Atheists, Covid, and Aliens: YES or No | Kirk Cameron
In this exciting episode of YES or NO, Michael Knowles is joined by actor and author Kirk Cameron as they tackle some of the most thought-provoking and challenging questions.
Be sure to check out Kirk Cameron’s new book, Born to Be Brave, where he inspires readers to stand strong in their faith and lead with courage. You can grab your copy here: https://amzn.to/3YtDsvX
Today’s Sponsor:
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In this episode, I am at a great disadvantage for a number of reasons.
I'm up against a beloved cultural figure, a man who has significant advantage on me in terms of wisdom because he's now a grandfather.
And a man who's not even drinking.
So I might be sloshed and he might totally win the game.
That would be, of course, the great Kirk Cameron.
Kirk, thank you for coming on the show.
My pleasure.
It's an honor to be here.
Sober.
So you have this book, Born to be Brave, out now and everyone should get it immediately.
I have, I haven't even written another book in like four years.
All I have is a board game, a little card game, a yes or no game, with the yes or no politics, philosophy, and religion expansion pack.
And I fear, Kirk, not only are you brave, but you are wise, and you have the wisdom that comes with maturity.
I will pull a card.
I will read the prompt.
You will move my martini glass and Based on how you think I would answer the question.
Then we'll flip it.
I will move your coffee cup based on how I think you would answer the question.
That's how it's played.
Okay.
Ready?
Got it.
Feminism is...
This is one of my favorite quotes in the history of politics.
From the great Pat Robertson, I believe.
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.
Okay.
It's an actual quote from Pat Robertson.
And what do I think you're going to say about that?
Wow.
I'm not 100%.
I'm sorry, this is the first time playing the game.
If I don't think you agree 100% with the quote, but say 90% of the quote, do I go with 90% yes, or it's got to be all or nothing?
No, it could be.
If a reasonable person might assent, you know, no one agrees with everyone on every single thing most of the time.
So if there's, say, 90%, probably that would be an agreement.
Okay, okay.
Kirk, it was an easy one, in fact, because I do agree 100% with Pat Robertson.
Which part did you think?
Turning them into lesbians.
There may be some who still want to sleep with men.
That's a fair point.
Everything else from aborting children to ultimately an attack on the family structure and all that kind of stuff.
These things are critical and we're seeing the fallout of that Today, and you talk about it all the time.
So that wasn't too...
You're right.
It was a simple one.
And even...
You raise a good objection on the lesbian part, because some of them are not lesbians.
But also because the left has gone so far in the sexual revolution ideology, they now kind of deny that lesbians exist, because a lesbian is a woman who is attracted to other women.
But now the left denies that women even exist as a category.
So they've almost abolished lesbians.
The one that people always...
Clutch their pearls on is the witchcraft thing.
Yeah.
But, you know, in modern life, the New Age occult pseudo-religion is extraordinarily prevalent.
I mean, people all the time with their little crystals and their kind of vibes and their woo-woo, reiki stuff, that is just...
In a prior age would have been referred to as witchcraft.
Yeah, that's right.
But it's kind of ubiquitous.
You see it everywhere.
People are into that.
I'm a spiritual person.
I'm not a religious person, but I'm a spiritual person.
It usually means they've got some sort of a crystal or something.
Yes.
I have observed that religion is a habit of virtue that implies the will to give to God the service he deserves.
That's like a Thomistic, basic definition of religion.
And so when someone says, I'm spiritual but not religious...
It means that they're spirits, but they don't give to God what he deserves, which is the definition of a demon, actually.
It's because a demon is not corporeal.
A demon is purely spirit, but a demon rejects God.
Won't give him what he deserves.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
They don't mean to say that, but they kind of are saying.
But by definition, they're sort of saying the same thing.
And I'm thinking of the scriptures that say that you believe in God good.
Even the demons believe in God, though, and tremble.
Right, right.
And so there you have it.
Right.
Okay, you're up.
Kamala Harris is black.
*laughs* That's going to get me into trouble.
Now, you're going to decide what...
How you think.
Kamala Harris is black.
Kamala Harris is black.
That's it.
That's the statement.
Okay, wait.
I keep getting conflicting reports.
You know?
What time is it?
What day is it?
I'm going to go with what I think.
Okay, now hold it.
Don't tell me.
No, I'm not going to tell you.
Okay.
So you've got your answer in your head.
Yes, I've got my answer.
Correct.
I would answer that yes, she is why.
Yeah.
I agree, basically.
Yeah.
There are all these questions that have been raised at the level of the campaign and by people in the media that she's not black.
Her mother was Indian.
But it seemed to me well-established her father was at least somewhat black.
He was an Afro-Caribbean guy's professor at Stanford.
But then there are all these questions.
Well, you know what convinced me was when I heard her speaking at that rally, and then the accent came out.
And it was like, you know, it just...
But she also, by that logic, might be Hispanic.
Because when she spoke at that other rally, she started doing like a Chiquita banana impression.
Hello, mami!
But I don't think she's Hispanic.
She's never done an Indian impression.
No, not that I remember.
She hasn't campaigned in, I don't know, the Lower East Side or something.
She could get a lot of votes there.
This is a fun game.
I like this game.
This is great.
But neither one of us have had anything to drink.
You make a good point.
Chin-chin.
Because we can drink.
We don't have to, but we get to.
Okay.
Now, how do you prepare your martinis?
I'm just curious.
Eric Metaxas likes them very dirty.
I don't.
I like a touch of...
Now, Eric Metaxas, I think, basically opens up a salt shaker and just pours it all in there.
He does.
You know what?
He asks the waiter to just put the brine from the olive can into the...
Yeah.
I like it.
You can see it's a little cleaner.
I'm a little nervous about cardiovascular problems.
I don't need that, but I do blue cheese, olive, gin, touch.
You look at a glass of vermouth from across the room, that's probably sufficient.
Yeah.
That's enough.
And although, the problem is, we filmed this show, Kirk.
It's not 8 o'clock here at night.
This is a little earlier in the day.
So my producers make me have a martini, and the rest of my day is shot.
Well, that's the only reason I agreed to do the show and play the game against you, was knowing that I would have a little stimulant in my iced coffee, and you would have a bit of a depression.
Yeah, I know.
Does anyone have zin that I can just start snorting them or something?
Okay.
I... See, technically, actors who kiss other actors who are not their spouses on camera commit adultery.
So you're answering for me.
And this is being read like in the first person.
Yes, so this is what I think.
Technically, actors who kiss other actors who are not their spouses on camera commit adultery.
Oh, I have to guess what you're going to think.
Yes.
Oh, oh.
Um...
Um...
Your producers are good.
They're making this difficult.
Had you asked me three, four years ago, I would have said no.
Today, I am totally wrong.
Cameron Pild on this question.
I actually believe...
You know, I've had a little bit of an acting career.
Somewhat less successful than your acting career.
But I've played all sorts of roles.
And I always thought, oh, it's your living truthfully in imaginary circumstances.
And it's no big deal.
But...
No, actually.
You're a compositive body and soul.
The things you do actually do have moral import.
And if you're a good actor, then you really are given over to the passions of the role and the circumstance.
And so...
It's kind of suspect.
That certainly is what you attempt to do.
And I would consider myself probably, I don't know, probably below mediocre as an actor.
I don't think that's fair.
Watch the Left Behind movie.
But when I have done well, it was because of an acting coach who taught me how to cry on the spot.
And the way to do that was very interesting.
And it was very...
You reach down very deep into your emotions.
And you try to...
Honestly believe what you're doing.
If you're faking it, you can maybe pull that off once.
I thought of my grandma who passed away.
And then you're done with your close-up.
But now you've got a two-shot and you've got the other actor to give something to.
And so you've really got to go there.
And so, to your point...
You know, you are one composite person and you really are going there.
