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Feb. 17, 2025 - Lionel Nation
01:01:53
Lionel & Shaun Attwood: Why Diddy & Jay-Z Will Ultimately Walk
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Wherever you are in the world, your somber Sunday is about to be slaughtered with Lionel laughter coming your way.
Thank you for tuning in, folks.
All of the links to Lionel are in the description box.
And we have some very serious issues to discuss, don't we, Lionel?
What?
Oh, dear God, no.
Only by accident, perhaps.
No, but I've got some very serious things to do.
And by the way, for those people who don't know this, you and I never talk about what we're going to talk about ahead of time.
I mean, we kind of have a couple of things, like you mentioned Descartes and vitamin B6 deficiency, which I thought was weird.
But aside from that, we really don't know what we're going to be talking about ahead of time.
But I want to get to something which is on my mind, because it's my top of mind awareness, if you don't mind.
We have an expression, do something or get off the pot.
Fish or cut bait.
Whatever it is with Jay-Z or Diddy, do it.
Move on.
Let's go.
Do these gentlemen have the right to any kind of constitutional rights?
I think.
Do they?
Whatever they did.
It's not for me to figure out.
I don't care if you are...
A death camp, whatever it is, everybody deserves due process.
Either you have it or you don't.
And that's it.
So my question is, as you know, Sean, I always say that, as you know, if I've got a case, if I'm the federal government and I bring a case against you, I should be able to go tomorrow.
Let's say I've got you in some interstate, I've got phone calls, I've got the people, I'm ready to go.
I can go and you can say, okay, let's go.
Let me do a little bit of preparatory.
I'm not going to bring you cases 30 years old, 20 years old, somebody saw you, maybe you did.
I want to balance the necessity of addressing these very, very serious personal forms of assaulting of people.
I understand that.
But there's something called due process, where maybe I might not be able to bring a case because it's just too far away.
Let me give you a couple of things.
In the U.S., we have a thing called speedy trial.
Speedy trial is an actual statute where you've got to bring sometimes charges, felonies, depending upon the date of arrest, whether it's state or federal, but you have a time period depending upon if it's a felony or misdemeanor or whatever it is.
That's statutory speedy trial.
Then there's this thing called constitutional speedy trial, which really isn't set in stone, but it's the idea that you've got to be able to bring a case relatively You know, free or quickly.
And then there's pre-accusatory delay.
This is when I don't even charge you.
Forget the fact that I've charged you and I'm waiting to bring you to trial.
I just wait forever.
Now, from a practical point of view, for the most part, it always inures, it always benefits a defendant to put things off as much as possible.
Absolutely positively.
However, when you're in prison, when you're in jail, And jail prison looks just like jail holding, which looks like preliminary jail.
It's the same.
You want to say, bring me to trial, get me out of here.
We have the presumption of innocence under the Eighth Amendment, but Diddy is there because he is such a vile, he is such a horrible threat to society.
If ever there's somebody who's going to be absolutely positively on the straight and narrow, it's going to be him.
Because if you let him out, He's going to threaten people or he's going to flee the country.
Imagine him fleeing the country?
Him?
It's absurd!
It's embarrassing!
And we're pretending that he's, you know, some huge terrorist.
He's Carlos the Jackal.
It's ridiculous!
And people will say, well, are you suggesting he didn't do anything?
I don't know.
It's not whether you did it, it's can you prove it?
And this week, Jay-Z had his case Dismiss her.
Of what?
This Busby guy.
What is he doing?
How are you dropping?
You don't drop a case.
Did you change your mind?
Did you talk to the person for the first time?
Why did you drop the charges?
What happened?
What did you learn?
I mean, this is embarrassing.
And you just sit there with a smile on your face.
Lionel did call.
The outcome of the Jay-Z case many times on this channel, and it has come to be what he said has come to be.
So, yeah.
And that is because Lyle is a realist.
He's not, you know, him and his wife do excellent work against the human transporters.
He's totally against those people, but he is a realist when it comes to evidence and the mechanics of the law, the machine.
But you're going to want that yourself if the moment you find yourself...
Listen, everybody deserves to have the full force faith and credit of the government against you.
Where you say to yourself, okay, I screwed up, but is it really worth this?
I say, okay already.
Okay.
Take it easy.
All right, I made a mistake.
My God.
Meanwhile, Ghislaine Maxwell is...
Why?
Don't get me started with that.
It's so unfair.
The whole system stinks.
And I've been a part of it.
It stinks.
Now, I'll tell you who's really batting a thousand.
Alex Spiro, who was Jay-Z's lawyer, gets that one done.
And that doesn't mean there's not going to be...
I hope that's the end of it.
Number two...
He's bringing a case against the mayor of New York City, Eric Adams, who's going to have his case dismissed by Trump.
And three, I think he represented Elon Musk.
By the way, it has his interesting case regarding a paternity allegation, which is one of the strangest.
Did you hear it?
Not exactly a resounding, that's my boy.
It's like, woo!
Anyway, that's...
That's neither here nor there.
I'm curious, what is the case?
You didn't hear the one there.
There's a woman who claims that she bare, she bore Elon's 13th child.
Well, he's the breeder, isn't he?
He's quite the breeder.
He's quite the breeder.
No, no, but did you hear this case?
And he's like not really acknowledged it.
Somebody...
Put something up, but he said, whoa, W-H-O-A.
That was his response.
It's very strange.
But listen, he can afford it.
I don't think he's going to skip on the child support.
