The Megyn Kelly Show - Nancy Guthrie Nest Camera Questions, Savannah Stalker Possibilities, and Bitcoin Rumblings, with FBI and Security Experts  |  Ep. 1250
Aired: 2026-02-11
Duration: 03:05:37


=== Ransom Demands and Alibis (15:22) ===

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[00:00:45]  Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show Live on Sirius XM Channel 111 Every weekday at New East.
[00:00:57]  Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly.
[00:00:59]  Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show.
[00:01:00]  What a crazy week in news it has been.
[00:01:02]  While we've been wall-to-wall Nancy Guthrie coverage, a suspected shooter identifying as trans killed nine and wounded 25 in Canada.
[00:01:11]  They're actually referring to this person as a what is it, a gun person.
[00:01:18]  They won't call him a gunman because he said he was trans.
[00:01:24]  This is they're insane.
[00:01:26]  And in another story this morning, the FAA briefly shut down the El Paso airport, allegedly after Mexican cartel drones supposedly breached U.S. airspace.
[00:01:37]  At least that's what we're being told, though many people have their doubts about what's actually happening there.
[00:01:44]  They're going to shut down a major U.S. airport and airspace for 10 days?
[00:01:48]  Like on a minute's notice?
[00:01:52]  That's alarming.
[00:01:54]  After huge outcry, it's now back open.
[00:01:57]  We're going to be monitoring that.
[00:01:58]  But for now, there is a ton of breaking news.
[00:02:01]  I mean, overnight it was insane.
[00:02:02]  I don't know about you.
[00:02:03]  I was up until about almost one following the news coverage.
[00:02:06]  And then we all set our alarms for AM update for 4 a.m. because we usually put that script to bed before we go to sleep, but we knew there'd be potential breaking news overnight.
[00:02:15]  So at 4, we hauled our butts out of bed for you guys.
[00:02:17]  You could hear the difference in my normal voice versus my 4 a.m. voice.
[00:02:21]  Though, in fairness to myself, I was trying not to wake up my family as we updated the script to let you know that the person of interest that they had pulled over or the quote subject that they'd been calling him had been released.
[00:02:33]  So there was a lot happening last night as they went down close to the Mexico border and got this guy, and then it turned out to be, we believe now, nothing.
[00:02:43]  They're saying that he has an alibi that we heard his alibi, and it didn't seem all that amazing.
[00:02:49]  Is it more likely that they just realized after talking to him they didn't have the right guy?
[00:02:53]  And are we really just like doing this to people based on the fact that they look a little like the guy?
[00:02:58]  Not sure what's happening there, but we're going to talk about it with our panel.
[00:03:01]  This is all in the search for Nancy Guthrie, an 84-year-old woman.
[00:03:06]  She's the mother of NBC host Savannah Guthrie, as you know by now, who may or may not still be alive.
[00:03:12]  You know, many of us presume that the worst may have happened by now, given her heart issues, given the fact that this was clearly a violent man who abducted her, and just given, you know, playing the odds of this person who doesn't really appear to have negotiated at all or at a minimum in good faith with the family.
[00:03:31]  If you believe those ransom notes are from him, but she could still be alive.
[00:03:36]  We don't know, in fact, what happened to Nancy Guthrie.
[00:03:40]  And last night, there was a report for a minute that an 84-year-old, this is unconfirmed online, had been taken to this hospital in Arizona via life flight.
[00:03:49]  And there was this hope where it was like, oh my God, what if, what if, what if?
[00:03:53]  And then they quickly said that's not her.
[00:03:56]  So you do get these periodic reminders that there's what you know and there's what you think you know.
[00:04:03]  And we do not know the status of Nancy Guthrie.
[00:04:07]  You know, Savannah and family are hoping and praying and believe she's still alive.
[00:04:12]  And then there are many of us who are hoping and praying she's still alive, but believe she's likely not for those reasons I stated.
[00:04:22]  In any event, we do know that she was forcibly taken from her home in the early hours of last Sunday, two Sundays ago, that day, February 1st.
[00:04:32]  And that means she has not been seen for 11 days, not by anyone who cares about her.
[00:04:38]  We were live on the air together when we got those stunning photos yesterday and the videos from the FBI in what is sure to be a game changer in this case, showing an armed man in a mask approaching Nancy's home in an incredibly creepy ass video.
[00:04:56]  So it seems the FBI is now taking an increased role in the investigation after the Pima County Sheriff's Department did not appear to be making much progress.
[00:05:05]  We heard that sheriff told us that he had sent off the videotape, or there wasn't videotape sent, but he had contacted the Nest camera company, which is Google, by the way.
[00:05:14]  That's who owns and makes Nest, saying, is there anything on here?
[00:05:17]  It's like the camera's gone.
[00:05:19]  He said it's not in our possession.
[00:05:21]  We have one, by the way.
[00:05:22]  We're going to get into it.
[00:05:23]  But here is what the Nest camera looks like.
[00:05:26]  And we're going to show you a demonstration that we did with this thing.
[00:05:29]  But he said they're gone.
[00:05:30]  We don't have them.
[00:05:31]  So we believe the perpetrator took the Nest cams off of Nancy Guthrie's doors, plural, front and back.
[00:05:39]  And he was telling us that that was kind of it because Nancy Guthrie didn't pay for a recording service.
[00:05:47]  And that meant there wasn't going to be a record.
[00:05:49]  He said the cameras record a couple, a little like some images, but they rewrite themselves every hour or so when you don't pay for the recording service.
[00:06:00]  And this, of course, you know, she was taken, we believe around 2.30 a.m. Saturday night to Sunday, and they didn't find her missing until the next day at noon.
[00:06:08]  So would have been long overwritten.
[00:06:10]  But he said they had reached out to Google to find out, you know, could anything be recovered?
[00:06:14]  Then the FBI got involved and things stepped up significantly.
[00:06:18]  It does seem that the FII got a warrant or put some pressure on Google.
[00:06:23]  We don't know.
[00:06:24]  Cash referred to like our private partners.
[00:06:27]  We worked with our private partners to get this done.
[00:06:31]  In any event, that's how they hit pay dirt.
[00:06:34]  And you can only imagine the guy whose job it was to actually call through all the cached images in the Google database of all the homes.
[00:06:43]  Maybe they can target it geographically.
[00:06:45]  Maybe he knew Tucson.
[00:06:47]  I don't know if you can get it down to a specific street, never mind a specific address, and try to comb through all these like stored images.
[00:06:55]  We're told by one expert that what happens is when you delete, when like the Google service is deleting Nancy Guthrie's images from 2.30 a.m. or 1.47 a.m. that night, it doesn't mean it's totally gone.
[00:07:10]  It means it's marked for deletion, but it's not actually gone until it's actually overwritten by something.
[00:07:16]  And it's possible just that piece of tape stored in the Google system had not yet been overwritten.
[00:07:22]  That's crazy to know how it works.
[00:07:25]  In any event, here's FBI Director Kash Patel last night on Hannity telling us that there are, quote, multiple persons of interest now.
[00:07:35]  Watch.
[00:07:36]  Sean, without polluting the investigation, I will say we have made substantial progress in these last 36, 48 hours thanks to the technical capabilities of the FBI and our partnerships.
[00:07:46]  And I do believe we are looking at people who, as we say, are persons of interest.
[00:07:51]  But as you know, with any investigation, you are a person of interest until you're either eliminated or you're actually found to be the culprit or the culprits involved.
[00:07:59]  And that's the stage we're at right now.
[00:08:01]  Multiple persons of interest.
[00:08:03]  That sounded promising.
[00:08:04]  And last night, a delivery man was detained right by the Mexico border on the Arizona side as part of this investigation.
[00:08:13]  SWAT was there.
[00:08:14]  We were told a hostage rescue team was on scene, at least.
[00:08:19]  At least in Tucson.
[00:08:20]  I'm not sure whether they actually wound up going down to this area near the Mexico border, but the reports of the SWAT team and the hostage rescue and then that report unconfirmed of an 84-year-old woman in a life flight, a helicopter.
[00:08:33]  And now multiple persons of interest and boom, somebody's a subject, that's how I referred to him, a subject is being detained and they're searching his house.
[00:08:42]  And the reporters traveled immediately down.
[00:08:45]  It was about an hour south of where Nancy Guthrie lived.
[00:08:48]  But it appears very much that they had the wrong guy.
[00:08:52]  His world has now calmed down dramatically.
[00:08:55]  Law enforcement has moved on.
[00:08:57]  He was released after they say his alibi checked out.
[00:09:02]  Now, again, I don't totally understand.
[00:09:04]  I'm not sure I believe the alibi thing.
[00:09:06]  I'm guessing they just talked to him and realized they had the wrong guy.
[00:09:09]  But the alibi, we heard from his mother-in-law, Brian Enton, intrepid reporter that he is, actually followed the cops down there, got the mother-in-law, Juanita, on tape on News Nation.
[00:09:20]  I watched it live.
[00:09:21]  And Juanita said his alibi was he doesn't work.
[00:09:27]  I think she said Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or it was Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights.
[00:09:31]  And he lives with her and her daughter and that he was home.
[00:09:36]  That was the alibi.
[00:09:37]  So it's not exactly airtight.
[00:09:40]  I'm just going to guess, since they do appear to have entirely moved on from Carlos, that there was something else that convinced them this was not their guy.
[00:09:48]  But this guy had his cage rattled last night.
[00:09:50]  He spoke to the media right after his release.
[00:09:52]  Watch.
[00:09:53]  How would you describe what happened to you?
[00:09:55]  Terrifying.
[00:09:56]  Something I didn't do for something.
[00:09:59]  I felt like I was being kidnapped, bro.
[00:10:01]  They didn't tell me anything at the beginning.
[00:10:02]  I was detained the whole time.
[00:10:04]  Okay.
[00:10:04]  That's what they told me.
[00:10:05]  Where were they?
[00:10:06]  Back of a car.
[00:10:06]  Back of a Miranda car, and then they moved me into a Fuma County sheriff.
[00:10:09]  Were you being questioned in the car?
[00:10:11]  At the Miranda car, I was being questioned, but they only asked me for my first name, my last name, my date of birth, and my social.
[00:10:17]  Okay.
[00:10:18]  What were they asking you about?
[00:10:21]  Where am I?
[00:10:21]  Whereabouts?
[00:10:22]  Okay.
[00:10:22]  Where did I work?
[00:10:23]  Where was I and all that?
[00:10:24]  But are you ever up in Tucson?
[00:10:26]  Yeah, I work in Tucson.
[00:10:27]  What do you do?
[00:10:28]  GLS, deliver packages.
[00:10:30]  Okay, do you think you might have delivered a package to Nancy Guthrie's house?
[00:10:32]  I don't know.
[00:10:33]  Might have been a possibility at all.
[00:10:38]  By the way, Josefina, not Juanita, is the name of his mother-in-law.
[00:10:41]  So the search for Nancy Guthrie and whoever took her continues.
[00:10:46]  Now, it's been just about 24 hours exactly since they released those photos.
[00:10:51]  And I guarantee the tip lines are going nuts.
[00:10:53]  Let's not forget there's been a $50,000 reward posted by the FBI for information that leads to the finding of Nancy Guthrie and or the arrest of whomever took her.
[00:11:02]  And there's been some criticism of that number by some people saying it should be higher if you want to truly incentivize somebody to turn in a bad guy.
[00:11:11]  And I get that argument.
[00:11:13]  I do.
[00:11:13]  I'm somewhat tempted by it.
[00:11:15]  But I think the general thinking is that if you go too high, you encourage all the nut cases.
[00:11:22]  Like they're just desperate to get money.
[00:11:24]  And so you, you know, maybe quadruple the number of tips coming in, but you quadruple them in the FBI's experience with no-nothings who are just taking a shot at getting the money.
[00:11:35]  I don't know.
[00:11:36]  I don't know enough about it to say whether this is a smart strategy or not.
[00:11:39]  I am sure that Savannah has said, I'll pay what I need to pay in order to incentivize the return of my mom.
[00:11:46]  And I'll bet you anything that she's had a lot of well-wishers.
[00:11:48]  I mean, I happen to know that she's dear friends with one of the richest families in New York, and there is zero chance those people could, you know, didn't offer to help her.
[00:11:57]  I mean, even the $6 million would have, it would have not even been a rounding error for them.
[00:12:02]  I'm sure, I'm sure they would have offered to help.
[00:12:05]  So it's got to be strategic, these decisions, not paying the ransom, though there's a question about that that I'm going to get into right now, and or not raising the $50,000 reward money.
[00:12:15]  Now, okay, on the ransom demands, because as you recall, there's not only the fact that Nancy's missing, there's this separate and possibly related lane of someone demanding ransom.
[00:12:29]  And this someone wrote to TMZ and two local Tucson news outlets, the same letter we're told by authorities, demanding a ransom saying they have Nancy, she's okay, but they want $4 million in Bitcoin if they had paid it by last Thursday.
[00:12:48]  When they didn't, they had said in advance, it's going to go up to $6 million.
[00:12:51]  And the final deadline is Monday, meaning two days ago, 5 p.m. Bitcoin.
[00:12:57]  You saw the family's pleas on camera saying, we understand, we want to hear from you.
[00:13:00]  They never contacted the family.
[00:13:02]  They only contacted the media with this message.
[00:13:04]  And the family begged for a direct message or instructions or proof of life, none of which ever came.
[00:13:10]  Harvey Levin was on the air the other day saying maybe that second letter, which he did not receive, it was only sent to one local news outlet.
[00:13:17]  Maybe it had proof of life.
[00:13:18]  It didn't.
[00:13:19]  That local news outlet's sister station reported, do we have the soundbite, Deb, from yesterday?
[00:13:24]  Can we bring it over?
[00:13:26]  Which is the sister station to that station, which I think is called Arizona Family, went on the air and specifically made clear that this second note, which they did not describe as a ransom demand because apparently it didn't renew that demand, did not have proof of life in there.
[00:13:47]  And it's one of the reasons why the Guthrie family was so forlorn, I am guessing, in their message where the three of them came back on camera and just said, we understand.
[00:13:58]  We have your message.
[00:14:00]  And give us back our mother so we can celebrate with her.
[00:14:04]  And so that, and we'll never have peace unless we can have this.
[00:14:09]  We will pay.
[00:14:11]  So it seemed to be a new negotiation of maybe she's not okay, but we'll still take her.
[00:14:18]  Like we want, to me, it sounded like we'll take her back dead or alive and we will pay.
[00:14:25]  This is all speculation because the authorities have not released the actual notes, even though we're now past the deadline, which, you know, I query whether it's now time to release the notes in the same way that they released the Unibomber writings because they might shed some light on who this is.
[00:14:44]  There might be somebody who recognizes a turn of phrase, et cetera, to say, oh yeah, I know who this is, or I see a clue that you didn't see.
[00:14:52]  Do we have it, Deb?
[00:14:54]  Sorry.
[00:14:55]  Okay, never mind.
[00:14:55]  We're going to move on.
[00:14:57]  Trust me when I tell you that the local station said there is no proof of life in the second soundbite.
[00:15:02]  So TMZ's Harvey Levin is back on the air again this morning.
[00:15:07]  This time he says TMZ has received a letter from someone who says they know who the kidnapper is and they want one Bitcoin, which is worth about $60,000 in exchange for giving up the name.

=== Bitcoin Scams and Real Addresses (05:35) ===

[00:15:23]  So they want their own ransom for revealing who the kidnapper is.
[00:15:29]  Here's Harvey trying to explain on Fox.
[00:15:32]  So an hour and a half ago, we got kind of a bizarre letter, an email from somebody who says they know who the kidnapper is and that they have tried reaching Savannah's sister Annie and Savannah's brother to no avail.
[00:15:51]  And they said they want one Bitcoin sent to a Bitcoin address that we have confirmed is active.
[00:16:00]  It's a real Bitcoin address.
[00:16:03]  And as they put it, time is more than relevant.
[00:16:08]  So we have no idea whether this is real or not, but they are making a demand.
[00:16:14]  It's interesting that, you know, Bitcoins fluctuate in value, but it's around $56,000 now, one Bitcoin, which is about the amount that the authorities are offering for information leading to the return of Nancy.
[00:16:31]  So I don't know if that aligns, but whoever sent this, and they actually give a name and an email address, but whoever sent this is asking for around that amount via Bitcoin.
[00:16:47]  So that person should be under arrest soon.
[00:16:51]  Like they're trying to extort whom?
[00:16:57]  The FBI, Harvey, TMZ, in exchange for giving information they should just give?
[00:17:03]  I don't know, actually, whether that's a crime or what that is, but it's despicable.
[00:17:09]  And Harvey said that he gave that information to the FBI.
[00:17:12]  So this person has given their name or a name and an email and a real Bitcoin address and saying time is more than relevant, which is a weird way of phrasing it.
[00:17:24]  That's not a thing.
[00:17:25]  Time is of the essence is the phrase.
[00:17:27]  Time is more than relevant.
[00:17:28]  So I'm not sure.
[00:17:29]  This could be, it sounds like just another scammer.
[00:17:31]  So we'll see.
[00:17:32]  But Harvey also seemed to have new information about whether a ransom has been paid into the Bitcoin account revealed in the first ransom letter to TMZ.
[00:17:44]  This is where things are getting interesting.
[00:17:48]  So with respect to Harvey, I think he's playing this whole thing too cute by half.
[00:17:53]  Okay.
[00:17:54]  Because, you know, he's lifting the dress up, but only so much.
[00:17:56]  And like, this is very important.
[00:17:57]  This lifer does stuff.
[00:17:59]  Like, I'm not sure.
[00:18:01]  I think if I were in his position, I'd probably either be saying nothing or everything.
[00:18:05]  I mean, he's a member of the news media.
[00:18:07]  And I guess he's given agreements to law enforcement not to reveal like so much, just enough to titillate.
[00:18:13]  I'm not sure what's happening here, but take a listen.
[00:18:17]  Late last night, there was a Bitcoin address that had $6 million deposited in it.
[00:18:23]  I don't know if that's real or a ruse, but I'm sure you know of it.
[00:18:27]  When you looked at that address, did it match what you saw in letter number one from several days ago?
[00:18:36]  I am not comfortable commenting on this.
[00:18:41]  Okay, so then it's possible that the Bitcoin address that was requested turned out to be this particular one.
[00:18:50]  I wouldn't read anything.
[00:18:52]  I wouldn't read anything into this.
[00:18:54]  Okay, so the suggestion that money was paid may not necessarily be the case.
[00:18:59]  Is that what you're saying?
[00:19:00]  Correct.
[00:19:03]  Do you have any idea what's happening?
[00:19:05]  I don't.
[00:19:06]  I'm sure you're just as confused as I am.
[00:19:09]  And Harvey would not even comment on the report from local Tucson station, KGUN, that indeed there had been activity in the Bitcoin account listed in that first ransom note, but that it was less than $300.
[00:19:26]  KGUN, which also received the same letter Harvey did, putting an actual number on what was deposited into the Bitcoin account.
[00:19:35]  That again, this is not the guy demanding a Bitcoin to reveal the name of the alleged kidnapper.
[00:19:42]  This is possibly the actual kidnapper who wrote a real ransom note saying, I have Nancy, she's okay, and I want $4 million or $6 million.
[00:19:53]  And Harvey revealed he saw activity in the account, but wouldn't say more.
[00:19:57]  KGUN, who also received that note, revealed we see activity in that account as well last night, but it's less than $300 that's been deposited into the account.
[00:20:08]  Watch, here's Harvey.
[00:20:10]  This $300 that was deposited last night that you were talking about with Sean, has that gone anywhere since that was reported last night by you?
[00:20:19]  I have never said an amount, and there is a reason I haven't said an amount.
[00:20:25]  And I am going to stick to that regardless of what anybody else has said.
[00:20:31]  There are reasons behind why I'm saying that, but I gave my word on something and I don't want to impede this in any way.
[00:20:44]  And I'm going to stick to what I said, which is simply that there was activity and I'm not going to say more about what the activity is.
[00:20:51]  I respect that.
[00:20:55]  It's just one of the many bizarre wrinkles on this story.