And one easy way is to just look to your spouse or your children and ask them what they think of you making out or sleeping with this person.
And if they're okay, you know, just throwing it into the box of, well, it's just make-believe.
There's just, there's something, there's something that it's part of you.
Yes, it's something that you really did.
Because you famously will not do this stuff on camera.
Even though you're a very famous actor, you say, sorry, I'm not doing this.
And I remember when I read or heard that that was your stance, I remember thinking, oh, but, you know, come on.
Isn't that a little scrupulous or something?
But no.
I mean, anyone who's ever done a play in high school, if you take acting seriously and you actually want to do a good job, Even if your co-star is like an ugly lady that you're not really attracted to, if you want to convincingly play someone who's in love with that person, you have to try to cultivate feelings of love.
And so if you're making out with somebody, your lips have really touched that person.
They really have.
And you've even given way in your desire and in your spirit to another person.
I totally agree.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Not even topics that I ever thought that I would think deeply about or would affect me personally, but then you find yourself in these situations, and that's where I think it's good because that's where you form your convictions.
Yeah.
And then those convictions carry over into other areas of your life.
Your children know these things.
And without you having to even teach them, per se, they say, Dad, I saw how you were when I was growing up.
I saw how you honored Mom.
Or I saw the things that you did that other people made fun of you for.
And I just want you to know today, that helps me in the decisions I'm making.
Right.
Which is such a win.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, you're up.
It's more of a risk to send your teenager to public school than it would be to buy them a motorcycle.
I'm answering for you before maybe you've even answered for yourself.
I say you say yes, 100%.
100%?
It's so obvious.
Oh my goodness.
Did you see the CDC study?
This came out a day or two ago.
One in 18.
One in 30 American high school students today identifies as transgender.
One in 18 is gender questioning.
One in 18 American high school kids doesn't know if he's a boy or a girl.
And then that goes along with all sorts of anxiety, depression, suicide, very high increased risk of suicidality.
To subject your kid to that, I mean, you are...
It's not 17 out of 18 chance, but 1 in 18 chance, you are really rolling the dice with your kid's wife.
Yes, absolutely.
And this is something that I've been leaning into a lot after I tried to read a children's book of virtue at a public school.
And I thought I would go to the most diverse, the most inclusive libraries there were in the country.
And I identified them by those who have had drag queen story hours.
Men dressed in skirts and high heels and fishnet stockings reading to children.
Surely they'd want my perspective in their diverse environment.
And they rejected me.
And said that they were inclusive and therefore I couldn't...
They had to exclude you.
That's right.
Or that I wasn't the right color of skin.
They were looking for authors who were of color.
And you're a white man.
And I'm a white man.
Okay.
Yeah.
So, you know, by the way, I was really nervous when I saw you at the Am I Racist premiere.
I was nervous just the whole...
Not because of you, but just because I was worried that I was going to discover that I was actually racist.
I might have been.
Because I'm white.
I'm straight.
I'm conservative.
I'm Christian.
You're full of privilege.
I'm all of these things.
And I've got six children.
Four of them are adopted.
Three of them are half white.
So I might have three children who are half racist.
That would be terrible.
Against the other half.
Against their other halves.
I was very nervous.
But...
This idea of public schools being more dangerous than giving your kid a motorcycle, I think is 100% true.
Because at the end of the day, public schools have become so unsafe for children, in my opinion.
My view is that they're too religious.
Public schools are far too religious for my preferences.
And they're so dogmatic.
And the value of the sacrifice that they demand from you to their priests and their elders is just not even...
We can't even discuss it.
And I think that they've created their own worship called secular humanism, which has become the church of secular culture.
And it's the worship of corporate man or human beings.
And they had their own twisted Ten Commandments.
I was thinking about this the other day.
Now, I'm not talking about...
People who are genuinely struggling with gender dysphoria.
I'm not talking about people who have experienced same-sex attraction since the time they were three years old.
Well, 13 years old.
But I'm saying this is something that they don't perceive to be a choice.
So I want to be compassionate and sympathetic and charitable.
I want to help.
I want to love.
I want to be kind.
But these Twisted Ten Commandments...
I see them.
It's L-G-B-T-Q-I-A-D-E-I. And if you don't fall in line with that dogma, that is grounds for banishment from their society.
You will be canceled.
You will be shut down.
And that kind of mafia mentality that is dogmatically pushed on children in public schools is way too religious for me.
And the sacrifice?
The hearts and minds and futures of your children.
It's a kind of conversion therapy.
Ironically, they say they hate conversion therapy, but it's a conversion therapy to their false religion.
I agree.
Well, well, well, well chosen.
George Washington will be the next victim of historical cancel culture.
I do have a question for your producer.
Does he have to be the next victim or just a next victim?
Do I think he's the next victim or a next victim?
This says the next victim.
The next victim.
That's an important read.
Oh, um...
Very good question to ask.
Okay, I have my answer.
Okay, so you gotta move my...
He certainly will be a next victim.
I don't think he'll be the next victim because he's harder to get.
So I think they'll go after, if they haven't already, I think they'll go after Jefferson first.
They've already done Columbus pretty effectively.
I think they'll go after Jefferson first.
They've tried to do Jackson.
They'll succeed with Jackson when they take him off the 20.
I think they'll go after, I don't know.
Probably not Ben Franklin, though maybe he got a little handsy with the gals in France, according to certain reports.
Maybe he'll be a Me Too victim.
But Washington, he was so virtuous in so many ways.
They'll get him, for sure.
They hate him.
But I think he'll be two or three down the line.
Okay.
All right.
But I'm glad, you know, when you asked that question, I feared you were going to say, you know, he'll be a next victim, but I'll get at least one point.
Yeah.
Well, with everything that's going on in the country right now, and as they're continuing to dismantle people's understanding of history and the founding and the need for the Constitution and the value of the Constitution, and then we can, you know, with all of the racism stuff that's going on, I figured Washington is definitely on their hit list.
It is.
And he's a big scalp, too, is the thing.
Because he's the father of the country.
That's right.
And, you know, I anticipated this.
Yes.
Not this question, but this issue.
And so that's why I've made sure that I've prepared myself with my card here.
And look, lo and behold, who is on the front of this card.
This is your white privilege card.
Yes.
And that's George Washington right there.
Yes.
So it says you've been a member, Kirk Cameron right there, member since birth.
Makes sense.
I'll cover up your card number here.
I'll take note of it for myself, but then I'll cover it up here.
White privilege card.
This is it.
The pinnacle of all humanity.
You have arrived.
You hold in your hands the key to happiness, success, infinite wisdom, and power.
You can do anything.
Wow.
Is that not the most ridiculous idea you've ever heard in your life?
Where do I get my white privilege from?
Look at, you see, this has got some substance to it.
So this was made by a guy, Joel Patrick, who I met.
Yeah, yeah, I know Joel.
And the idea that the left has bestowed upon you and upon me and George Washington.
Yeah.
Such privilege, such power, such wisdom, such absolute advantage.
The man didn't even have teeth.
That's right.
He didn't even have working teeth.
That's right.
And as obnoxious and as ludicrous as this whole concept is, that's where they want to go, is to paint guys like you and me as these monsters.
And certainly, George Washington has got to be up there in their top 10 list.
Yeah, yeah.
They'll go after Frederick Douglass soon enough.
They'll go after Clarence Thomas.
They already sort of did.
So there are a lot of white privilege cards to go around, even to apparently non-white people.
Even non-white people.
That's right.
That's right.
Now you're up.
Who want one of those cards?
I love this question.
Nicolas Cage is the best Buck Williams of the Left Behind movies.
Wow.
Oof.
Wow.
I have my answer.
Okay.
Let's see.
You're not going to hurt my feelings.
No, well, I'm just answering for you.
Answer according to the rules.
Not as though our friendship depends on this.
