The Megyn Kelly Show - 20230106_idaho-murders-latest-and-16-intel-failures-with-ma
Aired: 2023-01-06
Duration: 02:09:53


=== Republicans Ridicule Trump (15:16) ===

[00:00:00]  Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
[00:00:12]  Hey, everyone, I'm Megan Kelly.
[00:00:13]  Welcome to the Megan Kelly Show, and happy Friday.
[00:00:16]  Yay, it's so easy to wake up the kids on Friday, isn't it?
[00:00:19]  It's like, it's Friday.
[00:00:21]  You know, this gives you an extra pep in your step.
[00:00:24]  You know, you're going to have some good time with your family, your friends, to yourself.
[00:00:28]  You could do TV, marathon, whatever it is that floats your boat.
[00:00:31]  But first, let's get updated on the news: the good, the bad, the ugly, the fun.
[00:00:35]  We got you covered today.
[00:00:36]  We're going to have an in-depth look in a moment at the developments in the Idaho college murders.
[00:00:42]  They have now finally revealed the supporting evidence that led to this guy's arrest.
[00:00:47]  We're going to break down the major revelations.
[00:00:49]  It's from the newly unsealed 19-page affidavit, very detailed.
[00:00:54]  And we'll speak with a former FBI criminal profiler who helped track down the Unabomber, actually sat with the Unibomber, had personal interactions with the Unabomber after he was arrested, thanks in part to her, about how a suspect like this, this Brian Koberger, could turn out to be a cold-blooded killer.
[00:01:10]  Here's one of the things I want to ask her.
[00:01:11]  How does a guy credibly accused of going into this apartment in the middle of the night and killing four young, beautiful college students, innocent college students in cold blood, then turn around to his parents at his first hearing when he was waiving his extradition hearing to go from Pennsylvania back to Idaho?
[00:01:31]  How does he turn to them and say, I love you?
[00:01:33]  Is that possible?
[00:01:35]  Truly, like, can a man who murders four innocents like that for no reason actually love anybody?
[00:01:42]  Is that possible?
[00:01:44]  Anyway, there's so many things I want to get into.
[00:01:45]  The warrant, the supporting affidavit is so detailed.
[00:01:49]  My gosh, we know exactly how they found this guy.
[00:01:52]  Was he a, was he this genius killer or was he a moron?
[00:01:56]  Uh, so many things that I want to ask.
[00:01:58]  We're going to talk to this reporter who's been all over it.
[00:02:00]  Jonas Bilbor's got the legal angle.
[00:02:03]  And then again, the psychological angle.
[00:02:06]  Okay, first though, Kevin McCarthy's 12th bid to become Speaker of the House is about to begin.
[00:02:16]  12th, but 12th time could be a charm.
[00:02:18]  Could be.
[00:02:19]  At this hour, McCarthy believes he is in a better position than he was yesterday at this time.
[00:02:24]  And it may be true.
[00:02:26]  Joining me now to discuss the drama on Capitol Hill and his own drama of covering and breaking the Twitter files.
[00:02:33]  Matt Taibbi.
[00:02:34]  Matt runs the substack titled TK News.
[00:02:37]  Matt, welcome back.
[00:02:38]  How you doing?
[00:02:40]  I'm good, Megan.
[00:02:40]  Thank you.
[00:02:41]  Thanks, Travis.
[00:02:41]  All right, good.
[00:02:42]  That's good to see you.
[00:02:43]  My gosh, you must like, have you aged like 10 years in the past month or are you rejuvenated and feeling more spry than ever?
[00:02:51]  It's been nice this week.
[00:02:53]  This has been the first week that I've kind of come up for air a little bit.
[00:02:58]  But yeah, it was quite an intense month.
[00:03:00]  Let's put it that way.
[00:03:02]  Gosh, yes.
[00:03:02]  It's not done yet.
[00:03:04]  Not that we know of anyway.
[00:03:06]  Okay.
[00:03:07]  Well, I hope soon you get the leak of the Facebook files and the Google files.
[00:03:12]  That would be the next best interesting step, right?
[00:03:15]  Because you know it's not just Twitter.
[00:03:18]  Yeah, we actually concretely know it's not just Twitter because we've seen, you know, the emails back and forth about how what they called industry meetings with other companies and the FBI and the DHS.
[00:03:33]  And we know what those companies were.
[00:03:36]  One of them is Facebook that was attending those meetings and getting direction about what kinds of content they should be on the lookout for and things they might want to moderate and that sort of thing.
[00:03:49]  So yeah, it doesn't stop with Twitter.
[00:03:52]  Let's put it that way.
[00:03:53]  Yeah.
[00:03:53]  And it's everything.
[00:03:54]  I'm sure.
[00:03:55]  It's not just, quote, disinformation like the Hunter Biden laptop thing, which we know the FBI was sounding the alarm on falsely, but it's COVID suppression.
[00:04:06]  I mean, that's one of the main areas of suppression by these social media giants, stifling our conversation in robust terms.
[00:04:13]  Forget what you had to say, what I had to say, what Dr. Martin Kaldorf had to say, one of the things you guys broke of Harvard.
[00:04:21]  This is his business, vaccines and infectious diseases.
[00:04:24]  And they stifled him.
[00:04:25]  So if he could be stifled, any of us could be stifled, guaranteed, happening everywhere.
[00:04:30]  All right, updates to follow.
[00:04:31]  We're going to get to the Twitter files in a second, but let's just start on Capitol Hill.
[00:04:34]  I mean, it's really kind of like, I don't know, I'm not really a political person at heart.
[00:04:39]  I know some people think I am because I covered politics and I did all these debates.
[00:04:42]  And that's fine.
[00:04:43]  I think it's good to have some arm's length between you and this thing.
[00:04:46]  You know, I think it's better not to be personally invested.
[00:04:48]  I think you can kind of do a better job.
[00:04:50]  So I'm not like personally moved by anything happening on Capitol Hill, but I do think it's interesting how angry people within the Republican Party are.
[00:04:59]  My God, they're so ticked off at these 12 to 20 lawmakers who won't vote for McCarthy.
[00:05:06]  And then you have people who are like Eric Bowling was on the show yesterday saying, so what?
[00:05:10]  They're raising good objections.
[00:05:12]  Why shouldn't they give him a hard time?
[00:05:13]  Why should they just roll out the red carpet for Kevin McCarthy?
[00:05:15]  He's been a flip-flopper, right?
[00:05:17]  And now it looks like, Matt, they may, may have a deal.
[00:05:22]  There is a guy, we talked about him the other day.
[00:05:26]  Hold on a second.
[00:05:28]  Okay.
[00:05:29]  Jake Sherman.
[00:05:31]  And he is tweeting out that there is a deal.
[00:05:36]  He claims Kevin McCarthy announces on a GOP call that he and Chip Roy, one of his detractors on the other side for the House Freedom Caucus, have a deal.
[00:05:46]  Triple siren, he puts on this news.
[00:05:49]  And then there was pushback where McCarthy was saying, get off this call to reporters who are on it.
[00:05:56]  The reports that we have a deal are not true.
[00:05:59]  And then basically Jake is standing by his reporting saying they do have a deal.
[00:06:02]  So if that's true, Kevin McCarthy may be on his way to the speakership.
[00:06:05]  What do you make of all this?
[00:06:08]  I mean, I'm kind of with you that these sorts of stories don't really turn me on all that much, but the fur over this I find ridiculous.
[00:06:20]  I contrast this with the episode that we've probably all forgotten by now, but it was last fall.
[00:06:27]  There was a group of a very small group of progressives in the House who sent what they called the peace letter to the leaders of their party, which basically suggested that maybe we should keep a line open for negotiations to end the war in Ukraine.
[00:06:47]  And the instant that was leaked, every single member of that coalition caved and self-denounced and apologized for it.
[00:06:55]  And you contrast that with this small group of Republicans who are charging the absolute maximum politically to get their votes.
[00:07:07]  And that's exactly what you should do in politics.
[00:07:09]  That's what politics is for.
[00:07:11]  You shouldn't roll over and just give people your support for nothing.
[00:07:17]  You should charge as much as you can for it.
[00:07:20]  That's how this works.
[00:07:21]  And to see everybody freaking out about it is humorous to me.
[00:07:25]  I mean, it's not a clear, okay, this is the Trump contingent versus the more establishment Republicans.
[00:07:32]  It's not exactly one of those.
[00:07:33]  There are plenty of Trump loyalists, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Elise Stefanik, who are on the side of McCarthy.
[00:07:40]  And then there are some who are in the objecting crew who are kind of ridiculing Trump a bit, like Matt Gates right now is ripping on Trump, but he's still a Trump kind of bootlicker, to be honest.
[00:07:51]  So in any event, it doesn't clearly break down along those lines, but it does have the flavor of establishment, Chamber of Commerce, Republicans with the libs being like, this is the proper way forward.
[00:08:07]  And then the insurgent, more Trumpy type candidates with the middle finger saying, you know, we're going to do it our way.
[00:08:14]  Now, of course, the ultimate irony is Trump too is backing Kevin McCarthy.
[00:08:18]  But those 12 to 20 are saying, we don't really care.
[00:08:21]  You're not our leader.
[00:08:22]  We're going to do what we want.
[00:08:25]  This is a phenomenon that I've been fascinated by.
[00:08:28]  I covered a lot of presidential campaigns and there's a mindset that I think that infects politicians when they've been in Washington too long, where they think that, you know, because they're next in line, that when a spot opens up, either it's a committee chair spot or whether it's time to run for president or time to be the house person who goes and runs for senator in your state.
[00:08:56]  They think that when, you know, because you've served your time in line, that, you know, you get the job.
[00:09:03]  Well, it doesn't work that way.
[00:09:04]  You actually have to be popular in politics.
[00:09:06]  You have to have backing.
[00:09:07]  And they always bypass that part of it.
[00:09:10]  They think that they somehow don't have to be answerable to voters.
[00:09:15]  And we've seen this repeatedly since, especially since 2016, where I think a lot of the disgust towards both Trump and Bernie Sanders was revulsion by the political establishment that these people hadn't paid their dues yet, that they were getting votes without having gone up through the system.
[00:09:34]  And that's not how it works.
[00:09:35]  You know, voters choose who they choose and, you know, you got to deal with it.
[00:09:41]  The mainstream media wants to make it all about Trump.
[00:09:43]  Trump came out and said, vote for McCarthy, right?
[00:09:47]  McCarthy went down there and kind of put his arm around Trump not long after January 6th.
[00:09:51]  First, he condemned Trump for January 6th.
[00:09:53]  Then he went down to Mar-a-Lago, put his arm around him, sort of helped say he's okay to associate with, notwithstanding Jan 6th.
[00:10:02]  And Trump came out and said, vote for McCarthy, right?
[00:10:04]  Which now he didn't like go full Trump, right?
[00:10:08]  He's got other tools in his arsenal if he really wants to shame you into voting for Kevin.
[00:10:14]  And he did not unleash those.
[00:10:16]  But still, to pick up any paper or watch any cable news show right now would make you think Trump is a failure.
[00:10:23]  Trump has no more power.
[00:10:25]  Trump is weak.
[00:10:26]  Trump can't do anything.
[00:10:28]  And again, it's like you can see the saliva coming out of their mouths.
[00:10:33]  You know, I think savvy political watchers by this point would be like, all right, you know what?
[00:10:37]  Calm down.
[00:10:38]  Calm down.
[00:10:39]  As Hemmer used to say to me, he used to annoy me.
[00:10:42]  Sim the myrrh.
[00:10:43]  Sim the myrrh.
[00:10:45]  The narrative about Trump being dead started.
[00:10:50]  Oh, they've done it a million times, but the most recent incarnation of it began even before the ending of, you know, look within an hour of the results starting to become clear on election night last year, you know, that this was a massive final repudiation of Donald Trump.
[00:11:10]  Trump is dead.
[00:11:11]  I had somebody ask me on some show, is Trump dead?
[00:11:14]  I'm like, of course he's not dead.
[00:11:16]  I mean, if you lived through the whole Trump era, I remember pronouncing him making the mistake of writing in print that Trump was dead after the Access Hollywood episode.
[00:11:28]  And, you know, I'm never going to make that mistake again.
[00:11:32]  This guy has a thousand lives politically.
[00:11:35]  And, you know, it's wish cat.
[00:11:37]  It's, you know, this is the whole a dream is a wish that your heart makes thing.
[00:11:42]  People want him to be dead.
[00:11:43]  And that's not the same as him being dead.
[00:11:46]  Right.
[00:11:46]  And it's mostly Republicans at this point, right?
[00:11:48]  Because the truth is, the left wing would love to see Trump live on, get the nomination, and in their estimation, likely lose to candidate Biden, you know, for a reelection.
[00:11:59]  But it's the Republicans.
[00:12:00]  I've talked to so many Republicans over the Christmas break.
[00:12:03]  I talked to so many well-known Republicans, big money donors, who are all basically saying, if this is how it has to play out, then this is how it has to play out.
[00:12:13]  Like if Trump, the guy we elevated, the guy we elected, the guy we made president, insists on being a spoiler, a third party candidate, running again, taking down DeSantis with tweets and whatever, then, you know, this is our bed.
[00:12:27]  We're going to have to lie in it.
[00:12:30]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:12:32]  But, and, and conversely, the Democrats who might be salivating to take on Trump, I would really question that kind of thinking as well, right?
[00:12:44]  Like they, people have constantly misjudged this political phenomenon, uh, and they've done it over and over and over again.
[00:12:52]  They're either overconfident about their chances against them, um, but you know, the proper attitude is just to recognize that this is a this is a lasting political phenomenon that has to be dealt with on its own terms.
[00:13:06]  You know, there's a desire to kind of make it go away on the part of a lot of people, and that's not going to happen, I don't think.
[00:13:14]  But really, if Trump came back after January 6th, and he did, because the majority of the Republican Party continued to support him after January 6th and continued and actually bought the story that the election was stolen, bought it, and continues to buy it a majority, then he's not politically killable.
[00:13:33]  You know, like if Jan 6th didn't do it, it's not going to get done.
[00:13:37]  And now we're actually just getting, so first of all, the January 6th committee has now gone away, right?
[00:13:42]  Because the Democrats lost the House.
[00:13:44]  And we're getting more and more sort of evidence on the other side.
[00:13:48]  For example, the former Capitol Police chief now has a book, a new book out called Courage Under Fire.
[00:13:56]  He was the chief during the riot.
[00:13:59]  And it's got a lengthy minute-by-minute recounting of the chaos on Jan 6th.
[00:14:02]  And he spreads the blame around for this attack, but really he takes aim at federal intelligence officials who failed to raise alarms before the riot.
[00:14:11]  And a military bureaucracy, he said, waited too long to respond.
[00:14:15]  So he says the FBI, Homeland Security, Department of Defense all had intel that should have had them seeing red, but they instead failed to warn us at the Capitol Police, he says.
[00:14:26]  There were people clearly calling for storming the Capitol, but DHS didn't put out a bulletin.
[00:14:32]  DHS didn't even put out a warning.
[00:14:34]  It says the Pentagon was more concerned about optics than quickly deploying the National Guard during the attack.
[00:14:40]  And really says, like, they hamstrung the Capitol Police from keeping the building safe.
[00:14:46]  And yet, accurately, Matt points out, that portion, there was a group on the January 6th committee devoted to looking into the law enforcement response, the intel response.
[00:14:58]  And oh, it got shelved by the end.
[00:15:01]  By the end of the whole process, the leaders didn't have much interest in that.
[00:15:04]  They really just wanted to focus on Trump.
[00:15:07]  And even Jan 6th committee people who were on those committees got pissed and went to the papers and started leaking how mad they were that this had been tabled.
[00:15:14]  But the law enforcement piece of this has been totally silenced.