=== Gumshoe Work and Bitcoin Clues (15:35) ===

[00:20:58]  So here to break it all down, including what the authorities might be doing as we speak, are Jim Fitzgerald.
[00:21:03]  Fitz, he's a former FBI supervisory special agent, forensic linguist, and co-host of the Cold Red podcast.
[00:21:11]  And back for more after her amazing debut on the Megan Kelly show yesterday, Maureen O'Connell, a 25-year-old veteran of the FBI and co-host of Best Case, Worst Case, along with Mary Ellen O'Toole, who is with us today, another FBI veteran.
[00:21:25]  She's a criminal profiler who is now director of the forensic science program at George Mason University.
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[00:22:33]  Welcome to you all.
[00:22:35]  So I like you tell me what you think is happening with the Bitcoin account where you have Harvey saying, I see activity, but I'm not going to say what I see.
[00:22:45]  You have the local outlet saying, we see activity and it's $300 that was deposited.
[00:22:50]  And then you have Harvey saying, I refuse to comment on the amount that went in there.
[00:22:56]  But there is a report of $6 million being transferred into a Bitcoin account last night.
[00:23:06]  It has not been confirmed that it's the Bitcoin account, but there is a report that $6 million was transferred into a Bitcoin account last night.
[00:23:15]  Harvey not shedding any light on it.
[00:23:18]  Jim, you want to take a shot, Fitz, on anything happening here?
[00:23:22]  Do you have any idea?
[00:23:24]  Well, first of all, I want to thank you for coining a new term for us profilers, quote, creepy ass video.
[00:23:30]  We're going to add that to our lexicon of assessments from now on.
[00:23:35]  And also, I'm aware of, and I'm going to answer your question, but I understand in the last six months to a year, Netflix, when a series comes to them, the protagonist, someone in the show, you know, has to like every half hour summarize it for the viewers because they have ADHD.
[00:23:50]  They're on their phone at the same time.
[00:23:51]  They have to summarize the facts of whether the real or fictional story they're telling.
[00:23:56]  So if this thing ever goes to a series or movie, and I hope it does and with a happy ending with Mrs. Guthrie being, you know, fully recovered, there's going to have to be a lot of explanations because even listening to you for the last half hour, Megan, I'm still a bit confused about all the Bitcoin stuff.
[00:24:11]  But the important part is, you know, we're on the outside.
[00:24:15]  We're hearing truncated and partial versions of everything that the FBI knows for fact.
[00:24:21]  It doesn't mean by fact they have all the answers to it, but they have a lot more pieces of their puzzle put together than we do.
[00:24:27]  And they have experts full-time looking at this Bitcoin stuff, which I'm learning a lot more in the last few days about how that whole cryptocurrency concept even works.
[00:24:38]  It seems like it is traceable when people start removing money, but not up until that point.
[00:24:42]  And the FBI has ways of doing it.
[00:24:44]  So there's a lot of jetsom and floatsum going around here in this case.
[00:24:50]  I think the FBI, again, they're going to have this segmented, like I said before, on this task force.
[00:24:55]  There are multiple squads or units set up, and they're all, I guarantee there's a BitQuad, Bitcoin squad.
[00:25:02]  They're just focusing on this part of it.
[00:25:03]  There's someone else just focusing on the email address of these alleged ransom communications that came in.
[00:25:10]  And of course, others with the family, others with the material now on this video.
[00:25:14]  I think the prime aspect of the investigators at this point, they're looking at everything we just said, but they're going to focus on the video from yesterday.
[00:25:22]  That is a treasure trove of visual information, but also behavioral.
[00:25:27]  And we can get a little bit into down the line what folks should be looking for.
[00:25:30]  Wait a second.
[00:25:31]  I do want to talk about the video, but the reason I want to stay on the Bitcoin, Jim, and the reason I went to you first is yesterday we talked about tickling the wire.
[00:25:39]  And if you tell me whether that $300 deposited, if that's what it is, KGUN is saying it's 300 bucks.
[00:25:46]  Harvey's saying I'm not going to say because I told people I wouldn't say.
[00:25:49]  So to me, the way it reads to me as a reporter is Harvey agreed not to reveal any specific ins and outs of the Bitcoin account, but KGUN apparently did not agree to that.
[00:26:00]  And they're telling us that what was deposited into the bad guy, and this may or may not be the kidnapper, but it's definitely the ransom demander.
[00:26:08]  They're saying it was a $300 deposit.
[00:26:09]  And you tell me whether that would be something the FBI would do to see maybe what happens is when there's a deposit in your Bitcoin account, you get an alert.
[00:26:18]  You don't know how much it is, but you click on something that makes you identifiable, that makes you trackable now to the FBI.
[00:26:27]  And the first thing I thought was you're tickling the wire thing.
[00:26:30]  Yeah.
[00:26:30]  And I brought that term up the other day with you, and I appreciate you bringing it out here again.
[00:26:34]  That is something that's possible here.
[00:26:36]  It's being, and what I said in so many words are certainly intimated, and it's probably been happening all along, but doing things not just reactively on the part of the family and the FBI, but proactively.
[00:26:48]  And if it is this $300 or whatever the amount may be, somehow going into this account as a test deposit or however they would look at it, that would make perfect sense.
[00:26:58]  We're only getting that reported secondhand.
[00:27:00]  We'll say that from TMZ.
[00:27:03]  So we don't know for a fact that that's actually what happened.
[00:27:05]  But it certainly wouldn't surprise me if that's something the FBI is doing to generate some sort of activity somehow.
[00:27:12]  But also, even with this video being released, we know that video person is the abductor.
[00:27:18]  Why aren't there more proofs of life being put out there or even requested?
[00:27:22]  So a lot of stuff going on here.
[00:27:24]  And the Bitcoin part of it may wind up resolving this matter, but I still think it's going to be other more gumshoe type work that we can talk about later.
[00:27:33]  I mean, you tell me, Maureen, whether you think that's the FBI, because who else would be putting $300?
[00:27:37]  Nobody has that Bitcoin address other than the person who wrote it demanding $6 million, law enforcement, and now three news organizations.
[00:27:47]  And it's not going to be the three news organizations making it.
[00:27:50]  They would not mess with any sort of thing around this, I'm sure.
[00:27:54]  So it's got to be, it's got to be the FBI, does it not?
[00:27:58]  Well, I agree.
[00:27:59]  There's a good chance it's the FBI.
[00:28:01]  And my understanding is with a Bitcoin account or Bitcoin wallet, you don't always get alerts unless you have a service that provides alerts and you have in fact signed up for those alerts.
[00:28:15]  There would really be no way to tell that unless you put money in, fingers crossed.
[00:28:21]  Let's hope that whoever this person is does exactly what you said.
[00:28:24]  And I'm just going to log in and see if it's $6 million or $300.
[00:28:30]  You know, so I think it is a way to, you know, what we've seen here over and over in many different ways and all on down all different kinds of lanes is attempts to open the lines of communication between the family and law enforcement as one unit and the perpetrators of both of these crimes.
[00:28:54]  Well, here's the other thing.
[00:28:55]  What if it's not $300?
[00:28:59]  What if KGUN is wrong?
[00:29:01]  And what if this $6 million transfer in Bitcoin that's been documented, and we don't know whether this was deposited into the Bitcoin account.
[00:29:14]  What if they did pay?
[00:29:15]  What if they paid the ransom after the deadline, given how hot this case got yesterday, the prospect of, oh my God, now we see there is a man for sure.
[00:29:25]  He's out there.
[00:29:26]  He's panicked.
[00:29:27]  We're going to give him his money.
[00:29:29]  Because we talked last, when we hung up yesterday and we said goodbye to each other, now that this guy's face is everywhere, albeit behind a mask, what's he going to do?
[00:29:37]  Is he going to panic?
[00:29:38]  Is Nancy Guthrie, if she's still alive, in greater danger right now?
[00:29:42]  And I just wonder whether if I'm the Guthrie family, at that point, I say, I'll pay it, put it in the account.
[00:29:49]  I don't care.
[00:29:49]  It's a small price to me, especially with all these rich friends and Savannah's rich too.
[00:29:55]  I'm going to pay it.
[00:29:56]  And I don't care whether it's a fraudster.
[00:29:58]  It's an insurance policy.
[00:29:59]  I mean, how does that grab you, Maureen?
[00:30:02]  I agree.
[00:30:03]  And when you think of how we felt yesterday, all of us collectively, and I mean, I'm sure the family, law enforcement for sure, all of us watching those videos live, coming on, and you're saying, hey, there's another one.
[00:30:16]  There's another one.
[00:30:16]  What was happening?
[00:30:17]  Our adrenaline levels were just rushing.
[00:30:21]  Our veins were surging with adrenaline.
[00:30:23]  And so were those in law enforcement.
[00:30:25]  Now they've got a guy who's, you know, who they're looking at, whose phone pinged in the area at one point or another.
[00:30:31]  And, you know, so the Guthries were feeling the exact same thing.
[00:30:36]  They were all feeling this rush of something's got to be done.
[00:30:41]  You know, I mean, your brain screams that in your head.
[00:30:43]  So I could easily see a scenario where they would, in fact, pay that money just because they got caught up in the emotion that so many of us were trying to just slow it down, simmer down.
[00:30:57]  You don't have that luxury when it's your loved one.
[00:31:01]  And I can also see why they wouldn't want it publicized if they did pay.
[00:31:05]  Right.
[00:31:05]  Because whenever you pay the ransom, you're basically inviting more kidnappings.
[00:31:10]  I mean, there would be pushback from many to pay it because in a way, you endanger others who are in the public eye and their family.
[00:31:20]  It's not your fault, but paying the ransom does have the unfortunate side effect of endangering others because it rewards terrible behavior, terrible criminal behavior.
[00:31:30]  Mary Ellen, you're an expert in trying to figure out the profiles of these people who do this.
[00:31:36]  And I wonder now, having heard, we don't know whether the ransom notes, for short form, that's what we're calling them, are in fact from the abductor.
[00:31:47]  We do know there's an abductor beyond doubt now.
[00:31:49]  I mean, we have his picture.
[00:31:51]  But having heard what's in the ransom notes, which Harvey Levin has been repeatedly describing as from someone who is intelligent, that they are well written, that there are no grammatical errors.
[00:32:01]  And then you see this guy yesterday who like saunters up to the Nest Cam, doesn't seem to have a clear plan, kind of messes with it a little with his gloved hand.
[00:32:13]  That doesn't work.
[00:32:14]  It doesn't come off.
[00:32:14]  Like he hasn't thought about it prior to getting there, then tries to cover it up with vegetation.
[00:32:21]  I don't, are these two things consistent in your mind?
[00:32:25]  And have you been thinking at all about a profile for this guy who took her?
[00:32:30]  So that's a great question.
[00:32:33]  I think that's possible it could be the same person.
[00:32:36]  The fact that he walked up there and what was really striking to me, because it's hard to know, is this a really good writer?
[00:32:44]  Is this someone who's really articulate when he puts pen to paper?
[00:32:47]  But the comfort level that he seemed to show, at least in my opinion, he was very casual.
[00:32:54]  He didn't seem to be nervous.
[00:32:57]  He just seemed to walk up and to be comfortable.
[00:33:02]  That knowing that within moments, he was going to get into the home and commit one of the most violent crimes we know of, which is kidnapping.
[00:33:12]  And you did not see if he was feeling stress, if he was feeling anxiety.
[00:33:18]  It didn't come through in his behavior.
[00:33:20]  And I thought that was very interesting.
[00:33:22]  And that could be part of his personality makeup.
[00:33:26]  It could also be part of the fact that he's thought this through and there's a certain amount of planning and preparation that he went through.
[00:33:34]  Now, whether or not we can extrapolate that and say he's also a good writer, he's not a good writer.
[00:33:41]  I think what we could say is that this is someone who probably is fairly manipulative, someone that lacks the ability to empathize with the victim and what he's about to do.
[00:33:56]  So would there be a willingness on his part to send those notes about the ransom that would be extremely painful to the family as another form of just extreme violence towards the family or extreme cruel treatment?
[00:34:12]  I could see that happening.
[00:34:14]  But I'm not at the point right now that I'd say that they were, he's one and the same or totally different.
[00:34:22]  Can we look at this and say, and I know, Fitz, you do the same kind of work.
[00:34:25]  Can we look at this and say this guy's a sociopath because he's so calm?
[00:34:29]  Or you can't glean such a thing from doorbell camera tape.
[00:34:33]  Yeah, and I'm hesitant to do psych evals, you know, without having sit down with the person.
[00:34:38]  I'm not a psychologist, by the way, nor would I try to, but we can certainly render opinions in terms of indications of some sort of mental instability, whether diagnosable or not.
[00:34:48]  And I mentioned yesterday, you know, this guy may be on the psychopath scale somewhere, psychopathy scale, and in terms of his narcissism, lack of empathy, which I mentioned yesterday, and sympathy towards other.
[00:35:05]  And this guy is just like, he gets focused on his particular mission at hand.
[00:35:09]  And I said, you know, since last week, this person's mission oriented.
[00:35:13]  The implementation didn't look all that pretty when we finally saw how it was undertaken, but he knew how to get there.
[00:35:19]  He knew basically what to do to get in the door with a successful abduction.
[00:35:23]  Not a successful kidnapping so far, as far as we know.
[00:35:27]  We'll talk more about the 6 million.
[00:35:29]  So, yeah, the psychoval on someone like this, I'm always hesitant to do that.
[00:35:33]  I also don't want to give down the line defense attorneys any kind of potential defense there from this profiler Fitzgerald guy who said this early on.
[00:35:41]  So indicators of some sort of mental health issues, very possible, but I'm not prepared to go officially, nor would I, nor could I do any kind of a psychoval.
[00:35:50]  But people are going to know this type of behavior.
[00:35:54]  He's going to be an oddball of some sort, another clinical term I'll use here.
[00:35:58]  And most importantly, and we can get more into this later, but there's been a behavioral modification in the last week and a half with this guy.
[00:36:05]  Free offense, post-offense, and even more post-video.
[00:36:09]  And that's what I'd like to talk about at some point down the line here with you, Megan.
[00:36:14]  Because he's in a panic now.
[00:36:16]  Yes.
[00:36:17]  This happened, which you didn't plan on.
[00:36:21]  His face is everywhere.
[00:36:22]  I mean, I wonder how the arrest, not the arrest, but the detainment of the wrong guy last night affects the actual perp, right?

=== Behavioral Modification Signs (14:26) ===

[00:36:33]  There had to be a serious moment of panic when those pictures hit.
[00:36:36]  And then they've stopped what they say is the wrong guy and SWAT's at his house and so on.
[00:36:42]  That's got to be somewhat reassuring.
[00:36:44]  They don't have you yet.
[00:36:45]  You've got time to get out of town to, I don't, stay underground.
[00:36:50]  I'm not sure.
[00:36:51]  Like what would you three think the perp would do in the wake of the wrong guy?
[00:36:57]  If I could just start here and I'll let the other folks talk, but I think the term person of interest was coined during the Atlanta Olympic bombings.
[00:37:05]  At least I never heard that term before.
[00:37:07]  It's not really a legal term.
[00:37:08]  It's less than suspect or subject somewhere in the middle there.
[00:37:12]  And that was poor Richard Jewell.
[00:37:15]  And he went through hell with the FBI and the media back then involving lawsuits.
[00:37:22]  I was there doing some consulting at the time, but I had nothing to do with anything with Richard Jewell interviews.
[00:37:28]  And then years, you know, a year or two later, we found out it was Eric Rudolph was the Olympic bomber.
[00:37:33]  And we always commented among ourselves at how relieved he must have been that first few months.
[00:37:40]  The actual bomber of the Olympics had killed two people.
[00:37:44]  Here's a security guard, the one being accused.
[00:37:46]  So I'm just bringing in cases I've worked in the past.
[00:37:49]  So yeah, the real kidnapper, the guy on the screen, the video, and ostensibly, if there's kidnappers out there, they're saying, oh, good, let them stop someone else and get him.
[00:37:58]  But they're also going to know, I would think, that he's going to be ruled in or ruled out pretty quickly.
[00:38:02]  Unfortunately, this is not a Richard Jewell situation.
[00:38:04]  He was ruled out within a few hours and let go.
[00:38:07]  And now he's getting his interviews.
[00:38:09]  So, but a moment of relief, perhaps, for the guy on the video, but now he's back scared again and his behavior is still sort of erratic based on the baseline of what people knew him from before.
[00:38:21]  Here's the other question I have for you guys, and you can comment on that too.
[00:38:24]  But Maureen, what about the fact that there were tons of reports last night that SWAT was there, hostage rescue was there, and that officials, I don't know if it was FBI or local sheriffs, but cops were all over yet again, Annie Guthrie's property in the back and all over with her neighbors going door to door.
[00:38:47]  Annie Guthrie, not Nancy Guthrie's, Annie Guthrie's, where she had her dinner that night, but from whose house we are told by Annie and Tomas she was returned, that she did not stay overnight there, that they brought her back home, that Tomas, according to the sheriff, brought her back home at 9.48, where the garage door went up and 9.50, it went down.
[00:39:07]  So you tell me why law enforcement was flooding the field around Annie Guthrie's home last night.
[00:39:15]  I've said it before.
[00:39:15]  I've done a lot of rollback warrants on locations.
[00:39:19]  I have never, ever even heard of anyone going back four or five times.
[00:39:23]  I believe this is the fifth time last night.
[00:39:26]  It's got to do with new information coming in.
[00:39:29]  And the good sign, the good part of this, of them going back there is they obviously are receiving more information that they feel is actionable.
[00:39:38]  And you have to, you know, we have to look into it.
[00:39:42]  It keeps pointing back in the same direction.
[00:39:46]  Now, the fact that we detained the wrong person last night and the fact that they let him go quickly is a good sign.
[00:39:53]  They had a number of data points.
[00:39:55]  He didn't fit in.
[00:39:56]  He is a driver.
[00:39:57]  We have spoken from the very beginning that it was someone that was associated with the house or crossed paths with Nancy in some way, shape, or form.
[00:40:06]  And this person on his phone delivered a package probably short period of time before this event occurred.
[00:40:14]  And so he's in the crosshairs.
[00:40:16]  However, I think the other offenders did not bring their phones or we would know who they are by now.
[00:40:24]  They didn't have their phones in their cars.
[00:40:26]  So we don't know who was exactly in the area roaming around, you know, because sometimes a person may not have the phone in their pocket around their person, but they may have it in their car.
[00:40:36]  No, their phones were left at home, whoever did this, or they were secreted in another more interesting way, similar to the Brown shooter.
[00:40:46]  I think with the Brown shooter and also with Koberger, people learned a lot because of all the coverage and because of all the intense scrutiny of how are things done?
[00:40:57]  How can you avoid this?
[00:40:58]  He was stupid because he did this.
[00:41:00]  These people pay attention to this and they watch this and they feel they've learned from it and they all think they're smarter than everyone else and they're not.
[00:41:07]  But the fact that they keep going back to this same location every single time, these are oftentimes a conspiracy kidnappings of three people, two, three people as a general rule.
[00:41:20]  And I believe we can ask Fitz and Mary if that's what they believe.
[00:41:26]  But all the ones we've worked, there've been like three people involved.
[00:41:30]  So this person could have just been one of the people they thought might have been involved, but it hasn't.
[00:41:36]  So the refocusing has begun and it's intense.
[00:41:40]  And I don't think that that was the only person they had that they were looking at.
[00:41:44]  Well, if the if no, it's not, because Cash said persons of interest and he's not a dope.
[00:41:49]  He wouldn't have used the plural if he didn't mean it.
[00:41:52]  But Mary Ellen, what, you know, if you said to me, there's been a school shooting and I know nothing about who did it and you asked me for the profile, the likely profile of the shooter.
[00:42:02]  I mean, these days I'd say it's somebody, it's a male pretending to be a female on some sort of drugs.
[00:42:08]  I mean, there's just like been such an elevating elevation of people claiming to be trans doing the shootings.
[00:42:13]  But it's either that, I'd say, or it's a white male between the ages of 19 and 26 who's a loner, who's been going to the shooting range, who's probably done some violent sketches or social media, who'd spend a lot of time gaming potentially.
[00:42:31]  I mean, we know, like it is possible even for somebody like me who's not as skilled as you are to come up with a profile.
[00:42:38]  But what you say who, who kidnaps an 84-year-old woman in the dead of night?
[00:42:44]  And now you actually have the blessing of a picture of him doing part of the crime.
[00:42:49]  What does that profile look like?
[00:42:52]  Well, when you're talking about cases of the shootings, from the time of Columbine, which was 1999, we've had really thousands of shootings.
[00:43:03]  That's a lot of data where we can now comfortably say this is the kind of person that we're looking at.
[00:43:11]  These are the pre-offense behaviors.
[00:43:13]  But when it comes to kidnappings, especially like this, and all three of us have worked these kinds of cases or cases involving kidnappings that were part of like a serial murder investigation, this case itself is an outlier.
[00:43:30]  So it's very difficult to say, well, based on all the other cases similar to this, this is probably what we're looking at.
[00:43:38]  And that's always been the challenge when you're trying to develop sort of a, you know, a profile of an individual, because these just are extremely rare cases.
[00:43:49]  And so I think as Jim and Maureen were both pointing out, you go back and you take a look at how the crime was constructed and how the offender accessed the victim.
[00:44:00]  And Jim and I used to sit around in the conference room at Quantico.
[00:44:05]  And one of the first things that we did, we would look at victimology.
[00:44:09]  We didn't have those numbers of cases to go back and say nine times out of 10, what was it?
[00:44:15]  So we would have to go back and look at, for example, the victimologies.
[00:44:19]  The first thing that we looked at, is this a high or low risk victim?
[00:44:23]  Is this a victim where the crime scene was very low risk?
[00:44:27]  And Nancy is a very low risk victim.
[00:44:29]  She didn't live a criminal lifestyle and she was victimized in her own home, which was in a nice neighborhood with people around her.
[00:44:36]  So we're basically starting from scratch to identify what we think will information that will tell us something about this offender.
[00:44:47]  And then those videos last night were insight into the offender.
[00:44:51]  So we add that to the profile as well.
[00:44:55]  But again, going back and saying, this is what the data says, this is what the research says, we really don't have that because these cases fortunately don't occur that often.
[00:45:05]  So we're back to really building almost an original profile.
[00:45:11]  Do you guys think that they can do the FBI, because I've heard two different experts now, former FBI both, on the issue of facial recognition, notwithstanding the fact that he has a mask on?
[00:45:23]  And one guy said, we ran it on AM update.
[00:45:25]  Absolutely.
[00:45:26]  It can still be done, even though he's got the mask on.
[00:45:29]  And then there was another guy who gave an interview to Ashley Banfield saying, I don't think so.
[00:45:34]  Not with that mask on.
[00:45:36]  It's going to be too difficult.
[00:45:37]  Facial recognition does depend on angles and things like that and the iris too.
[00:45:42]  And you can see this guy's irises sort of, but they're reflected with light, so you can't really see them.
[00:45:49]  Do you have any idea, any of you, whether the FBI's facial recognition technology is likely to produce out some names?
[00:45:58]  They're working on it right now, I have no doubt.
[00:46:00]  They're contacting different software companies who have AI capabilities, and they're doing their best with that.
[00:46:06]  Long before I was on the Unibomb Task Force, 1987, the biggest break in that case at that point, eight, nine years old from the first bombing was the now iconic composite sketch of the Unabomber.
[00:46:21]  And that's all they had for evidence.
[00:46:22]  He went dark for then six years after that, then came back in 93, started bombing again and writing to the New York Times, et cetera.
[00:46:30]  So that was a big deal then.
[00:46:32]  Of course, AI didn't even exist.
[00:46:34]  Facial recognition software didn't exist.
[00:46:37]  But that composite really went nowhere.
[00:46:39]  You can ask yourself, you can look at Ted Kaczynski, eventually arrested in the composite.
[00:46:43]  Maybe, maybe not.
[00:46:44]  Even wrote his journal.
[00:46:45]  He put wads of gum, like in his cheeks and all to make himself look a little bit heftier, at least his face.
[00:46:50]  And of course, the hoodie and the hair had combed down.
[00:46:53]  So, and I'm not suggesting the person in this video.
[00:46:56]  He was brilliant, though.
[00:46:57]  Ted was brilliant.
[00:46:58]  This guy, this guy's with the vegetation.
[00:47:01]  He's not brilliant.
[00:47:02]  Yeah, I'm not comparing the two on levels of brilliance.
[00:47:04]  Kaczynski got away with it for 17 years.
[00:47:07]  This guy's up to about 10 days so far, give or take.
[00:47:10]  So, and this video being released was a mistake on his part, whether he had information, there was no subscription, so he was safe, although he's still trying to hide the camera with these darn flowers, whatever the hell that means.
[00:47:23]  Then it eventually takes it off.
[00:47:25]  He may have had inside information from somewhere that with no subscription, there will never be any video.
[00:47:30]  This surprised him like it did most of us yesterday in real time.
[00:47:33]  I was getting surprised, Megan, as you were putting these pictures out.
[00:47:37]  And then we analyzed them accordingly.
[00:47:39]  So this definitely altered his behavior.
[00:47:41]  And I'll let the other folks here, you know, about the AI facial recognition software.
[00:47:46]  It's out there and there's probably people claiming they can do something with it.
[00:47:50]  They're going to come up with maybe 10 or 12 different, we'll call them composites of what this guy looks like under the mask.
[00:47:56]  And maybe one of them.
[00:47:58]  I feel like you can see sort of what he looks like.
[00:48:01]  Like, let's put the pictures back on the board.
[00:48:04]  What I see is somebody with a very round head, like a super round head.
[00:48:10]  Maybe we can get like more of the full shot of him.
[00:48:14]  He's got large eyes.
[00:48:16]  They don't look hooded to me, you know, like a bunch of age has set in or like an Asian ethnicity.
[00:48:23]  They look pretty open, his eyes.
[00:48:25]  He's got what appear to be pronounced eyebrows.
[00:48:27]  Some people have focused on how they almost look like women's eyebrows, like overly plucked, but that could also be just his face mask and the way it's making them look.
[00:48:36]  So I'm not sure about the eyebrows.
[00:48:39]  He also seems to have stick out ears.
[00:48:42]  If you see like the more the side shot, his ears, some people's, if I put that thing over my head, you wouldn't even see my ears.
[00:48:50]  My ears are pretty flat to my head, but his aren't.
[00:48:54]  So that's interesting to me.
[00:48:55]  He definitely has, or at least wore fake facial hair, or it's real facial hair.
[00:49:01]  But I mean, I imagine he wasn't banking on getting seen on camera.
[00:49:05]  But in any event, he appears to have a mustache and either a soul patch or actual facial hair down below.
[00:49:11]  And again, as we said yesterday, he appears to be like kind of stocky, not skinny, that's for sure.
[00:49:19]  And either white or Hispanic, I think.
[00:49:22]  That's my guess.
[00:49:22]  I don't know, Maureen.
[00:49:23]  I feel like there's a fair amount there to go off.
[00:49:25]  There is so much information there, and I agree with you 100% on the eyebrows.
[00:49:30]  This is a guy who probably without this baklavan or ski cap, you would say he had beautiful dark eyes and just eyebrows that frame his eyes nicely.
[00:49:45]  It's the stitching around, and pardon me while I look at this photo I have on my phone so I can blow it up a little more.
[00:49:52]  But if you look at the eye openings on this mask, it's got about a quarter and a quarter inch stitch all the way around.
[00:50:01]  And the reason his eyebrows look as if they're beautifully groomed is because that stitching cuts off all the top where his eyebrows would be relatively unruly.
[00:50:12]  And, you know, it only shows just that perfect arc, so to speak.
[00:50:16]  He does have large eyes, but the close-up photo of his face that you see where you can see the lips and the upper, the mustache or the hair on his face, those lips are very, very distinctive.
[00:50:32]  If most of us were doing any type of work where we're handling something, you know, most of us like make some kind of a face or something.
[00:50:39]  Look at how calm he is.
[00:50:42]  He's about to break into an 84-year-old woman's home and he's sauntering around like he works there.
[00:50:49]  He's just as calm as hell.
[00:50:51]  He is so calm.
[00:50:52]  It's very telling because I swear it's like, is this like his job?
[00:50:57]  Because he's approaching it like I've done this many times.