Sir Roger Moore.
Sir Roger Moore once was asked who the best James Bond was, and he said George Lazenby.
So I think your answer is Nicolas Cage.
You would say, no, he was not.
The best was Greg Perot.
Did I get it right?
You think Nicolas Cage was the best one?
No, you don't.
You know what?
Was there a third?
I'm definitely not the best.
You're definitely better than Greg, for sure.
All right.
Without question.
All right.
All right.
Really?
My answer was yes.
Wow.
My answer was yes.
Why?
Why do you think so?
It takes a lot for an actor to say this other guy.
I don't consider myself to be a highly skilled actor.
I got into acting when I was nine years old.
I was 14, and I played this wise, cracking teenage kid, a hormone with feet, as they willed me.
And I was basically just playing myself.
And while I love acting, I don't miss it when I'm not acting.
I'm not pining for an Academy Award-winning role.
And guys like Nick Cage, they've been acting their whole life.
He's a Coppola.
Yeah, yeah.
And I always thought it would be great to have some kind of a, I don't know, Saturday Night Live skit or something.
Maybe we could do it on your show.
Where two Buck Williams walk into a bar.
And I walk up to Nick Cage, who's just like, he's sitting there with the martini, you know?
He's drinking his blues away.
And I walk in and I'm like, what's the deal?
You took over for me.
They didn't even call me to do the reprisal of Left Behind.
And you don't even believe this stuff.
At least I'm a Christian.
I don't know.
I don't know where to take the script from there.
It's a good opening.
He would say he's living truthfully in imaginary circumstances.
He's living truthfully in unwittingly true circumstances, perhaps.
Noah's flood occurred before the Great Pyramids of Egypt were built.
Noah's flood occurred before the Great Pyramids.
So this is presuming that I believe in a literal flood.
Which, as far as the premise of this goes, I will not confirm or deny until you make your answer.
And then it occurred before the Great Pyramids of Egypt were built.
So, according to accepted archaeology, we would say...
Probably that the pyramids were built after the Noah's Flood.
However, I sort of believe that...
Now we're getting into real kind of out there stuff.
I sort of think the pyramids were built with the help of demons when the earth was extremely rotten and maybe as one of the lead-ups to the Great Flood.
And so I kind of...
Believe that the pyramids could be significantly older than is commonly accepted.
Though there is this one strange fact.
Depending on whether they were built at the accepted time or earlier, Cleopatra lived closer in history to the building of the Bass Pro Shop pyramid than she did to the Great Pyramid of the USA. However, because I'm somewhat agnostic on the question, but I lean a little bit more toward The pyramids might be older.
I guess I basically accept your point.
Yeah.
Okay.
I do not score an extra point on there.
Okay.
Good.
Well, clearly I need to read up on this particular topic because I'm not sure.
I think it was Ben Carson who posited that the pyramids were built to store the grain under the leadership of Joseph in Egypt.
Yeah.
Because of the great famine that came upon Egypt.
Interesting.
And I thought, hmm.
Of course, he was mocked for saying that.
But I just thought it was an interesting concept.
But I didn't check in the dating of...
Well, I suppose that would justify the rapid word.
Yeah.
Because the flood...
The Flood would have to be very, very old.
Like, significantly older than the consensus of when the pyramids were built.
And that's a pretty good...
Okay, well, you just lost a point for yourself because that persuaded me.
Sorry, Kirk.
You get to change?
Wait a minute.
Do I get to change, Ben?
Do I? What do you mean I can't change?
He just persuaded me.
No, no, no.
Kirk just totally convinced me.
This is competition.
Yeah, well, if I were competing against someone, I wouldn't try to persuade him to take a point.
Do I get the point, Ben?
I thought the point was marked.
Ben says I don't get the point.
Thank you, Ben.
Okay, yeah, wow.
I still, that was a persuasive argument.
The media's war on masculinity is really an attack on biblical manhood.
I'll repeat the question.
The media's war on masculinity is really an attack on biblical manhood.
100%.
For sure, right?
For sure, 100%.
My only question was, is it also an attack on sort of natural, not supernatural manhood, not necessarily biblical or Christian manhood, but even kind of natural, like, pagan manhood?
There's no difference, but...
Well, think about this.
I agree that the supernatural is sort of playing upon the natural.
So it's not that they're necessarily in contradiction.
But there is a kind of, outside of a biblical worldview, men could be knuckle-dragging troglodytes with a whole harem who are just pillaging and burning the world, have no sense of justice or don't care for justice.
And the left actually kind of supports that masculinity.
I mean, they support these nasty men who just pursue their self-interest.
I mean, many of them are their own politicians.
But I guess then in that way, specifically their attacks on manliness are an attack on the Christian understanding of a man.
The sense that I get is that much of the media wants to depict men as defective women.
You know, we can just fix a few things and then you can be more like the girls.
And I think that is clearly because there is inherent value to being masculine Yeah,
who are looking to be badasses, but men who so love their wives, children, and their God and their family and their future that they're willing to defend it with their own lives.
That's something that stands in the way of consolidating power in the government and advancing Marxism or any other kind of ideology that would put these people in power.
So I think that's where decentralization of power is the biblical model and that model is dependent upon families and families minus I love what
Jordan Peterson said.
If you think strong men are dangerous, get ready for what weak men can do.
Right, right.
That's sort of how I feel about nationalism.
The limbs attack Christian nationalism.
Christian nationalism is bad.
Wait till you hear about unchristian nationalism.
It's a lot worse, man.
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
I've tried to educate myself about all these things over the last couple of years.
And this, you know, how do you respond to, you know, toxic masculinity arguments?
How do you respond to Christian nationalism arguments?
And, you know, women, I believe, want good, masculine, strong men, providers, protectors.
Children need them.
And when it comes to Christian nationalism, you know, we used to, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that used to be just called Christian patriotism.
We love God.
We love our country.
Christian country.
Yeah, my grandpa, he fought in World War II as a Navy corpsman together with the Marines on Iwo Jima.
So he was a medic that pulled the guys back on the island of Iwo Jima and He would have been called a Christian nationalist.
But you know who really hates nationalists?
And who came up with the term?
Globalists.
Globalists really hate it.
Globalists, by definition, hate nationalists.
Because they want there to be just one great big nation.
So they're the biggest capitalists of all.
They're the biggest nationalists of all.
They just want to be the only one.
Yeah, yeah.
And then I like a little sort of atheist globalism.
I don't know.
I kind of prefer more of a Christian nation.
It's probably a little bit better, you know.
Yeah, where the power is actually distributed to families.
Yeah, yeah.
There's so much more to say.
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Okay.
Method acting is psychologically dangerous.
To clarify our terms here, we're talking about the school of acting, popularized by Brando and his ilk.
That school in the 20th century where, you know, you're really, I don't know, you're really in your own head.
And it is psychologically dangerous.
You were answering for me.
Oh, I'm answering for you.
Sorry, I was on the other side of the game.
What's in this coffee?
- I know, I think Ben might've put a little Tennessee whiskey in there for me.
For sure.
For sure.
It seems to me, I don't know, I'm sure you've met, well, you've run in actually kind of circles with nice actors, but I'm sure you've met a lot of crazy ones too.
The vast majority, even of really good people I like in show business, the vast majority of them, especially who engage in modern acting techniques, are completely insane.
Completely nuts.
And they sort of have to be because I was an acting teacher once.
Great acting teacher.
He was assistant for Meisner back in the 50s.
He was very much involved in this kind of acting.
And he said, you know, to be an actor, you have to be a gullible fool because you have to believe the circumstances of the movie or whatever.
And so if you're constantly giving yourself over to all of these other circumstances, personalities, desires, objectives, all this stuff, it kind of twists your mind a little bit.
It messes with you.
It does, right?
I think so.
Absolutely.
I've never studied Meisner.
