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May 8, 2020 - The Muckrake Political Podcast

52:22

Not All Corruption Is Illegal

As the economy continues to crater, the Trump Administration sees to it that criminal crony Michael Flynn is released despite his confessed crimes. Co-hosts Nick Hauselman and Jared Yates Sexton discuss the flagrant dismissal of the law, the consequences of economic depression on rising fascism, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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	It looks to me like Michael Flynn would be exonerated based on everything I see.
	I'm not the judge, but I have a different type of power.
	But I don't know that anybody would have to use that power.
	I think he's exonerated everything.
	I've never seen anything like it.
	The White House confirmed this evening that it has blocked Dr. Anthony Fauci from testifying at a congressional hearing next week.
	In a statement, the White House said that Fauci and other top officials are busy dealing with the pandemic.
	The House is a setup.
	The House is a bunch of Trump haters.
	They put every Trump hater on the committee, the same old stuff.
	They frankly want our Situation to be unsuccessful, which means death.
	Which means death.
	And our situation is going to be very successful.
	Hey everybody, welcome to the McCraig Podcast.
	I am your host Jerry H. Sexton.
	I'm here with my co-host Nick Halseman.
	Thank you for listening.
	Unfortunately, we are recording on what can only be described as a frustrating, enraging day as the Department of Justice has just announced that it will not be seeking a criminal indictment of disgraced Mike Flynn, who has admitted twice to lying to authorities.
	But of course, Fox News, Donald Trump and all of them have conspired to get him off of his charges.
	I am enraged.
	I am pissed off.
	How are you doing, Nick?
	How do you feel about this?
	Well, you know, this is actually streamlining the government process because we don't need pardons anymore.
	Oh, right.
	He doesn't need to pardon anybody because he's got a bar to do it.
	And I got to tell you, I would imagine every lawyer that's had to bust their ass in law school to learn all these, what are they called again?
	Laws?
	Oh, yeah.
	- Can you imagine?
	- To learn all these things we call laws.
	Now it's like it doesn't even matter.
	We don't need lawyers anymore in this country.
	- It doesn't matter at all.
	This is one of those things that, you know, we want to be known for being an honest podcast.
	You know, we're not out here shoveling conspiracy theories.
	We don't want to sell fear.
	We don't want to profit off of that.
	This is a really bad day for America.
	It is a really, really bad day.
	And I am so frustrated about it because like you said, I mean, this is just like with the impeachment.
	It's obvious.
	right here what they're doing and what they have done and it's obvious that they don't care about laws and laws don't matter.
	Norms are just gone and that's what they and that's what this whole thing is about is showing people that they can do this and showing people that they they're not afraid to do it no they're not afraid to break the law they're not afraid to get their cronies off and it's supposed to break our will and it's supposed to you know make us lose faith in the process and it's it's absolutely disgusting.
	Well this is the other reason why you have to pay attention to what Trump says because I don't know about 10 days ago he said it on camera that he was in the process of being exonerated and you know what that means now was that he was talking to Barr and they were simply gonna be like well yeah we'll take care of it you know don't worry we'll wait a little bit of the time so it looks like you know we're following proper procedure but what also got buried is that the lead prosecutor who had been on this case from the very beginning quit
	about I don't know maybe was it 10 minutes before they announced they were dropping the case and this is this is the exact same kind of thing as what happened with Stone when all the the prosecuting team just quit because of the way they were what Barr was doing to interfere and it's the same thing and I fear that that is now completely gonna be you know buried and we're not gonna even sort of pay attention to that person but It really is astounding from across the board.
	We have to believe that this is the nation of loss and it's harder and harder to believe that.
	You know, so the law, we talk about this on the podcast a lot, like the law is this thing that we've agreed upon.
	You know, and there's problems with it, obviously, and our judicial system is an absolute disaster, but the concept of laws in a society, they're the building block of society, right?
	They're made up constructs, and they only have power when they're enforced or when they continue to be carried out in an open and fair way.
	Every time that this happens, and you just brought up Stone, and it's not just Stone or Flynn, it's, you know, Trump with the Ukraine, it's Trump with the Mueller case in Russia, it just keeps happening.
	And every time that this happens, that idea of the founding building blocks of society.
	It's troubled, you know?
	And by troubled, I mean it loses power.
	It loses hold.
	It's not something immutable like gravity.
	It's something that if you don't believe in it and you don't enforce it, it goes away.
	And that's what these people are all about.
	They're all about not only breaking laws, but doing it in such an overt way that they rub your nose in it.
	And I don't know about you, I'm pissed off about it.
	And I'm so tired of this country being treated like this and living in a country where people can get away with this.
	It is just, it's infuriating, Nick.
	Well, you could hope you could say, oh, it's not going to, like, trickle down and affect anybody else's normal everyday life.
	And then you click on Twitter and you watch these videos of people at the beaches breaking the law.
	Or you read about people who are, like, having secret salon societies in their house and ultimately getting arrested for running their business out of their home with people and, you know, violating social distancing laws, which are laws.
	That's why she went to jail for a minute.
	This is something that's now permeated our society.
	Yeah, so right before we got on the air, I actually just watched a video.
	I'm from Indiana, right?
	So I have, you know, I have to keep track of what's going on back home.
	There was just a massive Reopen America protest in Indiana.
	And again, these things, let's just be clear, because every time we talk about it, we have to point out the fact that this is being funded by right-wing billionaires to make it seem as if there's like, you know, some sort of organic populist protest when there's not.
	The protesters are, like, going through the streets.
	They're screaming at cops.
	There have been reports that they threw things at cops.
	And one of the things that happens here, and this goes from Trump all the way down, and it isn't like any of this started with Trump, because we always have to say he is a symptom.