=== VeracityHealth Discount Code (02:59) ===

[00:50:59]  Oh, the Nest camera.
[00:51:01]  I'll try to cover it up or maybe I won't.
[00:51:03]  I don't know.
[00:51:04]  I've got my backpack with, you know, I've got my gun on me.
[00:51:08]  Some tool was used against, could have just been fists against his 84-year-old victim inside.
[00:51:13]  But man, he's like, this is, I have more energy sitting down to this desk to do the show every day than this guy appeared to have.
[00:51:21]  Stand by, we have to take a quick break.
[00:51:23]  We're coming back on the opposite side, and I'm going to show you our Nest Camera experiment.
[00:51:27]  But I want to get your thoughts on his calm demeanor.
[00:51:29]  We'll be right back.
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=== Decoy Suspects and Fiddling Hands (15:08) ===

[00:53:59]  We're not live normally only on SiriusXM, but we went live on YouTube for today's show because there's so much going on.
[00:54:04]  And the folks in the chat have lots of thoughts.
[00:54:07]  And one of the questions that's getting debated is, was the guy that we see on this camera a decoy?
[00:54:13]  And was the real action happening behind the house at the back door?
[00:54:18]  And the reason he's so nonchalant is he's like, my buddy's back there.
[00:54:22]  My buddy's got this.
[00:54:23]  And the other possibility people are debating is whether there's any way he had already committed the crime here.
[00:54:29]  And this was just about trying to get the camera down as opposed to get into the home.
[00:54:37]  I mean, I suppose we can't tell that from looking at the doorbell camera, but anyone have a thought on whether the odds that this guy was just the decoy at the front?
[00:54:46]  We'll start with that one.
[00:54:48]  I would say if he was the decoy from the front, you're still going to and likely see a lot of anxiety in most people because he's now part of this crime.
[00:55:04]  If he is the person in the back who's actually committing the crime or he's already committed the crime and now he's just fiddling around with the cameras, he knows what he's done.
[00:55:15]  You're going to see a lot of anxiety.
[00:55:18]  I think the absence of a lot of anxiety and nervousness is profound here.
[00:55:24]  And Jim, you touched on it earlier.
[00:55:26]  I think it is profound.
[00:55:28]  And when you are about to commit or be a part of an extremely violent crime and you're just walking around casually, whether you're the decoy or whether you've come back to alter the camera and you can behave like that, that's how you behave in your non-criminal everyday life.
[00:55:47]  And that speaks to his personality.
[00:55:49]  And I think that's what we want people to know about him, along with the facial recognition.
[00:55:57]  They understand that.
[00:55:58]  They have seen that.
[00:55:59]  They could have lived with him or lived next door to him.
[00:56:03]  That is profound.
[00:56:06]  I'm thinking about the movie Free Solo and the guy who climbs the mountains and doesn't have ropes and, you know, at great risk to himself and how he just has a different adrenaline gland than the rest of us.
[00:56:19]  They actually studied him.
[00:56:21]  He just doesn't get the adrenaline flowing unless he does truly extreme things, which is not like normal humans.
[00:56:29]  And this guy seems to have a touch of it.
[00:56:33]  I mean, he doesn't, this does not, to me, look like somebody full of adrenaline.
[00:56:36]  He knows he's about to commit this crime.
[00:56:39]  He's not running around panicked on this patio, realizing he's standing on a woman's patio wearing a ski mask in the middle of the night.
[00:56:47]  Like if anybody drives by, he's potentially toast.
[00:56:51]  He doesn't seem perturbed about it at all.
[00:56:54]  Jim, you were going to say a minute ago what people need to look for right now.
[00:56:58]  Like, this is a real person who's out there right now, and there might be clues in his behavior.
[00:57:05]  Yeah.
[00:57:06]  And look, we've said from early on, Megan, that, you know, we can't rule out more than one person involved in this.
[00:57:12]  There's a car involved in this.
[00:57:13]  We can't see this in any of the videos that have been released so far.
[00:57:17]  And is there a driver in there waiting for that?
[00:57:20]  Did something happen at the back door?
[00:57:23]  As complicated as this case is, in many, many times, even working other complicated cases, and I worked some of them with Mary Ellen back in the day, sometimes, you know, Occam's razor is really what applies here.
[00:57:34]  And we can go overboard with all kinds of conspiratorial elements.
[00:57:40]  Exactly.
[00:57:41]  And so at least one guy here, perhaps with someone else in a car, perhaps not.
[00:57:46]  And then they take her to some other location.
[00:57:48]  And that's the second, well, that would be the third crime scene.
[00:57:50]  The car would be the second.
[00:57:51]  So we'll see where that goes.
[00:57:53]  But of course, that can't be ruled out.
[00:57:55]  But yeah, I just, as we profilers know, and we've been trained this way and we now impart this knowledge to other folks doing these type of work is, you know, what's important is pre-offense behavior, of course, the crime itself and post-offense behavior.
[00:58:10]  And each of those could have sub categories to them in terms of what they've been doing all along.
[00:58:16]  And basically, even before this crime, anyone, I'm talking right now to the people out there who are listening, and you have a really big audience, Megan.
[00:58:26]  So I know a lot of people are going to be watching and listening to this.
[00:58:29]  Someone knows this guy and they have possibly for weeks, months, or years.
[00:58:34]  They're related to him.
[00:58:35]  They're married to him, something like that.
[00:58:38]  This guy clearly was pre.
[00:58:40]  So look at the video and I'll let others out there discuss height and weight and build and all that stuff.
[00:58:46]  The way the guy carries the gun, I think Sigmund Freud would have a field day with how he has the gun right, you know, sort of in front of his crotch area.
[00:58:53]  Or in his crotch.
[00:58:54]  Yeah, but that's for someone else to go.
[00:58:56]  But before the crime, he's distracted.
[00:58:58]  He's busy.
[00:58:59]  He's sort of self-absorbed.
[00:59:00]  Hey, leave me alone.
[00:59:01]  I need some time here.
[00:59:03]  He's on the internet a lot.
[00:59:04]  And of course, he's making these purchases.
[00:59:06]  The old days would be in a store.
[00:59:08]  You walk in and buy stuff.
[00:59:09]  Nowadays, no doubt, Amazon or some other service.
[00:59:13]  Does he have money issues?
[00:59:14]  Does he complain about money?
[00:59:15]  Does he have some sort of resentment towards, and again, we're not sure this is about the money.
[00:59:20]  So I'm saying possibly the money issues, or does he have some reason?
[00:59:24]  Does he always watch the Today show with Savannah?
[00:59:27]  And is that some fixation he always had?
[00:59:29]  Would he yell at the screen when she would say something?
[00:59:32]  And we're familiar too on this panel with the rotomania.
[00:59:35]  That's a condition in the DSM, the diagnostic statistical manual that psychologists use and psychiatrists.
[00:59:41]  You know, that's a condition of stalkers.
[00:59:43]  And there's different levels of that too.
[00:59:45]  They think you have a love relationship when they've never met.
[00:59:48]  And I've worked a few of those cases over the years.
[00:59:50]  I know all of us have here.
[00:59:51]  And I've actually been, I've been sort of targeted myself in that regard, handled it, you know, accordingly.
[00:59:58]  Megan, I've no doubt you too.
[01:00:00]  So that's pre-offense behavior.
[01:00:01]  Post-offense is, you know, his schedule has been a miss.
[01:00:07]  He hasn't showed up for work.
[01:00:08]  He hasn't showed up places he should be.
[01:00:10]  Very quiet, very isolated at this point.
[01:00:14]  That is, if he still has Mrs. Guthrie's or not, we don't know, but certainly he'd be paying attention to her at least twice or three times a day.
[01:00:22]  He'd have to visit her.
[01:00:23]  And I'm going to the assumption she's still alive.
[01:00:27]  So he's being very careful.
[01:00:29]  I don't know if he's on email doing these types of emails, sending off.
[01:00:33]  I think that's someone else.
[01:00:34]  As I said the other day, the guy that steals your phone on the subway is not the one that makes money off selling it to some place to get the material out of it.
[01:00:42]  He just gets his quick 50 bucks.
[01:00:43]  Is that this guy's role?
[01:00:44]  Or is he just doing this strictly for anger and some kind of frustration?
[01:00:48]  The last part here.
[01:00:49]  Now, the video gets released about 25 hours ago.
[01:00:53]  He all of a sudden gets frenetic.
[01:00:55]  So whatever this guy's odd behavior was before, if you're around him, things changed.
[01:01:00]  He's looking to, he's putting things in bags and suitcases.
[01:01:03]  He's moving them out.
[01:01:04]  Does he start a fire in a barrel somewhere?
[01:01:06]  Does he get a shovel and start burying things, go somewhere near water?
[01:01:10]  That's a very possibility, moving around quickly.
[01:01:13]  Does he change his appearance, shave a mustache, cut his hair?
[01:01:17]  That's very possible.
[01:01:18]  Dye his hair, even though you don't really see any hair in that regard.
[01:01:22]  If he has a car, he may be keeping that inside a garage, not wanting it anywhere.
[01:01:26]  If he thinks now he's been seen on video, he may think his car has been on video.
[01:01:30]  And he's still very focused on the media.
[01:01:33]  He may be listening to us in real time.
[01:01:35]  And if he is, please let Mrs. Guthrie's go.
[01:01:38]  And the damage you've caused will be a lot less, including for you.
[01:01:42]  So I'll be glad to open this up to Maureen and Mary Ellen.
[01:01:45]  But these are some of the factors.
[01:01:47]  Look at the video.
[01:01:48]  Then look at these behavioral elements that I just listed.
[01:01:52]  And you could be somewhere in there.
[01:01:54]  And that's the person we're looking for.
[01:01:55]  Then call the FBI and let them know.
[01:01:58]  And I guarantee you, someone will follow up on it.
[01:02:03]  Do you guys have thoughts on that?
[01:02:05]  Yeah, I think right now this guy is very agitated and he's going to have a very short temper, whoever this person is, because he is trapped in a corner and he's a rat.
[01:02:16]  With regard to the front door or the back door, which one?
[01:02:20]  Well, they may have more video that shows him opening that door somehow.
[01:02:25]  And if he did, either it was a practice of Mrs. Guthrie to either accidentally or purposefully leave that door unlocked, which is, I would have a hard time believing that, or they may have had a key.
[01:02:37]  I don't know.
[01:02:38]  And then they open the back door just to make it look like they came in from the back door.
[01:02:45]  That's true, because we don't see him struggling with the door at all.
[01:02:47]  We only see him struggling with the Nest camera.
[01:02:50]  So we still remain in the dark about how he actually got into the house.
[01:02:54]  Go ahead, Mary Ellen.
[01:02:55]  Okay.
[01:02:55]  And to add to what Maureen and Jim have already said, you've got the behavioral modifications to his appearance that he very likely could have engaged in.
[01:03:08]  But what he can't change is his personality.
[01:03:10]  It is what it is.
[01:03:13]  And I think that he's probably glued to the TV, to the radio, listening to people talk about what he's done.
[01:03:22]  And I think one of the real questions that I always have in a crime of extreme violence is, does the offender feel bad for what they've done to the victim?
[01:03:32]  And not to become too graphic, but this was probably so upsetting for Nancy to have this happen to her, to be taken out of her home and put in a car with a stranger.
[01:03:47]  I mean, what she must have gone through is agonizing.
[01:03:50]  What her family is going through is agonizing.
[01:03:53]  I think we have to allow for the possibility, Maureen and Jim, and I have seen people like this.
[01:03:58]  They have no empathy for the victim.
[01:04:01]  And so you asked earlier about what he would think about somebody else being pulled over for his crime.
[01:04:10]  That may not have gone well with this offender because he wants credit for what he did.
[01:04:15]  If that's the kind of offender that we're talking about.
[01:04:17]  And I can tell you this, and Maureen and Jim, you weigh in on this.
[01:04:21]  This is the hardest thing for the general public to comprehend is that there are people that feel no remorse for what they do, no empathy for the victim, and take a great deal of pleasure in what they've accomplished and that they feel they are outwitting law enforcement in this investigation.
[01:04:40]  If that's what we're dealing with, that puts this person in a whole different category.
[01:04:45]  And that's what we try to do is we look at all of this behavior and offer it to the investigators to say, you could be looking for this kind of person post-behavior, but you also could be looking for somebody like this.
[01:04:59]  At this point, we're not sure, but you have to consider the possibility this person doesn't feel anything for the victim and what they've done.
[01:05:08]  And that, I mean, that's the scariest thought of all because we don't know where Nancy Guthrie is and whether it's possible she's still alive.
[01:05:15]  There was some speculation.
[01:05:17]  We've talked about it that like an experienced kidnapper takes the medications.
[01:05:21]  Like they actually, it's not because they care about the victim at all.
[01:05:25]  It's that they know I've got to keep my prize alive and well if I want to get paid.
[01:05:30]  But this guy does not appear to have taken her medication and does not appear to have been in touch if he didn't write those two ransom notes, the first ransom note to the three news organizations and then the follow-up note where there was no proof of life, but really just like a reminder that I've got her.
[01:05:48]  And I'm just assuming that's what's in there.
[01:05:51]  This is the thing I've wanted to get to, though.
[01:05:53]  The Nest camera.
[01:05:55]  It's very interesting that he came up.
[01:05:57]  So like, keep in mind, one of our theories is that possibly, possibly he stalked the house and knew it well and like knew exactly what his plan was coming up.
[01:06:07]  Another one is possibly he was hired by a friend or a family member of Nancy Guthrie's and told, please go at one in the morning and do the following thing, 147.
[01:06:18]  And that person would have told him under the second theory, there's a nest camera.
[01:06:24]  Now, that could be why he wore a ski mask or he wore a ski mask because he didn't want Nancy Guthrie to be able to identify him.
[01:06:31]  We don't know.
[01:06:32]  But he shows up there almost surprised.
[01:06:35]  I don't know that there's a nest camera.
[01:06:36]  And the reason I say he looks surprised is because you see him sort of fiddling with it.
[01:06:40]  He's got his gloved hand.
[01:06:42]  He's kind of fiddling with it.
[01:06:43]  He does the bang, bang, bang, the gentle taps on the nest camera.
[01:06:47]  He doesn't try that hard.
[01:06:49]  And then he gives up.
[01:06:50]  He's like, I'm going to cover it with vegetation.
[01:06:53]  And he goes and he gets the vegetation and comes back and covers it.
[01:06:55]  And then we never see him get the nest camera off of the wall.
[01:07:00]  We do see in the post-crime pictures taken after police got involved, the remnants, the receptacle that holds the nest camera still there.
[01:07:10]  And we know from the sheriff, yeah, that they don't have the nest cameras.
[01:07:14]  The law enforcement does not have the nest cameras.
[01:07:16]  The perpetrator took them.
[01:07:17]  So eventually the guy does get the nest camera.
[01:07:20]  And we're told by Ashley Banfield that there was one in the back door too.
[01:07:23]  And he got both of them.
[01:07:24]  Her store said they were destroyed.
[01:07:26]  And the sheriff said, we don't have them.
[01:07:28]  So we believe he destroyed them and took them.
[01:07:31]  But we know for a fact that they were gone.
[01:07:34]  So what do you see?
[01:07:35]  Do you see like a clever man come up and boom, boom, the nest camera's off, it's destroyed.
[01:07:39]  You see him step on it and the filming stops?
[01:07:41]  No, that's not what you see.
[01:07:43]  You see him come up, do the tap, tap, tap.
[01:07:45]  He gives up.
[01:07:46]  He gets the vegetation.
[01:07:47]  And then we're not exactly sure what he does after that because the videos don't all seem sequential.
[01:07:52]  We're not exactly sure what the sequence of events was.
[01:07:54]  But let me show you.
[01:07:55]  So we got, we had our producer Jake Whitman get a Nest camera and try to get it off of its holder on the wall.
[01:08:05]  And he did this little video.
[01:08:06]  It's very clear.
[01:08:07]  Watch this.
[01:08:08]  Watch.
[01:08:09]  Okay, Megan, I've installed the Nest doorbell camera on our door to the garage here.
[01:08:14]  And what's interesting is it comes with a little tab, just a little flat tab, almost like a tip of a screwdriver, really.
[01:08:24]  And that's how you remove it from the top.
[01:08:26]  So you just push down and it clicks right off.
[01:08:30]  Sort of.
[01:08:32]  There it goes.
[01:08:33]  So it pulls right off that way.
[01:08:34]  And that's how you take it off to charge it because it is battery powered.
[01:08:37]  It needs to be charged every so often.
[01:08:39]  There's no wires here.
[01:08:41]  And you'll see this plate looks exactly like the one that you see on the house at Nancy Guthrie's house and all the news videos.
[01:08:49]  So it's the same model.
[01:08:51]  And to put it back, you just click it on its base after you've charged the battery and it's there.
[01:08:59]  And the question is, how do you get it off without the tab?
[01:09:02]  And I was excited because you said we could smash this if we wanted to and you'd pay for it.
[01:09:07]  But you don't need to do that.