I've never studied this method of acting.
But to the degree that I've done well acting, you go there deeply.
Do you want me to teach you how to cry on cue?
Please.
This was taught to me, and I can teach you.
I'm going to give you the warp speed version of the lesson.
A little pin in your pocket.
That's what you'd think, right?
You would think that you need to think of something really sad, Michael, or have some little person sticking you with pins underneath the table to make you cry.
Well, that might work once or twice.
But really, what I did is I had a scene on an old show called Touched by an Angel.
And the scene was, I was a mailman who had a little nine-year-old boy who would wait for me in his Spider-Man costume and wait for the mail.
And his dad was a drunk and his mom was missing.
And he adopted me as like his father figure.
I wasn't paying attention one day as the driver looked at my phone and I ran him over.
Yeah, yeah.
I then had to go apologize to the drunk father for running over his son.
And I had to burst into tears.
And then there was a later scene where I needed to commit suicide where I was just profusely crying.
How do you do something like this?
And remember, you're going to have to do it seven times.
It's not like a play where you do it once in the order of the narrative.
You have the wide shot.
You got the close-up shot.
You got the super close-up on the eyes.
Then you got the two shots and everything else.
So the method is this.
We close our eyes, we being you and the acting teacher, and she creates for you an imaginary relationship that goes back to the very beginning.
And you begin to build happy memories, very warm, very comforting ties of friendship to this young boy, to where your heart is completely endeared to him.
He looks up to you.
You are his father.
And never once the thought of a sad thought.
Then, once the relationship has been established in your mind sufficiently, they roll the cameras, the acting coach comes up to you and whispers in your ear, Michael, you didn't watch where you were going and you just ran the child over.
He'll never go to the high school prom.
He will never get married or have children.
You did this because of your selfishness.
Action.
And then you're there and you're just like, what?
Yeah.
And then boom, and the tears just start coming.
Right.
If you do the work up front, it's very easy and it's repeatable over and over and over.
I don't know the name of it, but Warner Laughlin was the name of the teacher and she was just fantastic.
It's great.
It's also because it involves the imagination.
Stella Adler, the acting teacher and theorist, had this line.
There's people who want to just make you think about your own personal life.
Sometimes acting, just say, think about getting dumped at prom or whatever.
Because if you're trying to play Hamlet, Unless you're Danish royalty, there is nothing about getting dumped at prom that will help you to play Hamlet.
You have to use your imagination.
So that technique, or even like a character biography, the sort of thing where you enter the scene and you know what you had for breakfast.
It's not going to come up in the scene, but it just gives you the confidence to live in this character.
And the ability to be present.
Yeah.
I know it's in my belly right now.
I had scrambled eggs and bacon this morning.
Right.
But that sort of thing, then, you cut, okay, Kirk, great job, thanks for crying a hundred times, and all those different shots.
Then you leave the set.
You are still convulsed with this experience.
That's right.
And if you were going with the method acting that we just talked about...
They have more scenes to do in an hour and a half.
And if you're not breaking out of that convulsing and you're still there and you're in it and you're doing that for weeks or months, that would be psychologically damaging in my view.
All right.
Well, then you get the point.
You're up.
All right.
In a cage fight between Kirk Cameron and a drag queen who reads to kids in public libraries, Kirk would get absolutely destroyed, but only because the average drag queen is 6'2", 190 pounds, and completely drugged out on ketamine.
Wow.
Because, you know, you're a tough guy.
I mean, you don't get a physique like this through neglect.
That's the thing.
But it's a good point.
You are not a cracked out 6'5 ex-con with a rap sheet a mile long who has spent your life growing in your skill at predation.
So in that case, I'm going to have to say, yeah, you'd get destroyed.
Unless it were like a kind of David and Goliath thing, even this mammoth sort of criminal who's got all the worst desires in the world.
That person's intellect and will will be so darkened by sin and evil that because you have spiritual clarity, you might just take that little slingshot and...
Is that vivid enough?
Yes, it's frightening to think of it.
And I agree with you.
But it's a combination.
I think I would probably get beat Not because I don't know how to throw down a rear naked choke and make the drag queen tap out, but they also have weapons.
Because they have heels.
Stilettos.
A stiletto inside of a cage match.
Or the feather boa.
Boa could kind of...
I mean, they could pierce a jugular and then it could be over with.
So that's why I often wear protective clothing.
It's no knock on you.
You just don't wear stilettos.
Yes, I think that's fair.
That's fair.
Okay.
Your turn.
My turn.
Since to pray really just means to ask.
Well, it means more than that also, but it also includes to ask.
Anytime one of my Protestant friends asks me for a favor, they might as well be praying to a saint.
Hmm.
Since to pray really just means to ask.
Anytime one of my Protestant friends asks me for a favor, they might as well be praying to a saint.
Now, I'm sorry.
You're going to guess what I think, or I'm guessing what you think?
You're guessing what I think.
I'm going to guess what you think.
Let me read it again.
Since to pray, says Michael Knowles, really just means to ask.
It's a little bit more than that, but it involves asking.
Yeah.
It's like to pray like I pray thee, sir.
Give me a martini.
Anytime one of my Protestant friends asks me for a favor, they might as well be praying to a saint.
And you're answering how I would answer.
Okay.
This is great.
I'm actually going to learn more about my friend Michael.
Well, it would not be, I want to get the wording exactly right.
It's not that you might as well be praying to a saint.
I'm just me, man.
You would be much better to pray to a saint than to ask me for my prayers.
Because I think my prayers, being a member of the mystical body of Christ, I think my prayers have some efficacy to them.
But the prayers of the saints are more efficacious than the prayers of me.
Which means you are not a saint.
I'm certainly not canonized.
And I'm not in heaven yet.
I hope for it.
I trust in God's love and charity and grace.
But if you had the option to pray to Mary, Holy Mary, Mother of God, or to pray to, I don't know, St.
Peter or St.
Paul, or to pray to really any of the innumerable saints, the martyrs, Their prayers would be more efficacious than mine.
Though mine might have some efficacy, too.
See, this is where you have the advantage.
Well, you are Michael Knowles, so you get to answer correctly.
There we go.
Give me that point.
I'm just guessing.
I'll take a sip.
Because I was an atheist who was converted by the Holy Spirit into what we would call Protestantism, I've been taught to view that as necromancy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that the saints are those who have been redeemed and in Christ.
Yeah.
So I would call you as much of a saint as I would call Mary a saint.
But would you pray to Mary?
No.
I wouldn't pray to you or to Mary.
But I would ask you to pray for me and I would certainly want to pray for you whether you ask me to or not.
I care about you and I want to.
And I'm also pretty fired up about knowing that in the heavenly places, according to scripture, that I both have Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit interceding for me in prayer.
Yes.
With groanings that cannot be uttered and Christ himself at the right hand of the Father.
So I feel like with you and my friends and the Holy Spirit and Christ are covered.
So you would ask me for my, just as I would ask you for prayers.
You would do that because you can pray directly to God.
And that's great.
You have a direct line to God, which is fabulous.
But you say, look, God loves his friends.
And we're part of the mystical body of Christ.
So it's good to say, hey, Sheila's in the hospital.
Can you pray for Sheila?
Yeah, yeah.
So you do that.
And that's not idolatrous.
That's not anything like that.
So, and my only point is, because God is the God of the living, not of the dead, because the one thing we know about the saints in heaven is that they are not dead.
They're alive.
That's right.
So then they can just, at the very least, you would say.
No, you just, you almost made me Catholic right there in four seconds.
And you know what else?
I often talk about In Hebrews chapter 11, or is it 12?
I can't remember.
It talks about the great cloud of witness.
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us run the race and throw off all the sin that encumbers us.
And I think of that great cloud of witnesses as almost like heaven's balcony.
Yes.
I think of heaven's balcony.