=== Root of Public Mistrust (06:45) ===

[00:15:17]  And you know what, to this guy's credit, he's speaking out.
[00:15:20]  His name is Stephen Sund about what the truth was there.
[00:15:26]  Yeah, and that's a classic example of why the Trump phenomenon continues because people, as much as Trump's detractors want The focus of the story to be on Trump, the personality, Trump, the supposedly limitly, you know, the person of limitless corruption who does all these terrible things and says all these, you know, unforgivable things, as you know personally.
[00:15:56]  But the real root of his popularity is the kind of snowballing mistrust that the public has in sort of once popular institutions like the media, like law enforcement, like Congress, like the presidency even.
[00:16:15]  And what Trump does very cannily and, you know, very instinctually is he channels public mistrust about all sorts of institutions into support for him.
[00:16:31]  He says, look, they're lying to you about all these things.
[00:16:34]  They're also lying about me.
[00:16:36]  I'm on your side.
[00:16:37]  They're not on your side.
[00:16:39]  And look, until these institutions address their own mistrust problem, they're not going to solve the Trump problem because those two things are connected.
[00:16:48]  And people in Washington have not put those two things together.
[00:16:52]  That's very interesting.
[00:16:53]  And there's no desire.
[00:16:55]  I mean, of course, people like DeSantis, I think, would like to see the FBI taken down to the studs.
[00:17:00]  However, he's got a long way to go before he's in a position to make that happen.
[00:17:04]  And on the other side, you've just been through, you know, weeks of this.
[00:17:09]  There's just denialism.
[00:17:10]  There's just, there's denialism that there's a problem.
[00:17:13]  And in fact, to the extent there is an issue, they think it's a plus.
[00:17:18]  They like to see the FBI and DHS and the Pentagon and CIA acting in concert with the Democratic Party's goals, their definitions of misinformation, disinformation, who should be a criminal target like James O'Keefe for trying to look into whether he should publish Ashley Biden's diary, right?
[00:17:40]  Like going after raiding a journalist's home because he considered publishing the president's daughter's diary that somebody took from her that she left behind in some drug rehab place.
[00:17:51]  I mean, they like it.
[00:17:52]  They're pro all of it, Matt.
[00:17:54]  So you're right.
[00:17:55]  I mean, I guess having come through this, how bad is that problem?
[00:17:59]  How is there any is there any daylight between the Democrats and these policies?
[00:18:06]  Could they be persuaded to step away in the name of restoring faith in the agencies?
[00:18:12]  You know, I don't think so.
[00:18:13]  I remember, and I've told this story before, but I remember the first times that I covered Trump and being on the riser in the press section.
[00:18:24]  And Trump, this was early in his campaign.
[00:18:28]  He would do things like, oh, look at those bloodsuckers.
[00:18:30]  You know, they hate you.
[00:18:31]  They're lying to you.
[00:18:33]  Like, you know, they pretend they're not interested in my campaign, but look at how far they've come for this event.
[00:18:40]  And people would look at us and boo and hiss.
[00:18:42]  And then, you know, within a couple of weeks, they were throwing stuff at us.
[00:18:46]  And then it got more intense after that.
[00:18:48]  And I realized right away what the deal was.
[00:18:50]  Like that Trump was identifying the news media as elitist, out of touch, urban liberals for the most part, but more, I think the elitist tag was more important than the liberal tag.
[00:19:08]  And he was succeeding in doing it primarily because it's true.
[00:19:13]  I mean, you know, the people who are in the national news media, I really want to differentiate between that, the national and the local reporters who actually have beats and go to courthouses and do stuff like that.
[00:19:25]  The national news media is just out of touch with how ordinary people live.
[00:19:29]  And they're in denial about that.
[00:19:32]  They don't see it as a problem.
[00:19:34]  And until they recognize that, there's going to be that gap you talk about.
[00:19:40]  They're just not going to be able to see the phenomena coming their way.
[00:19:45]  And I'm beginning to think it's an unbridgeable problem.
[00:19:51]  I mean, certainly with the Democrats in power, it's not going to change.
[00:19:55]  That's just the truth.
[00:19:56]  And, you know, we've had so many former FBI, CIA officials come out and lament.
[00:20:01]  what those agencies have become and how important those agencies are.
[00:20:05]  You know, I mean, later we're going to talk about this Idaho quadruple murder and how the FBI played this critical role in arresting this suspect.
[00:20:13]  We need the FBI.
[00:20:15]  The FBI does a lot of really good and important things.
[00:20:18]  They were never meant to be like this domestic intel agency as opposed to an assistant in fighting crime domestically, like another avenue and branch of fighting crime domestically.
[00:20:32]  Yeah, and I've written a number of stories about this, about how after the church committing hearing, I'm sorry, the church committee hearings in the 70s, there was sort of dramatic reform of the FBI and the CIA, and there was a new guidance that you had to have some kind of criminal hint of criminal activity for the FBI to begin an investigation of a person.
[00:20:55]  Well, after 9-11, they began to roll those guidances back, and the FBI reignited sort of the tradition that had begun under Hoover, where they were, on the one hand, a crime fighting agency, but that became subordinate to their role as a domestic intelligence agency that just gathers a lot of information, often with no prosecution in sight.
[00:21:22]  They're not necessarily gathering information for a future case.
[00:21:27]  They're just gathering information.
[00:21:29]  I don't think that's a legitimate purpose for them.
[00:21:32]  And I don't think the public likes it either.
[00:21:34]  I think they would prefer to see the FBI doing things like arresting that Idaho suspect or chasing child pornographers and doing all these other important things that they need to be doing.
[00:21:46]  Yeah, not investigating parents at school board meetings and not putting infiltrators in January 6th groups and trying to incite alleged kidnappings of Michigan governors and so on, right?
[00:22:00]  Like they really talk about mission creep.

=== Governments Control Social Media (15:54) ===

[00:22:03]  My God.
[00:22:04]  We had a former FBI guy come on and tell us it was George Tennant under George W. Bush after 9-11.
[00:22:09]  And the edict went out.
[00:22:11]  It's very clear.
[00:22:12]  Intel is the way.
[00:22:13]  That's what W. Bush wanted.
[00:22:15]  That's what the FBI decided they were doing.
[00:22:17]  And they've never gotten off of that.
[00:22:18]  You know, we're 21 years post 9-11 and they never got off of it.
[00:22:22]  And really, it's had severe effects and it's been politicized, which is its ultimate sin.
[00:22:27]  All right.
[00:22:27]  So that let's turn the page and talk about what you've been learning because it does involve the FBI and it involves social media.
[00:22:34]  And look, if you're an American, social media affects your life.
[00:22:37]  Even if you're not like all over Twitter, virtually everybody's on Facebook or on TikTok or on one of these apps for a reason.
[00:22:46]  And you may not have any idea how you're being manipulated or how your messaging is being suppressed.
[00:22:52]  You may have, in fact, the odds are you have no idea.
[00:22:55]  So you are truly the first reporter who got a close look at exactly how it has been done over the past couple of years at one of the biggest social media giants, Twitter, because Elon Musk chose you to break news on this.
[00:23:10]  He bought Twitter and saw some horrific things and said, my God, who do I trust with this information?
[00:23:16]  So let's just back up to the moment of like you finding out that he had chosen you.
[00:23:20]  Like what, what happened?
[00:23:22]  Did you open a candy bar and see a golden ticket?
[00:23:24]  Like what, how did, how did you find out?
[00:23:27]  So funny, my, my wife made the golden ticket analogy a little while ago, too.
[00:23:33]  All good women of the 70s have that in our hearts.
[00:23:37]  Yeah, it's a good analogy.
[00:23:40]  Look, yeah, obviously I was excited.
[00:23:46]  It's been, I've been just like any other American, I think, in the last seven years who's had this creeping suspicion that my perception of reality wasn't quite matching what I was reading in the news.
[00:23:59]  And I work in the news, right?
[00:24:00]  So this was very upsetting to me.
[00:24:03]  I had this feeling dating back to 2016.
[00:24:07]  I think really the first indication for me was the Russia story, where I felt like what I'm seeing is not lining up with what everybody else in the business is reporting.
[00:24:18]  And I started to have this belief that, you know, some that reality itself was being manipulated in some way.
[00:24:27]  And, you know, the Twitter files have been a revelation and in a way, kind of a psychological bomb for all of us who've worked on it because it's ratified a lot of what we've suspected over the years.
[00:24:42]  There's two major things that we've learned from the Twitter file so far that we can say with absolute certainty.
[00:24:48]  One is that shadow banning exists.
[00:24:51]  You know, the thing that people denied for years and years and years, well, that's absolutely true.
[00:24:58]  You know, in Twitter, they call it visibility filtering, and they have almost total control over how much one account can be seen versus another.
[00:25:08]  They can dial a person all the way down to unsearchable, and they can amplify the account to being the most watched thing on Twitter.
[00:25:16]  And they have a hundred gradations in between.
[00:25:19]  The other big thing is they have an extraordinarily sophisticated system in place with both state and federal government agencies in which they receive mountains of requests for moderation on a daily basis.
[00:25:37]  And they're coming.
[00:25:38]  Let me pause you there.
[00:25:38]  Let me pause you there because I definitely want to get to all that.
[00:25:41]  On the shadow banning, you guys found a couple of specific examples.
[00:25:44]  I'm trying to think like maybe Charlie Kirk was one.
[00:25:47]  Dan Bongino was definitely one.
[00:25:50]  Was it just those two?
[00:25:51]  Like, or like who else has been shadow banned?
[00:25:55]  And are we to believe it goes beyond them?
[00:25:58]  Oh, it goes beyond them for sure.
[00:25:59]  I mean, I think they had Jay Bhattacharya, the Stanford doctor, in there.
[00:26:03]  They had Libs of TikTok.
[00:26:05]  Now, one of the problems was we were looking at a very select group of cases that Twitter has this thing they call SIP-PES.
[00:26:21]  And this is like their Supreme Court of censorship when they have very difficult cases.
[00:26:26]  These get escalated.
[00:26:27]  So we were looking at those to begin with.
[00:26:30]  But everybody has what they call a PV2 page, which is this viewer.
[00:26:36]  And on everybody's page, you might find a little notation that says something like trans blacklist on it or do not amplify.
[00:26:48]  And that's unmistakably true.
[00:26:52]  We found that in countless cases.
[00:26:55]  Do you have any idea the scope of that in terms of the number?
[00:26:57]  Could it have been hundreds of thousands of people who had that?
[00:27:00]  Thousands, dozens?
[00:27:02]  What's the scope?
[00:27:05]  We haven't done a quantitative analysis yet of it because we don't have the full set of everything in front of us.
[00:27:13]  But anecdotally, I would say that it's an enormous number.
[00:27:18]  I think hundreds of thousands would probably be a very conservative number because what they're doing in many cases is they're a lot of these accounts are being classified in a certain way thanks to automated procedures.
[00:27:34]  So if you happen to fall into a bucket that's a, that's been classified, do not trend, you know, you might be one of a thousand people that gets that designation.
[00:27:45]  I've seen personally that the government will send in requests with a list of accounts that are suspect for one reason or another.
[00:27:55]  And I'll look them up and they're all suspended.
[00:27:58]  So, you know, I think the number is enormous.
[00:28:02]  And again, I can't stress enough, the tools they had are highly idiosyncratic.
[00:28:09]  Like you can be visible to only your followers.
[00:28:12]  You can be searched by only your followers.
[00:28:13]  You can be retweeted only by certain kinds of people.
[00:28:16]  I mean, like, it's not just a couple of things.
[00:28:19]  It's, it's, you know, it's a huge number of tools that they had.
[00:28:24]  I, I'm like, I've said this before, but I have to tell you, like, I always wondered whether I was on some sort of a list because I had like 2.5 million Twitter followers.
[00:28:31]  And then there was a good, I don't know, year and a half where I literally like added not one.
[00:28:37]  And it made no sense to me because, okay, fine.
[00:28:40]  For part of that, I was off the air.
[00:28:42]  I was more silent.
[00:28:43]  Maybe that's, but still, you'd be adding a few here and there.
[00:28:47]  And then I launched my show and that would definitely be an event where you'd amass more.
[00:28:53]  Nope.
[00:28:54]  But, you know, you never know.
[00:28:55]  You're like, okay, maybe I've just reached my saturation point on Twitter.
[00:28:58]  That's fine too.
[00:28:58]  Who cares?
[00:28:59]  Whatever.
[00:29:00]  But I've always wondered because as soon as Elon took over, boom.
[00:29:04]  And I've added almost another 100,000, right?
[00:29:06]  Since he, just in the past few months.
[00:29:08]  So that's anecdotal could mean absolutely nothing, right?
[00:29:12]  But I'm sure I've read, I've seen on Twitter, there are a lot of people just like me.
[00:29:16]  They're all on the right or perceived as on the right who have had the same quote problem.
[00:29:23]  Yeah, I mean, there's some people on the other side too, for sure.
[00:29:26]  I mean, there's Julian Assange.
[00:29:28]  There's, you know, the World Socialist website, believe it or not, had some issues.
[00:29:35]  But yeah, absolutely, there are a lot of people who had that problem.
[00:29:40]  There are a lot of people who've had the same experience that you had.
[00:29:43]  I had that experience where my follower account was basically frozen on a number for a year and a half.
[00:29:50]  Right.
[00:29:50]  I couldn't quite figure out why.
[00:29:52]  Like, I mean, maybe I'm unpopular.
[00:29:55]  That's fine, you know, if that's the case, but it seemed unnatural for sure.
[00:29:59]  Yes, most of us are too humble.
[00:30:01]  Most of us are too humble to blame anyone other than ourselves, right?
[00:30:04]  It's like, oh, I guess people aren't interested.
[00:30:06]  Fine, okay.
[00:30:07]  But now, like with it shifting so rapidly once Elon took over, you're like, okay, this is, as my daughter would say, sussy baka.
[00:30:16]  Okay, so that brings us to point two, which is the coordination with the law enforcement, with the intel agencies, which is far more problematic.
[00:30:23]  I mean, frankly, it's like, okay, your ego gets dinged up when they shadow ban you and they don't disclose it and they say they don't do it.
[00:30:28]  So those are problems, but coordination with the government on suppressing First Amendment speech is something very, very different.
[00:30:36]  And Matt knows all about that.
[00:30:38]  He's neck deep in it.
[00:30:39]  We're going to talk to him about that after this very quick break.
[00:30:41]  Stand by, Matt Taibbi.
[00:30:42]  We continue with him in just a couple of minutes.
[00:30:48]  So Matt, you were getting to point number two before I stopped you, just to pause on shadow banning in terms of the main things you learned in your Twitter file reporting.
[00:30:57]  So go ahead on point number two.
[00:30:58]  Yeah, so very early in the process when we were looking at the period before the election in 2020, we started to see Slack communications between Twitter employees and they would say things like DHS flags this or the FBI flags that.
[00:31:18]  and then there would be a list of accounts and uh you know we raised eyebrows we're like we you know obviously we had heard rumors that that might be the case but we didn't know for sure what that meant um and then we started digging and before long we ended up finding that there's an incredibly elaborate formalized system um by which not just Facebook,
[00:31:47]  but not just Twitter, but a whole series of tech companies is in contact with the federal government, actually both the FBI and DHS, and they're receiving requests for moderation in bulk from those agencies.
[00:32:06]  In Twitter's case, the setup basically is that requests that come up through the states go through DHS through a system called HISN.
[00:32:16]  And the FBI will pass on requests that come from the federal government.
[00:32:22]  And that can be anything from HHS to Treasury to what they call other government agencies, which I think is the CIA.
[00:32:30]  The CIA is definitely listening in to meetings with these companies.
[00:32:35]  We've seen evidence of that.
[00:32:37]  So it's incredible.
[00:32:39]  Like, I was really blown away by the breadth of this program.
[00:32:45]  I thought it might be much more informal than it is.
[00:32:48]  It's not.
[00:32:49]  It's quite formal.
[00:32:50]  All right.
[00:32:50]  So what's the response to, you know, there's no question that, for example, Russia did interfere with the 2016 election, not in the way the Democrats allege, but they definitely had bots purveying disinformation, misinformation online.
[00:33:04]  They'd come up with fake news stories, which then the bots would circulate so it would get in front of certain viewers.
[00:33:10]  And all they really wanted to do was sew Discord.
[00:33:12]  They put out pro-BLM stuff and anti-BLM stuff and then watch us fight.
[00:33:16]  I mean, that was their MO.
[00:33:18]  And so the FBI had it.
[00:33:21]  I think we might need to recalibrate how much of that turned out to be true.
[00:33:26]  It might be a much smaller program than we've been told.
[00:33:29]  But anyway, go ahead.
[00:33:30]  Okay.
[00:33:30]  So, but they did it.
[00:33:31]  And the FBI was tasked with looking at that and figuring out how are they doing that?
[00:33:36]  What's real?
[00:33:36]  What's not real?
[00:33:37]  What do we correct?
[00:33:38]  So this is all along the lines of their defense.
[00:33:41]  You know, we have a real role in preventing the actual bad guys from messing with our internal dialogue as Americans.
[00:33:50]  And we're living up to that role, right?
[00:33:52]  That's their defense.
[00:33:53]  Like, why wouldn't we meet with Facebook and Twitter so we could prevent what happened in 16 from ever happening again?
[00:34:01]  Well, I give a couple of answers to that, but the first one is that internally we have an enormous quantity of evidence of communications between Twitter personnel who've been passed along lists where the government asserts that this or that account is a Russia-linked account or an Iran-linked account or a Chinese-linked account.
[00:34:27]  And they're saying we're just not seeing it, you know, like over and over again.
[00:34:32]  There's a very significant email that I found where the State Department had passed on a series of accounts that it asserted were controlled by the GRU.
[00:34:44]  And there's a Twitter executive who incidentally is a former CIA person himself.
[00:34:51]  And he's writing an email and saying, look, I know this account.
[00:34:56]  My attitude in the past has always been to wait for more evidence on that.
[00:35:03]  But he says our window on that is closing.
[00:35:05]  Our government partners, he uses that term, our government partners, have become more aggressive.
[00:35:11]  And so essentially what he's saying is if they say it's Russia-linked, we have to agree that it's Russia-linked, even if we're not seeing the evidence.
[00:35:22]  And just quickly, Twitter had a formal internal guidance where they said, publicly, we are going to assert that we only remove content at our sole discretion.
[00:35:33]  Privately, we will remove any content that the United States Intelligence Agency identifies as a foreign state actor committing cyber operations.
[00:35:44]  So that is in writing.
[00:35:46]  And so we now know for a fact that they do that.
[00:35:51]  And I think some of those stories about foreign influence, from what we've seen, have been significantly overblown.
[00:36:00]  Wow.
[00:36:01]  Wow.
[00:36:02]  I mean, it's crazy to have, you know, the dress was lifted and you got to see all the things and the things were not pretty.
[00:36:08]  They're not pretty.
[00:36:10]  So we're, after having looked at all this, and you're in the midst of it, as you point out, it's not done.
[00:36:15]  Like, where do you stand on it?
[00:36:16]  How has it changed?
[00:36:17]  You were already suspicious of an overbearing government getting too involved in private affairs and silencing speech and working behind the scenes to do things we didn't want them to do.
[00:36:28]  So where do you stand now?
[00:36:29]  How does Matt Taibbi look at the government, the world, and America after seeing all this stuff?
[00:36:35]  Well, I think the Twitter heading into 2016, and let's not forget, Donald Trump's ability and his mastery of Twitter was a crucial element in him in winning the election that year.
[00:36:52]  My sense, my sense of the meta story behind the Twitter files is that not just the United States, but governments like the EU and some others realized that social media was a problem that they had to get under control.
[00:37:10]  And what we're seeing in these files is a rather extensive effort and an insistent effort to to to basically take over and appropriate the moderation and content review procedures of all of these private companies.
[00:37:30]  Because instead of being a social media platform that is anarchic in nature and allows political movements to coalesce.
[00:37:41]  quickly and outside of government control, they're attempting to turn it into an instrument of government control.
[00:37:49]  And I think that's quite scary.
[00:37:51]  And people need to, this issue needs to be raised at a high level.

