Michael Knowles DEBATES Pearl Davis | "Men Should Bow Out"
In this episode Michael Knowles goes head-to-head with renowned social commentator Pearl Davis in a thought-provoking debate on the relevance and significance of marriage for men in 2024. As society evolves and the traditional values surrounding marriage undergo significant transformations, Knowles and Davis delve deep into the merits and challenges of matrimonial commitment in the modern age, providing viewers with a multifaceted examination of what marriage means for men today.
#MichaelKnowles #PearlDavis #MarriageDebate2024 #ModernMarriage #MenAndMarriage #TraditionalValues #SocietalChange #MarriageDiscussion #ProgressiveVsConservative #CulturalDiscourse #MatrimonialCommitment #PersonalFulfillment #LegalImplicationsOfMarriage
But I'll see guys that take you guys' advice, and sometimes, you know, it ruins their life.
What would men do if they begged you for advice?
Again, I'm not in the business of telling men what to do, you know?
But I think you kind of are.
Well, what percent of women do you think are marriageable?
I think you're squirting the issue.
People are not going to return to marriage until you make the institution more fair.
Well, what they'll do is they'll return.
It doesn't matter what you say.
It doesn't matter what I say.
You guys have been preaching marriage for a decade.
And the rates of marriage have still been going down.
Why?
Because the cost is too high and the quality of women is too low.
How do you fix it?
Do you want to get married?
We have a lot of controversy around these parts.
You'll be shocked to hear sometimes people don't like us, they criticize us.
And yet...
We have found someone who I think is even more controversial and subject even to more criticism than we are in this building.
That would be my guest today, Pearl Davis.
Thank you for having me.
Pearl, thank you for coming on.
So I want to talk about the thing that you get in all sorts of trouble for, which is marriage and your prescriptions for men and women and your observations of modern life.
First though, I have to ask, You, first of all, are like 12 years old.
You're quite young.
A lady never tells, but you're quite young.
You burst onto the scene.
I think, if you're not the most controversial person on the internet, you're probably the most controversial person on Twitter.
Okay, yeah.
Twitter is funny.
How did that happen?
Gosh, it just happened so fast.
Well, it all started... I moved to London to play volleyball.
And essentially what happened was I started reacting to Red Pill content and I didn't understand why men were complaining about dating.
You know, I kept hearing like men complaining about dating.
So I ended up doing a panel show where I interviewed a thousand women about dating and relationships.
And I actually, I came to the point where I could see where the guys were coming from.
I had a second question too.
I wanted to know why don't men want to get married anymore?
You know, I grew up in a two-parent home.
My parents have been married for 30 years.
I didn't understand it.
And I came to find out that when men have children in this country, You know.
In this country, meaning the U.S.
In the United States, you know, they're not legally entitled to their children.
And I think it's the biggest issue that we're facing right now.
Single mother homes, they lead to school shooters.
You're more likely to commit crimes, drug deals.
Every problem in society comes from single mother homes.
And so, you know, what I found is that men are not getting married not because they don't want relationships, but because they fear divorce.
And divorce rates, I guess it's not that divorce rates are skyrocketing, in part because fewer people are getting married now, but you observed that divorce is, one could say is at the very heart of the political problem because marriage, the family, is the fundamental political unit.
So you crack that up, you're going to crack up society.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, I have a documentary coming out called Why Don't Men Want to Get Married Anymore, where it really dives into the problems as to why the institution of marriage is failing.
Okay, so that answers why men are reluctant to get married now.
Now, what do we do about it?
I think the first thing you need to do is switch the laws to make them more favorable and fair.
So, for example, the Tender Years Doctrine.
Do you know what that is?
The Tender Years?
No.
That assumes that the mother is the best one for the child under the age of 7.
In some states, it extends to 16.
That's an openly sexist law.
That's openly sexist.
But what do you mean by sexist?
Because, you know, sometimes people say sexist and I, you know, if they're referring to real misogyny or something, I don't like that.
But if they're saying men and women are different, I certainly hear that.
Well, they are different, right?
But what evidence do we have that the mother is the best one with the children?
Well... The kids are the most likely to be abused by the mother, not the father, by the mother.
That's a little unclear.
That's a little unclear because, for starters, you know, As you just acknowledged, the children are much more likely to be with the mother.
Not only in the case of divorce, but also in the case of a married couple with daddies at work.
But why?
So the way the laws are set up, it punishes men for being traditional.
When I say kids are more likely to be with their mothers, I just mean because even in a traditional family, I, daddy, am off at work right now and mommy is home with the kids.
So what's your point with that?
My point is that if, and the statistics are a little unclear about this, there was a number from HHS in 2009 showed that women are much more likely to abuse or neglect their children.
There's another number from last year from, I think it was the National Child Abuse and Neglect Data Set or something like that, which found that it's a little closer to equal.
Women still have a slight edge on abuse, but it's close to sexual parity.
But then when you factor in... Not the biological dad.
That includes stepdads.
Not the biological father.
No, that's biological father.
It is.
Which data set are you referring to?
Well, they've done comprehensive studies over the last hundred years.
But what do you mean by they?
Like, I'm referring to a very specific data set.
Okay, go ahead.
So, in that very specific data set, that would contradict the 2009 numbers from HHS, but nevertheless, it would still prove your point, which is that the women are slightly more likely, but then I guess my point is, right, the women in marriage and outside of marriage are much more likely to be with children all of the time.
Right, but then you would see the abuse numbers go down as women have spent less time with children.
So in the last 50 years, women have worked more.
Hold on, you're saying that children are more likely to be abused in a traditional family with mother and father, or you're saying single father and single mother?
I'm saying women are the most likely ones to abuse the child.
And even if you include, you think abortion's murder, right?
Yeah.
So, one out of three women's had an abortion.
I've seen some numbers that say one out of four, but the point is still the same.
If one out of four men committed murder, we would all be... Sure, though, yeah, I mean, abortion is murder, but also, you know, There's a lot that goes into that, because there are obviously... And so, I just couldn't... Sorry, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Well, you know, when we point to an issue like abortion, you know, obviously, yeah, that's a... That is murder.
It's not only morally synonymous, it's the same thing.
But then also, you know, the male abortionists are involved in the murder, the male legislators who pass... If I hire a hitman, I'm still responsible.
Sure, but so is the hitman.
He goes to jail, too.
Right, but there's far more women that are hiring a hitman than men performing the act.
Well, I guess in every abortion it's a woman who's procuring one.
Exactly, that's my point.
And so my point is that law is openly sexist.
It's sexist, but men and women are different, so shouldn't it be sexist?
Meaning, when a little baby calls out, a little baby is calling out for mommy, not daddy.
Now, I'm not saying this is good.
I think divorce is unacceptable in pretty much every circumstance.
But if there is going to be a divorce, It would seem natural for a little baby to be with the mother rather than the father.
Even if you look at infanticide, it's almost unheard of for men to ever commit it.
It's almost 100% the mother.
And that's my point.
That's contradicted by one study.
I don't think it's right that men are not entitled to their children.
It's 50% their DNA.
It's 50% their child.
Why are they not entitled to 50% custody?
They should be entitled to 100% custody within the context of marriage, which is indissoluble.
But to the point you just made, where you said, fathers don't kill their kids.
Again, I think statistics are basically fake, but if people are going to cite them, I'm happy to cite them when they buttress my argument.
And there was a study that came out in 2017, I think, from Forensic International Science, something like that, which showed that 57% of the time in cases of killing offspring, it's the fathers who do it, not the mothers.
Now again, I'm sure that one can put some other statistics to the other side.
Right, and you can go into the abortion stats too.
And obviously abortion.
My whole point is that I think that men should be entitled to their children.
I don't think it's fair the way the system is.
You know, regardless of where you fall, it's not fair that women get custody 90% of the time.
It's not fair that men are always paying alimony, they're always paying child support, and that they're punished for being traditional.
Because the more time they spend providing for their family, the way they calculate it in child support is they kind of do a, you know, a gotcha.
You know, you did the right thing.
You provided for your family.
Why are you punished in child custody cases?
You didn't do the right thing if you got divorced.
Right, but it's filed by women 70-80% of the time.
It goes even higher, actually.
It goes even higher.
If women are, you know, college educated.
If women are college educated.
But I guess this is the key, Pearl.
To me, this is the key.
Because, you know, the liberals love to say, see, college educated women, they favor liberal policies.
Which is true, but I don't think that college education signifies a particularly strong education.
To me, it's clearly a sign.
Of liberalism.
So then, you know, I don't mean to blame the victim here if I'm talking about the men, but it would seem to me if you don't want to get divorced, not marrying a liberal woman is a good place to start.
If the more liberal women are, the more likely they are to divorce.
It's almost like a truism, right?
It's like saying the more likely a woman is to support divorce, the more likely she is to divorce.
Well, then why would a man marry a woman who would support divorce?
Well, what percent of women do you think are marriageable?
What do you mean by marriageable?
Not, no tattoos, no debt, not overweight, doesn't openly hate men.
It's not the majority, Michael.
What's the number?
These are confirmed by an actuary.
It's less than 5%.
Which actuary?
Like, what study is this?
It's called It's a World Without Men.
It's a study, or it's a blog, or a book, or what is the world without it?
It's a book.
It's a book, and they go through the numbers that are confirmed by an actuary.
So I saw that book.
I saw that book.
But you know this, Michael, even in real life.
You go on the Whatever podcast.
I mean, you see Fresh and Fit Miami.
And I've interviewed a thousand women.
A thousand.
I've interviewed Christian women, I've interviewed Catholic women.
So I saw that book.
And I've interviewed, I've been on the other side of divorce.
And I've seen men that did exactly, they did the right thing.
But I'm skeptical of your number here because, look, I'm not, it's a crazy world.
The women have crazy colored hair, they have tattoos, they do crazy stuff.
But I saw that book.
Maybe you had mentioned it or someone on the internet mentioned it.
And I didn't know, was it a study?
Is it a this or is it a that?
And it's this book by a blogger who does not really... No, he's an economist.
So I read the book.
I would encourage people to take a look at the book.
I open up the book.
The first sentence of that book, there is one mistaken quotation and three grammatical errors in the first sentence.
And then I looked for the 5% number.
The 5% figure appears nowhere in the book.
So again, I'm not saying that the world is teeming with women who are traditional.
Would you agree it's the minority?
Who are marriageable?
Yeah, the minority.
Even if we look at just overweight.
No, I don't.
70% of women.
I don't think we're overweight.
Sometimes I think you guys are so out of touch.
I don't think we're overweight.
70%, you want a fat wife?
It's like, come on!
No guys, this is what you're telling men to sign up for?
That's my point.
It's not the majority.
And when is the last time you dated?
Like 10 years?
You've been married for a while.
So sometimes you talk and I just think you're a bit out of touch with the current dating market.
No, that's fair.
You're saying, I never swiped, I never did any of these things.
I'm saying, I've interviewed a thousand women.
I could give you examples in real life too.
I mean, that's a ton of people, Michael.
Sure.
I have no doubt that the dating pool is difficult now.
And the problem is that the state is the legal enforcement arm.
That's by definition.
Correct.
So there's no way for a man to get married in 2024 without being entered into the state contract.
But that's always true.
And so I understand, but I understand men's hesitation when the quality of women has gone down.
I don't tell men not to get married or like what to do.
I think every man has to decide for themselves.
But I don't think you're going to win a lot of support I think you have to understand the problem in order to come up with a solution.
So you are telling men, at the very least, you're observing that it is not advisable today in 2024 to get married.
I would say that every man has to pick for himself.
But I think objectively, if me and you sign a contract and one of us is paid to leave, you would never sign that business deal.
You would never sign it.
I did, right?
If you're saying that's the state of marriage now, I did get married, therefore I did sign it.
Okay, well, congratulations, but I think a lot of men are going to be hesitant to do that.
And you're saying it's rational for them to be hesitant?
Yeah.
So you're saying it's advisable.
No, not advisable.
But rational.
Okay, I'll give you an example.
You, I'm not here, I think men have had enough of women telling them what to do.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not telling men to do anything.
But I think your situation is going to be completely different than the average Joe making $45,000 a year.
If your marriage goes south, you have the money to afford lawyers.
I have the money, but I'm going to lose half my money.
What?
Do you think you're in the same position as the average man making $45,000 a year?
The answer is no.
The answer is no.
I don't think it's because of my money though.
You know what I think?
Because look, when I got married I didn't have a lot of money.
But now I have more money.
But I think there's a bigger distinction here.
Okay.
I am of a religious view and practice that does not recognize the reality of divorce.
Not only do we discourage it, you know I'm a mackerel snapping papist, a member of the Catholic faith.
I'm Catholic too.
You're Catholic also.
I'm also Catholic.
So, marvelous news.
And Catholics are not immune to divorce.
I have seen it.
I've seen people getting married for the second time, they still get communion, and the number of annulments is going up.
That's not licit.
That's a grave mortal sin.
I know.
But it doesn't matter because it happens all the time.
But you can, you know, it's like saying, you know, I see someone who calls himself a Catholic.
We have a record number of annulments this year in the Catholic Church.
You cannot, the Catholic Church is getting more, you see the Pope.
And I think we could agree on this stuff.
The Pope for, you know, all of the liberal statements that have appeared in the press under his name, the Pope is generally pretty good on matters of sex and marriage.
He's pretty clear.
When you say, you know, Catholics get divorced, it has happened.
There's a distinction between them.
It's around, I looked it up before this, it's around 25, 35.
Yeah, it's around 35%.
So that's not a small percentage.
What's the national average?
Like 45% roughly?
- Yeah, it's around 35%.
And so that's not a small percentage.
- What's the national average?
Like 45% roughly?
- Well, 2024 it was 50.
- Okay, so 50. - I know everyone splits hairs over like the five, 10%.
But regardless, it's not small.
So, what that means, then, is that if you're a man, and I totally grant that dating pool's tough, and the economy's tough, and divorce courts are terrible, and divorce laws are terrible, I grant all that.
But they should sign up anyway.
Well, before we even get to that, one way to mitigate one's risk in marriage, of divorce, Would be to be just any old Catholic, right?
Because you then reduce the likelihood of divorce by 16% immediately.
16 percentage points, much more than 16% from the 50% number.
So then, what if you're a Muslim?
Divorce rates among Muslims, even a little lower, 30%.
Divorce rates among Orthodox Jews, 30%.
There's a lot of different kinds of Jews, but it goes down to as low as 10%.
And then you get down to A little more of the old school Catholics, which is kind of how I practice.
There aren't great numbers on it.
Do you go to Latin Mass?
Traditional Latin Mass.
Okay.
The like.
That's a lot of patience.
But frankly, I find it— No, it's good.
It's good.
Latin Mass is a little better.
It seems like it goes faster than the shorter— No, it's a little bit better in the Latin Mass.
I'd agree.
But you know, when it comes to divorce, the numbers are a little sparse here.
It's like 5 to maybe 10%.
But the problem is with most of those stats, one, most of those studies were done before social media.
Anyone that dated before and after social media knows it completely changed the game.
How do you mean?
Well, women now have access to men anywhere.