And my minister's wife just passed away.
And one of my dear, dear friends, Marshall, passed away.
And I think of them as cheering us on from heaven's balcony.
And I don't pray to them.
I pray.
I think of them so fondly, and I think, I hope Sherry can see what we're doing, and she's cheering us on, and it encourages me so much.
I think you're there.
You think I'm almost there?
No, because a really clear example of the scene you're describing is in the Book of the Apocalypse.
The saints in heaven are holding buckets with incense coming up.
And you might say that the book of the Apocalypse is a sort of mystical reading of the Mass, which is a separate conversation.
But the incense that's coming up is the prayers of the saints, according to Scripture.
But that's just what you're saying, which is they're cheering you on.
What does that mean?
They're not gods, but they're like...
Yeah, and I wouldn't consider that as a Protestant, as necromancy.
I think of it as, Marshall, I hope you're seeing what's going on, and that I'm carrying on your work, and that you've inspired and encouraged me.
Yeah, yeah.
I think you're basically there.
Yeah, basically, because if they're praying for us, or even if you say they're encouraging us, or they're on our side, or they're rooting for us, or something, which I think is all basically the same thing, then you say, all right, if they have prayers, if they're prayers of the saints in heaven, They ain't praying for the people in hell.
They're damned forever.
They're not praying for the people in heaven.
They're in the presence of God.
They don't need any prayers.
They're obviously praying.
They're not praying for your cats or dogs, probably.
I think they're praying for us.
And they're doing exactly what you're describing, which means we agree.
This is a good conversation.
I like this.
Now...
You're up.
Now I'm up.
I think.
Do I get to drink?
You get to drink.
Hold on.
Mr.
Davies says that Kirk can't drink.
No, I'm joking.
I can't.
No, you can't drink.
It is Kirk's turn.
See, you think I don't know how to run this show?
It's amazing the lack of faith that the control room has.
But you do get to drink, and it is your turn.
I've witnessed a miracle.
Your answer to this?
I'm reading this to you.
Yes, but I'm guessing your answer.
Oh, no.
Isn't it the other way around?
No.
Yeah, I guess how you would answer.
Oh, I've witnessed a miracle.
Okay.
Of course.
Yeah.
You have the look of the guy who's witnessed a miracle.
Well, I guess I should probably define our terms.
Yeah.
I guess I've never tried to really strictly define a miracle before, but I think right now I'm going to go with a divine intervention that makes something happen.
And so...
I'm going to give a two-part answer.
Is that fair?
Yeah.
Okay.
Do I get two points?
I don't think you get two points.
I want the judges to know.
So the first miracle that I would say that I recognized...
And then I recognized many more.
But the first miracle I recognized was my own change of heart.
It was getting a new set of eyes through which to see the world.
How old were you at this point?
I was 17 years old.
I was a professing atheist at that time.
Yeah, me too.
You know, I wasn't Christopher Hitchens who could like, you know, spout out all this stuff and argue the point.
I just found it...
Very amusing to laugh at people who believed in an imaginary figure hiding behind the clouds with a rainbow around his neck, just keeping a track of the good and the bad.
But then I heard a message that really got me asking existential questions, philosophical questions.
What happens out there when we step out of here?
What about after you die?
Is there a heaven?
Is there a...
All of that stuff.
And when I heard the gospel message and I heard the...
The news that God is holy, that we have fallen, and that we are deserving of his wrath because of our rebellion and wickedness and sin, and that he provided a sacrifice, deployed a rescue mission, and that through nothing that I can do to sort of like manipulate or persuade or determine the outcome, God in his mercy saved me.
And he says, now believe the gospel and trust in me.
And I had no idea whether that was true or not, but it sent me down a road of asking questions.
And there was just something that happened when I bowed my head and said, God, make me who I'm supposed to be.
If this is true, I want to know.
And my heart began to change.
And I began to love the things that the scriptures say that God loves.
And I began to hate the things that I used to love.
And I began to rebel against and reject the sin that was once my pleasure.
And I thought, why is this happening to me?
This isn't giving me an advantage in my career.
It's not giving me an advantage with the ladies.
It's not giving me an advantage.
But there's something in my heart and soul that says that it's like God, I didn't just...
A pastor friend of mine said, Kirk, if anybody ever asks you, how did you find God in Hollywood?
Remember this.
You didn't find God.
He wasn't lost.
He found you.
I'm like, yes!
Yes!
And I can't find any other way to explain...
The worldview shift and the change of heart that I've had.
And I would say that was the first miracle.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's the best kind of miracle because if I could get God to just levitate this martini in the air, that would be pretty cool.
But it wouldn't change my marriage.
Yeah, yeah.
And it wouldn't help my children.
I would just say, you're not going to believe this, but Michael and I saw this thing happen.
But when it changes the man or it changes the woman, that's the miracle that is...
By the way, stuff like that, this happens frequently, actually.
Yesterday was the anniversary of the miracle of the sun, which was witnessed by thousands and thousands of people, believers and non-believers alike in Fatima, Portugal.
The sun dancing in the sky and spinning around.
And this was reported widely in the press, including by people who are not Christian, who don't believe in much of anything.
And We're good to
go.
Yep.
And I think, you know, when I read through the scriptures and, you know, you have the rich man in Lazarus and you have the rich man in Abraham's bosom and he's crying out, go tell my brothers, go tell my family so they don't come to this place of torment.
If a man rises from the dead, surely that they'll...
And Jesus said, even if a man comes and rises from the dead, they won't believe.
They've got Moses.
Yeah.
And if they don't believe the word of God, they're not going to believe even if you have a great miracle like that.
Yeah, yeah.
And...
And the great miracle that I see in the scriptures is, I think, the great need that we have in humanity.
And that is, someone's got to figure out how to transform the human heart.
Because we're freaking wicked and evil.
And turn on the news and look what people of power do and people of means and resources do to other human beings.
They not only enslave them, they murder them, they traffic them, they abuse them.
And they'll do it to the people that they have been, whose care, who...
They'll do it to the people that they're supposed to be taken care of.
And I think that actually validates the scripture even more to me.
In Jeremiah 17, 9, which says, The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.
That's our greatest need for a miracle, is the transformation of the human heart, which comes through the gospel.
Yeah.
I agree.
All right.
I agree.
I agree.
This is a great game.
Now, you just, yes, you just read, so now I read.
Okay.
Okay.
AI needs to be regulated to slow the process of mass unemployment.
Okay.
And now...
Why do I keep getting confused on who's supposed to answer?
Now you have to answer for me.
I have to answer for you.
And it is AI needs to be regulated to slow the process of mass unemployment.
Before you answer, let me have a sip.
I'll get my juices flowing.
Uh...
The wording makes it a little tricky.
Thank you.
AI needs to be regulated because it is a potentially political order shifting technological advance that will have unemployment effects, and so that's part of the political process.
There are other reasons, one being that self-driving cars could drive into this window right now or something.
I mean, there's all sorts of questions.
So in no small part, because I want to take a point from you, I would say, yes, I don't think that one can employ AI regulations to stop the employment shifts that will occur as a result of this technology.
Because then you just basically cede the ground to other countries.
But there will have to be some kind of political regulation.
Just because we're not a society in service of an economy, we have an economy in service of political flourishing.
And if AI does somehow put 70% of people out of work, the society simply will not tolerate that.
So there just has to be some kind of, just as there was regulation of the automobile, there will have to be some regulation of AI, even though the libertarians won't like it.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's getting into a level of thought and understanding that my bandwidth starts to just be full.
And I'd love to have some conversation with you at some point.
And I've, you know, as people who want free markets and people who don't want government control, at what point do you start drawing lines to say, like, okay, like, we're going to shut down technology called AI because it's going to take over.
And then you think, well, shouldn't the good people just be more clever to use AI to stop AI? I don't know how to answer that.
