The Michael Knowles Show - Michael & The Ghost Hunter: "We Recorded The Ghost Screaming"

Aug. 23, 2025 - The Michael Knowles Show

01:42:44

Michael & The Ghost Hunter: "We Recorded The Ghost Screaming" | Kristina Costanza

From hunting ghosts on national TV to confronting the dangers of the occult, Kristina Costanza has seen it all. Once the star of her own paranormal investigation show on the Travel Channel, Kristina is now a Christian—leaving behind the ghost-hunting world to warn others about what really lurks in the shadows. In this powerful conversation, Michael Knowles dives deep into Kristina’s most chilling experiences, the truth about the supernatural, and why she turned her back on the darkness to follow Christ. - - - Today’s Sponsor: Express VPN - Protect your online privacy today by going to https://ExpressVPN.com/MichaelYT and you can get an extra 4 months FREE - - - Privacy Policy: https://www.dailywire.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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	These are questions that take cultures thousands of years to answer.
	During Answer the Call, I take questions from people just like you about their problems, opportunities, challenges, or when they simply need advice.
	How do I balance all this grief, responsibility?
	How do you repair this kind of damage?
	My daughter, Mikaela, guides the conversations as we hopefully help people navigate their lives.
	Everyone has their own destiny.
	Everyone.
	you you you you you When I was at an asylum in Upstate New York, I would tell these spirits, you can use my body, talk through me and they would.
	My team captured a crazy class A ABP.
	I come at these things with a healthy dose of skepticism.
	It doesn't seem that bad.
	The longer I stayed in, the darker experiences I had.
	It changed and multiplied into these 8 to 10 foot tar beings, they be grinning at me and taunting me, kind of like, I got you.
	Did you ever think, you know, maybe I should get out of this?
	It just kept getting worse and worse right up until I got saved.
	Music.
	Have you ever seen a ghost?
	It's amazing how many people you talk to.
	You go into a room of 20 people.
	Multiple people will say they have seen a ghost at some point.
	Everyone pretends like they don't believe in ghosts, but then a lot of people will tell you they've seen one.
	My guest today has hunted them.
	That would be Christina Costanza.
	Christina, thank you for coming on the show.
	Thank you for having me on.
	You're a former ghost hunter.
	Yes, I am.
	How do you get into that line of work?
	Oh boy, that's a loaded question.
	Well, you don't get into it without being curious to begin with, but it kind of just found me.
	I grew up being very afraid of the spiritual realm, being very aware of it, but not ever wanting to make contact with anything or not even really realizing you could outside of your everyday psychic, I guess.
	And I grew up going to church.
	I was raised Catholic.
	And it wasn't ever something that was kind of...
	I stood straight up and I was very afraid, very afraid.
	I didn't want anything to do with it, but there was this little spark of curiosity that lit up within me.
	And I'm like, do I have this gift?
	I was told by other psychics that I have this gift, this ability.
	And I'm like, okay, let me just shelf that for a little while and move on with my teenage life.
	And a few years later, I was 16 years old and I heard another voice in my bedroom this time.
	And it was whispering, yes, just over and over into my ear.
	And I had a deck of tarot cards that I had just purchased from a local bookstore.
	And I decided to try to make contact and just kind of make up my own spells and stuff like that.
	And to really no avail.
	But that was really when the curiosity started peeking in me.
	Okay, hold on.
	I've got to rewind.
	So you say you're a kid and you say you were aware of the spiritual world, but you didn't want to communicate with it.
	But you were raised Catholic.
	So you're, at the very least, you're praying to God.
	Yes.
	You're availing yourself of the sacraments.
	You're participating in.
	way in the spiritual yes i loved going to church i loved god i i had this reverence for him i believed in heaven and just the i loved the holiness of church and god and God and everything like that.
	But you're also going to psychics.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	What?
	Yeah.
	Why are you doing that?
	It doesn't compute, it doesn't mix.
	Because I didn't know.
	I didn't know my Bible.
	I wasn't reading the word.
	I didn't know that God had told me to stay away from that stuff.
	Yeah.
	Very clearly, very obviously.
	But I thought I could mix the two.
	So how do you decide to go to a psychic?
	You're just walking down the street in the strip mall, you see the get your fortune told?
	Well, I grew up right outside of Boston in Quincy, Massachusetts, which is very close to Salem, Massachusetts, very famous for the witch trials.
	It is the witch city now.
	A lot of psychics, a lot of ghost tours, all these things.
	And I'd go up and visit, you know, once a summer, just for a day or something and stop into the local psychic and get my future read.
	So okay, they're they say we're going to read your future but you're you know it's not necromancy it's not hey we're going to contact great grandma salad.
	No okay.
	No I wasn't anything part of seancey type stuff maybe at a sleepover trying to do those types of things, but nothing formally or professionally really until I was about like 21 years old.
	Okay, so you're you're raised Catholic.
	It doesn't it doesn't stick you fall away from faith you're talking to psychics you hear disembodied voices do you immediately recognize the disembodied voices as a spiritual reality or do you think oh maybe I just heard something go bump in the night.
	Maybe this is just my imagination.
	Well, I I definitely I never thought that because I I was told by psychics that I had the ability.
	Other people in my life, my my dad was sensitive.
	He was spiritual.
	He was a born again Christian, but he also believed in that stuff as well.
	We we knew there was life beyond this physical realm.
	So to me, it made me feel special that these voices, these what I thought were people would try to find me and communicate with me.
	And I didn't know why, but all I knew is I wanted to find out more.
	You know, it just kind of led me down that breadcrumb trail until I really started professionally doing it for a living.
	So who do you think is saying sh and yes?
	Do you think it'ss a ghost?
	Do you think it's a demon?
	Do you think it's a good spirit?
	At that time, what do you think?
	At that time, I thought it was a ghost, which would have been, in my interpretation back then, the voice of a person who was formally living.
	Yes.
	As opposed to a demon or an entity or a spiritual being.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So you've now heard the second voice.
	You're feeling very special.
	Yes.
	You have the special gift because the local psychic told you.
	So then what?
	Then I just kind of lived my life.
	I'm pursuing photography and acting and all these different things.
	And I had met a former teammate of mine at a nail salon, and she was showing the nail tech EVP, which is an electronic voice phenomenon, which is basically when you take a digital recorder or it could be cassette at that point as well.
	You ask questions, and when you play it back in between the questions, you can actually capture voices, answers, and different things.
	And so she was showing the nail tech evidence that she was doing.
	that she had captured on a former ghost hunt and I was like, wow, that is crazy.
	And at that time I was trying to build a photography business.
	I'm like, here, if you have any photos, let me know.
	No, and that's how it all happened.
	So is it real?
	We have some simulacrum of one of these devices, I guess, here.
	Is that real or is it kind of like the pictures of Bigfoot?
	You say it's grainy.
	It's, I think, did he say, you know, go drink a youhood?
	Or was it?
	Hold on.
	Is that just a scratch on the tape?
	Well, there are different classes of EBPs.
	So there's class A, B, C. It depends on the clarity, if you can really hear it, how long it is and what not, what exactly the content is.
	But a lot of that stuff, I think, is real because I witnessed it personally being in a big event where nobody is talking.
	You're in an abandoned building in the middle of nowhere and you're capturing what seems to be disembodied voices having conversations or yelling and screaming and smacking in old asylums.
	It's, yeah, I wish it was made up.
	I think maybe some of the evidence that you hear out there could be, but what I personally witnessed was 1000 percent because you're recording it.
	Because I was recording it.
	So it wouldn't be some planted hoax thing that you were in charge of it.
	Correct.
	What are the conversations about?
	So basically when you're at a location you're asking, who are you?
	Why are you here?
	What's your name?
	Is there anything you'd like to say?
	Just maybe what's your favorite color?
	Are you happy that we're here talking to you?
	Just kind of getting playful with questions, maybe being creative, just asking your standard run-of-the-mill questions, I guess you would ask a ghost at that time.
	And the craziest one I ever caught was at an asylum in upstate New York.
	Where was it?
	Rolling Hills Asylum.
	Yeah, yeah, I think you know that asylum.
	Been there many times.
	I grew up in upstate, a little north of the city, so I think I remember.
	And I've been there many times.
	And the first time I was there, I captured, me and my team captured a crazy class A EVP with what sounds like a patient- nurse struggle, like a shrieking scream and you hear like a smack almost as if the nurse smacked the patient and you hear like don't you ever do that it was and this i'm not going to be super loud right now but it was i actually listened to it and it was horrifying chills you can't make it up because then we if you hear in the recording we just carry on with our conversation no
	one is making this up you have sound guys next to you you have people recording so it's Sometimes if there's a lot of people there, it's hard to fake the evidence.
	Can you hear it in the room or you only hear it on the playback?
	Only on the playback.
	That's the thing.
	You don't hear it.
	Sometimes certain people like myself, I could hear certain things it on the playback.
	So it confirmed what I was hearing or different pieces of equipment would confirm what my own body, my eyes, my ears were seeing and feeling.
	I believe that a lot of this stuff is real.
	I also come at these things with a healthy dose of skepticism.
	Having been to, I think it was that asylum, but I definitely remember a shutdown asylum in upstate New York, you can feel a kind of spiritual oppression around this place.
	It is dark.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It is a lot of, especially that one, there's been so much darkness that's happened there.
	You know, it was a poor house back in the 1800s where people would just send menopausal women or disabled children.
	Just a lot of dark, dark things happened and they would have, you know, upstate New York, it's very cold in the winter.
	They couldn't bury the bodies.
	So they would have to stack them up in the morgue.
	And I would put myself in that meatlocker and try to do these ghost sessions, trying to communicate, trying to capture evidence.
	being down in these basements, you just, you can feel the heaviness and the darkness in some of these places.
	Why would you want to do this?
	I mean, assuming if you think it's real, I think that this stuff is real in principle, though there can be plenty of hoaxes.
	But if you think it's real, we've talked on this show before about the demonic and the angelic and all of these sorts of things.
	But if you think it's real, to me, it's kind of like cockroaches.
	I think cockroaches are real.
	I think we need to fight cockroaches so they don't take over our house.
	But I don't want to be around cockroaches.
	I don't want to put myself in the cockroach headquarters.
	What would draw you to pursue this?
	I agreed now, like looking back, I'm like, why would what would ever possess me to do this?
	But when you don't understand the spiritual ramifications of seeking after these things.
