Catholic vs. Protestant: "Did We See A Miracle?" YES or NO With Ruslan KD
Can Catholics and Protestants agree on on anything? In this episode of YES or NO, Michael Knowles is joined by Christian YouTuber and apologist Ruslan KD for a spirited faith debate. From biblical miracles to modern-day testimonies, they test each other’s beliefs on divine intervention, theology, and what it truly means to witness the supernatural. Expect laughs, challenges, and maybe even a few revelations.
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Are Ortho bros more difficult to debate than Catholics?
Oh man.
You can't pin them down on anything.
Well, they would say that you guys are the ones that schismatic.
They say all sorts of stuff in Greek.
even speaks that you know Welcome to yes or no.
Okay, you don't have to applaud.
The bibulus!
Oh, hey, all right.
That's good.
Let's go.
Yes or no is the bibulous battle to discover who knows whom better.
My guest today, obviously there's a lot of excitement.
All these people packed into the audience because they wanted to meet him.
Ruslan KD.
How do we play?
I will ask Ruslan a yes or no question.
He will select his answer away from my prying eyes.
Then I will guess how he answered.
If I guess correctly, I get a point.
If I guess incorrectly, I lose a point.
No matter what, I will probably end up drinking.
Then it's Ruslan's turn.
Neither of us has seen the questions beforehand.
Whoever has the most points at the end wins, the stakes could be higher.
Ruslan, thank you for coming on to the show.
Thank you for having me, Michael.
Now I want you to know something.
I have not had lunch yet.
Okay.
I all I was plied with nicotine by my producer, and I have this uh martini in front of me.
Okay.
So if you lose, are we gonna get a bunch of excuses?
I didn't get enough time.
I'm already setting that up now.
That's what I think that's the setup.
But I want there to be a wager, okay?
All right.
So I'm a gambling man.
I see.
I say if I win, you have to come back and do one of my panels.
Okay.
And when you're in town, if the stars align, we'll make the stars align.
Latin mass.
Okay.
That's fair.
All right.
That's fair.
What's your wager?
That's fair.
My wager is if I win, you get to come to my Bless God Summit in San Diego, California, March 5th, 6th, and 7th, and be on a panel regarding Catholic Protestant affairs.
So if if you win, I get a speaking gig.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, all right.
Unpaid speaking gig.
Hold on, I think we can't afford your feet.
It's fair enough.
I thought Armenians were better at driving hard negotiations and bargains.
Okay.
That's good.
I'm in.
I'm in.
All right, here we go.
All right, here we go.
Do you know the rules?
I think so.
Okay, that makes one of us.
Yes.
Uh, since you're a man, I will go first.
If you were a lady, I'd say you go first.
Okay.
Okay, ready?
All right.
Is the first step for Protestant churches to match the rise in traditional Catholic attendance to reform to reform the laser light show concerts in their worship services.
Okay, I actually have I have thoughts on this question, but I'll save them before I have to guess your answer.
So you put your answer down and then I have to guess what you would say.
Who wrote this question?
This uh actually uh an evangelical Protestant wrote this question.
Okay.
Who I think has gone to a few laser light shows in his life.
It's an it's to reform the laser light show concerts in their worship.
Gosh, this is a good one.
This is a good one.
Oh man.
All right.
you would say No.
Correct.
I would question the premise Now the the Catholicism and specifically traditional versions of Catholicism, uh they are spiking right now.
But I don't I don't think Protestantism is suffering, Bream.
I don't think Protestantism in the evangelical way is declining exactly.
And in some ways I think it's actually since uh Charlie's murder, I think it's uh gone up along with all Christian traditions.
But no, you would say it's not the liturgy that's leading to the decline where it exists.
So what's driving it?
Well, I actually think the entire question is is interesting to say the least, because according to our mutual friend Trent Horn.
Yes, Protestants aren't losing attendance.
Yeah.
According to him, it's the Catholics that are losing attendance with the data that he reacted to.
Because we're get we're getting adult conversions a lot, but because you know, there's infant baptism.
A lot of people, you know, they go, they have a lunch afterward, but no one's ever really practicing the faith all that much.
So for every one adult convert, you're getting like eight cradle Catholics who are leaving.
That's exactly what he pointed out.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
How does that make you feel?
That uh it well, it means that we've got to be tougher on these parents.
And these gods, I'm a godfather because I'm Sicilian, but also because I have have this role in, you know, different kids' lives.
Uh-huh.
We gotta get tougher.
I think that certain Protestant traditions are losing people.
Like the uh, I don't know.
Does anyone go to Methodist churches anymore?
Methodists had a big schism recently over there.
The LGBTQ thing.
I went, I was at the National Prayer Service at the inauguration.
That bishoprice lady who first of all, that alone is a problem.
But then she basically took the opportunity to scold Trump on immigration or whatever.
That was awful.
I think the mainline churches on the Protestant side have emptied out.
But I I don't think it's just because of liturgy.
The Episcopalians have better liturgy than any of the other Protestants.
It's because of the teaching.
The teaching has just been watered down, so they have rainbow flags outside their buildings.
Spot on.
That's the issue, right?
Yeah, we we've had record-breaking attendance uh back to back to back to back to back for the for the past year, but the past several weeks.
Yeah.
We've every every single week there's more and more people.
And we don't have laser light shows at my church.
We actually meet in an old Episcopalian building, but we would probably be like a modern evangelical type church.
Yeah, yeah.
Because that building can go one of two ways.