	He's not the problem, right?
	He is a weeping wound of the bigger, bigger disease.
	Like, with Trump and people like him, I mean, for decades we've seen this.
	We've seen white-collar criminals get away with one thing after another, right?
	Because the law is not about them.
	It's about protecting them and being used as a tool against other people, usually people of color or poor people.
	And in this case, Trumpism is all about, again, the malleability of law.
	It doesn't matter if Trump or one of his cronies commits crimes.
	It doesn't matter if the people out at the Reopened America quote-unquote protest are throwing bottles at cops, right?
	The cops are there to stop other people.
	The cops are there to, you know, be at their whim.
	It's to protect them and give them power.
	But that malleability of politics and law, it's what leads to fascism.
	That is one of the building blocks of fascism, that idea that these things can be for other people, but not for you.
	I'm glad that you brought up people of color because the other thing that screams white privilege is when you're talking about, you know, people throwing things at the cops and having these rallies.
	Oh.
	There is a very distinct pattern here with their appearance of which they are white.
	Wait, wait, wait, Nick.
	Are you saying that if people of color stormed a state capitol carrying AR-15s that it would have a different outcome than them just being allowed to walk the halls and intimidate legislatures?
	That's bizarre.
	I don't, I don't believe that.
	Don't forget you can watch this on YouTube and actually see our reactions to how we're discussing this because you would see me grabbing my forehead and wanting to just fall off my chair in anger because yes there is no question and we've just seen this now with a jogger who was you know jogging through a Georgia nearby his neighborhood and Georgia it's executed And these guys weren't even charged.
	They weren't even charged.
	And maybe they will if a grand jury decides to, but the prosecuting attorney is like punting it and not even wanting to bring charges.
	So this is the kind of thing where I'm white, you're white.
	It's not easy to sometimes put yourself in someone else's shoes necessarily, but there's no question that we know now that this is something that only these privileged white people would even ever feel the temerity to like confront cops like this.
	It's ridiculous.
	Yeah, but that's what white supremacy is.
	White supremacy is the idea that the laws don't matter and that society is there to serve you.
	I mean, that's what this has all been about.
	So to serve and protect on the cop car, they've got it flipped.
	Oh god, it's always been like that.
	And one of the terrible things about it, and I was sitting around with this all day because, you know, it's one of those things I realize constantly and I have to remind myself.
	Make America Great Again is not about actually going back to any point in time that has actually existed.
	It's a state of mind.
	It's a philosophy.
	It's the idea that you can be a white person who doesn't have to question their own privilege or make room for anybody else.
	That's what it's about.
	And it's, again, about the malleability of philosophy and laws and government and politics.
	Nothing that's going on right now has anything to do with actual governance.
	Because governance is supposed to be about how people come together and figure out a way to move forward.
	You know, an equal society and progress.
	That's not what this is about.
	It's about stealing.
	It's about grifting.
	It's about protecting the power that survives versus the power that other people might have.
	And that's one of the reasons, I mean, this pandemic is like that.
	I mean, it's so crazy.
	Again, the shooting you're talking about is in Georgia, right?
	Georgia is a perfect example of how this is working right now.
	The state government reopened everything, putting everyone in danger.
	I think people are now 40% more likely to get coronavirus.
	The numbers are going to come out in the next couple of days.
	The infections are up.
	It's going to kill people.
	But you know why they did it?
	Because the state government didn't want to take care of unemployment.
	They wanted to shift that on to the business owners.
	And that's what this idea is.
	It's just, as long as I get mine, I don't care if you get yours.
	And if you get yours, there's a chance you're taking it from me.
	And that malleability of thought is what leads to that.
	That's how Trump ends up working with Russia.
	That's how Flynn ends up working with Russia and Turkey.
	By the way, it's all of these groups that look at it as in, and it's a mindset, it's a philosophy, and that's why he was exonerated.
	Well, he wasn't exonerated, I'm sorry.
	He was let loose, is what he was.
	He was let loose in society.
	It's a group of people who decided we can break any law because laws don't matter as long as we get ours.
	And it's that malleability.
	And Flynn is a part of that and has always been a part of that.
	And it's just, it's a flagrant, it's a flagrant abuse of law and society and just basic human decency.
	It's disgusting.
	Well, you brought up the notion of deaths and what's going to happen there.
	I actually listened to Fox News for like 25 minutes straight the other day.
	Wait, can we go ahead and preview?
	We can talk about it at the end.
	Will you tell the good people, our loyal listeners, the beautiful people who spend their time with us, what you're going to do?
	Okay, so I plan on, after we record our next podcast on Monday night, I'm gonna spend the next every available minute that I'm awake only getting my news from Fox News and from, I guess, Breitbart.
	I'm not gonna do OANN or whatever the hell it's called.
	I can't do it, but I will do... I think it's a missed opportunity.
	Which, by the way, I don't know if you saw, Nick, OANN got a really nice investment from Donald Trump Jr.
	They did.
	Alright, maybe I'll flip it on a little bit too.
	That's all I'm going to get my news from is that area.
	So then when we reconvene to record the next pod on Thursday, maybe we'll even push it to Friday so I have an extra day, I don't know.
	You'll be able to, you know, we'll have to compare notes basically on what happened in the world and what my take on it will be.
	I'm very excited about that.
	Here's the thing.
	I'm worried about you.
	I want you to be okay.
	I might come back as some sort of Republican zombie.
	Because I care about you, Nick Houselman.
	I want you to be okay.
	I might come back as some sort of Republican zombie.
	I don't know.
	You're going to come back and you're going to try and sell me some sort of silver solution and to take all my money and invest in gold doubloons is what's going to happen.
	A light that will shine inside your body.
	But here's the thing.