	It's just fun.
	There could be a multitude of reasons.
	Some people are in it just for the thrill of it.
	Some people are actually skeptical.
	I know atheists and skeptics that didn't believe in it, that they were doing this to seek and they wanted to have their minds change.
	There was people like myself that were curious.
	You want to be able to make contact.
	At the time that I was in it, it was a lot of scientific equipment involved.
	People were using electromagnetic field readers, thermal imaging cameras, and I myself wanted to bring spirituality back to it.
	And back in my days, I wanted to add the feminine touch to it.
	it and um i added what do you mean the feminine the feminine touch um kind of let's not be so this is my mindset back in the day be nice to the ghosts you mean kind of more the spiritual you know be nice to the ghost but um it was a very male dominated field at the time and wanting to bring some softness in witchcraft i'm just going to say it i want to bring witchcraft okay all right the industry yeah do these spells and rituals to try to kick up the energy so hold on were you were you a witch Yeah, you name it.
	I was.
	I was kind of a spiritual cafeteria spiritualist, as I would say.
	little bit of this, a little bit of that.
	I was very much into the new age, the law of attraction, crystals, candles, tarot cards.
	So you were a millennial white woman.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Yeah.
	Oh yeah.
	And I was vegan at one point.
	Yep.
	All this stuff.
	You get it.
	Yeah.
	So you were, you were dabbling in all of this, but did you, were you conscious of it?
	Would you say, I'm a little witchy, you know, I'm.
	Oh, I wore it like a badge of honor.
	You know, I was witchy.
	I was the ghost girl, even though people that I grew up with would be like, you're what?
	Like you, You were afraid of everything.
	um but it just so quickly became my identity i was that was who i was i was the ghost girl and i was witchy i was i i wore all these labels, you know, liberal, witchy, vegan, well, all these different things.
	Tomato, tomato.
	Yeah, right.
	And I, because I was seeking.
	I was hurting and I was seeking for identity.
	Why were you hurting?
	I was hurting.
	I mean, I was just struggling with depression.
	I was struggling with anxiety.
	I was, I wasn't walking with the Lord.
	So I had this big God-shaped hole in my heart.
	So I was trying to fill that with witchcraft, with drinking, drugs, alcohol, ghost hunting, all of the things that kind of satisfy the flesh for.
	time being, but the next morning you just wake up and you're just as empty, if not emptier than before.
	You know, I was going to joke and say back in my wayward youth when I was atheist, a bit more libertarian.
	So yeah, the drinking, the partying, the girls, this, staying up late.
	Ghost hunting was not on the list.
	Except that's actually not fair because when I was a teenager, my mother died unexpectedly.
	And I did have a strong impulse to say, hey, I was an atheist.
	I said, can I, is it possible, can you talk to the dead?
	Is it possible to talk to God?
	I didn't pursue it that much, but.
	I did Google it.
	I remember.
	So even that, I get, okay, I get it.
	When you're in a, when you're lost and you're confused and you're longing for something, I, I. I actually do see how you could end up to that place.
	But then the story you mentioned, you said you heard this conversation between a patient and a nurse and a smack and a this.
	So ostensibly that was a real event that took place that you were hearing the echo of.
	Possibly.
	So what was it?
	What do you now think that was?
	I now believe from just being on my own spiritual journey and what I've read in the Bible is that these are familiar spirits that the Lord talks about.
	They are demons masquerading as beings of light, just like how 2 Corinthians talks about Satan himself comes as a being of light and so do his minions.
	And these spirits are watching, they're understanding what you're seeking, what you're curious about.
	And I personally believe they were pretending they're putting on a show to draw you in, kind of like a mosquito light, you know, where you think you're heading towards something that's bright and beautiful.
	It seems real, it seems good, and the closer you get you don't realize it's leading you to death.
	That these beings are going to do anything they can to get you as far away from the world.
	from the lord as possible so i personally that that's why they do come as people you know of scenarios of you know depending on the location you're at, like, oh, there was a cowboy that lived here.
	And, oh, I saw the cowboy is going to come here.
	I think they're very clever and they're really maniacal and they're going to do anything they can to keep you coming back.
	So you're saying 100% confident it's demons.
	Yes.
	Is it a possibility that it's a ghost?
	I know that's a question.
	I personally, from what I have...
	I don't see anywhere that says we can come back and talk to our loved ones and hey my necklace is in the drawer over here or communicate in that sense but there are ghosts in the bible there are ghosts in the bible yeah so there's the ghost of the witch of endor the ghost of samuel comes up and the the witch kind of actually seems surprised that she conjured the ghost yeah she probably she probably was a fraudster before that but you see the ghost of samuel you see in the transfiguration the ghosts of moses and elijah Those are ghosts, right?
	They're not demons.
	Those are their spirits.
	Right.
	Well, what the witch of Endor, what I find fascinating is I don't know if she meant to do that.
	I don't know if she's ever done that before.
	Right, right.
	I agree.
	And what I love about this topic is that even just scholars, biblical scholars, there's no like one consensus on the witch of Endor of what actually happened because I'm between two schools of thought where, all right, the Bible says that Samuel came up.
	Okay.
	So it says it's Samuel.
	It doesn't say it's a familiar spirit.
	Yeah.
	So I'm like, okay, maybe God allowed this to happen.
	Yeah.
	But I'm like, why would God allow to use something so sinful to do this?
	Because I'm like, okay, maybe it was a familiar spirit.
	There's a lot of debate on this topic.
	All I know is no matter what happened, it wasn't good.
	It led to Saul's death, and it also—we're not called to do necromancy.
	The whole thing was outside of God's— I totally agree with this, and We shouldn't do necromancy or preaching.
	Yeah, all that stuff.
	But this is an important question for the ghost hunting phenomenon.
	Because, okay, put the witch of Andorra aside.
	Christ is transfigured and he's flanked by two guys, Moses and Elijah.
	It's not them physically.
	They're not flesh and bone.
	It's their spirit.
	Ghost just means spirit.
	You wouldn't say those are familiar spirits.
	You wouldn't say those are demons.
	So at least in one example, and let's say two examples, in the Bible, ghosts do appear.
	So you could say, well, I don't think that really happens today.
	I don't think the things I was talking about.
	But for the people who are curious about this stuff, I mean, this was really a big plot point in Hamlet in the first scene of Hamlet.
	Is it really the father of Hamlet who comes back as a ghost or is it a demon?
	Or, you know, that's a big debate.
	And actually, it hinges on religious debates at the time because of the University of Wittenberg where Hamlet comes from.
	Is it, if a demon's coming to trick you or a granny is coming to warn you of something, both could be spiritually dangerous.
	But they are different.
	Right.
	And you're the expert ghost hunter.
	So you go in assuming it's always a demon.
	Well, I don't do it anymore.
	And you don't.
	Oh, he's did.
	Praise God.
	But I would say, like, I still personally don't believe that would be Granny.
	Like, what is she saying?
	What, like, they should be.
	And we also see in the story of the rich man in Lazarus.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, he's not able to come back.
	There's a big, giant chasm.
	He's like, please go warm my family.
	And so you had the prophets.
	Exactly.
	You're not allowed to.
	And to me, that also says, we can't come back.
	We, we have our chance now and we're not able to.
	cross that great divide and the only one who did that was Jesus but for me personally no matter what it is we're called not to talk to them, communicate with them.
	Yeah.
	So we do it anyway.
	A lot of people do.
	Yeah.
	Well, I thought it was okay.
	I didn't know that God said not to do that.
	I didn't know that he said to save me from necromancy and divination and witchcraft and all the things that I was partaking in.
	I thought at one point I called myself a Christian witch.
	I thought I could have both.
	Yeah.
	Tell me you haven't read the Bible without telling me you haven't read the Bible.
	You're talking about demonology.
	Have you heard of the Annabelle doll?
	I don't know anything about this.
	I just know it's somehow.
	pertains to is it it's like a demon possessed doll or so what is it yeah so it's actually been it was made famous to the big world with through the conjuring movies but it's actually a rag doll that was in possession by ed and lorraine warren they're very famous for their demonology.
	Not famous enough.
	I never heard of them.
	So what do they do?
	They're into demons?
	I think they actually worked on the Amityville horror case and the actual Annabelle conjuring case.
	They're pro-demon or anti-demon?
	Pro-demon.
	They're exorcists in that type sense, but I actually met Lorraine Warren a few times.
	So they're anti-demons, meaning they want to get the demons out.
	Okay, yeah, I guess I do.
	Okay, yeah, okay.
	All right, that makes sense.
	Okay, that's good.
	They believe they exist, but they don't like them.
	They're passed on right now.
	But they had an occult museum in Connecticut filled with relics and very dark occult items, you know, literally things that have been found in the woods with satanic rituals.
	And I have been to the museum a couple times.
	I met Lorraine a few times as well and saw Annabelle.
	as well.
	And the folklore behind this doll is that it's possessed by, I don't remember exactly, I think a little girl who's demonic or just filled with demons or rage.
	I don't remember exactly, but this rag doll has tried to kill people allegedly and has like Chucky, like it springs to life with another.
	So yeah, something I don't know.
	That didn't happen.
	was watching it and they woke up and the arms were around their neck.
	So this thing has to be kept in a lockbox.
	And the folklore behind this doll is just insane.
	And the power that people are giving this doll, really the demon in operation behind this doll.
	And it just made headlines again because a comedian, Matt Rife, I've never watched his things, but I guess he just purchased the entire occult museum in Connecticut filled with these objects, including Annabelle doll.
	And it's not the objects themselves that are haunted.
	It's the demons that are in operation behind it.
	So when people are looking at Annabelle and giving her power, like I did when I Yeah, hold on.
	Even the way you're taught, I met her.
	I know that.
	Hold on.
	Where do you talk?
	So do you buy it?
	Do you think this doll was choking someone?
	It could have been.
	I don't mean to say like I met her.
	It's like, I think that's the old way I would speak but i met the doll and the demon that's in operation with this rack and your and your gas tank dropped out of nowhere it was it was very strange like it was not like oh almost on e oh i lost gas it's not a crazy story it was literally like out of nowhere strange stuff started happening got lost gps this is back in i want to say 2011 so gps really wasn't what it used to be it was like those ones that you attached so it was leading us to out of nowhere in the middle of nowhere in the woods and
	had to find a police station to help us it was crazy after going to the museum but this comedian just purchased all these items and actually broke my heart knowing that just the lore and excitement behind this doll right now, he's in for a lot of bondage and he's coming to agreement with a lot of these things because when you give power.
