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Oct. 9, 2023 - Lionel Nation
54:39
Jim DiEugenio and JFK Revisited — Proof of Assassination Conspiracy
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future.
I'm honored to have with me right now the best, I'm just going to cut right to the chase, the best commentator, the best expert, the best authority on the JFK assassination, Jim DiEugenio.
He is without peer.
This is...
The book, this is it right here.
This is the source, JFK Revisited Through the Looking Glass.
We're going to go through where to reach Jim, but Jim, first of all, thank you so much for being with us.
Okay, it's my pleasure, Lionel.
First of all, if you could, just to make sure we get this out of the way, JFK Destiny Betrayed, JFK Revisited Through the Looking Glass.
Are there significant differences between these?
Should there be one that we focus on?
Well, there's three major books that I've been a part of, that I've written.
The current one, which you just showed, that's the accompanying book to Oliver Stone's film, JFK Revisited, and then the four-hour version, JFK Destiny Betrayed.
And that...
It is like a compendium of all the information that's in those two films, plus stuff that didn't make it in the film, because we did 50 hours of interviews.
And with the film, the long version is only four hours.
So there's a lot of stuff in there that didn't make it into the film.
And dare I say, Jim, it is the interviews of the creme de la creme.
Yes.
I'm very proud of the cast of experts that we had in that film, which you'll never, ever see before, and I don't think you'll ever, ever see again.
We had something like 30 people from every endeavor in the JFK case, and I don't think any film has ever approached that kind of roster of authorities.
The reason I don't think it'll happen again is because we had to spend a lot of money to get all these people.
It got so expensive that we went to them.
It was actually cheaper to go back east and go to New Orleans and go to Dallas and fly them in than it was to fly all these people across the country into Los Angeles.
My favorite story is...
A roster of authorities in every field.
For example, we had Cyril Wecht and Henry Lee.
We had John Newman and Bradley Simpson on the historical side.
We had Brian Edwards on the ballistics, who used to be a police detective for 22 years.
I'm very proud of the fact that we...
By the way, let me say how that happened.
Rob Wilson is the producer of the film.
Oliver is the director.
When we started, we had a couple of story conferences.
Rob Wilson calls me down to his office, and he says, Jim, make a list of all the people you want to interview.
And that's the way he said it, too.
He didn't say make a list of the top 10 people.
He didn't say make a list of 10 to 15 people.
He said make a list of all the people you want to interview.
A wish list.
That's exactly how I felt.
I go, I must be dreaming.
Is this really happening?
Okay, so I went home and I made up a list of 34 people.
And I brought it back down to Rob and he didn't bat an eyelash.
Okay?
So, now, we didn't get everybody.
We got about 29 or 30. Okay.
But, again, that's much more than you would get for any normal documentary.
I agree.
By the way, one of my favorite stories is Henry Lee's wife, who was...
Anyway, that's an aside.
I've seen every interview you've ever given to anyone.
Jim, let me do this.
We spoke very briefly on the phone.
I'm a trial lawyer by profession.
I like to zero in on what I can prove, not what I can imagine.
There are a number of aspects of this case.
Why did they kill JFK?
Okay, we can talk about that.
Who actually killed?
Who gave the orders?
Okay, that's very interesting, fascinating.
Discrepancies and things that were omitted in the Warren report.
Interesting.
But what I want to talk about is forensic evidence specifically indicating a conspiracy.
That is, legally, two or more.
Guilty people involved in a confederation, not just one person.
And, you know, the word conspiracy is from Latin conspirare, to breathe together.
Now, the first question I have to ask you, can we start off with the premise, or should we start with the premise, that Lee Harvey Oswald had nothing to do with this, that the conspiracy was elsewhere?
Or is he in the conspiracy?
Joined by others.
Is he just this mindless dope?
Or was he a part of something without any idea of the totality of the intricacy of the event?
Which one is it?
On the morning of the 22nd, I don't think Oswald had any idea it was going to happen that day.
I really don't.
You talk about forensic evidence.
That's one of the things that we tried to get across in the film.
Okay, because this is something that all these other documentaries, like on the History Channel...