=== Smashed Cameras and Audio Issues (11:44) ===

[01:09:08]  You actually, just with a little bit of force, even pull it right off.
[01:09:14]  And the base is still there, undamaged.
[01:09:17]  And actually, this camera is still recording.
[01:09:19]  So if I take this and throw it or put it in my bag, it's still going to be recording for a little bit longer.
[01:09:25]  So I got to think there's still video of that that they haven't recovered that might show a different angle of things that we haven't seen.
[01:09:31]  There's no evidence that it was damaged on the front porch.
[01:09:34]  So my guess is it was just taken out of Wi-Fi range and that's why it disconnected.
[01:09:40]  Or they could have turned her Wi-Fi off.
[01:09:43]  But taking it off the base, like I just did, does not disconnect it in any way.
[01:09:49]  It's still capturing.
[01:09:58]  That is so interesting.
[01:09:59]  So that's Jake Whitman.
[01:10:00]  Great job there.
[01:10:02]  Taking it off the base is easy and does not stop the filming.
[01:10:08]  And anybody who knows the Nest camera should know that if you have this little key, it's the size of like a key a girl might have for her diary for the listening audience.
[01:10:19]  It's small.
[01:10:20]  It's like an inch large.
[01:10:22]  It pops right off.
[01:10:24]  And so it would take nothing for like an experienced burglar or kidnapper who's by this point probably familiar with nest cams to know, oh, all I need is this little thing.
[01:10:36]  It's off.
[01:10:37]  And you don't even need this.
[01:10:38]  You saw Jake just wiggle it a little in its cradle and it came right off.
[01:10:46]  So what, and it's small.
[01:10:48]  I mean, you have it.
[01:10:50]  It fits right in the palm of your hand.
[01:10:52]  And then we can talk about what happens next because there's not an on-off switch, guys.
[01:10:58]  It doesn't getting it off is not enough.
[01:11:01]  Getting it off, it should still be rolling.
[01:11:03]  And there should still be images of the guy getting it off, which maybe Cash has and just hasn't shared.
[01:11:09]  But what does it tell you?
[01:11:11]  Just so far, I'll stop it there that he didn't seem to know how to get it off.
[01:11:16]  He tried.
[01:11:16]  He did the wrong thing with the fist, fist, fist, and seemed to be a bit of an amateur there.
[01:11:22]  Go ahead, Fitz.
[01:11:22]  Yeah, real quick.
[01:11:24]  The audio from your producer, Jake, was that from his separate mic system, or is that from the Nest camera?
[01:11:32]  There is audio to these cameras.
[01:11:33]  I think that's separate.
[01:11:35]  We're going to ask.
[01:11:36]  I'm guessing it's separate.
[01:11:37]  And he did tell me that this thing has audio, but the default setting from the factory is no audio on.
[01:11:45]  So you'd have to go into the system and turn the audio on if you wanted that, which the odds of Nancy Guthrie, you know, knowing how to do that.
[01:11:56]  I mean, I guess she could have told the Nest camera installer that she wanted that, but we didn't hear, we didn't hear audio and what the FBI released.
[01:12:02]  So I'm just going to guess there wasn't any.
[01:12:04]  Keep going.
[01:12:06]  Maureen, we talked during the break and you have some insight about these cameras.
[01:12:10]  I think that was a great, that was great for your audience to put that up there, Megan.
[01:12:13]  A good idea for your team's part.
[01:12:15]  Maureen, I'd be curious to hear some of what you were telling me over the break.
[01:12:18]  Okay, great.
[01:12:19]  But first, Nancy didn't install this, and whoever this person is did not install this Nest camera, or he would know what you just explained to us.
[01:12:28]  But I have a very close colleague that I work with on my team all the time, and he is an IT genius.
[01:12:35]  And he said that with regard, Megan, this is with regard to how the FBI extracted this data back after people thought it was gone.
[01:12:47]  Would you like to go into this now, or would you like to finish with it?
[01:12:52]  Let's finish with it because, by the way, Jake is telling me now that the audio was both.
[01:12:57]  When we were watching the Nest video of him, it was playing, the audio was playing from the Nest.
[01:13:03]  And when we were watching his nicer video of like more color shots, it was Jake's audio on his mic.
[01:13:10]  So in other words, you can get decent audio from Nest.
[01:13:12]  Go ahead.
[01:13:13]  Just real quick, and I'll get back to Maureen.
[01:13:14]  But can you imagine if he took those with him, this guy in the mask, and he's someone in the car or he starts talking to himself, still within Wi-Fi range of the house, what valuable information that could be on audio.
[01:13:27]  But the crime itself, too, of course, which this is all.
[01:13:34]  But here's why I raised that.
[01:13:36]  It's not just for fun.
[01:13:37]  So we're going to do an experiment here, not just for kicks, but because what did we see in the Brian Enton video of the front stoop?
[01:13:46]  We saw that the vegetation and the blood was still there.
[01:13:50]  They did not clean it up.
[01:13:53]  What didn't we see?
[01:13:55]  A smashed Nest camera.
[01:13:57]  He probably did.
[01:13:58]  We did not see any pieces of Nest camera smashed in the front or the back.
[01:14:02]  And actually, so that's, we're just going to see.
[01:14:04]  I mean, just to see.
[01:14:06]  They brought me a little cutting board.
[01:14:08]  They brought me a hammer.
[01:14:09]  And I am going to try to hammer this Nest camera just to see if it's hard.
[01:14:12]  All right.
[01:14:12]  So I have a hammer.
[01:14:14]  I'm going to smash this Nest camera.
[01:14:15]  Be careful, Megan.
[01:14:16]  I will.
[01:14:17]  I will.
[01:14:17]  Do you have glasses?
[01:14:18]  Just to see if it's easy.
[01:14:19]  Do you have glasses to put on?
[01:14:20]  Do I have what?
[01:14:21]  Do you have glasses to put on in case you're not going to be able to do that?
[01:14:23]  I'll wear my reader glasses.
[01:14:25]  I'll wear my readers.
[01:14:26]  Okay.
[01:14:27]  Put a flashlight in your mouth and a mask.
[01:14:30]  Okay, here we go.
[01:14:33]  No, it's not that easy to destroy.
[01:14:35]  But the camera parts probably.
[01:14:39]  I've destroyed the lens.
[01:14:44]  All right.
[01:14:44]  So now I've really wailed on it.
[01:14:46]  there's just tiny little pieces of glass and shards, but the actual camera itself is still pretty much intact.
[01:14:52]  I should have warned the listening audience that that was going to be right by the microphone.
[01:14:56]  My bad.
[01:14:56]  Thank you.
[01:14:58]  But where, so it did take some effort.
[01:15:01]  And it's possible he took this, you guys, but where are the remnants of it?
[01:15:05]  And if he, the camera went out, and when I smashed it, or my, we had it online just as an experiment, it went offline when I smashed it.
[01:15:12]  Oh, so there's no remnants of it, however, and it's gone.
[01:15:16]  So you tell me whether you think Kash Patel possibly has shots of this guy stealing it, damaging it, or whether the guy was so dumb, he took it eventually, put it in that backpack, and possibly they have actual pictures of the inside of the house and what went down that are waiting to be retrieved by the geniuses at Google.
[01:15:38]  Or the audio.
[01:15:41]  No, I should your producers, I mean, obviously they were there when you were smashing it.
[01:15:48]  Could the information that Ashley Banfield provided to you that it was in fact smashed and destroyed, could that have come from someone who was knowledgeable of the fact that someone, they had video or audio of someone smashing the hell out of me?
[01:16:05]  That's a good question.
[01:16:07]  Can I just throw in here?
[01:16:09]  I've put these cameras in in a couple different houses.
[01:16:12]  They need batteries.
[01:16:13]  You don't have to smash it.
[01:16:15]  And your producer can correct me.
[01:16:17]  I think they don't run without batteries.
[01:16:18]  They don't have a built-in battery.
[01:16:19]  Remove the two AAA batteries.
[01:16:22]  I think he said we had to charge it.
[01:16:24]  No, he said it wasn't battery operated.
[01:16:26]  He said you have to plug it in and charge it.
[01:16:27]  And even before we used it here on the set, we had it plugged into like an iPhone charger.
[01:16:31]  All right.
[01:16:31]  So then the power would stay on and it would have to then be smashed.
[01:16:34]  He did say if you disconnected the person's Wi-Fi, the camera will die.
[01:16:38]  Like it does have to be connected.
[01:16:40]  But like the odds of this guy having, like, did he get in there and disconnect her Wi-Fi?
[01:16:44]  No, no, that guy, that numbskull with the vegetation.
[01:16:48]  No.
[01:16:48]  So he must have destroyed the camera.
[01:16:50]  They must have additional pictures because like all those shots, we don't see the end of this.
[01:16:55]  And so I do wonder whether the FBI knows more than it's telling us about what exactly happened to the cameras, knows exactly how this guy dismantled them, and maybe has shots of him in the backyard too.
[01:17:07]  Because my guess is when he couldn't get into that front door, almost all of our experts think he couldn't have gotten through that front door.
[01:17:15]  That he went around to the back, that he had more luck in the back, that he got rid of that camera.
[01:17:20]  He went in the back door.
[01:17:21]  He may have broken the back door, which is why it was open, according to Ashley, when they got there.
[01:17:26]  And then he brought Nancy out the front when the crime was done.
[01:17:30]  And that's maybe when he grabbed the ring camera or the Nest camera off the front when he was on his way out of the house with it.
[01:17:40]  But still, we have the FBI telling us that it was 1.47 a.m. that the Nest camera went offline and 2.28 a.m. that the pacemaker stopped communicating.
[01:17:53]  So I just, I wonder whether there is more, there's more to be recovered.
[01:17:59]  And now we can talk about how Google might be trying to find those images.
[01:18:04]  Well, my money would be on him ripping the camera off before, because he knows for sure his hands are going to be full on his way out.
[01:18:12]  So that would be what I would expect to see, but of course I could be wrong.
[01:18:18]  So with regard to how they probably got this imagery for us.
[01:18:28]  And might get more.
[01:18:29]  Yeah.
[01:18:30]  I'm sure they do.
[01:18:31]  I don't think that they would cough up everything they have, but just having been in these situations, Fitz and I have seen information go out from the Bureau many times and in other investigations we've been involved in.
[01:18:42]  And it's very rarely, actually, I could say it's never been everything we have ever.
[01:18:48]  So not specifically knowing what the platform is, even though it's a Google platform.
[01:18:54]  We don't know exactly how this thing is configured.
[01:18:57]  The camera does send its video to vendor servers platform so that it can be routed to the user's mobile application for live viewing.
[01:19:05]  Remember, I talked to you yesterday about the thumbnail.
[01:19:09]  We have that.
[01:19:09]  The announcement that somebody comes to your door, you can see it on your phone.
[01:19:13]  So for live viewing, even when they don't have a subscription for storing the video data on the vendor server, I would imagine the vendor was able to recover the user's streaming video from their platform's memory.
[01:19:27]  And a way to illustrate this, imagine that you send an email from your account to my account, but you don't save the email to one of your email folders.
[01:19:35]  Evidence of the email communication would still exist for a limited period of time on the email servers due to this routing process.
[01:19:43]  So it's all about the routing process.
[01:19:45]  As another example, if you had a CCTV camera that you viewed on a mobile app, the video data has to be sent over to a video platform for processing before it's routed over the internet to your mobile app.
[01:20:00]  The platform's processing memory, the ramps.
[01:20:03]  The cached photos would have traces of this processing just for a limited period of time.
[01:20:08]  If you had a subscription, obviously it would be much longer.
[01:20:12]  So well, that, I mean, they're probably finding all of it.
[01:20:16]  It seems like a needle in a haystack situation that Google's helping with now, either because we're told that they did get a warrant.
[01:20:24]  We're also told that the Guthrie family gave permission, of course, on behalf of their mother.
[01:20:29]  And the FBI and Google have been working together to find, but it sounds like it's needle in the haystack stuff to try to get to the image.
[01:20:35]  It's not like very clear.
[01:20:36]  Oh, I'll just go to the address of Nancy Guthrie and I'll pull up what's there.
[01:20:39]  No, it's it's I do data extraction for a lot of my clients because I have these experts that work for my company.
[01:20:47]  And I even have a very high-level PhD person that is just outstanding.

=== Inexperienced Co-Conspirators (04:12) ===

[01:20:53]  And he says he never works with the guy on my team who worked for the FBI for 30 years.
[01:20:59]  He never works with him for more than 15 minutes without learning something.
[01:21:02]  That's how good he is.
[01:21:04]  But Megan, could I talk for a moment about what Kash Patel said about the partnerships that we have with private sector?
[01:21:10]  Because my last couple of years as an agent, I was completely burned out from casework.
[01:21:16]  And I became the PSC, which is the private sector coordinator.
[01:21:20]  With that, I was responsible for the InfraGuard, the InfraGuard program, which is the largest national public-private sector partnership anywhere that we know of.
[01:21:31]  And it's run by the FBI and funded largely by the FBI and also DSAC.
[01:21:37]  And between DSAC, which is the domestic security, it's all Fortune 100 companies that were, I guess it could be Fortune 500 companies.
[01:21:46]  So we work very closely with members from every sector.
[01:21:50]  And we try, if we're low on one sector and we see spikes in crime in that sector, we work hard to develop more relationships with people so that we have someone to call when there is an emerging situation.
[01:22:03]  And if you can see that.
[01:22:04]  Well, I mean, this is an important one.
[01:22:06]  The Nest camera.
[01:22:08]  This is what this is what we do.
[01:22:10]  Well, that makes perfect sense.
[01:22:12]  And thankfully, they're cooperating.
[01:22:14]  But you tell me, you know, one person that didn't coordinate was the guy who did this crime with anybody who's installed a Nest camera.
[01:22:23]  Because why wouldn't he have just brought the key?
[01:22:25]  Truly, this thing alone could have gotten that thing off in two seconds.
[01:22:29]  Or you saw Jake Whitman pull it, just wiggle it.
[01:22:32]  So this guy does not have experience.
[01:22:34]  What that tells me is he's not that experienced at committing these break-ins because these cameras are a dime a dozen now.
[01:22:40]  Almost everybody has them.
[01:22:42]  He didn't seem to know what he was doing.
[01:22:44]  And it does make me question whether he had any coordination with a family member of Nancy Guthrie, because that person would have told him there are nest cameras.
[01:22:53]  You're going to have to get it down.
[01:22:55]  There should have been some pre-planning.
[01:22:56]  And now I'm starting to wonder how well thought out this whole thing was.
[01:23:01]  Because why didn't he know any of this?
[01:23:04]  Like, this is basic prep work, is it not?
[01:23:07]  Especially if he's like the super intelligent, never makes a grammatical error guy who wrote the things that impressed Harvey so much.
[01:23:14]  He doesn't, he didn't know about the little key.
[01:23:17]  He didn't know about the wiggling.
[01:23:19]  He had to do the vegetation.
[01:23:21]  Like, who is this person?
[01:23:22]  He could have been told by his co-conspirator that it's very easy.
[01:23:25]  Just pull it right out of its housing.
[01:23:28]  But he's not a manhandler like whoever his co-conspirator was or is.
[01:23:33]  Or he had help in the back who had a lot easier time getting down the back nest camera and possibly opened up the front door for him.
[01:23:42]  Or, you know, we don't, there may have been another person there, but to me, it just seems incongruous that you have this guy show up like a numbskull, not able to wiggle the nest camera down and resorting to, I'm just going to put some flowers over it, which doesn't seem like a great plan, you guys.
[01:24:01]  You know, it just, it seems haphazard.
[01:24:03]  Megan, the most glaring thing of all is the way this clown carried his weapon.
[01:24:10]  He brings a whole new meaning to the term gunslinger.
[01:24:14]  None of us have ever seen anything like this.
[01:24:18]  And Fitz was right when he said, you know, with his comment earlier.
[01:24:25]  Freud would have a field day.
[01:24:26]  Uh-huh.
[01:24:28]  Ridiculous.
[01:24:29]  It's right.
[01:24:30]  It's it's it's in exactly the right spot.
[01:24:33]  Um, and we talked yesterday about it seemed to have sort of an extended um barrel, which is part of the whole theory.
[01:24:39]  Or it was, I don't know how that translates into what people are looking for.
[01:24:44]  He's happy to be there.
[01:24:45]  Yeah.
[01:24:46]  But I mean, that just shows all right.
[01:24:48]  He's macho or something because that, that, um, that holster is for a longer barreled um uh revolver.
[01:24:58]  And here he's got a smaller semi-automatic in there.
[01:25:02]  But again, it's like the boldness of it.

=== Food Prep and Camera Malfunctions (06:15) ===

[01:25:05]  You're like, I would think if you're going to go rob somebody's house, first of all, I think you'd be you'd have like a hat on, you know, to make yourself look less conspicuous, like hide your ski mask.
[01:25:16]  I would definitely think you'd hide your gun.
[01:25:18]  It's like, how can I make myself look as much like a criminal as humanly possible?
[01:25:24]  I'm going to put my gun right here on the outside where everybody can see it.
[01:25:28]  And you were telling us yesterday, Maureen, this is actually, this looked to you like a holster that normally is supposed to go on the inside of your pants.
[01:25:35]  But no, he wore it on the outside.
[01:25:36]  He wanted to show it off.
[01:25:37]  I guess maybe he wanted to scare Nancy.
[01:25:40]  And the ski mask, which also is very intimidating and scary.
[01:25:43]  But it's like, okay, once you can get into the house, you can look very scary, but God forbid somebody see you.
[01:25:47]  You're toast.
[01:25:49]  There was no pre-planning for the thought that somebody could see him.
[01:25:51]  His plan was to kill that person.
[01:25:53]  And can I correct something I said yesterday that wasn't correct?
[01:25:56]  Because as you know, when these images first came to us, they were popping up on air and my screen is small and the images were a fraction of my screen.
[01:26:08]  I mistakenly said that those gloves were leather because of the small image.
[01:26:13]  Once I saw the larger, the larger images, it was clear to me that they were black rubber or plastic gloves over cloth or some other type of glove, which, by the way, in forensics, when you wear gloves like that all day, like you see them all the time in food service, by the way, they all wear those black, they're like food prep.
[01:26:37]  They're very common to be used as food prep gloves.
[01:26:40]  But when you wear them all day, your hands sweat and it makes everything difficult to, it makes your fine motor skills much more difficult.
[01:26:48]  So in forensics on the FBI's ERT team, we would always use cotton gloves, really thin cotton gloves under whatever rubber gloves we're wearing or latex or just to make, because then you can wear them for long periods of time.
[01:27:07]  He wasn't thinking he was going to be in there for long, but long enough.
[01:27:10]  Go ahead, Fitz.
[01:27:11]  Two things.
[01:27:13]  Quasi-related.
[01:27:16]  I don't want to give this guy too much credit.
[01:27:19]  We'll say the guy at the door, we're not ruling out other people involved.
[01:27:22]  And who knows where the kidnapping part comes in.
[01:27:25]  But I still can't believe he didn't have some sort of information about the house, certainly who lives there.
[01:27:33]  She could have been an 84-year-old woman who doesn't have a daughter who's very wealthy and successful on TV and takes her out.
[01:27:40]  So he knew all of that.
[01:27:41]  But I'm wondering if the inside information was, don't worry, they don't have a subscription service.
[01:27:48]  That camera's not going to do anything for you.
[01:27:50]  Don't worry about that.
[01:27:52]  But he decides for maybe counter forensic purposes to kind of throw off the trail.
[01:27:58]  And I'm still trying to adhere to Accumb's razor here.
[01:28:01]  But well, let me take these things anyway, just in case there's something on there.
[01:28:06]  Never knowing that whether he takes them or not, smashes them or whatever the deal is, they still come back with this video that we've seen in the last few, in the last day or so.
[01:28:16]  So again, he may be trying to pretend he's smarter than he is, take these things.
[01:28:21]  I had plenty of bank robbers over the day.
[01:28:23]  I was working in New York City.
[01:28:25]  They take the camera down or they'd insist the manager goes up and removed the film back then, a cassette, and they would take that with them.
[01:28:33]  And usually in that case.
[01:28:34]  But there's no way this guy destroyed the camera, which the sheriff is denying.
[01:28:39]  He's not, he's like, I don't know where you got that.
[01:28:41]  I don't know where that comes from.
[01:28:42]  We're not going to comment on it.
[01:28:43]  So he's not really denying it, but he's like, I have no idea where that came from.
[01:28:47]  We're not going to comment on it.
[01:28:48]  But that's Ashley's reporting.
[01:28:49]  Clearly, he did destroy it because we, every time we've done this with Jake, with me, the camera was working.
[01:28:56]  There's no on-off button.
[01:28:58]  The camera was working when we pulled it out of the holster.
[01:29:01]  And the thing that turned, that stopped the camera from working is you either turn off the Wi-Fi, its battery runs out, meaning the charge that you've given it via a cord has run out, or you've smashed it.
[01:29:12]  So clearly her reporting was right.
[01:29:14]  I mean, basically what we've done here in part is we've, not that it needed rehabilitation, but we've rehabilitated or lended credibility to even more of Ashley Banfield's reporting, all of which we believe has been spot on thus far.
[01:29:29]  And of course, the big Magilla of her news scoops was that as of Tuesday of last week, the brother-in-law may be the prime suspect.
[01:29:40]  And that is something we don't know whether it's true.
[01:29:42]  It's obviously something we need to consider, especially given the recurring presence of law enforcement around Annie and Tomas's home.
[01:29:52]  And the fact that he completely disappeared.
[01:29:56]  We haven't seen him at all.
[01:29:58]  And I mean, we haven't seen the other spouses either.
[01:30:00]  I mean, Savannah's married.
[01:30:01]  We haven't seen her husband.
[01:30:02]  I don't know about her brother, Cameron, whether he's married.
[01:30:04]  So in fairness to him, but he's a local and obviously he's under scrutiny.
[01:30:08]  So, you know, you might you might let yourself be seen just to show like we're still together.
[01:30:12]  The family stands by me.
[01:30:14]  That hasn't happened.
[01:30:16]  And, you know, on top of that, we're, we're now seeing search after search after search after search in his backyard and of his neighbors re-questioning of his neighbors with the video images of this perp.
[01:30:30]  Do you know him?
[01:30:30]  Do you know him?
[01:30:31]  Do you know?
[01:30:32]  And the obvious implication is like, has he been here working on your house or as a guest of the two people here?
[01:30:38]  I mean, no one wants to say that.
[01:30:39]  And I don't want to wrongfully impugn the guy either, but it's irresponsible not to consider this as one of the avenues that the police are looking into.
[01:30:47]  That they would be considering the family is not a mystery.
[01:30:50]  And frankly, it's not controversial.
[01:30:52]  Obviously, they are considering that, or they'd be idiots.
[01:30:55]  It has to be one of the things that they're looking into, and thus is one of the things we consider too while maintaining a presumption of innocence and the basic premise that the family seems to still, as far as we know, be embracing him and not suspecting him.
[01:31:08]  All right, I'm going to leave it there for one second.
[01:31:10]  We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and be joined, in addition to you guys, by two profilers who have real thoughts on what the motives here may be.