And cheating goes up.
The number one way people are meeting under 30 is dating apps.
I mean, this is a completely different dating marketplace than when you were dating.
And that's my point.
When I was dating people.
There's no Catholic woman in divorce court.
Women will throw out their religion very, very fast when they want to leave.
You cannot pray a woman that wants to leave you into not leaving you.
Don't the statistics I just cited show that you can?
No, but the problem with those is they include women over a certain age.
The women under the age of 35.
You're saying it's different?
Yes, it's completely different.
Yeah, I don't know.
And I think you can't really deny it with what you've seen.
If you go on whatever podcast, are those the same women of our grandmothers and great-grandmothers?
No, it's completely different.
There's not a ton of Orthodox Jews and traditional Catholics on that podcast, and perhaps there's a reason for that.
And if, and you know, you gotta ask like the reputation, what's the reputation of Catholic girls?
Well, what do you mean?
I mean, again.
That's my point.
My point is, they have, if there was an abundance of wives in church, Michael, the men would be lining up to go.
But they do, at the traditional churches.
Men are leaving the church.
Under the age of 35, young men, you know, church participation is going down altogether, but young men are leaving the church.
But what about the traditional parishes?
The traditional parishes— They're exploding, and it's all young people.
I mean, the median age is like 22 in these parishes, and it's largely young men.
So, I totally grant you that a lot of modern religion has become quite effeminate and has driven men away.
Right, but I'm saying the Catholic Church is not exempt.
It's absolutely not exempt.
I've seen a lot of the same trends in the Catholic Church.
I guess my confusion is, though, you bring up these statistics, and so then we acknowledge the statistics that show that if one, you know, gets married, assuming that divorce is not a sacramental reality, that the likelihood of divorce goes way down.
But then when we say that, you instantly say, well, actually now the statistics aren't worth anything because young people are different.
Wait, say that again?
Sorry.
So, we agree that The numbers for Catholics, Jews, Orthodox Jews, and Muslims, divorce numbers are way lower.
And you acknowledge those statistics, but then you say- No, I don't.
No, I don't.
You don't?
Okay.
No, because most of those include women over a certain age.
Right.
You're saying the young people, it's totally different.
It's a different time, Michael.
And that's the same thing.
The time my parents got married in is completely different than the time today.
So what changed?
So they meet on apps rather than at bars, and that's the big change?
That's why we can't believe the statistics anymore?
Well, the average marriage is seven years now, Michael.
Right, but we've had divorce, expanded divorce for a long time.
We've had no-fault divorce in America since 1969.
So, you know, I acknowledge these are, by historical standards, relatively novel, but we're still talking like 50 years, right?
More than 50 years.
I don't, you know, I just think a lot of times I hear you guys' advice to go to church and find a good woman, and I don't necessarily think it's bad advice in general.
But, again, I think that times have changed, and I think a lot of times you guys are a bit out of touch with what the average man is going through in this country.
Well, what do you mean by the average man, I guess?
Men come in all shapes and sizes.
Do you think men have valid fears in getting married?
Do you think any of it's valid?
Or do you think they're making it up?
Yeah, I think marriage entails risk.
Okay, okay.
But there are ways to mitigate risk.
And it's a natural institution.
Correct, correct.
There are ways to mitigate risk.
But, like, because I don't know, when you talk about this stuff, you guys are just... Sorry, I don't mean to say you guys, but... Please, generalize, it's okay.
But sometimes I'm just like, how do you not see where the men are coming from?
You know, I've talked to men that did the exact same thing.
They took you guys' advice to a T.
What's our advice?
I've seen a lot of stuff from the Daily Wire.
Might be you, might be other guys that say get married young, right?
But I'll see guys that take you guys' advice and sometimes, you know, it ruins their life.
Because they get divorced.
Yeah, and the divorce isn't like, the woman ruins their reputation.
Calls him an abuser, says all these awful things.
He hasn't seen his kids in two years.
It's awful.
And it's the saddest thing when you see a man that's going through a divorce.
So what's the alternative though?
Because I totally agree with you about the risk and the pitfalls of modern marriage.
Well, I think that the laws need to change first.
Because regardless of what I say— Before people get married?
Well, it's not about what I say.
It's about what people will do.
You guys have been preaching marriage for a decade.
Men aren't signing up.
No, men still get married.
No, but the rate of getting married is going lower.
Less and less men are getting married.
We redefined marriage at the federal level.
We've also had divorce for 50 years.
Correct.
No, you're right.
But I'm saying laws need to change.
Personally, if it was Pearl's World, and I think you're probably going to have to find somewhere that meets in the middle for something to pass, but if it was Pearl's World, I wouldn't have alimony.
I wouldn't have child support.
I don't think you're entitled to it.
Yeah, I would certainly eliminate no-fault divorce, and I would greatly restrict divorce broadly.
Yeah, but I think until you do that, you're going to have a hard time getting men to sign up, you know, until women get in shape.
You know, if 70% of women are overweight, that's not a great sell to men.
You know, 80% of women gain 20 pounds in the first five years of marriage.
Sure.
Yeah, that's no good.
They should stay fit.
Well, no, they should gain a lot of weight to have children.
They should gain so much weight because they're having children.
But this is my point.
You know, you're not going to appeal to men by shaming them into marriage.
I'm not shaming anyone.
I'm just recommending it because it's a natural institution.
But I've heard you guys say things like you're not like a real man if you don't get married.
I've heard this from the trad cons.
That's not exactly true because some men are called to religious life.
Some men are called to celibacy.
Right.
But the ones who are not are called to marriage.
Not merely because it's sort of fun, though it's fun, but because it's a natural institution.
Because men have certain ends, we have certain goals, right?
So one of them would be, we want to have children.
This is not just a preference, you know, degustibus non despotandum est, this is an aspect of the natural law.
But don't you think they should follow their purpose in God first?
That is part of their purpose.
Okay.
No, I don't think so.
I don't think men's purpose is women.
I think men's purpose is... No, having children is their purpose.
Well, why?
Why is that their purpose?
Even the Apostle Paul said it's better to be alone, or not the Apostle Paul, but it's even in the... The Apostle Paul was celibate, yeah.
But... But, well, to mention... Sorry, I'm getting... No, no, the Apostle Paul was celibate.
Yeah.
But since you mentioned Christianity, it's important to remember our Lord is the bridegroom.
The Church is the bride.
So, from the Christian perspective, marriage is understood to be a symbol of Christ's love for His Church.
Now, that's the supernatural perspective.
But that's not how it's practiced today.
In some quarters it is.
But you can say my special religion, here's the exception, it's not across the board.
No, my true religion that built our entire civilization, that's what I'm talking about.
I'm a Catholic too.
Well, I'm just describing to you the Catholic view of marriage, which is different than the view you're arguing.
But it's not the way that Catholics are doing it if we have 25% getting divorced.
That's not a small number.
It's not the way that 25% are doing it.
It's really 35%.
I try to be conservative because I don't want to go back and forth.
But to that point, Pearl, Joe Biden calls himself a practicing Catholic.
He supports killing infants in the womb up until the moment of birth as a matter of law.
But we get into a tricky territory when you get to play God and decide who's a Catholic and who's not.
I'm not playing God and I don't decide the Magisterium, but the Deposit of Faith does, the Magisterium does, Sacred Scripture does, the Vicar of Christ does, and on this point all are clear.
And by the way, I'm not even talking about marriage necessarily from a supernatural perspective, though I certainly view it that way.
But there's also the natural perspective, which is that there is, you say men should follow their purpose and should follow God, I of course agree.
So, how do we know our purpose?
Men have, what, we have the Scriptures, we have Revelation, but we also have our conscience and reason.
And so there's something called the natural law.
And the natural law inclines us toward marriage.
Men and women are, by our very nature, inclined toward marriage.
You would disagree?
No.
You wouldn't disagree?
So, there you go.
No, no, no.
Well, sort of, sort of.
I think that in the current market, there are just not enough wives to go around.
There are not enough women that deserve to be wives, in my opinion.
Sure.
You'd agree on that, right?
I don't know exactly what you mean by that.
Maybe I would agree, but I don't know exactly what you mean by it.
Okay, do you think men should have standards?
Yes.
Do you think it's okay for them to want a woman that's in shape?
Do you think that's an okay standard?
Yeah, that's good.
Okay, a girl that's religious.
Would you say that's good?
Okay.
But that's not the majority.
That's not the majority.
So what are men supposed to do in the meantime?
You're supposed to convince the women to get in shape and get religious.
Good luck.
I've done it for a year.
Good luck.
Maybe the men would be more persuasive than you would.
Good luck.
I don't know.
Did the OnlyFans models quit that you interviewed?
I don't know if that, you know, I've only interviewed a few on whatever.
No, those are the shows, that's the point.
I mean, miracles happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.
There are a couple of gals who have written into my show, not from the Whatever podcast, but who were watching my show, and you know, really watching in the member block and everything, who were both like online Oh, that one?
to some degree.
And one said she was gonna quit.
I kinda lost track of her in the show.
Another one quit, had a major conversion.
And you know, what a wonderful evidence of the glory of God.
- Oh, that one?
Was it the one on Twitter? - Yes. - Yeah, her OF link was still up.
So a lot of times-- Someone said that that was true.
Her OF link was still up.
Yes, it was.
I checked it.
I didn't see it.
Yes, it was.
I'm positive.
She posted it and showed that it wasn't still up.
It was still up.
I don't know.
She seemed pretty sincere to me.
But in any case, are you denying the principle that people can change?
Yeah, I mean, God can forgive you, but men don't have to.
I'm not talking about forgiveness.
I'm talking about repentance.
Repentance is good, but I wouldn't say that makes her wife worthy if you still used to have an OF account.
You would agree that men, in general, should not date women that had OnlyFans accounts.
It's not ideal.
I don't think it's disqualifying.
You can't definitively say that a woman... Okay.
I don't think it's disqualified.
I mean... Well, I just... I think you're going to have a tough time selling guys on that.
I'm not convinced of it.
I mean, you know, to quote Saint John Bianni, the saints didn't all start well, but they all ended well.
So I wouldn't recommend that people get involved in porn in any way.
But there's also, you know, on the men's side of things, men are in a little rough shape because of our modern culture too.
A lot are addicted to porn, a lot have hooked up with a lot of people, a lot have kind of indulged perversions and things like that.
It doesn't make them particularly marriageable either.
But why is it whenever we say something about the women we have to say about men?
Well, because it's an observable fact, and marriage involves men and women.
I know, but all I'm saying, you know, Michael, all I'm saying is don't date, like, it's just crazy sometimes.
I just, I get so curious, because I say, men shouldn't date women that used to have OnlyFans.
That shouldn't even be an argument.
Yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
I mean, again, it's not ideal.
You wouldn't date a woman with an OnlyFans.
I wouldn't date any woman now because I'm happily married.
No, but if you were single, right?
You wouldn't do that.
It would be an obstacle.
It would be such a big obstacle you wouldn't do it.
But that's the problem.
I interview guys that are dating a girl for six months.
They find out she used to have an OnlyFans account.
These are real things that happen.
Sure, yeah.
Look, it's not ideal.
Though, frankly, again, to your point, I've been out of dating for a long time.
But these days, can one find a girlfriend?
I mean, I assume it can happen.
But in modern, kind of liberal, secular dating, can one find a girlfriend who's never texted a naked picture of herself?
I don't know.
Women do this all the time now.
And then it becomes a big scandal when they get... Yeah, so do those women deserve to be wives?
I don't know that we deserve much of anything, but ought we to do it is my question.
That's my point, is the women of today are not the women of yesterday, and it's becoming more and more difficult to find the women that you're talking about, and there are not enough to go around.
That's my point.
Sure, but you're framing this as a question of who deserves to be married, but my framing of it is what one ought to do, that marriage is a natural end of our nature.
I don't deal in oughts, I deal with what is.
Not what I want the world to be.
But the is of our nature implies an ought in our actions.
But it's not about what we want it to be, Michael.
It's about what the world is now.
No, I'm just saying how people ought to behave.
And they ought to get married, is what I'm saying.
Which is implied by our nature, which is the is.
Because at the very least, Pearl, you would say, people want to have kids, right?
I mean, if women wanted to have kids so bad, why are they killing them?
Like, crazy.
Yeah, there's a lot of abortionists that are dreadful.
But I'm just saying people in general, you would admit, want to have kids.
Sometimes.
Sometimes they do and they don't.
I mean, women aren't having kids like they used to.
I talk to women all the time that say they don't want to have kids.
People, yeah, they say it's unfortunate.
People say a lot of those things.
And that's where it's going.
But half of women are going to be single and childless by 2030.
What about these men?
That's the way the world's going.
The men you're talking about, the men want to have kids, right?
Or no, they're also degenerates?
Everyone's just a degenerate now?
Men want marriage relationships and families.
Men want that in general.
But there are obstacles now that make it increasingly difficult for men to do that.
One is that...
Yeah, yeah.
It's really common.
So you would sacrifice having children?
One is that the women are increasingly lower quality.
They've gained weight.
The body count numbers are up.
Buy them a StairMaster.
I don't know.
Get them a gym.
Oh, good luck.
You know, I tried to pay a girl to lose weight.
I swear to God I did.
Because she came on my show.
No, I swear.
And I said, because she was really fat, and I told her to.
And I was like, I'll pay for your training.
And I said, I'll give you a cash prize.
I said, I'll give you $3,000 if you lose weight.
That's a ton of money.
She can do it.
She can stick to it for a month.
Do I get the offer?
Well, you look like you're in shape.
Stop it.
Come on.
But that's my point.
One obstacle is that the women are lower quality.
The benefits are not the same.
Most women are not raised to be traditional wives and mothers, and the cost is getting higher.
Divorces are getting more expensive.
Weddings are getting more expensive.
They don't need to be, but they are often.
I agree, but it's not about what I want the world to be.
I'm Catholic too, and I think there's awesome things about the Catholic Church.
That's a big but.
It's never good to say, I'm a part of this religion, but.
No, but it doesn't mean everyone's following it.
It doesn't mean that's the norm.
And I'm talking about what the world is, not what I want it to be.
But it's not just what you want it to be.
I'm saying, like, if I'm a young man, and I'm acknowledging a lot of the things you're saying, that's tough dating out there.
But look, I want to have kids.
I want to have a family.
Are you, I know you say you don't want to give men advice.
No, I say, I say every man, you have to decide for yourself.
But let's say the man came to you and said, Pearl, I know what you, but I don't care what you want, I demand.
Why do I have to be in these hypothetical situations?
Well, we're just discussing a concept in the abstract.
And so, and I think you're kind of sneaking around giving advice.
Because I think you're saying, look, through my reason I've arrived at this conclusion about what's rational and advisable, but I'm not giving advice.
So let's get through all that.
Let's say the man comes to you and says, Pearl, give me the advice, should I get married?
Are we reporters or preachers?
I'm just a writer and a talker.
But that's my point.
I'll give you an example.
Your options are going to be completely different than another guy's options.
Why?
Because I'm devilishly handsome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Devilishly handsome, you know.
That's not the case for every man.