Uh assuming we're not getting it back from Henry VIII, uh, you know, in the UK.
It's gonna go one of two ways.
It's either gonna be low church Protestant, you know, non-denom evangelical stuff, or it's gonna become a mosque.
Yeah.
Those are kind of the two choices.
Or they're gonna tear down and build condos.
Yeah, condos are a coffee shop, yes.
Or a coffee shop.
Okay, you're right.
All right.
I'm gonna clear my my response.
Okay.
With the rise of Alex O'Connor and others like him, is a new atheist movement forming.
New new atheist, I guess.
The new new.
The neo-new.
The neo, the neo-new atheist.
Uh man.
What would I say?
Hmm.
I think you would say no.
Correct.
Yes.
You know what's forming is Alex O'Connor's gonna become Christian.
Right.
I don't know about that.
You don't think so?
You think he's hardcore about it?
I think that Alex is a gentleman that's built an amazing platform and built almost a cult of personality on being a non-combative non-believer.
But when you get deeper with him on, like, like, hey Alex, have you read the entire Bible?
Yeah, yeah.
Hey, Alex, have you gone to church recently?
Hey, Alex, like, have you wrestled through these things?
He in my opinion, they're unfortunately very shallow answers to those questions.
I totally agree.
And I really like Alex O'Connor.
I've, in fact, I don't know if I'm telling tales at a school.
I've dined with him with, you know, priests.
He's very charismatic and sweet guy.
I but that to me is a good sign.
Because the fact that he's very sharp, he's all these great things.
We're flattering him to no end.
But the fact that he doesn't have hardcore answers to all of those questions, to me says the moment he's obviously curious.
He probably hangs out with more Christians than he hangs out with atheists.
The moment that he really starts to keep following that, he's gonna become Christian.
There's no new atheism.
The atheism, the new atheism is old and it's dead.
Yeah, yeah.
It's not going anywhere.
It made so many promises to our society that the more secular we become, and we'll have this scientific revolution, and everybody will be more rational.
Yeah.
And then you fast forward that out 25 years and they've delivered on none of those problems.
Even the book, Hitchens wrote that book, God Is Not Great, which doesn't even make that argument.
It doesn't even that's not even the point of the book.
The point is, you know, I don't Christians have done things that I don't like.
But we're fast forward now 20 years after new atheism.
Richard Dawkins is calling himself a cultural Christian.
And getting canceled.
And getting canceled for basic biology.
Because he saw, he saw the conclusion of the new atheism, which is Islam.
Yeah.
In his country, in the UK, right?
So yeah, that's done.
And I I kind of hold out hope for Mr. O'Connor.
Alex, if you're watching this, you can come.
When when I win and Ruslan comes to Latin Master, you're welcome.
There's a seat for you.
Yep.
There actually isn't a seat.
We'll make a seat for you.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
So now you're picking one.
Clear the answers.
Are Ortho bros more difficult to debate than Catholics?
Oh man.
Oh gosh.
That is that is a good question.
I could see that cutting both ways, even the meaning of the question.
More difficult?
Yeah.
More.
Okay.
Alright, Arthur Rose, more difficult.
Can I ask for a clarifying question?
Yes, I've already given my answer to what you're going to say.
Yeah, so how would you define difficult?
Like are they more difficult and unpleasant?
Not that they're on well, that too.
I would say you leave the debate with the orthobro.
Uh-huh.
And you say that was a more tedious experience than the debate with the Catholic.
Whether or not you won, you lost, you feel you persuaded or other.
Okay.
You just, I'm saying you leave the debate.
Uh-huh.
Exhausted.
You say that was difficult.
That was difficult.
Of course.
Yeah.
Of course.
Why?
Okay.
This is where it gets good.
So what I love about Catholics is that, and I don't know if this is official language or not official language, but you guys acknowledge doctrinal development.
Yes.
You can say hey.
St. John Henry Newman was a great, great articulator.
You guys would say, hey, the church is the magistrate, and so on and so forth.
And so stuff has developed over time.
Which I think is beyond reasonable to say.
Yes.
What the apostles believed in practice is not necessarily what churches believe today on both sides, Catholics, Protestant, Orthodox.
Or the the real, now the fear of development of doctrine, which is articulated very well by John Henry Newman, who was who was Anglican actually, and then he became Catholic, who was very anti-Catholic, he becomes Catholic, becomes a saint, becomes a doctor of the church three weeks ago.
He would say that true development of doctrine is something that was always there, that was often practiced and understood, but is uh articulated later on or comes to a fuller understanding later on, often in response to challenges to that traditional teaching.
So the way Catholics think about heresies.
Say we don't like heresies, they've been heresies since day one.
But they're great in the sense that they allow the church then to clearly define her teaching on Gnosticism, on the sexes, on what on uh the Immaculate, all the way up to the Immaculate Conception say.
Um, so that the doctrine is uh, you know, become becomes clearer over time.
Uh the way it can be abused by liberals in the church, even, is to say, well, the church used to say that, you know, marriage is between a man and a woman, but doctrine is developed and now it's between two guys and a billy goat.
You say, well, hold on, that's not a that's not a development, that's a change.
That's an innovation.
That's contrary to scripture, that's out.
Yeah.
But the liberals do use it that way.
Yeah.
No, that's helpful.
I think the idea that they they the development is only in as good as what they actually believed.
Yeah.
I think that would be my issue with both the Orthodox and a Catholic, is that ah, when I read and I go back and I'm trying to understand polycarp, I'm trying to understand these these apostles of the disciples of the apostles.