Not to interrupt, and I'm terrible about that, I've got a real problem, but just so that I understand.
It is your thesis, if you will, that he had absolutely no clue was there, went to work, and all around him, these events were...
Or being arranged, and he happened to be at this place, this Texas School Book Depository, unknown to him that there would be an assassination where this unique path happened to be right theoretically in front of where he worked.
And by the way, for whatever it's worth, I agree with you, but I just want people to understand this.
This guy didn't know anything.
He's not a dupe.
He is the dupes dupe.
He knew nothing.
This is about curtain rods, the chicken sandwich, all of that stuff.
BS, balderdash, bunkum, happenstance, other people, correct?
That's what I think, yes.
Okay, good.
Now, let's do this.
Of the forensics, and this is what's important, we have ballistics, autopsy, pathology.
Bullet trajectory, inspection of the head and brain, which is another story, eyewitness testimony, bullet fragments, evidence, rounds fired, rounds counted.
Let me just remind people that virtually everybody who was there that day, by virtue of the historical sequencing of this, had maybe served in World War II.
So everybody had been in the military, virtually all of them had heard, Weapons nearby.
So this was just a regular run-of-the-bill citizenry.
Most males at that time frame had military service.
So you have an expert witness list.
So when somebody says, I heard shots go by, that would be different than today, correct?
Just by virtue of the audience.
Now, where would you like to start off with evidence number one?
I called my first witness, Jim DiEugenio.
I've just explained to the jury.
That I'm going to not prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but I'm going to cause reasonable doubt as to you thinking that it was the lone gunman.
Let's start with your favorite piece of evidence.
Let me just preface this before I get started.
In the film, there were three keystones that I wanted to use.
The first keystone was the secretaries on the fourth floor.
Now, if your audience doesn't know who or what that is, that's Victoria Adams and Sandra Stiles and Dorothy Garner.
They are on the fourth floor at the time of the assassination.
Now, theoretically, according to the Warren Commission, Oswald's on the sixth floor, and he has to come down to the second floor.
Right after the assassination, because according to the Warren Commission, this is where police officer Marion Baker and supervisor Roy Truly saw him, and he could be drinking a Coke.
He might not be drinking a Coke, because that story in itself changes.
But there's only one stairs.
There's only one stairs that goes down in that building.
And Stiles and Adams were on those stairs.
After the assassination, they ended up going out the front door.
So, would not it be logical that they would have seen Oswald coming down those stairs?
And by the way, I've been on those stairs.
It's hard enough to believe that they would not have seen him.
It's almost impossible to believe they would not have heard him.
Those are not the kind of modern stairs that you have in an office building that are kind of shallow.
A lot of the times they're cushioned.
Those are the old-style wooden, I swear to God, they're nailed together.
So it's almost impossible to believe that they wouldn't have heard him.
And not only would you hear the percussion and the volume of this wood, but the speed and how he didn't fall on his ass.
And Slip, as he's speeding, remember he's trying to get out, he's just shot the president.
I think he'd be a little bit nervous.
You've got to come down this thing.
So they would have naturally, this is only one way down, they have no recollection of Oswald having passed.
So that's number one.
Right.
Now, the second piece of evidence that I wanted to use was John Stringer's testimony before the assassination's record review board.
John Stringer was the official autopsy photographer of the Kennedy assassination.
When they got him before the review board, I believe in 1996, they put the pictures up on the screen.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And John Stringer went up to those pictures and he made two cogent comments.
First of all, he said, this is Ansco.
Ansco is a type of film.
He goes, I didn't use Ansco.
I used Kodak.
And you see these numbers here?
In the bottom right corner?
This means that this was done with a press pack.
That's why they have numbers on them, because they're in series.
He goes, I didn't use a press pack.
And so Jeremy Gunn, who's the chief counsel, he says, in other words, you took the pictures by themselves.
And he said, yes, I did not take them in series.
And so Jeremy Gunn, who's the chief counsel of the ARB, says, Words of the effect.
Are you ready to say that you didn't take these pictures?
And he says, if that's Ansco and that's a press pack, I didn't take these pictures.
Which, as we say in the film, leaves the question, who did take the pictures?
