Comet Ping Pong Pizza in order to, I guess, liberate child sex slaves.
	And so what is it?
	What happens with the intersection of religion and conspiracy theory and things like an ISIS or a QAnon or something like that that gives it a definitive target in modern times?
	What is it there that is dangerous or at least combustible?
	I guess is the better way of putting it.
	What is the combustible nature there?
	The combustible nature, I think, is usually when you're looking at radicalization, it's an individual in an environment or an individual who is in a time of crisis.
	There's something that has to trigger an individual to want to act.
	Now, we're currently, we were just in a period with a pandemic.
	We're now in an environment where we have a pandemic and race riots.
	An economic crisis and political crisis.
	And you know, it's, let's be honest, this is not what anyone expected when the ball dropped on December 31st, going to January 1st, 2020.
	So we're in a period where there's so much uncertainty, so much fear, and we're seeking answers or we're seeking to act.
	And I think this is where these type of beliefs are dangerous.
	It's radical ideologies, are an impetus for action.
	And like I was saying at the beginning, it could be an impetus for good.
	We've seen it historically on both the left and both the right.
	Like, it's not single to anyone.
	There's always good for action.
	It's but then the threat for violence is always there.
	And I think we're getting to a point now where this ideology is pointing towards individuals toward acting for violence.
	You know, if it's, you know, we see Jessica Brim, she wanted to go save the children that were there.
	You know, who does not want to save children?
	But it's the framework where this is presented that's concerning.
	It's, you know, if these elected officials are part of the deep state, then they're not real elected officials.
	We could take them out.
	We want to tear down the government, tear down the establishment.
	In the crisis that we're in, those are scary subjects to broach, especially when powers that be or influences in the community have a very strong apocalyptic worldview in a population that is already primed for apocalyptic worldviews.
	And I think that's, you know, that's something we need to keep in mind that a large part of the population is primed to receive these type of messages because of a Christian upbringing.
	It's Christian culture.
	Adding that to fear and anxiety is just, you know, you're, you're just throwing fuel to an existing fire.
	And it's, it's who is, who is going to come over, like, who's going to be the bigger flame, what's going to catch fire, what's going to spread.
	And it doesn't take an entire community.
	It takes one individual or a few individuals within that community.
	Right, and I think it's really interesting because it's the dehumanization of it, right?
	Like, it's this thing where all of a sudden we have a president who's declaring anyone who opposes him a terrorist.
	And, you know, especially in like the age of terror, you kill a terrorist before they kill you, right?
	And what I've noticed in the QAnon thing, and this actually tracks with so many of the conspiracy theories I've seen with rising fascism and authoritarianism, it's always, there is a threat, we need to take care of it.
	And so democratic institutions Are infected and they can't be used, right?
	Because the QAnon narrative is that there is, there are tons of extra legal matters up in the air, right?
	Like, like Trump is a liberty, because they believe in Donald Trump, right?
	I mean, all of this is an ideology that supports him being almost infallible, right?
	He, maybe they even think he's Q, some of them, correct?
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	And he's, he's what, like when he's what they believe is Q plus.
	Q plus.
	He knows it's, It's not just the Q team, it's actually the President.
	And you're right, he's a messianic figure to these individuals.
	Which, as you've written and talked about yourself, there's other communities within the U.S.
	that see Donald Trump as a messianic figure as well.
	And that resonance should ring alarm bells to people.
	Yeah, and that's what I think too.
	Like you were saying, it's like people in crisis and people who don't know what is happening or what's going to happen next, they really want some sort of ideology that makes them feel everything will be fine, right?
	Like, all of these Q people, and they're sad.
	You know, that's the saddest thing about it.
	Like, when you look at, like, they're ostracized from their families, they're perpetually depressed that the great storm or the storm hasn't arrived yet, And they're waiting for some sort of larger thing than themselves to set things right, right?
	They want to believe that the world has order and that it's not just chaotic.
	No, and that's a key element to it.
	And ultimately, you're going to end up with a group of people that are frustrated.
	So we're in an environment where we can't necessarily discuss with these individuals In an internet space, if you know someone who's from QAnon, you could have these dialogues and question their belief and push the conversation.
	But you know, having anyone that'll doubt their belief is just going to be either part of the deep state or liberal trash or whatever.
	So you can't have construction conversation.
	How do you defuse You know, something, an element like this.
	And I think this is why I've been trying to, as a religion scholar and someone who comes from a field of research on extremism, it's really trying to frame this in a way that we could explain the threat they pose from either its public health or national security or democratic institutions.
	And I think considering them, And like at least some type of religious movements important which is why I was recently looking at are they are they probably something called a hyper real religion in the sense that you're taking these pop culture elements conspiracy theory elements with an ideological system because QAnon has a cosmology.
	They have a theology and they have an anthropology to explain how humans behave and grow and change and impact the world around them.
	And if you're providing all of that, you provide a clear worldview to action.
	Now, right now they're happy with being digital soldiers.