Justin Martyr, but Irenaeus.
Yeah, I think there's a there's a pretty big chasm between what they taught and believed and what is expressed.
And I what I appreciate about Catholics was doctrinal development.
Yeah.
Tends to kind of acknowledge that a little bit, whereas the Orthodox will say, no, this is the exact faith that the apostles practice.
Yes.
So regardless of what you think about any particular doctrine, you say, well, I I don't see that in the writings of uh Ignatius Van Diock.
But at the very least, the Catholics will say, well, here is why you think you don't see it, and here's why I think it's here, and here's why it seems different.
Whereas the Orthodox, the Orthoprose will say, this was always what was taught, and we haven't changed a jot or tittle.
I hear there's a Catholic party out of mind of my joke in.
Hi, Isabel, nice to meet you.
I'm coming through for the day.
Please do.
Can I jump in?
Feel free to shout from the sides.
That's good.
I love it.
Thank you.
Wait a minute, can I phone in Wes Huff?
What is going on?
Actually, you can't get it.
Phone is not.
I promise I won't weigh in.
We barred Wes Huff on the premises, actually.
Uh I thought you were going to say the reason it's more exhausting to debate the Orthoprose is because there's no unity of belief.
They've had these different patriarchs forever.
Historically speaking, again, there's no orthopros in the house, so I'm not going to be physically assaulted.
Oh, they're going to clip this.
They're going to destroy us, just so you know.
Typically, in the history of the church, going back to antiquity, uh-huh, challenges to doctrine, also known as heresies, uh, tended to come from the East.
Now, the Orthopros would could shoot those down too.
But a lot of these doctrines Arianism took a lot of hold in the in the East.
All sorts of things.
Arianism also had some issues In the West, but we stamped it out.
That because of that, you know, with the Catholics, we can say, look, to quote St. Augustine.
Rome has spoken, the issue is settled.
He said that on Arianism, actually.
In the East, they'd say, well, you know, Patriarch, you know, Papadopoulos said like five minutes ago that, you know, you have to have lamb in your souflacy and not chicken.
And then the other guy.
No, I'm just saying, no, listen, I have a great they have great liturgy.
I love I I'm mostly salty because I can't grow the beard.
Uh-huh.
I but you I would be Catholic too if I couldn't book.
Yeah, of course.
They will say, well, no, actually, there's this other tradition, there's this mystical tradition that actually says something different.
And so the thing that I find exhausting about debating our beloved uh brothers in in Orthodoxy is you can't pin them down on anything.
Whereas, you know, even in antiquity and through the Middle Ages, you'd have you'd have Eastern bishops come before the Great Sism.
You'd have Eastern bishops come, they'd all agree to something, right?
And then they'd go back and the emperor would say something different, and they'd like kind of ignore the council.
And so you can't say, well, you guys believe this, right?
And they say, well, but I can we also kind of believe this.
Let me ask you this.
So to to kind of throw a bones for my Orthodox brothers and sisters, do you think that they have maintained a closer tradition, not to the Apostolic Church, but to the three or four hundreds when a lot of these uh doctrines form.
Would you would you acknowledge that?
I would go further.
I would say, yes, they do have a great connection to the Apostolic Church.
Because they have apostolic succession, because they have uh generally speaking valid sacraments, because their their liturgy, I'll throw them on to the Orthodox, their liturgy is much more beautiful than a lot of what passes for modern liturgy and Catholicism.
Uh so no, listen, I'm being tough on them.
I I have I actually do have a great deal of respect for the Orthodox, but it's the point of unity.
You know, there are four four marks of the church.
One holy, Catholic, and apostolic in the Nicene Creed.
And so, yes, they've got the Apostolic, uh, sure, let's say it's holy, you know, they've got the claim to some kind of universality.
But where's the unity?
You know, the unity.
This is really where the primacy of Rome comes in.
But that was always a point between us and the Well, they would say that you guys are the ones that schismatic.
They say all sorts of stuff in Greek.
Who even speaks that, you know?
You just wave it off.
Yeah.
Hold on, one second.
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Okay.
All right.
Do you do you have any idea where the Pope and the Vatican as a whole stand on the death penalty, global warming, and illegal immigration and you have to guess how I would answer.
Yes.
Do you have any idea where the Pope and the Vatican as a whole stand on the death penalty, global warming, and illegal immigration Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, I know where where the Vatican stands.
And again, it's kind of mixing those issues together because the death penalty is a little different than say um global warming.
You know, global warming is a kind of prudential matter for the civil authority that is not entirely within the competency of the Holy See.
Uh death penalty is a little different.
And so for the entire history of the church, uh death penalty was fine under certain circumstances.
Church would today say like burning heretics at the state.
Yeah, yeah, we need to bring a little more of that back, frankly.
But that's a topic for another time.
And uh so, but in principle, capital punishment is okay under certain circumstances.
Okay.
So the church would say today, well, that teaching remains true.
Okay.
This the death penalty is okay under certain circumstances.
The question is over a prudential matter.
Are those circumstances satisfied today?
Because the death penalty comes from uh book of Genesis, right?
Whosoever sheds the blood of man by man shall his blood be shed.
For man is made in the image and likeness of God.
Because of human dignity, we have the death penalty.
And St. Paul says civil authority doesn't bear the sword in vain.
That was clear enough.
Some popes carried it out, including Blessed Pius IX, who oversaw 500 executions in the Papal States.