Not to in any way interrupt, I got the first part.
See, that would be a very good one.
As a lawyer, I'd say, no, that's a good one.
If the shooter isn't even...
He can't be the shooter if he's not even positioned where he was.
That is certainly consistent with somebody else being a shooter.
Jim, what if somebody were to say, okay, look, Ansco, Schmansko, Kodak, doesn't mean that there wasn't a conspiracy.
Maybe they botched them.
The wrong pictures, I don't know.
Doesn't mean that there weren't a bunch of other people or that Lee Harvey Oslo wasn't alone.
But I'm with you on that one.
There's nothing like having a witness say, I don't know what this is.
So that's very good.
Now, can I get to the second part of what I was going to say?
Please, please.
The other question is, why?
Okay.
And so what we did in the film is we went into the whole issue of the weight of Kennedy's brain.
The official weight of Kennedy's brain is 1,500 grams.
Why is that hard to believe?
Because that is significantly above what the average weight of a male brain is.
They did a study, I think, in Denmark or something, and they had like 8,000 autopsies.
The average weight was, I think, about 1,340 grams.
Now, not only is that a significant difference, but...
When you match up what happened to Kennedy's brief, all the witnesses at both Parkland Hospital and Bethesda, which is where the autopsy was, you have witness after witness after witness after witness, I think about 11 or 12 that I used, in which they all said, That Kennedy's brain was missing a significant amount of volume to it.
A part of it was blown away.
And when you have both at Parkland and at Bethesda, Parkland was the emergency room they took him to.
Bethesda was where the autopsy was at night.
They all say the same thing.
So in other words, how in God's name...
Could Kennedy's brain weigh above the average when, for example, as we see in the Zapruder film?
Now, again, not being a jerk, but if somebody says, okay, they tampered with the findings, it doesn't mean that Oswald didn't do it by himself.
Here's the question I have, and not to interrupt your flow with this, this is the part that gets me.
When everybody talks about this, how many times did we see everybody in that emergency room, this part, parietal occipital lobe, blown off, entrance wound, blown off, this way, blown up, he's back here!
Where the hell is this coming from?
I know there was a magic bullet regarding back here, which we'll get to in a moment, but not only is that a magic bullet, but Oswald could shoot a bullet over the car, it turns around, Comes through, I haven't even mentioned the windshield yet, but comes in this way.
Everybody knows by seeing this, that this is a shot coming from the front.
Now, back into the left, I don't want to go through that Kevin Costner thing.
I heard somebody say one time, Jim, that the reason why his head went back was the jet effect.
That when you have a balloon...
And you let a balloon go.
It flies forward.
The gas comes back and it goes the opposite direction.
So obviously when his head went back, it was because he was shot in the back and it makes no sense whatsoever.
That's the part that gets me.
Not only that, and correct me if I'm wrong, a hole in the windshield, which they immediately repaired, replaced.
Let me say this again.
A hole of a bullet coming from the front.
Oswald's in the back.
I don't know about you, but I'd say, do we have that verdict for him right now?
You don't even have to tell me anything more.
And there was a dent or something, or some indentation of something.
Now, correct me, am I wrong?
Am I full of beans, as we say?
Well, no.
No, what you're saying is perfectly correct.
You know, there are, and we touched on this in the film, there's something like 40 witnesses who saw a blasted-out hole in the back of Kennedy's skull that night.
All right.
And that is strongly indicative of a bullet from the front because, you know, entrance wounds leave small holes.
Exit wounds leave larger holes.
And by the way, this was tried to be covered up by the House Select Committee on Assassinations, who said that there was a difference between the witnesses at Parkland versus the witnesses at Bethesda.
There was no such difference when there's something like 20 at Parkland and 20 at Bethesda who all saw like a baseball-sized hole in the back of Kennedy's skull.
The whole thing about the jet effect is so ridiculous.
Yes.
Because in that equation, the material coming out the back would have to be heavier than what's left of Kennedy's skull and brain.
Okay?
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
It's not anything like that at all.
Okay?
All right.
Now, what you just said about...
This hole in the back of Kennedy's skull.