You don't shut down the internet because there's going to be internet porn.
But you probably should regulate the internet so there's less internet porn, which they tried to do in the 90s.
But that becomes the basis for the argument to regulate anything.
Yeah, it can be.
But there's always a hazard in any kind of political life.
But there's no...
Politics is not a matter of five bullet points on a napkin, in my humble opinion.
Politics is a nitty-gritty series of compromises between different groups and powers and levels of government even.
And so there is regulation...
Over everything.
And this was true even in the early republic.
There wasn't federal national regulation, but there was very serious local regulation.
Blue laws, Sabbath laws would be a good example of that.
And so there are always going to be these standards and norms.
And so you think, okay, we could say on the right, look, we're not going to regulate anything, like with internet porn, say.
It's not going to stop our opponents from regulating.
We can say we're not going to have norms and standards.
But just as we would say in schools, we don't want weird porn and drag queens talking to our five-year-olds.
Why not?
Don't you like free speech?
Well, I like free speech, but I like standards and true freedom, right?
So just as that is the case, with something like AI, yes, there's a hazard that...
The bad guys will use any regulation to censor us or whatever, to gain an advantage.
But I don't think that recuses us from the difficult task of governing.
I think we just have to be the ones to wield power and do it in a just manner.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And I think my worldview sort of lays it out and says that's why the self-government and the transformation of the human heart is essential.
Because at the end of the day, no form of government can fix these problems, right?
At the end of the day, you're going to find ways to weaponize laws, good laws, that regulate stuff to actually regulate truth and beauty and goodness.
And so, truly...
The only solution is a systemic solution that begins with the transformation of the person.
If you have a nation of totally vicious people, you can't have a good country.
It doesn't matter how nice your constitution looks.
And didn't our founder say that?
Michael, didn't they say that our constitution is fit and good for only a moral and religious people?
Yeah.
Because, essentially, you don't give freedom to a bunch of, you know, pedophilic murderers in prison.
Why?
Well, because they'll do bad things with that freedom.
They can't tolerate, they can't wield their freedom in a fruitful way.
That's right.
That's right.
Europe.
The casting couch is still the primary route to success in Hollywood.
Primary route.
The casting couch is still the primary route to success in Hollywood.
Primary is the word here that gives me some trouble.
Primary route.
In Hollywood.
So we're not talking about showbiz that takes place outside of Hollywood.
Yeah, we're not talking about the Kendrick Brothers and the movies that they make.
We're talking about Dirty, Nasty, Rotten, Gamora by the Sea.
I would say, you would say yes.
Not casting aspersions on anyone who's in it necessarily, but it just is a systemic matter.
That's right.
We only have a broad brush here.
We don't have any little ones.
I would say yes, I think that is.
It's interesting.
I had an interview on a show that I do with a guy named J. Warner Wallace, and he is a homicide detective, cold case homicide detective, who has investigated more people on Dateline than anyone else, and he's solved dozens and dozens and dozens of cases that are 10 years old, 20 years old, cold.
And he wrote a book, and fascinating discovery.
He said, I have found that of every single cold case that I have solved, all of the motives came down to one of three things.
It was sexual lust, financial greed, or power.
Checks out.
And I was like, everyone?
He's like, yeah.
Every single one of them came down to that.
And it drove people to murder.
And I just thought it was interesting.
We're talking so much about the scriptures.
That lines up perfectly to me with the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.
And you see Jesus tempted in the wilderness and in those areas as well.
And so I think in Hollywood...
This is the land of make-believe, the land of pretend, and the land that is driven by popularity, pride, finances, and sex.
I mean, that's what we produce.
That's what we peddle.
It's what we pump out to the world.
And if you want to look at why people in other countries would call America so wicked and immoral, you don't have to look much further than Hollywood.
They're not looking at Peoria or something.
That's right.
And when the opportunity is there, and I remember as a 14-year-old in Hollywood on Growing Pains, these documentaries have come out.
I can't remember the name of it, but In the Shadows, Lurking in the Shadows with the Kids.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, some of the people in that documentary, turns out they were my stand-in.
He was my stand-in.
Really?
For years and years and years.
Now, we always wondered.
We had question marks, but you'd never assign something as wicked as that to somebody.
But now that I look back, I go, wow, all the signs were there, and thank God I was not a victim.
But the opportunity is there for every deadly sin.
And Certainly, at the end of the day, the casting couch is a primary tool for the pleasure of those who are in power.
But you find that in politics too, right?
Sure.
We look at Epstein and we look at all this stuff.
We see that's just where it's at.
There's that mall.
I don't know if it's still present, this statue.
But it's on Hollywood and Vine, I think, or right around there.
Right by, you can see the Hollywood sign in the background.
And there's just a big monument of a couch.
On the rooftop of the mall.
I remember seeing it years ago.
I was out in Hollywood.
I thought, wow, man, that's a little on the nose, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, I'm up.
The 2020 election was rigged.
I'm guessing what you're going to think?
Yeah.
The 2020 election was rigged.
Am I guessing what you would say publicly or what I think you really think?
What do I really think?
Ben, what does YouTube allow me to confirm or deny?
Am I...
Do we have fact?
Does Ben fact-check?
I can say, yeah.
Ben says I'm allowed to.
Wait a minute.
I know what's going to happen.
If this was actually moderated by ABC, we would be stopped already, and we would already fact-check.
Excuse me, excuse me, Mr.
Cameron.
I think you mean, I would say, I would say, you get the point.
I get the point.
You get the point, yes.
How about my answer is just, at least.
Let's call it at least.
At least.
We'll leave it there.
You're up.
No, I think you're up.
Aren't you up?
No, you're up.
You're up.
A man piercing his ears is more sus than a man playing a half-gay dude at a Yale student film.
Okay, here we go.
In a Yale student film.
I've played like 200 roles in my life.
They always bring up the one half-gay guy I played in a Yale thesis film.
How are you half-gay?
Well, because the guy...
Look, it's been a while since I was in this random student film.
But the guy...
I don't think he was a fully gay guy.
He was just like...
Is it the character you're playing?
Yes.
Yes, thank you.
It was a character I was playing.
This was not a real biopic.
And you were not method actor at that time.
I was actually trained in a kind of technical acting.
Okay.
Stell Adler School and all that stuff.
But I didn't...
There was no kissing.
There was no nothing.
Okay, this was wholesome by the standards of Yale.
But...
Hold on.
Now, again, remind me, I'm answering for you?
I'm answering for you.
It is a man piercing his ear is just more sus.
Well, it depends on, at least back in the day, I remember, it was, if a guy had a, this was like the 90s, right?
If a guy had a piercing on his left ear, it was okay.
But if it was his right ear, he was a gay guy.
But now everyone has like 300 piercings on their eyeballs.
Right, because I pierced my ear.
Wow.
I pierced my ear.
But your left ear.
I purposefully went for the left ear.
Yes.
I didn't want people to think that I was trying to communicate a different message.
My mom didn't talk to me for three days.
Really?
She really didn't.
I was in Hawaii doing this episode of Growing Pains, and me and a few of my buddies, I think a couple of them got a tattoo, and I got a pierced ear.
And I used to have this really obnoxious crystal ball with a cross hanging down below that I would wear on Sundays only to church.
And I thought I was really cool.
So this is my answer?
I've got an answer for you.
A man piercing his ears is more sus than a man playing a half-gay dude in a Yale student film.
Oh, they're both so normal now.
Now the only thing is, you would have to play a fully gay dude in a Yale film.
I think if you were doing a film at Yale, half-gay is too straight.
Yeah, yeah.
I think your answer is...
No.
A pierced ear is not more sus than playing a half-gay guy at Yale.
In no small part because.
Even take the half-gay guy out of it.
A man piercing his ear is not more sus than really any graduate of Yale, period.
There you go.
Well, that's a good point.