John Paul II says, yeah, it's fine in principle, but I oppose it practically because modern society allows us to protect society from the perpetrators, so you don't need to carry it out today.
Pope Benedict said much the same thing after JP2.
He said, look, reasonable minds can disagree on this, but practically I oppose it.
But Francis comes in and he says, the death penalty is morally inadmissible.
This is in the catechism.
So this is not an ex catheter teaching on faith and morals, you know, without error, officially pronounced.
It's just, he says it's morally inadmissible.
He doesn't say it's intrinsically evil because he can't, because that would contradict scripture and 2,000 years of church teaching.
So he says, morally and what is that word?
It's a little dubious.
Pope Leo has basically maintained that and says we work toward the abolition of the death penalty.
Okay.
Again, that's a prudential practical matter.
Unlike um what would you say?
Certainly not a dogma, no, it couldn't possibly be.
But so we can say, yes, we understand what the Vatican is saying about this today, but we see it in light of tradition and scripture and 2,000 years.
And so some of my Catholic friends.
I was speaking with the young lovely Isabel here about this earlier.
Some of them they fall into two errors on this.
The one, modern people, they don't care at all about what the Pope says.
But there is a deference to Rome.
Going back to the to antiquity, going back to the Apostolic Age, as far as I'm concerned.
You gotta care what the Pope says.
Maybe it's just because I'm Italian.
You don't you don't need to concern yourself with what the Pope ordered for lunch.
Okay?
You don't need to, it the Chad medieval peasant was not updating Twitter all the time.
What did the Pope say to some reporter today?
It's not.
You can have what I call a Mediterranean nonchalance.
When the Pope says something that is, you know, prudential, political, right?
In my mind, you don't need to stay up all night worrying about it.
Okay.
Two follow-up questions.
Yes.
It is fair.
I love how how nuanced you are on all of this.
This is amazing.
You sound like a liberal a little bit.
Hey.
Nuancing everyone.
You're a disciple of John Henry Newman.
Fair enough.
So could you see from the Protestant perspective and from the Orthodox perspective, how there's been many contradictions, or specifically on that one, let me just not say many and be general, but that seems from the outside looking in, of like, man, there's a lot of executions, and now it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Not so much.
Can you see how that's a contradiction?
I don't think it's a contradiction, but uh it's kind of two layers of um.
I know you don't think it's a contradiction.
I'm saying, can you see from our perspective?
I totally can.
Okay.
Because there's this kind of flattening basically of these two layers: doctrine, dogma, you know, perennial teachings of the church, and a kind of practical weighing in on politics.
Okay.
There's always been religious authorities have always had something to say about politics.
Uh it was pronounced in the West because uh the Western Roman Empire collapsed, and so the Pope had this unifying even political authority, but he's dealing with, in some cases, you know, Gothic kings, some of whom were heretics, Aryans, whatever.
In the East, they always had much more centralized political authority in the person of the Eastern Emperor.
Uh so because of that, I don't know, there's a kind of uh we recognize a distinction between the secular and the uh religious.
That they they play on one another, but they're I mean, even Dante wrote a whole uh beautiful piece about this in Monarchia about the distinction between the two.
Uh it's not all the same, but it can seem that way if you know the Pope is talking about environmental policy in some modern nation.
Yeah, there's the two categories are doctrine and dogma, and the second category is what was the uh like political issues.
Political issues.
Just modern political issues.
So death penalty, bad political issues.
Now, what if you're painting picture free?
What if all of a sudden the Catholic Church comes out and says, yeah, we know doctrine and dogma is like same sex couples, not good, but go ahead and let them get married.
We're already blessing the unions, uh Go ahead and let them get married and uh gay marriage, it's cool.
Would you would that then contradict the doctrine dogma?
Would the, you know, a famous Catholic debater said, if the Catholic Church ever allowed gay marriage, that would completely invalidate the entire Catholic Church.
Would you agree to that?
How would you feel about if it was gay marriage?
I'm reasonably confident that that could not happen.
Okay.
What if it did?
Wellidate the Catholic Church.
No, it wouldn't invalidate the Catholic Church.
It would it would mean that some prelate or someone was spouting heresy, you know, which has happened over the years.
But it it uh no, I wouldn't.
That would not supersede uh clear scriptural teaching and 2,000 years of magisterial authority.
It wouldn't happen.
Now the reason why I'm r confident that that would not happen is even just looking historically.
A lot of other uh ecclesial communities have spun off and they say they do I like how you call us ecclesial communities.
Ecclesial communities, yes.
It's you know, part of uh part of the mystical body of Christ, albeit not in the fullness of the church.
Yeah, you sound like an orthodox.
Yeah, but uh, you know, Martin Luther, I don't think would have been totally down with uh, you know, Steve and Bill getting married.
Yeah.
Uh I don't think uh Zvingley or Calvin would be into that either.
Agreed.
And yet, there are some people who would call themselves Lutherans today who support that.
Obviously, the uh Anglican church supports that.
Yeah.
Plenty of other, even not plenty of non-denominational churches are fun.
We got a name for those folks.
You call them heretics.
We don't do stuff with them.
Yes.
We don't invite heretics to our events.
We don't, we don't partner with heretics.
We're like, they're bad.
But I would I would say you look at the church, the Catholic Church.
Uh huh.
There are there are plenty of uh liberal priests, some of whom go on TV and who seem to push the envelope.
I don't want to name these Jesuits, but they seem to push the envelope, and yet even they don't go that far.