This is something we tried to touch on in the film because when projectiles enter a target, it's usually the small,
lightweight particles from the projectile stay at around the entrance point and the larger ones As it progresses through the target, they either are in the mid area or the back.
Well, guess what?
That's exactly what the x-rays reveal in the Kennedy assassination.
There's all of these small dust-like particles in the front of Kennedy's skull.
The larger particles are in the mid to rear area of his skull.
Now, and by the way, what's so great about that evidence?
Is that the Warren Commission's own expert, a guy named Larry Sturdivant, a ballistics authority, he's the one who said that.
Okay, so in other words, by their own evidence, then Kennedy had to have been shot from the front.
Now, the third piece of evidence that I wanted to use was Commission Exhibit 399, the legendary magic bullet.
Okay?
Now, What we tried to show in the film, and I think we succeeded in this, is that the FBI commissioned a guy named Bardwell Odom, an FBI agent in Dallas, to take the bullet back to the original witnesses at Parkland Hospital.
Two guys named Tomlinson and Wright.
Tomlinson was a custodian.
Wright was a chief of security.
And they submitted to the Warren Commission that Odom had shown them the bullet and that they had identified the bullet as the one that they recovered on the day of the assassination.
Well, Tink Thompson and Gary Aguilar said, you know what's so funny about this?
Odom didn't make out a report.
He didn't make out a field report of his visit with Tomlinson and Wright.
Okay, isn't that suspicious?
And so Gary called up the National Archives and he said, are you sure that there's no report by Odom of an interview with Tomlinson and Wright?
And he said, look, we've done this already and no, there is no such interview.
And so Thompson said, well...
Why don't we talk to Bardwell Odom?
All right?
And so they called up Bardwell Odom, and they asked him.
I said, look, did you, in the Warren Commission volumes, it says that you showed this bullet, CE399, to Tomlinson and Wright at Parkland Hospital, and they positively identified it.
And Odom says, what are you talking about?
I never showed that bullet to anybody.
If I would have, I certainly would have made out a report because to protect my butt that I did such a thing.
And I knew right.
So if I would have shown the bull, I certainly should have remembered it.
So in other words, J. Edgar Hoover essentially blew away the Warren Commission with a cock and bull story that never happened to certify this whole thing about CE399.
Now, one last point about CE-399.
There's a receipt for this bullet, CE-399, that is made out at the White House, going from the Secret Service to the FBI, and then...
Arriving at the FBI headquarters to a guy named Robert Frazier, who's the chief technician there.
Okay.
Now, this arrival is a little bit after 9 o 'clock, maybe as late as 9.20 or 9.30.
But if you look at Frazier's notes, in his notes, it says, stretch your bullet, arrives at 7.30.
How could, if it wasn't even in Washington at 7.30, how could the stretch, and by the way, that's where CE-399 was found, allegedly.
CE-3, this is the magic bullet.
This is the bullet that this new witness says, oh, by the way, that was me.
Call me wacky.
I had it.
I found it.
I don't know what the hell I said.
I should have said, excuse me.
Just a little help here.
I found this.
But instead, I just dropped it off or whatever the hell the story...
I mean, I don't even understand it.
It's terrible when you can't even understand why is this happening.
Would you please address that as to this latest edition of the Magic Bullet story?
Anything to that at all?
Anything?
Well, if you want my frank opinion...
Yes!
I believe CE-399 was planted.
Okay, I don't believe that it did all the things that the Warren Commission says it did.
Oh, no, no, no.
Stop for a second.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You can't even fire it through air without having some kind of a...
No, no, but I'm saying this last witness, air, whatever his name is.
Oh, Landis.
Landis, who said that was me.
I dropped it off.
I had it.
I don't know what that does do anything.
But here's the thing.
Jim, just give me a second here.
I am not, as Gorbadov says, I'm not a conspiracy theorist.
I'm a conspiracy analyst.
And hence my title.
This absolutely, to me, since I was five years old, when I saw my mother crying that day, I knew something was up.
I've been just in love with the story.
And I know I can't prove this, but I swear to God, if you told me that somebody said, make sure that when we cover this up, we always throw in as many unbelievably crazy things to make people stop and say, wait a minute, what?