That's a good point.
And I don't really think that that's, I don't think a guy with a pierced ear is making me super sus.
Yes.
No, at this point, no.
Everyone has, I'm one of the few people in America is not pierced.
Yeah.
I don't, maybe I could do like the eyebrows or nose.
Yeah.
Something like that.
I don't understand this one.
This one's bad.
I've never seen this work out.
It's always someone super into really bizarre lib stuff.
Even this one, I see perfectly normal people.
The ears, whatever.
But the bullhorn thing.
Does it signify something?
I'm saying I don't understand it.
I guess I understand ornaments and decorations.
But this one, does it mean something different than this or this?
It seems like a bullhorn.
To me, it signifies you are...
Enslaved to something, basically.
Traditionally, that seems to be what you think of as cattle or something like that.
People who are not always aware...
They're not doing that to themselves.
They're not associating that themselves, are they?
People, though...
You know, sometimes people engage in signs and symbols.
By the way, I'm not even trying to be personally snarky right now.
No, no.
I'm not at all.
I'm genuinely curious.
I've never actually asked somebody.
You know, it's like how the man who sins is a slave to sin, and if you're free in Christ, you have his yoke upon you, but his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
But there is a yoke.
It's the yoke of Christ, righteousness.
And people fall into servitude without thinking it.
They think it's freedom.
I think they think that putting a bullhorn makes them really free and liberated, just like they think that committing any number of sins makes them free and liberated, but it doesn't.
It does not.
Signs and symbolized have a connection.
All right.
Oh, it's my turn.
Hold on.
All right.
Hold on.
Ben reminded me.
This is not fair.
See, you're like the political candidate in the presidential election that has the little speaker in your ear.
And I don't.
By the political candidate, you mean Joe Biden in that debate.
Yeah.
I don't want to say any names.
Yeah, yeah.
I know.
I've got to hide this better.
I can't even see it.
They did a great job.
See, I should have been somewhere about it.
Now that I'm a grandfather and I need a hearing aid eventually, I need that.
You need to hook me up with the right one because I can't even see it.
Any wife with a social media presence is technically not a trad wife.
Not traditional if she has a social media presence.
- No answer for me.
I'm gonna answer for you.
Any wife with a social media presence is technically not a trad wife, a traditional wife.
Before you answer, I'll drink.
I need a drink too because I got to ramp up my RPMs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not saying, if you have some kind of lurker Twitter account or something, or if you are on Twitter to get recipes or something, or Instagram, but women who have a social media presence, they're like taking pictures of themselves.
That was the key phrase to me, was social media presence.
Yeah, it's not possible to be a trad wife, I think, if you are like an Instagram person.
Why not?
Because you are essentially public facing, so in the traditional scheme of things, the husband is public facing, the wife is more in charge of the home economy and the private life of the family.
He's the outside, she's the inside.
Yeah, basically.
And they're complementary in that way.
You need both, but that's traditionally how it's done.
And I think if a woman's posting a lot of selfies, if she's married, She is seeking validation.
Or at the very least, she is wittingly or unwittingly attracting attention from men who are not her husband.
And that's not very trad.
That's not good for anybody.
Look, call me a knuckle dragger.
Call me backwards, whatever.
That's just how it is.
Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it?
The culture that we are in today is the only culture that many young men and women have ever known.
They've never not known selfies.
And taking pictures of yourself in the mirror with your own camera and then sending it to not just your friends, but everybody in the world, that is a very bizarre concept to those of us who grew up in the 1980s.
Yeah.
Even the 90s.
I couldn't have even imagined what someone would have thought of me if I took my own camera, and I took a picture of myself, and I sent it to all my friends.
They would think I was a narcissist.
You were a famous actor since you were a kid, and even still, that idea is crazy.
It is.
Yes.
I've habituated to it, and I take selfies when I'm with my family, or even if I'm just promoting a book like this or something else, I'm like, hey, I'm on the Glenn Beck Show, or I'm with Michael Knowles.
Because our society is that way and my job sort of depends on it.
Yeah, yeah.
But when you step back and think about it, it's really strange.
Yeah, yeah.
And you're saying in the context of being a mother.
Yeah, yeah.
You're not a trad wife.
I'm not a trad wife.
You're a public figure who obviously...
You're right.
So it's a different category.
But if you're a woman, like just...
Taking pictures of yourself because you think you look really good and you want all these people to see it.
Look, I understand there's a culture, especially for single women, but if you want to be a trad wife and mom, ain't not a lot of selfies in that culture.
So I guess I want to say this because...
I guess I want to exonerate myself a little bit here.
Or something.
Is that the right word?
I think so.
That's a big word.
I like it.
I said eradicate once.
It got me in a lot of trouble.
But exonerate's a better word.
So I can't judge the motive of anybody's heart and why they might be taking a selfie.
However, I like what you said when you said...
Traditionally, for the trad wife and the trad husband, that the husband is outward-facing.
He's looking for the threats.
He's protecting.
He's providing.
He's the tough external.
She's the tender heart.
She's the nurturer of relationship.
Hand that rocks the cradle.
It's the hand that rules the world.
That's the soft, the interior.
And...
Jordan Peterson has interestingly said that human beings can sort of lean on a personality spectrum, more masculine, more feminine, within the categories of male and female.
It's not like every dude is like a cage fighter and every woman is, right?
Some of us are like Conan the Barbarian, but other men are a little...
But we can't.
That's right.
But anyway, I think it's super interesting.
It's fun having these conversations with you.
And I think actually what Jordan really said was, Every man exists on a spectrum of...
I'm working on my Canadian.
It's not perfect.
It's so good.
I'm working on it.
I'm not...
I need more acting training.
But you know what you need to combine that with is some tears.
You're right.
And that's what my acting lesson...
I need to think about, like, the lobster or something.
You know, like, create a life with the lobster.
Yes, yes, yes.
You're on.
Courageous is better than fireproof.
Wow.
Now, just for the watching, listening audience, these are both movies.
Courageous and Fireproof were made by the Kendrick brothers.
They're Christian films.
One was about fatherhood parenting, the other was about marriage, and I was in Fireproof.
Yes, yes.
Courageous is better than Fireproof.
Yeah.
No, because the problem with, I'm just going to answer for me, not even for you.
The problem with Courageous is that the script was great.
The direction I thought was great.
Producers did a fabulous job.
A number of the actors were terrific in it.
There's just this one actor.
I thought you were going to say there was this one actor in Fireproof that really just enthralled you.
No, no.
Forget about Fireproof for a second.
This is more a negative vote, I would say.
A young actor in Courageous made an absolute mockery of the entire acting profession and may have...
Led people to question their innermost beliefs.
So because of Ben Davies, your movie wins.
My movie wins.
Yeah.
I'm sorry, that was my opinion.
And then in your opinion, I think you agree.
You think I agree?
Yeah.
Well, I'm part of the Ben Davies fan club, actually.
I think he's actually quite a talented actor.
So I disagree with your reasoning, but my conclusion is the same.
I think fireproof.
Was a really good movie.
So I still get the point.
Yes.
Okay.
Yes.
And, you know, Fireproof was one of those films that I think may be one of my favorites that I've been a part of.
And I can't tell you how many people have come up to me at meetings and just said things like, Dude...
Fireproof saved my marriage.
I was that guy.
And that's what I appreciate about the Kendrick movies, is that they often script characters that are the portrayals of so many relatable people.
You can see yourself in one of the characters of their films, and in Fireproof, so many guys felt that way.
I'm a hero at work.
Everybody thinks I'm doing a great job, except my wife.
I come home, and I can't do anything right.
Yeah, yeah.
And it's all my fault.
And then he sort of devolves into the base responses to not getting what he wants.
And then it just goes downhill from there.