And so the fact that the Catholic Church has survived through modernity, despite all of the problems of this fallen world with the men who run the show.
To me, that's an evidence that we're we're actually, I feel pretty good about it.
I I would be way willing to wager every dollar to my name that at no point ever will the Catholic Church uh redefine marriage, say.
And I don't know that I would say that about other communities.
All right.
That's a big wager.
That's another wager.
Should we do another wager?
Yeah, yeah, we might.
I know.
We might not be around to prove it.
People, someone's gonna Google your net worth after this.
Uh okay.
That's what I need.
I'm also gonna need a raise from the Daily Wives.
All right, I gotta sneak out, Michael, but I can't resist a good theological debate.
So I'm not gonna do that.
Yeah, you're leaving?
You're leaving.
No, I gotta go film other things.
What about when the hard ones come up and I need to do that?
I know, I'm sorry.
Maybe I'll feel the vibes too much.
Uh I'm up.
You're up.
Who's winning?
Clear the.
I think we're tied.
We're tied.
Yeah, okay.
Okay.
I cleared mine.
Now, before we get to this prompt, we have to watch this video.
All right.
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Work that they don't wanna do, that's why I got the upper Hand advantage, feelin'like I'm at the last supper Never eatin'vegan beef, got me through the summer Eating more chicken, cause the cows are living longer.
Go into the gym, but my mind is getting stronger.
And D John spend it in me and owned by any corporation, a artist who was silly clowns up on my own.
All right.
Is rap music cultural appropriation?
Wait, wait, hold on.
Is is rap music cultural appropriation?
Yes.
Not fit for liturgy.
That's not the question is is it cultural appropriation?
Cultural appropriation of what?
Like, is it mixing genres and stealing from any other genres?
Is it essentially Armenian or is it something else?
I have to answer your are you a cultural.
Are you an appropriator?
Am I an appropriator?
Well, I don't want that's your word.
I would say appropriate.
Proprieta.
Yeah.
Is rap music.
I think the question would be better, like, is are white dudes making rap music culturally appropriating.
And are Armenians white?
I mean, that's a whole separate thing.
That's a rabbit hole in the question.
So is that is is that what they're you appropriate?
Is a non-artist who is making it.
You're literally from the caucuses.
I'm I'm a real Caucasian as They get.
Yeah, yeah.
The rest of you guys are frauds.
Yes, yes.
And the Sicilians have always been a little African.
Okay.
What would you say?
Is it cultural appropriation?
It's a great question.
All right.
I got it wrong.
I said yes.
I said it is cultural.
Oh.
How is it not cultural appropriation?
Because I think the beautiful part about cultural is that you're blending and breeding together different aspects that are creating in America what we would call a melting pot.
Therefore, you are appropriating some other culture.
You're using cultural culture.
Give me my point back.
He just said in his explanation that I was right.
But I'll store it.
So I think I think it's because cultural appropriation would be a negative connotation.
It has an I like it though.
I think appropriating culture is.
So when I think of cultural appropriation, I think of like, I think this is this would get me canceled.
I think of rappers who will use gospel music and elements of gospel music to create a feel while rapping about the most debaucherous interesting, awful things.
So I think that's actually appropriating Christian culture.
Or like a music video.
There was a priest that I actually met in in New York who allowed a music video to be shot in one of his churches.
Sabrina Carpenter, right?
Yes.
Who I actually like, but that's right.
And I like the priest that I met.
He was the sweetest guy.
I'm not gonna name check him here.
Maybe I'll make a video about it later.
And he used the church, and I think like that's cultural appropriation.
So I take it as like a negative term.
You're saying it can only be negative.
I that's the way I heard it.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's what I heard about it.
Versus seeing it as like a positive of like, hey, we're gonna create, we're gonna take Japanese and Chinese food and create Asian fusion.
Because you know, not to be not to be too glib about it, but you know, scripture tells us Christianity is appropriative, you know, there's neither Jew nor Greek.
Yes, right?
We're all one in so like I agree, it has this negative connotation.
I think it's good though.
I mean, America has always kind of thrived on cultural appropriation, going back to the the Mayflower.
Yeah.
And uh I think it's good, but to your point, you want to appropriate good things.
Yes.
Now, what do you think, like you mentioned the the rappers who bring out who f bring gospel into their stuff?
Pre-Heil Hitler.
Kanye would do that, I think in a pretty good way.
I actually I have a kind of esoteric take on his Hitler song too.
But when he would do, you know, like gee, sauce walks, like that was a good song.
I'm glad he was rapping about that.
His Jesus is King album.
I thought that was it's not my speed, but I thought it was good generally.
Uh so it's okay if they do it, like in that case, in Jesus Walks.
Was that a good use of cultural appropriation?
So Jesus, well, Jesus Walks is like a I mean, that's a classic amazing record that it's difficult for me to detach my emotional, you know, appreciation for that record versus the standard of it.
So I think when someone is authentically sharing their experience, the way Kanye did on Jesus is King or on the on the Donda album, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Because I think Kanye was going through his journey with Jesus and trying to figure it out and wrestling and unfortunately had some setbacks in that I think he's trying to find his way back to the Lord.
I'd like to believe that.
Yeah, yeah, I think, versus, hey, I'm going to take this this these chords, I'm gonna take this style of music, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then just rap about craziness.
And that does happen where they're taking stuff that's you know overtly Christian sounding, yeah, yeah, and they're rapping themes and concepts that are incongruent with said value.