	So he's into the new age stuff.
	I mean, I feel like you wouldn't make that big of a purchase without having some kind of No, I barely buy a new Oxford shirt.
	I'm such a cheap skate.
	I don't think I'd buy a demon warehouse around it.
	Right.
	And he's hoping to open it up for tours and overnight stays and stuff like that.
	And it just breaks my heart because now that's just people.
	people are so into this and they're going to come into agreement with all these beings and open themselves up for demonization and I just you know what's so strange about this too there's a Christian tradition of relic veneration that goes back to I mean it's in the Bible it's in the book of Acts with the handkerchiefs and St. Paul but it even or in 2 Maccabees though some people don't include that in the canon but but from the earliest moments from the apostolic age you know polycarp dies polycarp is buddies
	with st. ignatius of antioch who who knew john the evangelist polycarp himself might have known john the evangelist and when he dies we have immediate accounts that the Christians would venerate his bones.
	His bones.
	And this goes, you know, all throughout the Christian tradition of sometimes they'd get a little unsure of the relics.
	So I think there are presently two heads of St. Thomas Aquinas, who was a very smart guy, but he didn't have to.
	He didn't have to.
	And so there's a sense, you don't want to worship them like an idol, but there's a sense that there's a connection to the physical world and there's temples of the Holy Spirit.
	And so they kind of point you toward the God who these holy men worshipped.
	And so there are plenty of relics.
	A lot of them have left churches in the modern age.
	You think you could buy a warehouse.
	Well, you actually can't buy relics, but you're not supposed to buy relics.
	But you could come to a reliquary of holy men.
	Why would you buy the demonic one?
	If there are two kinds of relics you can buy, why?
	And you say, hey, here's a really good one and here's a really bad one.
	Why do you say, I want the bad one with the ragdoll that's going to strangle me in my sleep?
	Yeah.
	Well, because it's cool.
	Because people are really into the horror and all this stuff.
	People don't think that stuff is real.
	They might just think like, oh, this is just awesome.
	It's really just like it's dark.
	It's cool.
	It's just different.
	You know, it's kind of like all those horror conventions I used to go.
	to, it's just you think you're different, but you're not.
	Yeah.
	It's just part of the kind of the all the same.
	And it's, oh, it's outside of the normal stuff, but not realizing you're just taking part in something that's being normalized.
	Everyone thinks it's cool now.
	Everyone has a ghost story.
	Everyone likes to go on these tours and we're spiritual beings.
	And so we're going to have our curiosity picked and people want to believe in something outside of the natural.
	And I'm sure it's a great investment to wanting to turn it into something that people can come and you own something.
	It's a very popular doll made famous by horror movies now.
	And unfortunately there's so much um ramifications that are going to come with that that Yeah, I don't know.
	I'd probably just buy an index fund.
	You know, if I'm trying, I get the ROI might be marginally higher on the Demon Doll Museum.
	Yeah.
	But I don't know, man.
	I don't like ESG, but like Vanguard and State Street are probably safer investments, even with all their problems.
	I don't know.
	I know nothing.
	Yeah.
	I 100% agree.
	And I just, I. I actually tried to make a video recently and social media would not let me upload it for some reason, trying to talk to Matt Rife saying, please, anybody that has these objects, please burn them, get rid of them in turn to Jesus.
	I'm just like urging him, I just, I hope he would just wake up and understand that the spiritual weight of this is not going to be something that anybody can carry.
	And I hope he just repents and turns to Jesus.
	So you're a Christian witch.
	You're now doing film work on ghosts.
	Yeah.
	And you're getting this footage that...
	So what are you doing with that knowledge?
	Why is that spiritually dangerous?
	Why is that spiritually dangerous now looking back is because one, God calls us to stay away from it.
	And when you're operating in divination or witchcraft, you're seeking knowledge or power outside of God's knowledge and power.
	You're in a spirit of rebellion.
	You're rebelling against God's word.
	I have to believe that God tells me to stay away from something for a good reason, that he has a good will for me and he has a good design for everything.
	And then when I step outside of that, it leads to death.
	It does.
	It really does lead to spiritual death.
	It leads to bondage.
	It leads to chains.
	It leads to just demonic oppression.
	And what I do with.
	that knowledge now is right now I want to just share my story, but back then I really wanted to kind of show the world that there is a light, there is life beyond the physical realm.
	There's something else out there.
	Maybe we don't know what it is, but let's maybe there's something that can bring us together or open us up spiritually.
	I just kind of wanted this enlightenment and I think healing above all else as well.
	Yeah.
	This to me is the good that can come out of the bad thing.
	Or, you know, to use the example of the Witch of Endor, you know, it's a very bad thing that happens, but God turns all things to good.
	Is even, it's not a recommendation of practicing necromancy.
	But there are people who are hardcore atheist materialists who say none of this is real.
	And then they're convinced not that God exists, but that a demon exists, or alternately that a ghost exists.
	But if ghosts exist, that means that something non-physical exists.
	And if demons exist, that probably means that God exists too.
	And there's this kind of bizarre backdoor where people are interested in the occult and the paranormal.
	often it leads them to perdition, but sometimes it can lead them back to the right path.
	So you say this is terrible and you had all this demonic oppression and everything, but how so?
	You're at the insane asylum.
	You're getting the audio recordings.
	It's quirky.
	It's weird.
	It's interesting.
	You feel very special.
	You feel you have this gift, this feminine witchy touch to mollify the demons.
	And okay, then what?
	How does it go south?
	It doesn't seem that bad at that moment.
	Yeah, it doesn't seem that bad.
	I just want to say about that atheist kind of opening their mind, that was my husband.
	He was a full-blown atheist.
	Nothing happens in a spiritual realm.
	Meeting me and having me witness what I went through, he's like, well, she's not lying.
	she's not a liar, it kind of opened himself up to the spiritual world as well.
	And now we're both saved.
	hallelujah, but how does that...
	Yeah, so okay, we get to the point where you're recording these, you know, smacks and screams in the insane asylum.
	But at that point, I don't know if it just remained at that point.
	Is that, is there really any impetus for you to give it up?
	Right.
	Definitely.
	Because the longer I stayed in, the longer I was involved with these things, the darker experiences I had.
	So it was really fun in the beginning.
	And I was doing this for over a decade.
	It was really fun in the beginning, just kind of, wow, I can't believe I'm capturing this evidence.
	I'm making contact.
	I can't believe I'm growing in my psychic abilities.
	I'm able to travel the country, see different places.
	This is amazing.
	And make friends.
	And wow, I'm on a TV show.
	Wow, this is crazy.
	But it slowly got more dark and dark and dark.
	And because I was opening myself up in different ways with these investigations where I would do different spells and rituals to open up the investigation.
	I would light candles.
	I would do what we call a pendulum session.
	in witchcraft there's these It's kind of like a ball and chain type thing.
	It's a pendulum on the bottom of a chain and kind of like a Ouija board mat with letters and numbers and yes or no on there.
	And you would ask questions like, all right, we're here.
	I'm please talk to me.
	Are you ready to talk with us?
	And it would literally point to different things.
	And I wouldn't, there's no way I could really manipulate it without it really shaking.
	And this thing would point to yes, point to no, spell out names.
	And we would start investigations that way.
	And I, this is, it's not just that, you know, your hand shook or something.
	And you're saying you're seeing the ball on the chain defy gravity.
	Yeah, it would stay tight and then it would just go like that.
	Yeah, these things that it's like literally in my hand, I know I'm being stable and it's operating outside of my own control.
	And I would tell.
	these spirits, these beings, I would say, okay, you can use my body.
	You can use my energy, talk through me, use whatever you need to pull from me to manifest yourself.
	Looking back, that's literally insane and so dangerous, but I was literally inviting these things into my life, my spirit, my soul, just to—I was coming into agreement with it all, and I was asking them to manifest themselves, and they would.
	So you'd start—or— Sometimes they would speak through me.
	That happened once.
	I channeled somebody.
	I don't know who, I don't really remember.
	It's a little, it's about 13 years ago at this point and I try to forget some of these things but I remember speaking through and I didn't have control over my voice and I remember looking at the people that I was with and I'm like I was just saying things and I don't know what I was saying and they were they had to like get me out of the house to snap me out of it because my body started to lock up I started to not be able to like feel things it was it was weird i was kind of in my body but i wasn't i didn't have control over my motor skills or what i was speaking or
	seeing it was really horrifying very scary and the worst experience i think was when i was filming for my show i ended up through my paranormalmal journey, I became a co-host for my own paranormal show, helping people overcome great fear with their crazy demonic activity that they have in their homes.
	We were in a house down in Georgia, which was experiencing a lot of dark activity.
	The guy was involved in, I think, masonry, some kind of occult or secret society, and Yeah, I think so.
	It might have been a different one.
	I'm not too sure, but he also was, his grandmother was a practice of black magic.
	She put hexes on people, a lot of witchcraft.
	And every time I stepped on this property, I got weird.
	Like I just, I was dizzy and I was not myself.
	I became paranoid.
	I thought, oh my goodness, like we had a guest psychic come on and I was like, they're auditioning someone else to take my place.
	And it's just really, it wasn't me.
	And I just was thinking these crazy thoughts.
	No one likes me.
	And I don't know what it was.
	Well, I know now what it was.
	But we were in the back woods.
	back woods of Georgia at nighttime.
	We're filming and I look behind my co-host and we're in the woods and I see between him what I can only describe as like a goblin face seething and just staring at me for like a split second.
	It just appeared almost as if it wanted to get me.
	And I jumped back and that image is really seared into my mind forever.
	And this thing just wouldn't leave me alone.
	It started changing forms and became this giant tar being.
	It sounds crazy talking about it now, but it changed and multiplied into these eight to ten foot tar beings that would then follow me around my house.
	as I'm walking around and trying to sleep, I would see these beings.
	You'd see them.
	I would not just sort of feel their presence.
	You'd see them.
	And it was kind of, I would see it both sometimes with my own eyes and sometimes what they would call like in your mind's eye.
	Back then I would say your third eye, but I don't know how to describe it.
	It was very like in between the physical and spiritual realm I'd be able to see them and they'd be hovering over my things and grinning at me and really very taunting me.