=== Eyeliner and Firearm Sourcing (11:35) ===

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[01:32:20]  Let's see if you're next, getting out of pain.
[01:32:26]  Fitz Maureen are still with me and joining me now as well, Will Geddes.
[01:32:30]  Will is an elite bodyguard who has over 30 years of experience as a security expert.
[01:32:34]  He consults with U.S. law enforcement and federal government agencies, and he now runs a firm called International Corporate Protection.
[01:32:41]  Also with me, James Hamilton.
[01:32:43]  He is a former FBI supervisory special agent and creator of the FBI's Close Protection School, which is a specialized training program designed for agents to protect high-level officials.
[01:32:56]  He now runs his own security firm called Hamilton Security Group.
[01:32:59]  Will, James, welcome to you both.
[01:33:01]  We just did a little experiment here, which is kind of interesting because what the FBI is telling us is that that ring camera, Nest, it's the Nest, went offline at 1:47 a.m.
[01:33:16]  And what we have seen thanks to our own experiment is pulling the camera off of its base does not turn it offline.
[01:33:25]  If it runs out of the charge, it would go offline, but presumably that didn't happen just as the bad guy arrived.
[01:33:33]  Disconnecting it from Wi-Fi could show you that it's offline, but we have no reason to believe he cut some sort of a Wi-Fi line.
[01:33:40]  And what happened in our experiment was it did not disconnect until we brought, literally, brought the hammer down on it.
[01:33:47]  And that is when it disconnected.
[01:33:49]  And so, if that is true, in fact, we have the video now, they've turned it.
[01:33:52]  Here it is.
[01:33:52]  Here's a video from the camera of me bringing the hammer down on it.
[01:33:57]  I guess, okay, I'm getting ready.
[01:33:59]  I'm putting my glasses on.
[01:34:01]  And this is the little okay.
[01:34:04]  There it is.
[01:34:05]  That's me hammering it.
[01:34:06]  Oh, hold on.
[01:34:08]  And before I've actually touched it, before I've actually touched it, it's going to go offline.
[01:34:13]  And so it goes offline actually like a second before it's all destroyed.
[01:34:18]  But the point is at 1:47, now it's offline.
[01:34:23]  At 1:47 a.m., he must have destroyed it.
[01:34:26]  So all this stuff is happening, we think, before 1:47 a.m., moving the timeline back a little bit, because let's not forget this video doesn't show him succeeding in destroying it.
[01:34:36]  It shows him putting vegetation in front of it.
[01:34:38]  So like there was a longer time there.
[01:34:41]  And I don't know, you know, how much longer he was standing there in front of the Guthrie home with his ski mask on and his gun showing to everybody that, you know, it took him to finally get the camera disconnected.
[01:34:55]  And still 10 minutes later or so, it caught an image, or I think it was at 2.12, it caught an image of a body.
[01:35:01]  Okay, let me ask you guys, because you're the experts at like the profile of who's doing bad acts, who's doing things like this.
[01:35:10]  And I'll start with you on it, Jim.
[01:35:13]  We haven't talked a lot about it, but the fact that Savannah Guthrie is a national celebrity, I mean, I don't, news people don't like to be called celebrities, but she is, is something that's probably getting too little play as we consider motivations here.
[01:35:27]  Your thoughts?
[01:35:28]  Is that for Jim Fitzgerald or James Hamilton?
[01:35:31]  Yeah, that's for James, James Hamilton.
[01:35:34]  Fitzgerald's Fitz now.
[01:35:36]  We know him well.
[01:35:37]  So he's Fitz.
[01:35:37]  Gotcha.
[01:35:38]  Thanks for that.
[01:35:39]  Yeah.
[01:35:40]  Clearly, anyone in the public eye is going to get some scrutiny and also get things like this.
[01:35:46]  So I wouldn't put it past it.
[01:35:48]  Certainly there's a relationship that the investigators are looking at.
[01:35:53]  And for people like you, people are in the public eye.
[01:35:56]  Certainly there's going to need to be some type of security protocols and training and just a general awareness that is really above the general person because you are related to a high visibility type of individual.
[01:36:11]  And that certainly can't be discounted.
[01:36:14]  What do you think the likelihood is, Will, that Savannah's public figure status is a motivation here in some way?
[01:36:23]  I think it's highly likely, Megan.
[01:36:26]  I've dealt with a number of cases where certainly in terms of either some sort of fixation or certainly targeting this was a targeted attack.
[01:36:34]  And what will generally happen if it is a kidnapping and it turns out to be a kidnapping will be to go through the path of least resistance.
[01:36:42]  And that is to target a family member who won't necessarily have the same level or status of security around them, whether that be in their home or whether they have any specific security that's assigned to them by their company or by their organization.
[01:36:56]  So this was a targeted attack.
[01:36:58]  To target children is quite often the case, but it can be elderly family members.
[01:37:04]  So, you know, my gut at the moment is this is directly connected, obviously, to Savannah.
[01:37:10]  And I think this ultimately, it wasn't a burglary, that's for sure.
[01:37:14]  And certainly in terms of the condition of Nancy, that's obviously very going to be very difficult to tell until such time as a proof of life in some shape or form is delivered.
[01:37:24]  So when you thought that, Will, you thought it's related to Savannah.
[01:37:30]  How did seeing the pictures yesterday influence your opinion, if at all?
[01:37:34]  Well, certainly I've been watching, as James, obviously, the lead up on what you guys have been covering before we came and joined you.
[01:37:42]  And I would say they came very ill-prepared.
[01:37:45]  They're not entirely professional.
[01:37:47]  I've seen highly professional groups.
[01:37:49]  There would have been no No doubt, some advanced reconnaissance, but not sophisticated enough to be able to determine how to remove a ring doorbell.
[01:37:57]  And certainly a good organized professional kidnappers will look at all aspects of denying electricity, denying power, and then obviously considering anything that is remotely powered like a ring doorbell.
[01:38:11]  So, you know, I looked at them, looked at the position like you guys were talking about, the position of his firearm overtly, not covertly, in an abdomen sort of concealed carry way.
[01:38:22]  And in terms of obviously his outfit, what he was wearing, there were a lot of identifiers on there, which I think the law enforcement agencies and obviously the federal agencies will be following up on and chasing, obviously, to try and determine where he may have sourced these items.
[01:38:38]  And how about you, James?
[01:38:40]  What do you think?
[01:38:41]  Well, I enjoyed listening to you all earlier.
[01:38:43]  And just a couple of things.
[01:38:45]  I'm going to go out on a little bit of a limb here.
[01:38:46]  I'm not so convinced this is a guy.
[01:38:49]  Until I can have absolute proof that this is a male, the eyes, the eyes seem like eyeliner.
[01:38:56]  I wouldn't put it past being a woman.
[01:38:57]  It does look like he's wearing eyeliner.
[01:38:59]  Thank you for saying that.
[01:39:00]  It does look like he's wearing eyeliner in the one shot.
[01:39:04]  So I'm not going to go there.
[01:39:06]  I will say a friend of ours, James Gaglione, has been on site there and he said how dark it is, that area.
[01:39:13]  And to me, that would certainly explain this silly carrying of the firearm.
[01:39:17]  Well, if he was getting, like Fitz was saying, if he's getting out of a car and walking up to the house, then putting it in a stupid way that he's carrying it or the person's carrying the firearm, I don't see the problem with that one because no one's going to see it.
[01:39:30]  It's so dark there.
[01:39:31]  No one's going to see the stupid carry of the firearm.
[01:39:35]  So, and lastly, I would just say that we can, yeah, he looks, he or she looks stupid and looks strange and doing some strange things, but let's not discount the success here.
[01:39:46]  It has been 10 days.
[01:39:48]  We have not heard a word.
[01:39:50]  We are no closer to catching this person and they've been on the run now for 10 days.
[01:39:55]  And the FBI is the best in the business and they haven't caught him.
[01:39:58]  So he's not completely stupid.
[01:39:59]  And, you know, I. James, let me ask you a follow-up.
[01:40:03]  Good point.
[01:40:04]  You were at the FBI for almost 25 years, I think.
[01:40:09]  You worked kidnappings.
[01:40:10]  Like, is this, does this look like a professional kidnapping?
[01:40:13]  Like, is kidnapping even common?
[01:40:16]  No, it's extremely rare.
[01:40:18]  And, you know, I was saying earlier to somebody in 23 years in law enforcement, I think I worked two of them.
[01:40:23]  And so unless you're in New York or LA in the hotbed of these things, it doesn't happen a lot.
[01:40:28]  And what you see frequently is they happen in these places like we're seeing here.
[01:40:33]  And the police don't have a lot of experience working these types of cases.
[01:40:36]  They're very rare.
[01:40:37]  Why?
[01:40:38]  Because somebody, it's a lot easier to kill somebody than to kidnap them.
[01:40:43]  And why?
[01:40:43]  Because something's going to, you know, there's usually some type of a struggle.
[01:40:47]  There's some type of injury.
[01:40:49]  We saw it with Sydney Rezzo with Exxon.
[01:40:51]  We're seeing it now.
[01:40:52]  You know, in this case, there's her blood on the porch.
[01:40:55]  It's very difficult to kidnap somebody and they're just very rarely done.
[01:40:58]  The thing I don't like about this case is we have not had any proof of life.
[01:41:02]  Communications through a TMZ, the kidnappings I've been involved in, go right to the family.
[01:41:06]  They go to where the money is.
[01:41:08]  They want to get the money.
[01:41:09]  That's why they did the kidnapping.
[01:41:11]  This whole thing has been very strange to me as I'm looking at it from an outsider.
[01:41:16]  Well, how in their defense, like, is it, sorry, is it 20?
[01:41:20]  Yeah, we're 90 hard to break and then we'll come back.
[01:41:22]  But it's not going to be easy to get Savannah Guthrie's phone number.
[01:41:26]  You know, like, how, how do the kidnappers normally get the contact information of the family?
[01:41:31]  Yeah.
[01:41:31]  Well, the same way they got her mother, you know, they can contact the family.
[01:41:35]  The family will, you know, it's pretty well known.
[01:41:37]  You contact the police and police are in contact with the family.
[01:41:40]  You contact the FBI and they'll put you in touch.
[01:41:43]  I mean, that's not that difficult to go through Levin at TMZ.
[01:41:46]  That's just bizarre to me.
[01:41:48]  Why would you do that?
[01:41:50]  Why would you do that?
[01:41:51]  I mean, is it for attention because you're enjoying your story in the news?
[01:41:56]  I mean, I have seen occasions, maybe, where a third party will be utilized.
[01:42:01]  I mean, but it does, it is very counterintuitive to the fact that one of the biggest enemies to a kidnap, if this is indeed a kidnapping, is media publicity.
[01:42:11]  And the greater the publicity that takes place, and I've worked a couple of cases where because it garnished so much media attention, it actually didn't end in a very positive outcome, obviously, for the hostage.
[01:42:23]  So I would agree with James, TMZ is an interesting choice, but certainly in terms of because normally you hear, like, this is this, this may be just movie stuff.
[01:42:32]  And forgive me for interrupting it.
[01:42:33]  We're going to continue this, though, as we take a break.
[01:42:35]  But normally you hear them saying, don't involve the police and don't involve anybody and keep it on the down low.
[01:42:40]  They want to keep it under the radar, not here.
[01:42:43]  We're right back.
[01:42:43]  Quick break.
[01:42:44]  Don't go away.
[01:42:45]  You know, Pure Talk's favorite holiday?
[01:42:47]  It's President's Day because they believe wireless service should cost you only a couple of presidents, just a Jackson and a Lincoln, to be exact.

=== Extensive Searching for Bodies (15:07) ===

[01:42:56]  For just $25 a month, Pure Talk gives you unlimited talk, text, and plenty of data.
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[01:43:04]  They'd rather celebrate Benjamin Franklin Day so they can charge your family hundreds every month.
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[01:44:03]  Hi, it's Eric.
[01:44:04]  I got a conversation about taking a family-middag to under 200 lamp when I'm on the way home.
[01:44:08]  Is it going to happen?
[01:44:09]  We're two grown-ups and two children.
[01:44:10]  So I wonder if this is just a test.
[01:44:13]  The test is you, Eric.
[01:44:14]  You drive to Rema, go to disken with family-middag to under 200-lappen, and plukker med deg alt du trenger til taco med kyllingsnader til bare 168 kroner.
[01:44:23]  Enkel, rask og god middag på samme sted, alltid under 200 kroner.
[01:44:27]  For det enkle er ofte det beste.
[01:44:29]  Rema 1000, alltid lave priser.
[01:44:46]  This morning, numerous FBI agents are conducting an extensive search along multiple roadways in the Catalina Foothills area related to the Nancy Guthrie investigation, asking the media to follow all traffic laws and so on.
[01:44:59]  So that's how they describe it.
[01:45:00]  They say extensive search along multiple roadways in the Catalina foothills area.
[01:45:05]  We're told by producers on site that they are now today focused on the area where Nancy Guthrie lived.
[01:45:13]  Yesterday was where Annie Guthrie and Tomas, her husband, lived, describing it as quote, extensive searches.
[01:45:22]  So covering both locations bit by bit and over and over and over again.
[01:45:31]  I mean, can we just talk about what you guys think that means?
[01:45:33]  Like, haven't they found all the physical clues by now that are there to find?
[01:45:40]  It's like virtually every day they're out there.
[01:45:42]  You're shaking your head.
[01:45:43]  No, Maureen.
[01:45:44]  Why?
[01:45:45]  Because being on the evidence response team and also being part of, you know, being a case agent involved in a lot of these cases, especially when you open a tip line.
[01:45:55]  So as soon as they offered that $50,000 reward, that just opened the floodgates that as everyone here, certainly those of us in the bureau can attest to.
[01:46:04]  And when they open those floodgates, you're going to get a whole bunch of other tips.
[01:46:07]  For example, you're going to get phone calls saying, hey, on the day after she disappeared or late that night, I was driving by a highway, whatever, and right here at the mile marker 32, I saw a car pulled over and parked or whatever.
[01:46:22]  Then you've got all the technical stuff going on in the background that we talked about with the geofencing and everything.
[01:46:28]  And if they opened it up and looked at the hours afterwards and such and such, they'll notice that two devices were stopped on the side of the road, someplace or the other.
[01:46:40]  So even they're checking all these things out as they come in and as they're developing throughout the investigation.
[01:46:48]  It's very fluid and it's very intensive.
[01:46:55]  James Hamilton, is it, what do we glean from the fact that they keep going back to Annie and Tomas's home and neighborhood?
[01:47:04]  Nancy had eaten dinner with them that night, allegedly played games and was dropped off back at her house, which is, I'm told, four miles or 10 minutes away.
[01:47:15]  So why, I mean, I don't want to jump to conclusions about that couple, but that is not, we're told, the crime scene.
[01:47:24]  So why are they so obsessed with canvassing that neighborhood and that backyard?
[01:47:28]  Yeah, I don't think you're jumping to conclusions at all.
[01:47:31]  You always start with who saw the victim last.
[01:47:33]  And in this case, that's who saw Miss Guthrie last.
[01:47:37]  So that makes complete sense that they're going to run that to ground and continue to look at that story.
[01:47:42]  And don't forget, kidnappings are, like we were saying earlier, they're very, very difficult.
[01:47:47]  And so this indication there's more searching going on.
[01:47:51]  This is a very desolate area.
[01:47:52]  This isn't Manhattan.
[01:47:53]  It's possible there's a place to put a body in a lot of different places.
[01:47:57]  And remember, this kidnapping, obviously there was some violence and we know there's a heart issue.
[01:48:02]  So either the violence could have caused some, you know, God forbid she died during the kidnapping or shortly thereafter, or her heart, God forbid, stopped.
[01:48:10]  And now this kidnapper is stuck with this dead body.
[01:48:12]  What's he going to do?
[01:48:13]  Right.
[01:48:13]  He's not going to get any money for it.
[01:48:15]  If that was his intent, was to kidnap to get the money.
[01:48:17]  Now, what are you going to do?
[01:48:18]  Well, you know, maybe you dump it and then you just drive away.
[01:48:22]  And so there's going to be, like Maureen was saying, people giving tips saying, hey, I saw this.
[01:48:27]  You know, no one's talked about this white van.
[01:48:28]  That's a whole good lead.
[01:48:29]  No one seemed to want to talk about it.
[01:48:31]  I'd love to talk about it.
[01:48:32]  But, you know, that's what you're seeing here.
[01:48:35]  I'm shocked that there's a very specialized unit of dogs that the FBI has that can track a lot of things.
[01:48:41]  I'm surprised they haven't been deployed.
[01:48:43]  Maybe they have.
[01:48:44]  But things like that, I would have been expected to see by now.
[01:48:49]  Will, you're shaking your head yes.
[01:48:50]  Yeah, I mean, a couple of things I'd probably pick up on, Megan, from your comments about the interest in family members or close family members.
[01:48:59]  Well, the first thing that I got taught when I first learned kidnap and ransom negotiation was the 70% rule.
[01:49:08]  And it still prevails to this day.
[01:49:09]  And that is that in most kidnappings, if this is indeed a kidnapping, in 70% of cases, there will be someone connected to the victim that will be working in close proximity or will be a family member.
[01:49:23]  And I think through the process of obviously elimination, the feds are going to have to look very much at the family very, very closely to see whether they are a viable prospect in terms of being suspects or whether they can be discounted from their inquiries.
[01:49:39]  And just to cover on a point that James made, I've negotiated on the return of a dead body.
[01:49:45]  So again, depending on who the group is, I agree with James that yes, if he does have the frail Nancy on his hands and she passes away, they may, he may, or they may potentially discard the body.
[01:49:59]  But if there's a slightly more professional element behind it, they may still continue to negotiate against that for the return of it.
[01:50:07]  I think the key issue here really is the proof of life or lack thereof of.
[01:50:13]  Go ahead, Fitz.
[01:50:13]  I could see you want to get in.
[01:50:14]  Yeah.
[01:50:15]  And historically speaking, everything that's being said here in the last few minutes is accurate.
[01:50:20]  The last known, and I'll touch on a few subjects, and I'm going to be corrected here, but the last known for-profit kidnapping of which we are aware took place in the outskirts of Oslo, Norway.
[01:50:32]  And the media was not involved or told about that for weeks after it happened.
[01:50:37]  Kidnapping note was left at the table.
[01:50:39]  She's missing.
[01:50:40]  Body never recovered.
[01:50:41]  Husband was arrested, then released thereafter.
[01:50:44]  We brought up Sydney Riso.
[01:50:45]  I did early last week, the Exxon executive.
[01:50:48]  He died four days into his captivity.
[01:50:50]  Those kidnappers kept it up for 50 plus days after that, trying to get the money.
[01:50:56]  Husband and wife team eventually arrested.
[01:50:58]  We talked about some of that last week.
[01:51:00]  And to go back to the search aspects of it, there's never a wrong search or a bad search.
[01:51:05]  I mean, as long as it's legal with consent, things we've all discussed already so far.
[01:51:09]  And there's nothing wrong with re-interviewing, re-re-re-interviewing multiple times people as new information comes up.
[01:51:16]  So to me, it doesn't necessarily put any more of a suspicion on family members when agents are going back.
[01:51:23]  The other thing I'll throw out there, I haven't heard this mentioned at all by anyone in the media.
[01:51:28]  And I've been to Phoenix a few times.
[01:51:30]  I'm not sure Tucson.
[01:51:32]  I know it's not a lake-filled or pond-filled area, but I'm sure there are reservoirs or retaining ponds, pools, whatever they call them.
[01:51:40]  I've heard nothing about any dive teams going into them anywhere along the way.
[01:51:44]  And maybe someone here has.
[01:51:46]  But that's something that should also be considered.
[01:51:48]  Again, I'm not looking for Mrs. Guthrie's here necessarily, but certainly tools, elements of the crime, anywhere along any sort of egress.
[01:51:57]  That's something they may want to consider if they haven't already.
[01:52:01]  We predicted this and now it hits via TMZ that the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Department are homing in on the outfit, the presumed kidnapper war.
[01:52:09]  As he approached the front door, they are on the hunt for who bought the items.
[01:52:13]  Law enforcement sources involved in the investigation tell TMZ.
[01:52:16]  They singled out three items in particular, those gloves, Maureen, the backpack, and the gun visible on the Nest video.
[01:52:26]  We're told authorities are contacting manufacturers and retailers to figure out who may have purchased the items, the gloves, the backpack, and the gun.
[01:52:35]  What's interesting to me is like, maybe not the gloves, like the backpack and the gun, that's something guns are big in America and they're big in the Southwest.
[01:52:45]  It's not unusual to find somebody out there with a gun.
[01:52:48]  And it's not unusual to find anybody with a backpack.
[01:52:51]  A face mask that, you know, you wear that where I grew up in Syracuse, New York.
[01:52:56]  That's everyone's got one.
[01:52:58]  But in Tucson?
[01:52:59]  Yeah.
[01:53:01]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:53:02]  You can go down to get your mail if you want to have your face when you get back inside.
[01:53:05]  But this, that to me seems very suspicious.
[01:53:09]  In any event, they, of course, are going to do that because we saw in Kohlberger, as clever as he was in some ways, he bought that damn K-bar knife on Amazon, on Amazon.
[01:53:21]  So even someone named Brian Kohlberger was brilliant in some ways, but like made such elemental mistakes.
[01:53:30]  So I get they're probably checking the Amazon histories of all the family and maybe contractors who show up at the house, right?
[01:53:39]  Like, and then beyond that, you got to go the other end of the transaction, the sellers.
[01:53:43]  That you can't just go to Amazon and say, who bought a face mask?
[01:53:46]  Can you?
[01:53:46]  I don't, I don't know if you can, but you definitely can go to the retail stores and say, do you sell this backpack?
[01:53:52]  Look at that.
[01:53:52]  And it was very distinctive looking.
[01:53:53]  I still haven't figured out whether those are lights on his shoulder straps or reflective patches, you know, but it's a very distinctive backpack and we have both the front and the back of it pictured.
[01:54:03]  Very helpful, no?
[01:54:05]  Very helpful.
[01:54:05]  Very helpful.
[01:54:06]  I think, I think it's that you've highlighted the key areas as far as I'm concerned, which are the most identifiable in trying to obviously trace the viron.
[01:54:14]  I agree.
[01:54:15]  I think even in terms of the ski mask, I think that that could be a lost leader in trying to follow inquiries on that.
[01:54:21]  It would be very difficult.
[01:54:22]  And who knows?
[01:54:23]  Maybe he knitted it or a family member knitted it.
[01:54:26]  I mean, you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's been bought from a retail store.
[01:54:31]  But I think the backpack, certainly, the trousers, certainly the jacket, certainly.
[01:54:35]  Those are the three areas I'd be most concentrating on.
[01:54:39]  One of our audience members is pointing out, can we play the video where he realizes that he can't, he's got to turn around.
[01:54:44]  He's got to go back out and get the vegetation and where he bends down.
[01:54:47]  And she raised something that I actually has been gnawing at me too.
[01:54:51]  Is there something wrong with this guy's leg or knee?
[01:54:54]  Because watch, like when he turns around and goes back out there, hold on.
[01:54:59]  He's trying to do his little tap-tap thing to get the Nest camera off, which does not work.
[01:55:05]  Stand by.
[01:55:05]  Okay, now he's backing up.
[01:55:07]  Okay, so like where he bends over there, he doesn't look very facile.
[01:55:11]  He doesn't look very limber.
[01:55:13]  And when he bends over there, he doesn't look like the most limber person either.
[01:55:18]  Just made me wonder, I'm really going out on a limb here, but like the calmness with which he executed the crime and maybe an injury.
[01:55:29]  Could you possibly be looking for somebody, you know, former law enforcement?
[01:55:33]  That's who committed that Exxon kidnapping, former law enforcement.
[01:55:37]  Or was he former Jim?
[01:55:39]  Or was he current?
[01:55:40]  Anyway, he was definitely law enforcement.
[01:55:41]  Former and former Exxon Security, which of course was Exxon Security vice president who was kidnapped.
[01:55:47]  Okay.
[01:55:48]  I don't know.
[01:55:49]  I guess you guys, I think, might conclude based on what you told me yesterday, Maureen and Fitz, that probably not former law enforcement, given the way he's holding that gun.
[01:55:58]  That doesn't, right?
[01:55:59]  And so then maybe not former military either.
[01:56:02]  But he's altering the way he walks when he approaches the front porch and the camera, because, you know, people can say, oh, he, he looks surprised that there's a camera, but virtually what we know is how he's dressed.
[01:56:20]  He's dressed to conceal his identity.
[01:56:24]  He has a set of gloves under the nitrule gloves.
[01:56:27]  He may have leggings on under those pants to make him look a little bit heavier than he is in or her, which I don't know.
[01:56:35]  That facial hair looks pretty legit, but what do I know?
[01:56:40]  So I think it's an altered gait just on the off chance that someone gets some video off this thing or if he can't destroy the camera right away or whatever his plan was, because he definitely 100% is altering the way he walks and his stance as he approaches that camera.
[01:56:59]  Would you guys agree with that?
[01:57:00]  It doesn't look natural.
[01:57:01]  No.
[01:57:02]  But most likely for utilitarian purposes, as opposed to a nagging injury of some sort, we can't rule it out, of course, but he currently has his head down and he has a big backpack going.
[01:57:13]  We don't know how heavy that thing is and what's in there, of course.
[01:57:17]  So his gait is going to be a little bit, you know, sort of off in that regard.
[01:57:21]  He may have had some practice runs.
[01:57:22]  Let's not forget, too, all the things they're looking for.
[01:57:24]  I'm not sure if they sell flashlights that strictly are designed for the mouth, that you push the button, you know, and you squeeze it somehow and the light goes on.
[01:57:34]  That's something else I'm hoping.
[01:57:35]  There can't be too many people that buy those things within 100 miles of Tucson.
[01:57:40]  So I'm hoping that is something they focus on.
[01:57:43]  It could be a clue like that that really helps.
[01:57:45]  There were some astute viewers who wrote in about that, what looks like a mouth flashlight of some kind.
[01:57:51]  It is saying that you would have to remove from your mouth with your gloves.
[01:57:58]  And there could be a transfer of your saliva onto the exterior of your gloves.