Who thought of the magic bullet theory?
Who in their right mind?
With the greatest mind, you've got access to every FBI, the FBI.
Who's going to drop something off and then expect history to say, I'll be a son of a gun.
Look what happened.
Look how many, forget the changes in midair, but how many things it hit.
Jim, why did they do that?
Whose idea was that?
Do we know?
Why do this?
Why not just ring bells and say, BS!
You know, why?
Because the CE399, the whole theory of the magic bullet, Was created by Arlen Specter, the former senator from Pennsylvania.
Because that allows for the number of shots.
If you don't have the magic bullet, if you don't have the magic bullet, the numbers don't...
Three shots, you have to have that.
The one commission was limited to three shots.
Right.
Okay.
All right.
And that's because there were two shells and one...
Live round left in the gun.
And then there was this magic bullet found at Parkland.
Okay?
And so Spectre, who was their guy on the ballistics, did some very simple arithmetic.
Okay?
We've got seven wounds in two people.
All right?
And we have this completely misfire at James Tagg over on Commerce Street.
So if we have to admit this misfire, okay, that leaves us with two bullets.
Well, obviously one blew off Kennedy's head.
So we're still left with the wounds to JFK's back, his throat, and in and out of Conley twice.
We have to find a way to do this.
Now, I saw this one years ago.
I remember one time when I first...
I've never done acid, but I think it must be like listening to Posner speak.
I think it must be like that.
We think, what?
And the best one I heard, Jim, was somebody who said, we found out why the magic bullet works.
You see, what happened was, you see, Kennedy was higher up.
Then Conley.
See, you were basing this on thinking they were the same height.
So therefore, it couldn't work.
But if you redo this, and basically somebody just drew a line that said, see, when Kennedy's in the backseat higher, in the front car, hello?
Anyway, aside from that, but when he's lifted up, then the geometry works.
Then the path works.
No, because the bullet came too low in Kennedy's back.
Okay, it's a pile of BS.
I'm sure you're aware that Jerry Ford actually changed the report.
And the reason why, please, the quote is why?
Because of what?
Because he had to raise the bullet into the neck to alter the trajectory.
No, no, but his motivation, his motive for the betterment of society or the betterment of...
What was the reason why again?
What was that?
He said it was for accuracy.
That's like me doing it.
That's like me giving a home pregnancy test.
It comes out negative.
I go, wait a minute.
Hang on.
Give me the pen.
I changed it.
So anyway, Jim, how many total bullets fired, rounds led?
How much can you account for?
I would say there were at least five.
Probably six.
Okay, six bullets were fired in Dealey Plaza that day.
Now, from the grassy knoll, I remember years ago there was this fellow, the men who killed Kennedy.
See, I don't know who to believe.
Blakey, this one, Bugliosi.
By the way, Bugliosi might be Italian for bullshitty or something because this guy is amazing.
I got to tell you a quick story about, very quick story about Bugliosi, just for the heck of it.
You know, a lot of people are questioning the fact of even the Manson story.
One time I interviewed him, he came in, he wrote a book about impeaching Bush or something.
And he sat down, and I don't know why I said this.
I don't know what went through me.
I have no idea.
But the first question I said is, we're here with Mr. Bugliosi, Vincent Bugliosi.
I said, Manson never killed anybody.
You know it and I know it.
And I was just kidding.
I don't know why I said this.
And he came back and he said, Hitler never killed anybody either.
I said, you're comparing him to Hitler?
And then, you know, we were off.
And I thought, oh my God, what have I done?
Years later, I found out, maybe I understand why he's a little touchy about the man today.
I don't want to get off into that, but just stoke that one away.
But the question is, the grassy knoll, Lucien Sarti.
Badge man, the frangible bullet, these people who years later came back and they were there and they heard the bullets from police.
Any evidence of the Grassy Knoll shooters back there, picket fence, anything that we have on that?
Oh, yeah.
Sam Holland, who was one of the best witnesses that we had, okay, he immediately ran over there.
Is that the deaf fellow?
Is that what?
There was a deaf fellow.
