The Megyn Kelly Show - 20211021_vaccine-freedom-chinas-military-might-and-woke-med
Aired: 2021-10-21
Duration: 01:26:58


=== Forced Resignation Over Vaccine (03:13) ===

[00:00:00]  Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations.
[00:00:12]  Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly.
[00:00:13]  Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show.
[00:00:15]  Today, a broadcast exclusive interview with former ESPN reporter Allison Williams, former as of about 48 hours.
[00:00:24]  Allison was forced to leave the job she loves because she refuses to get the COVID vaccine.
[00:00:30]  She is here and ready to talk about it.
[00:00:32]  We're also going to be joined by Senator Josh Hawley, and we'll be talking about the growing backlash against President Biden's forthcoming federal vaccine mandate.
[00:00:40]  They're finally getting around to having OSHA write this regulation on an emergency basis so they can get rid of the opportunity to comment.
[00:00:48]  That's coming down as some record number of groups are apparently going into the White House and complaining and raising serious questions and concerns about how this is actually going to play out.
[00:01:00]  That order is going to affect some 80 million workers, but we're also seeing state by state municipalities enforce, impose, and enforce these vaccine mandates.
[00:01:10]  And we're seeing cops resign and get fired, firefighters resign and get fired, first responders resign and get fired, corrections officers.
[00:01:17]  You go down the list, and it appears very much like public safety is about to be jeopardized as a result of these vaccine mandates, which not everyone is going to obey.
[00:01:32]  So, what are we going to do about it?
[00:01:34]  I mean, you'll hear a theme throughout this show the National Guard, the National Guard.
[00:01:37]  I mean, the National Guard, they apparently think is Waldo because they're going to need the National Guard everywhere.
[00:01:42]  They want them, reportedly, they're considering them for the supply chain problem.
[00:01:46]  Maybe they're going to go, you know, act as truckers.
[00:01:49]  They're going to go act as longshoremen.
[00:01:51]  They're going to go unload cargo.
[00:01:55]  Maybe.
[00:01:55]  I don't know.
[00:01:56]  The White House was considering it, though, for now, apparently, no.
[00:01:59]  But they're going to have them step in for first responders in New York, in other cities now.
[00:02:03]  I mean, great.
[00:02:05]  Are they qualified to do all that?
[00:02:08]  We'll talk about it with Senator Hawley, along with the problem down at the border.
[00:02:11]  We just got new numbers in.
[00:02:14]  The numbers have soared to the highest levels ever recorded, the arrests at the border this year.
[00:02:20]  And now we get news of secret middle of the night flights of migrants from Texas to the Northeast, actually, steps from where we live here.
[00:02:27]  And why on earth, by the way, is the White House now saying it welcomes stiff competition when it comes to China reportedly launching supersonic weapons?
[00:02:39]  Okay, Charles C.W. Cook went off on this on the National Review podcast, the editors the other day.
[00:02:45]  It was a thing of beauty.
[00:02:46]  I'm going to play some of it before you.
[00:02:47]  But we're talking about the potential annihilation of some untold number of Americans.
[00:02:53]  Why are we welcoming China's development there?
[00:02:58]  What is Jen Psaki talking about?
[00:03:00]  And why wasn't that immediately disavowed by President Biden?
[00:03:04]  There's a lot to go over today.
[00:03:06]  And we're also going to get to just a bit later in the show a deep dive into the woke media.
[00:03:10]  With the author of a brand new book that's making a lot of news.

=== Beliefs First Over Respect (02:56) ===

[00:03:14]  First, though, let's start with Allison.
[00:03:17]  After 10 years with ESPN, her last day was Tuesday.
[00:03:21]  She first spoke out about her decision to leave in an incredibly emotional video and powerful video on Instagram.
[00:03:28]  I have been denied my request for accommodation by ESPN and the Walt Disney Company, and effective next week, I will be separated from the company.
[00:03:38]  I am also so morally and ethically not aligned with this.
[00:03:45]  And I've had to really dig deep and analyze my values and my morals.
[00:03:53]  And ultimately, I need to put them first.
[00:03:57]  And the irony in all this is that a lot of those same values and principles I hold so dear.
[00:04:03]  Are what made me a really good employee.
[00:04:05]  I don't know what it's like to run a multi billion dollar company and to have shareholders and board members and financial quotas to answer to, and not to mention societal and I'm sure political pressures.
[00:04:16]  So I respect that their values have changed.
[00:04:19]  I had hoped they would respect that mine did not.
[00:04:23]  And ultimately, I cannot put a paycheck over principle.
[00:04:28]  And I will not sacrifice something that I believe and hold so strongly.
[00:04:36]  To maintain a career.
[00:04:38]  And so many of the people who are in the same situation as me are serving society and benefiting this country in ways I could never do.
[00:04:46]  They are nurses, they are teachers, they are doctors, they are police officers and first responders.
[00:04:52]  They are, most importantly, our military.
[00:04:54]  And they too are pilots.
[00:04:57]  They too are choosing to put their beliefs first.
[00:05:01]  And I just want you all to know I stand with you.
[00:05:05]  But I also want people to know who support these mandates.
[00:05:09]  That I fight for you.
[00:05:12]  Because if this is the direction we take our country, there will come a time when the government or corporations mandate you to get something that does not align with your values.
[00:05:26]  Power given is seldom returned.
[00:05:29]  And when that day comes, I want you to at least know that we fought and we tried.
[00:05:36]  Allison Williams joins me now.
[00:05:38]  Allison, I'm so sorry that you were placed in this position.
[00:05:42]  And we're forced to make this kind of a choice.
[00:05:44]  I, of course, understand all the blood, sweat, and tears that go into breaking into the broadcast news business, getting a job at a place like ESPN.
[00:05:52]  And I could tell just having watched the whole Instagram video how much you loved, loved, loved your job.
[00:05:58]  So let's go back to the beginning.
[00:06:00]  You're a new mom.
[00:06:01]  You had a baby boy, your first child in 2020, live.
[00:06:05]  2019.
[00:06:06]  2019.
[00:06:06]  Okay.
[00:06:07]  Yeah.
[00:06:08]  And you and your husband are thinking about having a second baby.