	The fundamental flaw of their reasoning about this is, okay, a couple different things.
	One of them was that the reports had come out that they had the highest death toll yet.
	And I think it was maybe even Georgia on the day they were opening up like the beaches and whatnot.
	And so they wanted to own the libs by saying, ha ha, of course that's silly because we know the average death takes 23 to 30 days after you contract it before you die.
	So clearly these deaths aren't from opening the beaches.
	I swear to God they had a doctor say this as if The notion is maybe we shouldn't be opening the beaches on the day where we're having the highest death total.
	Like that, those two things can't become congruent at all.
	It's amazing to me.
	Now, the other thing that they don't understand is that you can asymptomatically transfer this or transmit this disease to other people.
	So, the same guy was out there complaining about schools needing to observe social distancing and six feet apart because, you know, most of the classrooms probably won't be able to handle it.
	There's not enough space for that.
	He's like, we know that these kids don't get it, really.
	They don't really get it.
	And so they don't need to be social distancing at all because that's not going to be a problem for them.
	Meanwhile, what's going to happen when they go back home?
	Or they go back and visit grandma?
	Or go to the store and cough?
	It's like, you know, and these are kids who aren't going to cough and cover their cough all the time perfectly and whatever.
	It's outrageous what they do.
	I don't even know what you want to say to that.
	Every time, so that's the other part of all this.
	It's like, so we can sit here and we can talk about Trump's corruption and grift and rot, right?
	Like, I mean, we can talk about that.
	And that's rough enough.
	I was sitting around this morning drinking my coffee, and to even understand what these people are actually doing and how they're carrying out, you have to get deep in the books.
	Because this is advanced-level Sudoku, people.
	This is a post-post-modern type of autocracy that these people have cooked up, and it is It is as transparent, but also complicated, right?
	So that's one thing.
	And it's really hard to get rid of autocracies and authoritarians.
	They're like bedbugs.
	But then all of a sudden it's like, I'm reminded of the fact that they have a billion dollar propaganda arm.
	You know, they just, I was looking at it a while ago, there was a screenshot, and it just, oh, I had to get up and walk around.
	And it was this screenshot, and what their thing right now is they're going after social distancing.
	And they're like, oh, everyone has been lied to about social distancing, and it doesn't really do anything.
	So like, not only do you have to go back out to work, right, and your schools and all that, but now they're like, no, get close to each other.
	You'll be fine.
	Don't worry about this.
	And also, if you don't have symptoms, you're not going to spread it around.
	It's almost like they're intentionally doing this, but whatever.
	And meanwhile, I'm like looking at this screenshot, and down at the bottom, it's like, what did China know, and when did they know it, and all this stuff, right?
	So then all of a sudden, you have to deal with an authoritarian, but then you also have to deal with this entire propaganda arm, which is one of the reasons I'm excited to hear What you come back with.
	I actually, funny enough, and we can talk about this more next week, I went through this period of my life where I watched Fox News all the time because I was obsessed with watching how they lied and spun things.
	This was the Glenn Beck era in, you know, 2010-ish.
	And I'm very fascinated to see what you come back with, but it's such a really substantial front, and it's really impenetrable, and it's unbelievably dangerous.
	That's all you can say.
	I think what I'm going to find is, depending on when I watch, It'll be indicative of what they do because I suspect that there will be moments during the day where there is some reasonable coverage and then you kind of just slowly get sucked out of it as you get deeper into the night and then when you hit Hannity and Ingram and That was Fox News.
	They met with him.
	I suppose.
	Oh, and then Tucker.
	You know, you get to that, then it's all hell breaks loose.
	But, you know, you might find a little bit of in there, you know, but it's frightening.
	I mean, listen, ABC News had a interview with him, a sit down interview in front of the Lincoln Memorial.
	And no, that was Fox News.
	They met with him.
	I don't know where Muir talked to him.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	You're right. - Yeah, Muir, they think In the factory, it sounded like you could hear all the buzzing.
	My fault.
	We talked about that anyway, but the ABC News thing, it was crazy because you know that he's going to lay out these lies that he likes to always tell, and they didn't call him on any of them.
	Well, that's what they do.
	I mean, that's the unfortunate truth.
	On one hand, CNN has its own problem with this and MSNBC has their problems with it.
	But it's like the mainstream like network networks have no clue how to deal with Trump because they want to seem as consistent quote-unquote and as down-the-middle as they possibly can and so as a result they gift him so much room and so much unnecessary respect.
	That interview to me was it did not what's the what's the phrase I'm looking for it did not it did not meet my standards.
	Didn't fulfill you?
	Yeah, it didn't fulfill me as a viewer.
	No, it did not.
	Yeah, I mean, we can't even hope for that.
	It's over.
	It's done.
	We're simply not going to get a hard-hitting interview.
	And part of it is, I get it, because they need access.
	And if they hit him too hard, then they will never get access again.
	But Nick, he flies in the big plane!
	He lives in the big house.
	When he speaks at a podium, he's got the seal on the front.
	How could you ask him hard questions?
	He's American, Nick.
	Oh, nasty.
	It's so enraging that they're just like, well, I mean, I guess if you win a presidential election or, you know, you don't necessarily win.
	You win because the Electoral College was a tool of the slave states, but that's another thing altogether.
	You know, I guess if you win an election, you deserve all the respect in the world, and you're not a moron, and you're not a bigot, and a criminal.
	So, but that's the thing.
	They're talking to the plane, you know?
	They're talking to the seal.
	That's the enraging part.
	I mean, I think the founding fathers must have figured that the way our elections work, there's a built-in, it's kind of like in baseball, right?
	If you show up a pitcher on one at bat, They're going to hit you in the next one and you're not going to do it anymore, right?
	Like that's sort of the built-in rules here.