=== NFL Navigates Tension (05:15) ===

[00:37:57]  I mean, I don't know how it's going to work out for Elon financially, but just these revelations alone, to me, easy for me to say, were worth the price he paid.
[00:38:08]  He did America a massive service.
[00:38:12]  And thank you for being part of exposing the details on it.
[00:38:16]  Matt Taibbi, always a pleasure, sir.
[00:38:17]  We'll look forward to the next edition.
[00:38:19]  Thank you, Megan.
[00:38:20]  Thanks for having me on.
[00:38:21]  All right.
[00:38:23]  And don't forget, you can follow Matt at TK News on Substack.
[00:38:27]  Coming up, I'm going to answer some of your questions in the MK mailbag.
[00:38:32]  You can mail me now at Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at megankelly.com.
[00:38:38]  That's where you can also sign up for our American News Minute.
[00:38:42]  It's going to go out in about two hours, and it's basically highlights of the entire week in 60 seconds or less.
[00:38:50]  And then if you want to keep reading after that, you'll see some fun highlights from the show over the course of the week, some more in-depth pieces if you're interested in that.
[00:38:58]  And of course, we've always got our update on Strudwick.
[00:39:01]  Wait until you hear what he did when we tried to innocently sit down for Chicken Tika Masala two nights ago.
[00:39:09]  Go to MeganKelly.com to check it out.
[00:39:11]  And don't forget, folks, you can follow us live on SiriusXM Triumph Channel 111 every weekday at noon East.
[00:39:17]  Go ahead and check us out on youtube.com slash MeganKelly.
[00:39:19]  We just topped the 700,000 follower mark.
[00:39:22]  Thank you guys for that.
[00:39:24]  That's thanks to all of you, and I'm grateful.
[00:39:26]  Audio podcast, of course, wherever you get your podcast for free.
[00:39:30]  And check out our archives while you're nosing around over there now.
[00:39:32]  More than 465 shows.
[00:39:38]  It's time for the first MK mailbag of 2023, where I answer your questions or just read your emails that you have sent to me at Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at megankelly.com.
[00:39:52]  Love this.
[00:39:52]  And I love, love, love getting your mail.
[00:39:56]  So please continue sending it because it's become the main place where I get your feedback on the show, good, bad, or ugly.
[00:40:01]  Always appreciate hearing from you guys.
[00:40:03]  So here's a couple.
[00:40:04]  We had a debate the other day about what happened to poor DeMar Hamlin and the updates have gotten better on him.
[00:40:09]  Thank God.
[00:40:10]  Thank God they got.
[00:40:12]  But we debated the Skip Bayless tweet when Eric Bowling was on about it was while DeMar Hamlin was down and he tweeted about how the NFL was going to have to decide whether to continue this game, but how could they possibly not given how close we are to the end of the season?
[00:40:29]  But it all seems so insignificant now, you know, in light of what's happened on the field.
[00:40:33]  Well, Eric was mad at Skip Bayless.
[00:40:36]  I defended Skip, but Eric's point was maybe the tweet would have been okay, but not while the guy's down on the field and his heart isn't beating.
[00:40:43]  Like have some, have some heart.
[00:40:46]  And then I revealed to the audience that Canadian Debbie, my longtime producer, we've been together America's Newsroom, America Live, the Kelly File, NBC.
[00:40:53]  We've been together forever.
[00:40:56]  She's my producer alter ego.
[00:40:58]  She was very hardcore on Skip Bayless did nothing wrong.
[00:41:02]  That, excuse me, that he had a right to do it.
[00:41:05]  He was a journalist.
[00:41:06]  It's his job to think about things like this.
[00:41:08]  And the audience, I mean, everybody who emailed agrees with Debbie.
[00:41:13]  Here's one from Erica.
[00:41:15]  We're curious, often nosy people.
[00:41:17]  It feels the same to me as when there's a tragic airline crash, a natural disaster, or even a horrific car accident.
[00:41:22]  We drive by, we send prayers and love, but we always ask what happened.
[00:41:26]  It's a natural human response.
[00:41:29]  Darla in Iowa says Skip's tweet was true and presented the tension that the NFL will be navigating while trying to put it in the proper perspective in the moment, which I agree with Canadian Debbie is his job.
[00:41:40]  Could you find reasons to be offended by the tweet if that was the goal?
[00:41:42]  Clearly, the answer is yes for many, but I think an objective reading of the tweet renders it quite benign.
[00:41:48]  Craig writes in, I had not considered Mr. Bowling's point that the tweet occurred while DeMar laid on the field.
[00:41:54]  However, I agree with Canadian Debbie.
[00:41:56]  I don't have an issue with his tweet, never did.
[00:41:59]  I felt his tweet was one of the more genuine and rational of those that were questioned.
[00:42:04]  So that's just a sampling, but everybody agreed with Canadian Debbie, did not think Skip did anything wrong.
[00:42:11]  Canadian Debbie says she loves our listeners.
[00:42:15]  Debbie do.
[00:42:16]  We call her Canadian Debbie because she used to be American Debbie.
[00:42:19]  She grew up in Ohio, but then she married a damn Canadian and moved to damn Canada, had a bunch of damn Canadian children.
[00:42:25]  I love them all, but I'm just mad that Canadian Debbie moved away from me.
[00:42:29]  I'm getting over it.
[00:42:30]  It's been like 10, 12.
[00:42:31]  How many years, Deb?
[00:42:32]  It's been a decade.
[00:42:33]  Okay.
[00:42:34]  Barbara Walters, of course, the legendary newscaster, Trailblazer, died this past week at the age of 93, I think, 93 or 94.
[00:42:45]  And we talked on the show about the barrier she broke, but also some other lessons I learned from Barbara Walters, including what not to do in the parenting field.
[00:42:56]  And I learned all those lessons from her book.
[00:42:59]  Her memoir called Audition, which came out in 2008, was very eye-opening for me.
[00:43:06]  As a young mother, I was about to become a mother, a young bride at that point, and I hadn't yet had my first child.