Every man has to decide for himself.
Okay, do you think men should be extremely cautious when getting married?
I think they ought to be extremely prudent when getting married.
Not cautious.
I think courage is a virtue and the prerequisite for all the other virtues.
So I don't think men should be little wallflowers backing away from a challenge.
But they ought to be prudent.
They ought to use their judgment properly.
And so there are ways to mitigate risks within marriage.
But furthermore, they ought to get married because that is the way to achieve the very thing you're suggesting they ought to, which is their purpose.
What if no women want to get married?
Well, they do want to get married.
No, they don't.
Because women, when women have the most choice, we don't choose marriage.
Women have the most choice when it comes to commitment around the age of 22.
They're not choosing to get married.
I don't pay attention to what people say, I pay attention to what they do.
You mean when they have the most options, when they're the most marriageable.
Yeah, correct.
But you will acknowledge those women who have been duped by feminism.
Maybe even after they're past their prime marriageable age.
No, I don't blame it on feminism.
I look at it different.
I know women that have been raised in this culture that chose to get married at 22, waited till... I know women that did the whole, exactly what you're describing.
So it was based on the choice.
Every woman has choice.
Every woman has agency.
And they got married.
Yes, but there's also women that chose to go on OnlyFans.
Oh, yeah.
That's what I'm saying.
I'm just saying, I think those women tend to regret it.
But I'm saying, like, I don't like blaming your decisions on society because at the end of the day, you are responsible for the decisions that you make.
Right, but your education is responsible for forming the way that you think about things, including marriage.
No, but there's people in the same education and they make different decisions.
When I say, I mean education in the broad sense, meaning how people are raised, which gets to the point of marriage.
But I know there's people that are raised in bad environments and choose not to do that.
Everyone's got free will, Michael.
Sure, but we're also shaped by our social context and our educations.
Right, but you're responsible for the choices you make, right?
I'm a moral agent, certainly.
But I'm more morally free to act the more that I can discipline my lower passions and bring them into accord with my rational will, which is why I'm discussing marriage as a matter of reason.
So I guess the question you'd have to ask is, Even before we can say whether or not you want to give advice to men, but should they or shouldn't they, what is marriage for?
What's the point of it?
So what's the point of marriage?
I think that the point of marriage is to create a union.
It's supposed to be you are submitting to your husband's authority and you're creating a family.
And creating a family.
Yes, so it's forming a union with certain roles and, you know, a structure, and to create a family.
And do you think that's how it's being used today, for the average person?
For the average person?
Yeah, it forms a union, it creates a family.
The average marriage is seven years.
Yeah, but it's a union.
I mean, I think there's more to marriage than you described, but I think that those are some basics.
The average marriage is seven years.
Right, but that still forms a union and often creates a family.
That's why you're talking about the struggles in the courts court with kids.
Right, but it's supposed to be for life, not for now.
I agree with that.
And that's what I say, it's not about what ought to be, it's about what is today.
And right now, a man cannot have children in this country and not be signed up for the state contract.
That's always been true.
But my point is, why can't we change the laws first?
Because we live in time and space and you'll die alone without having had kids and without having a place of a family.
Why?
You guys are one of the most influential media networks.
We are.
We are.
And very persuasive.
Very powerful.
You guys are.
And yet we're not changing the divorce laws.
Try as we might.
It hasn't happened.
No, but you guys barely cover it.
I talk about it all the time.
What are you talking about?
I talk about marriage on my show probably every single day.
Right, but when we talk about specifics, like I was, you know, talking about the Tender Years Doctrine.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's like, even in California, if a woman, wait, wait, wait, if a woman lies about paternity of the child and it's not found out before the age of two, that man's on child support for life, even though that woman committed fraud.
And these are real things that happen in this country.
The man is on, if the father doesn't discover that he's not really the father.
Yeah.
Because he's acting basically as like a duped adoptive father or something like that.
Yeah, yeah, again.
Because the way the laws are is it goes in the best interest of the child, which generally means the best interest of the mother.
Right, but you do not need to convince me that the divorce laws are dreadful.
What you do need to convince me of is that men ought not to be married until the laws are changed.
Why do men have to sacrifice their security for women's security?
Women have made the choice to leave marriages.
Women have made the choice to collect alimony and child support.
Why do men need to sacrifice their security for women's?
Because it is good for men to be married and to have children.
It's not that they're forced or coerced, it's good for them.
But then why is the reputation of marriage so bad?
If this was a great product... Yeah, I don't think it's so bad.
I think it's the most popular institution in human history.
No, no, that's not true.
Because you're out of touch.
Why do we have phrases like, happy wife, happy life?
Why do we have phrases like, it's cheaper to keep her?
Why are those... These aren't made up, Michael.
Right, they're kind of funny little jokes about marriage, which is the enduring institution, the popularity of which is attested to by its permanence throughout human life.
But why do they ring true?
Why do they ring true?
They don't really ring true to me.
Happy wife, happy life.
Not to you, but we're not.
Happy wife, happy life is a recipe for a terrible marriage.
We agree.
Yeah, we agree.
But it's kind of a joke.
I mean, we make little jokes about that.
In the Henny Youngman line, take my wife, please.
I might use that line, but I don't mean it.
But why is that funny?
Why is that funny?
Because it rings true.
Because it's ironic.
Quite the opposite.
It's funny because it's ironic.
No, it's funny because this stuff rings true.
Yeah, it's true.
You bicker with your spouse sometimes.
That's the truthful part.
The ironic part is you don't actually want to give your wife away.
Take my wife, please.
Okay, well, but, okay, it's cheaper to keep her, that's a phrase, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Why does it exist?
It exists because divorce laws are so bad, and that's what the joke is about.
Okay, so again, if the marriage contract is so good, why do you have to convince men to sign up if they're getting such great benefits from marriage?
Because we live in a, the reason that we need to convince people to get married is because liberalism has inculcated in people an extreme individualism and an extreme subjectivism that disconnects their actions and their interests from reason and objective reality and the common good.
That's the actual reason.
And it's not just pertaining to marriage.
It pertains to building up wealth.
It pertains to duties that are owed to the family, to the community, and to God.
It pertains to all aspects of public life.
It's not just marriage, but because marriage is the fundamental political building block, you see it expressed there.
I'm not against marriage.
I think that you're going, men, regardless of what I say, because I'm not going to convince the entire country to get married, no matter what I say.
You don't seem interested in doing so.
Because I don't talk about what I want the world to be.
You talk about how dreadful marriage is.
I don't talk about, no, there's good marriages, Michael.
But marriage as we do it today is not marriage anymore.
Marriage as I do it is marriage.
I cannot fault men for being cautious.
And some men just aren't going to get married because the laws are too favorable to women.
And I think that's, you know, okay, I'm going to tell a story.
I want you to not interrupt me.
Okay.
Can you please not?
Anytime.
I would never interrupt a lady.
Okay.
So I do interviews of men that have been divorced often.
Okay?
And there was a guy I interviewed, and he married a Christian woman, okay?
Good, good Christian woman, no kids, not overweight, no tattoos, no glaring red flags, okay?
They have two children together.
And what happened was, one day he comes home.
And when he comes home from work, the wife has filed a temporary restraining order on him.
Women can get these just like that.
He's kicked out of his house.
No trial, no evidence, no nothing.
Okay?
Now, he has to wait, it's during COVID, so he has to wait a year, year and a half to even get to see his children.
Okay?
And even fight for them.
And by the time he gets to court, the mom's been in the kid's ear saying how terrible of a person he is.
Okay.
Now they go to court and they say to him, well, you haven't been in the kid's life for a year, year and a half, even though she lied about the abuse and they figured that out in court.
This man had, and I saw his court documents, text evidence that this woman was planning to do this to him.
In the year, he still had to pay the mortgage on the house.
He still had to pay child support in that year, year and a half period.
Goes to court.
Now, he doesn't get access to his children.
He hasn't seen his kids in Two years?
Michael, they live a mile from him.
That's awful.
A mile from him.
He's so stressed out, he loses his job.
Can you imagine going through that?
And he's an average earner.
He's not like, you know, because I've interviewed men that make, you know, I interviewed a guy from Texas.
He spent 1.5 million on a divorce.
He got his kids every other weekend.
And Michael, the saddest thing that you see is a man, I've interviewed so many men that I would not be surprised if they committed suicide in the next year because the woman has completely ruined their reputation, she's called him an abuser, all of this stuff, so his friends, it's Completely different with his friends.
His kids think he's the bad guy.
He's out of money.
And he has to start over at 40, 45, 50 years old.
And men are nine times more likely.
What do you mean start over?
Start over as in money.
He has to start his life over.
They're wrecked.
They're wrecked.
And the problem is in family court, it's not based on evidence.
It is based on a balance of probabilities, meaning it is more likely that he did it than he didn't.
And women are not punished for falsely accusing men of abuse because they've changed the definition of abuse.
And these are, even if it's 5% of men that this happens to, let's say out of 100, this happens to 5%, even in the Christian churches.
You know, I would never, if I got on a plane, and there was a 20% chance of I get to paradise, and there was a 5% chance of it, Crashing.
I'm not getting on.
And you have to understand, this is death to a lot of men.
The idea that they can't see their kids that are a mile from them.
They're sending them money.
And Glenn, he's one of the guys that that happened to.
And, you know, he didn't, it's like a lot of these guys did everything that you guys say.
And when you guys say, get married young, a lot of these men don't know what they're signing up for, and you're not going to be there when their entire life falls apart.
I interview them on the other side.
And that's why when you just say, you know, just find a good Christian girl and get married.
That's not exactly what.
I'm paraphrasing.
But it's an important distinction.
When you say, which is the minority, that's not the majority of women.
We know that's not the majority of women that are praying every day, that are going to Latin Mass.
You know, I'm Catholic.
Most of the women I went to school with are not practicing now.
So, this is not the majority of women.
And, you know, I just don't think, I think sometimes you minimize the risk.
You know, out of every 100 divorces, And I know we were going to go back and forth on the numbers, but just trust me that I'm not making this up.
It's, 30% are malicious.
I think they're all malicious, actually.
No, no, I don't think, I don't say that.
And I'm not anti- I think divorces is always malicious.
Fair, fair.
But when I say malicious, I mean alienating the child or the father from the kids, putting them on child support.
I think that's intrinsic to divorce.
That's around out of every 100 divorces, around 13.
Again, I would say it's higher.
And that's not an insignificant number.
Men, you know, I interviewed a guy, he spent 1.5 million on a divorce.
He gets to see his kids every other weekend.
It's awful.
It's dreadful.
It's awful.
And that's why, you know, we could go back and forth about, you know, the numbers, but I've just, I've seen so many men on the brink of suicide and they didn't do anything wrong.
Yeah, well, I don't know that they didn't do anything wrong, but I agree, you know, the situation is just dreadful.
We all do terrible things and there before the grace of God go all of us because we're all sinners.
And, you know, the fact that something So what I would say to switch things, I think men shouldn't vote for either party.
that, well, there's no such thing as no-fault divorce, so there was fault somewhere.
But we agree so broadly.
I'm not exactly sure what we disagree about.
We agree that the divorce court system is dreadful.
We agree that the divorce laws are terrible.
We agree that modern dating is challenging.
But I guess-- - So what I would say to switch things, I think men shouldn't vote for either party.
Because neither party is taking their issue seriously.
I mean-- - The issue of divorce.
Where is mandatory DNA testing?
I would not like mandatory DNA testing.
Well, around 5% of men, up to 30, it's disputed, I don't want to go back and forth all day, but a significant number of men are raising children that are not theirs.
There's a line in, I think it's the Odyssey, where the son of Odysseus says, it's a wise man who knows his own father.
It's true, it's been true for a long time.
Okay, well, I don't know what that has to, you know... Well, you raised the question of paternity, and I'm saying this has been a long-standing trope in the Western tradition.
Go back to the earliest days.
My point is they're not taking men's issues seriously.
I don't think either party is.
So I think, really, if it was up to me, I would say men, don't vote until one of the parties starts taking you seriously.
I think the left should try to buy him.
Not buy him, but like, you know, if Biden came out tomorrow and said, hey, we're going to make divorce and family court more fair.
We're going to, you know, we're going to do mandatory DNA testing.
You might disagree with that.
I wouldn't like that.
I find that to be quite disrespectful to the institution of marriage.
Well, I think it's more disrespectful that women are lying to men about paternity.
And that's a real problem.
Sure.
Deceitful women, that's a problem throughout history.
Right.
And even if it's 2%, 1%, that's one out of every 100 guys.
That's a real issue.
And there's no penalty for women doing it, even though it's fraud.
Sure.
And so until the right and the left start taking men seriously when it comes to their You know, there are issues.
I think men should bow out.
But, you know, this is Pearl's world.
But in Pearl's world, again, so it's confusing because you say, I don't ever tell men what I think they ought to do, but you just said, I think men should bow out.
Well, I think that would be a strategy, sorry.
Right, but you say the same kind of thing.
You say, I think men ought to wait until the laws change before they get married.
No, no, every man has to decide for himself.
You just told men what to do when it comes to voting.
Every man has to decide for himself what he does in his personal life.
I think a good strategy could be that men walk away until the laws change.
I think that's a good strategy.
There are other ones, maybe you could come up with some.
You guys are one of the largest political media organizations.
But I think a better strategy for you guys would be to maybe start catering, you know, to start... Because I don't really think banning no-fault divorce would really change much.
People, the culture is what it is.
It would change a ton.
You know, when they introduced no-fault divorce in 1969, I think it was, in Canada, The divorce rates shot up 500% within two years.
First of all, no-fold divorce wasn't even recognized in liberal New York until 2010.
That change alone wouldn't solve the problem, but it would go a long way towards the problem.
Yeah, but that generation, a lot of them were separated anyways.
Separation is one thing.
Divorce is quite another.
Because that would mitigate all the problems you were discussing.
I would be for it.
I just don't see that getting passed anytime soon.
Right, I don't see any of these laws getting passed.
That's why I'm telling men don't put off your life and put off having a family until the laws get passed.
Well, I think we would have a lot better chance of getting them passed if that was the number one issue you guys were talking about.
If that was the number one issue.
It is.
I don't think I'm exaggerating.
It might be the number one issue I've talked about.
I mean, I was just at CPAC and I got in all sorts of trouble for saying that the way that people describe marriage these days is wrong and marriage is a lifelong union between a man and a woman.
Right, but you would agree it's not how it's practiced today.
It is how it's practiced by the people who have reasonable marriages.
Would you agree it's not how it's practiced today, not in the special religion, but by and large?
Again, when you say special religion, it seems to me you're trying to marginalize the Catholic faith or other faiths.
I'm Catholic!
I suppose, but I think you're marginalizing it anyway.
But religion is just a habit of virtue that inclines the will to give to God what he deserves, right?
So it's just kind of the way that one acts.
The reason I say that is because I grew up in the Catholic faith, and I don't think that exempts men from the risk of getting married.
You know, one girl I interviewed, she was from a Latin mass, like one of those communities, and she had horrible parental alienation.
I mean, her mother, there's a whole book that, it's called How to Destroy a Man.