	And almost kind of like, I got you.
	I'm watching you.
	And just wait.
	They would communicate with me almost telepathically in a sense.
	They don't have bodies.
	Yeah, they can do whatever they want.
	And these things just wouldn't let up.
	And it just kept getting worse and worse right up until I got saved, which was about five years ago.
	So you say you developed your psychic abilities.
	How so?
	What's Psychic 305 compared to Psychic 101?
	Yeah, so I would actually, I had books psychic for beginners.
	Like how to enhance your psychic abilities and in that kind of witchcraft world, there's different stones you can have to enhance those abilities.
	I believe amethyst was one of them.
	And I had just actually got an amethyst ring from my, I think it was my 21st birthday in March.
	your concentration, your intellect, your energy, and just the desire itself of wanting to enhance these abilities is going to enhance them.
	Yeah, it was some wild stuff I would read.
	the more...
	I guess that makes sense though.
	Yeah.
	'Cause you know, it's like when, This is very important because it shows you that there is a physical aspect to faith.
	But it is her faith that is really taking precedence over the physicality matters.
	In the book of Acts, when people are touching handkerchiefs to St. Paul and sending it out to, there is a physical aspect, obviously, because it's an incarnational and sacramental faith.
	But it's not like a magic handkerchief.
	Right.
	It's not the object itself.
	It's the faith of the person that is, you're chasing after it.
	Like I literally have the woman.
	touching the hem of the garment in my head.
	I'm blessed enough to be able to lead worship at my church.
	And even on my worst days, I'm like, man, this is going to be really really hard, but if I can just get there and just get up on there and just touch the hem of his garment, I know it's going to be okay.
	And I've had so many of those moments where just having the faith has helped me overcome, but it was also in the, when I was in the darkness as well, just having the faith that, oh, I am going to grow into these psychic abilities.
	And I believe it's going to.
	I think your belief is very important, whether it's.
	wherever it's placed.
	And Henry Ford talks about whether you think you can or you can't, you're right.
	And I used to really believe that as well.
	And I'm like, okay, no, I am a psychic.
	I can do this.
	I can do this.
	And I got what I wanted.
	So did you at any point, I know you're kind of down the rabbit hole at this point.
	You're doing the weird pendulum thing and you're pretty in it.
	But when the giant tar beings are following you around, did you ever think, huh, this isn't great.
	Maybe I should get out of this?
	Well, I definitely didn't think it was great, but at that time, I And I would call them demons at the time.
	I was actually very into demonology, flirted with satanism at one point oh yeah like at one point i found myself agreeing with aleister crowley and his teachings and like that's kind of weird maybe i should be aleister crowley is one of the founders of modern satanism yeah isn't he the one who said that the the first and only commandment is do what thou wilt yeah literally literally what satan say what he does say it's also that's also the the chief claim of of liberalism yeah political liberalism just do whatever you
	want yeah it doesn't hurt anybody doesn't matter it's not of your choice yeah and i was one of those people i was a full-on like liberal feminist vegan witch all these things doing doing whatever because I didn't care I didn't think that anything mattered and it's funny when you don't think anything mattered but I wanted to make contact with something beyond this physical realm but I just I was like okay I'm just gonna do whatever drugs I want I'm just going to drink I'm gonna sleep around I'm gonna do whatever I want because it feels good.
	And life is about feeling good and being happy and all these things until it doesn't, until you have to wake up one morning and really face the fact that.
	This isn't making me happy.
	It's actually causing a lot of damage to myself.
	Even if I have stable relationships around me, I'm not stable.
	I'm hurting.
	I'm in pain.
	And these crystals aren't working anymore.
	The saging, you know, lighting sage and thinking that's going to get these tar beans away, that's not working.
	The hypnotisms, the law of attraction, the vision boards, the manifestations, all of these things that were working for a little while, they stopped working.
	They were working in what sense?
	So I totally thought I manifested myself at Travel Channel show.
	Huh.
	Yeah, because I was visualizing it and I was going through kind of interviews at that point.
	They're not so much auditions because it wasn't fiction, but it I was like, wow, I manifested this.
	I saw myself doing this and I manifested my husband.
	I manifested this and not realizing that I didn't do any of that.
	So, and manifesting for people who are not millennial white women watching this is it's like praying to God except it's just praying to yourself basically.
	You're praying to the universe.
	The universe.
	So you kind of some, I think some people believe different things.
	I had the personal belief that the universe, oh my goodness, it's so, it's hard to talk in this sense going back in this verbiage, but I used to think that the universe was.
	was it had your back it wants to bless you it wants to give you whatever you want you just have to align yourself right now with the version of you that has those things you have to start thinking money thoughts you have to think if it's to be rich you have to think like a rich person you have to think like this person you have to visualize it it's exhausting it's works you gotta write things down that you're already thankful for it you have to meditate five minutes a day you gotta do all these things you gotta do do do do do all these works and it was exhausting and
	i was doing until the moment i got saved in the moment that I started following Jesus.
	It was like all that load, that weight, that burden that I had to do all these things to raise my vibration, to access my higher self, to be the best version of me.
	Because that's all kind of Pelagian, right?
	The Pelagian heritesy, the notion that you can save yourself, that you do it through your own will and you don't necessarily need God's grace.
	You say that the view is that the universe is going to bless you, but then you end up having to do all these things and it doesn't exactly work.
	Whereas Christianity says, it's not that there's no role for you to do stuff.
	You have to cooperate with God's grace, but it's that God's grace comes first.
	God's grace really does it all.
	You're trying to, you think you've manifested the travel channel show.
	Many such cases, I think, in Hollywood, you know, we call it Gomorrah by the Sea around here.
	Oh, yeah.
	And so you've got everything you want.
	You got a TV show.
	That's pretty cool.
	But you were miserable.
	Miserable because I was experiencing so much dark activity.
	You know, these things would be with me in my hotel room, messing with me.
	And literally I'd be pushed and scratched and pinched and just really taunted and tormented.
	And I was just riddled with fear all the time, and my health was strong.
	That led me deeper into the witchcraft part of it and all that paranormal nonsense.
	But I was really hurting.
	And I thought that crystals and the law of attraction, that was like, okay, maybe it's not the deep witchcraft.
	Maybe it's this good, the good magic, the light magic.
	I thought there was a difference between maybe So you were seeing the weird tar beings and the ghoulish gobliny faces.
	Do you ever see anything now?
	Do you see anything in the same way that you would have seen something then?
	Or no?
	Has that mist evaporated?
	It really stopped in that sense after I came to the Lord.
	But I can, sometimes I can see darkness on people.
	I've seen that tarness in people.
	Before I got saved, I was dealing with someone who was under the influence of alcohol and kind of this big fit of rage.
	and I looked into his eyes and I could see that same tar in his eyes and i could just see it kind of wrapped in his body.
	And you mean physically, like you'd see tar going down his earth?
	It's that like.
	Kind of like, it's almost like this flash, an image in my head.
	I'm like, oh, that's what he's struggling with it's very dark he has darkness in him and i can see it in his eyes i can still see things like that i can't just straight up see demons like i i used to or other beings so i think satan also yeah it's very good um he gives you kind of the perverted gifts of the spirit where he allows you to i don't know see different things and beings and i now i have i feel like what's proper with get to discernment or
	being able to see in the spiritual realm sometimes.
	I can see what people are struggling with sometimes.
	The Lord allows me to just have a quick image in my head sometimes, you know.
	Yeah, yeah, those gifts are quite different, I suppose, in that you might not be able to see like squinty goblins, but you might be given patience or something.
	You know, I'll take patience over goblin vision in a week.
	Yeah, yeah, because that stuff really, I talk about it a lot with coming out of it.
	There's a lot of PTSD that came with coming out of paranormal in the new age because of all the stuff that I saw, I didn't know how to handle it and I didn't know.
	It just kind of like it shakes you because I'm like, how can I, first of all, I could never go to a therapist and talk to them about the goblins that I saw or the demons, these tar beings, they would look at me like I'm crazy.
	Because I'm like, they're not going to understand.
	Like, I need a spiritual people, not everybody at church understands these things.
	Did you ever wonder if you just had a screw loose and you needed some Prozac or something?
	That would probably hit me.
	I'm like, am I really seeing these things?
	I'm like, but I got people confirming things with equipment and all these different things.
	I'm like, okay, but I just, it was wild and I just, it was, it was really scary.
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	We're going to expressvpn.com slash Michael, letter Y, letter T. At this point, do you still think you're talking to ghosts, meaning, you know, generally at the battlefield?
	Or at this point, are you more aware that you're speaking to demons?
	I think in my beginning of my paranormal journey, I thought it there was just people that have lived and died and that ghosts or demons at that was the beginning and then as i progressed i knew there could be at that point i thought there could be so much more that we could be speaking with it could be an alien it could be an angelic being from a different dimension possibly a what we would call cryptozoology is talking to bigfoot or
	some type of different dimensional beings that i would think demons people that have lived on and just spiritual entities even elemental energy where animals all the other that type of stuff as well so i thought you could really communicate with so many different things, even living people as well.
	Yeah, the funniest part is people make fun of Christians because we pray to God and to a man who is God, Christ.
	And depending on your background and your denomination or, you know, Christian tradition, you could venerate saints or the Blessed Mother, something like that.
	And they make fun of us for all this.
	Or you could, you could, ancient Christian practice of venerating relics.
	People say that's so crazy.
	It's the craziest thing.
	Yeah, well, we ain't praying to Bigfoot, you know, we ain't praying to like a big crypto-zoo dog alien or something.
	But all the really fancy modern libs, they're doing that.
	stuff and they call us nuts well i literally was that person i was that person so it's so crazy to to speak on this from the other side where i was i thought christianity was just this box of rules just to keep us down it's a man-made religion and it wants to cut us off from our tapping into our own godlike abilities and we have to tap into that ourselves and I was like, look at mass.
	They're literally doing witchcraft on the altar.
	I'm like, I would think that.
	Yeah, as a witch, I'm like, yep, see, they have their chalice and all these things.
	They have their magic.
	Well, you know, even that phrase.
	Invert it.
	Yes, yes, no, even, you know, the black mass is a mockery of the old man.
	And even this phrase hocus pocus, I believe the etymology of that is that it's a mockery of hocus enum corpus meus, this is my body, which is the holy words of the consecration.
	I think hocus pocus is a mockery of that.