	And I kind of feel like they must have felt the same way about like this would happen.
	You know, here's a guy who tried to compare a journalist, a professional journalist with Donna Reed or what that he would prefer Donna Reed who you know is the all-american 50s housewife let's connect let's get back to uh you know make America great again stuff uh you know barefoot and pregnant I suppose is what he was also going for it was ridiculous and nothing so so I just want to throw this out there because you know I'm I'm getting older and and the the quarantine has me feeling nostalgic.
	I grew up watching, like, the Donna Reed Show on, like, Nick at Night.
	Like, I was what my grandparents called an old soul, Nick.
	So, you know, we would watch that, we'd watch Father Knows Best, all those things.
	And even back when I was like seven years old or eight years old and, you know, olden times, 1988, even I back then in rural Indiana involved in the Evangelical White Identity Church, even I was like, man, This seems pretty problematic, right?
	And meanwhile, the President of the United States of America, and his brain is just stupid and terrible and just a soggy sponge at this point, and he goes into it and he's like, what can I say about women?
	And he's like, Donna Reed, because that's his ideal thing, right?
	It's like just this subservient housewife who will just, you know, do whatever and serve and all that stuff.
	And meanwhile, People sit there and and they they keep you know, they call him.
	Mr. President They don't get up and they don't walk out a couple of them will stand up to him But the fact that they won't call this what it is goes back to the Flynn thing.
	It goes back to this corruption They know that this is bullshit.
	They know it's dangerous they know that it's awful and in the and there are people out there who suspect that this is awful and it's dangerous and it's off the rails and But meanwhile, they turn on like an ABC News or something like it, and they see them being deferential, and they see them like, you know, tipping their cap to the president, and they're like, well, I guess everything's fine, or else the news would tell us it's not.
	It's not fine.
	Nothing is fine right now.
	Like, we're in a full-blown crisis, and that pretend respect and all that bullshit, it just adds to it.
	It just gives them power.
	That's all it does.
	Right.
	I also find it fascinating how they want to... I mean, we know the Republicans are constantly trying to figure out who can we disparage, like maybe a past president, that will get them so that we can get Trump out of the bottom, right?
	So Trump can't be last anymore, right?
	They do that with Obama all the time.
	But you know there's a new whispers and that's permeating through Twitter stuff is is like FDR is the new like person that they're trying to sort of smear a little bit now and It just fascinates me to no end and I just feel like it's all sort of to tilt it a little bit just so they can get somebody else underneath Trump and he won't be the worst president of all time.
	FDR?
	Are you serious?
	Is that what they're doing?
	I have not seen that.
	You know, they're gonna reference the Japanese internment, and there's no defending that.
	I get it.
	No, the Japanese internment was a crime against humanity.
	Yes.
	You know, and so, you know, that's a problem.
	I mean, listen, LBJ also falls into that category, too.
	They'll criticize because, well, listen, he wanted equal rights, but, you know, there's a whole things that he didn't.
	Well, he killed JFK, but we'll go into that later.
	But, You know, but there's this whole notion, and by the way, the New Deal also, and I think the New Deal's coming up a little bit now because we're in a depression, right?
	We're on the verge of a depression.
	We are, and before we get into that, we need to talk about that for a minute.
	I just gotta tell you, Nick, I watched JFK the other night.
	Oh.
	The Oliver Stone movie.
	I wish, one of these days, you and I need to set up a movie night, and we will just go deep on a couple things, but JFK, I felt very close to you at that moment.
	Wow.
	You should have texted me, man.
	It is a fever dream of conspiracy narrativing.
	It is amazing.
	It's a nice yarn, yeah.
	It is, but I will say this, so for those of you who haven't seen it, what's the unemployment number now?
	Is it 33 million new claims?
	I forgot to check recently, but it's a lot.
	I want to say today it was 33 million.
	And we're teetering on the edge of a Great Depression because the government has no interest in actually helping people.
	The Republican Party has no interest whatsoever in ever raising taxes or spending money on anything.
	And, you know, Trump wants to destroy governance as a help.
	And one of the things that we need to talk about... Do you have the number?
	33.5 million jobs and it's about 25%.
	Actually, that scares me.
	I didn't think it got past 20% that far, but it's 25%.
	Twenty-five percent.
	Thirty-three million.
	But here's the thing, they're convinced that they're going to come back next month.
	Oh yeah, they think everything will be fine even though the numbers are going to skyrocket.
	You know, going back to last podcast, we talked about it as a quote-unquote correction or an adjustment, right?
	That a lot of these people are looking forward to because they're ghouls.
	But one of the things that we need to talk about is how much this looks like the lead-up to the Great Depression with two Republican presidents who did nothing.
	Absolutely nothing.
	And they just made the situation worse.
	And they're like, oh, it'll work itself out.
	Let the market, you know, take care of itself.
	And, you know, they subjected Americans to unbelievable indignities and awfulness.
	I will say...
	Oh god, and you know for anyone who's like me I I've been told by the my relatives who grew up in the Great Depression like this will happen again and you need to be prepared for it, right?
	So like my whole life I've just been ready for it.
	And so I've been looking for it and the other day there was a thing I want to say it was Let's say it was milk.
	They were just throwing out milk left and right.
	Like there was like a surplus of milk and instead of giving it to food banks and giving it to people, they were throwing it out, which is what my grandmother always used to say about like Hoover, right?
	It was just like destroying food that they could give to people.
	And so you have these two Republican presidents who do nothing.
	And I wanted to talk a little bit today, if you'll indulge me, about FDR and the New Deal and one of the misnomers about what happened and something we need to keep in mind.
	Particularly, we talked the other day about these armed goons and white supremacist terrorists and all that.
	And everybody thinks that the New Deal was just this thing that, like, fixed the economy, right?