And it lays out the framework exactly for how women can legally destroy a man, take his assets, take his children, and ruin his reputation.
I wouldn't recommend reading it.
No, I've read it.
No, not for that.
But it's like a step-by-step guide.
And this mother did it.
And this was in a Latin mass, like, orthodox community.
And that's why I say... Because these terms are sort of...
Ambiguous and contradictory even in this case, so I'd be curious to see the actual case.
Well, I guess what I would say is sometimes women have feelings about religion at 22 and at 42 they change.
And there's no consequence for women leaving right now.
People change their minds at any given time.
In fact, correct, but in fact they're paid to do so.
And so I will never shame men for making a decision that's right for them.
But you're going further than not shaming them.
I think we've gotten to the point where you've said, it's at least a good strategy to walk away from the institution of marriage until the laws have changed.
You just said that.
I say, I say, do whatever you want, guys.
But, no, I said, I said, regardless of what I say, men will walk away.
So let's establish.
Let's establish men, won't listen to Pearl, as you just said, let's establish that you think men ought to make their own decisions.
Yeah.
We've long established.
You also just said, it is a good strategy for men to walk away from the institution of marriage until the laws change.
You just said that.
No, no, I was talking about the vote.
They should walk away from the ballot box.
Yeah, that was the ballot box.
Until the, okay.
So at the very least, we've acknowledged that.
I said that's a strategy that men can do.
A good strategy.
Not just a bad strategy.
I mean, how else?
I mean, what have conservatives succeeded in conserving the last 50 years?
Not so much as the women's bathroom, I guess.
But so you're asking them to get on a team that's losing.
Right, I mean that's what Whitaker Chambers said when he left being a communist to become a conservative.
He thought he was joining the losing team.
Maybe that's the case, I mean in the long run we're all dead and the world's going to fall to pot and then the second coming will occur.
But that's not an excuse to avoid doing what is just and good and right and in line with our natural desires.
But it's not unjust for men to not want to have children.
It's disordered.
It's disordered for men not to- Give priests!
Clerical life, some are called by the charism of celibacy, but for most men, and by the way, they're called to the charism of celibacy in the priesthood because the priests act in the person of Christ, who is the bridegroom of the church, but for people who are not following a religious vocation, they are called to family life.
If there are not enough wives, what are men supposed to do?
It's about 50-50 in the population.
If there are not enough wives, what are men supposed to do?
There is basically parity between men and women, so there are enough wives.
Okay, well then I'm sure you'll see a spike in the men signing up for marriage.
No, I agree that there's a great deal of selfishness and liberalism, but I think that's the view that you're articulating and the view of the red-pilled people is basically a view that presumes a liberal, secular, individualist anthropology that is contrary to natural reason and the flourishing of men.
No, I would disagree with that.
How am I wrong?
You're saying men ought to just pursue their own interests regardless of, say, nature.
I think when you have a smoking gun... I mean, that's essentially what it... Like, you know, I tell you these stories and you just say, sign up anyways.
I'm saying be prudent, but I'm saying be prudent in everything in life.
You know, you could get in a car and get in a car accident because of it.
The other day, a teenage girl driver, another girl hit me while I was driving, but I'm not saying don't get in a car.
I'm saying be prudent.
Yeah, but if I get into a car and I see 30% of people crashing, I'm not getting into that car, regardless of the 10% of people that succeed.
But then even further, to use your airplane analogy, I guess the difference is getting on an airplane and going to Hawaii would be a nice thing to do, and I might like to do it sometime.
Getting married and having children is not merely a nice thing to do that I might, in my subjective preferences, like to engage in, but it is an aspect of my nature.
It is an aspect of my purpose to which I am aimed.
That's why I say... Do you think men's masculinity comes from marriage?
I think men's masculinity and virility comes from their nature as men.
But you don't think it comes from marriage?
I think that marriage fulfills a man's purpose, and inasmuch as he is more a man, the more he fulfills his purpose.
Do you think marriage is a man's purpose?
I think that, well, man's ultimate purpose is to know God and to serve him in this world and enjoy him forever and eternity.
So it wouldn't be marriage?
But subsidiary aspects of that would be, for lay people for instance, to get married, which is a symbol of Christ's love for his church, but even taking religion aside for a second.
But I'm asking, can I get a yes or no?
Well, I'm trying to explain to you the answer to the question you're asking.
But if you say, what's a man's purpose?
My purpose in this conversation is to talk to you.
That's one purpose.
A purpose is also to get to the nature of this question of marriage.
Another purpose is to communicate that to the audience.
So there are all sorts of purposes that we have.
We have higher purposes and lower purposes.
And so when you ask, is marriage part of a man's purpose?
I say it is.
It's not man's ultimate purpose, but it is a symbol of his ultimate purpose, and it is a constituent part of his purpose, and a natural end of his very nature.
Okay.
Yeah.
But the reason I say that you are adopting what seems to me a liberal and individualist anthropology here is because you are saying, every man needs to make his own decision, nothing's better or worse, I'm not recommending anything, I'm just, you know, you do you.
Do you think every man should make the same decision?
In many matters, yes.
Not between chocolate and vanilla ice cream, but between moral goods.
Do you feel like you should tell men what to do?
In as much as I correctly perceive the moral order, yes.
Okay, so you think that you know what's right for every man?
I think that I have a relatively reliable faculty of reason and moral conscience, and so in as much as it is reliable, I can articulate the truth as I see it, which is all anyone does.
It's what you're doing.
It's what all people do when we speak.
Yeah, I don't think it's really our job as commentators to tell people what to do.
But it's our job as human beings to perceive the moral order.
Okay.
Right?
And to form judgments about that.
Well, I disagree that... I disagree when you say it's the equivalent of feminism.
Because right now... I'm saying it's the equivalent of... What you're articulating is a liberal and individualist view.
And similar to feminism.
I would say that right now marriage is a feminist institution.
Not mine.
Right?
Well, if your wife decides tomorrow she wants to leave you, it will be.
The divorce laws are informed by feminism.
Correct, correct.
Marriage is a natural institution that predates the states that correct it.
Right, but there is no way for you to get married in this country and have children and not be a part of the institution of marriage legally.
Yeah, you have to sign up for the marital, though you can mitigate risk even by staying.
So there's a whole business of lawyers making money off of marriage, of feminist women's shelters making money off of marriage, you know, and you're saying, you know, sign up anyway, and I think I would disagree that it's feminist because what you're saying is sign up for the institution that is run by feminists.
I guess you're putting those words in my mouth, sign up anyway.
What I am saying is men ought to do the right thing.
That at the basis of the natural law is one precept, which is do good and avoid evil.
The first thing that we apprehend is being, right?
Existence.
The next thing that we apprehend, and this is the first thing we apprehend through our practical reason, which is oriented toward action, is Good.
When you do something, you want to do good and you want to avoid evil.
And so what I'm saying is that marriage and family, the end of marriage being the begetting and education of children, and secondarily, the mutual support of the spouses, is good for man.
So I'm not saying this isn't Michael's crazy view.
I'm saying this is a natural part.
It's why this has existed throughout all of human society, everywhere.
And it's why we're all inclined to do it.
Whether or not Earl or Michael wants it.
Okay, so do you think it's wrong if a man wants to build a business?
Depends what the business is.
Okay, okay, but whatever.
And instead of pursuing women, he pursues his business.
Instead of pursuing a marriage and a family.
I think it would be a mistake for a man to pursue material good to the exclusion of better goods.
Okay, what about coaching?
What about teaching?
I think our jobs in the commercial economy are good things, but I think modern liberalism and individual anthropologies make an idol out of that, and that is to the harm of men.
We shouldn't make an idol out of our jobs.
I like my job a lot, but it's not my whole life.
And the other problem you get into is, again, You know, just because a man has kids, it doesn't mean that the kids will... I mean, you've met raising kids that grow up to hate them.
I mean, even in the story that I showed you.
It's bad, yeah.
Within marriage or divorce?
Both.
Both.
I've seen, you know, kids get alienated from their fathers.
How?
That are, you know, in the same household.
It happens all the time.
How does it happen?
I agree it happens.
Well, I mean, the man's working, and so the mom spends more time with the kids.
The mom's talking all day in the kid's ear.
It's a really sad thing.
So you're saying the mom hates the dad.
Yeah.
That seems to be a problem that predates the alienation.
No, it totally is.
It is.
It totally is.
And the schools, and the TV, and everyone says the men are dolts and idiots.
Yeah, I agree.
That's terrible.
Yeah.
But that's my point, is just because a man has kids, it doesn't mean his legacy will live on.
No, again, I don't think the kids are the chief end of man in the world, but I do think it is an important aspect of it and an expression of it.
And you can raise kids who are likely not to hate you.
There are things that you can do and things that you can avoid that will increase that likelihood.
I mean, that's true, but there's no guarantees.
No guarantees of anything in this life, girl.
And I think it's a higher risk, and I would really encourage you to spend a couple days in family court.
I think it would really change your point of view.
I've had close friends who have been in brutal, brutal divorces.
I mean, I've seen a little bit of it up close.
It's dreadful.
Yeah, and at times, you know, they didn't really do anything wrong.
Yeah, well, they've all done something.
If women feel like leaving, they can leave.
We can leave.
They can.
But how does the marriage break down?
It's like Hemingway describes bankruptcy and the sun also rises.
It happens gradually and then suddenly.
So, it seems to me, I'm not letting women off the hook.
Sometimes crazy, you know, feminist ladies go nuts and divorce their husbands and poison, you know, the kids against their father and they do all sorts of terrible things.
But, you know, marriage is a union of two people.
And I agree with you, a lot of people when they get into marriage these days, including the men, especially the men, not only don't know what they're signing up for, they don't even really have a vision of what they're signing up for.
They don't even know what they want to be signing up for.
And so that's a mistake.
That's an error on the part of the men, often, and of the women.
But the men are the head of the household, so more responsibility falls onto them.
And then the way they lead their lives.
What do they get authority to?
Who do they give authority to?
No, do the men have authority in their own households?
In the good marriages, they do.
Would you say that's the majority?
Well, I don't know.
I mean, these days, people say that two men can be married.
So, you know, people are very confused about what marriage is.
Correct.
Correct.
But in the real marriages and the flourishing marriages, yeah, the men do have a headship.
What percent of marriages do you think are happy after 50 years?
Well, all I have to go by is the General Social Survey and some of the Chicago studies that come as a result of that.
And the evidence is that, again, according to statistics and social science... 50% divorce.
Yeah, granted, anywhere from 40 to 50 percent divorce.
But nevertheless, according to the GSS, which is probably the biggest data set we have on this, the happiest people are men and women married with children.
Followed by men and women married without children.
Well, I'll come to that.
followed by divorced parents without children, followed by divorced parents with children.
And one Chicago study from last year showed the happiness gap between married and unmarried to be 30 points.
So you're talking about, again, how do you measure happiness?
I think a lot of it's bunk, but as much as you can.
And the men that get married tend to be tall.
I mean, women select for tall, handsome, successful men.
That's how I describe myself all the time.
So you're attributing it to marriage.
And I'm saying the men that women pick are happy anyways.
You're saying happier people are more inclined to get married.
No, no.
Well, partially, but... No, I'm saying that women pick tall, handsome, successful men, and I would imagine that they would be happier.
Because the men are hot and rich.
No, not hot.
Why are you... That's what you just said.
Tall, handsome, successful, happy.
I said hot.
You said tall.
We could add in happy.
I mean, do women tend to, you know...
Women tend to want tall, happy, successful men, so I wouldn't necessarily just attribute it to marriage, even though in some cases that helps.
I'm having a little trouble following.
You're saying because... Because you guys always attribute what... you guys always attribute If a man's happy, it's because of his marriage.
I'm just saying married people, in as much as one can measure happiness, married people seem to be significantly happier than unmarried people.
Then men will sign right up.
I think people do things that are extremely perverse today, largely because of individualism and liberalism.
But even that word happiness is important, because we say we can't measure happiness, I don't even know that we can define happiness now.
What do we even mean by happiness?
I have a definition that I go by, but what do you mean by it?
I guess I couldn't say definition off the top of my head.
I see what you mean.
Right?
People mean so many different things by it.
I always go by good old Uncle Aristotle's definition of happiness as eudaimonia, which is rational activity conducted in accordance with virtue.
And so the reason I mention this is not just because I love the Old, dead thinkers.
But because I think they had something right that will help to guide us through this very confused modern time.
The way that you are describing marriage seems to be from an unmoored perspective.
An un-what?
Unmoored.
Meaning not grounded in something.
Meaning it's a little subjective.
It's a little wishy-washy.
Men can do whatever they like.
You pick.
That's not what I said.
Some people have a different purpose.
That's not what I said.
I thought you said men can do whatever they like.
You took issue with me for saying that I was coming to a moral judgment about how men should behave.
No, I think that every man has to decide for himself, but I wouldn't recommend say like.
How should he decide?
In an ideal world, following God and His purpose.
Right.
So, following God and His purpose.
And how do we come to know our purpose?
I mean, I think following God typically meant... How do we follow God?
You know, going to church every Sunday, you know, praying.
You know, I think there's ways that you can.
Studying the Bible.
But, you know, I'm not like a preacher, you know.
You're not.
The thing you keep leaving out, I agree, all those things are good to do.
The thing you keep leaving out is reason.
And it's the thing you keep taking issue with me, where I keep saying marriage is a rational act.
It was.
I don't know if it is now.
But even though the laws are bad and the politicians are dummies, even still, it's a rational act Over and above the qualities of the state because of human nature.
Because men and women are different.
Because we are a rational creature.
So we can, you know, perceive of things like abstract justice.
Animals can't do that.
My whiskey glass can't do that.
So we can do that.
Men and women are different.
We're not, like the feminists say, they say we're identical.
We're not identical.
I agree.
We're not, and like the feminists and some of the, some it would seem of the red pill guys would imply, we're not totally opposed to one another in our interests.
Who would suggest this?
I don't like to give them airtime because I find them to be huge jerks and they have smaller audiences and I don't want to popularize them.
But I think we know some of the people that we're talking about.
Okay, okay.
If you think it's an unfair characterization, please tell me.
I don't speak for every red pill guy.
You're describing the interests of men and women as being quite opposed.
You've been talking about it this whole time.
You know, the mothers when they're staying home.
The way the laws are today.
Not just the laws, the behaviors.
You're saying the mother at home is poisoning the children against their father.
It's very common.
Right, so anyway, that's the view I'm discussing.
It's very common, yeah.
But again, I don't think that that is ultimately the relation between men and women as hostile interests.
I think, call me crazy and old-fashioned, I think that men and women are complementary.
We're physically complementary with one another.
I agree.
And we're spiritually complementary with one another.
I agree.
Marriage is a rational activity.
I mean that the fact that man is social, the fact that men and women are complementary, the fact that men and women are coupling creatures and that it is in our interest at a very basic level to procreate and consequently to educate the children, makes marriage a natural institution that does not actually change no matter what the politicians say.
I think that that's easy to say in your position.
I think it's very difficult.
I would agree that marriage is a natural thing.