I don't think anything is going to happen.
But anyway, notwithstanding.
So, what does this mean for Diddy then?
Because Diddy was in this case with Jay-Z.
As Diddy is still gone.
The longer this case, Happens.
The more people are confused.
You've got people who...
I sent you something today.
I think it was from Vulture.
It was a chronology.
Did you know half of those cases?
I don't even know these people's names.
I don't know who these people are.
And I can see...
And the best part is when your client tells you, who's this?
That's a good sign.
Who's this?
I don't know what you're talking about.
So, I don't know.
Now listen, the bottom line is simply this.
Look, I don't know if you have an expression in your country.
We have ambulance chasers.
These are civil lawyers who go after where the money is.
Okay?
Gee, surprise, surprise.
Ask somebody, would you take my case on for free?
Pro bono?
What?
They're hoping for a payday.
And this is not, I'm not exactly ruining anybody's night.
I'm telling you that God's honest truth.
But do it if you've really got something there.
And even in the case, remember the case of Michael Jackson where everybody thought, oh, he's definitely, I'm not even sure about that.
You see, Sean, it's the nature of this case.
You see, there's this thing called, and nobody wants to talk about it.
Nobody ever wants to talk about it.
It's the degree.
It's the type.
Whenever, you know, you have the big M, you know, it's pretty final, you know.
He's not there.
This is a different story.
How do you have, let me give you an example.
And I'm trying to work within the parameters.
Jane, I mean, oh, bless your heart.
Jane, it must be pretty slow around those parts if you want to listen to us, but let me, let me, let me see if I can talk and do YouTube speak, if I could.
As you know, when a man and a woman engage in acts of amour, if they are over-the-age consent, and it's consensual, it's groovy.
You can do whatever you want.
I mean, you really can do whatever you want.
That's it.
If it's consensual.
When consent is withdrawn, one would say, you better withdraw.
Once you sit right, that's enough.
Then it's over with.
Let me give you a case that will blow your mind.
I think this was a California case years ago.
Girlfriend, boyfriend, in flagrante delicto, in amour, she says, I've got to go.
They were in the middle of this.
I've got to go.
Now, they knew each other.
This is many, many times.
He thought that meant, can you wrap things up?
He said, okay, alright.
I'll wrap things up here.
Later on, they had some kind of a falling out.
She said, no.
That meant, stop.
I've got to go.
Now, he said, wait a minute.
Gotta go.
We're not done yet.
I know you.
You're not a stranger.
Long story short, I think it was the California Supreme Court, and if I'm not mistaken, they upheld the conviction and said that that was a withdrawal of consent.
And any kind of confusion...
Has to be, you can't use mistake of fact as a defense.
Like, well, I didn't know.
Now this is like, you've got to be.
Who brought this case?
Who brought this case?
What about when you have somebody, what is the age of consent in the UK, where you are?
16. 16, okay.
What if somebody's 16 and one person's 50?
What if somebody, what if it's a 15-year-old and an 18-year-old?
And they've been together for the whole time.
There is no consideration for this.
I'll tell you a case I had one time.
I prosecuted a woman for aiding to the dependency of a minor.
Listen to this.
It was a dog.
I got stuck with this.
Her sister was a full boy.
The defendant, an 18 or 20 whatever year old, an adult, had a sister who was like 16 years old or so.
Who was a call girl.
That's a term you don't even hear anymore.
I mean, a professional.
Used to hang around hotels and wore minks.
Looked like 30 years old.
But, okay.
She, on her own, was doing her thing.
The sister never consented to it.
Never liked it.
But they roomed together.
One day, the sister, The one I'm prosecuting, 30 years old, she's painting her toenails.
When the sister comes in with an undercover cop, they're talking back and forth.
How much for this?
How much for that?
How long for this?
Well, what do I get?
Anything.
What do you mean?
Anything.
Anything.
What do you mean anything?
Anything, anything, anything.
And the sister, who hadn't said a word, painting her toenails, says, anything sexual!
Jesus!
And then went back to what she was...
They charge you with aiding to the, used to be called the delinquency or the dependency, meaning that you're allowing, you're aiding to a course of conduct that will result in this child being dependent upon the state of the government for help.
It's the most ridiculous, this is the most experienced, this woman had, she had at the age of 16. So anyway, so they give me this case and I say, you have got...
To be kidding me.
This is a dog.
Do it.
Take it.
I said, alright, but I'm not going to win it because this woman didn't do anything.
And I even told the defense lawyer, I said, I got news for you.
This thing is a dog, but no hard feelings.
I understand that.
I even told the judge, please, let it go to the jury.
Please, just give me a fighting chance.
They were going to J-O-A or dismiss it before it went to the jury.
Here was my cross-examination.
Here comes The 16-year-old call girl looks and the jury is looking at her like, what is this?
It looks like somebody from Dynasty.
She looked like a call girl.
Like from the 70s or the 80s.
And I'm like this.
I didn't want to look.
And the jury is looking at me like, what are you?
What is this?
This is the victim?
Just hear me out.
So anyway, I get cross-examination.
I get the chance to get up there.
First rule of cross-examination, don't do it.
Just don't do it.
It's their witness.
You're not going to...
Just have them say, thank you!
Get them out of there.
But I thought, this one I'm going to make an exception.
I said, do you consider yourself a good...
I think she called herself a working girl.
She had some euphemism for it.
I think we all know what that means.
Do you consider yourself good?
Yes.
Would you consider yourself a professional?