	It just happened and it was fine.
	That's not what happened, right?
	The New Deal mobilized unemployed and frustrated Americans and put them to work in infrastructure and, you know, all these things around the country.
	It gave Americans a purpose.
	Is what it did.
	And one of its main achievements was that it basically made people stop doubting what America was and what it did, and it gave them something to do.
	Well, here's my question, Nick.
	What do frustrated young men who do not have a direction, what happens with them?
	They get angry?
	They get angry.
	And what happens as many of them get angry?
	They treat people poorly.
	They treat people poorly.
	And one of the things about masculinity that ends up happening is that young angry men without purpose find other young angry men without purpose and they group.
	And one thing that we don't like to talk about, and this is one of the reasons why American history actually needs to be taught the right way, there was a massive fascistic movement in America prior to World War II.
	We don't like to talk about it.
	We like to focus on beating the Nazis in the war, all that stuff.
	We don't like to talk about the multiple fascistic groups, including Nazis, including the Silver Legion, including America First with Charles Lindbergh.
	If you don't know about this, go check out Plot Against America.
	But one of the things the New Deal did is it took a lot of those young men and it gave them something to do and an America to believe in.
	What happens in this country as we lose our public faith?
	I think it is a powder keg and I think it is a situation that could get out of control very quickly.
	I agree.
	I mean, I kind of want to get into what the solutions could be, but here's the thing.
	I am very sympathetic to the plight.
	Like, listen, I happen to be lucky that I chose a profession that doesn't prohibit me from working in a situation like this.
	I make YouTube videos.
	I self-quarantine every day of my life anyway.
	There's no different.
	But I am sympathetic to people who, you know, they feel that absolute pressure to have to go back to work because they might get kicked out of their homes, even though there might be a delay of eviction for right now, very short term.
	And, you know, there might be some notion of like a $1,200 check and then also maybe some relief with unemployment insurance.
	But I get it that like that is there is a pressure.
	I have to go back to work.
	But It's equally balanced with this notion that you have to stay home.
	So the solution, you know, Mark Cuban had come out and said, we could have an army of testers and tracers right now.
	That would solve a lot of this.
	I mean, you know, it's millions of jobs they would need in the short term, at the very least.
	And you can quickly train, at least for the tracing stuff, and get them up and running.
	It could be six months of work, at least, until everyone get back on their feet and give them something.
	But, you know, It's not going to happen.
	So I guess the question you're posing is, are we going to have riots in the streets?
	Are we going to have hate crimes?
	Are we going to have all these things?
	I think we're already starting to see it.
	We already have it.
	I mean, that's the unfortunate truth of it.
	And, you know, it's not a surprise that we have people in the streets with guns.
	It's not a surprise that we have paramilitary groups.
	That's what happens.
	And listen, part of the American myth and the way that we mess around with history tells us that Germany just one day all of a sudden became a fascistic country.
	Like, oh my god, suddenly everybody just believed in Adolf Hitler and that's how it worked.
	That's not how it worked.
	Depressions breed fascism.
	That's just what happens.
	Economic crises breed extremism.
	Because people get frustrated with, you know, what they think is happening, or what they know isn't happening, and then they search for other things.
	Right now, because Trump pretends to be a president, and because Muir and people like him treat him like a president, because it's not working, it makes it seem like government doesn't work.
	You know, when it's, in fact, it's a major systemic problem.
	People are going to be looking to extremist solutions.
	That's what happens.
	And people need to be aware of that.
	And they need to understand that it's not just the economic crisis.
	That's bad enough.
	But when you start looking at, and you know, I'm not going to talk about my job.
	I'm not going to talk about jobs of people I know.
	But I can tell you that every corporation and business that I'm aware of, and people I've talked to, They've already been subjected to austerity, Nick.
	They've already, for years, they've been juiced and juiced and juiced.
	And now, is it like, is anybody going to raise taxes?
	Because it's not going to happen, right?
	There's not going to be new revenue.
	There's not going to be a new investment.
	There's not going to be any of that.
	So, that tightening is just going to get worse.
	And what happens when you squeeze and you squeeze and you squeeze?
	Like, the pressure has to go somewhere.
	And so what we're watching now, we're watching a government that has no intention whatsoever to help people.
	They're just sacrificing lives left and right, and the economy's not going to get better.
	Where does it go?
	Jared, do you remember how the Great Depression ended?
	If I remember right, I think that we had to go to war to fight fascism.
	I think that this is the conversation that's going on in the White House and the Oval Office right now.
	They're like, hmm, well how did that one end and what can we do?
	Because I have no doubt that they're trying to think about, well, geez, can we find a war here that might, you know, drag us out of this thing?
	Yeah, can we talk about the fact that, and so here's the thing, I would believe that a hundred percent if Dick Cheney was in office.
	You know what I mean?
	If Dick Cheney was in office right now, I'd be like looking at a map figuring out what country would not exist within a couple weeks and what quagmire we would be in.
	They are interested in making it look like they want to go to war.
	You know what I mean?
	But the problem is, and what they're doing, and again, for anybody who doesn't believe this or trust it and they think that we're just fear-mongering, go and type in, just in your Google machine, just go type 57-page GOP strategy memo and spend an hour of your life reading it.
	They have decided to blame this all on China, and they are going to saber-rattle, and they are going to beat the war drums to win in November.
	That's all.
	They're not interested in actual war.
	But here's the question, though, Nick.
	What happens in situations when you saber-rattle and you beat the drums of war?
	What ends up happening with the people that you're saber-rattling towards?
	Eventually, at some point, it can boil over.
	Unintentionally.
	Yeah.
	And China's already shown a willingness to play this game.
	Like they're already blaming us.