=== Pregnancy Risks and Hesitancy (15:05) ===

[00:06:11]  And that's, as I understand it, sort of where your vaccine hesitancy.
[00:06:15]  Came from?
[00:06:17]  Yeah, I don't even want to call it vaccine hesitancy.
[00:06:19]  I think it's vaccine awareness.
[00:06:21]  When you are trying for a child or when you are with a child, there's a lot of difficult decisions that you have to make about what you put in your body, what you don't put in your body.
[00:06:31]  And that's what ultimately led me to my decision that there's no way I was comfortable with receiving this vaccine.
[00:06:38]  There just wasn't enough data for me.
[00:06:41]  Trust me, I've heard the sound bites, I hear the safe and effective over and over, safer.
[00:06:46]  For pregnant women and no impact on fertility.
[00:06:50]  But when I went to these websites that people were criticizing me for not reading, I did not get a good feeling about this.
[00:07:00]  It's pretty obvious if you go to the CDC or the ACOG or any of these websites that people steer you to that the data is still being collected.
[00:07:09]  They acknowledge that it is still very limited.
[00:07:12]  So for me personally, knowing that it was based on, and this is in their words, What they know about mRNA technology and in studies performed in animals, knowing that pregnant women were not part of the clinical trial and that it was still immediately approved for use in pregnant women when usually something like that takes five plus years to establish safety, that didn't sit well with me.
[00:07:36]  And it made me very uncomfortable.
[00:07:37]  And I expressed those concerns to my doctor and he supported me.
[00:07:41]  He said, Look, you are very low risk for COVID.
[00:07:44]  I understand your concerns.
[00:07:46]  We can't say with 100% certainty these injections will have no impact.
[00:07:51]  For me, the risk benefit analysis just did not weigh out in favor of getting the vaccine.
[00:07:57]  So let's talk about that.
[00:07:59]  The ACOG is American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and they're very pro vaccine.
[00:08:05]  Including for pregnant women.
[00:08:07]  So let's just get that, what they say, out of the way so that we can then talk about why it didn't resonate with you.
[00:08:13]  Okay, because this is, of course, the way the news gets into this more expectant moms died of COVID in August than in any other month of the pandemic.
[00:08:23]  There's an emergency alert to recommending urgent action to boost the vaccine among women who are pregnant, breastfeeding, or trying to get pregnant, and so on.
[00:08:32]  The ACOG recommends the shot for all expectant mothers.
[00:08:36]  CDC says no link found between the shots and miscarriage.
[00:08:39]  No link found between the shots and fertility problems.
[00:08:42]  CDC in August released the results of an analysis that found women vaccinated during pregnancy are not at higher risk of miscarriage.
[00:08:50]  Among the nearly 2,500 pregnant women in the study who received an mRNA vaccine during the first 20 weeks, they say the miscarriage rate was 13%.
[00:08:58]  Normal rate of miscarriage in a healthy pregnancy without a COVID vaccine is between 11 and 16%.
[00:09:04]  So, all of that is what they're pointing you to to say, you know, there's no Real risk in getting the shot, either when thinking about becoming pregnant or when pregnant?
[00:09:16]  Yes.
[00:09:16]  And they also acknowledge that it's still being gathered.
[00:09:20]  This is based on what they know at this time.
[00:09:22]  These vaccines have been out for less than a year.
[00:09:25]  There can be congenital issues that are present at birth that don't manifest for two, three, four, five years later in life for a child.
[00:09:33]  This isn't just about having a healthy pregnancy or a healthy delivery.
[00:09:37]  This is about creating a healthy human.
[00:09:40]  So for me, The data is still being collected.
[00:09:44]  It's still being analyzed.
[00:09:46]  The link perhaps has not been established yet.
[00:09:49]  And I would personally like more time before I'm comfortable with receiving something that could potentially impact me, a child I'm hoping to conceive or may have.
[00:10:00]  So that is not enough for me to take that risk.
[00:10:05]  And the other part of it, Megan, is just because something hasn't been proven unsafe.
[00:10:11]  Does not make it inherently safe.
[00:10:14]  It took decades to prove that smoking was unsafe.
[00:10:18]  And during those years, doctors and scientists stood up and said, nope, no link to tobacco and lung cancer.
[00:10:25]  It's perfectly safe.
[00:10:26]  We recommend this brand.
[00:10:28]  We recommend this brand for pregnant women.
[00:10:29]  No problem here.
[00:10:31]  And 30 years later, what did we learn?
[00:10:34]  And the reason that's so difficult is because there were people who smoked and never got lung cancer.
[00:10:40]  There were people who got lung cancer.
[00:10:42]  Who did smoke.
[00:10:43]  And then there were people who smoked and never got it.
[00:10:45]  So it's hard to establish the correlation between something you're putting in your body that doesn't immediately impact it, but may down the road.
[00:10:55]  These things take time, in my opinion.
[00:10:58]  So the absence of proof that it's unsafe for me does not make it inherently safe.
[00:11:03]  And the other thing they say, Megan, is the benefits outweigh the risks for pregnant people.
[00:11:08]  Here's the thing my risk for COVID was very, very low.
[00:11:12]  I'm healthy.
[00:11:13]  I'm not overweight.
[00:11:14]  I have no underlying conditions.
[00:11:16]  I have my own unique health background.
[00:11:19]  I focus on my health.
[00:11:20]  It is a priority in my life.
[00:11:21]  I've been supplementing my immune system since January of 2020 when we realized this was going to be a pretty nasty flu season.
[00:11:30]  So it's something that is a priority for me in my life.
[00:11:34]  The other part, Megan, is I got COVID.
[00:11:36]  It was a very mild illness for me.
[00:11:39]  I'm thankful for that.
[00:11:40]  I know that's not the experience of everyone.
[00:11:42]  I have natural antibodies.
[00:11:44]  Everything we know about natural immunity has proven throughout the years that it is far superior to any vaccine we could ever manufacture.
[00:11:52]  In fact, the Wall Street Journal even acknowledges the purpose of a vaccine is to induce an immune response similar to that of a natural infection without the risks of illness and sickness.
[00:12:05]  So, I have in my body what this vaccine hopes to achieve.
[00:12:09]  So, again, the risk benefit for me as an individual just is not in favor of getting this injection.
[00:12:16]  Can I tell you, I feel uncomfortable even asking you these questions because the truth is, it's none of my damn business.
[00:12:21]  It's none of ESPN's damn business.
[00:12:22]  I just don't want to say no.
[00:12:24]  Right?
[00:12:24]  Exactly.
[00:12:25]  Like, well, you're on because it's a news story and so on, but doesn't this feel intrusive?
[00:12:31]  To me, it feels intrusive.
[00:12:32]  It's none of my business.
[00:12:33]  It's none of ESPN's business.
[00:12:36]  You're a mom.
[00:12:37]  You're hoping to become a mom to be again.
[00:12:40]  And if that's the decision you reached with your doctor, that should be the end of it.
[00:12:47]  Right.
[00:12:47]  And here's the thing, Megan I am fully aware that there are people who have received this vaccine prior to getting pregnant, while pregnant, and they're doing great and their babies are great.
[00:12:58]  And that is a wonderful, wonderful thing.
[00:13:00]  But when I went public with my decision and the reason behind it, I heard from even more women whose experience was not that.
[00:13:07]  And that does not, in and of itself, I understand, establish.
[00:13:12]  That the vaccine caused the issues they're having, whether it's menstrual irregularities or miscarriages and so forth.
[00:13:18]  I understand that.
[00:13:19]  Okay.
[00:13:19]  I want to make that very, very clear.
[00:13:21]  But my thought process was this if I get this vaccine and I go on to struggle to conceive, I miscarry, I have a child with congenital issues, I'm going to have to wonder is it because of that shot?
[00:13:37]  And I don't want to live with that.
[00:13:39]  I don't want to wonder is this why?
[00:13:42]  Did this pregnancy not come to term?
[00:13:44]  Because of this injection.
[00:13:45]  And every doctor can say, no, no, no, that's not why.
[00:13:48]  It's very unlikely.
[00:13:49]  Okay, but I'm going to have to wonder that.
[00:13:51]  And the only reason for me to get the injection was to save my job.
[00:13:55]  So what did I just do?
[00:13:56]  I put my job before my family and my future children, and I couldn't do it.
[00:14:02]  I mean, pregnant women make choices all the time about what should go in and what shouldn't.
[00:14:07]  You're not supposed to have soft cheeses, right?
[00:14:09]  Because it could cause this problem that hurts the baby.
[00:14:11]  Obviously, you're not supposed to drink alcohol.
[00:14:12]  You're not supposed to smoke cigarettes.
[00:14:14]  You're not supposed to do all this stuff.
[00:14:15]  And women, it's Forgo things that they might otherwise do because they tend to be excessively cautious about the life growing inside of them.
[00:14:24]  And in this circumstance, they look at you and they say, Well, you're overruled.
[00:14:29]  You're over.
[00:14:31]  We'll tell you what's best for you and the health of that child.
[00:14:35]  You don't get to choose about like you do with cheese or sushi, right?
[00:14:39]  It's like only with this are they saying you have to do it our way.
[00:14:43]  But women aren't.
[00:14:44]  I mean, the numbers are low when it comes to women who are pregnant who choose to be vaccinated.
[00:14:50]  According to our Data, fully vaccinated women who got the shot during pregnancy is less than 20%, just 19.2% of pregnant women chose to get fully vaccinated while pregnant.
[00:15:04]  That's not to say none of them did it prior, but they say fully vaccinated prior to pregnancy andor during pregnancy total is 34%.
[00:15:13]  Contrast that with 68% of the population over 18 that's vaccinated across the country.
[00:15:17]  So you're not alone.
[00:15:19]  In fact, you appear to be in the majority.
[00:15:22]  In your questions about this, did ESPN say anything to you about the fact that your doctor was backing you, about the fact that you do have natural immunity?
[00:15:32]  No, no.
[00:15:36]  And I ultimately requested a religious accommodation.
[00:15:40]  And I think this is an interesting part of the dynamic that I wasn't sure I wanted to share.
[00:15:47]  But so my doctor and my conversation agreed with me, supported me.
[00:15:52]  I have.
[00:15:53]  A belief that doctors are people you work with in health.
[00:15:57]  They don't tell you what to do, they suggest what you should do, and they work with you to find the best.
[00:16:04]  Decisions for your health.
[00:16:05]  I don't think they should be dictators.
[00:16:06]  And I think they give their opinions, right?
[00:16:09]  And you weigh that with your own.
[00:16:10]  So, in my conversations with my doctors, I expressed my concerns.
[00:16:13]  He understood them.
[00:16:14]  He supported them.
[00:16:15]  He said, Absolutely, whatever you need from a medical exemption support wise, we will do for you.
[00:16:21]  I 100% agree with your decision not to get this vaccine.
[00:16:24]  It's of very little benefit for someone like you.
[00:16:26]  And I can't tell you with 100% certainty that this is going to cause absolutely no issues.
[00:16:32]  So, he supported me.
[00:16:33]  But what's very interesting is I live in California.
[00:16:36]  And this state has made it very, very difficult for medical professionals to write exemptions for masks or for vaccines.
[00:16:43]  And they put a lot of pressure on our doctors.
[00:16:46]  And when I reached out to follow up with my doctor's assistant to request the information needed for my medical exemption, she said, Let me get back to you.
[00:16:55]  We're going to have a meeting as an office and determine how we want to go forward with this because there are so many women requesting this.
[00:17:04]  And they ultimately decided as a clinic that they would not.
[00:17:08]  Write any exemptions.
[00:17:11]  I was heartbroken.
[00:17:12]  I'd already started the process of applying for a medical exemption with ESPN, and I was told I would be supported.
[00:17:18]  I brought this up.
[00:17:19]  They said, We're sorry, we just can't, as a company, as a clinic, subject ourselves to the scrutiny that essentially will come with writing these exemptions.
[00:17:27]  So, do you see what they're doing to people?
[00:17:30]  They are essentially taking away what they believe is best for you because of the bureaucracy and the pressure that happens when you involve politics in medicine.
[00:17:40]  And this is a really dangerous space to occupy.
[00:17:43]  And it scares me that people are not only supporting this, but encouraging it.
[00:17:49]  Medical decisions need to be for individuals, not for the population in mass.
[00:17:55]  We just had David Zweig, a journalist who's been doing great work on COVID and the mask mandates and so on, on yesterday, wrote a great piece in New York Magazine and follow ups.
[00:18:05]  And he was saying prior to joining us yesterday, he was on the phone with doctors and respected clinicians and professors and so on.
[00:18:11]  And one of them had said, for God's sake, don't mention my name.
[00:18:14]  And he can get very few of them to go on the record.
[00:18:17]  By name, with their opposition to these mask mandates.
[00:18:22]  And it's the same when it comes to vaccine mandates, too, because of this very reason.
[00:18:26]  They know they're going to be shamed.
[00:18:27]  It's too much pressure.
[00:18:29]  They've just sort of shrugged their shoulders and said, it's better for me if I can stay out of it.
[00:18:34]  But even getting, like, even the fact that you found a doctor who would write you a medical exemption was progress.
[00:18:40]  You know, I talked with one mom just this week who was telling me she wanted a medical exemption for her son.
[00:18:47]  Her family history is.
[00:18:49]  Problematic when it comes to the heart and other issues.
[00:18:52]  And she did not want her teenager to be subjected to the vaccine.
[00:18:55]  And the doctor wouldn't do it.
[00:18:59]  And even if the doctor would do it, the school wouldn't accept it because it has to be his, he has to be diagnosed already with the heart issue.
[00:19:08]  As a mom, you know, like you don't have your baby yet.
[00:19:12]  You can't show your baby to ESPN and say, here are his problems and why I don't want it.
[00:19:17]  Like you're talking about creating a baby.
[00:19:19]  So your health is all that matters.
[00:19:21]  And if you can't get somebody to write this for you, you're left twisting in the wind.
[00:19:25]  Were you shocked?
[00:19:27]  Have they been kind to you in the past?
[00:19:29]  Did you feel like a valued employee?
[00:19:32]  Yes, always.
[00:19:35]  I can't say this enough.
[00:19:36]  I really loved my job.
[00:19:40]  It was the dream, it was the goal from the beginning.
[00:19:43]  And I've always enjoyed working for ESPN.
[00:19:48]  They've always purported themselves to be a family.
[00:19:52]  We use that word a lot.
[00:19:53]  When you're on the road with these people, you do become a family.
[00:19:56]  I mean, that is your road family.
[00:19:57]  There are stretches of the year when I would see my play by play partner more than my own husband because you're together so much between basketball and football when they overlap.
[00:20:07]  You do create a family environment on the road, absolutely.
[00:20:09]  And as far as management within ESPN, they've always been receptive to any concerns I've had, supportive.
[00:20:16]  And when I initiated this process of applying for an accommodation and when I expressed my concerns and my, I guess, reluctance to get this vaccine and what were my options, my reporting manager's response was, I'm sure we can work something out, right?
[00:20:31]  I mean, that's the logical thought.
[00:20:34]  Of course, we can figure something out.
[00:20:36]  Remember, Megan.
[00:20:37]  I worked college football all last season when there were no vaccines and I tested and I masked and I wasn't a threat to anyone when no one was vaccinated.
[00:20:46]  So, why is it now that anyone that wants the vaccine has it and should be therefore protected?
[00:20:53]  Why am I a threat now?
[00:20:55]  So, the logical side of me was like, of course, we can figure something out for me to continue to go to events and work on the road.
[00:21:03]  That was made very clear once he reached out to people.
[00:21:07]  Within HR, and I guess probably above him, if you will, that there was no exemptions for travel.
[00:21:14]  There was no way I was going to work events or go to games.