Absolutely.
And isn't the mark of a professional being a good liar?
What?
You've got to be a good liar to do what you're doing.
Like for the police to say, what are you doing here?
Like the hotel detective comes to go, what are you doing here?
Oh no, I'm just waiting for somebody.
You've got to be a good liar.
You've got to be quick on your feet.
You've got to be a good liar.
But you're not lying now, are you?
No.
Uh-huh.
No further questions.
I leave, I sit down, I don't even look up.
I don't look up.
I'm reading something that I'm, because I'm so embarrassed that I got this dog of a case.
And they're reading the jury instructions.
And normally I'm very attentive and I'm looking and I'm like, oh, this is a...
Come back, guilty.
And I said, what?
Me, what?
Guilty.
And I'm saying, guilty of what?
What did you do?
What did she do?
Not the call girl.
The sister.
What did the sister do?
I don't know what she did.
And I thought to myself, oh, this is the scary me.
I was the one arguing.
I said, I don't want any probation.
Nothing.
I'm like, you couldn't have told me from the defense lawyer.
This is ridiculous.
I'm thinking to myself, what is going on here?
This is, there's something very, I sound like Al Pacino, something very wrong here.
Anyway, this is, I've seen this a gazillion times before, where some people are hit with stuff, some people aren't.
I know nobody was talking about it.
President Trump was charged with doing something that doesn't make any sense.
You know that what happens is, you know what an NDA is, right?
A non-disclosure agreement called the hush money.
Do you ever leave a non-disparagement?
You work with somebody and you leave and you sign it.
You get your final pay and you agree not to say any bad about us.
Non-disclosure.
Don't tell any secrets that you've learned.
You know, you work for a BBC or whatever it is.
Happens all the time.
NDA call it hush money.
Hush money.
If you and I are in a car park and we bang into each other and I say, look, do me your favor.
I'll give you 100 pounds or whatever it is.
Just sign this thing.
Just go away.
Happens all the time.
That's what Trump did.
And they wanted to put him away for 34 counts of this.
Of what?
I don't even know what he did.
34 counts.
Anyway, so I'm here to tell you that the whole thing stinks.
Eh, we get things right most of the time.
The people who are in prison don't deserve to be there.
Most of them, they don't deserve to be locked up.
Because when you lock somebody up, when you let them out, they're worse than when you put them in there.
You only want to get the people who really are bad.
And when you put them in, you put them in forever.
You don't just put them for five years.
What's the point of five years?
Probation works more than ever.
Why has Jay-Z dropped the case against Busby if he didn't do anything?
Surely he would be owed millions for defamation.
Why has Jay-Z dropped the case against Busby?
You know, one of the things you've got to realize is that it's better...
Is that you making that noise?
Not you.
That's me?
Yeah.
What is this?
I'm getting this weirdest.
Aliens coming.
Huh?
Deet, deet, deet, deet, deet.
Huh?
Alien invasion.
I don't know what it is.
A couple of things.
First, every time, you know, I know Jay-Z's got a lot of money, but this guy Sparrow makes, I don't know how much he's charging an hour, $750, $1,000, who knows?
The money he's spending, the money he's spending is just absolutely Out of this world.
What is the point of this?
Not to mention, if there's a lawsuit, then you have a right to discovery.
And that means that, okay, I sue you, and I can bring you into a deposition, and I get to ask you questions.
It doesn't matter!
Lawsuits are the worst way to handle cases.
It's the worst.
Arbitration is better.
Just be done with this.
So, now right off the bat, I don't know if anybody here is innocent or an angel.
Nobody is.
Look, Sean, you and I know this world that they live in.
Not only that, from going back in the days of Judy Garland to you name it, to all of these people out there, these people who have been involved in the most incredible of events, this is horrible.
But let me also ask you a question.
What do I do when somebody who came in asking for it?
Now, you know and I know.
Let's go through a couple of things.
There is no such thing as she asked for it.
But there is!
You're not supposed to say it.
Not that somebody asked to be attacked.
I don't think we're talking here about people who were severely physically...
I don't know.
I don't know the facts of the case.
These are more of, it's kind of like either a consensual or maybe non-consensual through being knocked out or whatever it is.
But we're not talking about somebody whose eyes are shut, they're in a hospital and they can't, they're on a ventilator.
I don't think we're talking about that.
And I understand you don't have to have that.
But we're talking about people who went out of their way, many of them, to sneak into these parties, to be a part of this, to be, that means something.
Is this what we're going after?
We've got cases of kids and women and people who, some of them have never gotten out of a coma, who have medical bills and the most horrific of injuries.
And we also live in a country where the particular kits that people use, I don't want to say the word, but in order to collect samples, they're lost!
And we're going after Diddy?
No, I mean, these women did not...
You know, bribe doormen to let him in.
I'm not trying to dismiss it, but, Sean, we have to weigh the realities.
We have to be realistic about this.
So, Montu, thanks for the super chat.
The case was dismissed because Busby didn't want sanctions.
Eventually, Jay-Z still sued him for $100 million.
Jay-Z dropped his sanctions to allow dismiss.
Well, sanctions are, when I hear sanctions, there's two kinds of sanctions.
Sanction means some type of penalty, either by the bar association, the people that hold your ticket, so to speak, or by the court itself.
And last time, remember when Spiro, the lawyer, did the motion to dismiss, the judge went crazy at him.
How dare you!
And Spiro said, well, I want to get rid of the, lose this anonymous juror.