	You know, we just want to type on our keyboards and get our messages out.
	And we're going to win this because, you know, this is what the Trump team wants.
	They want to do an information war.
	That brings a lot of questions when it comes to democratic constitution and election year.
	But now we've had four years of frustration.
	There's no arrest.
	The deep state is still winning.
	Apparently, you know, every, every enemy is the vile, worst human being because of what they do to children and satanic rituals.
	The next concerning step is, you know, when you're especially seeing a rapprochement between QAnon and some far-right groups, is where is there going to be a coalescence of extremist groups and these prime digital soldiers to move offline?
	And I think it's important to highlight that there has already been at least one case of terrorism related to QAnon.
	There is a case, what's his name?
	It's Matthew Wright, the individual who drove his armoured vehicle to the dam, to Hoover Dam.
	That's a case of an individual who's being charged on terrorist offense based on this conspiracy belief.
	You know, we've had, we've seen an individual radicalized in 20 days.
	It shows that, yes, individuals were in crisis.
	Yes, they had different situations.
	I let them, but it's enough that this is an ideology that provides a framework for them to take their online belief to an offline action.
	And I think that's where the concern is.
	And the offline action is usually, is So I'll finish up with this.
	You know, you've dehumanized your enemy.
	You're not going to treat them with kindness.
	You're not going to take a political solution because they don't believe there is a political solution because the institution is corrupt.
	So what does that leave these individuals as an option other than, you know, an insurgent one to rise up and take it into their own hands?
	Then this is the thing is that they're primed for action.
	So I'll finish up with this.
	I think everything that you just said is backed up by fact.
	I think it's backed up by strenuous research.
	I certainly think, as a citizen of a supposed democratic nation, that this is something that we should be concerned about, that we should take seriously, that we should keep an eye on, that we should discuss.
	Why don't we?
	What is it about stuff like this that we laugh it off or pretend like it's not there?
	The same thing with like patriot movements, right?
	Or militias, or secessionists, or accelerationists.
	What is it about Western culture in particular, and America in particular, that keeps us from being able to look at this seriously, examine it, protect against it, and understand it?
	Honesty, I think, is For when it comes to QAnon specifically is no one realizes the what they are is that they're no longer this funny community you could laugh at everyone is very used to looking at the superficial movement and this is so absurd it makes no sense it's just weird people that believe this or they're just trying to make money but It's important to keep in mind that their conspiracy theories are being spoken at the highest levels of power.
	It doesn't mean those speaking them are from QAnon, but it means that the narratives that they have amplified and spread are reaching ears of those who are decision makers.
	And we've seen it in Italy, where a politician was promoting Bill Gates' anti-vaccine conspiracy theories.
	I've done my data work during the pandemic.
	QAnon has played a key role in amplifying the pandemic.
	It's not from them, but they were a major role in amplifying this.
	They've amplified a lot of anti-vaxx disinformation, a lot of conspiracy theories about individuals, and they're creating the groundwork that finds a resonance with those who already believe in them.
	And we've seen this not only in the US, it's been in Canada, it's in the UK, in Australia, in New Zealand, in Italy, and in Germany.
	Among a bunch of other countries where QAnon is present.
	A lot of people have been saying with the... I shared a recent dashboard I have on CrowdTangle for Facebook data.
	I wasn't aware there was QAnon in Brazil and Latin America.
	They have a large population.
	Those are also populations in crisis with a populist government.
	There is a confluence of populist politics, of key tensions, a shrinking middle ground for political discussions and a huge amount of polarization.
	But people are still taking these individuals, not as a threat they pose, but as these kooky, tinfoil hat wearing individuals that live in the basement.
	Where in reality, they have a huge impact and they find resonance with individuals in the halls of power.
	And that again, besides the national security threat individuals may pose, the threat to democratic institutions is something to keep in mind where we already have A huge erosion of trust in experts, whether it's academics or journalists or politicians or any other source.
	And that is something that is another form of violence that's happening to our institutions.
	It may not be something we'll see now.
	It's not as flashy as a murder or an explosion, but the long-term damage this causes is something else that I think people need to be aware of.
	And that's also a scary conversation to have for a lot of individuals.
	No, I mean, it's truly terrifying.
	And these things pop up whenever states are incapable of handling their problems.
	You've got to find some sort of ideology to handle the problem.
	All right, Marc-André, we're so glad to have you.
	Where can the people find you?
	Best place to find me is on Twitter.
	Marc-André Argentino.
	My username is atanglerfish, so 4NGL3RF1SH.
	Thank you so much for coming on, Marc-André.
	Thank you very much for having me.
	All right, everybody.
	It was Marc-Andre Argentino, an expert in online extremism and the QAnon movement.
	I hope you found that informative.
	I certainly did.
	It gave me a lot of stuff to think about in terms of what this country is dealing with and where we're going.
	In the meantime, thank you everybody for listening to another episode of the Milk Rake Podcast.
	If you're interested in more from us, you can find Nick at Can You Hear Me?
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