=== True Consent and Freedom (16:03) ===

[00:21:17]  That was the first thing that was taken away from you, as I understand it.
[00:21:19]  Yes.
[00:21:19]  Yes.
[00:21:21]  So we went forward from there.
[00:21:22]  And the tough thing, too, is my contract was up.
[00:21:25]  So I was in contract negotiations as I'm trying to navigate this decision.
[00:21:29]  And that was interesting and difficult at times.
[00:21:33]  So you're gutsy.
[00:21:34]  You're gutsy.
[00:21:35]  I mean, it's hard to get television jobs.
[00:21:38]  To take on an issue as dicey as this when you're in the middle of a contract negotiation, I mean, it just proves your sincerity to me.
[00:21:45]  Yeah.
[00:21:46]  I mean, I walked away from the largest contract in my career and it was contingent on me getting an injection, which I was morally, ethically, and medically opposed to.
[00:21:55]  So when it came down to it, I knew I couldn't get it.
[00:22:01]  And when they denied my request for accommodation, I was very surprised because I had hosted for them in the past and I have hosted virtually.
[00:22:09]  So I didn't know why I couldn't.
[00:22:10]  Continue to host shows virtually without causing an undue burden on the company, but they did not see it that way.
[00:22:18]  And I have to live with that decision.
[00:22:20]  Up next, I'm going to ask Allison about her statement in her Instagram video that she's doing this for everyone, not just she feels solidarity with the cops and the nurses and the teachers and the military guys who are in this position, but also for the people who support the vaccine mandates and her really profound thinking behind that.
[00:22:39]  Don't go away.
[00:22:45]  Here with me to continue our exclusive interview, Allison Williams, a former, now a former, sideline reporter for ESPN, who had to leave the network this week over its vaccine mandate policy.
[00:22:57]  I'm sure it's still jarring to hear that former, right?
[00:22:59]  It's like it happened so fast.
[00:23:00]  Just thinking that.
[00:23:01]  Right?
[00:23:02]  It's like this career you've invested 10 plus years in.
[00:23:05]  And in an instant, it's gone.
[00:23:08]  It's gone over something that just seems imaginary, like illusory.
[00:23:13]  This statement that.
[00:23:14]  You know, in order to keep the workplace safe, you, you, Allison Williams, you must get this shot.
[00:23:22]  It just defies everything I have come to know and all logic, honestly.
[00:23:28]  How can you spread something that you don't have?
[00:23:31]  If I'm willing to be tested regularly for COVID, why could that not suffice?
[00:23:37]  How am I a threat to people who have had the vaccine?
[00:23:40]  Why does it only work if everybody gets it?
[00:23:43]  Doesn't that mean then it doesn't work?
[00:23:46]  And you can spread it when you've had the vaccine anyway.
[00:23:49]  Yes.
[00:23:49]  And that's just that, like, we're learning so much now that we didn't know a few months ago about this vaccine.
[00:23:55]  So, why can we not just pause and say, okay, let's maybe reevaluate what it means to be vaccinated?
[00:24:02]  And the fact that we treat people who are choosing to forego this injection like they are the problem.
[00:24:09]  This pandemic of the unvaccinated, that's a dangerous and divisive statement that I have seen very little data to support.
[00:24:17]  So to feel like you are a threat to people around you, I don't think that's just wrong.
[00:24:23]  I think that's incredibly misguided and dangerous.
[00:24:26]  I mean, why are we vilifying people for making a different health choice than we have?
[00:24:31]  What did you make of that when Joe Biden issued his statement saying, We've been patient, but our patience is running thin?
[00:24:39]  I have never been so jarred by anything a president said.
[00:24:44]  And I know Trump said some really crazy things, but to hear the leader of the free world stand up and say, This isn't about your freedom.
[00:24:53]  I thought, Oh my God, it is always about our freedom.
[00:24:59]  This country exists on the principle of freedom.
[00:25:03]  We are the land of the free and the home of the brave.
[00:25:06]  And if we don't have freedom over our own bodies, if our bodily autonomy is not respected, This God given, constitutionally protected right to determine what we do with our bodies, we aren't free.
[00:25:19]  That was scary to me, honestly, Megan.
[00:25:22]  That was something a dictator says.
[00:25:24]  That is not something a leader of free people says.
[00:25:27]  What happened to the consent of the governed?
[00:25:30]  What happened to the power of the people?
[00:25:33]  Those are the two things that keep standing out to me when I analyze this debate or when I have this discussion with people.
[00:25:41]  It's two things it's freedom.
[00:25:42]  And it's consent.
[00:25:44]  And you can't have one without the other.
[00:25:46]  And I'm talking about true consent.
[00:25:48]  Everybody acts like, okay, well, this was your choice.
[00:25:50]  You chose not to get it.
[00:25:51]  So go get a different job.
[00:25:52]  That's not choice.
[00:25:53]  That's coercion.
[00:25:55]  Okay.
[00:25:56]  Consent is fundamental to everything we do if we want to be a free people.
[00:26:00]  Consent is the difference between two of the same acts, and one becomes a crime without consent.
[00:26:07]  And true consent, not pressure, not bullying, not you're going to lose your job if you don't do this.
[00:26:12]  That's coercion.
[00:26:14]  And if we can't have true informed consent, what do we have?
[00:26:19]  We don't have freedom.
[00:26:20]  And that is why I think it's so important for people to realize this is bigger than this mandate.
[00:26:26]  This is bigger than this shot.
[00:26:27]  There is something that is at play here that I don't know what it is, but it is chipping away at the very foundation of which this country was built on.
[00:26:37]  Well, that's the point I was teasing before we went to break.
[00:26:41]  And it was a very powerful way to end your piece because you said you stand with the nurses and the teachers and so on who.
[00:26:47]  Are in the same boat as you are right now.
[00:26:49]  But then you said, and we played a bit of it there.
[00:26:51]  I also stand with those who support the mandates.
[00:26:54]  I fight for you too.
[00:26:55]  And the great line power once given is seldom returned.
[00:26:59]  And what you're basically saying is beware, beware, because you may support this mandate, but not the next one.
[00:27:06]  And if we let the government and these employers roll over us on something as personal as our health care now, they'll only be emboldened the next time, the next cause, whatever it is.
[00:27:20]  And that's what I think people need to remember.
[00:27:22]  We all want to end this pandemic, right?
[00:27:25]  Nobody wants this to continue to harm people and to kill people and for this virus to have the effects that it has.
[00:27:32]  But at what cost?
[00:27:34]  Because this is setting a precedent for how we move forward within this country when it comes to bodily autonomy and freedom within health and employment.
[00:27:43]  And I just think this is a really, really dangerous place to go.
[00:27:46]  When you allow corporations who have never looked at your medical records, who have no idea of your health history, to decide what is best for you.
[00:27:54]  And force you to go against your own instincts, your own beliefs, your own religious beliefs.
[00:27:59]  When religion doesn't have any merit, that's concerning.
[00:28:04]  And I feel so frustrated by the people who say, Just get vaccinated.
[00:28:09]  We need to force everybody to get vaccinated.
[00:28:11]  We have to mandate this to get over it.
[00:28:13]  And I'm like, do you realize what you're giving away?
[00:28:16]  Because when you tell or allow the government or your employers the ability to dictate your health, I think that's a really scary place.
[00:28:25]  And there will come a time, I promise you, if this is the road we go down, where it's not going to align with you and where it's not going to be in your best interest.
[00:28:33]  Who knows what vaccines they're going to develop in the future and what disease they're going to say they need to prevent.
[00:28:38]  And this is in the public health.
[00:28:40]  And I just think that's a really, really scary place to exist.
[00:28:43]  And I wish people could see that they can believe everyone should get the vaccine.
[00:28:47]  They can support everyone getting the vaccine.
[00:28:49]  And they can know that the mandates are not the way to go about it.
[00:28:53]  Well, it's funny because I am vaccinated.
[00:28:55]  And I'll tell you, my doctor said to me, but I'm not a 37 year old woman trying to conceive a baby, by the way.
[00:29:01]  But my doctor said to me, I said, should I get the mRNA or should I get the Johnson Johnson?
[00:29:05]  And he said, you know, either one.
[00:29:06]  He said, but, you know, the mRNA vaccine, he said, at some point, I believe, It's going to vaccinate you against pancreatic cancer.
[00:29:14]  So he was kind of saying, No better time than the present to get comfortable with the technology because if they have a vaccine against pancreatic cancer, you're probably going to get it.
[00:29:22]  And I thought, Damn straight, I probably will.
[00:29:25]  But it could go the other way.
[00:29:26]  It could go to the point where it can vaccinate you against all sorts of medical illnesses.
[00:29:31]  And in the name of public health, in the name of reducing the cost of healthcare, suddenly the government's looking at everybody saying, You must.
[00:29:39]  We don't want to have to foot the bill for all these expensive cancer treatments.
[00:29:42]  Right?
[00:29:44]  This could be a watershed moment.
[00:29:46]  And what happens when they put an expiration date on your vaccination status?
[00:29:50]  What happens when your boosters aren't up to date?
[00:29:53]  What happens when you have an adverse reaction to one of these injections and you say no more and they say, yes, more, more, because it's expired?
[00:30:01]  There is a lot that could happen that I don't think we have the foresight to see.
[00:30:06]  But if you look at kind of the tea leaves, this is opening Pandora's box a little bit.
[00:30:12]  And I just, I truly believe that there.
[00:30:15]  There could come a time when it might be something you don't need and you don't want.
[00:30:21]  And once that precedent is set, there's no going back from that.
[00:30:24]  Or it's very, very difficult.
[00:30:25]  And that's why I realized months ago, Megan, like, this is going to be my hill to die on.
[00:30:31]  I really believe medical mandates are dangerous.
[00:30:34]  What's good for one is not good for all.
[00:30:36]  I mean, that's true of food or pharmaceuticals.
[00:30:38]  Even our president recognized that.
[00:30:40]  Yeah.
[00:30:40]  He was saying that before he was pro vax, he was anti vax mandate.
[00:30:44]  But let me ask you this because you mentioned bullying, and I'm.
[00:30:47]  I want to ask you what it was like when you had to sort of announce to them you weren't going to do it because you knew exactly what that would mean.
[00:30:53]  But before I get to that, I want to set the scene because we covered here on the show your colleague Sage Steele, who spoke out against the ESPN.
[00:31:02]  She co hosts SportsCenter against the ESPN vaccine mandate.
[00:31:07]  And she called the vaccine policy sick.
[00:31:10]  And then she was suspended.
[00:31:12]  That's just, this is October.
[00:31:13]  This is recent.
[00:31:14]  She was suspended and she was forced to apologize.
[00:31:17]  And I wondered how you were reacting.
[00:31:20]  When you saw that apology, and whether you thought that was under duress, it was all under duress.
[00:31:28]  Her getting the injection was under duress.
[00:31:31]  Sage is a beautiful soul and has become a very dear friend through all of this.
[00:31:35]  It's actually one of the things I'm thankful for.
[00:31:39]  She found the courage to speak on the mandates and the way she saw them.
[00:31:44]  And I had to find the courage to stand up to the mandates in the way I did.
[00:31:48]  And I give her so much credit for having the strength to say what she said.
[00:31:52]  Now, was it Probably the best way to go about handling it.
[00:31:57]  No, but I want you to consider too the state she was in when she did that podcast.
[00:32:03]  She had literally just gotten her shot.
[00:32:06]  That was why Jay Cutler.
[00:32:08]  Even noticed she had the band aid on her arm.
[00:32:10]  So, if you are opposed to getting this injection, if you object but then get injected, what kind of mental state are you in?
[00:32:20]  That was a traumatic experience for her.
[00:32:22]  She was forced to do something to her body she did not want to do to keep this job.
[00:32:26]  And she did it and she complied, but she was emotional and upset.
[00:32:32]  And honestly, she probably shouldn't have done the podcast because she was in that type of state.
[00:32:36]  And if you listen to the whole podcast and you know her, you can tell she is upset.
[00:32:42]  That was a traumatic experience for her.
[00:32:44]  And I can't tell you how many other people have reached out since I've gone public and said the same thing.
[00:32:49]  They were forced to do something to their body against their will.
[00:32:52]  Now, I'm not trying to over dramatize it, but that feels like a violation.
[00:32:59]  And she was in an emotional state when she said that.
[00:33:01]  And then she, of course, had to apologize.
[00:33:03]  But that's the frustrating part, I think, that's come out in all of this is that we are not allowed to dissent.
[00:33:11]  We're not allowed to say, hey, I'm not comfortable with this vaccine.
[00:33:14]  And this is why, no, no, no, that's vaccine hesitancy.
[00:33:17]  Now, people might not get the shot because of you and you're killing people and there's blood on your hands.
[00:33:21]  Well, wait a minute.
[00:33:22]  No, that's not what I'm saying.
[00:33:24]  I'm saying that's not comfortable for me.
[00:33:25]  I'm saying I don't support these mandates.
[00:33:27]  Why can we not disagree on this topic without being censored or punished or forced to publicly apologize?
[00:33:35]  These mandates are sick.
[00:33:37]  They are violating a person's right to their own body.
[00:33:40]  And I'm proud of her for saying it.
[00:33:42]  I'm sure it's something maybe she wishes she could have reworded.
[00:33:45]  In a more delicate manner, but I think she had a lot of courage.
[00:33:49]  Or maybe not, right?
[00:33:50]  Because they clearly suspended her.
[00:33:51]  Her job was in jeopardy and she did what she had to do to keep her job, which I'm sure she loves too.
[00:33:57]  So when you decided, I'm sure you sat down with your husband.
[00:33:59]  I mean, can you just, I just want to ask you about what it must have felt like to go in there and tell him it's not going to happen.
[00:34:08]  He's been amazing.
[00:34:09]  My whole family's been amazing, and I would not be here standing strong without them.
[00:34:16]  They knew from the beginning.
[00:34:18]  I think we all shared concerns about this vaccine and the risks it presents.
[00:34:22]  And to act like it doesn't present risks is being naive and uninformed.
[00:34:26]  You can go on VARS.
[00:34:28]  The deaths are up over 16,000.
[00:34:30]  There's been 80,000 plus hospitalizations.
[00:34:33]  I know what VARS means.
[00:34:34]  I know they have to investigate them.
[00:34:35]  But nonetheless, these are reported incidences, and that's all that we have to go on.
[00:34:40]  So I think we, as a family, were all very much aware that this was a decision that came with risks.
[00:34:45]  My husband and I went back and forth a lot.
[00:34:47]  This was a huge financial hit to our family.
[00:34:50]  He knew, as did I, there was nothing more important than growing our family.
[00:34:54]  I obviously felt very frustrated that I felt like I had to choose between the two, right?
[00:34:59]  Providing for my family or growing my family.
[00:35:01]  And he was supportive in every way possible.
[00:35:04]  He actually came to me at one point because obviously this is a conversation that's ongoing, right?
[00:35:08]  It's like you sit down, make a decision, and move on.
[00:35:10]  It was back and forth.
[00:35:11]  Do I get it?
[00:35:12]  Do I not?
[00:35:12]  Do I?
[00:35:14]  It was a lot of back and forth.
[00:35:16]  And he actually came to me one night and he said, Look, I know you have, Had concerns about this vaccine and you've said you're not getting it and so forth.
[00:35:24]  He goes, I just want you to know I know how hard you've worked for your career.
[00:35:29]  I know how much you love it.
[00:35:30]  And if you feel like this is something you have to do, I understand and I will support you, whatever decision you come to, because ultimately it is your body, it is your career, it is going to be your kind of battle to fight.
[00:35:43]  Right.
[00:35:44]  And he said, Whatever you choose, I support you.
[00:35:47]  And he has.
[00:35:48]  And I'm thankful.
[00:35:49]  That's the other part, Megan.
[00:35:51]  I'm thankful that I have a partner that does have a job.
[00:35:55]  And an income because some people are sole providers for their family and they didn't have that flexibility within their financial situation to make this decision.
[00:36:04]  Was it a huge hit financially?
[00:36:06]  Yeah, but we're not going to starve, we're not going to lose our house.
[00:36:08]  There's worse things to lose than your job.
[00:36:11]  You know, I've got some friends still in the Fox family over at Fox Sports, Allison.
[00:36:16]  I don't know, but there's no way somebody as talented and as smart as you are should stay, quote, on the sidelines for long.
[00:36:25]  Or more accurately, we need to get you back on the sidelines, actually physically doing your job.
[00:36:30]  Thank you.
[00:36:31]  I hope so.
[00:36:32]  I hope so.
[00:36:33]  It doesn't feel like it now, but I'm trying to have faith that God has a plan.
[00:36:36]  And maybe I can't see it now, but it's going to work out.
[00:36:39]  And I believe in my heart, I'm doing this for the right reason.
[00:36:42]  And I really just hope people can realize that these mandates come at a cost and there are real lives and real people being affected by them.
[00:36:49]  I'm not a bad or rational person.
[00:36:52]  I'm trying to do what's best for me and my family, like I think we all are.
[00:36:55]  And this has all become very divisive.
[00:36:58]  And I hope we can start to find some unity in the common goals of working together, like we used to say, working together to end this.
[00:37:05]  People who are foregoing this vaccine, they're not the enemy.
[00:37:07]  They're just people trying to do what's best for their health as well.
[00:37:10]  You did not deserve this.
[00:37:12]  And one thing I've learned over my years, As a professional from law to media, if you've got the goods, you'll land on your feet.