I would agree that men and women are better together.
But I think when you're paying people to do the wrong thing, which if a man has children in this country, the woman is being paid to leave, you're going to have a higher percentage of women that do it, religious or not.
No, they're much less likely.
But religious or not, the woman will not care in divorce court.
She will.
The religious woman is more likely to care.
If we're going to go off of the numbers, it's roughly 25% to a third of Catholics.
That's an insignificant number.
But it's like 5% of Catholics.
And it's like 10%.
I don't.
Those numbers include people over a certain age, under a certain age.
You keep moving the goalposts.
No, it's not moving the goalposts.
It's something that you should consider.
But I'm considering it.
But you mentioned the statistics, but then you said I can't trust the statistics when they contradict your argument.
No, that's not what I said.
I said that over the age of 40, roughly 35, it's a different time.
And the women of today are not the women of yesterday.
It's a different You know, we would agree that it's a lower, I mean, just going on whatever.
I mean, I don't know about you.
I had never met a sex worker in my life.
Yeah.
I had never, no, I never had.
But I grew, like I grew up in a Catholic community.
That wasn't normal.
Because the technology didn't exist.
But now I'm seeing, now I'm seeing, you know, ex-porn stars as preachers.
You haven't seen that?
Oh yeah.
At least they're ex-Pornstars, better than current Pornstars.
Thank God.
That's my point.
St.
Paul persecuted Christians.
And then he was knocked off a horse on the road to Damascus and became the apostle to the Gentiles.
So people can change their lives.
And I think that's something you're kind of downplaying here.
No, I'm not downplaying that people can change their lives.
What I'm downplaying is that it, not downplaying, what I'm saying is that it's not really wise for men to date former sex workers, regardless of what they say.
Why not?
Why not?
I'm not saying it's ideal, but why not?
Because I think the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
So then you are sort of denying that people can change.
No.
No, I'm not denying that people can change.
I would say most people don't change.
In general.
Like, I wouldn't say women go date a criminal.
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it.
I wouldn't.
You know, there might be the exception, but it doesn't make the rule.
Yeah, but I'll tell you, growing up in New York, I know some reformed criminals.
Who are actually reformed.
Yeah, but the difference is criminals actually have consequences, where women tend to not have consequences for their decisions.
I think modern women face a lot of consequences.
They don't want to admit it.
No, no.
We're bailed out of every bad decision we make.
I don't think so, because you can't get bailed out of reality.
So, like, I agree, you know, the divorce courts are jilted toward women or whatever, but the woman who goes to university, I'm sure you get these letters, I get them too, the woman who goes to a university is told, Hook up with every guy you can, study some- She chooses to, not told.
She's also told, and she chooses to.
She's also told by the culture.
She chooses to, because that's what she wants to do.
But she's also told to do it by the culture.
You can't downplay that, right?
You can be told to do so.
I can be told to jump off a bridge that doesn't mean I should do it.
Right, I know, but you just said she's not told that, and I'm saying she very much is told by the culture.
Well, I'm saying she doesn't have to listen.
I think it takes accountability off of women when we're constantly saying that the world told you to, and that's why you did it.
No, no, no.
I agree that their wills have been malformed and that our entire education system, broadly speaking, now indulges the lower passions and denies the rational will and denies even the place of reason and truth in public life.
So she does that.
And she makes bad choices, and she picks some dumb major, and she graduates, and she's told, don't get married.
You've got to move to the city, and you've got to sleep with a thousand men, and you've got to get a job working as a middle manager at a widget factory.
And you're going to do that, and you're going to totally bypass your childbearing years, sleeping around and going out for brunch, and working for Mr. McGillicuddy at the widget factory.
She's choosing it, and she's making a poor choice, and she's being encouraged to do it by a fallen culture.
And then she's going to wake up one day, and she's going to be about 34, and she's going to regret all of these decisions, and she's going to cry into TikTok.
That's what's going to happen.
That is a consequence.
Living with the consequences of being used by men, of not being able to have a harder time getting married, not having kids, and... Why is it that...
That's a consequence.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
I've been cutting you off a couple times.
It's okay.
It's alright.
I do apologize.
I've got thick skin.
I do.
I don't mean to cut you off.
It's okay.
But, because my question is why do we always say is used by men?
Because men use women for sex.
No, but women don't use, you know, there are women that hunt top men down and try to sleep with them.
I'm sure the top men are, I mean I don't know what top men, they're probably some pick-up artists.
Even the way you describe it, it's like always putting it on the men.
Because men and women react differently to sex, and because men tend to pursue in sex, and women tend to be pursued.
Oh no, not the top guys.
What do you mean by top guy?
Yeah, like I've interviewed, I had Brittany Renner on my show, do you know who that is?
There are girls that, she talks about this, they learn every single thing about, they become targets, the men.
And they get the guys to sleep with them, they try to steal condoms.
Who's a top man?
You mentioned a woman, who's a top man?
And am I a top man?
If you were dating again, you might be.
You might be.
I mean, women, when there's money, you know... Just my money?
It's not my sparkling personality and my good looks?
All right.
Look it, look it.
Okay.
But I just notice in the language, like, somehow it's always the men's fault when we talk about sin.
So even in that sin... Women's sin.
But women are easily... Women are taken advantage of because... I disagree.
Do you think men and women relate to sex in the same way?
I think that at times women have more sexual power than men.
I'm not denying that.
Women always have more sexual power.
You could say women take advantage of lonely men on OnlyFans.
They do.
What I'm asking is, do you think that men and women relate to sex in the same way?
No.
They don't.
That's why we talk about men and women in sex differently, and we ascribe different moral- Right, but I think your accountability for the action, it is still, it's on you.
So I don't think when women sin, it's the fault of society.
I don't think it's the fault the men are just using you.
You know, I think that when women do that, it's a choice.
Sure.
Do you think that people can be deceived?
I think women play dumb a lot.
It's like, I'll interview these women on abortion, and they're like, oh, I didn't know.
What, you didn't have Google?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, you say they play dumb, which they do, but are they dumb sometimes?
Yeah, but that's fine.
That's what I'm asking.
Well... You would say yes.
You would say yes.
Yeah, but... People obviously can be deceived.
They can be deceived, but you're still accountable for the choices that you make, and I don't necessarily... I think sometimes it's just the easier choice.
Like, women don't want to do the hard thing.
What's the hard thing?
I would say it's easy to sleep around.
Yeah.
That's an easy thing to do.
It's a temptation.
For men too.
Correct.
But it's easier for women.
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
That's kind of why I attack the guys for using women.
What percent of men are even using women?
It's like 80% of women are involved in hookup culture, maybe 5% of men.
And I can tell you, I can even say this like from doing my show, I'll interview a guy He's sleeping with like three, four, he'll go on.
Yeah, that's bad.
Three, four chicks from the show.
Right, that's bad, right?
That's bad.
You would say that's a bad thing for him.
Sure, sure, but my point is more women, there's five women partaking in it where there's one man.
But it's one man doing it five times as much as the women.
That's why I'm lacking the men.
But my point is more women are responsible for hookup culture than men.
But the men are more... You just acknowledged the men are more culpable in that they are doing it more frequently than the women.
No, I would say there's five women, so it's way more... But they're individually each doing it with the same... But I'm talking about, like, you're basically saying to men, oh, don't sleep... Most men can't.
Most men aren't.
Which is good.
That's actually a great limitation of their... Yeah, fine, fine, fine.
But it's like... Their lack of riz.
But it's just so fun... The riz.
But it's funny because it's like, the hookup culture, women are more responsible for hookup culture than men.
And if there's 10 women that partake in it, there's less men that can't.
No, women are more responsible for hookup culture than men because they allow men to sleep with them.
And they're the ones who are being pursued.
So I agree with you on that.
Well, the top men are, the women are pursuing them.
I would, if you look at like, but... Yeah, again, do we have an example of a top man?
I mean, examples that I think of, but I know, because this is always where the convo goes, then it's like the religion decides who's a top man, but I'm talking about like who women... No, this is the first time I'm hearing this term, and I would like it to apply to me, but perhaps it won't.
So who's a top man?
Okay, an example of a type of man that women go for is, say, you know, athletes.
Yeah.
Sneaker chasers.
Jersey chasers, we call them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, correct.
I'm saying, like, in those examples, the women are pursuing them.
It's not the women being innocent and used.
It's women driving to the games, getting a hotel, stalking, you know.
There is one chick, God, it was crazy.
She, she, she tells me that, um, God, this is just such a crazy story.
They literally figure out where there's a hangout, I guess, after games where the athletes all go and the wives aren't there.
And there are women that go there and try to get men to cheat on their wives.
Groupies.
They're like groupies.
Yeah, but my point is there are far more women responsible for hookup culture than men.
But yet, when I go on podcasts, we always somehow bring the conversation back to the men.
Even though far more women are engaging in it.
And we can't even definitively say, don't date a woman that did sex work.
I find this kind of utilitarian view of responsibility actually kind of delightful when you say, look, there's five women who are doing it.
Though I think it does cut the other way, because each of these total Sigma Chad dudes are sleeping with like five women each.
So I think either way it kind of cuts.
But that's not really my question at all.
My question is, don't men have a moral responsibility to act in a certain way?
Men cannot lead women that don't want to be led.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Hold on.
Wait, wait, wait.
Let me finish, Michael.
Okay.
I was trying to lead you.
Sorry.
No, no.
I do think men have a moral responsibility to act in a certain way.
Yes.
Great.
Yeah.
Well, there you have it.
But I don't think men have to get married if there are not enough wives to go around.
If there are not enough women who you say are marriageable.
You know what's so crazy?
What?
Under the age of 35, now the problem is, with a lot of these, I don't know, we're gonna go back.
Statistics are all fake, but I'm happy to hear them.
Well, I'd believe it too, just from interviewing a thousand women.
Five to 15% of women under 35 are on OnlyFans, Cam, or some sort of sex work.
According, according, there's a guy who does research for me, really, Dr. David Baker, he's like a published author, really, really smart guy.
That seems high to me.
That's what I thought, too.
Swear to God, that's what I thought.
Until I interviewed a thousand women.
I can't even count how many sex workers I've met.
But don't you think the kind of women who go on relationship podcasts are kind of self-selecting?
Don't you think the trad women just don't go on camera?
That's been my experience.
No.
No?
No, I would say when you interview a thousand women, you just start to see patterns.
I've had Christian women on.
I've had women from Eastern Europe.
Eastern Europe is like the hotbed of pornography in the world, isn't it?
Well, I mean, I could say Japan.
I could keep going.
I'm in London, so it's pretty international.
I guess my only point is, women who go on shows to be interviewed tend to be a little less trad than the women who stay home and bake bread.
You know a lot of women under the age of 30 that are staying home and baking bread.
I do.
I think that, again, as I've said, you guys are a bit out of touch to what the average man is experiencing dating in this country.
Or are we just in touch with a different group of people?
I guess is my point.
You're right.
When one surrounds oneself with people who are divorced or with people who are not only fans or whatever, then it kind of skews where you would find the median or the average.
But if you spend your time in like the middle of America with like in nice parishes.
Well, you just contradicted yourself because earlier you said that you had close friends that were divorced.
I do, but it's not the average.
Even in your circles, you still... Well, I'm from New York and I lived in LA, so, you know, I wasn't always, you know... Right, but that's why sometimes I'm like, do you not see reality?
Like, do you guys not see what's going on out here?
And religious attendance in the younger generation, it's going down.
Slower than ever.
Yeah, sure.
Though, again, you kind of got to get a little bit more specific about it because the people, first of all, there is a movement of young people going back to churches, and they're going back to the more orthodox ones.
They're not going to the hippy-dippy, egalitarian, feminist ones.
So, you know, again, this is why I find the statistical arguments to be kind of fruitless, which is, okay, You know, when we say something is natural, we mean it in two ways, right?
We mean it in deriving from the principles of nature, like a tree sprouts from the ground, and we mean it in a way that involves free will.
Like, you know, you can make a natural choice or an unnatural choice.
And so, I guess what I'm suggesting is We live in a time that is exalting, really unnatural and disordered behaviors, especially in the circles you're talking about.
And I'm suggesting maybe we ought to focus on these circles that are growing in a lot of places, where there is a return toward reasonable behavior.
What about what Glenn was talking about earlier?
When he was talking about that, what verses were they?
Proverbs 31.
So, Proverbs...
Proverbs 31, he's writing the verse 10, talks about how rare verses are like it.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
That's rare and blue.
For those who can't hear without the microphone, you know, that a virtuous woman is rarer than the finest rubies.
Yeah.
But that would, even in the Bible, it implies that it's an exception, not the rule.
Sure, and also the Bible says, be fruitful and multiply, and our Lord says in the Gospel of St.
Matthew, what man has joined, let no man separate.
Right, but when a quarter of women are getting abortions, it's the women that aren't going along with this.
But what is your point?
You're citing the Bible to say people ought not to get married, but I'm assuming it doesn't say that.
No, I'm not saying not to get married.
I'm saying it's incredibly difficult for a man to find a woman worthy of being a wife in the current climate.
What do you think virtue is?
What do I think?
You brought up the terms.
No, you brought it up.
You're the one who said- No, I don't use that word.
Virtue?
You just mentioned- Oh, fine.
You brought up the line of progress as a virtuous woman.
Well, Glenn brought up the- but yeah.
And then you brought up Glenn.
So, I mean, I just think there's a misunderstanding here because virtue is not something that's static.
Virtue is a habit.
So you cultivate virtues and you cultivate vices and their habits.
It's like drugs, you know, that would be a vicious habit.
But shouldn't men marry women with good habits and good virtue?
But the way a habit works is it's not static in time.
Right.
It is something that continues and changes.
Right, but with... And can reverse.
But with how unfair the laws are to men, again, don't you think men should be extremely selective?
I question if you... I'm not saying that men ought to, you know, throw a stick out the window and marry the first woman in a dance.
I mean, you said an ex-OnlyFans model.
That's basically the equivalent.
I said that... No, I don't think so.
Come on, an ex only?
I can't think of anyone worse.
I don't know how you can't definitively say no to that.
Someone that I loved and he was looking for a wife, you know, like my brother.
And he said, well I found this girl in church that used to do OnlyFans.
No, anyone else.
Please, God.
You have sons, right?
I do.
You wouldn't want them to date an ex-OnlyFans model.
You would want them to be really selective, especially with what's going up against them.
I guess the point I'm making is that no one is beyond redemption.
And it seems to me you're saying people are beyond redemption.
No, I'm saying that men don't have to forgive your sin and actions have consequences.
But no one's denying it'll be harder for an ex-OnlyFans person to get married.
No one's denying that.
It's pretty much impossible, I would say.
Yeah, it's very difficult.
I know ex-pornographers who have gotten married.
So it's not impossible, but it's harder.
It adds a lot of challenges.
I recommend people not, you know, do bad things.
Correct, but what we often, and I saw this, you know, even in the chastity speakers.
I'm sure you know them actually, that Jason and Christiana Everett.
I don't.
Really?
I don't actually.
That's like the number one chastity.
I don't go to a lot of chastity events.