Yeah, yeah.
So let me ask me, can I ask you a follow-up question?
Yes.
Okay, so there's a lot of railing between so you you like cultural appropriation as a positive.
If it's good, if it's if you're if you're appropriating a good culture.
Yeah, if you're appropriating.
But then what's the difference between that and and what uh the issue that a lot of folks have now, especially on the right is like multiculturalism.
Because when I hear multiculturalism, I think of what you described as good cultural appropriation.
Yeah, yeah.
Yet we're saying, but multiculturalism seems to mean something different now, or have I always misunderstood.
No, I think multiculturalism is kind of the opposite of cultural appropriation in the sense that it's saying, look, we uh black people need to celebrate Kwanzaa.
Christmas is for the white kids, Hanukkah's for the Jewish kids, and Kwanz is for the black kids.
And I was like, wait a second.
Aren't blacks Christian?
I I've met a plenty of Christian black people.
And they say, no, no, no.
You basically you're fixed in your culture, which is itself.
And all the cultures have to coexist together.
Yes, but but without really sharing anything.
Got it.
Without any without ever giving anything up, Without ever taking anything on.
So to me, it's like this uh there's the image of the melting pot, for better or worse.
And the multiculturalism is the image of the salad bowl.
You know, the tomato doesn't take on parts of the cucumber.
But in that beef stew, man, it's all kind of getting jumbled up in it, right?
So I the the libs have obviously pushed the the multiculturalism thing.
But I say, no, no, let's appropriate even more.
Let's appropriate, well.
If there is a good part to appropriate from rap music, I guess there is some good beats or whatever, then you appropriate that part and you get rid of the you know gang shit.
Absolutely womanizing or whatever.
And that's ha that's happened.
That's happened within Christian music.
I'm not sure how much you're keeping up with Christian hip hop.
Guys like Indie Tribe, uh guys like John Key.
I play it on the ukulele.
No big deal.
I would love to hear you play.
Forrest Frank, you know is doing a lot of amazing components of hip hop music in his art and is, I mean, he's doing arenas, selling out arenas.
Yeah, yeah.
And it and it fuses all these beautiful elements together that I think is awesome.
Now, do you think rap music is music?
It can be.
Okay.
I think for it to be music, there has to be some element to it beyond the percussive.
Yeah, melody.
Yeah, there has to be at least a melody, something vaguely.
People would agree with that.
Yes.
Yeah.
Uh though I'm with Plato.
I think we have to be very careful about music.
So I'm not like, bring it on, man, and we'll all just I music, more than any other art form, can bypass the reason straight to the sensitive soul.
And so you've got to be very careful what you're putting into your ears.
And uh so a lot of and that's especially true with perc percussive music, which is why, you know, you it's it's hard to be um brainwashed by Brahms.
And you can be brainwashed by some rapper, you know, by a puff.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, exactly.
You reference Puff Daddy, okay.
That's nice.
Yeah, I never I'm salty because I never got an invite to a white party or a freak-off.
And I'm glad I didn't want to go, but yeah, it's true, but I was it's you want to be invited.
You think rap music is music, take that.
It can be Shapiro.
It's some kind of music.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And but he's now a uh, you know, he's a number one billboard charting rapper.
Yeah, with Dr. Dradel.
Tom, Tom Tom McDonald.
Tom McDonald, yeah, Dr. Dradel, and I'm I'm a little salty about that too, okay?
But that's all right.
Okay, uh, you ready?
Yes.
It's on me.
Video or prompt.
Okay.
Okay.
This is interesting.
So I broke my back exactly two weeks ago.
This is today, day 14.
Woo!
Uh got uh an X-ray and a CAT scan.
It showed that I had multiple fractures.
Could not move an inch without excusing pain.
You wake up.
I wake up today, forget to put on my back brace, just start doing the morning.
I pick Bodhi up, and then I realize, wait, I'm not wearing my brace.
What is going on?
I'm I'm wearing my brace right now for precautions.
Order an urgent X-ray, go get the X-ray.
I have complete healing in my back, and I have no fractures in my back.
No sign, no sign of a fracture in my back.
So praise God.
We saw a miracle.
Did we just see a miracle?
So I get to do I guess first, which your answer's gonna be, or do I wait?
If you think you know me better than I know myself, maybe you do.
I'm gonna read your face here.
Okay.
Did we see we just see a miracle?
Oh, man, this is hard, because you're Catholic.
I say yes.
I I want you say yes.
I I'll give it to you because it's not within my competency to declare a miracle.
Uh however, if you if you say gun to my head, you have to bet.
Uh you know, you're you're going to the you're going to the conference, this is on.
Yeah.
I would say, yeah, I'd bet it probably was.
If it if it is not explainable by natural means, and this guy is saying uh saying, you know, we prayed for this or whatever, you know, we've got that's force frank, that's my friend.
Forest Frank, yeah, yeah.
I I remember when that happened.
I would say, yeah, good chance it's a miracle.
Miracles happen.
Yeah.
You know, it's just even in ecclesial.
Even gathering.
Even to Protestant.
Even to Protestants.
Even to Protestants.
Look, even I would say if a miracle can happen to a Hindu.
I guess it could happen to a Protestant, too.
Well, thank you for that.
I'll I'll take it.
No, and also because, you know, a miracle is a working of God's grace, supernatural race.
So it's not, you know, I don't get to say, uh, well, no, I don't want a miracle.
And Forest Frank seems like a nice guy.
But I I don't gonna say, well, I don't like Johnny.