=== Religious Exemptions Matter (09:04) ===

[00:37:20]  You know, there's these rough times, but talent will win out in the end.
[00:37:25]  You will get snatched back up, if not by Fox Sports, then by somebody, and you will land on your feet.
[00:37:30]  And this will have been such a huge learning experience and character building exercise.
[00:37:34]  And hopefully, we'll be laughing all about it as you bounce your second child on your knee in the not too distant future.
[00:37:41]  All the best to you, Allison.
[00:37:42]  Thank you so much for coming on and telling your story.
[00:37:45]  Thank you, Megan.
[00:37:45]  Thank you for having me.
[00:37:47]  Wow.
[00:37:47]  Coming up, we're going to talk about some of the thousands, thousands of other people who are in the situation that Allison is in as well.
[00:37:54]  Thanks to Joe Biden's mandates, thanks to the sweeping mandates coming state to state in this country, and the increase in lawsuits that are being filed now as people's medical freedom is being taken away.
[00:38:10]  Joining me now is Senator Josh Hawley to discuss the latest in the supply chain crisis, the new historic immigration numbers.
[00:38:16]  And much, much more.
[00:38:17]  We're going to kick it off with the vaccine mandates, though.
[00:38:19]  So, Senator, what we realize today is that the deadlines in several states and cities are arriving for people to get these mandatory vaccinations with no testing options.
[00:38:31]  It was in many places, get the vax, or you can be tested twice weekly or every day or however onerous it was.
[00:38:38]  It was at least an off ramp for people.
[00:38:39]  No longer.
[00:38:40]  And there's just a couple examples.
[00:38:42]  New York City, this is actually a very big deal.
[00:38:44]  New York City, public employees now must get.
[00:38:47]  The vaccine.
[00:38:48]  It's mandated.
[00:38:50]  They had already implemented it on education and public health workers.
[00:38:53]  Now it's all city workers.
[00:38:55]  We're talking cops, firefighters, paramedics, first responders, prison guards, you name it.
[00:39:02]  All of them have to get at least one dose by next Friday, 10 29.
[00:39:06]  Otherwise, they're all going on unpaid leave until they provide the proof of vaccination.
[00:39:12]  We are going to have thousands, thousands of cops, firefighters, and other workers, correction officers included, off the job.
[00:39:20]  Soon in New York, if this stands, because you've got 30% of the cops in New York unvaccinated, 40% of the firefighters unvaccinated.
[00:39:26]  It's not like they can't get the vaccine now.
[00:39:28]  If these guys are unvaccinated, it's because they don't want the vaccine.
[00:39:31]  Correction officers in here in Massachusetts and elsewhere, 40% of the prison officers in Massachusetts not vaccinated, and so on.
[00:39:38]  50% of the paramedics in New York unvaccinated.
[00:39:41]  All these folks, they don't want it.
[00:39:43]  And now they're about to get fired or lose their paycheck unless they get it.
[00:39:48]  And to me, it seems like, other than a whack a mole lawsuit here, a whack a mole lawsuit there, It doesn't feel like there's a heck of a lot we can or are doing about it.
[00:39:58]  What say you?
[00:39:59]  Well, I want to say that first of all, thanks for having me on, Megan.
[00:40:01]  It's great to be back with you.
[00:40:03]  I am opposed to these vaccine mandates at the state level and especially at the federal level.
[00:40:08]  And I say especially at the federal level because it's just unconstitutional, it's unauthorized.
[00:40:12]  There simply is no legal authority for the president to direct private entities all across the country.
[00:40:18]  I don't care what their size is, whether it's 100 or more, or 50 or more, or two, it doesn't matter.
[00:40:23]  But he does not have the authority to direct them to force employees to get vaccines.
[00:40:27]  And, you know, I think that as to what you've been pointing out, I mean, it's quite the irony that our essential workers, as we called them all last year, the people who, in the teeth of this pandemic, went to work, kept us safe, delivered our food, educated our kids.
[00:40:44]  And now, when these same folks say, well, hold on, actually, I want to make my own informed medical choice.
[00:40:48]  I don't want to get the vaccine.
[00:40:50]  Now we say to them, oh, well, fall into line, shut up, or be fired.
[00:40:53]  You know, I mean, it is quite the turnaround coming from, frankly, this administration and its allies all across the country.
[00:41:01]  And I think it's a huge mistake.
[00:41:02]  I mean, the other thing about it, I'll say, is why would you want to drive people out of their jobs, these essential workers out of their jobs at this time?
[00:41:09]  I mean, Joe Biden and his allies are fomenting an unemployment crisis in the midst of every other crisis we're facing.
[00:41:17]  Yes.
[00:41:17]  So, you went to Stanford undergrad, you went to Yale Law School, you clerked for Judge McConnell, 10th Circuit, one of the most respected judges in the country, then on to clerk for Chief Justice John Roberts.
[00:41:28]  So, just in case our viewers don't understand, you're very well educated in the law, you're a practicing attorney.
[00:41:34]  What would you tell people to do?
[00:41:36]  Because the way I see it so far, the challenges by those who have said, I have natural immunity and therefore you shouldn't be able to force me are failing.
[00:41:44]  The challenges saying, you have to give me a religious exemption are doing better.
[00:41:49]  But I mean, I moved to Connecticut in September, and here the governor passed a law getting rid of the religious exemption for all public school students.
[00:41:59]  You're not even allowed to raise it.
[00:42:01]  And I do wonder whether that's constitutional or in any place, whether removing a religious or a medical exemption is lawful.
[00:42:11]  I think it's not, Megan, is my view on that.
[00:42:13]  And I think the religious exemption is the really key piece of this.
[00:42:17]  I think it's not lawful, it's not constitutional.
[00:42:19]  To say to students, to parents, to whomever, that if you have a sincere religious objection to getting this vaccine, that, oh, sorry, you're just out of luck.
[00:42:28]  First Amendment doesn't apply to you.
[00:42:29]  I mean, what we're dealing with here is what's called, what the law calls, the police powers.
[00:42:34]  And by the way, the police powers are something that states have.
[00:42:37]  The federal government doesn't have them.
[00:42:38]  That's why Joe Biden can't just go out and say, oh, I want you all to get the vaccine.
[00:42:42]  I'm going to force you to do it.
[00:42:43]  He does not have that authority.
[00:42:44]  At the state level, though, we've always said that while state governments can exercise general police powers, what they cannot do is trample on Constitutional rights in doing so.
[00:42:55]  And we have, there's lots of case law.
[00:42:56]  It's not like this has just never been thought of before, it's only being thought of in this context.
[00:43:00]  There's many cases over many years about religious objectors and others too on grounds of free speech and other things, but particularly when it comes to the First Amendment right of free exercise, conscientious objectors saying, I can't perform that activity.
[00:43:14]  I don't want to take that vaccine.
[00:43:16]  And we have long recognized under our constitution and our laws a religious exemption.
[00:43:21]  So I think now this new ground that some of these states are trying to break.
[00:43:24]  And frankly, the federal government's trying to do it too because they're trying to take away religious exemptions.
[00:43:29]  It's dangerous.
[00:43:30]  It's not just dangerous for this context, Megan.
[00:43:32]  It's dangerous going forward because it removes yet another check on government power telling people how they have to live their lives.
[00:43:40]  Yes.
[00:43:41]  And the thing is, like I know one mom who was told, and this is the policy at a lot of schools unless you're already on record as being an objector to vaccines, you can't raise a religious exemption now in response to the COVID mandate.
[00:43:53]  Well, that's crazy talk because not all vaccines were tested on.
[00:43:58]  Copies of stem cells, which Catholics and Christians in particular might very well have an objection to.
[00:44:04]  How can you raise a pre existing objection to a vaccine that didn't even exist about a year ago?
[00:44:10]  No, I think that's exactly right.
[00:44:12]  And this is another example of the narrowing down or attempted narrowing down of these religious exemptions and claims.
[00:44:19]  And your point, Megan, I think is really an important one.
[00:44:21]  Vaccines are different, they're composed differently, they're manufactured differently, they're made differently.
[00:44:27]  So, this is why we have a process where people can say, Well, listen, I have a religious objection to this vaccine for these reasons.
[00:44:35]  And then they can be heard.
[00:44:36]  But what you and I are talking about is they're not even able to be heard.
[00:44:39]  People come in and say, I've got a religious objection.
[00:44:43]  And they're being told by governmental authorities, no, just shut up and go away.
[00:44:46]  I mean, we're not going to listen to it.
[00:44:48]  We don't care.
[00:44:50]  We're not going to recognize it.
[00:44:51]  Boy, that is dangerous ground to break here.
[00:44:55]  And I think that I'm ultimately hopeful that as these cases make their way into the federal court system and probably up to the U.S. Supreme Court, I hope that the courts will continue our tradition in the country of saying, hold on, hold on.
[00:45:09]  You can't, just because the government feels strongly about it, doesn't mean they can suspend our First Amendment rights.
[00:45:14]  And I hope they'll uphold that in these cases as well.
[00:45:17]  Yeah.
[00:45:17]  We had a lawyer on from the National Civil Liberties Alliance the other day, and they're taking on especially government overreach when it comes to these vaccines.
[00:45:24]  And they're the ones who haven't done so well on the natural immunity, but are seeing some progress on the religious exemption.
[00:45:31]  So the cases are just playing out.
[00:45:32]  You know, it is a whack a mole strategy, unfortunately, because there's not that much people like you can do about it, right?
[00:45:37]  It's like maybe if the Republicans controlled the Congress and Joe Biden tried to pass a law, that'd be one thing.
[00:45:43]  But he's not even involving Congress.
[00:45:45]  This is him.
[00:45:46]  With the old Obama pen and phone making this happen through OSHA.
[00:45:50]  Yeah, you know what is particularly pernicious, Megan, about this and about his strategy is that he announced, Joe Biden announced this rule about requiring employers, 100 more people have to mandate people get the vaccine.
[00:46:04]  He doesn't have any authority to do it, but then he waited to actually publish the rule itself, to actually put it out as a law, as a regulation.
[00:46:13]  And because he waited for all of this time, there's been nothing to challenge in court.
[00:46:17]  So you have lots of employers who, Anticipating the rule, have said, Well, we're going to force you employees to start getting the vaccine.
[00:46:23]  And employees say, Well, hold on, hold on.