	A lot of things they love to mock, they love to mock, and that's why the only thing they listen to and obey is the name of Jesus.
	They literally it stifles them.
	And as we know in the spiritual realm, they're very legalistic.
	And so the moment that you use that authority of Jesus, they shut up.
	They are under.
	And, you know, I mean, they're not greater than God.
	And that's not going to work for them.
	So I guess that's my question then.
	You're in all this craziness and you're praying to Bigfoot and doing all this weird stuff.
	And do you ever, does your early Christian life ever return to you and say, huh, I've tried every single thing I can possibly do from the sage to the pendula to the whatever.
	Shall I perhaps pray to God?
	Might that do something for me?
	Never even.
	I shouldn't laugh at it.
	Oh, no, but when you really look back, it never even crossed my mind because I just thought that's just man-made religion.
	It's a set of rules, and there's no guy in the sky, but maybe just pray to the sky.
	Yeah, I don't.
	It all seemed so normal at the time.
	It did.
	It felt very, how do I put it, just mystical and wild, and it felt really ancient.
	I remember visiting Ireland where my family's from, and I really wanted to go to a summer festival.
	i forget which one it was but i was like i really want to get in touch with my pagan roots and like i want to reject all that and get in touch with that and it just, I think we are spiritual beings.
	Obviously, God made us that way.
	And we're constantly craving spiritual experiences because we're meant to communicate spiritually with our creator.
	That's how he made us.
	And we're going to be searching everywhere we can because we're very distracted, curious beings.
	He made us very curious with free will.
	It just depends on what you do with that free will, whether it's going to lead you down darkness and destruction or it's going to lead you to life and freedom.
	with Jesus.
	It's funny that people have this sense.
	You're not the only one I've heard express it.
	We say, oh, I want to get back to the true old religion.
	There's a fascination in the West, especially in the 60s and 70s with Eastern religion.
	You know, there's a phrase in the Northeast, the Jubu, which is some lady who's like probably reformed secular Jew who doesn't take that religion seriously at all, but she's really into like yoga or whatever.
	So it's the Buddhist, the Jubu.
	And but it's all sorts of people like this.
	And you think, okay, I want to get back to my Druidic Irish pagan roots.
	And then does it ever occur to you, you know, they all converted.
	Right.
	Because St. Patrick worked miracles in front of them.
	Right.
	No, my God.
	Her religion.
	God loved my father.
	He's born again Christian.
	And he was praying for me that whole time.
	We tried to have conversations.
	And I was living during all this.
	I was also living with my grandparents at the time as well.
	And just, this is after my parents' divorce, that also caused a lot of hurt.
	So I was seeking just a lot of trauma.
	People that go through trauma, we're trying to heal.
	We're seeking just anything we can to feel good, whether it's drugs, alcohol, crystals, talking to ghosts.
	But my dad never stopped praying for me and trying to talk to me, but it just fell on.
	deaf ears.
	I just, I didn't want to hear it.
	And it wasn't until like right, obviously right before I got saved, it was the lockdowns and COVID and just everything that was going on in 2020, I was experiencing extreme anxiety and everything that I was listening to, like the liberal media, all these different things, all the protests happening, like, I can't get by this stuff.
	I just, I don't agree.
	I'm like, but I don't believe in Jesus.
	I like, okay, let me just try to sage myself.
	Let me just try to visualize this.
	And while I know I didn't manifest having to cancel my wedding this October, like I didn't manifest any of this stuff.
	I had all these hopes and dreams and everything stopped working.
	And I felt the Lord calling me.
	I was just like, what?
	I just felt led to watch an Easter service.
	I had flirted with going to church throughout my time in the paranormal, just over the course of maybe like five, six years.
	I was back and forth going to church, but I always felt really filthy and unworthy because I didn't understand grace and forgiveness and that if I just repented and asked him forgive my sins, I would have been washed clean.
	The enemy really lied to me.
	It's like, you're not, you don't belong here.
	You're too disgusting.
	If they only knew all the partying you did and what you were doing.
	So I fell away very quickly.
	This is the thing.
	I've gone to confession 100 billion times.
	And even still, when I'm in the confession line, when I'm driving up and I go into the confession line, I feel the sense of I can't.
	Can I really be forgiven for this?
	And it's this trick that the devil plays, which is right before you sin, he tells you it's no big deal.
	It's really not.
	It's barely even a sin.
	Don't worry about it.
	It's no big deal.
	And then the second you do it, he says you'll never be forgiven.
	This is so horrible.
	You can never, and the closer you get to confessing your sins to god please can you say ego te absolvo you know i i absolve you of your sins spirit real spiritual authority given by christ the closer you get to that you it's you can feel like you're all you're all being pulled away from it no you know is that's the it's the last gasp of it yeah and i felt that right up into the moment of getting saved where you know content i started watching was turned more conservative like okay Everyone's talking about Jesus.
	What is up with this Jesus guy?
	Maybe I should look into this.
	And so I started talking to my dad and my stepmother and, you know, they've done mission work and my husband and I would literally just have four hour long conversations.
	Just, okay, why Jesus?
	Why only Jesus?
	Why can't I also have like an altar?
	Why can't I do tarot cards?
	And I love my spiritual stuff.
	I love my crystals and wands and all these things.
	And they were just so gracious.
	They spoke the truth and love.
	They were bold about it.
	They were loving about it.
	And they were just, they'd ministered to us and just really told us the truth.
	And so I don't even know the exact date, but the moment I realized my sin, I understood that everything I had been doing for so long was just.
	It was sin.
	It was an abomination that God detested it.
	And it wasn't that I felt that he hated me or anything.
	It was just, oh my goodness, I can't believe I was doing this and just the weight of all that came on me and I'm like Lord save me I'm sorry I repent for all of this I want to follow you now it was all that burden it lifted off of me and he just brought me to such freedom and I threw all of those things all of the occult items the paranormal equipment the crystals the wands the cauldron the herbs the tarot cards everything every self-help book and
	crazy alien stuff I threw it all away Just that they didn't act the Axe Church.
	They got rid of all their occult items and whatnot.
	And I just said, Lord, you have my life now.
	Three things hit me about that.
	One, this is a.
	girl who's burning sage to get the eight foot tall tar beings away from her.
	And you thought that was normal, but Dr. Fauci was a bridge too far that shows you how crazy the public response during COVID was it was so nuts that even when you are praying to the Yeti, you say, hold on, these guys are really wacky.
	Okay, so that's the first thing.
	The second thing, you're recognizing what St. Paul is writing in Romans, which is that the law comes, not really to save you and say you can't really save you, but it does show you your sin.
	It's not that the law is false.
	It's not that, yeah, but it just reflects your sin.
	So you see that, and then you see your need for a savior.
	And then all these little doodads, all the cauldrons and whatever and all, you say, okay, it's all bunk.
	You just toss all of it away.
	Overnight?
	Pretty much, I think within two weeks.
	I didn't realize I wasn't using them anymore.
	But I literally, I think I cried for about two weeks just, oh my gosh, Lord, I love you so much.
	Thank you.
	I'm so sorry.
	just being in his presence and understanding everything that I had done.
	It was just really, I cried for two weeks.
	And then once I understood, I'm like, okay, this isn't my life.
	anymore.
	I don't identify with these things anymore.
	They are not.
	I don't want to give the enemy a foothold in my life, any open door in my life to come in and I'm out of agreement with these things, so I get rid of them.
	I don't want to have anything to do with the evil works of Dr. Johnson.
	Now, speaking of this open door, I want to talk about something you mentioned just a little bit earlier, but it ties in exactly to this.
	Yep.
	You mentioned Freemasonry.
	Now, Freemasonry has played a big role in not just American politics since the founding, but all over the continent.
	It's been a big part of modernity.
	And the Freemasons will say that it goes all the way back to Solomon's temple.
	But, you know, there are a lot of stories about these clubs.
	In America, I'm buddies with some Masons.
	They're very nice guys, and they just think of it as a social club.
	In America, more so than in continental Europe, it is kind of a social club.
	And yet, at least for me, I'm a mackerel snapping papist.
	The Catholic Church says you cannot be a Freemason.
	In fact, you would automatically be excommunicated.
	It is that Freemasonry is incompatible with the Christian faith.
	In a way that when I mention this to friends of mine who have been involved in masonry, they say, that's crazy.
	That's totally, I don't, why is that?
	So why is that?
	Why were you seeing a mason connection in some of these weird demon ghost houses.
	I'm not an expert.
	I don't want to claim to be, but from just from what I've gathered, you're making an oath in secret.
	And when you're coming, I know the Bible talks about not, don't make oaths, especially in secret as well, because what is ever done in secret will come to light.
	But my only oath is to Jesus and God.
	And that's all I can really say on that.
	But I know that some people may follow the Bible or whatnot.
	There might be other hidden deeds of darkness.
	I am not at liberty to even go down that path.
	I'm not an expert on that.
	So I don't want to go down a field that I don't.
	I'm not an expert.
	That's never stopped me before.
	You know, you made me think of one of the explanations when you said, why Jesus?
	Why only Jesus?
	And this, I think, really, beyond all the conspiracies and the French Revolution and all the kind of thoughts about this, this gets to the heart of it, which is that, as I understand it, I don't know anything about Freemasonry, but as I understand it, it posits a kind of naturalistic religion.
	It says, as long as you believe in an abstract supreme being, then you're good and you're all kind of on an even footing and it has its own rituals.
	I mean, you mentioned that the occult is kind of a mockery of the Christian sacrament.
	Yeah.
	So it has its own kind of initiation, its own kind of baptism.
	It has its own funeral rites.
	It has its own altars.
	It has its own feast days.
	That it is, whatever else you want to say about it, it fulfills a lot of the criteria of religions.
	Right, almost like a vegan.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, I've seen...
	way out, way out west, like almost the very corner of it.
	I was in a Masonic lodge and we were able to go into the temple.
	Were you ghost hunting there?
	Ghost hunting.
	So, just doing all the things and we were able to go inside and we didn't do a lot of, I don't think, like readings or stuff in there, but I was able to just...
	Nice doesn't get you to heaven.
	Christ does.
	I thought you just had to be a good person, but then what is good?
	Who defines what is good?
	That's kind of this problem we have in the world right now is the moral relativism where, well, I get to define what is good.
	And you see this with pro-life arguments, with everything out in the world right now, like whatever, I'm a good person, but it's very arbitrary.