There's something wrong with him, anonymous juror!
Anonymous jurors are great!
How dare you!
Oh, my God!
I thought, wow, she just went like this to Spiro.
And I thought, well, Busby's going to take this as I'm doing great.
So I don't know.
Lionel was so right about these cases from the start.
He walked us through the process from the point of view of the defense at times.
But he was right about how easy it would be to dismiss.
And people held up against you at the time, Lionel.
They thought you were supporting heinous crimes, when really you were just saying, here's what's likely to happen, based on your experience.
Story of my life.
We had a case here, a terrible case, this woman named Casey Anthony, who was charged with killing her daughter, Kaylee Anthony, drowning or what?
And I said she's going to be found not guilty because there's no proof.
How dare you?
I didn't say she didn't do it.
I said you can't prove it.
Think about it.
It's like sleight of hand.
Did it work?
Did the trick work?
Was there present digitization?
I'm not talking about that.
But I will tell you one thing, and I hope these people do realize this.
I hope Jay-Z and Diddy eventually get together and hold a forum For young folks who are in the business and say, if they came after me, if they came after me, they'll come after you.
And you better watch this.
You better never have parties.
You better have witnesses.
You better have security.
They are gunning for you.
They are coming after you.
And there are women, and I hate to say this, and I'm not saying any of the women involved in this case, but there are predators who want nothing more than to lure some idiot into this and have them...
Do you have any idea of how many cases are filed or paid or settled out of court?
It basically amounts to extortion and blackmail.
This is the biggest money in the world.
Do you have any idea of cases you'll never hear about?
Never hear about!
It's ridiculous.
And it's sad.
You're getting asked about the ASAP Rocky case.
Let me see this one.
Let me see what the update is.
What is the latest on that?
Let me see.
Hang on.
I've not been following it that closely.
Let me have a look as well.
ASAP Rocky case.
Let me see what I can do now.
Prosecutor's team at ASAP Rocky case take issue with Rapper and Rihanna.
Yeah, I will peruse this one.
This is not on my radar.
I'm sorry to say this.
Let me see this.
This is from...
I'm reading.
This is from this week.
From E!
News.
As the case against LSD...
I can't keep track of the name!
He's accused of firing two shots at a former friend on a Hollywood street corner.
Oh, okay.
Well, that's it?
Aggravated assault or something?
Supposedly he's he didn't do it.
Rihanna's not enough for him to think.
So are we talking like aggravated assault attempted I mean gunshot cases are good because either you got somebody who saw him or somebody who said I was there and there was no such thing as that.
And you've got to ask yourself, do you really want to?
You know what this reminds me of in a weird way?
The Alec Baldwin case.
This was a guy who was charged with criminal management.
And he did.
He did actually fire the weapon, but it was an accident.
Why do you think they did that?
Because he's Alec Baldwin.
It was a terrible case, and I said from the beginning, and I can't stand Alec Baldwin.
He's a great source of revulsion, but he wasn't guilty of criminal negligence.
I said that from the beginning.
He may be a lot of things, but this is ridiculous.
You've got to be able to look at the cases here.
You've got to ask yourself, what's going on?
They offered him a plea bargain whereby he could have walked, and he said he's not done it, and now he's facing big time.
Well, when you say walk, walk, what does it mean?
Probation walk?
I mean, what is the term of this?
It was 180 days in prison.
What's his plea deal?
And now he's facing decades by going to trial.
We've seen that before where people think that they trust the justice system if they're innocent and they refuse to sign for a little amount of time and then they end up getting life done.
Absolutely.
Hang on, there's one thing.
There are some cases where you can make a plea deal.
There's a particular name of it where you basically plead guilty even though you didn't just say, alright, let's just be done with it.
I'll take the sure thing.
So I don't know.
That one...
That one I don't know.
See, this is the one I've got to...
I often learn another thing, too.
First, I don't know enough about the case, so I don't want to talk about it.
Because you sound like an idiot if you do it.
Number one.
Number two, unless you're in that room, you don't know what...
You can't read the vibe.
You can't read anything.
You can't look and see how...
I swear to you, I have walked into cases where I cannot believe...
How do I say this?
I walk in and I thought I knew what the case was.
And then I see the jury and I realize that and then I change 100%.
QQ wants to know, Lionel, if you are mocking the system for coming after Diddy because time is revealing nothing new.
Mocking the system is one thing.
First of all, there's something wrong with the case when the feds are charging him for this, which amounts to basically a state case.
That's number one.
Number two, they're charging him with what?
Conspiracy?
Racketeering?
Conspiracy?
What?
Where they created this idea where he lured people in and he promised them.
I'm thinking, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute.
This is not racketeering.
Who is he conspiring with?
Who is this racketeering enterprise with?
It's just the whole case seems like it was stretching.
And I think there's, what, three?
There's like three?
Three or so counts, and one of them is...
I mean, it's...
I don't think they mention any co-defendants.
The case is just...
It doesn't really...
That's a state case.
Let the state folks handle it.
They're better.
Have it in California.
But federal?
Racketeering?
What?
Now, I'll tell you one thing, which is the most...
What is this?
What does Lionel think about the theory that Celebrity B may have put a spanner in the works by saying age is willing to testify?
I have no idea what that was.
What is a spanner in the works?
Is that a Brit phrase?
Yeah, a spanner in the works means putting something in the works that's going to sabotage it.
Oh, I like that.
A spanner in the works.