There were two people.
One guy was deaf.
I remember from watching this.
No, no, no.
You're talking about that's Hoffman.
Okay.
Sam Holland was on the bridge.
Okay.
And he immediately looked over because he thought the noise came from that area.
Okay.
And he saw a puff of smoke coming up.
All right.
And then he immediately ran over there with about two or three other people.
And he saw these because it was raining that morning.
He saw these footprints back there, walking back and forth, back and forth.
And somebody was smoking cigarettes.
So he immediately came to the conclusion that, yeah, there had to have been somebody on the ground.
And then, of course, you have Bowers, the guy who's operating the crane.
And he's the one who said that he thought he saw a couple of men back in that area.
And they might have been throwing a metal object one to the other.
So yes, there is evidence that there was somebody on the so-called grassy knoll.
Yes, and I believe that at least one shot came from that area.
It matches up perfectly with the Zapruder film.
Any shots from the Texas school book?
Anything from there?
Yeah, there might have been.
Yes, because the shot in Kennedy's back, I think, came in from the rear.
Okay.
So that there had to have been one that came in from that area.
And I think the other place was across the street from the Texas School Book Depository, the Dow Tech's building.
I think that was where the third assassin was.
All right.
I think it was a triangle.
Right.
Turkey shoot or whatever the particular phrase is.
Now, the thing which is interesting, and people have to understand this, and I've seen this and heard this a million times.
Everybody thinks...
Let me stop for a second.
Can you imagine if we had cell phones today?
10,000 shots.
Do you know what would happen?
Nobody would believe it.
The more evidence you have...
The less people believe.
But I can tell you, Jim, that you can have cases where you have eyewitnesses.
They're in a liquor store.
Somebody comes in.
They shoot.
Three of them didn't see it.
There's this idea that with everything going on, everybody says, there is the shooter.
There's the grassy knoll shooter.
I remember.
It's 1030-80.
It doesn't work like that.
People scatter.
Some people aren't talked to.
Some can't be found.
And jumping ahead.
My favorite.
My favorite.
And this doesn't prove a conspiracy per se, but when they found them, remember when they grabbed the gun and got their hands over it?
What are you doing?
I mean, you don't have to be Quincy to understand, you know, CSI.
Found a rifle, and they said, yep, Mauser.
Mauser.
And they're reading it.
Again, people who had been in World War II, people who have been in the service, they know.
Mauser.
Mauser.
Yep, we found a Mauser.
And I remember Walter Kronk.
Did he even mention the Mauser?
And then all of a sudden, not Remington, but Manlicker Carcano.
Not exactly, you know, the home favorite for usual firearms.
Did we just suspend disbelief that people say, wait a minute, did anybody, are we the only ones who say, You're covering something up.
Or was it a different time then, where people were just stunned by this and they just were more amenable to believing nonsense?
I can't believe that one.
Well, first of all, you're correct.
The first weapon discovered was a German Mauser.
And I think there's two or three written reports that say that it was a Mauser.
And as you said earlier, the Mauser is a much more...
Right.
And if you were going to pull off something like this, you're more likely to use the Mauser than you would the Mandlicker Carcano.
It's a carbine, isn't it?
They call it, the Italians call it the gun that never hurt anybody.
I mean, it had a three-inch drop.
Didn't Carlos Hathcock, the greatest sniper of them all, say?
We didn't even come close.
But all the time in the world he wanted, obstruction.
Nobody could...
Carlos Hathcock, you correctly said, was the greatest sniper of the Vietnam era.
He had something like 95 confirmed kills.
And then he became a SWAT team instructor later on after he retired.
And he had this obstacle course in Virginia where he would bring in police forces from around the country and train them.
Okay.
And so he was asked by a friend of his.
Okay.
And he said, Carlos, what do you think of this whole thing with Oswald and the morning commission and this six second thing and three bullets, two out of three direct hits?
I mean, is that part?
And Carlos said, Craig, I can't tell you how many times we tried it.
We couldn't do it.
Okay, and we did everything exactly to the book.
We didn't cheat like the Warren Commission did.