	And they, everyone else gets to decide it.
	And I thought we could all decide our own morals and what is good.
	And so when we're left to our own standard, it's like, it's going to vary and it's all going to fall short.
	And that's why God and Jesus is the only standard.
	At any point before you return to faith, at any point when you're seeing the tar beings and you're hearing the voices and you're depressed and you're suicidal even, do you talk to anyone about this?
	Oh yeah, definitely.
	I mean, like my husband, my fiancé at the time, well, boyfriend, fiancé, husband now, talk to him about it all.
	But he, like I said, he was coming out of atheism, so he didn't know what to make of all of it.
	Believe it or not, the paranormal world is a very big community.
	It's deep, and especially now with the programming you see on TV, there's entire channels that are dedicated to paranormal programming.
	There's events, there's conventions, there's local ghost hunts, there's local ghost tours.
	I'm sure like a lot of historic cities, especially where I'm from, Boston area, I hosted them myself during the Halloween season, especially which we would call the paranormal Christmas because it was a very big thing, a lot of events.
	We would host things at haunted locations and bring people along.
	It was a fun thing for people to do.
	But yeah, I just it's it has such a foothold on people and people are just so curious about it.
	Everyone has a ghost story.
	Like we were, I think we were.
	i think we were everyone has a ghost story yeah and that's you think they're all just seeing demons i think they could largely be seeing demons i guess i just i do think ghosts can be real in principle i kind of agree i think there's more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy horatio not the yetis or the ets right but i do think that there's such you know it's just spirits what do you make of the the alien stuff I personally think that is a demonic agenda.
	I think they're coming as aliens.
	And because I think that's the one thing that could unite humanity is a threat outside of what's on this planet and I think there's been different projects maybe talked about like Project Blue Beam is something.
	What's that?
	I don't know anything about it.
	I believe I don't know.
	I've heard it talk about like where that could be a false flag having to do with aliens, probably drones or something.
	But I think the End Times also talks about just a lot of, I'm not an expert on the End Times as well.
	Who is?
	I know.
	I have a priest friend who says, a sure sign of madness is when someone tells you he totally understands the book of the apocalypse.
	That's a guaranteed sign of madness.
	I'm just like, I just love God and I'm following him and I'm like, no one's going to know until it happens and we can all have theories.
	whatnot, but there's some things that you have to agree on, and there's other things that are just secondary, and they're very interesting, and I'm not a biblical scholar, agree.
	I think the alien thing is a total psyop and I think it is usually a sign that someone is at least entertaining New Age mysticism and Gnosticism and or at the very least is not to not not Yeah, I was very much into aliens at one point.
	I thought I was a star seed.
	So basically it's the belief that you are a being from a different planetary system.
	There's different types that you're sent.
	This is right before I got saved.
	So I didn't believe this the whole time.
	But that's how far I had fallen before.
	God was just like, nope.
	Do you think you're from another galaxy?
	Yeah.
	It's the belief that you have come from.
	There's different names for the galaxies.
	I thought I was a Pleiadian or something like that.
	You struck me.
	Is it like a quarter Pleiadian, a quarter Italian?
	I get that a lot actually.
	But I came from this other dimension to help humanity reach the next dimension.
	I got into a lot of alien stuff right before I got saved.
	Talk about like these blue avians, these different, there's different types of aliens.
	What's a blue avian?
	Apparently, it's a type of alien that's really big and blue and kind of has a bird beak and they communicate with people and tell them things telepathically.
	I was following a lot of people in that realm and kind of, I don't know what you would call it, very new agey, very, I don't really know the term for it, but they were into a lot of new age and talking about the earth going from a third dimension to the fifth dimension.
	So we all have to collectively agree and meditate and raise the vibrations.
	Yeah, those vibrations, man.
	Yeah.
	They're not high enough., you know.
	One thing I notice about a number of people, also many of them are very nice.
	I find that we're speaking of, you know, the Freemasons are very nice.
	They're nice in kind of like a normal way.
	And these guys are nice in a really weird way.
	But they are.
	A lot of the new agey guys, they're really kind of sweet a lot of the time.
	But something that I find unites all of them, they all just coincidentally seem to be saving the world.
	You ever notice that?
	Yeah.
	Oh yeah, it sells books too.
	I don't think I'm saving the world.
	No.
	I hope I'm cooperating with God's grace in a way that is in any way appropriate.
	I hope I am.
	And a lot of times I'm not, but I'm not.
	I'm sure I can save in the world.
	Thank God we're not, because that's, there's a reason.
	The world would not fare very well.
	Yeah, same.
	And there's a reason that the Lord said, like Jesus tells us to take on his yoke.
	It's easy and his burden is light.
	Yeah.
	The burdens of this world are so heavy.
	And I know that even just in my everyday life, if I'm not constantly giving up those burdens and laying them at his feet, I start to feel the weight and I crumble.
	And before I got saved, I felt the burden of having to save the world, whether it was through being vegan, being the best feminist I could be, being as whatever checkbox identity I could be, but also having to save the world, getting into a lot of these ideologies that we have to band together and save the world and we got to overcome darkness.
	You know, I've never put that together, but that, even though I just articulated this idea unknowingly, that is what unites.
	the veganism, the climate change hysteria, the hardcore feminists, they're all the communists, they're all trying to liberate the save humanity from the sun monster or liberate women from the false consciousness or liberate the proletariat from the shackles of their oppression or liberate free, free, save, save.
	And it's all the same, even the new agey people trying to raise the vibrations on the lay lines or whatever.
	It's all about saving the world.
	But then they also say nothing matters.
	And they're also nihilists.
	So I'm like, wait, so who are you trying to save the world for?
	Exactly.
	You mentioned self-help books.
	Yeah.
	You threw out your goblets and your cauldrons and your crystals and your sage and your self-help books.
	Yeah.
	Now, a lot of people are going to be listening.
	They're going to say, well, I don't have any goblets.
	Maybe I have like a Waterford Crystal sniffer or something.
	But I don't have any sage other than for the pork.
	I don't have any.
	But I do have a lot of self-help books.
	What's wrong with that?
	I think it depends.
	Mine were very new agey, but I think I couldn't help myself because the self, I'm the problem.
	I'm the problem.
	How am I going to help myself?
	To quote Miley Cyrus, it's me.
	I'm the problem.
	It's me.
	Is that Miley?
	It's me, Taylor.
	Taylor, okay.
	I don't listen to them.
	But yeah, I'm, I can't get myself out of this.
	And my help comes from the Lord.
	My strength comes from the Lord.
	And the best self-help book, Bible.
	Yeah, of course.
	I've gotten, like, it's unbelievable.
	It's because his word is alive.
	It's breathing.
	It's, it's.
	I just love it so much.
	He's just done so much for me and he's just revealed, it convicts me all the ways that like I do need to change.
	And like, yes, there is responsibility on my part.
	I do work out my salvation.
	I do sanctification is a process and whatnot, but I can rest in him and know that he's going to lead me on the right path.
	And it's more than any self-help book can ever do for me or that I could pay any self-help guru to go to their conferences to buy their next book because, oh, they have the next best answer.
	Oh, this is the next best thing you have to do.
	And it's just this, like this treadmill of just constantly buying books and going to seminars and all these things and you just get nowhere.
	You get nowhere.
	You're not, you're just treading on a treadmill and you're not actually running the good race.
	You ever noticed that the most miserable people you ever met in your whole life have the largest collection of self-help books?
	You as well.
	That was me.
	Yeah.
	But then people would say, well, yeah, they're miserable.
	That's why they're buying all the self-help books.
	But I said, well, it's like the guy who goes to therapy for 40 years and only gets worse.
	You say, maybe get a new therapist.
	I don't know.
	Yeah.
	Maybe talk to someone else.
	Maybe like nothing wrong with going to talk to somebody, but.
	Where's the change?
	Even like you could be going to church for so long.
	Yeah.
	You're still the same person.
	You're still not operating in kindness and love.
	You're still living in the flesh.
	You're not repentant.
	You're not the same person Monday through Saturday as you are on Sunday.
	So like it kind of doesn't matter who you are, whether you're in church or not.
	It's just what's the fruit of your life?
	Are you living with the fruits of the Spirit?
	Like that you'll be shown by your works, shown by your fruit of your life.
	Of course, of course.
	I mean, this is when I was mentioning confession earlier, when you go in, a requirement of the sacrament is you have to be sincerely repentant and with the authority to loosen, to bind, you know, to forgive sins and to retain sins.
	The priest can say, hey, are you serious?
	Are you actually going to, do you actually have a firm resolve not to commit that sin anymore?
	Because if not, I can't forgive you.
	I just can't do it.
	It's not going to do anything.
	If you're not, as St. Paul writes, if you're not discerning the body, and actually the early Christian writers write this too, if you're not, then it's, if you're just kind of going through the motions, that's not going to work.
	Like a toddler, I'm sure you can understand as a father just like, I'm sorry.
	They're just doing things just to do it.
	Or like your siblings, you're just saying sorry just to say you're sorry, but are you really sorry?
	It's why God doesn't look at our works.
	Our works are like filthy rags to him.
	That's why you can't save yourself.
	There's nothing you can do to get into heaven.
	That's why, for by grace, we are saved.
	And the moment that, like, nothing I could do to get me into heaven, it's the heart.
	It's faith.
	And it's God looks at your heart and he sees that.
	There's also a parallel would be the perpetual sacrifice on the altar, you know, of Christ's perpetual sacrifice, which for modern people is very difficult to grasp.
	But the sacrifice on the cross is eternal.
	That's an eternal act.
	And it's not like it just happened once.
	and I mean, Christ does conquer death once, but it's perpetual in the sense that And Christ wills, his will is that sacrifice eternally.
	And so like, if you're not discerning that, participating in that.
	If you're just like walking through a door and maybe kneeling and maybe, then you're going to have a hard time.
	And now go down about 50,000 rungs to, you know, I am happy and you can too by Johnny.
	And, you know, and you read these stupid books.
	And I would disagree.
	that only the Bible is a self-help book in the sense, and maybe that's not the claim you're making, but there is a sense that there are derivative works from the Bible that are good.
	There is like good Christian self-help.
	This great Christian author is that I've been helped.
	Like I have many books suddenly.
	I don't want to.
	C.S. Lewis is a pretty good one.