=== Zodiac Case Parallels (15:15) ===

[01:58:04]  And those gloves then had to touch things in Nancy's home.
[01:58:06]  So like, that's actually somewhat promising.
[01:58:10]  This guy probably does have his own saliva remnants on those gloves and definitely used the gloved hands to go into the home and hurt Nancy and get Nancy.
[01:58:18]  And I'm sure he touched something.
[01:58:19]  Go ahead.
[01:58:20]  There's one thing I wanted to say about that transfer because that's a very good point.
[01:58:23]  That is a mouth flashlight and you turn it off and on by biting on it.
[01:58:28]  A lot of apparently airline mechanics and stuff like that or people that deal with wires and stuff, they'll use it so that their hands can remain free while they do their work.
[01:58:39]  And it's pretty much the same technology as those headlamp ones that you get.
[01:58:44]  But with regard to the gloves, a lot of people always think that I'm wearing gloves, my DNA can't get anywhere, but everyone underestimates the number of times they touch their face, no matter what.
[01:58:57]  Like, you know, I mean, just going like this, and now you touch something.
[01:59:02]  So that's going to be the DNA stuff.
[01:59:05]  And the way you find that sometimes, like even if we look at the, when they took Nancy's car out of the garage, it could have been something as simple as when they went back in there and they looked at the, they turned off the lights and they turned on their flashlights.
[01:59:20]  I used flashlights extensively and you could see that there's a area where the dust has been swiped away.
[01:59:26]  That's an area you want to look at and you want to test.
[01:59:29]  You're not certainly not going to test the entire vehicle as a general rule.
[01:59:33]  But if there's an area like that where the dust is disturbed, that's where it got swiped and that's where the transfer potentially could have occurred.
[01:59:42]  Let me ask you, Will and James, what you think because we ran this by our other panelists yesterday.
[01:59:47]  There's one photo in the series that's been released by Kash Patel that shows, we think, this same abductor farther back without the backpack.
[01:59:59]  And you can't see his face at all.
[02:00:01]  It's either because the camera is too pixelated, that's what we were speculating yesterday, or maybe he's turned it around entirely.
[02:00:09]  But here's the shot.
[02:00:10]  You cannot see any sort of a backpack whatsoever.
[02:00:13]  I don't think you can see the gun.
[02:00:16]  We zoomed in on it yesterday.
[02:00:18]  And you cannot see the holes for the eyes or the mouth.
[02:00:23]  And this too was released to us by the FBI.
[02:00:25]  Now, I can go with maybe pixelation too far away on the face mask, I guess, but no backpack?
[02:00:32]  The backpack?
[02:00:33]  There was all this reflective stuff and the lights or whatever's on it.
[02:00:36]  Like, what do you think we're seeing there?
[02:00:39]  I mean, just jumping in there, James, if you don't mind, there's a couple of quick questions, Megan.
[02:00:44]  Were you given actually unedited footage, which ran continually, or are these just snapshots which were provided by the Bureau?
[02:00:53]  So, yes, again, they may not necessarily be consecutive.
[02:00:56]  There may have been an initial probe.
[02:00:58]  Sometimes they will make an initial approach to see, is there anybody else in the house?
[02:01:03]  Is it undisturbed?
[02:01:04]  Is there just one person there?
[02:01:05]  It's quiet.
[02:01:06]  Everyone's gone to bed.
[02:01:08]  So, you know, he may have returned or she may have returned to go and get that backpack from their vehicle and then make that actual approach.
[02:01:16]  So it could have been an initial probe.
[02:01:18]  But the thing that's certainly before I pass to James, the thing that really confuses me, and I'm sure I'd love to hear the opinions of the others, is there are so many contradictions in this whole method of approach.
[02:01:31]  He's using a torch, which has to be activated by the mouth rather than a head torch.
[02:01:35]  And it's not a question of him being necessarily seen by anybody with a head torch because he's carrying his weapon obviously outside of his waistband.
[02:01:44]  So, and again, the gloves, the mask, the ill-preparedness for actually removing the ring doorbell.
[02:01:52]  There are so many contradictions here from what could have been professional to what's somewhat of a clown show and an amateur.
[02:02:00]  Yes, totally.
[02:02:01]  Go ahead, James.
[02:02:02]  Yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of this.
[02:02:04]  I was looking at the picture to see if the shoes were the same to make sure we've got, you know, the same person and maybe.
[02:02:10]  A lot of our online sleuths watching us on YouTube say the shoes look different to them, that the shoes from, you know, faceless man look different from the shoes.
[02:02:18]  But overall, I would say it looks very similar to the guy who we know approached the door.
[02:02:23]  Yeah, when we're doing like surveillance training, we're always taught, you know, shoes, watches, and glasses, people don't usually change those.
[02:02:30]  And so I always kind of look there first.
[02:02:32]  And this person's shoes are different.
[02:02:34]  So is it two people?
[02:02:35]  I don't know.
[02:02:36]  It might be the same person.
[02:02:37]  They're wearing the same outfit.
[02:02:39]  Could be two.
[02:02:41]  The eye holes missing is odd.
[02:02:43]  But I think I agree with Will.
[02:02:46]  It's quite possible.
[02:02:47]  This is the early.
[02:02:48]  They came up, approached, see what they're dealing with.
[02:02:51]  Then they come back with the backpack and then they do this, you know, silliness with the flowers to do the obfuscation of the camera.
[02:02:59]  But for me, this looks like a probing in the beginning before the actual act.
[02:03:04]  You know, that's what I'm seeing.
[02:03:06]  If you guys looked at Twitter yesterday at all, after all this came out, you definitely saw AI images of this guy.
[02:03:12]  I mean, I saw them too.
[02:03:13]  They're very kind of delicious to look at because it's like, aha, the answer.
[02:03:17]  But, you know, we would never show them in the air because it's not responsible and it's not real.
[02:03:21]  But could it be?
[02:03:23]  Like, is there some AI technology?
[02:03:24]  Did you want to speak to it, Fitz?
[02:03:26]  Like, can AI be of help in turning these images into something closer to a picture of the guy?
[02:03:34]  And this is one of the categories we can speculate a lot here among the five of us.
[02:03:37]  And everyone has a valid opinion here.
[02:03:40]  But as we well know, the FBI has not released everything.
[02:03:44]  I'm not even sure what the count is of what's out there, a few videos, a few still shots.
[02:03:48]  So they have everything, and they have the best experts and the best technology in the world to enhance what we're looking at and also what hasn't been released yet.
[02:03:58]  And they're trying to put that information together.
[02:04:00]  Whether there is scenes of the person without the backpack and then other ones with them, they would know that by their timeline.
[02:04:07]  We don't have these in any sort of chronological order of which we are aware.
[02:04:12]  The only thing I want to add in here real quick, I tried to get in earlier, and I think I mentioned it very quickly yesterday, is when I started on the Unabomb Task Force, there was a sub-unit, a sub-squad that thought, you know, the Zodiac killer was now the Unabomber.
[02:04:27]  One of my first rendered opinions as a new profiler there.
[02:04:30]  No, not connected, not connected at all.
[02:04:32]  But I've always had a fascination of the Zodiac case.
[02:04:34]  I did not work it at all.
[02:04:36]  Well, I wonder if this guy is some kind of a zodiac aficionado in that how he dresses, even how he carries the gun.
[02:04:43]  There are pictures of Zodiac sketches, I should say, not pictures, composite type sketches from surviving victims, in which he is sort of armed up with a hoodie such as that he has some kind of a symbol on the front, maybe the Zodiac symbol, and he carries guns and other weapons on the side of him, some kind of a backpack, I believe.
[02:05:02]  Over the years, I've seen it.
[02:05:03]  So again, this may or may not solve the case.
[02:05:06]  But if there's anyone out there, that's interesting, though.
[02:05:09]  I can't get all my serial killers straight, but was Zodiac, what was his favorite, like what was his MO?
[02:05:16]  Who was he?
[02:05:17]  Sure, late 60s, San Francisco area, the Bay Area.
[02:05:20]  He would find couples and the individual woman pull cards over and brutally killed them and raped them, at least some of them.
[02:05:29]  And he was always dressed head to toe in a bizarre, you know, hoodie or a mask, I should say, with just holes in it with a symbol on at least one of the descriptions.
[02:05:39]  Other witnesses, well, there were other witnesses that didn't survive.
[02:05:43]  So they're victims, of course.
[02:05:45]  And so, and of course, if anyone cuts and edits what we're talking about here, I'm not saying this is the Zodiac killer any way, straight, shape, or form.
[02:05:54]  But is it someone there's a lot of people out there?
[02:05:55]  I get emails all the time that, hey, what do you think about this part of the Zodiac case?
[02:06:01]  And I'll ignore them.
[02:06:02]  I may put a few responses out there.
[02:06:05]  I just can't rule out that this guy has some sort of an interest in that.
[02:06:07]  And maybe that's how he could have set himself up, hanging the gun the way he did.
[02:06:11]  There's at least one.
[02:06:12]  My team found the sketch.
[02:06:13]  There's at least one picture of him, obviously a hood.
[02:06:16]  Incredibly.
[02:06:17]  And there's other pictures or descriptions where there was guns at the side, big knives, et cetera.
[02:06:23]  And he was ready to go.
[02:06:24]  And I thought even some kind of a backpack, at least a description.
[02:06:27]  And it's just something to keep in mind that this guy may have had some interest.
[02:06:32]  So again, all the descriptors we gave early on for behavioral issues with this guy, the description and pre-offense, post-offense.
[02:06:39]  Hey, if the guy happens to have talked about the Zodiac killer in the past or really likes that movie from 2006 or 7, call the FBI.
[02:06:48]  Well, that's a great point.
[02:06:51]  The other case that we've been talking about here and there, and I know, James, you've done lots of work in this field, is the Rebecca Schaefer case.
[02:07:03]  And, you know, she was a celebrity in Los Angeles.
[02:07:06]  She was very young.
[02:07:06]  I think she was 19 years old.
[02:07:08]  She was an aspiring star.
[02:07:09]  She was starring in My Sister Sam underneath Pam Dauber, who was the older sister.
[02:07:14]  And actually, we forgot completely that our pal, Marsha Clark of O.J. Simpson prosecution fame was the prosecutor on this case.
[02:07:23]  But what happened to Rebecca Schaefer in 1991 was she was 21, was a man named Robert Bardo who was obsessed.
[02:07:33]  He was an erotomaniac, wrote her a series of letters.
[02:07:38]  She wrote a generic thank you for your interest card back.
[02:07:42]  Marsha writes in her book, quote, it was enough to make the twisted son of a bitch think they had made some kind of connection.
[02:07:48]  Bardo hired a private investigator who gave him Rebecca's address.
[02:07:53]  He showed up at her apartment with a bag containing copies of his letters to her, a paperback of the catcher in the rye, and her publicity photo and a gun.
[02:08:03]  When he rang her doorbell, Rebecca answered it herself.
[02:08:06]  She shook his hand, but then shut the door on him, which is just, this is right up, Gavin DeBeckers.
[02:08:11]  I know you worked with him for years, James, but we ignore the gift of fear.
[02:08:17]  Like so many women do it.
[02:08:18]  We ignore the gift of fear.
[02:08:19]  She shook his hand and shut the door on him, but she opened it again because he went to a nearby restaurant.
[02:08:26]  He went into a men's restroom to load the last chamber in his handgun, and then he returned to her apartment.
[02:08:32]  When she came to answer the buzzer, he gestured that he wanted to give her something.
[02:08:37]  So she sees him again, the man she was so afraid of.
[02:08:40]  She shut the door on him.
[02:08:41]  And she opened the door and he shot her point blank through the heart.
[02:08:47]  This case, of course, haunts any public figure because it's, you have so little chance of protecting yourself.
[02:08:56]  And I just, as somebody, we all, we all revert to our priors, of course, whenever you're trying to solve something when you're in my role, you guys are smart enough not to do that.
[02:09:04]  But like in news, we revert to our priors a lot.
[02:09:08]  And from the beginning, I have wondered whether this is a Robert Bardo type situation.
[02:09:16]  Somebody possibly obsessed with Savannah.
[02:09:18]  You can't get to her.
[02:09:20]  Like, I know where Savannah lives.
[02:09:22]  You cannot get to her.
[02:09:23]  Thank God.
[02:09:24]  But you can get to the soft target, as Will was saying earlier, James, of her mom.
[02:09:29]  And maybe that's enough for you.
[02:09:33]  Yeah.
[02:09:33]  I mean, that's a road that we go down a lot.
[02:09:36]  I don't know Savannah.
[02:09:38]  I don't know her background with regards to, you know, I'm sure she's got stalkers.
[02:09:42]  I'm sure she's got people who are obsessed with her.
[02:09:45]  Certainly, I hope she's sharing that information, not only her security team sharing it with the FBI, the people who work in this case.
[02:09:51]  There's probably some specific people that they have identified, what we call pursuers.
[02:09:56]  Hopefully they've turned that over to the FBI and hopefully they're looking into those individuals and their whereabouts.
[02:10:01]  And hopefully they have some type of alibi for their wherebeing on where they were on, you know, on the first.
[02:10:07]  But certainly there's a concern there.
[02:10:09]  And that's one of the avenues.
[02:10:11]  The challenge of this case is we've just sitting here for an hour.
[02:10:15]  We've come up with like eight different avenues.
[02:10:17]  And the investigators, they're all pursuing it.
[02:10:20]  And like you were talking about a needle in a haystack with Google or the searches of the area.
[02:10:28]  This is going to continue.
[02:10:29]  Every time we get a phone call, they're going to go down another trail.
[02:10:34]  And certainly you can't discount the people who wanted to get to Savannah, saw she had visible security, and they just moved to a family member who, and don't forget, someone that she clearly had a positive relationship with.
[02:10:46]  Notice it was her mom.
[02:10:47]  They didn't grab the sister.
[02:10:49]  They didn't grab her brother, right?
[02:10:50]  So maybe they saw these, you know, as you're publishing these photos of her and her mother, that looks like a very good relationship.
[02:10:56]  I don't know anything about it, but it looks from the outside like a good, healthy relationship.
[02:11:01]  And maybe these, you know, this crazy guy is like, yeah, I can't get to her, but I sure as hell can go get to the mom.
[02:11:07]  That could definitely, I would never rule something like that out for sure because the Bardo case, you know, and there's so many like that.
[02:11:14]  That's, that's how it happens, that target transference.
[02:11:17]  And you never, you know, you'd never know.
[02:11:20]  Like in the Bardo case, he showed up with his letters.
[02:11:23]  I guess he kept copies of his letters.
[02:11:25]  Then he showed up with those letters, which are meaningful to him.
[02:11:27]  I've told the audience before I had my own, quote, erotomaniac stalker.
[02:11:32]  It was a very serious situation.
[02:11:33]  He wound up going away for 10 years for what he did.
[02:11:37]  And one of the things he did was he left letters for me all around Washington, D.C., like in National Cathedral and other, the CIA, like stacks of letters for me, which then he would contact me and say, like, I hid the letters for you.
[02:11:52]  Like, this is where you should find them.
[02:11:53]  Stuff like that, which is very bizarre.
[02:11:56]  But this is communication that I was allegedly, quote, receiving from him that I had no idea about.
[02:12:01]  And so if this were happening to Savannah, she might not even know.
[02:12:04]  I do know for a fact she's had at least one serious stalker.
[02:12:09]  And I just think like, you know, we have to be open-minded to that because when I see this guy, I don't think he's a cartel member.
[02:12:18]  He doesn't project competent or vicious or efficient enough for that.
[02:12:22]  He doesn't look like a professional hitman.
[02:12:25]  He doesn't look military to me.
[02:12:27]  But if you ask me, could it be the erotomaniac lane?
[02:12:32]  Yes.
[02:12:33]  That yes.
[02:12:34]  And also, I'm not going to lie, if you ask me, could it be murder for hire type of loser that, you know, you see in some of these cases?
[02:12:43]  Yes.
[02:12:43]  Right.
[02:12:43]  Like murder for hire guys are not James Bond imitations.
[02:12:50]  They tend to be like, I'm sorry, forgive me, like fat losers who need money and have some sort of criminal history.
[02:12:57]  And so they say yes when nobody else would and then show up like a doofus, not understanding how to get the ring camera out of there.
[02:13:04]  But they don't really give a damn because they got the mask on.
[02:13:06]  There's one thing they got to do and they're going to get a $5,000 check out of this.
[02:13:09]  So that's that.
[02:13:10]  Am I right?
[02:13:11]  Oh, yeah.
[02:13:12]  I don't know.
[02:13:12]  Cash more than check, but yeah.
[02:13:15]  I jump in on your theory, Megan, I think, which is quite solid.

=== Stalking Threats and 911 Calls (05:55) ===

[02:13:19]  I mean, in terms of a stalker or a fixated person, as we would call them.
[02:13:22]  I've worked in a number of these cases.
[02:13:24]  And certainly, this may also explain why the FBI are also continuing their inquiries with Savannah's sister.
[02:13:32]  So there's a possibility.
[02:13:34]  I've had cases where fixated people have actually approached fellow family members because they can't get to their primary fixation.
[02:13:43]  So there's always a possibility that maybe the FBI are visiting with the sister to try and gather information from them or from neighbors, associates, colleagues, to see whether they'd been approached by anybody who had a fixation on Savannah.
[02:13:59]  That's a great question.
[02:14:00]  And I will tell you, when I was dealing with that stalker, one of the first things the security teams told me was make sure you go to your neighbors, all of your neighbors, and tell them, I mean, I do actually have brothers, but like to tell them no one's going to come looking for me from my family.
[02:14:19]  If anybody comes looking for me saying they're related to me, you don't know me.
[02:14:23]  You have no idea where I am, who I am, like give no information out because they did say in a lot of these cases, they'll go to the neighbors around you, to friends.
[02:14:33]  They'll pretend that they know you and try to extract information out.
[02:14:38]  And so, again, it may just be me reverting to my priors, but Megan, it's been a serious worry of mine from the start.
[02:14:43]  I've never seen that though, Megan.
[02:14:45]  You learned from it, which is what you have to do when something like this happens to you.
[02:14:52]  What you're doing is good.
[02:14:54]  And it's trusting your gut.
[02:14:56]  You know, your gut has changed and you're now in a different place.
[02:15:00]  For sure.
[02:15:00]  And let's not forget the granddaddy of all these types of stalker cases.
[02:15:04]  John Hinkley tried to assassinate President Reagan to get in better graces with Jodi Foster because he somehow couldn't get close to her.
[02:15:13]  In my fourth book, A Journey to the Center of Mind, Book Four, I actually have a chapter in there about how I met Ann Coulter.
[02:15:19]  She had a crazy stalker going after her.
[02:15:22]  I actually agreed to meet the guy in Washington, D.C. at some time off.
[02:15:26]  I'm actually sort of negotiating with the stalker about how to sort of alleviate the problem for Ann.
[02:15:32]  And since then, I've been in touch with Ann.
[02:15:35]  She's had some other problems over the years, but this guy was the worst and he was going through all kinds of meetings.
[02:15:40]  Luckily, never anything physical against her.
[02:15:43]  But these guys are out there.
[02:15:45]  And Megan, I think one of the first words I used with you, I think it was Tuesday, a week ago, victimology.
[02:15:51]  And it's not just Nancy Guthries, of course.
[02:15:54]  It extends to the family too, including Savannah.
[02:15:56]  And she would be the big one.
[02:15:58]  She's the one with the name and the celebrity status.
[02:16:02]  And that would be every single email she's received for the last year or two.
[02:16:06]  Start with that and go backwards if you have to.
[02:16:09]  But it certainly could be someone who sits at the TV.
[02:16:11]  It's one thing about people like weather women on TV.
[02:16:13]  We used to get a lot of those folks.
[02:16:15]  I was in New York, FBI in New York.
[02:16:18]  A retired NYPD lieutenant who I knew, he was in charge of security.
[02:16:22]  Every single NBC correspondent had some kind of threat against them, usually women.
[02:16:27]  And I'd have to go out and send leads around the country, interview people myself.
[02:16:31]  And there are some strange people.
[02:16:32]  You look into the camera and talk, which quite frankly, Megan, you are now, you do every day.
[02:16:38]  People can sit back and just watch you and perceive that you're talking to them.
[02:16:43]  You're talking to them personally.
[02:16:45]  And that's where their mind starts going.
[02:16:46]  The erotomania kicks in.
[02:16:48]  Women do it, have it too, usually with men victims, but also in most cases, it's men with women victims.
[02:16:56]  And the stalker I know of in Savannah's case is a female.
[02:17:00]  It happens.
[02:17:01]  It happens.
[02:17:03]  Let me, if I could, real quick.
[02:17:04]  Fitz, I know you got to run.
[02:17:05]  Thank you so much for your expertise.
[02:17:07]  Let's keep the discussion going.
[02:17:08]  I can see both James and Will had something to say.
[02:17:10]  Yeah, I would be remiss if I didn't at least say this before we cut our time together, but two things.
[02:17:17]  One is, you know, the van that was mentioned earlier in the reporting was that, you know, some of the neighbors saw a white van, what we would refer to as a creeper van in and around her home.
[02:17:29]  Okay, that's completely, you know, as soon as I heard that, I'm like, yep.
[02:17:34]  And because what you're, we call that pre-operational surveillance.
[02:17:37]  We, we, you know, you're doing surveillance of the target prior to the operation.
[02:17:41]  It's very, very common.
[02:17:43]  It's in what we call the attack cycle.
[02:17:45]  It's part of the cycle.
[02:17:46]  Once they've identified who they're going to target, they do some type of pre-operational surveillance.
[02:17:50]  And unfortunately, what happens is, like in this case, someone calls it in and law enforcement will say something.
[02:17:55]  And I don't know what they did on this thing, by the way.
[02:17:57]  I haven't heard a word with regards to what they did.
[02:18:00]  They identified a driver if they ran for wants or warrants or anything.
[02:18:04]  But usually what I find, because I call 911 a lot about the same type of thing, suspicious vehicles.
[02:18:09]  And I hear things from police officers like, well, it's not a threat.
[02:18:12]  There's not a crime.
[02:18:13]  There's nothing to it.
[02:18:14]  Yada, yada.
[02:18:15]  Well, I don't ever do that, right?
[02:18:17]  When I see a van, a creeper van in my neighborhood, I circle back and I get the license plate.
[02:18:21]  Right.
[02:18:22]  And I'll call 911.
[02:18:23]  And if they come or they don't come, I don't really care because I'm going to have a plan.
[02:18:26]  Right.
[02:18:27]  I don't just create.
[02:18:28]  And what people do is they create an alibi.
[02:18:30]  They'll create a story and they'll say, oh, it's not a big deal.
[02:18:33]  It's just a white van.
[02:18:34]  Somebody's working on the neighbor's house, even though there's no placards on the van to suggest it's a plumbing company or an electrical company or anything like that.
[02:18:42]  But they'll make some story, like you were talking about trying to be nice or, you know, any of that stuff.
[02:18:47]  Don't do that.
[02:18:48]  Okay.
[02:18:48]  Especially if you're a targeted individual or you're related to someone who's being targeted.
[02:18:53]  The second thing is everyone talks about threats, It's not the threats that get people.
[02:18:59]  Okay.
[02:19:00]  John Hinckley never threatened Ronald Reagan.
[02:19:02]  It's they show up.
[02:19:03]  They keep coming.
[02:19:04]  They inappropriately pursue.
[02:19:06]  They keep writing emails and phone calls.
[02:19:09]  They don't say, I'm going to kill you.
[02:19:11]  Okay.
[02:19:11]  It's just they keep coming.
[02:19:13]  That's what we're concerned about.