=== Lessons from Barbara Walters (15:57) ===

[00:43:12]  He would come in 2009, then another in 11, another in 13.
[00:43:16]  And her mistakes in the parenting lane were horrifying.
[00:43:19]  George writes in, Your scorching indictment of Barbara Walters' mothering took guts.
[00:43:23]  And I deeply admire your continuing commitment to follow the truth wherever it leads.
[00:43:27]  You chose to highlight what is one of the worst phenomena in our century, the degradation of motherhood.
[00:43:33]  Thank you for that, George.
[00:43:34]  Some people thought I was too hard on her.
[00:43:36]  I get that too.
[00:43:38]  Somebody calls themselves D says, you do such a good job talking about being friends with people you disagree with.
[00:43:44]  One of my best and longest friends cut me out of her life earlier when I said I disagreed on the COVID vaccine.
[00:43:49]  Stand by my view, but it still hurts.
[00:43:50]  I'd like to repair that relationship eventually.
[00:43:52]  Any advice?
[00:43:53]  D, don't do it.
[00:43:54]  D, your friend sounds like a loser.
[00:43:57]  D, if your friend cuts you off because of your position on the COVID vaccine, that's a message from the Lord telling you to move on and you should listen to the Lord.
[00:44:05]  You can find truer and better friends.
[00:44:07]  Send me an email at Megan, M-E-G-Y-N at MeganKelly.com and subscribe while you're there to our American News Minute.
[00:44:15]  Back with a deep dive on Idaho.
[00:44:17]  Don't go away.
[00:44:20]  For the first time, we have gotten a look at the evidence used to arrest the man suspected of killing those four Idaho college students in November.
[00:44:28]  The 19-page affidavit is extremely detailed, alleging the suspect left behind a crucial piece of evidence at the scene, discussing how authorities say his car and DNA links him to the crime, and revealing that he may have been stalking his victims for months, may have gone by their house and sat outside potentially as many as 12 times from the period of August through the early morning hours of November 13th, when the four young,
[00:44:58]  promising college students were murdered in cold blood.
[00:45:01]  Three young women and a young man, the boyfriend of one of the women murdered.
[00:45:05]  Shockingly, we also have learned that one of the surviving roommates apparently saw the killer while he was in her house on the night of the attack, of the attack.
[00:45:14]  Don't forget there were two people who shared this house who were not murdered, who are said to be in the home on the night in question, one of whom laid eyes on the killer, raising questions about why she and the others did not call.
[00:45:29]  The other did not call 911 until almost eight hours after the victims were stabbed to death.
[00:45:36]  Joining me now with all the latest is Brian Enton.
[00:45:38]  He's senior national correspondent for News Nation.
[00:45:41]  He was in the Idaho courtroom yesterday as the accused killer faced the judge and some of the victims' relatives who showed up.
[00:45:49]  And with us shortly, Jonas Bilborough will join as criminal defense attorney, founding attorney of Jonas Bilborough.
[00:45:54]  Law later will go into the mind of this killer with the specialist.
[00:45:58]  Okay, so thank you so much for being here, first of all, Brian.
[00:46:00]  And let's talk about the affidavit because that's where all of the relevant information is.
[00:46:07]  It lays out in great detail the timeline of the attack, which we didn't have before.
[00:46:10]  The police concluded that it occurred between 4 a.m. and 4.25 a.m. on the early morning hours of November 13th.
[00:46:20]  And it's one of the things that's crazy to me is these students only got home moments before that.
[00:46:26]  I mean, this guy definitely was watching them and waiting until they got in.
[00:46:31]  He must have waited until they were somewhat settled, too, because we know from the affidavit, one of them, at least one of them, ordered DoorDash, a delivery that was said to arrive at 4 a.m.
[00:46:42]  So this guy was watching and waiting.
[00:46:46]  And it must have been a very tight timeline from when they fell asleep or got in bed to when he walked in.
[00:46:50]  Yeah, Megan, thank you for having me.
[00:46:52]  According to the affidavit, the suspect was in the area of the house at least 12 times in the days and weeks leading up to the murders.
[00:47:03]  They think perhaps stalking the house.
[00:47:05]  The cell phone data picks him up right before the murders near the house, and then it picks him up after the murders.
[00:47:13]  But according to the affidavit and what the detectives say, they believe he may have turned off his cell phone or put it on airplane mode during the time that the actual murders were committed.
[00:47:24]  Between 3 a.m. and 5 a.m., they do not detect his cell phone pinging off of any towers, which suggests it was either in airplane mode or off, or he didn't bring it with him, which almost is more incriminating now because they have him there.
[00:47:38]  They have him in the area before and they have him in the area after with the pinging and with the video camera of his car.
[00:47:47]  But clearly, he turned off his phone for the actual murders.
[00:47:50]  So this is one of the things that has people thinking maybe he's not that smart.
[00:47:53]  Like who takes their cell phone to go commit a murder?
[00:47:55]  Everybody knows they can track you with this thing.
[00:47:59]  The stalking is interesting.
[00:48:01]  We still don't know how, if at all, he met any of the victims, if he had met any of the victims.
[00:48:07]  One of the victims' parents has said they believe that there was some connections between this man, Brian Koberger, and his daughter, one of the victims, but we really don't know motive at all.
[00:48:18]  Yeah.
[00:48:18]  So Kaylee Gonzalez's family, there was some reporting that they said they thought there was a connection.
[00:48:23]  I've talked to them a ton as recently as yesterday, and they say that they didn't really say that.
[00:48:29]  They don't know right now of a specific connection between Kroeberger and Kaylee.
[00:48:34]  They say they're looking for connections, but they haven't come up with anything yet at this point, besides just, I mean, obviously the geography.
[00:48:41]  I mean, Kroeberger was getting his PhD in criminology just about 10 minutes away from the house where the murders happened in Pullman, Washington.
[00:48:50]  So he was in the area, of course, but we don't know of anything that specifically ties him to any of the victims at this point.
[00:48:57]  And there was nothing about motive or anything that connected him to the victims in the affidavit.
[00:49:02]  It's incredible that they actually found not the murder weapon, but the sheath that the knife had been housed in at the murder scene next to one of the victims.
[00:49:12]  Incredibly sloppy on his part for this supposedly brilliant PhD student in criminology.
[00:49:20]  One wonders what would have left what would have caused him to leave such a crucial piece of evidence behind.
[00:49:27]  And it does reveal that they found DNA on part of that knife sheath.
[00:49:32]  So talk about that, that evidence.
[00:49:34]  Yeah, that really surprised me again because it's like everybody's been sort of talking this guy up in terms of, you know, he's brilliant.
[00:49:40]  He's getting his PhD in criminology.
[00:49:42]  But the knife sheath was found on the bed next to one of the victims right there by her side.
[00:49:49]  And on the knife sheath, there's like a little button where it clips closed and they found DNA on the button of the knife sheath.
[00:49:58]  When they eventually tracked Koberger back to Pennsylvania, where he was staying with his parents during the holidays, FBI went to a trash can, got trash out of the trash can, and it was DNA from the trash can that ended up matching up with what they found on the button of the knife.
[00:50:18]  Wait, it matched the, wait, it matched Brian?
[00:50:22]  What I read was they found the dad's DNA in the garbage and they were not able to rule out that the dad, like basically they, what the DNA showed them was this guy who lives here is the father of the killer.
[00:50:35]  Correct.
[00:50:35]  That's correct.
[00:50:36]  And what happened is when they went and finally arrested Brian, they did a search warrant of the house where they arrested him, but they also did a search warrant to get his DNA.
[00:50:46]  We haven't gotten, you know, like any information.
[00:50:50]  I'm assuming it eventually connected up and they can do that like within one day here at the Idaho State Crime Lab.
[00:50:55]  But you're right.
[00:50:56]  In the affidavit, it connected back to his father.
[00:50:59]  I guess that piece of trash had something, you know, with his father's DNA on.
[00:51:03]  Also interesting was they, they'd been following him, the FBI, for at least four days.
[00:51:09]  I don't know if I believe the timeline.
[00:51:11]  Admit, it seems like the FBI was certainly onto him for more than four days, but they admitted the affidavit to a four-day follow or sort of a surveillance on him prior to the arrest, which I think was December 29.
[00:51:22]  And they saw him once he got back to his parents' house.
[00:51:27]  He drove cross-country with his dad.
[00:51:29]  The murder was November 13th, November 15th.
[00:51:32]  His dad had flown one way from the Poconos, Pennsylvania to Washington State where Brian was at school.
[00:51:41]  And so December 15th, they start their cross-country journey together.
[00:51:46]  And they, so by the time he gets back to the Poconos, they, they were watching him and they saw him reportedly take his garbage, Brian Kohlberger, the suspect, take his garbage out of his parents' house and try to dump it in the neighbor's trash bin.
[00:52:04]  Have you seen this report?
[00:52:06]  I've seen that report, which is really interesting.
[00:52:09]  And you mentioned we know they were following him for at least four days, but it goes back like a month.
[00:52:14]  I mean, they first became aware of Koberger almost a little more than a month ago.
[00:52:20]  It all started with the car, with the Hyundai Elantra.
[00:52:23]  They put out a be on the lookout with local law enforcement.
[00:52:26]  It was an officer in Washington state in Pullman, where he was going to school, who spotted a car, an Elantra.
[00:52:34]  And then they traced that back to Brian.
[00:52:36]  And that's sort of what started the whole process.
[00:52:38]  That's when they got the, started, you know, trying to ping the cell phone and figure out what was going on.
[00:52:43]  But he's been on their radar for a month, which having been here all of this time, like they have been so quiet and it seemed many days like they absolutely had nothing.
[00:52:54]  And what's so interesting to me about this affidavit is like they have had a ton of information for a long time.
[00:53:00]  They've just been super, super tight-lipped about it with the media and also with the families.
[00:53:05]  Or have been smartly misleading because they said, among other things, that the two other roommates didn't see anything.
[00:53:12]  And that was clearly done to the protection of the other roommates because the one roommate absolutely saw something that would prove to be extremely important.
[00:53:20]  Tell us about it.
[00:53:21]  Yeah, that was like another jaw-dropping thing.
[00:53:24]  I mean, because we were told all along that the other two surviving roommates were sleeping.
[00:53:28]  And then the affidavit comes out and it says that one of them was awake and heard things, heard crying, heard the dog barking, heard a man in the house, heard a man's voice.
[00:53:41]  And then at one point looks out the door.
[00:53:43]  And also, by the way, we thought that the surviving roommates were on the were on the ground floor, it's a three-story house.
[00:53:49]  One of them who actually heard these things was on the second floor where the killer allegedly came in.
[00:53:54]  So not only did she hear things, but she looked out the door of the bedroom she was in and she saw the killer.
[00:54:02]  She says she saw him walk by, that he had a mask on and that he had bushy eyebrows and she saw him go in the direction of the backsliding glass door.
[00:54:12]  All of that, nobody knew that on the outside until yesterday.
[00:54:17]  And the bushy eyebrows thing is interesting because I mentioned how it was that officer initially in Washington who saw an Elantra and notified the police here in Moscow.
[00:54:29]  They actually made the bushy eyebrow connection early on, which is what started to get the ball rolling where they started looking into about Coburger.
[00:54:37]  Because when the local authorities put out the bolo, the be on the lookout for a Hyundai Elantra, a white Hyundai Elantra, and it's amazing because the FBI came in and there's some guy at the FBI whose job it is to look at cars in surveillance videos, you know, because everything's on surveillance now.
[00:54:52]  We've got cameras everywhere, whether it's somebody's nest camera on their home or it's the, you know, at the shell gasoline.
[00:55:00]  There's just, you can't get away.
[00:55:02]  And they said that there are very few cars that went by this residence or in this residential area at this hour of the night.
[00:55:09]  So they had it down to a couple of cars, including this one.
[00:55:12]  And they figured out pretty quickly this was their favorite car, the white Hyundai Elantra.
[00:55:17]  So the guy at the FBI is the one who says that's a white Hyundai Elantra.
[00:55:19]  It's maybe between 2011 and 2013.
[00:55:22]  Then he changed it to maybe could be later model.
[00:55:24]  As it turned out to be, it was 2015 and the guy changed it to could be up to a 2016.
[00:55:28]  So he was right.
[00:55:29]  And they put on the bolo on it.
[00:55:30]  And then the Washington state employee says, I'm going to take a look over here.
[00:55:34]  We're only 10 miles away.
[00:55:35]  Let's see if we have a white Hyundai Elantra.
[00:55:37]  Sure enough, they found one.
[00:55:38]  It was registered to Brian, the suspect.
[00:55:41]  And he pulled his identifying information.
[00:55:44]  And sure enough, there's a picture of the guy and more information on him.
[00:55:47]  Then, unbeknownst to us, they're talking to one of the surviving roommates who says he had a mask on, like not a ski mask, but like a COVID mask.
[00:55:55]  And what I remember was his bushy eyebrows, which you can plainly see, apparently, in his ID photo.
[00:56:01]  It is an identifying.
[00:56:02]  So now they're starting to put it together.
[00:56:04]  Exactly.
[00:56:05]  That's exactly right.
[00:56:06]  And they had surveillance video from a house next door also that caught the car, but also caught what sounded like the dog barking and some other noises coming from the house.
[00:56:15]  Again, all of this was a surprise because they must have taken that camera down early on.
[00:56:19]  I've been outside the house every day.
[00:56:21]  I could never find the camera.
[00:56:23]  It just amazes me that this small police department got so much heat for so long from the media and from some of the families and from people in the community.
[00:56:35]  And that, you know, they, you know, they kept a poker face on, but behind the scenes, like they've been building all of this for a month now.
[00:56:44]  They were on it.
[00:56:46]  They knew that car didn't have a front license plate.
[00:56:49]  They figured out that it had been registered in that Brian had been in Pennsylvania the year before.
[00:56:54]  Jonathan Bill Bora, we're going to bring you in, criminal defense attorney and civil law attorney as well.
[00:57:00]  They knew that it was registered, that it was missing the front license plate.
[00:57:03]  Well, in Washington State, you have to have one in the front and the back, but in Pennsylvania, you don't.
[00:57:08]  And they started to put it together one, you know, bit by bit that this could potentially be their guy.
[00:57:14]  But now that leads me to what happened, okay, because it was, hold on, I want to, I actually put wrote this down.
[00:57:21]  Okay.
[00:57:23]  It was 11, again, 1113 is when the murders happened.
[00:57:27]  1125, Moscow cops put out the bolo for the white Hyundai Elantra.
[00:57:32]  1129, Washington State University cops identify this guy, the suspect, Brian Kohlberger, as having a white Hyundai Elantra.
[00:57:41]  By this point, certainly the cops know the bushy eyebrow description and so on from the surviving roommate.
[00:57:48]  So by 1129, they have this guy's name from Washington State University as a driver of a white Hyundai Elantra Elantra, 10 miles away.
[00:57:56]  They got the description of the bushy eyebrows.
[00:57:58]  They got this guy's picture.
[00:57:59]  That's 1129.
[00:58:01]  So you tell me whether you believe the denials that by 1215, when he took the cross-country car trip with his dad back to the Poconos, the law enforcement officials now are denying that the two traffic stops he was subjected to in Indiana were pushed by the FBI.
[00:58:19]  Everybody believes the FBI made those things happen.
[00:58:22]  Get him on camera, check out his demeanor, see what we can find.
[00:58:26]  They happened very close together for some reason in Indiana.
[00:58:30]  But officially, law enforcement authorities are saying the FBI did not order those.
[00:58:34]  Indiana State Police are saying they did not order these.
[00:58:37]  They were organic.
[00:58:38]  But there are reports from one source quoting law enforcement officials, one from Fox, one from CNN, saying the FBI was behind both of them.
[00:58:46]  What do you make of it?
[00:58:47]  Yeah, you know, I'm kind of with you.
[00:58:49]  I find it hard to believe that they were two organic stops, especially knowing what we know now.
[00:58:55]  Like originally when I heard that, I thought maybe the cops were going to try to get DNA from him at that stop somehow, some way, but it didn't happen.
[00:59:04]  That's why they had to eventually dig through the father's garbage cans, which, as we know, garbage is fair game.