	There's a great book, I think it's from the 16th century called The Spiritual Combat by Dom Lorenzo Scuppoli.
	Marvelous, marvelous book.
	I counted it a few years ago.
	Very practical steps on spiritual combat.
	Or self-help based on the natural virtues.
	So like Aristotle's ethics or something like that.
	But that's not what modern self-help is, is it?
	What's that stuff?
	I personally, I see it as tapping into...
	And I think there's some good aspects where some people need to get out of this like self-destructive state.
	state, but it has you looking at yourself almost like a God being where you're tapping into your inner, I don't know how to describe like your inner lion, your inner being that you can just become this great person and all these things.
	And all I know is that it didn't help me.
	Maybe it helped me for a little bit, but ultimately when things got dark or when I was experiencing hardships in my life and it just everything fell on me to fix.
	So all right, I fix myself.
	So when I started feeling bad again, I'm like, well, must not have worked.
	Maybe I just got to go deeper.
	Well, maybe I got more work to do.
	Oh, man, I didn't do enough.
	I got to do more.
	Okay, maybe I have to, people that have come out of the new age will know what I'm talking about, integrate my shadow self.
	I need to get in touch with my shadow self now.
	I've elevated this part of me, so now the shadow part.
	I'm just looking from the studio lights.
	I don't know that I've integrated my show.
	What is the integration of the shadow self?
	like from a Christian point of view, that's our flesh, that's our, the But for in the new age, it's your dark side, I guess, your hurts, your pains.
	I don't even know exactly.
	Your vices?
	I think your vices, all these things, it's funny, like I would be able to talk about these things without ever fully knowing what they meant or where these ideas came from.
	I'd be following these gurus and I would be on the lives.
	I'm like, they'd be talking about the 11 laws of the universe.
	And I literally would ask, I'm like, where do these laws come from?
	They would never answer me.
	And I would actually get really annoyed and upset.
	I'm like, I just, I like to know where things come from, and I think that's ultimately what led me to Jesus, You can tell where everything's coming from and it's not just made up.
	Yeah, I can tell you the history of the gravitational constant.
	I can't tell you the history of the 11 magical laws of self-help or whatever.
	Yeah, like the universal and manifestation and all these things.
	And people wouldn't be able to tell me because they would come from these channel books that people would channel beings and they would get this information from spiritual demon beings.
	And then they would just kind of So that's the thing, like a lot of these self-help books, you don't know where some of these ideologies are coming from.
	They could be pagan and demonic in nature.
	And that's why I'm like, if it's not coming from good, sound teaching, you just got to be using.
	discerning, not discernment at this point.
	There's an observation longstanding, it's not original, that one of the pities of people selling themselves is how low the price is.
	You know, the notion that you would mortgage your soul or attempt to sell your soul.
	for like Oprah book club self-help gobbledy gook is so pathetic that you would give up true revealed religion and natural religion even for that matter for like some dumb quartz rock or whatever is so and for you say, no, man.
	You know, it's like, man, St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas and like all the doctors of the church ever, they're all a bunch of dumb idiots.
	But let me tell you about the blue beaked bird demon.
	I got some news for you.
	The alien, not demon alien.
	Yeah, good grief.
	Like I used to think those rocks and stuff, like, well, God made the rocks.
	So obviously.
	they're good and I can use this one for love and healing and this one will protect me from demonic activity and this one will help me tap into my psychic powers and clearly God made these so I can use them for the things that he tells me to stay away from yeah you know i look i i see actually why that's attractive yeah because god made me too but you know i sin and death pervade the world because of the fall so it's we don't blame him for that.
	But I love, people do this with drugs sometimes, they'll say, especially with pot, the old sin spinach, the devil's lettuce, the Haitian oregano.
	You might have heard of it.
	Yeah, Peruvian parsley.
	And they'll say, whenever you make even a mild criticism of the old marijuana, they'll jump on you and they'll say, may man.
	How could you say that?
	You know, God made pot, man.
	It's natural.
	I'm like, a hemlock is natural.
	You're going to drink that?
	That's not a good idea.
	Speaking of goblets.
	Yeah, but you have to do so much to get to that point, don't you?
	I'm like, I don't know, I never grew it or anything.
	Partook a few times, but.
	A few times.
	You never inhaled.
	By accident, worst experience of my life.
	I took a few puffs on the Jazz cigarettes every now and again.
	Never did much for me.
	I don't like it.
	I preferred alcohol at that point because I could control it better and I liked the feeling it gave me and whatnot.
	It's a great way to wake up.
	No, I'm joking.
	Don't do it.
	No, but I like, you know, I don't really have a druggy personality.
	Of all my sins, that's not one of them.
	But booze, it's a very, you have a glass of wine or two, a cocktail or something.
	It makes you more sociable.
	It makes you a little more outgoing.
	Whereas a lot of other drugs that the libs and the new age people are into, it's just, it makes you more introverted.
	It makes you kind of quieter all the time.
	You're in your own experience.
	Yeah.
	And like I, I didn't do, didn't like Pa, but I would like other different, like party drugs and stuff like that.
	And it would just wake me up and make me feel alive.
	And I remember, man, I was just so lost and broken that I would go to church still buzzed and high from the night before.
	I would wake up in another guy's bed and just super early in the morning on a Sunday, I'm like, wa where are you going?
	I'm like, I got to go to church.
	I was so broken.
	That was better than not going to church.
	Right.
	But I would be watching the music and I'm just like still on this stuff.
	And it's opening you up to some really dark bondage.
	You don't realize it.
	But I loved that stuff at one point.
	But then praise God, even before I got saved, he had me get out of all of that as well.
	I have an unfortunate number of friends.
	who have suggested illicit drug use as a way to be more spiritual and, you know, in touch with your real self and the universe and everything.
	Did you ever get into that, the psychedelics?
	Did you see that?
	Is there a connection?
	I never did psychedelics, just the hard party drugs, apparently.
	Just the fun ones.
	Yeah, just the fun ones.
	But I was very tempted to get into ayahuasca.
	I had some friends that did that, and because I It's like, wait, I get to go to Mexico and vomit for a weekend?
	What's the catch?
	See dark beings that bring me into the clouds, and I don't know, but they...
	And I got into raw veganism as well, which was kind of not eating any cooked food.
	And I would go to different potlucks and vegan events.
	And I was every type of vegan.
	I was the angry, protesting kind.
	But then I was also the super, like, hippie, crunchy girl, like, into all that fun stuff, raising my vibration.
	And a lot of people would be on psychedelics.
	And that really was like, I don't want to be that.
	It's like, I won't, hey, man, I won't even cook my broccoli rabe because of the oils and the dough.
	the toxins hey you want my bathtub acid literally hey man let's yeah literally that was me as a vegan at one point I gotta like save the animals but I'm gonna do cocaine Yeah.
	Wow.
	It was just especially funny.
	I need to triple filter my water and I can't ever have a hamburger, but I'm going to do this tab of drug that was concocted in like a trap house.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Here's some gasoline and whatever.
	God knows what.
	And but like you're totally doing great by eating this.
	thing of lettuce but the cognitive dissonance was very real with so many different things like oh i can't pray to god but i can pray to the stars and i can't have this burger but i can have cocaine so explain that one i still haven't come up up with an answer.
	I've noticed that people who do a lot of cocaine often don't want to eat hamburgers.
	Oh, really?
	Because their appetite is suppressed.
	Thankfully, it was only a handful of times, but I enjoyed it.
	And I thank God every day that all of that could have turned out so differently for me.
	for some reason, by the grace of God, he just allowed it to not go any further than it did.
	And I'm just so thankful for that.
	Another commonality I've found with all the new agey people and the political liberals, I guess, just broadly, is they all in principle or in practice get into really weird sex stuff.
	Have you noticed that?
	Yes.
	Why?
	What's that about?
	Well, I feel like maybe in more of the liberal ways of thinking is anything goes like whatever man nothing matters and just do what makes you feel good it's kind of fleshy hedonism carnality um new age i feel like the more enlightened people get the more they just they fall in love with people's souls or something like that and there's actually i got into it for a hot second there's sexual magic where you can use a beautiful
	thing that God gave us to be shared with your husband or wife to use that special feeling to manifest and create your own reality.
	where you visualize what you want when that feeling is happening and you vision it in a big light tunnel going up to the universe and you basically use your sexual energy to use to do magic.
	So I've actually heard this phrase before.
	I don't know anything about it, but I've heard this phrase, sex magic.
	Okay.
	That's what it is.
	It's basically you just like think happy thoughts.
	It could be other, it could be a lot of other, there's probably dark ways people do this and whatnot, but that's what I learned and practiced at one point.
	I know there are people that have done some really crazy stuff with I don't even want to go.
	It's very graphic, but there's, yeah, there's a lot of different things that I don't know of.
	I don't want to know them.
	I don't know how to do it.
	But people, I think it's a special feeling.
	There must be something with the energy that the enemy thinks can be powerful, or he just tries to mock us into using something very special that God gave us and to pervert it.
	use it for nefarious reasons.
	Yeah, and it is somewhat easily perverted.
	You know, I guess part of it is, yes, liberalism says, you know, if it feels good, do it.
	Yeah.
	the new agey stuff, you could see how that would get into the real weird sex stuff like transgenderism because you say, well, your body has nothing to do and it's your true self, whatever.
	So, okay.
	Yeah, I get how that could take you there.
	But also, we're human beings and we're sexual creatures and, you know, the distinction between men and women is the essential distinction within human nature.
	And so sex, yeah, of course it matters.
	You know, I always thought it was so crazy when the left would say, on the one hand sexual assault, assault is this national epidemic and Harvard Yard is, you know, this hotbed of mass rape.
	And, you know, this was during all the kind of Title IX crazy.
	And so they'd be talking about how there's this epidemic of just constant sexual violence and it was MeToo and all the rest.
	And also sex doesn't matter at all.
	And it's like a totally casual act.
	And you say, well, if sex doesn't matter, then why is sexual assault worse than regular assault?
	Right.
	Though their big thing, consent, obviously.
	Consent.
	Okay.
	I don't consent to be assaulted with a punch to the face.
	Right.
	Why is sex assault so much worse than someone shoving me?
	And we all agree it is.
	Yeah, obviously it is terrible.
	And I think their ideology, the ideology that I used to ascribe to is as long as, maybe I didn't partake, but it was more so as long as people.
	are consenting and of age and they're not an animal, then I guess, yeah, then people were it's like, whatever, whatever you want to do, go for it.