	They're already ratcheting up tensions.
	So they might get a war that they don't want.
	God forbid you look like someone that lives in China as well and living in this country.
	Because that's another thing that's going to be a problem.
	Now, the other difference, though, by the way, is there was a draft.
	There was compulsory military service.
	And that changes a whole lot of things when you have to fight a war like that, and everybody is sort of forced to go.
	This is not what would happen.
	You know, the people that would get punished or not punished would be forced to go to war, and now it would be, again, more of the people who are completely already marginalized and already being taken advantage of by the government anyway.
	Yeah, but Nick, those people that you're talking about who would be thrown into the grist of war, those would be people that would go to college.
	Oh, that's right!
	There's not going to be an incentive to go to college because college has already been under attack for decades.
	And now in this situation, those people are going to be pushed away from taking on personal debt and they're going to be pushed into the military.
	And all of a sudden, if you have a bunch of people in the military, it kind of seems like maybe you should use the military.
	So, yeah.
	It adds up in a really unfortunate way.
	It's one of those... What's the old saying?
	It's like, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail?
	I mean, it's a situation where America only understands how to bomb its way out of problems.
	Right.
	Or how to wave a flag at a problem and make it go away.
	That isn't going to work here.
	That just isn't.
	And unfortunately, that's the only thing that America understands anymore is the ability to react to crisis through war or warmongering or jingoistic nationalism.
	And it doesn't work that way.
	We have to actually be smart about this thing and we just can't do it.
	Are you, by the way, are you concerned at all, being an academic, that this, the whole thing with the, you know, buying your kids into the Ivy League schools, that whole scandal, I kind of, at least for me, I always feel like it's lessened the value of what college is and what that value of that education is, when clearly it's, that has to be the tip of the iceberg.
	Whatever we heard is only probably a very small part of what's going on.
	And I wonder if it's gonna have that effect too, where people are gonna be like, what is that value of going to college at this point?
	Because people are just buying their way in anyway.
	Well, there's a lot that I'm worried about in academia.
	So I like to refer to myself, every now and then I'll call myself an academic, but I'm actually a person who just happens to work in academia.
	You know what I mean?
	It's a weird distinction, but it's true.
	I'm worried about academia because... Are you like Mr. Holland?
	Something along those lines.
	I've been concerned about academia for years and in part is because, for those who don't know it, in the 1950s it was used as a tool by the government in the war machine and then in 1960s it rebelled and ever since then we have just been subject to one attack after another.
	Which, by the way, it would almost help to have academics and scientists and experts during a pandemic, wouldn't it?
	Oh, let's get into that, can't we?
	Yeah, it would almost help to have a trust of science and education, which part of the problem, if you really want to get deep in the weeds, and this is something we should talk about at length at some point, the people that I know who are in academia understand what's going on, but they're not able to get it out to people because people have been made to hate academics.
	They've been made to think that we are like a coddled, you know, group of grifters who just lie.
	And you know, because their kids have to pay a bunch of money for college, it's going to us.
	It's not, right?
	Like, we have been under attack for years and years and years.
	And so have scientists for the exact same reasons.
	And, you know, it has taken a toll.
	And it's one of the reasons why this pandemic has been so bad.
	It's one of the reasons, I don't know if you saw this video, there's a guy who went to Publix today and was just screaming at everybody that the pandemic was a It was a conspiracy against him and against his rights.
	And, you know, there's all this misinformation out there that people would have a better grasp on if academics and experts and scientists were treated with some respect in this country.
	But what's going to happen with the academy is going to be catastrophic.
	And it's another one of those things.
	If you think America is going to have a future without some sort of educational system, which they've tried to dismantle ever since desegregation, you're dead wrong.
	This is what happens.
	It's people talking about drinking bleach and Lysol and killing themselves drinking hydroxychloroquine.
	Nice.
	Man, I haven't thought about that in a while.
	And it takes a toll, unfortunately.
	It takes a massive, massive toll.
	Um, you know, the, it would be nice if Congress could have a conversation with a scientist or two and discuss what's going on, how they're dealing with this.
	And, you know, even if it's behind closed doors, but as we've discovered now, the Trump administration is, I'm not even sure how they have the power, but they are telling them they cannot go and talk to Congress.
	Now, somehow they're going to actually go to the Senate because that apparently, because it's controlled by Republicans, is quote unquote fair.
	But that's the other problem here is that we have an administration that's waging an all-out assault on science and these people, too.
	And it makes you wonder, like, you know, how is Tony Fauci navigating this?
	And why isn't he, you know, speaking up more?
	Like, we're gonna get Dr. Bright's whistleblower testimony, and that's already, we've seen some of that.
	It's pretty explosive stuff.
	Fauci must have much worse.
	I can't imagine what Fauci would say.
	And then, you know, to add one indignity on the pile of a massive mountain of indignities.
	I'm sure you saw this today.
	The Trump administration got a report from the CDC on how to safely reopen the country.
	And they just tossed it.
	They just tossed it, and it's obvious that they have no intention whatsoever of making this safe or taking care of anyone.
	Any doctor who's come across them undoubtedly knows it, but they're also struck with a really terrible bargain, which is they know they need to be in the room, and if they criticize Trump or, you know, if they say something counter to what he wants, they're gone.
	The only reason Fauci is still there is because he's become a high-profile figure.
	You know, it's like one of those old, um, it's like a spy thriller.
	You know, it's like that moment where, like, a reporter or something gets told in, like, a garage, they're like, the only reason you're not dead is because you're too big of a profile, you know?
	Or it would raise eyebrows.
	The only reason he hasn't been fired is because he's become, like, a cult figure of mass media consumption.
	That's it.
	But, no, I would love to know what these people think because it's a mess.