The theory that Celebrity B may have put a fan in the works by saying age is willing to testify.
I don't know what that means.
I don't know what the end of that question means either, Jane.
By saying age is willing to testify.
Can anyone translate that, please?
I get that a lot.
Elaborate.
I get that a lot sometimes.
It's a good...
Listen, all I know is this.
When you're going to bring a charge against somebody, you better be ready to go.
You don't want to bring this case up and then later hope through some kind of finagling, and now we're going to get somebody to come and say, no, you've got the case, you've got the women, here's what they look like, you've got some kind of corroboration, something.
Give you an example.
We'll get to your transportation case in a moment, but let me give you an example of corroboration.
There was a woman that charged President, that sued President Trump.
Her name is E. Jean Carroll.
She claims, this was a civil case, she claimed some type of untoward behavior that was assaultive.
And one of the ways they corroborated it was she got, a friend of hers said, I was at home and got a call from her.
At the time, she said it happened.
She was crying, saying this, and I said, well, you should call the police.
At least there was kind of something there.
Okay?
Maybe.
But you need corroboration.
Sometimes there are people who, and the worst part about it, and this is the worst part, ladies, I want you to listen to me.
I don't know how it is in your country, but in mine.
The last thing in the world people want to do is to call the police.
Go to an emergency room.
They want to forget things.
They want to take a shower.
They want to take a bath.
Everything you're not supposed to do.
And not in the case of...
If I ask more women right now, how many of you during the course of your life, dating life, single life, remember an instance with a man?
Where you're saying, I'm not sure if that qualifies, but that was weird.
Or something even worse.
I cannot tell you how many.
So remember this.
The last thing you're thinking of is, why didn't you call the police?
Call the police.
It's not like somebody stole my wallet.
People don't understand that.
It's a different case.
It's a different thing.
You want to calm down.
You feel, aside from being perhaps maybe embarrassed or whatever it is, you have to look at this.
That's why the counselors are so important.
We've got to make this very easy for women.
Now, the problem also is, in the case where there's no physical, you can say it was consent.
I don't know what you're talking about.
It's one thing when you've got a broken jaw.
It's another thing when you're saying, you know, at the end, excuse me, you were on a date?
Yes.
And then they think you're attacking the woman.
You're not.
You're trying to understand the context of this.
You're trying to...
It's the worst case.
It can be the worst case ever.
Another one is the notion of...
Let's assume, Sean, you were a single man out and about.
Again, I don't know about your...
Place, but you run into a woman who looks 40 years old.
Everybody says, she's too old for you.
She's 40 years old.
Okay?
And, well, it turns out she has a form of progeria.
And she's not 40 years old.
She's 16 years old.
But she looks older.
And even all of your friends said, she's too old for you.
You know, that's not true.
She could be, who's, what are you, dating your mom?
Well, let's say, For some particular reason.
And there's no reason for you to be put on notice or to even think that maybe this person may be underage.
And later on, sure enough, she's 16 years old.
Has a disease.
Progeria, right?
Under our country, it's liability without fault.
Strict liability.
Statutory.
And that's it.
Period.
Period.
How do you...
What do you say?
Better yet.
Next time you say, well, I'm not going to be burned.
Show me your passport.
Here it is.
Here it is.
Here's my deed.
Okay, good.
And all of them are forged.
Doesn't matter.
Liability without fault.
Period.
There's no way around it.
There's nothing you can do.
Let me go a step further in this weird one.
Do you remember?
Did you ever see the show called To Catch a Predator?
It was on NBC.
Yeah, we've had Chris Hansen on multiple times.
Oh, yeah.
I think we've talked about this.
I've got a big problem with that show.
Really?
Yeah.
Guy calls up, he says, So, da-da-da-da-da, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, what is your name?
I'm Big Daddy S.A. Da-da-da-da.
How old are you?
I'm a 12-year-old.
Well, the person you're talking to, There's a 45-year-old guy named Chick who's at a sheriff's office and there's no kid.
But you think there is!
You think there is!
I'm going to do this and that.
But there's no kid.
There's nobody there.
Nobody there.
But you think there is.
You see where I'm going with this?
You think!
Alright.
So eventually you show up to this place thinking you're going to meet somebody and there's nobody there.
There's a guy there and they arrest you.
Why?
Because you thought You were talking to a 12-year-old.
You thought you were.
And what's even weirder, in some jurisdictions, you could actually be standing next to a young person and say, hey, would you like to do this?
And that's not against the law.
But if you do a computer, it is.
You figure that one out.
You figure that one out.
Okay.
Now, I'm not suggesting it, because anybody who does this, chances are, has carried through with it, and these people are sick, and they should be...
But do you see where we're going with this?
They thought there was.
So let's imagine.
Let's say, Sean, God forbid, you lose your eyesight, and you're blind.
And one night, you're out, and you're drunk.
You're blind drunk.
You're walking around, and you're gassed out of your mind, and you're blind.
And you think somebody's in front of you.
But they're not.
And you pull out a gun, and you say, give me your money.
There's nobody there.
But a Bobby, or whatever you call your cops, you get arrested.
You get pinched for robbery.
For thinking you were robbing somebody.
But there was nobody there.
But you thought there was.
They wouldn't charge you with thinking you robbed somebody.
Alright, give me your money!
Why you?
Blimey, give me your money!
I don't know what that accent is, but does that make any sense to you?
No.
Alright, alright, well...