I I I don't because uh God is not working in a way that I have prescribed, he's not allowed to do that.
You don't want to tell God he's not allowed to do things.
That's good.
He will he will prove you wrong.
Yeah, that's good.
And I and I and I think I probably get a lot of flack from some of my Protestant uh brethren who get mad when I acknowledge miracles in the Catholic Church and miracles in the Orthodox Church.
That's pretty good.
I'm glad we agree there.
Okay, of course, David.
Are we gonna pull up any Catholic miracles?
No, they're all they're all miracles from Gods.
They're all okay.
Uh I'm up.
This is Oh gosh.
Are you ready for this?
It's the rapid fire round.
Three questions, 30 seconds, no times to outthink each other.
Let's go.
They change the colors.
That's how you know we're rapid fire.
Right now, am I l that's bad.
I'm losing at one to three.
But even though.
I guess you're coming to the blessed.
But he there was the one where he anyway, that's fine.
That's fine.
I'm not, look, it's good.
If I lose, I win, because I get to go to the Blessed God Summit.
All right.
Uh are the questions written here.
Oh, yes, they are.
Okay.
This is where I I fumble my lead, huh?
Okay.
Is the Annabelle doll actually demon-possessed?
No.
No.
Is the gateway process, which is I've never heard of, I don't know what that is.
Is it just witchcraft for fizz?
Yes.
All right.
I don't even know what that is, and I got that right.
That was good.
Dang it.
Is hustle culture antithetical to Christian culture?
Ah, these are too easy.
Yes.
Yeah.
Hustle culture.
That was good.
That was good.
Well, you might get it back on your end.
Is what the only one, I don't know about Annabelle or whatever, and obviously not like that.
I don't think an inanimate object can be.
Inanimate object cannot be demon-possessed.
Unless it's like Chucky or whatever.
And then gateway.
What is the gateway process?
The gateway process is this real interesting CIA operative where they started using psychics and different experiments of tapping into the spiritual.
Oh yeah, I've read about this.
Super trivial.
This is all documented.
You can pull it up and see I documents, and they were able to like track down certain information in the cold.
That's the thing.
It probably like kind of worked.
Yeah.
It is.
It wasn't like 100% accurate, but there were times where they would get certain information.
Yeah, okay, I totally buy that.
Hustle culture.
Is that like I'm gonna get up on my grind, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go uh get that green, get them stacks.
Whatever.
I don't know.
Your best rapper impersonation again.
Thanks.
Yeah, I'm training.
I love it.
My debut.
Uh why is it antithetical to Christian culture?
I agree.
Yeah.
I think what's antithetical is what is your utmost aim?
What are you shooting for?
And I think the beautiful part about following Jesus is Jesus becomes the thing we're aiming at.
And as Jesus is who we're aiming at, that is going to be contextual to where we are.
So man, if you're in North Korea or China, aiming for Jesus is gonna cost you probably everything.
Whereas in the West, aiming for Jesus, trying to live Jesus' ways, trying to apply what he's done in your heart to live it out.
I think it's generally, not always, because you can still get hit by a car, cancer can still cause.
Still be assassinated.
Yeah, you can still be assassinated.
But generally speaking, will lead to flourishing, generally speaking.
That okay, that's a fair point.
And also, I like it because you know the hustle culture makes an ultimate end of an instrumental good.
So like money can be it's not that money is all is evil.
The love of money is all you're doing.
But it's like you can you can use money in wonderful ways, charitable ways, take care of your family, but you have it has to be for something.
It really has to be for the glory of God.
Right down to the martini.
Martini is for the glory of God in as much as it facilitates a good conversation with somebody, you know, in right.
So, okay.
All right, that's good.
So I just I took the leap.
You're up.
Gosh, darn.
Here we go.
All right.
Rapid fire.
What?
Is Sola Scriptura a recipe for Amon Hillman style TikTok theology?
I I don't even know who Eam and Hillman is.
I don't either.
Okay.
Uh gotta clear that.
Okay.
Yeah, for sure.
Okay.
Are most Hollywood elites involved in the Illuminati or Freemasonry?
Okay.
We would care a lot more about the Armenian-Azerbaijan conflict if Armenia had more oil and lobbyists.
Oh gosh.
I gotta get one of these right.
Uh okay.
Darn, yes.
Though the yes, obviously, when you have lobbyists.
Yep.
But the the actual reason.
I'm I'm I'm as pro-Armenia as it is possible for an American to be.
But the actual hard reason why we're not more into it is because they they're allies with Russia and Iran.
And so from a grand strategic standpoint, it's hard to support Armenia.
But I think the US government should, as out of Christian uh, you know, charity and fidelity.
But anyway, okay.
Darn!
How do we do it the other ones?
Yeah, you got them all right.
Yes.
Yeah, you got them all right.
Okay, all right.
Okay.
Uh this is great.
It's time for the final round.
All right.
The prompt will be read.
We will both lock in our answers, then move our glasses to yes or no to see if we can read each other's minds, not through witchcraft.
This round is worth double points.
It could change everything.
Right now the score is four, me, six, you.
Now the way we're gonna do it here, I'm gonna put my drink on my name.
You're gonna put your drink on your name.
All right.
I'll take a sip first.
Is that okay?
Yeah, that's good.
It's pure gin, I think, right?
Yeah, room too.
It's actually vodka.
It's the the Russian side.
Okay.
So we read the prompt, we lock in our answers first on what we would answer for ourselves.