=== School Board Threats Escalate (10:02) ===

[00:46:25]  I've got rights.
[00:46:26]  I want to challenge this in court.
[00:46:27]  And there hasn't even been a rule on the books to challenge yet.
[00:46:30]  That is a deliberate strategy on the administration's part to try and force people, try to evade any kind of legal review, any kind of legal remedy.
[00:46:40]  I just think it's wrong, Megan.
[00:46:41]  I think that at the end of the day, courts will strike down the federal mandate because there's no authority for it.
[00:46:46]  But I think, by the way, I think Joe Biden knows that.
[00:46:50]  You notice that he's not out there saying, Oh, I definitely think I have the power to do it.
[00:46:54]  He's out there saying, I'm going to do it anyway.
[00:46:56]  Yeah.
[00:46:56]  And we'll be successful.
[00:46:57]  This has been a pattern with him when he understands he doesn't have the legal authority to do something like the thing with the landlords.
[00:47:03]  And then he does it anyway, understanding the courts are going to slap him down, but he wants the political points.
[00:47:08]  Listen, there's a lot to go over with Senator Hawley, including breaking news we just got from Merrick Garland, the attorney general, in extraordinary testimony about his DOJ cracking down on parents.
[00:47:19]  We'll bring you that sound bite and the senator's reaction next.
[00:47:26]  And an incredible moment on Capitol Hill.
[00:47:29]  News is breaking at this moment.
[00:47:31]  Just a short time ago, this happened.
[00:47:33]  Attorney General Merrick Garland appearing right now before the House Judiciary Committee.
[00:47:39]  He was just questioned about the Loudoun County, Virginia father, Scott Smith, who was arrested at a school board meeting after his daughter was allegedly raped in a school bathroom.
[00:47:53]  Merrick Garland, keep in mind, here's the background, okay, before I play the sound bite for you.
[00:47:57]  The National Association of School Boards wrote a letter to Merrick Garland's DOJ.
[00:48:01]  He's our attorney general, saying, We've got domestic terrorists running around at these school board meetings, i.e., parents who are making threats, who are out of order, and we need the DOJ and the FBI.
[00:48:12]  At the federal level, to crack down on these parents.
[00:48:15]  And one of the cases cited by the National Association of School Boards was the case of Scott Smith, who appeared at the Loudoun County meeting and objected to the fact that the school superintendent claimed no assaults in the bathrooms had taken place.
[00:48:29]  And indeed, his own daughter had been raped, I think, a week earlier.
[00:48:33]  All right.
[00:48:34]  So that's so Merrick Garland now is before the House Judiciary Committee.
[00:48:38]  He's being questioned.
[00:48:39]  You'll hear Chip Roy, a Republican from Texas, giving it to him about that dad.
[00:48:45]  And what the DOJ is doing.
[00:48:47]  Listen to Merrick Garland on this.
[00:48:50]  Attorney General Garland, are you aware that because Loudoun County prosecutors confirmed that the boy who assaulted this young girl in Broad Run High School is the same boy who wore a skirt and went into a girl's bathroom, sodomized, and raped a 14 year old girl in a different Loudoun County high school on May 28th?
[00:49:06]  Are you aware of those facts?
[00:49:11]  Are you aware further that the boy was arrested and charged for the first assault in July but released from juvenile detention?
[00:49:20]  This sounds like a state case, and I'm not familiar with it.
[00:49:22]  I'm sorry.
[00:49:23]  Do you agree with Loudon parents?
[00:49:25]  You said it is not okay to allow a child that has been charged with a rape to go back into a school in that public school system.
[00:49:31]  Again, I don't know any of the facts of this case, but the way you put it, it certainly sounds like I would agree with you.
[00:49:38]  I don't know the facts of the case.
[00:49:39]  Is the FBI or the Department of Justice investigating the Loudon School Board for violating civil rights or under authority of the State of Violence Against Women Act?
[00:49:48]  I don't believe so, but I don't know the answer to that.
[00:49:51]  Why not?
[00:49:51]  Because on June 22nd, at a school board meeting in Loudoun County, Virginia, the superintendent Scott Ziegler declared in front of the father of the girl who had been raped that the predator transgender student or person simply does not exist.
[00:50:04]  And that to his knowledge, we don't have any records of assaults occurring in our restrooms.
[00:50:08]  When this statement bothered the father of the girl, I'm a father of a daughter, I believe you are too, sir, the girl who had been raped, sodomized in the bathroom of a high school by a dude wearing a skirt, that father reacted.
[00:50:21]  Now, that father reacted by simply using a derogatory word.
[00:50:27]  Would that statement have bothered you if your daughter had been raped, if somebody said that it didn't occur?
[00:50:32]  Again, I don't know anything about the facts of this case, but derogatory words are not what my memorandum is about.
[00:50:37]  Well, the victim's mother is heard on a cell phone video telling the crowd what happened.
[00:50:41]  My child was raped at school, she said.
[00:50:43]  Behind her, the victim's father is seen being arrested, bloodied.
[00:50:47]  This man, this arrest of a 48 year old plumber became the poster boy for the new domestic terrorism, the Biden administration, the administration in which you serve.
[00:50:55]  Has concocted to destroy anyone who gets in the way.
[00:50:58]  Wow.
[00:50:58]  My guess still, Senator Josh Hawley, Republican of Missouri.
[00:51:01]  Senator, powerful moment.
[00:51:03]  And for the attorney general to say he's not familiar with that, the most well known of all the cases cited by that National Association of School Board in its letter, to which he responded in two days and clearly based his federal action on.
[00:51:17]  Yeah.
[00:51:17]  And in fact, he's testified also this morning, Megan, just to that point, that he did in fact base his memorandum.
[00:51:25]  Using the FBI to get involved in these school board meetings, he based it on the complaint from the National School Board Association that cites this case, the case of Scott Smith of the Plumber.
[00:51:36]  So the idea that he doesn't know the facts of the case means that he is either the most incurious person in the planet or that he's lying.
[00:51:44]  And in fact, we know the answer that he's just being untruthful.
[00:51:47]  Of course he knows.
[00:51:49]  If he doesn't know the facts of this case, Megan, he hasn't read or seen any news for the last month.
[00:51:54]  That's exactly right.
[00:51:57]  It's just absolutely ridiculous.
[00:51:59]  And can I just also say it's offensive?
[00:52:01]  And I got the same treatment just yesterday a federal judge nominee up before the Senate Judiciary Committee who has long advocated for biological males to use female bathrooms.
[00:52:13]  And has previously gone to court herself and argued that there is no evidence, no evidence that there would ever be any attack on a female by a biological male.
[00:52:21]  I said, What do you think of the Loudoun County case?
[00:52:23]  And she said, I've never heard of it.
[00:52:25]  I don't know anything about it.
[00:52:26]  So clearly, this is an administration tactic.
[00:52:30]  And it's just ridiculous.
[00:52:32]  So it's like either you're lying or your statement that there's no evidence of it is completely empty because you haven't done any homework whatsoever.
[00:52:42]  My 12 year old, Would see the Loudoun County case on virtually every website over the past two weeks.
[00:52:48]  And for him, for Merrick Garland, we actually have the soundbite.
[00:52:51]  It's Jim Jordan pressing him on whether, in fact, Merrick Garland was responding to that National Association of School Board letter claiming parents are domestic terrorists and should be treated as such, in which that guy's case was front and center as an example of why Garland needed to get involved.
[00:53:07]  Here's the soundbite.
[00:53:08]  First sentence of your memo, very first sentence.
[00:53:10]  You said, in recent months, there's been a disturbing spike in harassment, intimidation, threats of violence.
[00:53:14]  Yes.
[00:53:15]  When did you first review the data showing this so called disturbing uptick?
[00:53:19]  So I read the letter, and we have been seeing over time threats.
[00:53:23]  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[00:53:24]  I didn't ask you.
[00:53:25]  So you read the letter?
[00:53:26]  That's your source?
[00:53:27]  So let me be clear.
[00:53:29]  This is not a prosecution or an investigation.
[00:53:31]  Is there some study, some effort, some investigation someone did that said there's been a disturbing uptick, or you just take the words of the National School Board Association?
[00:53:38]  When the National School Board Association, which represents thousands of school boards and school board members, says that there are these kinds of threats, When we read in the newspapers reports of threats of violence, when that is in the context of threats of violence, the source for this, for the very first line in your mouth, Time of the Gentleman has expired, was the school participation letter.
[00:53:59]  Time of the Gentleman has expired, Mr. Deutsch.
[00:54:02]  That's extraordinary.
[00:54:03]  That letter and the newspapers.
[00:54:06]  That's why parents are now on his radar as potential domestic terrorists.
[00:54:11]  And I just want to point out, Megan, that this also is a change in tune.
[00:54:15]  It's a different story.
[00:54:16]  The White House has.
[00:54:17]  Previously denied, and I believe the Justice Department has previously denied that this letter from the National School Board Association was what led to Garland's memo, was what led to the FBI being activated for school board meetings.
[00:54:30]  And now you've got Garland himself up there saying, Yeah, that was it.
[00:54:33]  That's why we did it, because we were pressured into it, and we just accepted as fact everything that this letter, which is full of hysteria, as you said, calling parents domestic terrorists, that letter also asked for the Patriot Act to be used against parents.
[00:54:49]  And have them branded as domestic terrorists.
[00:54:51]  I mean, you talk, it's insane, Megan.
[00:54:53]  It's just insane.
[00:54:54]  Meanwhile, what's the federal authority for this?
[00:54:56]  As a senator and a very accomplished lawyer, you tell me what the DOJ can't run around getting involved in every crime, alleged crime.
[00:55:04]  It has to have jurisdiction.
[00:55:06]  What's the federal authority for him to be doing anything here?
[00:55:08]  Boy, that is the key question, Megan.
[00:55:10]  And the answer is there isn't federal authority.
[00:55:13]  I mean, what would the crime be?
[00:55:14]  I mean, what would the federal crime be?
[00:55:15]  I mean, most of the crimes in this country are left to the states, and reasonably so, and rightly so, because we want to have local control.
[00:55:23]  Of police departments, local control of law enforcement.
[00:55:25]  The class of federal crimes is actually very, very narrow and always has been historically.
[00:55:30]  And Garland doesn't even bother to cite potential federal crimes in his memo.
[00:55:36]  He doesn't even attempt to.
[00:55:37]  He's talking about threats.
[00:55:38]  Threats, by the way, are not unlawful.
[00:55:40]  They have to be really specific and like inciting violence right then and there for them.
[00:55:45]  Otherwise, they're just words.
[00:55:47]  And for better or for worse, we're allowed to say them.
[00:55:49]  Well, and here's the other thing, Megan.
[00:55:51]  If you look at Garland's memo that activated the FBI, what he says is they're going to go after and discourage violence.
[00:55:58]  Threats of violence and other intimidation.
[00:56:01]  I mean, you're an attorney.
[00:56:03]  That last phrase is so broad, it's so capacious.
[00:56:06]  Other forms of intimidation that clearly is meant to intimidate parents, to say, if you go to a school board meeting, And you express frustration about mask mandates or vaccine mandates or critical race theory.
[00:56:18]  Well, hey, that might get reported as intimidation.
[00:56:21]  You might have an FBI agent knocking on your door.
[00:56:23]  I mean, it is so wrong and it really is unlawful.