=== Organic FBI Orders (13:38) ===

[00:59:10]  There's no expectation of privacy and garbage.
[00:59:13]  It's also sometimes not the best source of DNA.
[00:59:16]  But then that didn't happen.
[00:59:17]  They really just got to eyeball him, eyeball the dad, and then that was it.
[00:59:22]  But to think that they were just regular old traffic stops having nothing to do with anything, I also find that hard to believe.
[00:59:30]  I know.
[00:59:30]  I have to say I'm calling BS on it.
[00:59:32]  It just doesn't ring true to me.
[00:59:35]  There was videotape of each stop.
[00:59:37]  One is very poor.
[00:59:39]  One just basically shows the ground, which some are arguing supports the cops' assertion that it wasn't an FBI directive because they would have been better cameramen with their body cams if this were the goal.
[00:59:51]  But anyway, we'll show it to you.
[00:59:53]  It's hard to hear as well.
[00:59:54]  It's still interesting, though.
[00:59:55]  Okay, here's stop number one.
[00:59:57]  The first stop was by the state troopers in Indiana.
[01:00:01]  Sorry, forgive me.
[01:00:03]  Indiana Sheriff's Deputy first.
[01:00:04]  Indiana State Trooper second is my understanding.
[01:00:07]  Here's the first stop.
[01:00:08]  Both stops were allegedly for tailgating.
[01:00:10]  I mean, you got to think what an oh shit moment for this defendant.
[01:00:14]  If he really murdered these four people and he's driving cross country, you know, what, a month later with his dad and he gets pulled over.
[01:00:22]  You see the red siren behind you.
[01:00:25]  Here's the first stop on camera.
[01:00:26]  This is a 36 second sound bite number two.
[01:00:30]  Hello.
[01:00:30]  How you doing?
[01:00:31]  How y'all doing today?
[01:00:33]  Good, good.
[01:00:34]  Take a look at your driver's license real quick if I could.
[01:00:38]  See, he's right up on that man, man.
[01:00:42]  He was right up on the back end of that man.
[01:00:44]  Pulled you over for tailgating.
[01:00:47]  Is this your car?
[01:00:48]  Okay.
[01:00:49]  Cool.
[01:00:50]  Where are you headed?
[01:00:55]  Wow, you're coming from WSU and you've got to.
[01:01:02]  What's WSU?
[01:01:05]  Yeah.
[01:01:06]  All right.
[01:01:07]  So he's kind of chatty.
[01:01:08]  I don't know, John.
[01:01:09]  Is that suspicious?
[01:01:10]  Because usually you get pulled over and the cop's like, license and registration, ma'am.
[01:01:13]  And then you're like, oh, you're the one trying to make conversation.
[01:01:16]  He's like, shut up.
[01:01:17]  Here's your ticket.
[01:01:19]  You're right.
[01:01:19]  Or you're crying.
[01:01:20]  I mean, that's the other thing.
[01:01:22]  The other suspicious thing is I don't think he got a ticket either time.
[01:01:27]  And when I get pulled over, I typically walk away with a ticket.
[01:01:30]  So I really think they're efficient for something.
[01:01:32]  Imagine if he had, you know, I don't know, if he had an open container in the car and the police could get their hands on that and get their DNA, but it didn't work out that way.
[01:01:40]  Nice try.
[01:01:41]  Okay.
[01:01:42]  So I agree.
[01:01:43]  And I suppose it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme.
[01:01:48]  It's not going to affect whether or not he gets convicted if the FBI were behind that, those two stops, right?
[01:01:55]  Not that he didn't get a ticket for them.
[01:01:57]  But it is very interesting because we, like, like we all mentioned, we had no idea that the police were really onto this.
[01:02:04]  I mean, it seems to me the spark that lit the flame was really the car and how that's so needle in a haystack.
[01:02:14]  But then that led to another piece and that led to another piece.
[01:02:17]  And before you know it, they had enough probable cause.
[01:02:20]  And that's really all where we are right now to get him arrested.
[01:02:25]  I think before that, before that, they had enough probable cause, Brian, to get a search warrant on the phones.
[01:02:31]  They can't just go to ATT and say, give me all of Megan Kelly's records or this guy, Brian's records.
[01:02:36]  They need probable cause to get ATT to fork over your cell phone history.
[01:02:41]  And the search warrant, the affidavit in support of the arrest warrant they got says they did get a search warrant to go to AT ⁇ T and get this guy's cell phone records, which were a treasure trove.
[01:02:55]  Yeah, let me tell you why I think it is interesting that they pulled them over twice, but I think that it might not be the FBI behind it.
[01:03:05]  This has been an airtight case with no leaks.
[01:03:07]  We've been digging every day for stuff and we haven't come up with anything until the probable cause came up.
[01:03:11]  Do you really think the FBI is going to involve this local sheriff's office and then the Indiana state police separately and open that up to like all these agencies now being involved?
[01:03:23]  I mean, it just seems like they would want to keep it controlled.
[01:03:27]  And then the other reason I think it might not be the FBI behind it is because both the sheriff's office and the Indiana state police both put out separate statements to the media explaining the traffic stops and saying that they were normal traffic stops.
[01:03:42]  So that would mean that right now, not only is the FBI lying, but that both of those police agencies are also.
[01:03:48]  Well, they do lie.
[01:03:49]  They also said the other roommate didn't see anything.
[01:03:52]  That was clearly a lie.
[01:03:53]  Now we know that was a lie.
[01:03:53]  They lied for good reasons.
[01:03:56]  I mean, I get it, but you know, it's just very coincidental that within like 10 minutes, I don't know, it's like very close together.
[01:04:02]  The guy gets stopped not for speeding, but for tailgating?
[01:04:04]  Have you ever gotten stopped for tailgating?
[01:04:07]  Here's the audio and for the YouTube videos, watchers, the video of the second stop in Indiana is short.
[01:04:23]  I'm not going to give you guys another ticket or warning if you just got to stop.
[01:04:25]  Just make sure you give yourself funny room.
[01:04:28]  It's so weird.
[01:04:29]  I mean, truly, both guys stopped him for tailgating.
[01:04:32]  Okay, it's bizarre.
[01:04:33]  But explain to me, Brian, how we have 1129 Washington State University cops identifying this guy as the one who's driving the white Hyundai Elantra, right?
[01:04:47]  That's like, and then they look him up and they see the bushy eyebrows and they have the roommate's description at this point.
[01:04:53]  So by 1129, they've got that.
[01:04:55]  And by 1215, we're supposed to believe they're not tracking him.
[01:04:59]  And they say they didn't begin tracking him until four days before the 1229 arrest.
[01:05:04]  That does not make sense to me.
[01:05:06]  Yeah, I think they clearly had an eye on him.
[01:05:08]  They also, by the way, when they found out the name, immediately started looking into his past, found out about that he's getting his PhD in criminology.
[01:05:15]  They found that Reddit study study.
[01:05:17]  Have you seen that Reddit study, Megan, where he put out this questionnaire trying to find out how criminals feel in the moment and what causes criminals to act the way they do?
[01:05:28]  They found that very early on.
[01:05:30]  I mean, so clearly they were keeping an eye on him at that point.
[01:05:33]  You've got to imagine they had a sense that they had their guy at that point.
[01:05:36]  Well, the other thing is, Jonna, so certainly they did start surveillance by their own admission when he got back to the Poconos with his dad.
[01:05:42]  They say that that was a pre-purchased plane ticket by the dad, that it had been planned.
[01:05:47]  The guy, Brian, had been, is it Kohlberger?
[01:05:50]  Is that how we're pronouncing his last name, Brian?
[01:05:52]  Kohlberger?
[01:05:53]  It's Koberger.
[01:05:54]  So no L, Koberger.
[01:05:55]  Koberger.
[01:05:56]  Okay.
[01:05:56]  So Brian Koberger had been raised by his parents in Pennsylvania and he had gone undergrad and for his master's degree at DeSales University in Pennsylvania.
[01:06:06]  So he was new to the Washington state region as of, I think, that summer, that summer of 2022, very shortly before he allegedly committed these murders.
[01:06:16]  And his dad had, according to the authorities, pre-planned a trip out there to drive cross-country home with him in his car.
[01:06:23]  The dad, a custodian, the mom, a substitute teacher.
[01:06:27]  It's so sad.
[01:06:28]  They have no money.
[01:06:29]  They reportedly had to declare Chapter 7 bankruptcy twice.
[01:06:33]  His poor family, they can't afford to really help this guy legally.
[01:06:36]  Right now, he's a public defender.
[01:06:37]  But anyway, so when he gets back to them, Jonna, he's staying at the dad's house, the mom and dad's house.
[01:06:43]  And there are reports now that I'm pretty sure I got this from the affidavit, that he, they observed the suspect take the trash bags out of the parents' house one night and instead of putting them in their trash bins, put them in the neighbor's trash bins.
[01:07:01]  It is from the affidavit.
[01:07:02]  And the cops said they went and retrieved.
[01:07:06]  What?
[01:07:07]  Kelly McGuire?
[01:07:08]  Am I?
[01:07:09]  All right, it's from reporting.
[01:07:12]  The cops went and retrieved the bags.
[01:07:14]  So the interesting thing, Jonna, is that now the cops have those bags.
[01:07:17]  Something was in them that was important enough for the suspect to try to get them out of his own dad's trash bins.
[01:07:23]  And now the cops have them.
[01:07:24]  And not only that, but I'm sure they have a search affidavit that they've executed on Brian Koberger's apartment back at WSU inside his parents' house.
[01:07:34]  Like there could be a treasure trove of evidence in all three of those things.
[01:07:39]  There very well could be.
[01:07:41]  And hopefully we will find that out in the coming weeks and months.
[01:07:45]  But really, the only thing we know for certain now is what's containing the probable cause affidavit because that's all they needed.
[01:07:52]  They had just enough, and maybe a little bit more than enough to get the job done and get this man arrested so he can have his preliminary hearing and we can figure out what else there is in there.
[01:08:03]  Because the other thing, I mean, I am fascinated by this case.
[01:08:06]  First of all, my heart goes out to the families.
[01:08:08]  This is a horrific case.
[01:08:09]  But from a purely legal perspective, I'm fascinated by many things already, not the least of which, if part of the theory is this guy thought he was the smartest guy in the room and he wanted to commit the perfect murder.
[01:08:21]  And that's just supposition at this point.
[01:08:24]  I mean, you take the garbage and you put it in the neighbor's can.
[01:08:28]  Like I can find better ways to get rid of evidence other than just going to the next driveway and putting trash in somebody else's bin, especially if I don't know if he thought, did he think he was being surveilled at this point?
[01:08:41]  Did he know he was being launched?
[01:08:43]  Was he doing some of this on purpose?
[01:08:45]  And again, these are all just mysterious parts of the case at the moment.
[01:08:50]  But yeah, he certainly isn't the smartest guy in the room.
[01:08:53]  And also I'm finding interesting that some of the probable cause contained in the affidavit, I am certain his attorneys right now are finding alternate explanations for innocent explanations for, which is going to be another battle that I foresee coming in this case.
[01:09:09]  I want to talk about that.
[01:09:10]  So first of all, there's no question that the police are tearing through that car bit by bit.
[01:09:15]  And they're going to remove the dashboard.
[01:09:16]  They're going to remove the gear control.
[01:09:18]  They're going to remove everything looking for.
[01:09:20]  Because again, this is according to them, the alleged car the killer got into after he committed these four murders.
[01:09:26]  So there might be blood.
[01:09:27]  There might be trace evidence.
[01:09:28]  There could be great evidence that ties him to these murders.
[01:09:31]  Same thing with his apartment.
[01:09:33]  Did he leave any clothes behind?
[01:09:34]  Is there any trace DNA in the washer dryer?
[01:09:38]  All that stuff's going to be poured over.
[01:09:40]  The affidavit is only what they, the bare minimum they needed to get the arrest.
[01:09:44]  It's not their whole case.
[01:09:46]  So as you point out, Brian, if they've actually tied his DNA to the murder victim's bodies, to anything having, you know, in connection with the scene, the case gets exponentially stronger.
[01:09:59]  But John, if you just go off of the affidavit, I got to say from the defense lawyer, I'm like, I got one thing I need to explain.
[01:10:09]  And that's why the dads, you know, there's some sort of a match on the button of that knife sheath.
[01:10:16]  But that's not the worst thing to have to explain.
[01:10:18]  Like I can explain the car.
[01:10:20]  There's a neighbor he lives next to who says he's a, he stays up all night, all night.
[01:10:24]  He can't sleep.
[01:10:24]  It's annoying.
[01:10:25]  He's up at like one in the morning vacuuming, always has been.
[01:10:28]  Okay, so I'm the defense law.
[01:10:29]  I'm like, he likes to drive his car.
[01:10:31]  This is 10 miles away.
[01:10:32]  It's kind of in the neighborhood.
[01:10:33]  Of course.
[01:10:34]  The fact that you see his car in the neighborhood tells us nothing.
[01:10:38]  You know, where's the bushy eyebrows?
[01:10:40]  That's not going to do it.
[01:10:42]  One white Hyundai Elantris, how many of those?
[01:10:44]  And by the way, you don't even know if it was a white hypnote, right?
[01:10:46]  So it's that one button.
[01:10:49]  They need more.
[01:10:50]  They need more for conviction.
[01:10:52]  Oh, they absolutely do.
[01:10:54]  And that one, but you honed in exactly on the piece that I honed in on.
[01:10:57]  Like, how does his DNA get there?
[01:10:59]  And one of the things that his attorneys will also explore is: well, wait a minute.
[01:11:04]  This testing wasn't as if they took tissue from a victim's under their nails and then matched it directly to the tissue of Brian.
[01:11:12]  This was genealogy.
[01:11:13]  This was DNA once removed.
[01:11:15]  Maybe it's not as reliable as other DNA testing.
[01:11:19]  And if there's one spec there, I mean, here's, you know, how when they were describing the cell phone pings and it was almost more incriminating when there weren't any because there should have been and that was incriminating.
[01:11:33]  If this is the type of case where we are expecting a whole lot of DNA.
[01:11:39]  So if it comes to pass that the only DNA connection is a dot on a sheath of a knife, and I'm not even certain it's the sheath that was on the knife that was the murder weapon, Megan.
[01:11:50]  I haven't read that yet.
[01:11:52]  I know there was a sheath.
[01:11:53]  Maybe it was a different knife.
[01:11:55]  If that's the only DNA connection, the prosecution will have problems.
[01:11:59]  Now, again, we are in the baby stages of this.
[01:12:02]  If they swab the car, go through the carb with a fine-tooth comb as they should.
[01:12:07]  I don't care how bad you try to bleach.
[01:12:09]  I don't care how bad you try to clean.
[01:12:11]  That type of murder scene is going to leave clues everywhere.
[01:12:15]  And you're not going to be able to clean it up enough.
[01:12:17]  So again, another point that we're going to be hanging our hats on in the future.
[01:12:22]  Legally in Iowa, they don't really recognize the insanity plea.
[01:12:27]  Sorry, Idaho.
[01:12:28]  They don't really recognize the insanity plea.
[01:12:31]  They only want to determine if you can understand the charges against you.
[01:12:35]  He admitted he does at his extradition hearing.
[01:12:39]  They seem to want to go for straight acquittal on this.
[01:12:42]  That's what his publicly appointed defense counsel said that he believes he's going to be exonerated.