Well, we would answer for ourselves.
Yes.
And then we move each other's drink to where we think the other person would like it.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
All right.
So do we both have our card?
No, there'll be two.
There'll be two.
There'll be two.
You leave that there.
Sorry.
Okay.
Have you ever seen a demon manifest?
In person?
Yes.
In person, not counting videos, right?
In person.
OK.
Your poker face is killing me.
You're gonna say.
And you gotta move mine where you think I'm gonna go.
Oh, okay.
Okay, ready.
One, two, three.
Correct.
Okay.
I got it wrong.
Oh it was 50-50.
I was gonna say no.
Oh, man.
My wife's gonna be so angry when I leave town again in March.
Thank you.
Uh okay.
So you have.
You haven't.
So I I have not in person.
Yeah.
Uh I have not.
I've I have friends that that do a lot of the uh deliverance stuff.
Yeah.
And they have shown me videos and they've talked about it extensively.
And it I believe demonization is real.
I believe it could happen.
Uh I think I think it does happen.
Like a lot of what we're dealing with is stuff in the unseen realm manifesting itself in our reality.
I have never seen it in person.
Have you ever heard one?
Like in person?
Yeah.
No, no.
I have.
This is gonna be really sad.
You ready for this?
I have tried to cast out a demon once.
Did it work?
No, I think it was just a do it schizophrenia.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Okay.
But it could be.
We really tried though.
And then I was like, I think you just need to take your meds, dude.
Yeah, this is.
I I have I've I've never been involved in an exorcism or anything like that.
But I do have friends who have done it, and exorcist friends too.
And uh, you know, the first thing they do is they basically check for mental illnesses.
Yes.
It's kind of like with a with a na uh other kind of like a miracle.
You'd first say is there a natural explanation?
Okay, you tr you exhaust all the natural diagnoses, okay, maybe this is something else.
Uh you ever have sleep paralysis?
Yes.
So I think sleep paralysis is a medical condition that is not necessarily always attributable to supernatural.
Yeah.
I might have heard a demon once.
I might have heard one.
It was I've only experienced sleep.
I didn't think about it, I didn't think about it with sleep paralysis.
Now the answer would still be the same because you don't see.
Yeah.
Well, I guess you could, but I did I think one time I might have heard one.
Yeah.
I'm with you.
Yeah.
I'm with you.
I I used to have sleep paralysis really bad.
Did you?
Yeah.
And not anymore.
Yeah.
Because someone casted all the demons out of me.
Maybe, yeah, like legitimately.
That was a joke.
Yeah, yeah.
That was a joke.
I was just, I was at a baptism the other day.
Godfather to another kid.
And uh, you know, the right, the traditional rite of of baptism involves multiple exorcisms.
Because baptism.
Yep.
Oh wow.
So you cast out the demons and uh and then you put a little salt on their tongue, sal sapiensia.
It's great because little babies have it's the first time they taste salt, and it's like barely they're not reacting to the demons, I don't think.
I think it's mostly the salt.
Uh okay.
How many kids have you uh godfathered?
I am a godfather of five kids.
All right, to my knowledge.
I think only five.
This is where my rapper identity is.
I was gonna say, whoa.
It's eight, two.
There's no there's no coming back from okay, all right.
Well, I'm asking you the last question.
Yes, this is I'm gonna lose anyway, but maybe I can finish my drink.
Okay.
Okay, this is good.
are the pyramids of egypt remnants of pre-flood technology I said no.
Why did I guess it doesn't matter?
All right, it doesn't matter.
He's just getting no, he's talking about.
I ruined this point, all right.
Now you have to guess how I would answer.
Give me my points.
Oh!
They it's kind of a You think it's pre-flood technology?
It's a cheap answer.
They l they literally are remnants of pre-flood technology because they were made using technology.
Oh no, shoot.
I yeah, I I was reading that as ancient technology.
Yes.
So basically, were they pre-flood is the question.
Were they built pre-flood?
Right.
Well, I want the points anyway, so I'll say yes.
But I don't I'm a little more agnostic on that question.
You don't think so, though.
You think flood happened, then they built the pyramids.
Yeah.
What why do you say that?
I I because I'm a I'm a I'm a Protestant and I just read the Bible in linear fashion.
And I don't have any magistrates or popes that tell me otherwise.
Where are the pyramids in the Bible?
Hold on.
I want to look into.
Because you know, there's a strange fact, which is that uh Cleopatra lived closer in time to the building of the Bass Pro Shop pyramid than she did to the building of the Great Pyramid of Giza.
Even by historical, yes.
Yes.
Okay.
But you don't think you don't think there's any world in which the pyramids are much older than we think they are?
I think it's possible, yeah.
I think it's possible.
And you're right, the scriptures don't describe the pyramids.
There's no book of the pyramid.
Yeah, there's no book of the phone.
I think when I whenever I read Egypt, all the Christian movies I saw make me think that the Israel Israelites were building the pyramids.
Yeah, okay, all right.
And so that's not in there.
You're right.
Okay.
That's that's that's me getting away from so.
So I get so what do we got?
Okay, final score, I still lose.
Yeah.
Four to six.
That means I'm going to your conference.
You're going to my car.
All right, that'll be that's great.
That's a that's a win as far as I'm concerned.
A win for the Protestants!
We needed one!
Ever since the 16th century, you guys are racking up dubs.
Uh, go get Rousalon's new book, Godly Ambition unlocking the full potential of time.
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Oh, they said unblocking.
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