=== Acting Like a Strong Nation (10:16) ===

[00:56:27]  Let's shift gears because I got to ask you about China.
[00:56:31]  This was quite a story this week.
[00:56:33]  So the news emerges, and my pals over at National Review did a great podcast on this at the editors, Rich Lowry and his team.
[00:56:40]  But in August, China tested a hypersonic missile.
[00:56:44]  That apparently circled the globe one time.
[00:56:46]  It missed its target, but that's not a big deal.
[00:56:48]  That's kind of why you do the tests, I guess.
[00:56:50]  And the Financial Times says that our intel officials were, quote, shocked, shocked, because we are way behind.
[00:56:56]  We do not have this weaponry.
[00:56:57]  And while the Chinese have sort of been advanced when it comes to manufacturing some other things, weaponry was always our thing.
[00:57:05]  So the problem is with these weapons, they're very fast, they're unpredictable, and there's no ability to track them or to shoot them down.
[00:57:11]  In addition, I'm told that they could come at us from the South Pole, where we're very exposed as a nation.
[00:57:16]  We haven't fortified that.
[00:57:18]  You know, an attack from the South Pole.
[00:57:20]  So, this is not good.
[00:57:21]  This is bad news that China is at this point.
[00:57:24]  And this comes on the heels of news this week that a top cybersecurity official at the Pentagon, Nicholas Chalane, just quit saying, We've got no competing fighting chance against China when it comes to the tech war.
[00:57:33]  We've already lost it.
[00:57:34]  Our AI program is at the kindergarten level.
[00:57:36]  All right, so we're not doing well.
[00:57:38]  So, Jen Psaki gets asked about this at the White House and listen to her response.
[00:57:44]  And then, can you comment on reports that China tested a nuclear capable hypersonic missile over the summer to the surprise of U.S. officials?
[00:57:51]  And we've been consistent in our approach with China.
[00:57:55]  We welcome stiff competition, but do we not want that competition to veer into conflict?
[00:58:00]  What?
[00:58:01]  Do we welcome stiff competition when it comes to nuclear weapons that could annihilate millions of Americans?
[00:58:06]  Well, and I tell you, the way that you prevent competition from becoming conflict, Megan, is that you show the authoritarian Chinese government that we will win any conflict that they might choose to engage in.
[00:58:18]  And this is what really worries me about what we're seeing in China, what we're seeing in East Asia.
[00:58:24]  Is you see a Beijing government, a communist government that feels emboldened.
[00:58:28]  They look at the catastrophe in Afghanistan.
[00:58:30]  They look at the debacle Joe Biden led us into there, and they think, oh boy, this American government is weak.
[00:58:37]  And now you see them testing hypersonics.
[00:58:39]  Now you see them flying over Taiwan.
[00:58:42]  They've flown a record number of sorties over Taiwan.
[00:58:45]  That's very deliberate, Megan.
[00:58:46]  They're telling us that, hey, we're on the attack, we're on the offensive, and you, America, can't stop us.
[00:58:52]  We're going to be the global superpower.
[00:58:55]  There's nothing you can do to stop us.
[00:58:56]  We've got to send the message back that we're not going to be intimidated and that we are going to stand up to them and we're not just going to roll over.
[00:59:03]  But I'm afraid Joe Biden is sending just the opposite message.
[00:59:06]  Yes, because we're not, we are not sending that message in any way.
[00:59:10]  We're welcoming them to the party.
[00:59:13]  I'm stuck on my friends at National Review because I thought their podcast is kicking it off on this was so good.
[00:59:18]  Charles C.W. Cook, basically, my summary of his response was Is she insane?
[00:59:23]  But listen to him.
[00:59:24]  Why on earth would we welcome?
[00:59:28]  This competition.
[00:59:30]  It's not a market.
[00:59:32]  You might welcome competition in the smartphone arena.
[00:59:37]  You might welcome competition if you're a restaurant.
[00:59:41]  You might welcome competition if you make microchips because you want the overall industry to advance.
[00:59:50]  You might realize that it keeps you sharp, keeps you on your toes.
[00:59:56]  The competition here, though, Comes in the form of a missile designed to incinerate millions of Americans.
[01:00:03]  We shouldn't want that competition.
[01:00:04]  We should be embarrassed that it exists.
[01:00:09]  I mean, couldn't have said it better myself, but we're getting a very different message from our president and his spokesperson.
[01:00:16]  You know, what strikes me about this, Megan, is the policy of this administration towards China is really one of appeasement.
[01:00:22]  There's just no other way to put it.
[01:00:24]  You look at economically, what have we heard out of this administration over and over?
[01:00:28]  Oh, well, we want engagement with China.
[01:00:31]  We're not going to stand up to them anymore, whether they're cheating on their trade agreements, taking our jobs, stealing our technology.
[01:00:37]  We want engagement.
[01:00:38]  We need them.
[01:00:38]  I mean, literally, that's what administration officials said.
[01:00:41]  We need China.
[01:00:42]  Militarily, the same thing.
[01:00:43]  We are appeasing them.
[01:00:45]  This is an imperial policy.
[01:00:47]  Power.
[01:00:47]  The Beijing government is imperial in nature.
[01:00:50]  They want to expand.
[01:00:51]  They want to control East Asia.
[01:00:52]  From there, they want to reach out and project their power all around the world.
[01:00:56]  There's only one country on the face of the earth that can stop them from doing that.
[01:01:00]  It's the United States of America.
[01:01:02]  And we have to stop them because if we don't, they're going to impoverish our country.
[01:01:07]  They're going to take away the rest of our jobs.
[01:01:08]  They're going to take all of our domestic manufacturing capability.
[01:01:11]  And we'll ultimately have to ask them for permission to do XYZ.
[01:01:15]  That is not acceptable to us.
[01:01:17]  Joe Biden needs to wake up to those facts right quick.
[01:01:20]  We thought we were going to change them.
[01:01:22]  You know, we trade with China and we're going to influence the way they live.
[01:01:26]  And anything but has happened.
[01:01:28]  Perhaps the opposite has happened.
[01:01:29]  They've influenced us.
[01:01:30]  And you see this, you see sort of the downside of it in so many areas from the weaponry to the supply chain.
[01:01:38]  And I know you've been jumping up and down about this, but one of the things all those ships lined up to get in and the delay in the cargo shipments has had a lot of regular folks asking is why are we so dependent on China?
[01:01:52]  Why are all the goods out on those ships?
[01:01:55]  What about American made?
[01:01:57]  You're actually asking some of those same questions.
[01:01:59]  Yeah, and I think it's time that we started acting like the strong country we are.
[01:02:03]  I mean, Joe Biden is acting like we're so weak.
[01:02:05]  We've got to ask China for permission.
[01:02:07]  We've got to ask, we've got to beg OPEC for oil and for energy for this country.
[01:02:11]  I mean, let's get real.
[01:02:12]  Here's what I would do, Megan.
[01:02:14]  Here's what I propose to do.
[01:02:15]  I think we ought to say that any critical good or critical supply chain, you've got to make the majority of it in this country.
[01:02:21]  So, if we identify a good that's critical to us, whether that's medical supplies, whether that's vaccines, maybe it's computer chips, steel, you've got to make over half of it in this country in order to sell it in this country.
[01:02:33]  No matter where you're based.
[01:02:35]  No matter where you're based.
[01:02:36]  Yes, ma'am.
[01:02:36]  No matter where you're based.
[01:02:37]  So, these overseas companies, multinationals, you want to have access to our market, then you've got to make most of it in the United States if it's a critical good to us.
[01:02:46]  That would bring jobs back to our country.
[01:02:48]  It would enhance our national security.
[01:02:50]  And it would send the message to countries like China.
[01:02:52]  We're not going to lay down for you.
[01:02:53]  We're not going to let you walk all over us.
[01:02:55]  We're going to look to our own strength, secure our own jobs.
[01:02:59]  And in a crisis like COVID, we're not going to be dependent on foreign nations and foreign enemies anymore.
[01:03:05]  It's crazy now.
[01:03:06]  I mentioned at the top of the show, but now there's apparently a meeting at the White House talking about whether we should get the National Guard involved in this crisis too.
[01:03:13]  Have them go out and unload the ships or try to drive the trucks.
[01:03:16]  Meanwhile, there's a shortage of trucks.
[01:03:17]  So that's probably why they wound up rejecting it.
[01:03:19]  But the National Guard can only do so much.
[01:03:22]  Already the New York governor said she's going to use them to cover for the healthcare workers who are getting fired because they won't get the VACs.
[01:03:27]  We heard that same thing possibly in Massachusetts and the corrections department.
[01:03:31]  Now they want them to go out and cover for the truckers.
[01:03:33]  I mean, good gracious, the poor National Guardsmen, I hope all of them are vaccinated because they've got a lot they want them to do.
[01:03:39]  Yeah, and the border, the same is true at the border, Megan.
[01:03:42]  We're already asking the Guard to deploy down to the border, which is total chaos.
[01:03:45]  I mean, it's in total shambles, it's a total crisis, humanitarian, national security, all the way around.
[01:03:51]  Here's what I feel like.
[01:03:52]  And when I talk to people at home, what people feel like the country is in chaos.
[01:03:57]  I mean, they just look at gas prices, people can't afford to buy gas.
[01:04:00]  People can't afford to buy food.
[01:04:02]  People can't afford to get their car repaired.
[01:04:04]  And you see rising violence everywhere.
[01:04:07]  You see crisis at the border.
[01:04:08]  You see people losing their jobs over the vaccine.
[01:04:10]  I mean, it's just total chaos.
[01:04:13]  I mean, I just about said Jimmy Carter.
[01:04:15]  Joe Biden liked Jimmy Carter.
[01:04:17]  It's a Freudian slip.
[01:04:18]  He lurches from one crisis to another.
[01:04:20]  And I tell you what, I mean, I just think that the American people aren't going to put up with this ultimately.
[01:04:25]  And my part is in Congress and Senate is to try and say, I'm not going to go along with this.
[01:04:30]  There are better ways to do this.
[01:04:32]  This is a strong country.
[01:04:33]  Let's start acting like it.
[01:04:34]  Yeah.
[01:04:35]  And just to deliver to the audience what I said I would, the latest on the border headlines border arrests, the numbers are in, have soared to an all time high.
[01:04:46]  New data from the Border Patrol shows.
[01:04:48]  The 2021 fiscal year, which ended in September, we detained over 1.7 million migrants along the Mexican border.
[01:04:55]  That's just the ones we detained.
[01:04:58]  And that's the highest levels ever recorded.
[01:05:01]  Our 2021 figure was more than three times the amount of arrests that we had between 2012 and 2020.
[01:05:08]  They are coming.
[01:05:09]  They are coming in big numbers.
[01:05:10]  There was a report this week they are being dropped off by the hundreds, perhaps thousands, at Westchester Airport, not far from where I am, overnight between midnight and 6 a.m.
[01:05:20]  The administration said, Oh, it's just families.
[01:05:22]  Those eyewitnesses on the ground said, No, there's a lot of young men in their 20s.
[01:05:26]  We don't know where they're going.
[01:05:28]  There's not going to be any requirement.
[01:05:29]  They show up at an asylum seeking hearing and so on.
[01:05:32]  And it seems like a free for all at our southern border.
[01:05:35]  I'll give you the last thought on that.
[01:05:37]  It is a total free for all, Megan.
[01:05:38]  And it's dangerous for many, many reasons, not the least of which are the drugs that are flowing over that border.
[01:05:43]  Every state in this country is a border state because of the drugs that are flowing into our schools.
[01:05:49]  They're flowing into our neighborhoods, into our churches, even.
[01:05:52]  Where are they coming from?
[01:05:53]  They're coming across the southern border.
[01:05:54]  Just the drug route.
[01:05:55]  That's how the cartels work.
[01:05:57]  And Joe Biden is just enabling them with his policies.
[01:06:00]  Can I just say one last thing, Megan?
[01:06:02]  And that is to end on a note of hope, if I could.
[01:06:04]  And that is, here's what I think.
[01:06:06]  In the midst of all of this chaos, in the midst of all of this disastrous series of policies from this president, the American worker and the American family are strong.
[01:06:16]  And this is why I just can't take all of this behavior of weakness, whether it's on supply chains or at the border.
[01:06:21]  Joe Biden needs to quit acting like we're a weak nation.
[01:06:24]  We are not a weak nation.
[01:06:25]  Our workers are strong.
[01:06:27]  Give them the chance to succeed.
[01:06:29]  Give our families the chance to succeed.
[01:06:31]  Quit forcing on them these terrible policies.
[01:06:35]  So I just think we're a strong country.
[01:06:36]  We need to start acting like a strong country.
[01:06:38]  If we do that, not only will we be better off, the world will be better off.
[01:06:42]  Great to see you, Senator.
[01:06:43]  Thanks for being here.