	And that's this kind of, if you read the word, you would know that that's outside of God's beautiful design and especially with what Satan wants to do.
	He wants to blur the lines of man and woman, of what marriage is, of what just what good and holy.
	unions look like.
	It's interesting too, you know that phrase, such a stupid phrase, sex magic, because the most truly magical aspect of sex is conception.
	It's that you can make a person, like this thing that you do that you very much want to do.
	When you do it, you can make a human being.
	It's crazy.
	Which is wild.
	And but that's the part of it where they would all say, no, that's bad.
	We gotta kill that.
	We gotta avoid that.
	Yeah.
	Then you get into the, oh, it's so sad where I would I was vegan and pro choice at one point.
	Yeah.
	Many such cases.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it's just.
	In fact, I would wager virtually all vegans support abortion.
	Most.
	I did meet some just blanket pro life, which was beautiful.
	And it convicted me at one point.
	I actually became pro life before I got saved just based on science alone and just watching people debate.
	I'm like, that makes so much sense.
	Yeah, as a baby.
	How do I, if it's like, how do I not?
	How can I not?
	Yeah.
	People think I was just like, oh, just because you're Christian.
	Like, no, actually, I started believing this way before God really showed me why I believe this way.
	So you mentioned earlier you wanted to bring a feminine touch to ghost hunting because it was a male dominated field.
	And I guess I know some woo-woo new age guys who are into this stuff, but it's mostly ladies.
	Very much.
	It's a lot of chicks are into like the secret and all that stuff.
	What is that dynamic like?
	So in the ghost hunting world, it's a lot of, there's a lot of great people there.
	So like, I don't want to, I'm not making fun of anyone.
	We love, listen, we love the Freemasons and Tony Robbins and the ghost hunters.
	But, oh, my best friends are good.
	There we go.
	No, but there's a lot of kind people, but it was a lot of just people at the time.
	A lot of the men were designing equipment.
	they were really focused on like the scientific aspect of it.
	So the electromagnetic field readers, we call them K2 meters, all the different...
	So in the moment I was like, I just felt something touch my arm, then the electromagnetic field reader would give me a reading or go up and make noises and whatever the thing was designed to do.
	So that was the thing that really kept me coming back is the evidence was there.
	I was the equipment was confirming what I was feeling.
	And that's why I'm like, well, there this has to, how can this not be real?
	I'm seeing this, I'm feeling it.
	That's capturing it.
	What else am I supposed to do?
	But I don't think it's a natural phenomenon.
	I think some things were.
	That's why we would try to, like, we would try to scan for where the plumbing equipment was or if we if it went off we'd like try to recreate things and you were i guess trying to test the spirits in our own way i guess because a spiritual thing by definition is not a corporeal thing so like a traditional understanding of an angel or a demon is that they're pure intellect not not body or animals the lower beasts are just body and instinct and
	appetite uh in angels are are pure intellect and will and we're this middle ground where we have the bodies we're bodies like animals but we're intellect and will like angels and so we're in this really interesting middle ground.
	And so you'd say, well, look, a demon or a ghost, a ghost from some geist spirit that doesn't have a body.
	But I guess upon further reflection, wouldn't you say, well, an important reality of our faith is that there is in fact a connection between the spiritual and the physical.
	This is the, this is.
	essentially the definition of a sacrament and it reaches its apotheosis in the incarnation when God becomes man.
	So obviously there's a connection.
	I'm actually not surprised that you say some spirit turns up a few beep-boops on a recording device.
	Well, like we are literally made in his image, so we are trying just like him, soul, flesh, spirit.
	Spirit is communing with God and the flesh is like we're still going to battle that every day and there's a constant battle.
	So we're kind of in touch with both the carnality of ourselves and the walking by the spirit.
	It's something I have to try to do every day.
	It's very hard, but thank God for his grace and his mercy and he's he helps us do that.
	But yeah, definitely thought that being a medium, you were kind of the in between for the physical and the spiritual realm that, oh, I'm the medium that where they can communicate through me and connect the two, whatnot.
	Now that you've come out of it, is there, what's your Christian view of these things?
	Meaning, you know, we, are you like a C.S. Lewis kind of mere Christianity?
	You believe in the Nicene Creed?
	I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven.
	That's a common sort of non-denominational, well, we're a mere Christian.
	C.S. Lewis wrote a book about this.
	Uh, and the Nicene Creed is this ancient Christian creed.
	Uh, but there, you know, We recognize the communion of saints, the saints in heaven.
	We recognize we're all part of the mystical body of Christ.
	So there's this kind of connection there that we see references to the cloud of witnesses.
	You know, we see in the book of the Apocalypse, which you were talking about earlier, the saints are holding buckets of their prayers.
	And so it's, and we believe that there are choirs of angels, and we believe that we believe in the Archangel Gabriel and Michael.
	And so we, it's this very full world.
	Previously, that world, usually invisible to us, for you was populated by like yetis and tar monsters.
	Now, is it that the world, that world has been demystified, or is it now full of the real thing, you know, the angels and the saints and the choirs and the celestial bodies.
	It's kind of the veil has been lifted where it's that now I know the lens to view these things and why God has told me to stay away from them, that there's a reason for it, that it's so dangerous because we don't know what's out there.
	There's a whole spiritual realm.
	There's a war happening in the spirit on our behalf and we There's spirits.
	The devil is prowling around like a lion waiting to devour us and look for weak links, people that with open doors, the legal system.
	in the spirit realm is so prevalent that you just they look for any crack, any open door, whether it's content you're watching and things you're speaking and coming to agreement with.
	And when you say content, are you talking about this big problem, especially for young men, which is porn?
	Yeah.
	But there's other content.
	There's other content.
	Like even are women watching these gossipy caddie shows?
	Like gossip is also detestable.
	You know, it's not just these major big things.
	Like, are you gossiping?
	Are you jealous?
	Are you in envy?
	Like that's also a work of the world.
	Even, look, this is a little close to home for me because I host a political show, except when I'm doing this one, but generally I do a daily political show.
	And there is a real incentive to detraction toward what St. Paul condemns as a railing and reviling spirit.
	And you see it.
	You see it on a lot of these shows and people are just railing constantly, reviling, detracting.
	And it's a temptation and it's a hazard in my line of work.
	But it's very spiritually dangerous.
	It is.
	It is.
	And it's, there's a reason why God tells us to guard our gates, our eyes, our ears, our mouth, and to be very, I think, like I said earlier, like.
	like to live with the fruit of the spirit.
	You know, I desire to have the fruit of the spirit more than the gifts of the spirit where I want to be walking in love and joy and patience and kindness and self-control.
	You know, like there's moments that I have not had self-control.
	I still don't have it with certain ways I react, but like the Lord is so gracious.
	And to remind me, it's like, okay, maybe there's an obvious sin here with this person, but...
	He's here to save you.
	And they want you operating outside of the will of God.
	and they want you in bondage still.
	So what's your message to the ghost hunters who are still going out there with the tape recorders or whatever they have now, probably an iPhone app, or the young men and women who What's your message to them?
	I understand the appeal especially I haven't lost a parent but I can understand wanting to possibly try to make contact with somebody I know a lot of people are hurting and that's why they go to psychics they go to mediums they they go to these ghost hunts wanting to make just contact with other people they know or they're just wanting to they're curious I know there's just a curiosity we are born with that curiosity you know It goes all the way back to the garden.
	But Satan has come to deceive us.
	He's masquerading himself as a being of light.
	So he's going to trick you and he's going to come back as somebody that you know and love and or even somebody that you don't know and love, just people that are out there.
	And I would just urge people to have such high discernment in this hour to stay away, take note.
	away take no part in the evil deeds of darkness you don't you want to separate yourself from this stuff and curiosity opens a door and that's what led me down this thing i was curious and that curiosity because I didn't turn around and stop it right then and there, it led me down this destructive path into ghost hunting and it only left me demonized and in bondage and in chains.
	And I would just urge people to please, please just stay away from it.
	Don't watch the shows.
	Stop going on these ghost hunts.
	If you have the equipment, if you have these occult objects, get rid of them and repent and turn to Jesus.
	It's not that curiosity is awful in itself, but it has to be ordered by morality and charity and ordered toward God.
	The minute it just becomes this idle little game, then curiosity kills the cat.
	Do you remember that old show, the guy, John Edwards, not the presidential candidate, Jonathan Edwards, the guy who.
	Yeah, he had the crowd.
	He did the crowd work and he told them that they were all talking to their dead spouse or whatever and he preyed on these.
	Look, maybe he was doing it sincerely, so I don't want to accuse him of something.
	But regardless, what he was doing is preying on very grieving, damaged people.
	people to get ratings on TV.
	It was a dreadful, dreadful show.
	But there was always a debate about it.
	Was he doing a cold reading and he was just putting on a magic trick or was he doing something even darker?
	I think it could be so many different answers, especially nowadays where people have, producers could probably look up information or credit card and they have your name and stuff like that.
	But back in the day, I think it could be so many different things where they're actually getting information.
	They have parlor tricks like, oh, I'm getting someone with a name that starts with J. I'm getting a B. My wife's name's Belinda.
	Yes.
	Belinda said she misses you.
	Wow, that's amazing, John.
	Yeah, and some, I think people sometimes are very desperate to hear something and wanting to make contact.
	I know people.
	I know people that are desperate and they're still stuck in this and seeking to hear from people.
	And it's because we're just, like I said, it's the curiosity, but it is what you do with that curiosity.
	Are you going to, is that going to lead to an action?
	Are you going to start looking things up?
	Are you going to start watching shows?
	And that's to do with so many different things, not just the paranormal, but works of the flesh and whatnot.
	But I would just urge people to have self-control, to stay away from this stuff, have no, take no part in the evil deeds of darkness and just focus on Jesus.
	Because he, yeah, especially you go ghost hunting because people die and that makes you sad.
	But there's only one way we know to overcome death.
	There's only one example of it and it's not on the travel channel.
	No.
	Yeah.
	No.
	That's good.
	Thank you so much for coming on.
	Where can people follow your work?
	They can find me on Instagram right now and hopefully a YouTube channel as well at christina.costanza.
	Costanza, it's a good strong Italian name.
	Christina, thank you so much for coming on.
	Thank you for having me.

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