	Well did you really did you love how they like float out floated out the possibility of dissolving the the coronavirus task force and and then just kind of like test the water and see and then when they realize a blowback in less than 12 hours Trump even even he acknowledges this that's the other funny thing about Trump is he'll he'll tell you what's going on inside his brain there's no carving going on and he says he calls it in the sense of being popular okay
	I just imagine it's like that scene in The Simpsons where it's Homer sitting there and it goes in his brain and it's a cartoon.
	And when you said that, I just thought of Trump's brain.
	It's just like that painting of dogs playing poker.
	That's all it is.
	But you're right.
	He tells you every single time.
	They thought about dismantling this thing.
	It got bad press and then they walked it back.
	Right, because he just thinks it's popular.
	There's no value scientifically to what they're doing.
	It's a popular thing that seems to reassure people.
	It's the insanity of it.
	But oftentimes he will say that.
	He'll go, oh, I'm not going to talk, but I can't say it.
	And they just wait and they wait.
	And within 10 seconds, he will say whatever he says he wasn't going to say.
	And usually it's horrible.
	The guy has, again, we said this before, has to be the worst negotiator of all time.
	And it's probably why his only cause of recourse is to just not pay his contractors at the end.
	And that's his way of negotiation, I think.
	Well, he's a total fraud.
	He's a fabrication.
	I mean, if you actually look at his history, he's never been successful at anything.
	The only thing that he's actually ever been even halfway successful at is creating the illusion of success.
	I'd say he was successful at being white.
	Yeah, I think that's true, him being born rich.
	And it's one of those situations where, like, he had so much money and he had such a public profile that eventually when he declared bankruptcy, his creditors were like, oh, we can make more money if he seems like he's rich, so continue playing your character, Donald.
	And so, when he's actually in a position of power, like, the failure is both intentional but also unintentional.
	They don't have any desire to help anybody.
	They're not interested in using the federal government, you know, to help anyone.
	He's there to destroy the federal government.
	That's it.
	And once you understand that, and you understand that he's a fraud, and you understand that he's engaged in perpetual fraud, it helps with this thing.
	We have to stop expecting him to help and fix things, because it's not going to happen.
	I don't know.
	I mean, destroy might not be the best word in the sense that maybe it's more like he is trying to just pick at the carcass, right?
	He's just trying to I think that's right.
	Right?
	Like, I don't know if he even cares about, you know, getting rid of Social Security.
	I just think he wants to, you know, charge the government as much as he can to use his Trump Tower offices for nothing, you know, and all those different things, and just bleed them dry.
	I think that's a component of it.
	I was thinking about this today.
	I was trying to work it out in my head.
	And by the way, one of the things about Twitter is it makes you try and figure everything out in like a 280 character limit.
	Which, you know, isn't always great.
	Threads.
	But it's like one of those things.
	Threads, yeah.
	I'm guilty.
	It's one of those things where it's like corporations have a person that they dispatch to sort of strip a company down to its nuts and bolts, right?
	It's like bankruptcy, vulture, you know, carry-on kind of stuff, right?
	And I think that's right.
	I think in part he's there to destroy and break down what's left of the federal government.
	Like, it's not... and another part of it is, like, an infection.
	So, like, you know, it's like every sci-fi movie ever made.
	There's, like, you boot up the computer and you plug it into the other computer and the infection goes in and it takes over, right?
	I mean, he's there to turn... and this is what we watch with Flynn, bringing it full circle.
	He is there to make it an open and blatant clearinghouse for corruption.
	That's all.
	You know what I mean?
	Eventually the United States... It's mob, but this is more like Goodfellas in my mind.
	Well, right, and this is the thing, and I try and express this all the time, but it's hard to express.
	You and I grew up thinking about nations, right?
	The United States of America, Russia, Turkey, all these countries.
	That doesn't exist anymore.
	Right?
	We're still talking about America and people like Trump and people above him are talking about global markets.
	They're talking about cogs and a bigger giant economic machine.
	The rest of us are like two or three steps behind.
	America doesn't really exist for these people.
	You and I, like, Like, I won't leave America because it's my country.
	Do you know what I mean?
	Like, people all the time are like, you should leave the country, and I'm like, you know I understand where you're coming from, but it's my country.
	He doesn't get to do this to my country.
	And then meanwhile, he's not interested in duty.
	He's not interested in patriotism, you know?
	It's just a big game in Trump International, and it doesn't matter if it's in America or Russia or wherever.
	I mean, it's just a completely different organism.
	It's a different animal.
	Yeah, if I can actually just follow through with the analogy a little bit, the one last little bit here is, in Goodfellas, if you don't remember, they do this Lufthansa heist, right, which has actually really happened, and Robert De Niro's character gets so upset when they all start buying nice things, right, they're walking into the bar, he's got the nice coat and nice whatever, and he makes them, you know, turn all back, because he's afraid of what?
	That they're going to get caught, right?
	They no longer have to have that fear.
	That's what's going on.
	So the different version of that scene now would be encouraging them to buy the nice cars and the nice furs and really just, you know, take advantage.
	We've now learned about how much the campaign is paying all these workers.
	Lara Trump And Gilfoyle and all these other hangers-on that aren't doing anything are making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
	And they compared that to the salaries of other campaigns over the last, you know, 10 years.
	And it's frightening because not even the highest paid person, the one person on any of those other campaigns, makes as much as any of these people do now.
	And it's the donors' money.
	That's the terrible thing about it.
	And by the way, I'm so glad you brought up the Goodfellas thing, because I actually, and I love how sometimes this podcast will go into the film theory thing.
	Let's take another Scorsese film, Wolf of Wall Street, right?
	And let's actually look at what Godfellas, Goodfellas is.
	When did Goodfellas take place, time period-wise?