But then the turnaround and the comeback was so inspiring that men went out, they got the book, they took the 40-day challenge, and they said, it changed my life and it saved my marriage.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I... I don't know if Courageous ever did that, but I know firsthand that Fireproof did for some.
That is great, because that's a real problem.
I think, I don't know, maybe most guys at some point in their marriage probably deal with something like that.
And I will say, I hate to make a sincere point about Mr.
Davies and his acting.
I was at a school one time, I forget which school it was.
And some crazy lib student was willing to sit down and talk after one of the speeches.
And she did it because somewhere deep down in her Christian upbringing or something...
She was a huge Ben Davies fan.
Really?
Yes.
And actually, he was like her favorite actor.
And so somewhere there, that was still kind of resonating a little bit.
Yeah.
I wonder if he ever was a centerfold in a Tiger Beat movie.
In the 1980s.
You know, Ben, can you confirm or no, you weren't?
Wow, amazing.
That's incredible.
Well, the guy in Fireproof was.
He was.
Yeah.
But that was really cool.
So she agreed to talk with you because of Ben Davis.
Yeah.
And that's the one good thing that guy ever did.
You know, it's really, it's incredible.
Wow.
So, yeah.
How do I become a second?
I don't know.
Hold on now.
You're up.
Vaccines are more dangerous than climate change.
Who's guessing?
You've got to guess for me.
Oh, vaccines are more dangerous than climate change.
Yeah, for sure.
You mean they're at all dangerous?
I didn't have to think.
There is even the possibility that they are dangerous?
Yeah, exactly.
That's like a free square on bingo.
Do I get to drink too?
You do, Chin Chin.
Is this the last question?
I think so.
Alright, so you ask the last one.
Okay.
How many vaccines do kids, are they getting nowadays by the time they're 18 years old?
I think it's 57 by age two months.
Is that all?
I think that's all.
You now basically, every spot on a baby that could be stuck with a needle, they basically get them.
And I'll tell you, when I was a kid, I was told vaccines are great, there's no problem, whatever.
And I started meeting people who were like, yeah, you don't really need like 100,000 vaccines.
I was at the hospital as my first kid, and subsequent kids too.
And the lady said, okay, we're going to give your kid the hep B vaccine.
Yeah, I remember that one.
The hep B vaccine.
Like, I got it when I was older.
I said, hep B, huh?
I said, yeah, yeah, protects against, you know, like, sexually transmitted diseases and Needles and stuff.
And I was like, yeah, I don't think my kid is going to any brothels or skid row or anything for now.
That's right.
They're three.
They're two.
It was a newborn.
It was a newborn baby.
Like, just fresh out of the oven.
I said, I think we're good.
And the actual answer that this nurse said to my wife was, well, I think my wife had to pull it out of her a little bit.
She goes, basically, you just want to give the baby the vaccine because you're saying my husband's cheating on me.
Or is it like an intravenous drug user or is hanging around with hookers?
And she's like, yeah, basically.
We're good, thanks.
I'm willing to vouch.
No heroin and no hookers will...
The effect on my child.
Can you imagine that?
Just say, hey lady, in this very vulnerable moment, this most beautiful moment probably in your married life since you've been married, I'm going to accuse your husband implicitly of cheating on you.
That's how crazy our medical industry is.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It's great.
And, you know, well, you're a father and I am too.
But all of this comes back around tenfold for us, me and my wife, when it comes to grandkids.
Because like you said, now it's however many dozens of needle sticks.
Yeah.
And there's all sorts of justifications.
And, you know, I know that you know this, but I was talking to my kids.
I said, kids, if ever...
You hear the phrase, we're here from the government and we want to keep you safe.
That's when you, all the radar should go up.
And the safety thing is everywhere.
You go into an airport, you go anywhere.
Most of the justification is we need to tax you more.
We need more of your money so that we can keep you safe from things that will kill you.
That's always the justification for more vaccines, more taxes, more this or that.
And I just think, wow.
We have to decide as a country, as a people, Do we want to take this risk and responsibility onto ourselves, or do we want to outsource our protection and sacrifice our liberties?
And we've got to decide, because we could be China really quick, or we have to do the hard work and we get to be free.
Right, right.
If Dr.
Fauci shows up knocking, hey, I want to make you safe, let's get out the bear spray, bolt the door.
That's right.
Which is a terrible thought, but we're here.
I get to read the last question.
Here we go.
I'm going to put your coffee.
Oh, yes.
I can properly guess.
I like this board, by the way.
It's pretty slick, isn't it?
This is pretty great.
Well, you too could have the game at your home if you just go to dailywire.com slash shop and get...
I like this.
I love this.
Freemasons worship demons.
Freemasons worship demons.
I'm now going to guess what you think.
I guess, yeah.
Yes?
Yes.
I'm guessing what Michael thinks.
What does Michael think about Freemasons?
Oh, no.
I'd guess what Kirk thinks.
Okay.
No, no, no.
You're right.
I'm guessing what you think.
Okay.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Freemasons worship demons.
That's a...
It's hardcore.
That's a hardcore absolute statement here.
Freemasons worship demons.
Um, ah.
The ah was what made me think your answer is yes.
Thank you.
You're not denying it.
You got a little smirk.
You know what's great about this so far is I have been honest the whole time.
I have not been changing my answers just to win this game.
I'm going to say...
They only venerate demons?
Hold on.
I'm going to say no.
And here's what I mean by this.
They very well may be worshipping demons.
I had a grandfather, who I told you about, was in World War II, who I love with all of my heart.
And boy, he was a good man.
And when I asked him what the deal was with his Freemasonry stuff, and he had his rabbit's foot that he was just buried with, and his apron and the whole thing.
Listen, some of my close friends are Freemasons.
And my grandfather was a Mason, as in the architectural type.
Yeah.
I mean, he was a construction worker.
Oh, really?
Oh, is he?
Oh, wow.
He was a construction worker.
And I asked Grandpa, what did you believe in?
Did you do like weird, funky stuff in the back rooms of, you know, in the temples and this and that?
What were you doing?
And I believe my grandpa told me the truth.
But back in the...
Back in the 40s and the 50s, he said, no, we were a fellowship of people, brothers, and we put our hand on the Bible.
And we did good things for people, and we love God, we love our country, and we love our family.
So I think in his mind, he started worshiping a demon.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Now, over time, things go from fringe and odd or eccentric, and then they get into the satanic and demonic.
So today...
I don't know what the heck they worship, but if they're not worshiping the true God, then I would say you are deeply in trouble and you're on the wrong track.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it because I legitimately have close friends who are Masons and they're great guys often.
Probably you pick your average Mason over your average person on the street in America today.
Probably they take morality more seriously.
So there's a lot to recommend it.
However, it's kind of to your point.
One of the reasons that the church has had a tough history with Freemasonry is because it's just kind of a substitute.
It's a new religion.
It's a different religion.
So it's got its own funeral rites.
It's got its own initiation rites.
It's got its own moral views.
And it's got its own views of God and the nature of God.
And so to your point, if you're a Christian...
I would recommend that you get into it.
Yeah, yeah.
That's basically my point.
Just in general, any time you are engaging in religious rituals or religious belief that is outside the scope of Christianity, you're putting yourself in a little bit of danger.
Would be my...
But do I get the point for that?
No, you don't get the point for that.
So who won?
I won!
Let's go!
Did you win?
Sorry, I wanted to be really more gracious about that.
Kirk, thank you so much.
You know it was a valiant fight.
It was a pleasure.
Cheers.
And Ben Davies, I want to thank you for putting all that whiskey into Kirk's coffee.
Kirk?
Go get this book.
Well, you don't need to get the book.
You wrote it.
Born to be Brave, how to be a part of America's spiritual comeback from truly one of the greats in our pop culture and really one of the great American figures to actually speak the truth and to live out his faith and do it in a really public way since the 1980s and has been doing it consistently.