I'm already married.
I'm not, you know, I'm chaste.
I'm not celibate.
Well, they would have them, like, come to our high school.
And whatever sin the woman always did, it was always blamed upon the man.
Always.
Like, it's always if she slept around, if she slept around, it wasn't because she wanted to, it was because she was being used.
You see the difference?
Well, there is a distinction here, which is that women are the weaker sex, so men bear greater responsibility.
Eve eats the apple, but all man sins in Adam.
But how is a man responsible for women doing OnlyFans?
That's a choice.
And that's what I think we should... Because, well, men are the consumers in the case of OnlyFans, right?
Yeah, but... So they do bear some responsibility.
Well, I mean, even they have to post it before there's any consumers.
No, the reason they post is because there's a market.
Not really.
We're getting back to the chicken and the egg.
Do you know what the average OnlyFans model makes?
It is not about money.
They're duped.
But why do they get on?
Attention.
They want attention.
There's women on podcasts and you see them, they say they'll do it for free.
They want attention.
I think you were on a show, right?
On whatever?
Yeah, didn't that girl say that?
That she would do it even without the money?
Maybe.
Some of what they say gets a little blurry.
Like, let's go outside, you know, let's walk.
So I went to Vegas, you know.
The women are walking around with stickers on their boobs.
No man made them do that.
The little pasties?
Yeah.
Right, but why are they doing it?
You're saying, again, I'm not... No, I'm saying they like the attention.
They know it'll attract attention.
Right, so I'm not saying that women aren't culpable when they do bad things, but what I'm saying is that men share some of this culpability because they're the ones consuming it.
No, I think everyone's responsible for their own choices, and I think that includes women, and the more we coddle women and say, oh, you poor thing, it was the men, oh, you were lied to by feminism, oh, everything's everyone else's fault, that's why you have these women at 35 that act like entitled brats.
No, no, no, but I guess this is why I'm suggesting that, like, the view I'm articulating.
Oh, you might get a husband after OnlyFans.
No, no one's suggesting that that would be particularly easy.
But I guess the reason, I'm suggesting what would be probably the conservative or traditional or Christian view of marriage and the sexes.
And the reason that I'm describing yours, and I take it, the Red Pill's view of marriage and the sexes, as being liberal and individualist and feminist is because of, well, what you just said.
You said, everyone is totally responsible for their own choices.
Do you think people aren't responsible for their own choices?
I think that our wills are conditioned by our environments and our education and public life, because we're a social creature who lives in community with others.
So how do you explain people making completely different choices?
I know siblings where one ends up doing one.
I mean, come on, you know.
Right.
You have a couple kids, don't you?
Yes.
They're different.
Two and a half, I suppose.
One on the way.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, congrats.
Thank you.
You know, people are different, and they make different choices.
So are you saying people aren't conditioned in their will by their environments?
That's what an extreme liberal would say, and maybe that's what you believe.
But I don't believe that.
No, no, I think...
I don't really know what that means.
Meaning, are we affected?
If you grow up in a really bad community where you're taught all sorts of bad things, where you're introduced to drugs and porn and gluttony and just all this nasty stuff, are you more likely to fall into bad vices and habits and temptations?
You're more likely, but you're still responsible for your decisions.
You are 100% responsible for the choices that you make.
Sure.
If a man chooses, you know, there are men that grow up in bad environments that choose to be millionaires, and there's others that choose to be drug dealers.
Then there's some who choose to be millionaires and fail.
What you seem to be describing is a real primacy of the will, of the individual will.
And I'm saying that free will obviously exists, but it's conditioned by other factors.
Why is it that marriage is collapsing?
Is everyone just of their own free will, just totally absent environmental concerns, just decided one day not to get married?
Because women want to leave.
Because when women got the choice To get money instead of have a father in the home, women have chosen to take the money.
So I think you've just proven my point though.
Even if what you just said is true, you're saying that a political and social condition changed the way that human beings, that women exercise their free will.
It changed the incentives, but that didn't mean women had to take it.
But it's not the government's fault.
It's women's fault for making that choice.
Right.
It's not society's fault.
It's women's fault.
It's the person's fault for making... Everybody is responsible for their own... But had the social condition and the law not changed, women would not have made those choices in millions of numbers.
Well, you'd be surprised, actually.
I thought that's what you just said.
I thought you just said that the reason... No, the majority.
No, I didn't say the reason.
I said it was because women wanted to.
It started that.
No, I said it was because women wanted to.
Women wanted to.
Women have chosen.
And just coincidentally, they all of a sudden decided they wanted to when the law changed.
Women chose, well, they wanted to before that.
I mean, they fought for 50 years for abortion.
So I'm saying when people, okay, we could go back and forth about what I want to do, what you want to do.
All I look is at what people do.
No, I'm not talking about your individual desires.
I'm talking about desire itself and the relation of desire to... You seem to be saying that people exercise their free will in something like a vacuum, you know, and therefore they bear all of the moral responsibility.
And I'm saying that we're a social creature and there's more to it than that.
I'm just confused.
Do you think you're responsible for the choices you make?
I think I am a moral agent and I bear moral responsibility, and that my ability to exercise my will is conditioned by my environment, by the laws and the customs of the community.
So you think the environment's responsible for the choices you make?
That's not what I said.
I said I'm a moral agent and I'm responsible for my actions.
Okay, so you are responsible.
But my free will, my ability to exercise my will, is conditioned by the laws and the customs and the community in which I live.
Which is why it's not merely an individual question, but it's also a political question for human beings who are the political animals.
That just sounds like a lot of words to me.
It is a lot of words.
That's making it a bit more complicated than it needs to be from my point of view.
Yeah, I think it's just describing reality.
No, I think reality is that you are responsible for the decisions you make.
I think that's the best, you know, one thing I'm really grateful for, you know, in my... How does one make a decision?
I guess, might help us to break through this impasse.
How does one make a decision?
How does one, you weigh the pros and the cons and you make a decision?
Okay, so the way, so, well, you weigh the pros and the cons as part of it, and then you make a decision, so making a decision is just an exercise in the world.
I think you're close, but how does one- What are you, the CEO of decision making?
No, I'm just, you know, I'm using my reason to examine an aspect of human nature.
How does one know the pros and the cons?
Um, I mean, it depends what decision, but, okay, let's take, let's take, let's take, let's take, let's take, let's take abortion.
Can I, can I use an example?
Is that allowed?
Please.
Alright, abortion.
You get pregnant, you Google abortions, then you can decide.
You can weigh the pros and the cons.
So Google is one way.
So what we've just concluded is the way that you exercise... No, I used it as an example of one way.
No, I think what you've said is right.
But what we have agreed upon now is that the way that one exercises free will, that is, decides on a course of action, is one way.
Tries to know something, and then one, with the knowledge that they've arrived at, exercises their will in accordance with that knowledge, and that is what we call a free choice.
And the example you used is perfect, because if you Google something, knowing that Google is like the worst leftist company ever in the history of the world, you are very likely to get bad information.
No, I did it.
I totally did it.
Because I was tired of the simping, I was really tired of it.
Because I kept hearing people blaming You're saying Google gives you good information?
when it came to abortion.
And so I-- - You're saying Google gives you good information. - I would say, no, Google, the top thing when you put in side effects of abortion are depression, anxiety, you know?
- Yeah, yeah.
- So, I don't know.
I think you're responsible for your choices.
Okay, but in principle, you just came to a really important aspect of free will, which is that free will is predictable, at least in principle.
Even if you like, I don't like Google, you like Google, but let's put that aside.
Well, Bing's a little bit better.
Bing might be better, but you said You've come to the correct conclusion, which is that free will, the ability to do something, is predicated on willing something, and that is predicated on knowledge.
Now, what I am saying, the reason why I'm saying that your social environment and your education has some bearing on how you can exercise your free will is that when people are fed a bunch of BS as knowledge by the schools, by the media, by Hollywood, by everything, then that is... Let me just finish my point.
Then when your knowledge base, the intellectual aspect that you're basing your free action on, is compromised and false, then you are going to will, based on a lie, and your very ability to act in a rational way is going to be compromised by your experience in your environment.
But you're still responsible for the decisions that you make, and that's my point.
I don't like, I just don't like excuses.
I don't like blaming everybody.
Yeah, I just wonder if... I think that women... I think you're over-complicating it a little bit, from my point of view.
I think I am articulating what you said, which was true, actually.
But then you reached a non-sequitur conclusion, which is you said, actually, yeah, our environment does kind of have something to do with how we make choices.
I don't say it doesn't play an effect.
I'm saying that you're responsible for the choices you make.
Ultimately, that's necessarily true.
Yeah, that's my point.
And so when you're constantly blaming everybody else for the decisions that you make, and I see that a lot with women.
I see it's the government's fault, it's your school system's fault, even though, I mean really, the school system's run by women.
Teachers are mostly women.
Yeah, I mean, sure, ultimately the country's going to buy a felon named Joe Biden.
Women make 80% of consumer buying decisions, so the media is catering to women.
Yeah, sure, I'm not denying any of that.
I'm not really denying any of these things, I just, I'm confused because you, we seem to have arrived at this, you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Where am I contradicting?
By acknowledging that The ways that we get knowledge will affect the way that we can exercise our free will.
But then saying that the ways that we get knowledge, which are by definition environmental, Don't actually affect our exercise.
But you can also get knowledge through life experience and like watching people that are older than you.
Right, but you don't experience life alone.
You experience life in community, which is my point.
Yeah, well, my point, I'm not trying to over-complicate this, is just that women are responsible.
I think we're under-complicating it, unfortunately.
Which is why you've reached an erroneous conclusion.
No, I think that women were responsible for the choices that we make.
and I'm just not really into it.
I'm really not into it.
I just, I'm just not into it.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
So what our friend Glenn has mentioned here, off camera, is he made the point, an apt point for this discussion, which is that sin is a sin, whether you want to do it or not.
But that actually is not the traditional teaching of the Church.
There are certain Protestant denominations that say that that's true.
But the traditional teaching of the Church, still the teaching of Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy, is that there are different types of sin.
There is venial sin, and there is mortal sin.
And what's the difference?
The difference is that a mortal sin is committed with full knowledge and with your consent.
Do women not know they're getting rid of the dads in the home?
I think women are fed a bunch of lies by our modern liberal feminist culture.
It doesn't obviate the fact that what they're doing is often sinful, but it does create an important distinction.
I really don't mean to be pedantic on this point, but this is like the fundamental distinction between a liberal So what sin are women not responsible for?
and a more conservative traditional, classical worldview is what free will is.
And the liberals on the left and the right believe that freedom is the ability to do whatever you want whenever you want to do it.
And the conservatives believe that freedom is doing what you ought to do.
- So what sin are women not responsible for? - What do you mean? - Like what, I'm just, I'm confused at your point.
What sin are women not responsible for?
Are you saying they're venial sins?
I'm saying that there is a distinction between venial and mortal sin.
I'm suggesting that knowledge and consent to sin are I'm just trying to apply what you're saying to the analogy.
So if women are choosing to get STDs, abortions, be single mothers, alienate children from their dads.
I'll tell you exactly what I'm saying.
Where in this process are they?
Sort of responsible.
When women have been raised their whole lives, maybe by divorced parents, raised their whole lives to be told to pursue a career rather than family, to go on the birth control pill at age 12, to go to college and study some stupid nonsense and get a $200,000 student loan as a result of that, that there's no such thing as right and wrong, there's no such thing as virtue, you just got to go get your bag, and maybe you're going to end up on OnlyFans because you can make more money doing that than you can waitressing.
When they're told that for their entire lives, it's not that they don't bear any moral responsibility, but it is greatly reduced compared to someone who has proper knowledge and the exercise of their will.
Oh, see, I've been on the other side of this.
What's the other side?
No, the other side is, it doesn't matter.
No, because again, it's like you tell women these things, younger women, but women are going to do what they want to do anyway.
I guess I'm just confused, because previously you said that it's all different now because of the social conditions have changed.
But now you're saying it doesn't actually matter.
No, no, I'm saying there's more freedom.
I'm saying there's more freedom for women to do what they want to do.
And I think that when you have the most freedom... By the liberal definition of freedom.
I think when you have the most choice, you see what people truly want to do.
Not what they say they want to do, but what they choose to do.
And how do people come to their desires is the point.
I know, we're going to go back to Google, huh?
No.
So I just, I'm trying to understand.
Part of it is through habit.
You know, if you get a guy who is a Hunter Biden, you get a guy who's like a drug addict derelict, right?
And you put him in a room with a bunch of hookers and blow and a cello.
And you say you can do whatever you want.
You can go play Bach on the cello, or you can go hang out with the hookers and the blow.
Hunter Biden, or a guy like him, probably not going to pick the cello.
But if you go to a guy who's relatively upright and who has cultivated virtue and believes that actually if he commits a lot of sins he's going to just burn in hell for eternity and he loves God and everything, and you put him in the room with the hookers and the blow and the cello, I'm not saying 100 times out of 100 he's going to pick the cello, but a lot of times That guy's going to pick the cello.
And so those two guys have the same choice available to them, but their wills are inclined toward different things.
But you're still responsible for your sin.
Yes.
Okay, that's it.
Yeah.
That's what, I don't, I just, I'm not really in, I just don't, I don't think coddling women helps us.
I don't think coddling, but I think addressing social reality.
I don't, no, I think it's just a bunch of excuses.
I think as a woman, I know women in the same environments that picked completely different things.
So that's my opinion.
You can disagree, but I know women that, you know, they're in the same family.
One chose sex work or something similar.
One chose to be a housewife.
Same family.
Right.
But if you're saying, like, to the point you opened with, when you say, look, it's different for the younger than 30 women or whatever.
It's totally because the social circumstances have changed.
I agree with you.
But then the thing that has changed is not the women and the nature of the women.
The thing that has changed is the social circumstances.
And so the place you're placing the blame, even you, as you describe it, is in those changing laws and customs and norms, not on the nature of women.
No, no, I still think you're responsible, but I don't think the laws are fair to men.
So you would, and you would change the laws, but you don't blame the laws for the problem.
But you would change them anyway, because there's no way.
Well, you know, if I can legally kill someone, should I?
It depends on the circumstance.
But in general?
What's in general?
I mean, if he's, like, threatening your family, perhaps.
If he's just, you don't like the cut of his jib, probably not.
Yeah, but you know what I'm asking, okay?
I don't know what you're asking.
Pearl, I promise you, I do not know what you're asking.
No, but that's what I'm saying, is, like, just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should.
I'm really just confused on what your point is.
So are women responsible for their sin or are they not responsible?
I think culpability for sin is contingent on knowledge and free consent.
Depend upon, to a large degree, how one is educated.
And the question of education is very important here, because the beginning and education of children is the primary purpose of marriage, which is a natural institution.
And so it seems to me that the idea that you are furthering and advocating, which cuts against the practice of marriage today, unravels all of these things.
It doesn't cut against the practice of marriage.
I advocate that the laws should change.
Right.
And until the laws change?
Men have to decide for themselves.
I think you're skirting the issue.
I think that men are tired of being told what to do by women.