=== Retaliatory Murder Motivation (14:36) ===

[01:12:48]  Brian, can we just spend a minute on the roommate who came forward and the sort of she's taking, I mean, it's crazy to rip on this poor girl, like what this girl's been through too.
[01:12:59]  But people are wondering why it took her so many hours.
[01:13:02]  This is from the affidavit.
[01:13:04]  Short, okay.
[01:13:05]  So she says she went to sleep on the second floor.
[01:13:07]  She was awoken at 4 a.m.
[01:13:09]  What sounded like her roommate Kaylee playing with her dog in one of the upstairs bedrooms on the third floor.
[01:13:13]  She was on the second again.
[01:13:14]  The murders happened both on the second and the third.
[01:13:17]  A short time later, this gal, they referred to her as DM.
[01:13:20]  We know her name is Dylan.
[01:13:22]  A short time later, she heard who she thought was Kaylee say something to the effect of, there's someone here.
[01:13:29]  A review of records obtained from a forensic download of one of the victim's phones showed this could also have been Zaina Cernoodle as her cellular phone indicated she was likely awakened using the TikTok app at 4.12 a.m.
[01:13:45]  It's crazy.
[01:13:46]  Again, they think the murders happened between 4 and 4.25.
[01:13:49]  And they're showing one of the victims on her TikTok app at 4.12 in the morning.
[01:13:53]  Dylan said she looked out the bedroom out of her bedroom, but didn't see anything when she heard the comment about someone being in the house.
[01:14:02]  There's someone here.
[01:14:03]  Dylan said she said she opened the door a second time when she heard she thought what she thought was crying coming out of Zena Cernodel's room.
[01:14:12]  Dylan then said she heard a male voice say something to the effect of, it's okay.
[01:14:17]  I'm going to help you.
[01:14:19]  So creepy knowing what we know.
[01:14:21]  Approximately 4.17 a.m, a security camera located next door, which they say was only 50 feet away, picked up distorted audio of what sounded like voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud.
[01:14:36]  A dog can also be heard barking numerous times, starting at 4, 17 a.m.
[01:14:41]  Again when the security camera kicked on um, they say, Dylan stated she opened the door for the third time after she heard the crying and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person's mouth and nose walking toward her.
[01:14:56]  She described the figure as 5'10 or taller, male, not very muscular, athletically built with bushy eyebrows.
[01:15:03]  The male walked past her as she stood in a quote frozen shock phase.
[01:15:08]  The male walked toward the back sliding glass door.
[01:15:10]  She locked herself in the room after seeing the male.
[01:15:13]  She did not state that she recognized him.
[01:15:15]  This leads investigators to believe the murderer left the scene.
[01:15:19]  And it was not until almost noon, 1158 a.m. the following morning, that she or one or the other girl finally called 911.
[01:15:30]  What do we make of that, Brian?
[01:15:33]  Yeah, I mean, super, super, this is the big question.
[01:15:36]  I mean, if you look online and what everybody's talking about, this is the thing that's got everybody hung up is how could she have seen the killer and heard those things, gone back into her bedroom, locked the door, and then not called 911 until 11.58 a.m.
[01:15:52]  She says that she was frozen in here.
[01:15:55]  I mean, you know, I've never obviously been in a situation like that.
[01:15:58]  I mean, it sounds like that's certainly possible.
[01:16:00]  You could be so scared.
[01:16:01]  There's also something interesting in the affidavit that kind of relates to this.
[01:16:05]  It says that Koberger went back and drove by the house again, according to the cell phone pings, around 9.15 a.m.
[01:16:14]  So maybe she had some kind of sense that he was going to come back or something and she was just like hunkering down and scared, which he did drive by again.
[01:16:22]  I don't know, but it's certainly, we don't understand.
[01:16:25]  We still don't have the 911 call.
[01:16:26]  That'll maybe help explain it because there's apparently a long 911 call that comes in at 1158 a.m. that we don't have our hands on, but she certainly waited a long time to call 911.
[01:16:37]  It's, I mean, it was poor girls.
[01:16:39]  Who could know?
[01:16:40]  You know, we're using our own 2020 hindsight, knowing what we know.
[01:16:44]  He also, according to the cops, sat outside of these young women's house for an hour in August, in August.
[01:16:52]  And then you point out, Brian, he'd been there at least 12 times, or at least in the vicinity, Jonna.
[01:16:57]  His lawyer is going to be like, there at the house is different than in the vicinity.
[01:17:03]  But if this was true, then, and one of the victims claimed that she had been stalked by somebody, it's all, you know, potentially coming together that he'd been watching them for quite some time and had this plan for quite some time.
[01:17:15]  Panel, thank you both so much.
[01:17:17]  I appreciate it.
[01:17:18]  We'll do it again.
[01:17:18]  Up next, we're going to speak with retired FBI criminal profiler, Candace DeLong.
[01:17:24]  Don't miss her.
[01:17:28]  Now we take a deep dive into the mind of the suspect arrested in the Idaho College murders with retired FBI agent and criminal profiler, famed criminal profiler, Candace DeLong.
[01:17:38]  Candace was on the front lines of some of the FBI's most gripping cases, including the Tylenol murders, and was one of three agents to carry out the manhunt for the Unibomber.
[01:17:47]  She is the host of Investigation Discovery's Deadly Women and Facing Evil.
[01:17:52]  She also is the host of the podcast, Killer Psyche, with Candace DeLong.
[01:17:56]  Candace, great to speak with you again.
[01:17:57]  Thank you so much for coming on.
[01:17:59]  Thanks for having me, Megan.
[01:18:00]  Nice to see you.
[01:18:02]  Yeah.
[01:18:02]  All right.
[01:18:03]  So let's start broad and let me ask you what you've gleaned so far that's interesting to you about this accused killer.
[01:18:11]  Well, from what we know so far, and of course, what interests me is the motivation of the killer as well as other things.
[01:18:22]  One of the things I find interesting and possibly telling, a lot of female friends from high school, college, and even recently in his rad program talk about him, various things to say.
[01:18:39]  No former girlfriend or former intimate person has come forward, possibly because, you know, it could be, oh my gosh, you know, was I wrong to be involved with this guy?
[01:18:53]  But I wonder if he simply hasn't had an intimate relationship, a romantic relationship.
[01:19:03]  And the reason I think that is, without question, these, this was a targeted murder.
[01:19:12]  And one of the victims, the two blondes, was brutalized, stabbed many more times than the other one.
[01:19:24]  I think she was probably the target.
[01:19:28]  One of the things that I think of regarding motivation is, was this motive, there was no sexual assault, but there was certainly a display of anger and rage and possibly revenge.
[01:19:46]  There are many murders and it's happening more lately by men murdering women in this way, anger, multiple stab wounds.
[01:19:59]  It's rarely a gunshot.
[01:20:02]  It's a stabbing someone, of course, is in their face, personal.
[01:20:06]  I hate you, I hate you, that kind of thing.
[01:20:09]  And that's what we see here.
[01:20:11]  So I am wondering if he, well, there's actually a term for it, Megan, and it's in cell, which stands for involuntarily celibate.
[01:20:24]  And there is a dark web on the dark web.
[01:20:28]  There are message boards where these guys talk about how much they hate women.
[01:20:33]  And they blame the woman or women in general for them not having a girlfriend, somebody that wants to be intimate with them.
[01:20:46]  And we're seeing more and more of this.
[01:20:49]  The reason my mind is going there is nobody has come forward and said, oh my gosh, I dated this guy for a couple of months.
[01:20:57]  I can't believe he did that.
[01:20:59]  No, nobody is.
[01:21:00]  And the female friends that are talking about him, friends, nobody, none of them have said, yeah, he, you know, he's got a girlfriend.
[01:21:08]  He's always got a girlfriend.
[01:21:09]  Women love him.
[01:21:11]  And there are, I have read reports of classmates recently in his doctoral program that said various things about him that he seemed to, with his female colleagues or female students that he was teaching, angry, short-tempered, that kind of thing.
[01:21:35]  So I think it's a real good possibility that the motivation, if he is the guy, the motivation for this was some kind of anger, retaliatory thing.
[01:21:51]  We know it was planned.
[01:21:54]  This murder was planned.
[01:21:55]  It wasn't a spur of the moment thing, or maybe one of the girls flipped him off and he got angry and decided to go make her pay for doing that.
[01:22:07]  That isn't what happened here.
[01:22:09]  This, and we know that his car was there before, weeks before.
[01:22:18]  I think that he's interesting thing about the forensic, his knowledge of forensics, he sure didn't, if he's the guy, he sure didn't display them in carrying out this murder, leaving behind something with his DNA, the pinging of cell phones.
[01:22:39]  Certainly, why didn't he leave his cell phone at home?
[01:22:43]  Things like that.
[01:22:44]  So I don't think, and some people have asked me, do I think he was trying to see if he could commit the perfect murder?
[01:22:52]  I do not think that.
[01:22:53]  And the reason I don't think that is there is a display of anger in at least the first person that was killed, the young woman that received more stab wounds than anyone.
[01:23:08]  So why, I know, this is all speculation, of course, but why, if you were profiling this guy for the FBI, would you think he'd go on to kill three more people in the house, including one of the young women's boyfriends?
[01:23:22]  Good question.
[01:23:23]  The two young women, the blondes, I've read that they were sleeping in the same bed.
[01:23:32]  Yeah, they were best friends.
[01:23:34]  They were best friends.
[01:23:35]  So if he's after one, the one that he stabbed the most, and there's another, her friends right there, of course, in his mind, you would have to kill her.
[01:23:48]  Now, the couple, the boyfriend, girlfriend, that's kind of a head scratcher.
[01:23:55]  If it is true, if the information is accurate that they were asleep when they were attacked, then that would be the first question I'd ask whoever the killer is.
[01:24:07]  Well, if they were asleep, they were no threat to you.
[01:24:09]  Why did you do that?
[01:24:11]  And then we have this information that the young woman that actually saw him, he walked by her.
[01:24:23]  Why didn't he kill her?
[01:24:25]  Don't know.
[01:24:26]  We don't know.
[01:24:28]  I do believe, however, your previous guests were talking, what in the world was the deal with the eight hours before she called?
[01:24:36]  I think she was in traumatic shock.
[01:24:39]  As a nurse, I have seen it.
[01:24:41]  And sometimes somebody can be in traumatic shock and not be able to speak or not be able to act or speak for days.
[01:24:52]  And I think that's what happened here.
[01:24:54]  That's terrifying.
[01:24:56]  The what are, and I know this is right up your alley, but do you believe if he did this, that this was the first time he killed somebody?
[01:25:07]  I mean, four people, like it just seems, forgive the word, but more sophisticated than a first-time killer would go for more advanced, more, I don't know what the word is, aggressive.
[01:25:19]  But what do you think?
[01:25:21]  I do think it was probably the first time he made a lot of mistakes.
[01:25:26]  I would be, I mean, people get in their car after a murder, pardon me, and they are covered with blood.
[01:25:33]  And the blood transfers to the seats, leather fabric seats, and they try to clean it up, but it doesn't work.
[01:25:45]  You can't clean up blood well enough that it can't be detected if there is a sophisticated forensic team looking for it.
[01:25:57]  Now, you're right.
[01:25:59]  It's unusual for killers to start out with a mass, this was a massacre.
[01:26:09]  It was a mass murder.
[01:26:12]  I don't know what that was his intention, but I believe that he knew exactly who was in that house when he went in.
[01:26:18]  And usually what we see with serial killers is they start acting out their fantasies earlier than 28.
[01:26:30]  And when they're teenagers, they act out their fantasies on animals or other kids, but it wouldn't necessarily be a murder, for example.
[01:26:42]  And this guy does not fall in the category of serial killer.
[01:26:46]  Okay, but here's an example of what I'm talking about.
[01:26:49]  Jeffrey Dahmer started his killing in his 20s.
[01:26:59]  Robert Ressler, retired FBI profile, he's passed away now, one of the founders of the profiling program, advised the detectives once Dahmer was in custody, go back and wherever he lived and look, talk with the police, see if they have any unsolved murders of boys, men,

=== Profiling Obsessive Killers (06:59) ===

[01:27:25]  or animals where he's lived.
[01:27:29]  And they did, and they found someone that was, when Jeffrey was an adolescent, I think 13, 14 years old, he was riding his bicycle in a residential area and he was going one way and he sees a kid, a younger kid on a bike coming toward him.
[01:27:49]  And you know, when you're a kid and you're riding a bike, you're doing, you're not, you know, just you want to get home or wherever you're going.
[01:27:56]  And Jeffrey had a knife with him.
[01:28:00]  And as the boy passed him, he reached over and then drove on and went on.
[01:28:07]  He was never caught for that.
[01:28:09]  And when Russler interviewed him, I believe he admitted that, but I'm not sure that.
[01:28:16]  But what I'm saying is killers that become serial killers start acting their stuff out much sooner than this.
[01:28:28]  So you believe there will be something in his background, a prelude to this kind of violence.
[01:28:34]  There'll be something, but I don't think we're going to find a dead woman or a dead teenage girl.
[01:28:40]  It's possible, but I don't think so.
[01:28:43]  I mean, again, he's from the Poconos.
[01:28:45]  It's a very, you know, there's a lot of trees.
[01:28:48]  It's wooded.
[01:28:48]  Like there, who knows?
[01:28:50]  And he was recently in this area.
[01:28:52]  So that probably wouldn't be the place to look, especially if he was casing this house almost as soon as he got there.
[01:28:58]  So he seems to have been focused on one of these girls or more right from the get-go upon getting there.
[01:29:05]  As you point out, there could be misogyny there.
[01:29:07]  There could be, you know, given a terrible history with women.
[01:29:10]  The friends are reporting he did very poorly with women.
[01:29:13]  He used to be very overweight.
[01:29:15]  He lost the weight and then became very aggressive, became a bully.
[01:29:20]  Several friends started distancing themselves from him.
[01:29:24]  But he was high functioning, Candace.
[01:29:26]  He was getting his PhD.
[01:29:28]  You know, it's not like this guy was unemployed, is a homeless, like he was high functioning.
[01:29:33]  So what does that tell us?
[01:29:36]  Well, I don't think he woke up one morning and said, I think I'm going to go kill some people, women.
[01:29:44]  I think I'm going to do that.
[01:29:45]  I don't think that happened.
[01:29:47]  As you mentioned, he's, according to reports of people that knew him, grow up, grew up with him, people that are in class with him recently this past fall, they all say the same thing.
[01:29:59]  And as I mentioned before, no romantic partner has come forward.
[01:30:03]  I don't think there is a romantic partner in his past.
[01:30:09]  He probably, what we do know, we meaning FBI profilers that interview people that do these kind of things, they start thinking about it much sooner than they did it.
[01:30:20]  Revenge fantasies are usually just fantasies, but sometimes in people that are disturbed, they become more than a fantasy and they act it out.
[01:30:32]  Now, wait, let me jump in.
[01:30:33]  Let me pause you right there because we're up against the end of our serious show.
[01:30:37]  And I want to continue this.
[01:30:39]  This is too good.
[01:30:39]  So, to all my serious listeners, just download the podcast later, and you can fast forward to this point and listen to the rest of this conversation.
[01:30:46]  There's so much to go over with Candace, including whether this guy called in to a podcast.
[01:30:51]  We're going to play you the clip and discuss whether it's him.
[01:30:55]  So, stand by, Candace.
[01:30:57]  More with her on the pod.
[01:31:02]  Okay, Candace, thank you first of all for sticking around.
[01:31:04]  So, we were talking about how could you be so high-functioning and commit this crime?
[01:31:11]  Like, how it's in our minds, of course, we know there are examples like Ted Bundy, right?
[01:31:17]  Good-looking guy who seemed to be high-functioning.
[01:31:19]  But I think most of us think more of like a lunatic like Charles Manson when we think of somebody capable of committing this kind of a murder.
[01:31:27]  Right.
[01:31:28]  I worked a case, the Unibomber case, and Ted Kaczynski, very a genius IQ.
[01:31:37]  At one point, before I became a hermit in Montana, he was a professor at UC Berkeley.
[01:31:44]  And one of when I was working the case and running all over Montana, building the trying to get evidence, building the affidavit for the search warrant, one of the things I learned was that Kaczynski checked out various books at libraries around Montana where he lived.
[01:32:07]  And many of them were, how does the mind work?
[01:32:12]  What is mental illness?
[01:32:15]  He was very concerned about his own personality, his brain, his behavior.
[01:32:24]  Not so much that he was stop killing, sending bombs through the mail, but he was, so here's this person that won.
[01:32:32]  He certainly wasn't as high functioning as the guy we're talking about, Kohlberg.
[01:32:37]  Brian Kohlberger.
[01:32:38]  Kohlberger might have been having these fantasies and these rageful feelings toward females, having fantasies of killing them.
[01:32:50]  And perhaps he was drawn to the field of forensics, forensic psychology.
[01:32:56]  His particular thesis, what is a criminal thinking at the moment they're committing a crime?
[01:33:04]  I find that very telling.
[01:33:08]  Why?
[01:33:09]  He wants because he was having thoughts, because he was possibly probably obsessing.
[01:33:16]  Like I said, he didn't wake up one day and say, I think I'll go do this horrible thing.
[01:33:21]  I've been thinking about it for a long time.
[01:33:24]  And I can imagine if he was thinking about killing, he might say to himself, I wonder what it would, I know what my fantasies are.
[01:33:35]  I wonder what it would really be like to do it.
[01:33:39]  And for me, that thesis is, I don't even know how you would find out that, because I've interviewed a lot of people that committed murder.
[01:33:48]  And very few of them have ever been able to explain what they were feeling and why they did what they did.
[01:33:57]  In fact, most of them say, I don't remember.
[01:34:00]  A few people I've interviewed had said, yes, I was in a jealous rage.
[01:34:04]  I remember every second of it.
[01:34:07]  And some, one person even said to me, and I do it again.
[01:34:10]  He was serving life in prison.
[01:34:12]  But that's how emotional the thing was for him.
[01:34:16]  And Kohlberger wanted to know what that was like.
[01:34:22]  And so it's his doctoral thesis.