=== Weakness Undermines Democracy (13:15) ===

[01:06:44]  Coming up, the author of a new book on the woke media.
[01:06:47]  Have you seen the latest numbers on trust in media?
[01:06:50]  They just dropped a new poll, and it's disgusting.
[01:06:54]  You're not going to be surprised.
[01:07:01]  Bhatia Angar Sargon joins me now, and she's the deputy opinion editor at Newsweek, as well as the author of a brand new book called Bad News How Woke Media Is Undermining Democracy.
[01:07:14]  Bhatia, great to have you here.
[01:07:16]  So, bad news is perfect.
[01:07:18]  That's exactly right.
[01:07:20]  And I think, you know, you're interesting because I've had a bunch of people on the show lately who say they would generally call themselves a lefty, a Democrat.
[01:07:27]  They were up until recently, and then the ground started shifting beneath.
[01:07:31]  Them and either they have been red pilled or they just don't know what they are now.
[01:07:35]  I know you say you put yourself in that same sort of category.
[01:07:39]  But let's talk about get to the polls in a minute.
[01:07:41]  But you're sort of a headline of your book is Something is Wrong with American Journalism.
[01:07:47]  We know that instinctively, but put some meat on those bones.
[01:07:50]  Well, first of all, Megan, thank you so much for having me.
[01:07:53]  I have to tell you, I've admired you for so long.
[01:07:56]  You will always be the person who put Vladimir Putin in his place while he was trying to intimidate you and bully you.
[01:08:03]  And you just Gave back better than you got.
[01:08:05]  And I just want to tell you that when I told my liberal friends that I was coming on your show, that is what they brought up to me.
[01:08:11]  They were like, didn't she interview Putin?
[01:08:13]  So that's who you are in my heart.
[01:08:15]  And that's who you are for a lot of people as well.
[01:08:17]  So I just, I always promised myself I would tell you that if I ever got the chance.
[01:08:23]  In so many ways, I think your career really has been a harbinger of what was to come.
[01:08:29]  So, my book is called Bad News, and it's really about how we're sort of in a moral panic about race that's being perpetuated by the mainstream liberal national media.
[01:08:40]  And what I argue is that, you know, this looks like it's about race, it looks like it's about politics, but at the end of the day, it's actually really about class.
[01:08:52]  Telling that we're using race in order to not tell.
[01:08:56]  And what I argue in my book is that over the course of the 20th century, journalists underwent a status revolution.
[01:09:02]  You know, journalism used to be a blue collar trade.
[01:09:05]  You would have journalists living side by side next to cops and electricians, and they just didn't make that much more money than them.
[01:09:11]  And a lot of them hadn't gone to college.
[01:09:13]  And that's really not true anymore.
[01:09:15]  Today, journalists, like a lot of the American intelligentsia on the left, has really migrated to the elites, to the top 10%.
[01:09:24]  And I argue in my Book that the sort of wokeness that's taken over in the media is sort of the last stage of this status revolution, where the left is really much more comfortable talking about issues of identity than they are talking about economics.
[01:09:39]  And what we've seen is really an abandonment of the working class by these people on the liberal and on the left in the intelligentsia, which includes the media, includes a lot of the entertainment that we consume, the university, of course.
[01:09:54]  And I'm sure that you yourself have opinions about this, Megan, that I'm dying to hear.
[01:09:58]  Because you're so much in this and you are so much sort of a victim of this in a way.
[01:10:04]  I definitely feel like I've lived a lot of what's in there.
[01:10:06]  And what I hate about the media is reflected in this book so much too, which is they've chosen to make every news story about themselves.
[01:10:13]  I had a caller just yesterday saying, How can you be nice to Trump or say anything nice about Trump after him coming after you for all those months?
[01:10:20]  And my response was essentially, I don't make it about myself.
[01:10:24]  Whatever irritation I might have about any individual politician, that's irrelevant.
[01:10:29]  I have to report the news.
[01:10:30]  Based on what the truth is and what the viewers want to hear about, not my own personal peccadilloes.
[01:10:38]  So, you start the book, you open the book with a scene involving CNN, Don Lemon, who is just the worst perpetrator of this.
[01:10:47]  And I mean, Tide, maybe Tide is the guest I most loathe on cable news, I must say, Kirsten Powers, who is the most hateful person on television.
[01:10:58]  Truly, I think she might be.
[01:11:00]  And I'll show you why I think that in the clip that you reference at the beginning of your new book.
[01:11:05]  Bad news.
[01:11:05]  Watch, we pulled it.
[01:11:06]  There's been a lot of talk about why white women support President Trump despite of, or perhaps because of, his policies and his tone.
[01:11:13]  What's your take on this?
[01:11:15]  Well, I think there's a lot of different ways that we have to look at this.
[01:11:18]  I think one of the first things is that people will say that they support him for reasons other than his racist language.
[01:11:27]  And they'll say, well, I'm not racist.
[01:11:29]  I just voted for him because, you know, I didn't like Hillary Clinton.
[01:11:33]  It doesn't make you not racist.
[01:11:35]  It actually makes you racist.
[01:11:37]  That was the theme of the whole segment that you are a racist if you voted for Trump, and white women are power adjacent, and so they're all racist too, supporting a racist patriarchal system.
[01:11:47]  This is how not just CNN, but sort of the woke media sees America.
[01:11:51]  Yeah.
[01:11:52]  And the reason I opened the book with that scene is because Don Lemon and Kristen Powers both make over a million dollars a year.
[01:11:57]  And the idea that the two of them would be sitting there with all of their millions in the bank, calling the voters for president who won the vast majority of people without a college education racist, right?
[01:12:08]  To me, that was just, it was like, Oh my God, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
[01:12:11]  The use of a moral panic about race to hide the really, really terrible, terrible income inequality in this nation and the abandonment of the working class by both sides, honestly.
[01:12:22]  You know, it's true that Fox News doesn't insult the values of the working class, right?
[01:12:27]  But they really have not been great at uplifting them from an economic point of view.
[01:12:32]  And by that, I don't mean welfare, Megan.
[01:12:34]  I mean things like good jobs that give people a sense of dignity, a sense that they are building up this nation that you really just can't get through trickle down economics.
[01:12:43]  But so, something I wanted to ask you about this, as somebody who worked at Fox, so my thesis is that the real difference between CNN and Fox is really about class.
[01:12:52]  It's not even about Politics as much or about polarization.
[01:12:56]  It's about the fact that the Fox News audience that's pictured by the Fox News host, like you are, or the Fox News as a channel, is a working class person, as opposed to at the liberal outlets where they are picturing an increasingly elite educated audience.
[01:13:12]  Is that true?
[01:13:13]  Am I right about that?
[01:13:14]  Well, it depends on the anchor, I think.
[01:13:16]  But yes, as a whole, I think you've got it right.
[01:13:18]  And I know you wrote about this in your book, and I experienced this firsthand, but it was by design by Roger Ailes.
[01:13:25]  He did not want.
[01:13:26]  The guys from Harvard or the gals from Princeton.
[01:13:29]  He wanted people like me.
[01:13:30]  I went to Syracuse, like O'Reilly, who claims he went to Harvard, but he really didn't.
[01:13:34]  He went to the Harvard Kennedy School, which doesn't count.
[01:13:36]  He went to Marist.
[01:13:37]  Like Hannity, who didn't go to college at all.
[01:13:40]  And I think we did, maybe he may have dropped out of high school.
[01:13:43]  I don't want to, but he definitely never went to college and so on.
[01:13:46]  That's what he wanted because he wanted people who could relate to regular folks and wouldn't be looking down their noses at them.
[01:13:55]  Yeah.
[01:13:56]  Yeah, I think that's exactly the point.
[01:13:58]  And if you look at, so I argue that this sort of woke revolution that took place over the last, you know, five, 10 years, you can really see it in CNN's numbers.
[01:14:07]  So, you know, in 2012, only 25% of CNN's viewership had a college degree, which is on a par with Fox.
[01:14:14]  Now it's about 50%, right?
[01:14:16]  So something that they were doing was signaling to working class viewers, to liberal working class viewers, you know, this is no longer a channel for you.
[01:14:25]  We're not for you.
[01:14:26]  And I would say the rise of Tucker.
[01:14:28]  Is directly related to all this too.
[01:14:29]  I mean, that's when I left Fox News, Lachlan Murdoch asked me, Who do you think I should move up into the primetime?
[01:14:35]  And I said, Tucker Carlson.
[01:14:36]  And Tucker had been on Fox and Friends weekend.
[01:14:38]  You know, it wasn't, I mean, not to toot my own horn, but like it wasn't really obvious.
[01:14:42]  Now he's a huge star, but I could see, I could see that he got Trump and he got our audience in a way not everybody did.
[01:14:50]  And this was the wave of the future, not the Mitt Romney, you know, sort of white bread Republicans, but the working class who'd been forgotten by Obama, entirely forgotten by Obama.
[01:15:01]  And to a large extent, by some of the talent on Fox.
[01:15:04]  And I do think it's no accident Tucker's become such a superstar.
[01:15:08]  So, but let me ask you this I think that the Republicans, by and large, took the wrong lesson from Trump.
[01:15:17]  Somebody who got the right lesson is Josh Hawley, for example, your previous guest, who really is leaning into the economic populism.
[01:15:24]  But to me, it seems like the lesson of Trump was these people have been forgotten.
[01:15:29]  They're downwardly mobile.
[01:15:31]  3,000 opioid overdoses, right?
[01:15:34]  Last year alone.
[01:15:35]  We have these deaths of despair.
[01:15:36]  People are despairing.
[01:15:37]  Those are the people who turned out for Trump, right?
[01:15:40]  Those are the people who really showed up for him.
[01:15:43]  And I feel like that there's just, you don't really see a lot of Republicans saying, you know what?
[01:15:48]  We're going to pick up that economic populism piece.
[01:15:51]  They're sort of reverting to the free market stuff and then keeping the kind of Trumpian aesthetics, which was like the worst part about it.
[01:15:58]  I don't know.
[01:15:59]  What do you think, Megan?
[01:16:00]  That's an interesting point.
[01:16:01]  I don't think you're wrong because I do think to some extent, You know, the other half of the Fox News audience is the more Mitt Romney type Chamber of Commerce Republicans.
[01:16:10]  And so, you know, that was one of the challenges that Roger was facing during the 2016 election, during the lead up to it, right?
[01:16:17]  Like he needed to keep his working class base, but not lose the Mitt Romney types.
[01:16:22]  Who were appalled by Trump's behavior, which let's face it was shocking to anybody seeing him on the national stage running for president.
[01:16:29]  You know, we'd never seen anything like that before.
[01:16:31]  But when you look at the policies, he was addressing the very thing that the Obama White House told me privately.
[01:16:37]  We were about to do a town hall.
[01:16:38]  I was talking to them, not about to, that's too strong.
[01:16:41]  But I was talking to them about trying to get a town hall together with Barack Obama when he was president, one of his final acts as president, to address working class issues, to reach out to this disaffected middle.
[01:16:52]  And we never got to do it.
[01:16:54]  I do think that sort of Fox saw that audience, but they weren't going to nurture it at the expense of the other half of the audience.
[01:17:01]  Right.
[01:17:02]  And that other half of the audience is still baked into the DNA.
[01:17:06]  Right.
[01:17:06]  And what they can do, they can sort of shortcut their way into uniting that kind of despairing bottom working class, you know, downwardly mobile middle class with the very rich Republican side by just catering to the culture war issues, right?
[01:17:20]  To the issues that are sort of like the red meat, right?
[01:17:23]  Which always target, they always target.
[01:17:25]  A Republican, a conservative, a working class person.
[01:17:27]  I don't know.
[01:17:28]  I feel like Fox, it's always going to have a future because it has basically a monopoly on anything that's not leftist news, at least on television.
[01:17:36]  Now we have, thankfully, many products in the digital world.
[01:17:39]  But I do wonder whether it's sustainable long term because I think there are people like you who might call yourself a lefty at one point for whom Fox is too far, right?
[01:17:50]  Like my friends in New York who are liberals who are no longer liberals because of the COVID madness or the CRT or whatever, they wouldn't watch Fox.
[01:17:58]  That's That's a bridge too far.
[01:17:59]  But they do want more fair and balanced news, and they can't stomach something like the CNN segment we just watched.
[01:18:06]  But I would argue, and I'm very curious what you think about this.
[01:18:09]  Like, I watch Fox a lot, and it's because I think that the reason that liberals, disaffected liberals, won't watch it is really about class.
[01:18:17]  It's about education.
[01:18:18]  It's because they have, you know, like, you know, they have a graduate degree, right?
[01:18:21]  And so they want to go to the places that are catering to them at that level.
[01:18:25]  And I feel that Fox is really one of the only outlets that is picturing a working class audience when they're sort of addressing.
[01:18:32]  Addressing the audience?
[01:18:34]  I think a lot of it comes down to just sort of your approach to delivering the news, right?
[01:18:38]  I mean, what a difference.
[01:18:40]  I've worked at ABC, I've worked at NBC, I've worked at Fox.
[01:18:42]  And I will say, you know, you look at the scripts at the broadcast networks and all the multisyllabic words, and everyone's trying to prove how smart they are and their academic pedigree.
[01:18:51]  Whereas at Fox, I mean, the motto on my show was always write tight, write tight, get it simpler, even simpler than that.
[01:18:57]  And Joel Cheatwood, this guy who was brought in by Rogers, brilliant TV guy, sat us down back when I was in America's Newsroom with Hemmer and went over our segments, you know.
[01:19:07]  Minute by minute, and kept saying, What is that?
[01:19:10]  Explain that.
[01:19:11]  Don't assume familiarity by the audience.
[01:19:14]  And he's the one who taught me if the audience is not familiar, they will be so grateful to you for the line or two of explanation.
[01:19:20]  And if the audience is familiar with the story, they will forgive you that 15 seconds.
[01:19:25]  Whereas on CNN, it's you, you will know because you are smart and you've been watching me every night.
[01:19:33]  And therefore, I can jump right into, you know, some whatever discussion.
[01:19:37]  And it's just a turnoff, you can feel it.
[01:19:40]  Absolutely.
[01:19:41]  Absolutely.
[01:19:42]  And so that's really what I argue in the book I go through the history of American journalism and show how we had this 19th century populist journalism pioneered by people like Joseph Pulitzer, that was really by and for the working class.
[01:19:55]  It was a crusade on their behalf, but he also gossiped about them.
[01:19:58]  He covered crime.