=== Secret Service Engagement Concerns (15:03) ===

[02:19:15]  Yeah, the threat is concerning.
[02:19:16]  The spoken threat causes anxiety, but that's not what it is.
[02:19:21]  That's not what's moving the needle.
[02:19:22]  Okay.
[02:19:23]  It's the inappropriate nature and their inability to let go.
[02:19:27]  That's what we should be focused on.
[02:19:29]  Sorry.
[02:19:30]  This is so eerie because I will tell you that this stalker in my life, and I really haven't talked about it much because, you know, there's always a chance he's going to watch this and I don't want to reignite anything.
[02:19:41]  You know, it's just, it's a creepy, dangerous topic.
[02:19:44]  But I was receiving all these, you know, notes and emails and letters.
[02:19:51]  And then one day, I exited the White House where I'd been on the lawn.
[02:19:57]  I was just a babe in the woods reporter.
[02:20:00]  I hadn't, I was, I wasn't controversial at all.
[02:20:03]  Like I was just starting at Fox News.
[02:20:05]  Nobody even knew who I was for the most part.
[02:20:07]  But I was, I walked out of the White House front gate off of the lawn from my reporting and he was there.
[02:20:13]  And he lived in another state.
[02:20:15]  He had driven something like 17 hours, 14, I don't know how many.
[02:20:20]  And introduced himself.
[02:20:21]  Like, he didn't introduce himself.
[02:20:23]  He, it was like, it would be as if, I'm not going to say his name, but it would be as if I came up to you, Maureen, and I was like, Maureen, it's me, Megan.
[02:20:30]  Like he said it like that.
[02:20:32]  Like, of course you know me.
[02:20:33]  And I, and he was like confused by my confused face because he came over so familiar and was like, hey, it's me.
[02:20:38]  And he said his name.
[02:20:40]  And, you know, it took me a second.
[02:20:42]  And I will say, rather than doing what I should have done, and it's not like I was some nincum poop at the time.
[02:20:48]  I'd been practicing law for 10 years.
[02:20:50]  I was now a journalist, just turning around and asking the Secret Service to let me back in one of the most secure facilities in America.
[02:20:57]  Wow.
[02:20:58]  I ran like a dope.
[02:21:01]  I ran.
[02:21:01]  You know, I was panicked.
[02:21:03]  I felt the water rising.
[02:21:05]  And he chased me.
[02:21:07]  It was genuinely scary.
[02:21:08]  But my point is simply, if you are an erotomaniac, you will show up inappropriately at places you don't belong.
[02:21:17]  You will be totally calm about it.
[02:21:20]  You think it's wanted.
[02:21:22]  You will get messages from the one you're obsessed with through their hand gestures on TV.
[02:21:28]  That's what he used to get from me.
[02:21:29]  If I like brought my hand up here, he would say, I know that means this.
[02:21:33]  He sent me a whole chart.
[02:21:34]  Like, I know these finger motions mean this and that means that.
[02:21:36]  So like.
[02:21:37]  It is very possible this guy could have been sitting at home watching Savannah Guthrie on the Today Show every day, quote, communicating with her in a way she wasn't actually, but in his mind she was and thinking somehow this is what she wanted.
[02:21:51]  This was blessed by her.
[02:21:54]  And what Fitz said at the end there is very true.
[02:21:57]  I have been told this many times that it happens more frequently with news people than even real celebrities, like actors, because we do look right into the lens and the actors don't.
[02:22:10]  But go ahead, Will.
[02:22:12]  Yeah, I was just going to say, I mean, certainly of all the cases where I've looked after newscasters and presenters, they are deemed to be more approachable because of exactly that point you make, Megan.
[02:22:22]  You're looking directly into the camera.
[02:22:24]  You're not looking off camera, interacting with other personalities.
[02:22:27]  You're talking directly to the viewer.
[02:22:29]  And of the fixated people that I've dealt with, they do have this entire language that they believe their understanding of those communications, albeit however inert they may be, that those gestures by you are communicating some kind of connectivity with them.
[02:22:46]  Now, the problem is you can't get past that kind of logic or that sort of rationale that someone's put themselves into.
[02:22:54]  But there is also a rationale that they can do.
[02:22:57]  You can't reason somebody out of this fixation.
[02:22:59]  No, not at all.
[02:23:00]  Sorry.
[02:23:00]  Yeah, not at all.
[02:23:01]  James's point about the advanced reconnaissance or the pre-operational surveillance is so valid.
[02:23:08]  The one thing which obviously is very scary and was scary for you, Megan, and you running off, I think, other than asking the Secret Service to let you back in, was the best other action you could have taken.
[02:23:19]  You know, you could have frozen on the spot and been rendered immobile.
[02:23:24]  So the fact that you did run off was probably a good thing.
[02:23:27]  However, this advanced reconnaissance is to try and ascertain and determine what we would call a pattern of life.
[02:23:33]  We're all creatures of routine, we all generally wake up between five and 10 minutes of the same time every morning during the working week.
[02:23:40]  We'll go to the same, probably three or four restaurants in our local area, even though we may have a choice of 20 or 30.
[02:23:46]  We'll go to the gym at the same time.
[02:23:48]  And that's what the attacker, abductor, or kidnapper is going to be looking for so that they can find that ideal moment where they can then strike with whatever motive that they may have.
[02:24:00]  So they will also extend that to trying to find a location where you are less likely to be part of that pattern of life.
[02:24:08]  So you coming out of the White House, I would imagine you'd either tweeted or there'd been some press coverage or some advance notice that you're going to be attending.
[02:24:16]  And he knew he could turn up and see you there.
[02:24:18]  It was a brave gesture, which shows the lack of sanity, a brave gesture, however, to confront you right in front of the White House with Secret Service nearby.
[02:24:29]  And then think about it.
[02:24:29]  Even after he saw me run and he had to chase me, he continued with the letters that we're in love, that, you know, nothing, nothing registered.
[02:24:39]  Like they don't perceive communications saying no the way a normal person does.
[02:24:46]  And that's actually something that Gavin DeBecker has written about as well, which is there's a big debate in the stalking community about not stalkers, but the victims of stalkers and the men and women who protect the targets of a stalker, whether you even give them an initial no, whether you give them the hard, no, stay away from me.
[02:25:10]  I don't want you, or whether you just do zero, because even the no is perceived as a yes, you know, in the same way the hand gesture is a yes and the running away is a yes.
[02:25:21]  And so it's like, Savannah could very well have one of these.
[02:25:25]  Again, the woman I know about is a woman.
[02:25:27]  And by the way, she's African-American.
[02:25:29]  So she's not, it's definitely not, if this person we're looking at is involved in any way, it's not the same person.
[02:25:37]  Your point on the no, Megan, just jumping in there very quickly, is absolutely right in terms of not giving a response.
[02:25:43]  It's much like if you're being harassed or intimidated online, you know, the golden rule is never to respond because you're giving the threat or you're giving the troll or the abuser oxygen for for them and some confirmation of connectivity with you.
[02:26:00]  By giving no response whatsoever, you are starving them with that oxygen of being able to engage with you because they're looking for a reaction.
[02:26:06]  I would just jump in on that, Megan, that, you know, Gavin calls it engage and enrage.
[02:26:11]  So if you engage with them, you enrage them.
[02:26:14]  So you don't engage.
[02:26:15]  You try to get them to detach and move away.
[02:26:18]  The reason people do want you to use the no is for the legal part of it.
[02:26:23]  So you can go to a court and say, I did set a boundary.
[02:26:26]  I did tell him to, you know, the communication was unwanted and we did tell him no, yada, yada.
[02:26:31]  But, you know, we could argue that all day.
[02:26:33]  And I think Gavin's probably correct.
[02:26:35]  You just don't engage with the people like Will's talking about.
[02:26:37]  But I did want to real quick double back on your story because when you said the guy traveled to DC from a thousand miles away, you know, Maureen and I both were like immediately popping on that because targeted travel is much more concerning than the guy writing a letter saying, I'm going to kill you.
[02:26:53]  The person that travels from a thousand miles away, gets on an airplane to come to see you.
[02:26:58]  That is very, very concerning.
[02:26:59]  And lastly, I just got to make sure I say this to you.
[02:27:02]  You are not a dope.
[02:27:03]  Don't say that.
[02:27:04]  When you ran, you did something.
[02:27:07]  And I tell people all the time, flight is fight.
[02:27:09]  You are fighting for your own life by running away.
[02:27:12]  So don't ever do that to yourself and second guess yourself and say, oh, I did the wrong thing.
[02:27:16]  The hell you did.
[02:27:17]  You did the right thing.
[02:27:18]  You said, I want to get away from this.
[02:27:19]  I'm going to get away from it right now.
[02:27:21]  And you did it.
[02:27:22]  So good for you.
[02:27:23]  Don't do that, Josh.
[02:27:24]  Oh, thank you.
[02:27:25]  Thank you for saying that.
[02:27:27]  It was a genuinely traumatic experience to happen, you know, so young in my career.
[02:27:33]  And I think a lot of public figures have had it.
[02:27:35]  And that's why I look at this and I'm like, I don't, this could have been somebody who wasn't known at all to Savannah, who just had this obsession from afar, like Robert Bardo, maybe just a letter or whatever, an email.
[02:27:47]  You get enough of them in his public, you don't even pay attention to them, who then may have been set off by something, maybe some perceived rejection, some perceived slight that she didn't, she has no idea about set him off to where he decided he needed to escalate it or he was going to get her attention one way or another.
[02:28:10]  And maybe it's all about causing the suffering, enjoying watching the tearful videos that have come out.
[02:28:18]  That's why there's no ransom demand.
[02:28:20]  It's not about relieving any of the pain.
[02:28:23]  It's just about causing it.
[02:28:25]  Because the thing I can't get past, Maureen, is the odds of some stranger criminal just happening to stumble upon Savannah Guthrie's mother seem infinitesimal.
[02:28:42]  I just, I don't, I feel like this is either a family member or it's somebody like that that it's about Savannah.
[02:28:50]  It's one of those two things in my mind.
[02:28:52]  Well, if we kind of reverse engineer it, Would this case even be here if Savannah weren't as popular and lovely as she is?
[02:29:01]  I don't know.
[02:29:02]  I tend to agree with you, but we won't know until, you know, until this whole thing is over.
[02:29:09]  But to your point on stalking, I know so, so many women that have been stalked that have no and had no public persona.
[02:29:20]  And I'm talking about going all the way back to before there even was the term stalking.
[02:29:25]  for women and before people even took it seriously.
[02:29:29]  It's it's it's and they don't in most jurisdictions still.
[02:29:32]  Yeah.
[02:29:33]  Well, and I don't know about you guys, but my experience is that a lot of times they don't know.
[02:29:38]  You may not even know about the stalking that's going on or the inappropriate letters.
[02:29:44]  I mean, I'm friends with a judge out of Texas who was shot in a driveway and she never even knew the guy that did it because he showed up in her court and that he had, you know, taken some type of offense and he got mad and held a grievance.
[02:29:57]  Well, she didn't even know he was out and she didn't know that he was threatening to hurt her because the police never told her.
[02:30:03]  And so she actually saw the guy jogging in front of her house.
[02:30:06]  She didn't, she thought it was odd, but no one from law enforcement had told her, hey, this guy, you know, told his girlfriend he's going to kill you.
[02:30:12]  And sure enough, the guy did.
[02:30:14]  He tried to kill her.
[02:30:15]  And so a lot of times you may not even know.
[02:30:17]  So what I mean is sometimes your security people, maybe even the studio, and in her case, maybe they don't even tell her about some of these things.
[02:30:26]  Yeah, I mean, that's frankly how even in my own life, like they only raise it to my attention if it's, you know, if it's, if it deserves to, because you can't live your life being told of every threat.
[02:30:35]  It's just too, it's too, too much of a crazy thing.
[02:30:37]  But we were talking about Gavin a bit since you worked with him, James, but in Gavin's book, I believe this is where I got this from, The Gift of Fear, he writes about this story.
[02:30:49]  And there's, I can't remember whether it was his book or an online forum on stalking, but I've definitely read the story about a woman who wrestled with whether or not to get a restraining order against the stalker.
[02:31:01]  And she decided to get it.
[02:31:03]  And they found her that later that day or the next day with the restraining order stabbed through her heart.
[02:31:11]  And so like any sort of perceived rejection, you know, which is basically what that stalker was responding to, can escalate the behavior of the stalker to a truly dangerous level.
[02:31:22]  And so I just keep looking at you, you, thank God, you, you really can't get to Savannah like that, even on the entrance and exit to NBC.
[02:31:31]  And I won't go through the security protocols, but I worked there for almost two years.
[02:31:35]  She's protected.
[02:31:36]  And obviously she knows how to hide her home address and all that stuff.
[02:31:40]  But the mother, I haven't looked it up, but I'm sure she was a sitting duck down there.
[02:31:45]  I'm sure it was a much different story.
[02:31:47]  And so if there were a precipitating event of any kind, again, and keep in mind, we're talking about a lunatic who perceives the hand motions as a rejection or a slight.
[02:31:57]  Suddenly the mother's gone.
[02:31:58]  I just think like we've been so obsessed with, yes, we're looking at the brother because of the Ashley tip.
[02:32:03]  We don't know whether it's real.
[02:32:04]  And we're looking at personnel who worked on her lawn because you got to.
[02:32:10]  And she's so close to Mexico.
[02:32:12]  And they do have very bad kidnapping down there and bad guys who will do that kind of thing with a rich family, all that.
[02:32:18]  And that's all still on the table.
[02:32:20]  But this is Elaine.
[02:32:21]  I just, I don't hear talked about that much, James.
[02:32:23]  And so the precipitating event, we have no idea what it may have been, but it's, it's very possible the whole goal was to hurt Savannah Guthrie.
[02:32:29]  Yeah, I certainly like that theory.
[02:32:31]  Oh, I'm sorry, Walt.
[02:32:33]  Go ahead, James.
[02:32:33]  Go ahead.
[02:32:34]  Well, I certainly like your theory, Megan, better than this cartel thing.
[02:32:37]  I mean, I don't know.
[02:32:38]  I mean, I work those guys.
[02:32:39]  I don't know what do they benefit from that.
[02:32:42]  You know, they're in a business.
[02:32:44]  What do they benefit from hurting this old lady?
[02:32:47]  I mean, I don't see it.
[02:32:49]  It doesn't make it.
[02:32:50]  It sounds interesting.
[02:32:51]  It gets people excited.
[02:32:52]  Oh, yes, in close proximity to Mexico, but a lot of people live there every day and they're not kidnapped.
[02:32:56]  Okay.
[02:32:56]  And the cartel is in a business.
[02:32:58]  So I don't see how this is a business for them.
[02:33:00]  And it's not like she's going to be sold into sex slavery or something like that.
[02:33:06]  I'm with you.
[02:33:07]  That's right.
[02:33:07]  I really think that it is going to be tied back to something with regards to a family member, an acquaintance, and or her fame.
[02:33:16]  I just, that's where I would be leaning if I was an investigator right now.
[02:33:21]  Especially without the proof of life.
[02:33:22]  Go ahead, Will.
[02:33:23]  Yeah.
[02:33:24]  Yeah, I mean, again, the one thing I find really confusing is the fact that if it was just a direct or indirect attack at Savannah by targeting the mother, who is the path of least resistance, much easier to get to, this wouldn't have necessarily, I would have thought, resulted in an abduction.
[02:33:44]  The whole abduction thing is really the most confusing factor here as to why she was actually removed from that location.
[02:33:50]  If it was a retribution of some nature, then I would have thought she would have been assaulted, possibly killed, obviously in her own home.
[02:33:58]  But the fact that she's missing, and if it was, she was taken away from the scene to be murdered or to be hurt in some way, then again, it would be a question of where would the body be dumped.
[02:34:09]  And that would no doubt have fallen within the plan of the attacker before they undertook it.
[02:34:13]  So in the same way as assassins will.
[02:34:16]  So it's this.
[02:34:17]  I want to keep talking about this.

=== Weak Proof of Abduction (15:02) ===

[02:34:18]  What we had to say about a Sirius XM.
[02:34:20]  We'll continue it on pod and YouTube.
[02:34:22]  Hey, everyone.
[02:34:23]  It's me, Megan Kelly.
[02:34:24]  I've got some exciting news.
[02:34:26]  I now have my very own channel on SiriusXM.
[02:34:29]  It's called the Megan Kelly Channel, and it is where you will hear the truth unfiltered with no agenda and no apologies.
[02:34:36]  Along with the Megan Kelly show, you're going to hear from people like Mark Halperin, Lake Lauren, Maureen Callahan, Emily Drushinsky, Jesse Kelly, Real Clear Politics, and many more.
[02:34:45]  It's bold no BS news only on the Megan Kelly channel, SiriusXM 111, and on the Sirius XM app.
[02:34:56]  We're back now with our FBI and security experts.
[02:34:59]  Will, you were right in the middle of a point where we had to end because the Sirius XM show was ending.
[02:35:03]  Could you pick it back up?
[02:35:04]  Yes, I'll try my best, Megan.
[02:35:06]  I mean, fundamentally, there are so many disjoints on this whole case, which is really surprising me and it is kind of baffling me.
[02:35:14]  And it is that there are certain aspects which are professional, like the advanced reconnaissance.
[02:35:19]  And again, I think Kash Patel is holding back an awful lot of information.
[02:35:24]  There's probably very good reasons for it.
[02:35:26]  But I think it's querying the pitch somewhat.
[02:35:28]  And I think it's confusing certainly analysts like ourselves who are trying to break it down and understand that, if you like, the series of actions, the series of elements that have taken place in this whole case.
[02:35:41]  But the big question is of cases where I've seen assassinations or assassination attempts, and I've been involved in obviously protecting against, and certainly in cases where there's retribution attacks or revenge attacks of some nature, they will look for the best location to carry that out.
[02:36:00]  And one thing that really has confused me is the removal, obviously, of Nancy from that location and her disappearance.
[02:36:09]  And if it was to kill her, then there's every good chance they would have disposed of her body or put it in a location.
[02:36:15]  And certainly, if it was a message that they were trying to send to Savannah, they would want her to know what has actually happened.
[02:36:23]  So I think at the moment, we were talking in the break just now, me and your other guests, about the ransom demands.
[02:36:30]  And at the moment, there is just no legitimate, as I can see, ransom demand that has been made that could be evidenced against proof of life.
[02:36:39]  I've worked on cases where there's been kidnappings and dozens of different individuals have jumped out.
[02:36:45]  Even legitimate groups and terrorists and militia within certain countries have jumped out claiming responsibility.
[02:36:52]  I remember there was one case in Papua New Guinea that I worked on and 110 different groups claimed that they were holding the hostages.
[02:37:00]  And the only way you can find out is either by proof of life or, regrettably, proof of death.
[02:37:08]  We've been talking about this proof of life thing and the hostage or the ransom notes because there was some confusion about whether maybe the second note did have some sort of proof of life in it and the family may have been responding to it.
[02:37:23]  And now this yesterday, there were reports that there was a $6 million transfer of Bitcoin.
[02:37:29]  It's just a $6 million transfer of Bitcoin.
[02:37:34]  We have no idea whether it's into the account of whomever made that first demand.
[02:37:40]  I don't know.
[02:37:41]  It's strange that just like there's a Bitcoin market and I guess you can see who's moving Bitcoin and how much of it they're moving.
[02:37:47]  But this is what they're saying, that somebody moved $6 million worth of Bitcoin yesterday.
[02:37:52]  And there's no confirmation about who it was or whether it was into the account of the person who wrote the first note.
[02:37:59]  And Harvey Levin wouldn't specify.
[02:38:02]  He said, I'm not comfortable talking about it, which was also kind of ominous.
[02:38:07]  Yeah, right.
[02:38:08]  Understandable, but also ominous.
[02:38:10]  Like, I don't know.
[02:38:11]  I guess I kind of would think that if it weren't into that account, he'd say no, but maybe not, because maybe the police, the FBI did deposit, as the local station said, $300 into the Bitcoin account.
[02:38:25]  And he does not want to confirm that it wasn't $6 million because they're trying to, as we discussed in the first hour, quote, tickle the wire.
[02:38:33]  They're trying to fool the perpetrator or whoever wrote the note into believing, oh my God, the $6 million might be in there.
[02:38:39]  I'm going to go check.
[02:38:40]  So he doesn't want to be all over the news saying it's not, it's not $6 million.
[02:38:43]  Trust me, I've seen what's been transferred.
[02:38:45]  It's only $300.
[02:38:47]  So that could all be happening.
[02:38:49]  But as for whether there was proof of life in the second note, which Harvey did not receive, only one local Tucson television affiliate received it.
[02:38:58]  And they did not get explicit about what was in or not in it, but their sister television station, Arizona Family, did.
[02:39:07]  And we pulled the soundbite.
[02:39:08]  We do have it now.
[02:39:09]  Let's play it.
[02:39:10]  Let's check in with our true crime correspondent, Brianna Whitney, live for us in Tucson to walk us through what we are able to reveal about this latest note that came into the family.
[02:39:21]  Yeah, and it's been in the last hour that we've learned we can reveal a little bit more.
[02:39:26]  Jared, you mentioned it.
[02:39:27]  There is no proof of life in this new note, but there's also no additional ransom demand.
[02:39:33]  And there's also no way for the kidnapper to communicate with the Guthrie family.
[02:39:37]  There was no way for the Guthries to reach back out.
[02:39:40]  So those are three new details we're able to report at this hour.
[02:39:43]  But it is exceptionally concerning when you know that we are still searching for 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie.
[02:39:50]  So at no point that we know of was there proof of life at all to the family.
[02:39:56]  And therefore, we have no reason to believe they would pay $6 million to these people based on proof we also don't know about them allegedly having Nancy because they could cite to her white Apple watch and possibly its placement in the home where it was in her home and a broken floodlight on the exterior of the home, which, look, it's better than nothing to have that.
[02:40:21]  But we've been making the point here all week.
[02:40:23]  It's not great.
[02:40:25]  I mean, If I have somebody and I want to prove to their family members I have them, there are way more intimate details I can offer about the person by talking to them if they're alive to prove I've got them and I know a lot about them that I should not know as a captor.
[02:40:44]  And even if the person had died and you're trying to do the Exxon game of pretending that they're still alive, if I'm the actual abductor, I think I could do better than I know the placement of the Apple Watch in the home, which is something that's you could potentially see, even if you're not the abductor.
[02:41:03]  I just, I feel like the proof that they have her, at least as it's been shared with us so far, and there could be much better proof that we don't know about, is very weak for making the case that the people who wrote the ransom notes are in fact the abductor or related to the abductor.
[02:41:17]  Exactly.
[02:41:17]  They obviously have her dressed.
[02:41:20]  She was wearing clothing when she left.
[02:41:22]  They could say your mom's wearing sketcher shoes and nightgown by whatever maker.
[02:41:29]  And, you know, or if she's alive, you could ask her all these questions.
[02:41:35]  What did you give Savannah for her 16th birthday?
[02:41:38]  Things that other people aren't going to know.
[02:41:40]  So you could at least have an inventory moving forward, but absolutely none of that.
[02:41:45]  This is all perplexing.
[02:41:47]  It doesn't make any sense.
[02:41:48]  And for those of us that spent our decades in law enforcement and in security, we're logic-driven thinkers.
[02:41:56]  And so it's driving people mad.
[02:42:00]  I think it's sorry, James.
[02:42:04]  I was just going to say, I think that there are a couple of really interesting observations that I'd like to pop in there.
[02:42:09]  Firstly, was the amount, 6 million.
[02:42:12]  Now, if it's a professional group, a few years ago, ransoms would be settled by paying Bitcoin, particularly if it was in another country where the access to cash would have been difficult or to carry the cash is going to be difficult.
[02:42:24]  And unlike in the movies, carrying $6 million in $100 bills actually weighs a heck of a lot.
[02:42:29]  So trying to transport it or move it to a location is very difficult.
[02:42:33]  And particularly for the drop-off point or the pickup point of where you're going to leave it, whether it be on a thumb drive or whatever.
[02:42:41]  The $6 million, I'm really not that surprised by that figure because a lot of, and I'm not revealing any state secrets here, a lot of KNR insurance policies will go to approximately about 5 million, $5 million to about $10 million if it's in a high risk or conflict zone.
[02:42:59]  And the other issue to really follow on what Maureen was saying, which was absolutely bang on in my estimation, which was this issue about asking questions.
[02:43:08]  These are questions which can't be easily answered through research online.
[02:43:13]  Could be a picture on Facebook or it could be some background information you do through open source.
[02:43:18]  So it could be, for example, Megan, what was the name of your family pet when you were a small child or your first family pet?
[02:43:24]  It'll be information that people can't find very easy and will only be within your intimate circles.
[02:43:30]  Sorry, James.
[02:43:31]  No, you're fine, brother.
[02:43:32]  I was just going to say, you know, Megan, that all of this is a distraction.
[02:43:35]  And not only is it a distraction from the investigation, it causes, you know, a lot of anxiety for the family.
[02:43:42]  The family's hearing that, oh, someone may have her and they want $6 million.
[02:43:46]  And then they get their hopes up and they get very excited.
[02:43:48]  And then the investigators like us are in the back saying, well, we need proof of life.
[02:43:53]  We need to make sure they're for real.
[02:43:54]  And then the family finds out, well, it's not for real.
[02:43:57]  And then they're let down.
[02:43:58]  And it's this concert roller coaster.
[02:44:00]  And remember, there's only so many investigators.
[02:44:03]  So this is a distraction.
[02:44:05]  It causes confusion.
[02:44:06]  It causes false hopes.
[02:44:08]  I certainly hope that these people were found and prosecuted for doing these things.
[02:44:12]  If it turns out, like we've been talking about, that it's fraudulent.
[02:44:15]  Because that's very, you know, that's a disgusting person who will take advantage of a family in a situation like this, but it's out there and it happens.
[02:44:23]  But yeah, for me, if I'm with this family, I'm like, look, we're not paying anything until we have some proof, exactly what Will's talking about, something that other people would not know, you know, and there's a lot of ways we do that.
[02:44:36]  And you just have to have the courage to say, look, this is nonsense.
[02:44:39]  I know you're excited.
[02:44:40]  I know you want it to be true, but they don't have her.
[02:44:42]  And you got to say goodbye and you got to move on.
[02:44:45]  And you got to have the courage to make that call.
[02:44:47]  And that's very, very difficult when you got a family looking you in the face.
[02:44:50]  And you're going to have this.
[02:44:52]  Guys, like you have been saying all along that in prior kidnapping cases that you guys are familiar with, that the kidnappers are not shy about producing proof of life.
[02:45:02]  They want you to know they really do have your person and they want you to pay up.
[02:45:07]  It's not this like, I'm not going to, well, you can't have it or I'm not even going to mention it.
[02:45:12]  We're not going to talk about that.
[02:45:14]  It's like that's that doesn't dovetail at all with anybody's prior experiences.
[02:45:19]  I did want to ask you this, Maureen.
[02:45:21]  Let me start with you on this as like our forensic analyst.
[02:45:25]  The blood trail changed yesterday.
[02:45:29]  Fox News's reporter released his own video.
[02:45:33]  Brian Enton got pictures of the blood drops on Nancy's front porch right away because they released the house on Monday after the Sunday she went missing.
[02:45:43]  So he just walked up there and filmed it.
[02:45:45]  But apparently so did Fox News and their digital reporter Ruiz is his last name.
[02:45:51]  And he said, you know, I guess I'm going to release Michael.
[02:45:55]  I'm going to release mine too.
[02:45:56]  And so this is his tape.
[02:45:58]  And it does show blood.
[02:45:59]  It shows some sort of some blue shirt out on the front walkway on a rock.
[02:46:06]  And it also does show blood beyond.
[02:46:10]  Now we're onto the sort of square terracotta tiles where we'd seen blood thanks to Brian previously.
[02:46:16]  But here now we're out on the more cement looking walkway and you can see blood.
[02:46:20]  You can see more blood drops.
[02:46:22]  Previously unknown to us, that wasn't in Brian's original reporting, which I, you tell me what you glean from that.
[02:46:29]  It's to be expected.
[02:46:31]  The only way, you know, if someone is actively bleeding, the only way for it to really stop in that short of a period of time, one would imagine, especially after some sort of traumatic injury, like a punch or something along those lines, would be to either put paper towels on her face or a t-shirt on her face.
[02:46:50]  Did anyone turn that t-shirt over and see what's on the other side?
[02:46:53]  Oh, good to see you.
[02:46:54]  Just at least until you get into the car.
[02:46:58]  You don't want someone that's actively bleeding to get into your vehicle unless you have that tarp in the car.
[02:47:04]  Or, you know, we talked a lot about that backpack yesterday, Megan, and how full it was.
[02:47:09]  And if we can all imagine being in an airport and people watching as we all do, you can see when someone has a backpack, you can see if there are heavy items at the bottom, bulging items on the side.
[02:47:22]  But this one appeared to be very smooth, almost like a rolled-up tarp or a rolled up blanket.
[02:47:27]  Those are things that if, you know, in your quote-unquote kidnap kit, you would want in your vehicle so that you put it in there and don't create evidence.
[02:47:37]  One thing we've been discussing is how little your average perpetrator would want to drive around with an 84-year-old in his back seat or, you know, in any part of the car, lest he'd be pulled over, lest a camera, a red light camera or a license plate reader see her.
[02:47:57]  But back to the point about the white van, James's favorite white van, if you have one of those white vans, they don't have windows in the back.
[02:48:06]  That's one of the things that make them so creepy.
[02:48:08]  But they're for sure dead.
[02:48:09]  It would be three in the morning.
[02:48:12]  What do you mean?
[02:48:12]  I mean, if you're driving a creepy van, what we call a pedo van because it has no windows, if you're driving one of those vans at 2.30 in the morning and a police officer pulls up next to you and you're looking shady, you know, they'll figure out a way to develop probable cause, your taillight, whatever else is out.
[02:48:30]  You know, that's thank God for the penal code to give you probable cause to pull people over when you need to.
[02:48:38]  Okay, so you're saying that the odds are against the white van being used in the crime because the perp would understand it would make him look even more suspicious.
[02:48:45]  No, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that exactly, but I'm just saying, I'm saying it would up the ante a little bit more than just a regular four-door nondescript sedan.
[02:48:55]  But again, my theory from the beginning has been this car did not travel on any of these major roads.
[02:49:02]  I think this car drove through side streets and went to a location very close to Nancy's home.
[02:49:09]  By the way, guys, this just breaking, there's somebody goes by JLR who's been on scene.
[02:49:13]  It's been doing great reporting.
[02:49:16]  He's got an interesting criminal history of his own.
[02:49:18]  I have to tell you, he's been doing a wonderful job covering this case.