=== The Psychopath Mark (13:06) ===

[01:34:24]  And then he goes out and does it.
[01:34:27]  Over and over and over.
[01:34:28]  That's what's so chilling about it.
[01:34:30]  It's like, not that you would excuse any murders, but just that to have killed four innocents, one after the other in the course of a short 25-minute span, according to what we read in the affidavit.
[01:34:44]  It's like, it's just hard to get your arms around.
[01:34:46]  And one of the things that I was wondering, it just seems incongruous.
[01:34:51]  Forgive me for being a simpleton, but how does that same man, if he did what the FBI and the cops say, stand up in court seeing his crying family, he's got two older sisters, a mom and a dad who seem to be lovely people by all accounts, and Mouth, I love you in the extradition hearing.
[01:35:10]  How does he love them?
[01:35:11]  Is it capable?
[01:35:13]  Is it possible for a man to both love his family, love any human being, and commit this kind of crime?
[01:35:20]  Yes.
[01:35:21]  In fact, you mentioned Ted Bundy.
[01:35:26]  Ted Bundy lived with a woman that he very much loved while he was killing.
[01:35:34]  And she actually turned him into the police based on a composite sketch.
[01:35:39]  And the police said, no, this is what the police said.
[01:35:42]  There were two women taken, abducted from Lake Samma Mish on a warm summer day in the Seattle area.
[01:35:52]  And in the process of investigating these missing women, they hadn't found their bodies yet.
[01:35:58]  Investigating what happened to these women, they talked to a lot of people.
[01:36:02]  And some of them said, yeah, this guy came up to me and said, can you help me get my boat off my car?
[01:36:08]  And well, what did he look like?
[01:36:11]  And so they were able to develop a composite sketch of the person they were looking for.
[01:36:16]  It was in the newspapers.
[01:36:18]  The woman Ted Bundy was living with saw it and, oh, I'm like, oh, oh, and people said, Ted, they heard him tell women he was trying to get to his car.
[01:36:32]  Hi, I'm Ted.
[01:36:33]  Can you help me with blah, blah, blah.
[01:36:35]  She is living with Ted.
[01:36:38]  She looks at this composite sketch.
[01:36:40]  Oh, and he wasn't there.
[01:36:42]  He wasn't with her on that Sunday.
[01:36:44]  And when he came home from wherever he told her he was, he was exhausted.
[01:36:49]  She'd never seen him like that.
[01:36:51]  And he just lay down on the floor.
[01:36:52]  And so I'm so tired of him.
[01:36:53]  He killed two women.
[01:36:56]  And she went to the police and said, what I basically just told you, my boyfriend, blah, blah, blah.
[01:37:04]  The reason they didn't believe her, Megan, is nobody who's living with a woman, and this woman had a child, a daughter, in a warm, loving, sharing, caring, romantic relationship would kidnap and kill other women.
[01:37:27]  And that circles back to your point.
[01:37:31]  How can he stand up in court and mal, I love you to his family?
[01:37:36]  Is he capable of love?
[01:37:38]  Yes.
[01:37:39]  Some psychologists call it compartmentalization.
[01:37:42]  They can put their evil or dastardly or gruesome fantasies in a particular place.
[01:37:52]  And then everything else is normal.
[01:37:56]  So you can be a psychopath, someone who enjoys murder and still be capable of actual love for other human beings.
[01:38:04]  It does sound strange, but yes, it is possible.
[01:38:07]  Gosh, it's chilling.
[01:38:09]  The mark of a psychopath is not that they can't love.
[01:38:13]  It is the two most important things about them is that they feel no remorse for hurting someone, someone that they, and they feel no guilt.
[01:38:27]  They feel no guilt, no remorse, lack of empathy.
[01:38:32]  And, but they can have relationships that are warm, happy.
[01:38:39]  You know, they're not brutal.
[01:38:41]  Dennis Rader, also known as BTK, mind, torture, kill, married two kids.
[01:38:48]  They were absolutely stunned when they found out that he, their dad, her husband, was going into women's homes and raping and killing them for years.
[01:39:02]  I've interviewed his daughter.
[01:39:04]  I've interviewed his daughter and his daughter's actually speaking out, the BTK killer's daughter now.
[01:39:09]  And she's labeling this as obviously speculative, but she's wondering whether there was any connection, actual connection or just inspiration between Brian Kohlberger and her dad, BTK killer, Dennis Rader.
[01:39:23]  Because the woman who's apparently studied the BTK killer more than anybody and wrote a whole book about him was the professor, I think undergrad of Brian Kohlberger in getting his criminology, I think, masters.
[01:39:38]  And the daughter of the BTK killer, who again is like, oh my God, my father's a serial killer.
[01:39:43]  Like she did not know, but she's admitted it and she's given interviews about it, sees similarities between the two and definitely thinks her father, who's still alive and in jail, would 100% be happy to mentor another killer into, you know, how he did it.
[01:40:01]  And so, I mean, like, it's speculative, but it's kind of chilling when you see there actually is a little bit of a connection there.
[01:40:08]  Yes.
[01:40:10]  You're talking about Dr. Catherine Ramslin, a famed forensic psychologist that was his professor.
[01:40:20]  Regarding there is a difference between Dennis Rader and how what he did to his victims and what Kohlberger did.
[01:40:32]  There is no evidence, important, of sexual assault.
[01:40:38]  That does not mean he was not sexually aroused in some way while he was committing these crimes.
[01:40:49]  May not, but people, I know, so, well, well, there was no rape.
[01:40:53]  There was no sexual assault.
[01:40:55]  Doesn't mean the killer wasn't sexually aroused and enjoying the killing.
[01:41:01]  Dennis Rader raped, brutalized women before he killed them.
[01:41:09]  We don't have information.
[01:41:12]  The information regarding this is saying, no, that did not happen to any of these victims.
[01:41:17]  Yeah, that's right.
[01:41:18]  So, and I should say again, there was a bartender who said he had to speak with Brian Kohlberger about his inappropriate comments to waitresses, a bartender, female, and customers at the bar.
[01:41:32]  He was just inappropriate.
[01:41:33]  He was saying negative things, calling them names if they didn't respond to him.
[01:41:37]  He doesn't seem to have ever had much of a love life.
[01:41:39]  His downstairs neighbor who said, or neighbor, who said he was up at all hours, said she saw him one time drive a woman home, but the woman got right out and left.
[01:41:48]  And she wasn't like coming in with him, but didn't seem to, you know, recall a bunch of love interests in his life.
[01:41:57]  There is this interesting thing that I, again, please understand speculative, but it's getting some traction because a woman who went to school with Brian Kohlberger is saying she believes this is his voice.
[01:42:08]  And here's what happened.
[01:42:11]  Someone on, was it, let me see, 1220?
[01:42:16]  Is it 12?
[01:42:16]  It got posted on, I get my, on 1220, on the 30th.
[01:42:21]  Okay, I wrote over my own text here.
[01:42:24]  On 1230.
[01:42:26]  So right after the arrest, a podcast host called T Rev tweeted out a conversation he was having saying, I am the guy who originally had this caller on the phone on my podcast, which is called Allegedly with T Rev, T-R-E-V.
[01:42:44]  Now everyone is saying this is the killer, but I do not know this to be a fact yet.
[01:42:49]  So please let everyone know.
[01:42:53]  There is an exchange between the caller who labeled himself Dave and T. Rev that was about the Idaho murders.
[01:43:04]  And by the way, one of the victims, the male victim, was in Sigma Chi, the fraternity, and he and his girlfriend, who was also killed, had been at a Sigma Chi party that night.
[01:43:14]  So again, this could just be completely random and have nothing to do with Brian Kohlberger, but somebody who went to school with him is saying she believes this is his voice.
[01:43:21]  Others have come forward to say they also believe this is his voice.
[01:43:24]  And it did happen prior to 1230.
[01:43:27]  So it happened prior to his arrest.
[01:43:29]  It was just posted by T. Rev calling attention to it on T30.
[01:43:33]  Here's the exchange.
[01:43:36]  I live in a college town and I've worked with probably at least 10 Sigma Chi members.
[01:43:47]  And, you know, the one thing that every single one of them, I feel like has asked me is, if you were going to kill somebody, how would you get away with it?
[01:44:00]  And I just wonder if maybe if maybe this is nothing more than some kid in a fraternity trying to prove himself.
[01:44:15]  And that was it.
[01:44:16]  So you said some, you worked with five or six Sigma Chi kids and they asked you if you can kill somebody, they can get away with it.
[01:44:25]  Yeah.
[01:44:26]  Did I hear that right?
[01:44:28]  Yeah.
[01:44:28]  It's always been these dudes that were in the fraternity.
[01:44:35]  And so it makes me wonder if it's a thing that's in their culture that they ask to see how smart you are and whatever and what kind of answer you come up with and someone took it too far.
[01:44:51]  Again, we do not know if that is the voice of Brian Kohlberger.
[01:44:54]  But if it is, what do you make of that, Candace?
[01:44:59]  Well, the first thing that came to mind is perhaps, look, he's a doctoral student.
[01:45:09]  And his thesis is what's going on in a criminal's mind when they're committing the crime.
[01:45:15]  If I met someone, I find an sorority fraternity party and I met someone, oh, this is so-and-so.
[01:45:23]  Oh, what are you doing?
[01:45:23]  I'm working on my doctorate in forensic psychology.
[01:45:26]  Oh, that's very interesting.
[01:45:27]  I mean, everybody loves this, right?
[01:45:31]  People might have said, I've been asked, well, I bet I have people have said to me, I bet you know how to get away with murder.
[01:45:38]  I can see where he might have been out of function.
[01:45:41]  And oh, like, you know, oh, you're, you're, you're, you're this, you're that.
[01:45:46]  I bet, how do you get away with murder?
[01:45:48]  Might have been not as serious as the person calling took it seriously, it sounds.
[01:45:57]  Like these, these people, five or six of them were asking me how to get away with murder.
[01:46:06]  Maybe one of them took it too far.
[01:46:09]  Somebody took it too far, that's for sure.
[01:46:13]  But I think he was if that's you.
[01:46:17]  Is this offering insights?
[01:46:18]  If this is him, is this offering insights on his own state of mind?
[01:46:22]  Or is it really, do you think, a deflection of look into the Sigma Chi guys, like trying to push blame on somebody else?
[01:46:27]  Or is he trying to say, you know, like I'm going over the transcript here, where he puts the motivation, nothing more than some kid in a fraternity trying to prove himself, trying to prove himself.
[01:46:40]  If you, you know, if you can kill somebody and get away with it, like, would this be secretly his motivation potentially, or really just an attempt to point the finger at somebody else?
[01:46:51]  Could be both.
[01:46:53]  I think he was when he, when he's, he was projecting.
[01:46:57]  If this is, if the guy on the phone is the killer, then could be both.
[01:47:07]  Deflecting, you know, planting a seed, like, hey, maybe it's one of these fat guys.
[01:47:14]  And it also could be that he was saying, you know, he's been wondering how to get away with murder.
[01:47:24]  Right.
[01:47:24]  It's a bit of a tell.
[01:47:26]  Yeah.
[01:47:26]  And I will say back to your theory on the insult in cells.

=== Incel Projection and Betas (03:53) ===

[01:47:31]  Again, these are people who are, I guess, voluntarily or involuntarily celibate.
[01:47:38]  We do blame.
[01:47:39]  Yes, and blame others.
[01:47:41]  They divide humanity into categories.
[01:47:43]  Betas.
[01:47:44]  That's an incel.
[01:47:45]  Somebody, he would like to have sex, but he can't.
[01:47:48]  Stacies.
[01:47:49]  Stacy is the generic name for attractive women who shun betas.
[01:47:54]  Chads.
[01:47:55]  Chad is the name for sexually successful men who attract women despite being seen by the incels as dumb, by the betas as dumb.
[01:48:03]  And then there are normies.
[01:48:05]  Normies are the masses in between with average looks and intelligence.
[01:48:09]  So like the Stacy's and the Chads of the world are the enemies.
[01:48:14]  And it is possible that somebody like a Brian Kohlberger, if he was an incel, saw the couple that was killed that night as a Stacey and a Chad and the fraternity members as Chads and himself as like the innocent beta being judged negatively by these socially successful, beautiful people.
[01:48:34]  Again, speculative, but this is the job of somebody like you who's got to try to put together a profile of the killer and what motivates him.
[01:48:42]  And to me, that's that's, I mean, it's starting to sort of a picture starting to play out because you're right.
[01:48:47]  It's been very weird.
[01:48:47]  There's been no girlfriend to come forward.
[01:48:49]  Now he's 28 years old, Candace.
[01:48:52]  Right.
[01:48:53]  Right.
[01:48:54]  Certainly.
[01:48:58]  You know, you know, Megan, I'm, we've all met people that are judged to be not attractive that have a fabulous social and sex life because of their personality.
[01:49:15]  They are, they warm and charming and funny and all that stuff.
[01:49:19]  And Kohlberger, if it's, he's the guy, he's not unattractive, but the reports from people are he had a difficult childhood, teased a lot, overweight, did not have a close circle of friends.
[01:49:42]  And so he emerges into adulthood.
[01:49:45]  Basically, now he's 28.
[01:49:48]  And there, like I said, nobody's come forward.
[01:49:53]  Like I could understand a woman had, if a woman had been with him, she might be embarrassed and afraid to come forward.
[01:50:01]  But her friends would know.
[01:50:03]  I mean, if he had a girlfriend, other people would know he had a girlfriend.
[01:50:09]  And one of the things that struck me when I very when this happened the very first day and we saw photographs of the four victims was the my opinion extreme beauty of the two blunts.
[01:50:27]  They were killed first and one of them suffered more than the other, more stabbings.
[01:50:34]  I could just imagine maybe one of them dissed him or didn't diss him, but we know he was socially awkward with women.
[01:50:47]  Maybe he said something to one of them and what are you doing?
[01:50:51]  I saw they worked at a restaurant.
[01:50:53]  They worked at a restaurant.
[01:50:55]  There's been some reports that it was a vegan restaurant and he was a vegan.
[01:50:58]  But then my team tells me it was actually a Greek restaurant.
[01:51:00]  But in any event, who knows whether, you know, that August when he apparently began stalking, he met one or both of them in the restaurant.
[01:51:08]  Like it could be, that's a thing is it's it's not, you can't think of it like a rational person, you know, but you would say, I think, based on your experience, it could be a moment, could be a second, a very short interaction that turned his focus to one or both of these girls.