Putting the legalistic side to the side of the moment, going back to Chris Hansen, if the cops were doing their bloody jobs, these people wouldn't be roaming around hitting on decoys?
They'd be behind bars, wouldn't they?
Well, yeah, but I don't know how you're supposed to do their job unless you do.
I don't know.
It's not a priority for the police.
Because it's not a priority for the police, other people have come in to pick up that slack.
Yes, but also it's because it's kitschy and it's weird.
Now, what's the difference?
What's the difference between that and a woman pretending she's a prostitute and trying to get you to make an offer to commit or a solicitation?
You mean an adult woman?
An adult woman?
An adult woman?
Yeah, right, right.
Well, if someone is an adult woman, and it's an adult man, it's a different thing than a kid, isn't it?
Someone who thinks they're going to meet a kid.
Well, here's the difference.
In our system, it is against the law to offer anybody money for that particular behavior, whether it's a pet, a woman, a child, anybody.
So it doesn't really matter their actual status.
If they really are one, it's against the law.
It's not against the law to make a liaison.
If you're in a corner, I know this sounds weird, but if you see a kid, you say, hey, want to come up to my, want to see my etchings?
Sure.
Is that against the law?
Not necessarily.
You're just asking.
But if I did that on a computer, it's against the law.
It's weird.
It doesn't make any sense.
I've told you this, what AI is going to do.
You're going to find people who are eventually going to say, I've got better stuff I can do with AI.
I don't want pictures of real, I don't want any, I don't need this.
I've got better pictures.
I can go to Grok 4, Grok 5, hey, draw me a picture of Sean with a cactus, and next thing you know, look at that!
Oh my god!
I'll take that.
That looks better than a picture.
Better lighting, better, want me to change the attitude?
Sure.
Now, If I have that, if I'm in possession of that, and the theoretical picture, the age of this theoretical AI person is an infant, what am I in possession of?
A sick thought?
It's not real.
The law doesn't know what to do with that.
They're going to say, well, we can't let them get away with it.
Why not?
It's a thought.
Yeah, but it's sick.
QQ wants to know, why is it not a crime to set up a dummy drug deal, but it is to set up a dummy child meetup?
Because, well, interesting, the law says you cannot.
Let me go through this.
It is against the law for you to aid a vet counsel or to conspire or to offer to buy or offer to sell narcotics.
To anyone.
If you stand there on the corner, Sean Atwood with a sign like peanuts, drugs, $5, that's against the law.
Whether anybody takes you up on it, whether somebody comes up, it's against the law.
You cannot offer drugs.
So somebody set up a dummy deal involves you committing a crime.
Now, we get into the notion of Again, here, entrapment.
Entrapment is a different story.
That's another little...
The idea that we have this statute in our country, in many states, it says it is against the law to use a computer to solicit activities with children.
Using a computer.
They don't even talk about the act.
It's using the computer.
That's what they're upset about.
Not that you're doing it, but if I wrote a note instead and sent a letter, is that okay?
That's okay.
Wait a minute.
Is it the act or the computer?
I don't know.
Laws are written so stupid.
I had a case with that.
It's so stupid.
I tell you this story.
This poor guy's daughter was crazy and she got in trouble.
She was at a...
Parade and got arrested.
Anyway, she threw a bottle.
So I looked at the statue that she was charged with.
It was this little ordinance.
I said, let me just see what it says.
It said, it's unlawful to throw broken glass.
And I said, it wasn't broken when she threw it.
I said, this is stupid.
They must be making a mistake with this.
So I went into court and I said, Your Honor, I know you're going to, this is nothing.
But the statue does say broken.
She didn't pick up broken glass and throw it.
We dismissed it.
Who was the idiot who wrote this statue?
I don't know.
I don't know why you've got to read it.
How is Sean involved in transportation?
What?
I'm luring you.
I'm making a promise.
I'm luring you to come and to be a part of my...
I'm going to make you a big star if provided you do such as...
God, this has been BS and lying since the beginning of time.
I'm not saying it's right, but this is against the law?
We have in our country here unaccompanied minors, kids that they grabbed from Venezuela, Guatemala, brought them into this country, kids with no names, no record.
In villages born, no birth certificates.
There's nothing.
Grab them.
Bring them in here.
That's transportation.
Nobody cares about that.
Joe Biden, that idiot, didn't care about that.
But we're worried about, did he?
Are you kidding me?
All of the hours I would have been saying, let me go and prosecute cases where children are Involved in absolute transportation.
None of...
This is...
You just want a big scalp.
You just want to be able to say, I was the guy who prosecuted Diddy.
And I don't remember.
I don't like Diddy.
I know what he did with Justin Bieber.
I think.
I feel.
I can't prove it.
But I don't have to prove things.
You know things.
When you're a parent, you look at...
You look at Ziggy, you say, I know exactly what you're doing.
I don't have to see it.
What am I, stupid?
You know what goes on.
But what my revulsion is a lot different than what you can prove in court.
Now that guy's a sick, but I can't, unless somebody brings a charge, I can't charge Diddy with something that I know he did.
What am I, a mind reader?
So, both are crimes.
UK and US laws are different.
In the UK, using a computer is malicious communication.
But conspiracy is also a crime, but selling you an Oxo Cube is not?
Confused?
I, again, I don't know what this...
And Michael's saying, Diddy's got hundreds of victims and we should let him walk free?
That's not what you're saying.
You're saying that this transportation of the Ladies of the Night stuff is not a very strong case.
Is that what you're saying?