=== Accomplice Theories and Side Streets (12:34) ===

[02:49:21]  And he reports right now law enforcement is back at Annie Guthrie and Tommaso's home.
[02:49:25]  Two men went inside their house.
[02:49:26]  Now, I don't know what that is.
[02:49:28]  It's just two men.
[02:49:29]  Maybe they're getting something for the family that's been moved to another location because they're done with the media and so on.
[02:49:34]  Well, what are they working on?
[02:49:34]  They sure do go back to that house a lot.
[02:49:36]  Megan, what is everybody hyper-focused on now?
[02:49:41]  What this person was wearing at that door.
[02:49:45]  You know, the person in the videos from yesterday, that's what everybody's hyper-focused on.
[02:49:50]  It doesn't mean it can't be related to something, something else in one of these silo investigations that Jim and I, James and I know are, you know, there's 25 or 30 of them happening right now.
[02:50:02]  But back at that house again, there we go again.
[02:50:08]  It's a lot.
[02:50:09]  It's a lot of focus on the house we're told we're not supposed to talk about.
[02:50:13]  We're not supposed to talk about the brother-in-law, but we will until the police tell us he's cleared, which they haven't.
[02:50:20]  Go ahead, James.
[02:50:21]  Oh, just, you know, she's right.
[02:50:22]  You know, Maureen's dead on the money.
[02:50:24]  It's backpack, it's ski mask, it's stupid holster that doesn't fit the semioto.
[02:50:30]  You know, it's a big revolver, what we call an uncle Mike's holster that no one carries except amateurs.
[02:50:35]  And it's an ill-matching, you know, holster and a little pistol.
[02:50:40]  It's the shoes.
[02:50:41]  It's the jacket.
[02:50:42]  It's those reflective straps on that backpack.
[02:50:44]  That's what they're looking for.
[02:50:46]  I'm telling you, those lips in that face mask look very, very familiar to me.
[02:50:53]  Meaning you think you know who it is?
[02:50:56]  I think they look like the brother-in-laws.
[02:50:58]  I pulled a couple of photos and sent them to your Allison.
[02:51:04]  And I'm not saying he did it, but I'm saying.
[02:51:09]  But don't you think this guy looks too young to be the brother-in-law?
[02:51:13]  The brother-in-law, I mean, I don't know how old he is.
[02:51:15]  I know the sister-in-law is 56.
[02:51:17]  I'm assuming she's married to somebody who's about her age.
[02:51:20]  He's got a lot of gray in his beard.
[02:51:21]  I think this guy's 50 because I think he lived in Italy till he was 30, and they've been here and together for 20 years.
[02:51:28]  That's my understanding.
[02:51:29]  He could be skin looks nice.
[02:51:34]  I don't know.
[02:51:35]  I'm just saying that in addition to the plethora of information that comes at us when we watch these videos, those lips and those eyes are very, very distinctive.
[02:51:46]  They are not my husband's eyes.
[02:51:48]  They are not my neighbor's eyes.
[02:51:50]  They're not my friend's eyes.
[02:51:52]  They're big, round, and the lips are always in this.
[02:51:57]  This person is engaged in this crazy act right now.
[02:52:01]  Not that photo.
[02:52:02]  The one I'm thinking of is the one where he has his hand up toward the, up toward the, where he's pounding his fist up in one direction.
[02:52:11]  And then you can see the circular around his lips and they're just like this.
[02:52:16]  Oh, I have it on my phone right here.
[02:52:19]  Okay, we'll try to pull it up too.
[02:52:22]  This one.
[02:52:25]  Oops.
[02:52:27]  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:52:29]  Yep.
[02:52:30]  So anybody else that works, you know, people make facial expressions when they're working, when they're doing physical things, when they're, look at how calm that person looks.
[02:52:40]  He's not, I don't think he's scared at all.
[02:52:43]  He's very comfortable where he is.
[02:52:45]  He's not worried about anybody walking up because he knows no one goes there at night.
[02:52:51]  And I have to say, I mean, on the brother-in-law, Ashley has not stood down from her reporting that as of last Tuesday, he, quote, may be the prime suspect.
[02:53:00]  She checked in with her.
[02:53:01]  She calls him an impeccable law enforcement source.
[02:53:04]  Ashley has been a crime reporter.
[02:53:05]  Like that's been her main beat now for years.
[02:53:08]  And she, unlike most people who aren't like into true crime to the extent I am and some others are, I followed her avidly.
[02:53:16]  Like Ashley is solid on her crime reporting.
[02:53:19]  I mean, like you have to understand, Jake Tapper was like, these influencers online looking for clicks.
[02:53:24]  That's not her at all.
[02:53:25]  If she just wanted clicks, trust me, she would have been doing a lot of different crimes different ways.
[02:53:29]  She's very meticulous.
[02:53:30]  She does care.
[02:53:31]  Doesn't mean she's right all the time.
[02:53:33]  She could be wrong.
[02:53:34]  Her source could be wrong.
[02:53:35]  Or maybe he was, he, quote, may have been the prime suspect last Tuesday, but isn't now.
[02:53:40]  But she did check in with him every day last week.
[02:53:42]  And she came on here at the end of the week and told me that he said to her, I don't, I haven't changed at all.
[02:53:49]  And it's when you're over the target, that's when they attack you.
[02:53:52]  So that's where we were, at least as of last Friday.
[02:53:56]  And here we are Tuesday.
[02:53:57]  And we've had repeated visits back to their house and repeated canvassing of their neighbors and their backyard, which is not, we are told, the crime scene.
[02:54:07]  It's not normal.
[02:54:08]  It's miles away from the crime scene.
[02:54:11]  Jim, have you ever seen this before?
[02:54:14]  Well, yeah, when you're very concerned about a certain individual being involved in something, I've seen it.
[02:54:19]  This is their sixth trip back.
[02:54:22]  Yeah, that's what I mean.
[02:54:23]  It's yeah.
[02:54:25]  And you have to look at these families and you never know.
[02:54:28]  We only see what people show us.
[02:54:31]  We don't know these families.
[02:54:32]  We don't know what's going on.
[02:54:34]  And unfortunately, that's where some of these investigations will lead us, you know?
[02:54:40]  So I'm saying that this is just my opinion.
[02:54:42]  I am not saying this person is guilty.
[02:54:45]  I have no inside information.
[02:54:47]  But the one thing I can tell you is the videos and images that came out yesterday, did they dissuade me?
[02:54:53]  Did they make me feel that there's no way it could be possible?
[02:54:56]  Or does it say could be?
[02:55:00]  You know, it didn't, it didn't rule him out for me.
[02:55:04]  I mean, I'll say this.
[02:55:05]  I don't think law enforcement is thinking that that's him right now because they went and arrested for what's his name, the DoorDash guy.
[02:55:14]  They didn't arrest him, but they pulled him over and they interrogated him and they searched his house and they see they didn't do that to Tomas.
[02:55:21]  So like, I don't know.
[02:55:23]  They seem to think that that's not Tomas because they thought this other poor DoorDash guy was the guy wearing the face mask.
[02:55:32]  And by this point, they would have seen Tomas's cell phone.
[02:55:35]  They would have seen probably his bank account.
[02:55:38]  They, you know, they would have seen a lot about him.
[02:55:40]  There was no stuff.
[02:55:41]  It doesn't mean they're not thinking there was no cell phone on their personal would have picked it up.
[02:55:46]  I'm sorry.
[02:55:48]  No, no, no.
[02:55:49]  It's an interesting point.
[02:55:50]  I mean, there's one consideration, perhaps, as to why they may be taking their time about this.
[02:55:55]  And that is if there was an accomplice, if there was someone else who was actually working with him.
[02:56:00]  So we'll be trying to identify that connection, who that person is.
[02:56:04]  And sometimes, you know, again, I don't have the same expertise as James and Maureen, but where I've seen this in other cases is you allow like a terrorist to run to see who his network is.
[02:56:16]  And you basically put them under surveillance to see whether you can then join the dots to who may have actually come together.
[02:56:22]  So, you know, go back to your original theory, Megan, which was someone was at the front trying to remove the ring door bell and someone else was at the back.
[02:56:29]  You know, there could be this accomplice that they're waiting out to try and identify.
[02:56:35]  The thing here, Megan, I'm so sorry.
[02:56:37]  You go ahead.
[02:56:38]  No, no, you go.
[02:56:39]  It's just the only thing different here is that, you know, this is a kidnapping.
[02:56:44]  We have a live body that we can't find.
[02:56:47]  And that's what makes this so different.
[02:56:49]  There has to be a, you know, this isn't a normal investigation where you can take your time, develop leads, get a good investigative strategy, do a good interview, a good custodial interview, you know, all of those things.
[02:57:02]  Like, Todd, the clock is ticking.
[02:57:04]  We're 10 days now.
[02:57:05]  And we've got a human being that we don't have.
[02:57:08]  And that, to me, has to ramp up everything.
[02:57:11]  And it has to be on like warp drive with regards to, you know, kind of the ferocity of which they're, you know, approaching this thing because she's out there.
[02:57:21]  All right.
[02:57:21]  Hopefully she's still alive.
[02:57:22]  But, you know, that's what they're thinking about.
[02:57:24]  And this thing's got to get moving.
[02:57:27]  I mean, if I may add to one of the things that we're going to do.
[02:57:29]  They're releasing a statement today that I'll give you the floor in one second, but they're releasing a statement today talking about the number of tips they've gotten.
[02:57:36]  I don't know, the Pima County Sheriff's Department and the FBI continue to follow up on all leads.
[02:57:39]  We thank the media and the public for the thousands of tips submitted.
[02:57:44]  The Sheriff's Department alone has received nearly 18,000 calls since February 1st, more than 4,000 of those in the last 24 hours in the wake of those pictures that we've been talking about.
[02:57:52]  Several hundred detectives and agents currently assigned to the case.
[02:57:55]  You'll continue to see increased law enforcement activity throughout Pima County.
[02:57:59]  We're working around the clock.
[02:58:00]  We encourage anybody with actionable info to call 1-800, call FBI or the Sheriff's Department.
[02:58:07]  Then they go on to talk about the one adult male detained Tuesday.
[02:58:10]  It's been released after speaking with investigators.
[02:58:12]  This is part of a follow-on of incoming leads.
[02:58:15]  As with any investigation, we do not release the identities of individuals who are detained and later released without charges.
[02:58:20]  And then they say the FBI is handling all aspects related to any ransom notes or communications involving the Guthrie family.
[02:58:26]  Inquiries about that should go there.
[02:58:29]  No press briefings scheduled at this time, which I have to say is a little odd, you guys, because the press is their number one ally if they're just looking for a missing person.
[02:58:40]  You know, if they're just trying to get the word out there, we are how they do it, which does suggest to me that they may suspect that Nancy's no longer with us, that this is switched over to a good old-fashioned crime case, possible murder case.
[02:58:55]  And that's why they don't need to keep running out and updating us because now you're just revealing facts that'll be brought to trial against the potential murderer.
[02:59:03]  They don't really need our help anymore because there's not, in their judgment, an urgency.
[02:59:09]  That's just a supposition.
[02:59:10]  What do you think?
[02:59:11]  I think that's right.
[02:59:12]  And if you look at yesterday was the greatest press conference.
[02:59:15]  We received more information yesterday from Kash Patel in that post that he did with those images than we've received at all at any time throughout this entire investigation.
[02:59:26]  So I'm happy with what we got yesterday.
[02:59:29]  Yep.
[02:59:30]  I mean, it does seem to me normally that would be accompanied by a presser where they're like, as you can see, the suspect is wearing a backpack.
[02:59:37]  And they would say things like you guys have been saying, like, please look out for the following things.
[02:59:41]  Look for somebody who behaves differently.
[02:59:42]  Look for this.
[02:59:43]  Look for that.
[02:59:44]  They're not.
[02:59:45]  So they've gone more tight-lipped.
[02:59:47]  All of this will become clear to us, I'm sure, at some point on why.
[02:59:50]  But right now, we're 26 hours post the release of that explosive tape and those explosive pictures.
[02:59:59]  And right now, maybe the magic tip is in the inbox right now, but no one is under arrest and nor have they declared a person of interest.
[03:00:06]  This has been another epic day.
[03:00:08]  Maureen, I mean, I don't know, like we just met a few days ago, but I feel like you're family to me now.
[03:00:13]  We spent count.
[03:00:14]  I've seen you more than I've seen my husband over the past few days.
[03:00:16]  Oh my gosh.
[03:00:17]  My first day, I'm supposed to be on for a 10-minute hit, two and a half hours, two hours and 45 minutes later with images that are like thumbnails in front of me that I'm analyzing.
[03:00:26]  But I saw this crime.
[03:00:28]  I know.
[03:00:28]  But I don't want anyone.
[03:00:30]  But we're really grateful.
[03:00:31]  Thank you.
[03:00:31]  Thanks for the opportunity.
[03:00:33]  But I don't want anyone to think that even though we're, you know, poking fun at this offender at the front door, not poking fun at him, but a little bit.
[03:00:43]  I don't want to downplay how frightening that image must have been to Nancy.
[03:00:49]  And it breaks my heart that she had to endure that, was even, you know, was even within 100 miles of what she had to deal with.
[03:01:02]  I just, all of us in law enforcement, I mean, you know, all my law enforcement partners and family members and everything, we, we have a, we have the heart of a lion when it comes to victims.
[03:01:13]  And 30 years in law enforcement is 30 years as being a victim advocate.
[03:01:18]  And we care more than we show half the time.
[03:01:21]  But we try to be the, you know, St. Michael the Archangel when it comes to victims.
[03:01:26]  And that's what we're all trying to do right now.
[03:01:29]  By we, I mean them.
[03:01:30]  I'm out.
[03:01:31]  I'm out of the game.
[03:01:32]  But now I'm just a security expert like you two guys, like Will and James.
[03:01:36]  No, you're, I wouldn't say you're out of the game.
[03:01:38]  I mean, I think that law enforcement is probably getting a lot of good ideas from listening to discussions like this.
[03:01:43]  I mean, by the Brain Trust that may no longer work in government for obvious reasons, but still has a lot of thoughts on what a good lead is and what things should be pursued and which shouldn't.

=== Hope Against Medical Odds (02:11) ===

[03:01:55]  All I can think of when I see that picture of the guy, like the close-up picture that you pointed out, Maureen, with the lips, is Nancy Guthrie was a single woman.
[03:02:07]  And she'd been a single woman for 40 years.
[03:02:11]  I think she was, she was in her 40s when her husband died.
[03:02:15]  And every single woman at a time or two when going to bed alone in their home has worried about the boogeyman.
[03:02:24]  You know, you lock your doors, you lock your windows, you have a security system, and you put your trust in those things protecting you.
[03:02:32]  But the boogeyman showed up in Nancy Guthrie's house and we believe in her bedroom.
[03:02:38]  And he definitely hurt her and took her.
[03:02:42]  And the only piece we're missing now is what happened next and who?
[03:02:47]  What happened next and who?
[03:02:49]  We have hope.
[03:02:49]  We have hope on the what happened next question that possibly he's got her, possibly she's still alive, notwithstanding the heart issues, the high blood pressure, the pacemaker, the nomeds, the enormous stress, the bleeding, hoping against hope that it comes out the way we want.
[03:03:06]  And you know what?
[03:03:07]  Having been in news for many, many years, miracles do happen.
[03:03:11]  Elizabeth Smart walked down that road one day and all of us who thought she was dead found out she wasn't.
[03:03:19]  It can happen.
[03:03:21]  We had a kidnapped little boy here in Los Angeles and we worked this case like there was no tomorrow and it was everybody, the local police, state police, FBI, you name it.
[03:03:31]  And we had just come off a series of other kidnappings where three small children had in fact died during these kidnap attacks.
[03:03:40]  And it was just, we were all in a bad place mentally because, you know, you can't prepare yourself for that.
[03:03:47]  We found that kid alive after a week.
[03:03:51]  Wow.
[03:03:52]  So miracles happen.
[03:03:55]  Yeah, I've had similar.
[03:03:56]  That's right.
[03:03:57]  Maybe, maybe the six million dollars, maybe it did go to the bad guys.
[03:04:02]  Maybe it's going to shake something loose.
[03:04:04]  I mean, I know we're not hopeful, but you never know.

=== Accountability for Kidnapping (01:30) ===

[03:04:06]  Yeah, go ahead, Will.
[03:04:08]  Yeah, no, I had similar.
[03:04:09]  I had a case in Brazil where the two daughters of a businessman were taken and they were very young.
[03:04:16]  And one of the biggest concerns you always have is how professional the kidnappers are.
[03:04:19]  If they're very professional and it's a transactional business, then it's pretty straightforward.
[03:04:23]  But this was a bit of a Mickey Mouse group and a bit amateurish, to put it mildly.
[03:04:28]  So the safeguarding and the welfare of the two girls was absolutely essential.
[03:04:34]  And we were, it was precarious, to put it mildly because the contacts and contact preparation was just constant.
[03:04:41]  And but ultimately, the two girls came back, they were fine, you know, counseling, but in physical good condition, which was great.
[03:04:50]  Well, well, I mean, we're all praying for that result here.
[03:04:53]  And at a minimum, if we can get to who, we might be able to get to what happened and accountability.
[03:04:59]  And then get to Hamburg.
[03:05:00]  James, Will.
[03:05:02]  Exactly right.
[03:05:03]  You too, Maureen.
[03:05:04]  It's a pleasure.
[03:05:04]  We'll see you, I'm sure, tomorrow.
[03:05:05]  Thanks for having me.
[03:05:06]  Thank you.
[03:05:07]  Thanks to all of you two.
[03:05:08]  Thanks for watching.
[03:05:09]  Thanks to all of you on YouTube watching live today.
[03:05:12]  And we will see tomorrow.
[03:05:13]  We're going on a little trip with a fam for President's Day holiday, but we will be doing shows every day, of course.
[03:05:22]  We're as into this story as you are, and I just feel like we're not going to rest until we know what's happened.
[03:05:27]  So, God bless you all.
[03:05:29]  Thank you.
[03:05:29]  Stay safe.
[03:05:29]  We'll talk tomorrow.
[03:05:33]  Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly Show.
[03:05:35]  No BS, no agenda, and no