=== Death Penalty Debate (05:06) ===

[01:51:24]  Right.
[01:51:25]  And for the vast majority of humans, if somebody, if we get slighted or don't get what we want from someone, so what?
[01:51:39]  Okay, move on.
[01:51:40]  No big deal.
[01:51:41]  Don't get upset about it.
[01:51:43]  But there are people that cannot get over being, in their opinion, disrespected or not appreciated or I said hi to you.
[01:51:55]  Why didn't you say hi to me?
[01:51:57]  Well, maybe the person they said hi to was distracted and you know, but they take it personally.
[01:52:03]  And the crime scene, as described, I have not seen it.
[01:52:08]  The crime scene, the first people killed were those two beautiful blonde girls.
[01:52:13]  And it was brutal.
[01:52:15]  It was like, when I see something like this, with every stab, I hate you.
[01:52:21]  I hate you.
[01:52:22]  I hate you.
[01:52:24]  Wow.
[01:52:25]  And I think that's probably what happened.
[01:52:27]  Do I think he will ever, the killer will admit what he did in court?
[01:52:34]  Or no.
[01:52:35]  No.
[01:52:36]  What if they take the death penalty off the table?
[01:52:38]  And I realize right now, the victims' families, at least one of them, is saying, we don't want that.
[01:52:41]  We want the death penalty.
[01:52:43]  But, you know, sometimes they'll cut a deal or they take that off the table.
[01:52:47]  It's available in Idaho in exchange for a life sentence without the possibility of parole, if you'll just tell us everything we need to know.
[01:52:55]  I can't, well, I can't see him doing it.
[01:52:58]  You know who he might talk to?
[01:53:00]  Catherine Ramslin, Dr. Catherine Ramslin, his professor.
[01:53:06]  She's written 69 books.
[01:53:09]  She has a blog on psychology today.
[01:53:13]  She is the go-to person for forensic psychology.
[01:53:18]  And she taught him.
[01:53:20]  I don't think, you know, where a lot of what happens a lot of times, Megan, people will go to their deathbed and never admit what they did.
[01:53:33]  But sometimes in prison, they'll talk to other inmates because they're surrounded by like-minded people who might be interested and sympathetic.
[01:53:43]  And yeah, talk to me.
[01:53:44]  Tell me, you know, I'm in here for killing my wife.
[01:53:46]  I'm in here to kill my girlfriend.
[01:53:48]  What are you doing?
[01:53:50]  I can see him maybe in that circumstance telling someone.
[01:53:55]  I would, it would be great if whoever is charged with this pleads guilty and says what happened.
[01:54:04]  But I can't see him doing that.
[01:54:07]  Not at this time.
[01:54:09]  I mean, one thing we may see is a journal or some sort of, you know, notes.
[01:54:14]  I don't know, a manifesto since they've raided his house now.
[01:54:19]  They raided.
[01:54:20]  I can't remember what the word was when they arrested him at his parents' house, but they broke down the door.
[01:54:25]  They broke windows.
[01:54:26]  They went full bore in there with the element of surprise to get him.
[01:54:30]  So maybe he had something there.
[01:54:31]  Maybe he had left something back in Washington State.
[01:54:35]  You know, they did get him when he wasn't expecting it.
[01:54:38]  So that's one plus in our desire to figure it out.
[01:54:43]  Let me spend a minute on the family because the parents, again, like the dad was kind of, it's kind of sweet that the dad flew out there to drive home with his son.
[01:54:52]  I mean, you do wonder if your child were at a university that was 10 miles away from where there was this mass murder of four college-age students and you'd be paying attention.
[01:55:02]  I mean, a lot of people didn't pay attention to these murders.
[01:55:04]  You know, you see it in headlines.
[01:55:05]  You're like, oh, that's terrible, but then you kind of move on.
[01:55:08]  If your kid were 10 miles away from the murder, you'd definitely be clicking on the articles.
[01:55:12]  And by the way, criminology PhD student, you know, like right there, probably you'd be saying, we're going to discuss this over Thanksgiving.
[01:55:21]  They did put out that bolo, the be on the lookout for the white Hyundai Elantra in mid-November.
[01:55:29]  And it is remarkable.
[01:55:31]  You think like, I guess maybe your head doesn't go there, but this dad is driving home with his kid in a white Hyundai Elantra from just a few miles away from this murder scene.
[01:55:44]  And you know, he doesn't think of his son as a murderer, but he knows his kid's weird.
[01:55:48]  There's zero question he knows his kid's off.
[01:55:52]  Yep.
[01:55:53]  And I think it may be simply people explained by people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear.
[01:56:06]  And so he sees a white Elantra.
[01:56:09]  His son has a white Elantra.
[01:56:11]  He lives temp, but he couldn't have done this.
[01:56:17]  It's not within the realm of possibilities that this man who was a baby in my arms 28 years ago and I raised, he didn't do it.

=== Sister Clip Analysis (02:53) ===

[01:56:30]  It's not so it's it's um you can't you can't get through it.
[01:56:35]  Right.
[01:56:35]  It's it's by the way, that's called dynamic entry.
[01:56:37]  They did dynamic.
[01:56:38]  Well, let's spend a minute on the sisters, okay?
[01:56:40]  Because he's got two older sisters, one of whom is a psychotherapist.
[01:56:44]  One of whom, Candace, starred in a slasher movie.
[01:56:50]  She was, yes, she was an aspiring actress at one point, and she starred in a movie called Two Days Back.
[01:57:00]  You know, some to be charitable B-list B-grade movie.
[01:57:05]  I'm going to show you two clips.
[01:57:06]  Here's the trailer so you can get a flavor for what this was about.
[01:57:10]  And then I'll, she's not in the trailer, but then I'll show you a clip of the sister.
[01:57:14]  Here's the trailer.
[01:57:16]  When I was a little girl, I got lost in the woods.
[01:57:21]  It took them two days to find me.
[01:57:24]  Since then, I've avoided the woods.
[01:57:27]  Until now.
[01:57:34]  I'm not leaving you.
[01:57:51]  Oh my goodness.
[01:57:52]  Okay, here's the clip with his sister, one of his older sisters.
[01:57:59]  We were going to talk about recycling today, but something's come up.
[01:58:03]  A chance to make a real difference.
[01:58:05]  We've learned that a group of forestry students are planning to go up the mountain and cut trees in protected woodlands.
[01:58:12]  What do you want to do?
[01:58:14]  Stage a protest?
[01:58:16]  Yeah, a protest would be great.
[01:58:19]  You can't stage a protest.
[01:58:21]  Why not?
[01:58:22]  Because if we do go, there's no real proof.
[01:58:27]  That was her in the red shirt.
[01:58:28]  So just a bit of a bit of color on that.
[01:58:32]  Okay, gory, low-budget slasher movie where the characters are brutally stabbed, slashed, and hacked to death with knives and hatchets.
[01:58:41]  Amanda Kohberger appeared in that red shirt there as Lori in the 2011 flick two days back about a group of young students who go hiking in the remote woods and meet their grisly end at the hands of a maniacal killer who had won their trust.
[01:58:54]  My goodness, Candace.
[01:58:56]  What do we make of this, if anything?
[01:58:59]  G, do you think Brian watched that?
[01:59:05]  This is what the sister has to wrestle with now.
[01:59:09]  Yeah.
[01:59:09]  Yeah.
[01:59:10]  It's what when was this movie?
[01:59:14]  A few months.
[01:59:14]  2011.
[01:59:15]  No, no, 2011.
[01:59:16]  So it was 10 plus years.
[01:59:18]  10 years ago.
[01:59:19]  So he would have been 18.

=== Jail Behavior Questions (04:03) ===

[01:59:24]  An influential time in a young man's life.
[01:59:28]  Who knows?
[01:59:29]  Wow.
[01:59:31]  Speaking of his birthday, his birthday was on November 21st, eight days after these murders.
[01:59:41]  Would you be looking at that if you were profiling this guy in this case?
[01:59:47]  No, no, no.
[01:59:50]  That doesn't change significantly.
[01:59:52]  No.
[01:59:53]  Okay.
[01:59:54]  Because I heard another profiler saying, you know, could have been like a deadline.
[02:00:01]  Could have been a present to himself.
[02:00:04]  Could have been like BTK, by the way, I guess, started his killings when he was 28.
[02:00:09]  I don't know.
[02:00:09]  He was about to turn 28.
[02:00:11]  It's just, it's a little weird.
[02:00:13]  All of it is weird.
[02:00:16]  There is one report.
[02:00:18]  I think it's bogus.
[02:00:20]  I think it's absolutely bogus.
[02:00:21]  I'll say that out front.
[02:00:22]  But there's somebody who claimed she had been in the prison with him and that he was doing really inappropriate things and he was making inappropriate sexual remarks.
[02:00:31]  And my first thought when I heard it was, oh, he's going for an insanity defense, but you really, you can't raise one of those in Idaho.
[02:00:39]  The odds of him, I now think, having looked a little bit more at this woman, how's the woman getting the man's, like they normally don't house you in the same place, male and female.
[02:00:48]  But anyway, I now think she's a, she was a wannabe.
[02:00:50]  She wants attention and that this is BS.
[02:00:53]  But would it be consistent with a man like this to be like suddenly acting crazy, acting out in jail?
[02:00:59]  Would you expect that kind of behavior from a guy with this profile?
[02:01:05]  Well, I'd kind of like to know exactly what he supposedly did.
[02:01:11]  That's inappropriate, crazy, what that is.
[02:01:15]  But here's the thing.
[02:01:19]  His, when those handcuffs went on, him, essentially, if he's the guy, his life is over.
[02:01:30]  Life as he knew it is gone.
[02:01:34]  And that's a lot of stress that can induce all that kind of stress and trauma and traumatic all kinds of things can come from that.
[02:01:45]  So most people arrested for murder or a serious crime like this are automatically put on suicide watch, which means 24-7, there is someone watching them either on camera or by their cell.
[02:02:03]  At least in a perfect prison world, that's what's supposed to happen.
[02:02:06]  So we know Jeffrey Epstein.
[02:02:10]  But so it doesn't surprise me that if he was doing weird stuff, there's no indication he's mentally ill, none at all.
[02:02:21]  Right, to the contrary.
[02:02:22]  By the way, okay, so here, here, this is a report from the Daily Mail.
[02:02:26]  And again, keep in mind, some, I don't know whether this happened here, but some of these tableaus will pay you for a story.
[02:02:31]  So this woman, huge asterisks.
[02:02:35]  I don't believe her.
[02:02:35]  I'm going to say it outright.
[02:02:37]  But she gave an interview to them and said she had been in the jail for the six hours during the time he had been in the jail.
[02:02:44]  She's 50 years old.
[02:02:46]  She said that she witnessed him allegedly tried to expose himself, singing violent rap songs and threatening guards.
[02:02:53]  She claimed she heard him say, You come in here and I'll cut you.
[02:02:56]  I'm going to pee on your face.
[02:02:58]  Do what you want with me.
[02:02:59]  I don't give a shit.
[02:03:01]  And that he yelled at one guard, and that she heard a female guard tell the inmate to put his pants back on, but was unable to see his bottom half.
[02:03:08]  I don't, I'm calling BS on this one, Candace.
[02:03:10]  Me too.
[02:03:11]  Me too.
[02:03:12]  Yeah.
[02:03:14]  Got to stick with what the law enforcement is telling us.
[02:03:17]  And even that, you have to have a grain of salt on because we know that they lie to us for good reasons, but they do, they do mislead.
[02:03:24]  Right.
[02:03:25]  Right.
[02:03:25]  I don't believe that story at all.
[02:03:27]  Okay.

=== Unibomber Cabin Confessions (05:37) ===

[02:03:28]  I have, I have one parting question for you because we did a long show that has stayed with me on the Unibomber.
[02:03:36]  And I did not know, I've interviewed you many times, many cases.
[02:03:41]  I did not know that you sat with Ted Kaczynski, the Unibomber, in the Montana cabin after he was arrested and had an extraordinary few moments.
[02:03:54]  I don't know how long you were there with him that resulted in something of your sons being on the Unibomber in one of the most famous pieces of video we have of him.
[02:04:05]  So could you just tell that story?
[02:04:07]  Right.
[02:04:09]  Excuse me.
[02:04:11]  When I was told to go to Montana by the bosses, I had just moved to San Francisco, hadn't unpacked a lot of stuff, and the taxis outside to take me to the airport.
[02:04:26]  And my gosh, it's 23 below in Montana right now.
[02:04:31]  I ran in and to get my parket, couldn't find it.
[02:04:33]  So I grabbed my son's park.
[02:04:36]  And six weeks after I arrived in Montana was the day of the arrest, April 3rd.
[02:04:47]  And he was lured out of his cabin by a few of my colleagues and then brought down to a different cabin called Hunter's Cabin, where I was waiting for what would hopefully be an interrogation with my supervisor.
[02:05:08]  And so he was handcuffed behind his, you know, behind his back and sat at this little pine table.
[02:05:20]  This cabin, basically, hunters use them to sleep and eat, but there's no, there's a stove, there's no electricity.
[02:05:28]  There's the only heat would come from a stove.
[02:05:31]  And he was at this little pine table.
[02:05:35]  And he wanted to see the affidavit for the search warrant.
[02:05:41]  It was 100 pages.
[02:05:43]  And I stood over him behind him, turning the pages one by one.
[02:05:49]  And I remember thinking, this guy's 54 and he doesn't need glasses.
[02:05:53]  I was kind of jealous about that.
[02:05:56]  And so he looked at my boss and he said, well, they say if you're ever in trouble, you shouldn't talk.
[02:06:04]  You shouldn't say anything.
[02:06:05]  So I'm not going to say anything.
[02:06:07]  I want a lawyer.
[02:06:09]  So that was that.
[02:06:10]  Couldn't talk to him.
[02:06:11]  Once somebody invokes that constitutional right, as you know, no more talking, no more questioning about the case, about any evidence, anything related to that.
[02:06:23]  And so people were in and out of the cabin, my boss, some other agents that had worked on the case.
[02:06:30]  And there was a time, they had to have somebody with them all the time.
[02:06:33]  There was a time when I was in there and I sat across the table from him.
[02:06:39]  I could have reached across and wait, I did reach across and touch him.
[02:06:44]  I was wearing my son's parka and Kaczynski was shivering.
[02:06:52]  And so I took my parka off and put it over his shoulders.
[02:06:57]  That was the only thing I could do.
[02:06:58]  Of course, his hands are, he's cuffed behind that.
[02:07:02]  And we had a chat.
[02:07:04]  He gave me cooking lessons, how to cook turnips on an open stove.
[02:07:11]  And I asked him what it was like to live off the land.
[02:07:15]  It was a very awkward conversation.
[02:07:19]  Had it been a date, a blind date, I never would have seen him again.
[02:07:25]  Not a good conversationalist.
[02:07:27]  And then eventually the agents in his cabin were able to identify a chemical that they found in a jar as identical to a chemical found to detonate a bomb that resulted in someone's murder.
[02:07:45]  And so at that point, now we could arrest him.
[02:07:48]  And so my bosses came in and said, you're, you know, you're under arrest now.
[02:07:55]  It was about five hours after we got him out.
[02:07:58]  And they put him in shackles and took him out.
[02:08:01]  And that picture that you're referring to was taken by a University of Montana art major majoring in photography.
[02:08:10]  He was listening on a police radio or something, I guess, and he was at Helena, Montana Jail, which probably has two cells.
[02:08:18]  You've seen it in every Cowboy movie you've ever seen.
[02:08:21]  And that he took that picture.
[02:08:23]  And when I got my jacket back a few days later, Megan had an official Unibomber dirt on the collar.
[02:08:33]  Goodness.
[02:08:34]  Stripes.
[02:08:36]  It's so extraordinary.
[02:08:37]  It's just an example of how close you've been and how important you've been to some of the biggest criminal investigations of our time.
[02:08:46]  We had Terry Turchy on, who, you know, you know, and it was critical in that whole thing.
[02:08:50]  It was episode 227, if people want to go back and listen to it.
[02:08:53]  It was actually one of my favorite episodes.
[02:08:55]  I just found that whole case fascinating.
[02:08:58]  It's another guy, brilliant.
[02:09:00]  He killed people through mailbombs and hurt a lot of people through mailbombs.

=== Mailbomb Killer Profile (00:48) ===

[02:09:05]  But we needed somebody like Candace to help create the profile of who would do this because that was a mystery for years, for years, who could be doing this.
[02:09:14]  And ultimately, you got your man.
[02:09:16]  Candace, thank you so much.
[02:09:18]  I hope we can talk again soon.
[02:09:19]  Absolutely.
[02:09:20]  Thank you, Megan.
[02:09:21]  You bet.
[02:09:22]  And listen, everybody, you can listen to Killer Psyche everywhere you get your podcasts, and you should, with new episodes dropping on Tuesdays and Killer Psyche Daily exclusively on Amazon music every day.
[02:09:34]  Unlike so many of the people out there, Candace is somebody who actually knows what she's talking about.
[02:09:39]  She's got the history and service to our country to prove it.
[02:09:42]  Thanks for joining us today and for all week and have a great weekend.
[02:09:46]  We'll talk on Monday.
[02:09:49]  Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show.
[02:09:51]  No BS, no agenda, and no