=== Journalism as a Rich Person's Job (04:21) ===

[01:19:59]  He was in those communities talking to them, asking them for two pennies when maybe they only had four pennies.
[01:20:05]  And we really sort of lost that as journalists have sort of become upwardly mobile, as the industry has constricted.
[01:20:12]  The journalists who made it are now part of the American elites.
[01:20:16]  And the sort of business pressures of digital media have really increased that because what you used to have was.
[01:20:22]  That's what I want to ask you about.
[01:20:23]  Because I understand when you look at the hosts on CNN or MSNBC, I mean, Rachel Maddow was reportedly negotiating a deal for $30 million a year for her next deal.
[01:20:31]  $30.
[01:20:32]  Okay.
[01:20:32]  So this person is not in touch with the working class.
[01:20:35]  And Lemon 2, millions and millions and millions.
[01:20:38]  And I see that.
[01:20:38]  Okay.
[01:20:39]  That's fine.
[01:20:40]  It can happen.
[01:20:41]  You can make a lot of money and still be in touch with those roots.
[01:20:43]  And I would say, in my own case, you know, my mom is still.
[01:20:47]  Middle class.
[01:20:48]  You know, she's living in a two bedroom house in Albany, and I've offered to help her with all that.
[01:20:52]  It's just not the way she is, and it's not the way I was raised.
[01:20:54]  And if you still have people around you who are in that circumstance, you stay in touch with it and you still love people who are in the midst of it and you understand it.
[01:21:03]  You surround yourself with all millionaires and sort of elite academic pedigrees.
[01:21:07]  You're going to respect only that.
[01:21:10]  But I look at print journalism and digital journalism, and they're not like that.
[01:21:16]  These guys are making 25,000 bucks a year in some circumstances.
[01:21:20]  If they're lucky, print journalists in Cincinnati, 60 grand a year.
[01:21:23]  So, what happened to them?
[01:21:26]  So, the vast majority of journalists today live in not just blue states, but the most blue states and the most blue districts in the most blue states.
[01:21:35]  That's what a study by Politico found in 2017.
[01:21:39]  It wasn't just that the vast majority of journalists live in Clinton districts, they live in the most Clinton districts.
[01:21:46]  The journalism from the middle of the country, the local Local newspapers, those have by and large collapsed because of digital journalism.
[01:21:54]  And what happened was you had the sort of great sorting where all of the journalists moved to the coast.
[01:21:59]  That's where all the jobs are.
[01:22:00]  And like you said, some of these jobs, they don't pay a lot.
[01:22:03]  So you have to ask yourself, what kind of a person can afford to take a job in New York City that pays $25,000, right?
[01:22:09]  It's not a working class person.
[01:22:10]  It's not a middle class person.
[01:22:11]  Someone with family, though.
[01:22:12]  Exactly.
[01:22:13]  It's really become a sort of rich person's job at this point.
[01:22:17]  You have to make the connections in this incredibly selective, very, very elite.
[01:22:22]  Industry, you have to network, which means you have to go get one of these journalism degrees, which you can't really teach journalism.
[01:22:28]  You know this, Megan, right?
[01:22:29]  You can't teach someone to be good at listening, to ask the right questions, right?
[01:22:33]  To question their own biases.
[01:22:34]  But they go and they spend $70,000 on a journalism master's degree, right?
[01:22:39]  Who can afford that, right?
[01:22:41]  So the funnel has become extremely, extremely small.
[01:22:43]  And by the way, that's also why our newsrooms are so white, which is a real problem.
[01:22:48]  They are still very white.
[01:22:49]  There is a real problem with diversity in America's newsrooms because You have to essentially be rich in order to make it.
[01:22:55]  Of course, there are like, you know, counter examples, you know, this working class one who made it, that one.
[01:22:59]  But by and large, the way to become a journalist today is to be born into a rich family.
[01:23:04]  Unless you're applying at Fox, in which case, you know, well, I mean, this is what Roger used to say, but he used to say, and this is from your book, I'm just quoting it, but I heard him say it too, that his best qualification for his job was that he didn't go to Columbia Journalism School.
[01:23:16]  And then he used to say that too.
[01:23:18]  You know, he didn't like that stuff.
[01:23:20]  And he knew, I used to liken him to Willy Wonka at the end of the movie.
[01:23:24]  Where it was like, how could I entrust all of this to a grown up?
[01:23:26]  They'd already have all their own ideas.
[01:23:28]  You know, he wanted the little Charlie Buckets who he could help mold into a more fair and balanced journalist, not Republican, but just more fair and balanced.
[01:23:36]  And it worked.
[01:23:37]  It worked with lots and lots of journalists over there.
[01:23:39]  Okay, let me ask you about this Gallup poll.
[01:23:41]  It just came out, and it says trust in the media has fallen to its second lowest ever.
[01:23:48]  They say only 7% of adults say they have a great deal of trust in the media, 29% say it's a fair amount, but only.
[01:23:56]  36% overall are sort of saying, yeah, okay, I have either a great deal or a fair amount.
[01:24:02]  On the other hand, only 11% of Republicans say they have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the media, 31% of independents, so the vast, vast majority, and 68% of Democrats do.
[01:24:14]  So, you got Democrats overwhelmingly trusting the media, 11% of Republicans, 31% of independents saying, hell no.

=== Addiction to Constant News (02:37) ===

[01:24:21]  And we know why.
[01:24:21]  It's for some of the reasons we've just been discussing.
[01:24:24]  So, what do you say?
[01:24:25]  I get asked this all the time.
[01:24:26]  What does that mean for the future of journalism?
[01:24:29]  It's such a great question.
[01:24:32]  I have a sort of very unsatisfying answer for that, which is I think one of the problems with our society today, what really ails us, is this addiction to knowledge, like this addiction to knowing everything all the time, to being All up on the news.
[01:24:48]  I feel like a lot of people have replaced spirituality with like knowing things, right?
[01:24:53]  With, you know, this sort of class divide around whether you have a college degree or not, I think is really, really dangerous.
[01:24:59]  But one of the things it's done is it's turned like knowledge and information into this sort of like premium thing.
[01:25:05]  I just don't understand why people need to know everything so much.
[01:25:08]  So I'll give you an example like all of the negotiations with the Democrats over these, you know, bills now, right?
[01:25:13]  The big bipartisan infrastructure bill and then the Build Back Better plan, right?
[01:25:17]  They're negotiating over those bills, right?
[01:25:19]  At some point, those bills are going to get passed in some form or another.
[01:25:22]  But why does every American have to know every second?
[01:25:25]  Like, you know, who is the bad guy today?
[01:25:27]  Is it Mansion or Cinema?
[01:25:29]  Who's the good guy?
[01:25:30]  Like Sanders or this one?
[01:25:31]  It's like, why do we need to know everything?
[01:25:33]  I really feel like that is kind of part of the problem in a way, which is a weird thing for a journalist to say.
[01:25:38]  No, I get it.
[01:25:40]  I do.
[01:25:41]  Honestly, it's like one of the pleasures of doing this show is we can do, you know, we did Ryan Holiday on Stoicism the other day.
[01:25:47]  You can do, you don't have to be immersed in the, The reconciliation bill day to day, like we did when I was in cable.
[01:25:54]  And I do think, like Matt Taibbi, now as of Substack, you know, Rolling Stone is what made him famous.
[01:26:00]  He has said he only consumes information about the subjects he intends to write about.
[01:26:04]  And that's one of his defense mechanisms against this fire hose of largely needless information.
[01:26:11]  Batya, I'm so excited for your book.
[01:26:14]  I know we talked about you on Bridget Fettisi's podcast, and she's a big fan too.
[01:26:19]  But I hope people buy it because you should read about it.
[01:26:21]  It's a good forensic diagnosis of.
[01:26:23]  How we got here and where this is going.
[01:26:26]  And I love the title too Bad News How Woke Media is Undermining Democracy.
[01:26:31]  Good luck for that.
[01:26:33]  Thank you so much.
[01:26:34]  A lot to love.
[01:26:35]  Don't miss our show tomorrow.
[01:26:36]  We're going to have some fun with the CEO of the Babylon Bee, along with my pal, Melissa Francis.
[01:26:41]  Download the Megyn Kelly Show.
[01:26:42]  See you tomorrow.
[01:26:44]  Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.
[01:26:46]  No BS, no agenda, and no fear.
[01:26:58]  Thank you.