I would take Michael and say, come on, let's go.
Show me where he is.
You got the hundreds?
Just give me two.
Just give me two.
Forget the hundreds.
Two.
Let's go.
I'm with you.
Let's go.
Well, I don't know.
Okay.
You should hear what people...
I got to tell you something what really scares me.
And we got to be very careful about this.
And let me talk about this.
We use this word conspiracy theory.
I hate that.
I hate that more than you can imagine.
deals with our arrangement, not with the subject matter, not whether what we're saying is crazy, not whether evil forces or the deep state or no, it means you and I if I pick up the phone and say, hey Atwood, yeah listen that thing we were talking about, you still want to do it?
Yeah, at We're guilty.
We're guilty.
We are guilty.
We didn't do anything.
Because it's a confederation.
It's an agreement.
That's all a conspiracy is.
That's it.
Conspiracy is from the Latin conspirare, to breathe together.
We're like one.
That's it.
It just deals with, if I act by myself, I can't conspire.
There's another thing too.
Can I conspire with a cop?
Probably not.
He's going to have two guilty people.
Sometimes cops will charge him with a conspiracy.
Oh, you were going to be on this too?
No, I was.
It can't be a conspiracy.
It's going to be two guilty people.
That's what that means.
Okay.
You and I have been doing this long enough, and you especially, by virtue of your imane popularity.
There are people who don't know the difference between suspicion and fact, but suspicion and proof, probable cause, and reasonable doubt.
They just know.
I know he did it.
How do you know?
I know they got Kennedy.
I know the CIA.
How do you know?
I know this.
I know they didn't land on the moon.
And they just say it as a matter of absolute.
Because if you do a show like I do, who wants to listen?
Now let's be careful.
Alex Jones.
Well, I don't know.
Maybe it does make frogs effeminate.
I don't know.
Nobody wants to hear that.
But that's the way that works.
That's the way that works.
So you've got to be careful.
We know these things.
And then what happens is, and you've seen this, people start getting PO'd.
You know what I mean?
They get angry.
I don't like this guy.
Me neither!
And we love to hate.
Oh!
Love is boring.
But you go, I hate that guy.
Look what they did to Bieber.
Look at them.
That son of a good dirt.
And it's fun.
And you take...
Next thing you know, we want the guy in the electric chair, and so far, he may have done something, but we don't know anything.
Nothing.
Lionel, you've got a question from a very interesting person that's just come through.
Now, Robert Hood...
He was the boss of the Federal Supermax in Colorado.
Uh-oh.
I don't know if you're familiar with his work.
He's done a sit-down with Sammy the Bull.
I like your work.
I would love, Robert, if you would be willing to come on and tell your story to the viewers.
I think the viewers would love that.
Viewers, would you like the former boss of the Federal Supermax in Colorado to come on and tell his story?
And it is amazing.
Put a one in the chat.
Put a two in the chat if he can bog off.
But his question for you, Lionel, is if Diddy were convicted, would you send him to the federal supermax in Colorado?
No.
No!
I'm not even sure if I would have the supermax.
I don't even know the supermax.
What do we need it for?
What do we need it for?
We've got like terrorists.
John Gotti was in there.
Terrorists.
All the...
Like the Unabomber.
All of the hardest core criminals.
No, when you say the hardest...
The only reason my first concern would be, could they hurt prison personnel?
Do you think John Gotti was going to hurt prison personnel?
No.
He could have your family whack at the blink of an eye.
He could have your family whack any time anyway.
So then cut off his ability to speak to people.
But what Supermax is, and what these people are, this is torture.
This is absolute torture.
This is, the idea is that we're going to punish you.
No, you've taken him away from society.
He's not, don't let him out.
Keep him there.
Make sure you're going to ask yourself, is this necessary?
Do you know what makes people the most crazy?
Because you know, you're going and you're killing their soul.
You just destroy them.
In fact, it's easier sometimes to just put them out of their misery.
When you put people and they've never had contact, they've never touched anybody, they've never been, you're just killing them.
So what are we doing?
Why are we doing this?
Because they're a terrorist.
Okay, fine.
Let's say it's El Chapo.
He's there.
You don't want him talking.
Okay, I've got it.
Yeah, he was there.
El Chapo is there, I think.
Yeah, he can't go outside.
He can't walk around.
Explain to me why he's got to be there.
Because he's a terrorist?
Okay, fine.
So you don't want him to be able to talk to other people.
What we do is, we're funny about this.
We really love to torture.
John Gotti...
Posed absolutely no...
Put it this way.
You wouldn't want John Gotti as your neighbor.
You wouldn't want El Chapo as your neighbor.
John Gotti never bothered anybody if you weren't involved in his world.
Granted, cement prices were up and that sort of thing.
These people...
Yeah, okay.
But do you want to torture people?
Is that what you want to do?
Now, Diddy and Luigi...
That's too much of an open-ended question.
If there is a category of people that are so dangerous to society, they will harm other people, and especially if you come into contact with them, special measures have got to be taken.
Then that's what Supermax is for.
But, Lionel, I think Supermaxes have been monetized by private prisons to house, to mass incarcerate people in general.
Because instead of $60,000 to $70,000 a year, they get $200,000, $300,000 a year.
It's called the prison industrial complex.
Absolutely.
Now listen, here's the deal.
If you want it, listen, let's start off.
Here's this guy.
We're going to call him, boom, Chapo.
Great.
We don't want Chapo talking to anybody.
Because Chapo will order people.