	The 60s.
	It took place in the 1960s, right?
	So like then, you still had to worry about being busted for corruption and stuff.
	Eventually, you look at Wolf of Wall Street, and you have, um, I think his name is Jordan, is who DiCaprio plays.
	Yeah, Belfort.
	Belfort.
	When he is approached by law enforcement about his conspicuous consumption, right, because he's living large, he's living on a yacht or whatever, he doesn't, like, Go back.
	He shows them the money.
	He actually says this is the money and he just throws it around and he does it because he wants the people investigating him to feel like there's no way that they could possibly bust him.
	Right?
	It's meant to break the will.
	And the difference between that 1960s idea of goodfellas and the 1980s late or early 1990s Wolf of Wall Street thing is what happened.
	That's where that rift happened.
	And all of a sudden you just had a bunch of people in the 1980s and 1990s who would break laws and just be like, screw you, take me down.
	I'm breaking laws right now.
	I mean, that's one of the reasons why you saw organized crime bosses become public figures, right?
	They became local celebrities in that time period because of Reaganism and hyper-capitalism.
	That's what Trump is.
	Trump is an organized crime boss who is flagrantly... What is the... Oh man, I'm gonna do a thing.
	What is the Notorious B.I.G.
	line?
	It's tap to myself and the phone in the basement.
	Right?
	And it's this idea of like, no, not only am I going to do the crime, but I'm going to rub your face in it and I'm going to break your will and let you know you can't do anything about it.
	And that is like one of the major things that has changed in America.
	Well, and to keep this going, because this is a tour de force of, you know, referencing the movie.
	Of pop culture.
	I love Wolf of Wall Street.
	I've got to tell you.
	I mean, they're despicable, horrible people, but it's mesmerizing.
	And when they take the lewds and they don't kick in, they keep taking more.
	And then you see Leonardo DiCaprio try and get into his car.
	That is his Oscar moment.
	That's cinematic magic.
	But you know what it is?
	It's Trump.
	That is Trump's presidency right there.
	He's a wallowing, drooling, massive baby who's trying to fall down the stairs on purpose because he can't walk.
	But wait, where?
	At a country club, yes.
	He's at a country club.
	Shouldn't the people at the country club stop him from getting in the car?
	No.
	He's one of them.
	Wow, that's great.
	Now, let's get one step further really quickly because even though we're at the end of this, we didn't even talk about Bridgegate.
	And here's what happens.
	The Supreme Court unanimously throws out the Bridgegate case with Chris Christie and his cronies because guess what?
	There really isn't a federal law on the books that prevented them from You know, creating a huge traffic jam for days on end as retaliation politically.
	There isn't a law against that.
	I think the quote was, and this is as telling as anything else, I believe the quote from the decision was that not all corruption is illegal.
	And that, and by the way, I'm just going to throw this out there.
	I'm going to lobby for it.
	I think that's the title of the podcast.
	I'm just throwing that out there.
	Love it.
	Not all corruption is illegal.
	And that idea, if you want to look for something that encompasses the moment, it's that, right?
	It's the idea of malleable law and malleable society and politics.
	And it's about that.
	I'm not subject to it, but you are.
	That's it.
	That is it.
	And that's where we are.
	And that's the truth that hits you in the face at some point throughout everyone's lives.
	Either you're on the right end or the wrong end of that.
	And eventually you realize-- I mean, I think most people when they're young, they're coming out of college, they probably have these visions.
	I'm going to make a million dollars and be really successful.
	Not everybody does that.
	And there must be these moments in people's lives where it actually hits them.
	And it also hits them that it's not fair, right?
	That the whole system is stacked against very many people across the country.
	That's got to be a moment in a lot of people's lives that really is devastating.
	Yeah, and you know, I had a thing today.
	I had a breakthrough today.
	And one of the things with all of this is, and again, this is about the blatant breaking of law.
	They do it to break your will, right?
	This Flynn thing did not need to happen.
	They did it to show you.
	What is the old poem I sing of Olaf?
	Big and strong, there's some shit I will not eat.
	That is what people need to get to.
	And so I've come up with this refrain that I think is exactly what we need to look at.
	First of all, get angry.
	You should be angry.
	You know what I mean?
	Like, this is a moment that should make you angry.
	You've been sold out.
	Your loved ones have been sold out.
	Your future has been mortgaged.
	Second of all, once you're angry, use it as motivation to get educated.
	You have to learn what these people are doing because it's complicated and they hide behind ignorance.
	And third of all, you have to get organized.
	Find other people who are pissed off because they win when you are alone and you lose hope.
	And so, people need to get angry, they need to get educated, and they need to get organized.
	And we thank you for being here.
	I know sometimes it's a tough pill to swallow, but my God, we're just trying to do our best.
	This thing is so frustrating and I think I speak for my co-host Nick that if we didn't do this and if we didn't fight back, I think my spirit would be broken and I can't deal with that.
	I can't give this country over to these people.
	I agree.
	I feel like there is these moments where it's like a therapy in some way, but also if we can both talk about this and sort of boil it down and try and own it, we can feel that motivation to actually get active and try and do something to change it.
	And I think we have to do that, and we thank you for being a part of that.
	As always, please like, subscribe, share, comment.
	I know that those things seem trivial.
	I know I don't like to do them, you know, and I always sort of roll my eyes when podcast hosts say that to me, but being a podcast host, I can tell you, it helps.
	It actually really does help.
	And our audience is blowing up right now, and you guys have been so wonderful, and we appreciate you so much.
	So please, just like, subscribe, comment, all that good stuff.
	Tell people about this podcast.
	Until next time, Nick is at Can You Hear Me?
	SMH.
	I am at J.Y.
	Sexton.
	We will be back next week.

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