So I think every man has to decide.
Do you disagree that every man should decide for himself what makes sense in his life?
I do.
I think men ought to do what's right.
Okay.
And you know what's right.
I hope I do.
I hope I've cultivated my faculties of reason and moral conscience to such a degree that they can correspond with God's grace and basically lead me right.
Yeah.
I mean, it almost sounds like you're playing God.
No, but I hope that I'm cooperating with God, and I'm a rational creature made in the image and likeness of God, and that fact is borne out in my reason, which is what we're supposedly here to do.
And the fact, Pearl, that you keep backing away from using our reason to come to certain judgments about how men ought to behave, and about good and bad and right and wrong, seems to me A denial of what is basically the premise of any conversation, which is that we can know something about reality and come to conclusions about it.
And I think you do come to those conclusions, but then you evade the responsibility for it by saying, I just tell men to do what they want.
No, I think that facts don't care about your religion.
So I think facts don't care about the way you feel about them.
What do you think a fact is?
What do you think a fact is?
That women are paid to leave marriages.
That's just a fact.
Yeah, and so, you know, that's just a fact.
And the way you feel about it doesn't change the way it is.
Actually, the way that I feel, which I like to think I've arrived at that through reason, so I think it's tethered to something real, does affect the way that I behave.
And the way that I behave does, to some degree, affect the social circumstances in which we all live.
So in a way, actually, you know, a friend of mine says facts don't care about your feelings.
But politics largely cares about your feelings, and your feelings are cultivated through virtuous and vicious habits.
And being selfish and sleeping around and not getting married and not having kids is vicious.
I don't say men should sleep around.
And getting married is very virtuous.
I don't say that men should sleep around.
But you say they shouldn't get married, if you were to give advice, which you don't.
I say that men should be extremely cautious when getting married.
I say they should vet women heavily, and if there are not enough wives, that might not be the way that they end up going.
So what should they do then?
It's so interesting.
It always goes back to that, like me telling them what to do.
Every guy's got to decide for himself.
In Pearl World, which we were living in Pearl World earlier, then what would men do if they begged you for advice?
I would say go talk to a preacher, your pastor, a preacher.
I thought facts don't care about your religion.
Or your father.
Look, I just don't, again, I'm not in the business of telling men what to do.
You've mentioned it, but I think you kind of are.
Not really, not really.
I just don't think.
Do you have any?
Because it depends on the guy.
You know, because you would first ask, like, what their situation is.
Every person has a different situation.
But every man we're talking about is a man.
There are some things that are common to men, like human nature.
And marriage, being a natural institution, is something that is common to men throughout all of history.
But it's not the way we do it today.
Some of us do.
Marriage today is not marriage anymore.
It's not.
It's not marriage when... I think mine is.
It's not.
Marriage today is not marriage anymore.
What do you mean by that?
When the average marriage is 7 to 8 years, when women leave 70 to 80% of the time, when women can file abuse or can accuse you of abuse on the way out the door, when women can put you on child support, when women can put you on alimony, it is not marriage anymore.
I totally agree.
I totally agree that we're confused about marriage.
I totally agree.
And so, again, you know, I have a hard time telling men to sign up for an institution almost blindly.
I don't think blindly.
With the consequences that come with it.
And I've seen men on the other side of it.
Men are nine times more likely to commit suicide after divorce.
Yeah, divorce is awful.
It ruins men's lives every day.
That's not something we disagree on.
Sometimes it sounds like you guys downplay it.
I don't think so.
You're denying that you're advising men to do anything, even though you're saying it would be a good strategy.
No, I don't tell men what to do.
One man might find that Christian virgin chick in the middle of nowhere that goes to Latin Mass.
One man might not find one close to him at all.
I know someone that runs a matchmaking service for Latin Mass.
Great.
No, they're having the same problems.
And this is for the Latin community.
I know someone that runs one.
He tells me the same thing.
There's too many men.
There's not enough women in this specific one.
And the women are a bit too high of standards, a bit delusional in what they ask.
Have you ever been to the female delusion calculator?
Yeah, but my point is, so you're going into the churches, you're finding the same problems outside of the churches.
Maybe some of them are a little slower.
Some of them are a little slower to hit, right?
Like Latin Mass, I would say, is one of the better ones.
But there's still a record number of annulments.
We still see more liberal... Again, not among the trans, but in the Catholic Church broadly, the annulments have gone up.
Correct.
And so, my point is, you know, it's going to be tough to convince men to join these things when even the churches seem to be going left.
Yeah, I agree, but... And the churches are teaching egalitarianism.
Some are.
You know, I go to, I went to, and I know a lot of these are anecdotes, but I just, when you start to interview as many people as I have, you start to see patterns.
And, you know, I'm hearing from men that the church makes their wives worse, not better, because they're being told in the Bible, like, they're being told in, You know, they're Bible studies, they're women-led, you know.
Heretics and schismatics have created problems for all of history.
Yeah, but I don't think the church is a fail-safe in a society that pays women to lead.
No, there's risk in everything.
But to your point, Pearl, you've said that, look, you're not prescribing anything, you're just observing how things are and the men don't want to get married.
Right.
I guess what I'm observing is that.
Men still like women, even with all the kind of weird rainbow stuff.
Men still like women, and women still like men, and they're still going to get together, and they're still going to desire children, or at the very least they're going to do the things that lead to children.
And so that's going to happen whether you advise them to do that, or advise them not to do that, or whatever.
And so in that case, don't we need to deal with What that institution ought to look like.
Rather than say, sit on your hands until we change.
No, I say fix the institution.
That should be the number one thing.
Because men are not going to return to marriage until you make the institution more fair.
It doesn't matter what you say.
It doesn't matter what I say.
You guys have been preaching marriage for a decade.
And the rates of marriage have still been going down.
Why?
Because the cost is too high and the quality of women is too low.
How do you fix it?
You increase the quality of the women.
You say stop being fat.
That's the number one.
Don't go on OnlyFans.
It might be on the list.
I don't know if it's number one.
I mean, for men, that's like the number one thing.
I wouldn't say it's fine.
I'm blessed with a thin wife.
Not now, because she has a child in her.
You understand what I'm saying.
And until you lower the risk for men, the utopia you're asking for isn't going to return.
Utopia?
I'm describing the human condition for all of history.
But what you're asking for, the families will not return.
And so I'm almost trying to plead with the trad cons.
You are not going to get anywhere shaming men for not getting married.
The only way that you were going to see progress is by making the institution more fair for men and giving fathers access to their children.
But when you say make the institution more fair for men, you're saying make divorce a little nicer for men.
I think divorce is the problem, not the solution.
I agree with you.
I don't believe in divorce, okay?
So if we could ban divorce tomorrow, great.
But I think for the time being, so if we could do that, let's go.
But for the time being, it's like, okay, at least, you know, the There should be mandatory DNA testing at birth.
No.
I don't know why you, okay.
Because it's calling my wife a whore to do that.
I mean, it's ridiculous.
Why?
Why?
Okay.
Because the assumption of the, first of all, mandatory, good grief, but the premise of it is that my wife is sleeping around.
I'm quite confident my wife is not sleeping with him.
The woman feels icky for a little bit, but then... The man feels it.
I would feel quite icky.
Wait, wait.
The woman feels icky for a little bit, fine.
Maybe the man feels icky.
Certainly he would.
You're calling his wife a whore and him a cuckold.
It prevents men from being put on child support and raising kids that aren't theirs.
You're saying they're married.
And if people want to opt out of it, fine.
Fine, you can opt out.
So it's not mandatory.
It's voluntary.
But there it is, voluntary.
I think it would be better if it was mandatory.
I think that's a better... So then the men can opt out.
Oh my gosh, what are you... I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying.
Okay, I would say mandatory DNA testing at birth.
That I think would be better.
Even though the men don't want it.
So you're telling a man now.
You're contradicting what a man has to say.
Because you haven't been in that situation.
Do you know what I mean?
I've been in birthing rooms a couple times.
Why do you guys make light of situations that... Pearl, I have been in the situation and you have not.
I've been in the birthing room twice.
No, I'm talking about a man raising a child that's not his.
It's not an uncommon thing.
At least one of my kids looks like him.
The other one looks a lot like mine.
Okay, but we're trying to make jokes, but this stuff is serious, Michael.
Like, this is serious?
I guess.
I guess the implication though is that, you know, in 2% or whatever, you know, where the woman has slept, cheated or something.
And again, you know, we're bringing in lots of different demographics and circumstances here.
But in that case, then what?
Then the parents get divorced?
I thought you just said we're going to ban divorce.
No, no, no.
Well, okay, if she's committing fraud, then yeah.
She's committing adultery.
Do you think adultery is grounds for divorce?
I thought you said we're going to ban divorce.
This is what I mean by the liberal kind of thing that's creeping in.
Okay, I'll give a couple exceptions, you know, but I personally, I don't know if banning divorce I think you're trying to railroad me off of the real issues here.
I'm not, I'm trying to figure out what you're articulating and you're contradicting yourself.
I'm not contradicting myself.
You just did, you said we'll have mandatory testing, we won't have mandatory, we'll ban divorce, we won't ban divorce.
I was trying to compromise here.
You said you felt icky, I said fine, Michael Knowles will get the no.
I get the exception.
Yeah, you can be the exception.
Alright, well that's good, I'm happy to be an exception.
But my whole point is that You know, this stuff is serious, Michael, and you are not going to see marriage return until you start enacting policies that protect men from the institution of marriage as it is today.
Oh, sure, yeah, but we don't disagree on that, right?
Then what's the argument for?
What marriage is, why it's still good to do, no matter what the policies are, why man is inclined toward it.
Any policy?
Yeah, I think marriage is always good.
So, any policy?
Yeah, I think any country in the world at any time in history, it's basically good to get married.
So if they make a policy that... I'm trying to think of something crazy.
I mean, even the policies that are today, it's like, you know, that if... It's not really any policy.
Wait, what?
What?
So the question, because I have a microphone on, was if my son were married and his wife cheated on him and had a kid by another man, would I support my son? - Yeah.
I do not support divorce under any circumstances.
So yeah, I think what, yeah, I, - Matthew 19 and 1 Corinthians 7, where he says, you know, this is the hardest of your heart.
You'll have to divorce your wife under the treatment of sexual immorality.
So the question that was brought up from off-camera was, what about the so-called Acceptive Clause in the Gospel of St.
Matthew, where our Lord says, what God has joined, let no man separate, except for the case of Porneia.
And what's curious about this The so-called Acceptive Clause, which in recent centuries some Protestants have interpreted to mean that if your wife cheats on you, you can divorce her, but which had not been understood that way for the vast majority of the history of the Church, and certainly still is the case in the Catholic Church and elsewhere.
I guess one way to understand that, and that apparent contradiction with the other synoptic Gospels, which do not have the so-called Acceptive Clause, is to remember that St.
Matthew is writing for a Jewish audience, and there was a live debate at the time over the exception, what type of adulterous exception that would imply.
And so one way of understanding Matthew chapter 19 and the Acceptive Clause is to say, actually what he's saying is, let's ignore this whole sort of The debate that's taking place between various Jewish groups, and just get to the heart of the matter.
But furthermore, the fact that you see it in the other Gospels, not repeated with the Acceptive Clause, would seem to bolster the traditional view of the Church, understood in the Magisterium and the Depositive Faith, and articulated by the victor of Christ on Earth, that no, you don't get to divorce just because you cheat on your wife.
Also, because just at a natural level, that would create a perverse incentive, such that if two people don't like each other, there's an incentive to just go out and cheat, and then you can dissolve the marriage.
Okay, so if he's raising a kid that's not his, you would support them staying together?
I oppose divorce in all circumstances.
That's a conservative view, not a liberal view.
Yeah, I guess maybe I'm liberal in that one.
No, I think you're liberal in a lot of ways, and I think the red pill is liberal in a lot of ways.
Which is why they're, ironically, just the flip side of the feminists.
Well, I disagree with that because, again, you guys are the ones pushing men into a feminist institution, which marriage today is.
And again, you're not going to see marriage return.
Well, marriage has been around long before Mary Wollstonecraft and feminism.
It's a universal institution that has been around as long as human beings have been around.
I think it's a little silly to call it a feminist institution.
Well, the way it's run today is.
The way it's run today, it's seven to eight years.
And the man doesn't get access.
I know, but no one's talking about you.
I'm talking about me.
But that's the point.
We're just talking about me and you, Pearl.
You know, where society is just me and you and everybody else.
Right, but that's the whole point.
And I just, you know, we could deal with shoulds the way the world should be.
And I'm saying the way it is now.
But I'm not, I'm observing.
I'm saying the way it is now, marriage will not return until you start lowering the risk for men.
I suppose the distinction here is you're painting my view as being some sort of utopian prescription.
But to the contrary, I am describing the way that the world is and has been.
Marriage is a natural fact.
It has been a natural fact for all of human history everywhere in the world.
And so it seems to me quite the opposite, that what you are Prescribing for men, though you won't take responsibility for advising it, is that men avoid this natural institution.
That no matter how much you advise them against it, they're not going to avoid it.
I don't advise men to, like, why do you keep putting words in my mouth?
That's not what I said.
I think it is.
Okay, it's not.
Every guy should decide for himself.
That's what I say.
But that's a different, to say, whiskey is tasty and every man should decide if he wants to have whiskey.
What do you think the solution is moving forward for men?
For men, I think at the political level it would be to reform the divorce laws and to ban no-fault divorce, to disincentivize divorce as a financial and political matter, to eradicate
Feminism from public life entirely, the whole preposterous ideology at every single level, to overrule the Obergefell decision which preposterously redefined marriage and took sexual complementarity out of it, which is absurd.
Once you did that, there's more to do, but once you accomplish that at the political level, you would go a long way toward fixing the problem.
Then I would encourage a return of traditional religion in public life, because not only is society not secular, but it never can be, because all human conflict ultimately is theological, and everybody's got to serve somebody.
So either we're going to worship the God who's, like, really God, or we're going to worship the God of money, or the God of casual sex, or the God of individualism, as the liberals want us to do.
And I think as a lot of The Red Pill wants us to do.
So I would restore traditional religion in public life, and the religion that built our country and our civilization.
And then at the individual level, I would, having now, I've now restored families, which is always nice to say.
Wow, good job.
I would recommend that individuals behave in accordance with right reason and virtue.
You've already gotten rid of the liberalism and the feminism.
You've gotten rid of the subjectivism and the kind of language you use, which is, just do whatever you want, man.
I don't think people ought to do whatever they want.
I think they ought to do what is right and that will cultivate their desires.
Their very desires to incline them, imperfectly because it's a fallen world, but largely toward things that are good and conducive to their flourishing, which is how we lived until relatively recently.
So I don't disagree with any of that.
My question is, what should men do in the meantime?
They ought to, well, be politically involved.
I don't advocate an individual political quietism.
They ought to be politically involved and elect good candidates and things like that.
They ought to, at a practical level, Go to church, work hard, put away the porn, don't do like drugs, do things you ought to do, date in a way that is virtuous, and then get married and have children and be fruitful and multiply because if we can't out-argue the liberals we might at least out-breed them.