Okay, fine.
Can you talk to his lawyer?
Yes.
Can you talk to a priest or something?
Yeah.
Okay.
Are they okay?
All right.
I don't have any problem with that.
But we're going to keep him in this white room.
He's up for 30 hours a day, you know, in the light, and we're frying and making them crazy.
I mean, he can't look out a window.
I mean, do you want to torture him, or do you want to keep him away from society?
Listen, keeping away from society, absolutely.
I do not like the death penalty.
If you want to take somebody, Ted Bundy, serial killers, the Yorkshire Ripper, all these people, fine!
I've got no problem with that.
But what we do is we get medieval.
Supermax.
They don't talk to anybody.
When was the last time he went out?
He's crazy.
We make him crazy.
There was a guy that we had.
His name was Jose...
No, no, no.
Oh, God.
He was this guy they had.
They held him.
They had things in his eyes.
I mean, he went...
Oh, God, what the hell that is?
I don't know what the hell that was.
As I'm talking about Supermax, I've got hearts popping up.
In any event, do you want to torture people?
Well, let me ask you something.
Do you think torture is okay?
If it's okay, because we have this Eighth Amendment against cruel and unusual punishment.
Remember, punishment.
What you're talking about is making somebody unable to hurt somebody else.
And also, with all due respect to our good friend from Supermax, you're going to ask somebody to put himself out of business to admit, yes, I was a warden.
I saw Shawshank Redemption and it was like porn to me.
Yes, yes, yes, I understand.
Do you expect somebody to say that?
And granted, he's met some terrible people.
But look at some of these prisons with the Aryan Nation and all these other people and Shanks and all this other...
Some of these people are so...
Put it this way, you can't let them out.
The warden has responded, good answer, life at Supermax is worse than death.
Interesting that you say that, Mr. Hood, because most people will say no.
It's the weirdest thing.
Do you know during the days of concentration camps and death camps, the amount of...
Suicides were, I don't know if I said that, but self-harm were next to nothing.
Because there's this incredible desire to live.
That's why the notion of self-harm is so weird.
When somebody talks about this, it goes against the life force.
There are people who have this incredible sense of longing for something.
And if you went to somebody and said, listen, Chappell, babe, you're not gonna make, you're gonna...
I don't care.
I have some kind of...
And I love when people say, don't you understand?
They're able to watch cable TV and...
And I've heard this before.
What about his family?
What about those people?
What about them?
What about their...
They miss their relative and this guy's sitting there languishing in the luxury of relieving himself on an aluminum pot for the rest of his life in this room where you don't even walk?
Where you lose your humanity?
I personally would say, do me in!
But yet, unless you're in that situation, unless you're there, you don't know what you're going to think.
Let me ask you something.
Does it bother you for us to become medieval?
Does that bother you at all?
Do you see anything wrong with a country getting some kind of kicks out of wanting to hurt people and make them suffer?
Do you?
Because there are people who say, I want to get the guy who took that kid, and I want to spray it.
And we talk about this.
And I understand people are angry.
Do you know that in our country, when they had lynchings and they had public executions, families would bring their kids to the picnics and watch it.
It was bizarre.
So who's the sick one here?
Who is the sick one?
We as a society, when we clamor for this stuff, how about the folks, I don't want to bring up other stuff right now, but I, when I see people applauding horrors in the Middle East, I'm wondering, what is the matter with you people?
And I'm not trying to say I'm the most perfect human being, but I at least intellectually say, You know, retribution is one thing, revenge is another, torture is another.
I'm just as bad as they are.
I'm just as bad as they are.
Have you read Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil?
Nietzsche, hell, I inspired it.
He said that everything, all the laws that we have on our own society, not harming each other, not out-wording each other, not robbing each other, are reversed when it comes to other countries, other civilizations.
Murder, pillage, R-word, lube, ransack, steal the oil, bomb the poorest countries in the world.
Do you remember the great Milgram experiment?
Do you remember the Stanford prison experiment?
Do you remember the...
We are doing this.
I have a friend of mine, and I showed her a picture that I had from a certain place called Gaza.
And it was a child.
And I said, I made it sound as though this was from 1940, someplace else.
Because the picture was bad and whatever.
And I said, I'll tell you what this is about.
It's preventing this.
Yes, you're right.
And people will say, this is the thing that I don't understand.
People will tell me, follow this.
I am a survivor.
Of my parents who lived through this.
And I'm glad that somebody else now has to live through it too.
Or something like that.
I don't even understand what that means.
So I held this picture up.
I said, look at this.
She goes, yep, see what I mean?
I said, no, this isn't from what you're talking about.
This is from a hospital.
Let me tell you something.
We've got to end, Lionel, the next show starting.
Let's pick up next time.
Let me tell you about things that I've seen.
I won't go into detail, but I'll tell you the horrors and juries who saw this for the first time and said, oh my God, you don't know what you think you're talking about.
And I'll leave it at that, my friend.
All right.
Support and subscribe to Lionel's channel.
Links are in the description.
See you next time, my friend.
Take care.
All the best.
Cheerio.
Bye-bye.
All right, folks.
We have got Nick Leeson coming in next.
The rogue trader.
Do you remember the Ewan McGregor movie?
This is the trader that broke Queen Elizabeth and George Soros' bank.
Yes.
It's his first podcast that he's done properly.
The movie came out.
It was phenomenal.
But stay tuned.
This video will take you over to the Nick Leeson podcast.
It is fascinating.
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