And what do they do if women don't want to get on their program?
Pearl, I guess you have a dimmer view of men than I do.
I think men can be very persuasive and I think that men can lead women in bad ways and in good ways.
Okay.
And so I would recommend that men take a leadership role as we once had in the family and in society.
Can men lead women that don't want to follow?
Yeah.
Okay, I disagree.
I don't think men can lead a woman that doesn't want to follow them.
I think that's a recipe for disaster.
I think that will and desire are shaped by all sorts of things, including the persuasion of good men.
Okay.
Yeah, I don't think you can lead a woman that doesn't want to follow you.
So, I think that's a recipe for disaster, personally.
But I think, again, until the quality of the wives go up and the risk goes down, you won't Told you step one, the treadmill.
I mean, that's the first thing guys look at, right?
Treadmill.
Anything else?
No, not being fat.
What else?
I mean, I think women, it's better if we save our virginities for marriage.
Yeah, that's better, for sure.
I would say not Accusing your husband of abuse, taking the kids and getting fat after you get the ring.
Yeah, that's true.
But they've already gotten married at that point.
I thought we were trying to figure out how they even got married.
Oh yeah, yeah, sorry.
But that would be good too.
I agree, yeah.
You shouldn't do that.
It's untrue.
Yeah.
And I think advocating for divorce reform would be a good step.
So.
I totally agree, and I really like that last point, because it acknowledges that our behavior is conditioned by our circumstances.
No, I think you're responsible for your behavior.
Then why would we change the divorce laws?
So you can stop paying women to leave?
I thought we were trying to figure out how to get women to get married.
That was where we were, right?
So why would changing the divorce laws affect that?
Well, it would change the incentive structure, but I still think it's like, okay, you could be paid to do something wrong, but you're still responsible if you do it.
Sure, but you're more inclined to do it if the temptation is strong enough and if your moral fiber is weaker.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, fair enough.
I agree with that.
So we sort of agree.
I think we broadly agree.
The only place in which we really disagree, I think, is that, as you've admitted, you adopt a little bit more of a liberal worldview.
Whether that's because you say, well, it's just the way things are, man, or because you, you know, exalt the individual and the free choice, you know, just choose to do whatever you want.
I would say I describe the world as it is, where you describe it how you would like it to be.
And I would say I deal in is, and you I would say deal in ought.
But I think oughts to derive from is because I think that nature has an end.
So I would say I am describing the world as it is.
Obviously, it's my opinion.
Yeah.
I think you're describing a liberal utopian, literally utopian view.
How is it a liberal utopia to say that men should have access to their children?
Because it creates an idol out of the individual will and autonomy.
By saying that men should be cautious.
No, I'm referring to a different statement of yours, which is men ought to choose whatever they want to do.
But I always say, by following God and their purpose.
Right, and I'm saying their purpose can be known.
But we've also agreed that some people are called to, say, priesthood.
But we're not talking about priests, are we?
Some men are called to celibacy.
There's revelation.
But we've also agreed that some people are called to say priesthood.
So that's not in...
But we're not talking about priests, are we?
Some men are called the celibus.
All of the apostles weren't married.
Right.
The majority.
The first priests.
Yeah, somewhere.
But the first priests acting in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, who is the bridegroom of the church, have a special charism of celibacy.
But you and I, we're not really talking about priests, are we?
We're talking about lame men who just don't want to get married.
Okay, well, I think that every guy has to decide for himself.
Right, and that's what I'm saying.
And that comes from either God or your purpose as a man.
And your purpose as a man is?
Different for every man.
Yeah, I guess that's the liberal part.
It's kind of you do you, choose your own.
I wouldn't, you know, like you're a political commentator, you know, that's going to be different than what other guys want to do.
Sure, but I'm a guy who works my job, is married, has kids in as much as I'm blessed to have kids.
He respects my elders, has a patriotic loyalty to my country, and gives God, I hope, even some modicum of the worship that is due to him on this earth so I can enjoy him forever.
That's great!
Good job!
I hope that I'm doing it even in any way that's satisfactory.
But that's not just from my personal preference or my subjective sense of what my purpose is, man.
That is prescribed, and it's something that I've arrived at, as many other men have arrived at that exact same answer, through reason, that I take also as a matter of authority.
That's very different from, hey man, every guy should just decide for himself.
I'm not going to tell him.
I say it comes from God or their purpose.
Okay, so is it better to get married or better not to get married?
Depends on the guy.
There you go.
Because some men are called to celibacy, some men are called to priesthood.
Putting the priests aside for a second, what about the guys who are not going to be priests?
Some men don't have the option to get married, Michael.
I'm just saying, should they?
Would it be good for them to do it if they could?
I don't deal in shoulds, I deal with what is.
Yeah.
Well, you do deal with shoulds in some ways, right?
You do say some things are better than other things.
But on this question, you're not willing to do it, which is why I say that the red pill, though it acknowledges many problems in the world, that the red pill diagnoses a lot of problems, the red pill ultimately fails in its prescriptions and is ultimately kind of the flip side of feminism because it adopts a basically liberal world.
It's tough because the prescriptions kind of I don't really do that.
There's different content creators that prescribe different things.
I think you prescribe a little.
Some things I agree with.
I'll give one prescription, actually.
I'll give one.
Just one.
If you get married, get a prenup.
No, you can't get a prenup.
Because it invalidates the sacrament.
Really?
Yeah, a marriage is fully giving of yourself to the other person, no strings attached.
You don't even believe in pre-nups?
Certainly not.
The nearest I would come to a pre-nup would be, I call it the Michael Knowles pre-nup, and I'm sort of cheekily suggesting it because I really object to pre-nups in all circumstances, but the Knowles pre-nup would be whoever initiates the divorce forfeits everything.
That's the nearest that I would come to a pre-nup.
Okay, so you kind of, but in 2024 you still wouldn't, you wouldn't advise a guy to get prenups?
3024, 4024, 1024.
Sorry, I'm just shocked, like you hear the stories I'm telling you, you know the state of marriage today.
I'm articulating the Catholic view of marriage.
You know the state of women today, and men still can't get prenups?
Right.
To protect themselves?
Right, because marriage in its nature, as you said, is a lifelong union of a man and a woman for the sake of begetting and educating children and for the mutual support of the spouses.
So if you begin that institution by saying this might not be a lifelong union, you have fundamentally undermined the institution before you've even begun.
Wow.
That's crazy.
It's just the Catholic view.
So, yeah, but if you don't get divorced, what does it matter if you don't do it?
Yeah, you don't get divorced.
You're right.
But see, but that's what I think we're going back to.
You say what ought to be and I say what is.
You're also saying what ought to be, and I'm also saying what is.
No, no, you're trying to know.
I'm not trying to do anything.
Even in this scenario, the Catholic Church, the divorce rate is 35%.
It's not uncommon.
And so you're saying, get in the car, don't put on a seatbelt.
But the view that you're articulating is a kind of a liberal view, which is that we know what the Catholic Church teaches by just what the individuals might say at any given moment.
That's not how it works.
It works because there's a magisterium that's 2,000 years old that is articulated by a man who wears a funny hat.
But women are not acting in accordance to the Catholic teachings.
Yeah, many women don't.
I'm just telling you what the Catholic view is.
Right, right.
I understand, but I just, I think, Wow, I just didn't realize your views were that extreme on that.
You mean that I believe what every Catholic believed until like five minutes ago?
I guess it is extreme.
Well, I just, I don't know how you would tell a guy that you love, like, not to protect himself in an institution where, in 2020, in 2024, well, I mean, there's women that are good women at 22, and then at 42, decide the man's an abusive monster.
How'd they come to decide that?
Usually, a lot of times their friends get involved.
A lot of times they start looking at the wrong media, or they just get spiteful and decide to do it on their own.
Gotta watch how that spite begins.
I don't deny that it happens, that these things develop over time because of rot that can set into a marriage that a husband needs to be vigilant about, and a wife needs to be vigilant about.
So if a woman decides to leave, the husband is still responsible?
The man is the head of the household and bears the leadership responsibility, in my view.
It's not in the liberal view or the feminist view.
But he can't lead a chick that doesn't want to follow.
The Christian would say, yes, the man is the head of his household.
Okay, yeah.
But I wouldn't say that's typical in most religious marriages.
I've heard kind of the same problems in In the church and out of the church, so I wouldn't say that's the norm.
Yeah, I don't know, you know, what is it, 5-10% divorce rate among the traditionalists?
10% among the Orthodox Jews and 30% among the Muslims, 34% among the Catholics broadly, that includes people like Joe Biden, and then that's still 10 points lower than the national average.
No, no, but we just said the Catholic divorce rate's a third.
That's why I said 34%, the national rate's 46%.
But the Catholic divorce rate includes people who don't practice the faith.
That's still not small.
I'm just saying it's significantly lower than the average by 25%.
Yeah, it's just, wow.
Yeah, I think men should protect themselves.
You are shocked to discover that I'm a Catholic.
No, I'm shocked that you don't think that men have a valid marriage if they want to protect themselves in any way.
No, I hold to the Catholic view of the sacrament of matrimony.
That's shocking these days, I guess.
Do you want to get married?
I'm not proposing.
I'm not a bigamist.
I'm a woman.
You're a woman.
Yeah.
Therefore, you do want to get married.
Yeah.
Yes.
I mean, obviously, there's not risk as much for women.
But I don't care about getting married with the state.
I don't care.
I would sign a prenup.
I don't care.
If you don't get married with the state, what is that?
You'd just do it in a church ceremony or something?
But not recognized.
Yeah, the problem with the Catholic Church is a lot of times they won't do it unless it's recognized by the state, which I don't really understand.
The reason is that marriage is a public act, is the traditional view of it.
So it's not, you know, modern people say, oh, it's just between me and my lover, and we don't need a sheet of paper.
So it's before God, but it's also before a minister of God.
And it's also before the community, because marriage is both a sacrament, but also a natural institution.
So because it's the basic building block of society, because it's political, and political just means more than one person, because it's the basic unit of politics, It's public.
That's why we can't get divorced willy-nilly, because you've made a vow to God and to the public.
Well, you can nowadays.
But I would never want to put a guy in a position where he's signing a contract legally that's not fair to him.
I just think if I love someone, I wouldn't want to put him in that position.
So personally, I don't care.
Because you're paid.
You could divorce him.
I could.
I know I wouldn't, but I just, I think anything you can do nowadays to make a guy feel better about it with the risks today, I think is fine.
So I don't really... Wouldn't that increase the chance that he could divorce you?
Not that anyone ever would.
Yeah, but men divorce for, like, good reasons, where women divorce for the dumbest reasons.
I don't think there's any good reason.
No, there's no good reason, but they're more, it's like, abuse, infidelity, where women, it's like, I wasn't happy anymore.
So, you know...
No, because I think if you're a good wife nowadays, one, it's rare, so, you know, I think it's kind of the onus on me to make the marriage, like... But isn't it, so if you're not worried about him leaving you, and he... Yeah, I mean, if it happens... Then shouldn't you just say, I will never... If it happens, it's an L, but... It's a big L. It's an L, I wouldn't want it.
But wouldn't it be, when you're getting married to your future Mr. Pearl, you know, shouldn't you just say, hey, How?
I will never, under any circumstances, divorce you.
So help me God.
Which is actually the vow you take.
Well, there's so many women that say that, and they don't mean it.
But you do mean it.
I do mean it.
But I think part of growing up is being able to see another point of view and another perspective.
And just because I mean it, I'm not offended that he would want a prenup or he would want to protect himself.
You should be offended by that.
You should be.
I don't think you should be.
I think you should try to make men more comfortable with it.
But I don't think giving men a greater option to divorce makes them more comfortable with marriage.
I think it makes them less comfortable in marriage.
I think the greater the opportunity to break it up, the worse it is for the institution.
Yeah, but right now one party is rewarded where one's punished.
Yeah, one party has a great opportunity to do it, and one party has much less of an opportunity.
But I don't think that's ameliorated by growing the opportunity of the other party, right?
Wouldn't the better one be to just say, may I be struck down dead if I divorce you, pal, but we're in it together?
Yeah, but you can say that, but it doesn't make it true.
So I just, I think, you know... Your word is your bond, isn't it?
I mean, that's what they say, but...
But yours is.
Just because I would not leave and I would not divorce, I understand how many women have said that before and done the opposite thing.
And while, you know, it's not my fault, I think it's fair to make men feel more comfortable with it.
So I just, I don't, I don't need the government to, why do I need the government?
Because we live in society.
But I don't think I need the government to Confirm something that's between me, Him, and God, and the community that I'm in.
Well, and the community, but that's the politics.
That's just another word for politics.
I don't think the government really should be in marriage.
I think that's something that should be in the church.
What is the government?
I don't... What is the government?
You're talking about the government like it's some foreign thing.
We're just talking about the political... Well, I don't think the government should be the legal enforcement arm for children.
What else operates the law than the government?
By definition, the government is what operates the law and passes the law.
For me personally, Michael, I would be okay with a prenup.
I would not be offended.
I would not be offended by a DNA test.
I think that's fine.
Listen, I hope you find a good man based on that, but I think you'll find a better man if you say, I won't sign a prenup.
I think I'll find a dumber man.
Let me know in 10 years if the marriage rates go up with this strategy.
Well, look, they won't go up if people keep being big libs, but that's why I'm a little concerned that even people who rightly diagnose the problems with marriage are coming up with solutions that will not help in the end.
Mainly men being selfish.
I think that's kind of a mischaracterization of the way I would put it.
I don't think protecting yourself is selfish.
Or men, you know, sort of walking away, as you put it earlier.
I did not say that every guy should do that, so I don't know why you keep trying to say I said that.
You just suggested it would be a good strategy.
No, I said that.
You explicitly said that.
I said that some men will, so.
No, you literally said it's a good strategy to do that.
And I didn't say they should do it, so I don't know what we're... So, the phrase, it is a good strategy too, and one should, are semantically identical.
They mean exactly the same thing.
Okay, it is an option.
It is an option, but that's not, we all agree it's an option.
We're just asking what's best to do.
No, I don't, again, I don't try to say what's But you accidentally did.
I try not to say what's best.
Why not?
Why not?
You're a smart girl, Pearl.
Why don't you tell us what you think?
Well, because, again, I think it's about what is and what the reality of the world is.
And I, you know, again, until you lower the risk for men and raise the reward, you're not going to see traditionalism return in any capacity.
Okay.
Well, we'll see.
way that I would impel people to engage in more traditional and I think Lifestyles that are more conducive to their flourishing is just to tell them to do it and encourage them to do it.
And when they do the thing, when they do the rational activity in accordance with virtue, that will lead to their happiness.
So I think, sort of by definition, that will help.
But I guess the other thing we could do is disengage, sit on our hands, and watch Rome burn.
No, I think we could come together and, you know, make the laws more fair for men.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that would be the solution that we would agree on.
Part of it.
Okay.
But don't sit on your hands for the rest of the time.
That's number one.
Yep.
Yeah, okay.
All right.
And in the meantime, people will make their own decisions.