But not only that, you watch today, two guys, somebody who's taking the temperature, doping the scope, he's looking, you're counting the molecules of hydro, and they've got the greatest equipment anybody's ever seen, and he's got the...
With trees in front of him, and he's, I mean, it is so preposterous.
But then it gets, then we're off and running.
We're off and running.
And by the way, if anybody who's watching this for the first time, this isn't the best part.
It's like a soap opera.
Put it this way, if I came up with the tippet and this.
And there's Jack Ruby.
Jack Ruby gets the fastest case of cancer anybody's ever seen in the world.
This is the most aggressive stuff anybody's ever seen.
None of it makes any sense.
It was done.
And guess what?
Here we are looking at the 60th anniversary and we still don't know anything.
We still, no matter what it is, and the more information you provide, the more people get confused.
And I think sometimes it kind of hurts their head.
And let me just say this before I forget.
I saw this interview.
Every time I hear this question, I want to scream.
I want to take my finger, grab my uvula, pull it, and vomit on whoever tells me this through this volcanic emesis.
They always say this, Jim, isn't it just hard for people to understand that somebody as insignificant as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Took out America's prince.
Do they have to ask that question?
Is this some kind of a rule?
You have to ask this theoretical that the reason for our incredulity is not because of the evidence, but because our prince was vanquished and it's inconceivable that some negligible human being like Lee Harvey Oswald.
How many times have you heard that one?
That's been going on for about the last 30 years.
You know, and it's really a great diversion, okay, because it gets into the whole psychological thing.
You know, it ignores the evidence.
It says, okay, you just can't swallow the fact that nobody like Oswald could kill somebody like Kennedy.
Well, look at Garfield.
Garfield or McKinley are, you know, normally, with all due respect, when you get nuts, theoretically committing suicide.
I mean, it's rare.
Anyway, so here we are.
And again, I don't want to get into the LBJ and Mack Wallace.
That's later on the list of suspects, how this perfect symphony and synchrony of events happened.
But I want to go back to the idea.
There is no way that the evidence of other shots can be discounted, can be disproved.
There is a conspiracy.
I heard...
Bill O 'Reilly.
The other day with Tucker Carlson, both of these guys are off the reservation.
I don't know what happened.
I don't know if they showed him pictures or what, but Bill O 'Reilly, Mr. Research Guy, you know, he's a regular guy, and I'm just a regular guy, who looked at, with a straight face, and said, well, you know, Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.
I mean, that was it.
He was a nut.
And I'm thinking to myself, Look, you don't have to believe every aspect of Dulles being involved in this, but there is no way.
The evidence is irrefutable.
Other shots from different directions immediately refute and negate the sole involvement of one shooter, whether it was Lee Harvey Oswald or anybody else.
That's it!
I'm not making this up.
That's all I can tell you.
What am I missing?
You must be going crazy with people.
You're still talking about this.
Has anybody ever called you and said, Jim, would you come to the White House?
Would you please?
I think you have to speak to the American people.
We have to clear this up.
No, actually, nobody's ever done that.
Let me say something about Bill O 'Reilly.
It's really funny that he would say that because when he was first coming up in the business, okay, he was very skeptical about the Warren Commission.
If you recall, I think, what was his show, Inside Edition or something?
Inside Edition, yes.
Yeah.
Let's go live!
Well, he used to be friends with Gaten Fonzie.
And Gaten Fonzie was an investigator for the House Select Committee.
And Gaten was giving him all this great information which he would talk about on his show.
And then when George DeMorenchild was either murdered or committed suicide in Florida, okay, I believe in 1976 or 77, Bill O 'Reilly went to investigate that in Florida.
He was tipped off by Fonzie.
So, I don't know what O 'Reilly's motivation is for switching sides, but I think we have to note that to try and understand where he's coming from today.
I am, despite what you might think, the most scrupulous.
I haven't even gone into, do you think it was LBJ?
Do you think?
I don't know.
And I don't think you've ever gone that far.
You might have some suspects.
You might put it this way.
There's a difference between probable cause and reasonable doubt.
We have a lot of probable cause to investigate stuff.
Most of these people are dead.
To find out, you know, everybody from Mac Wallace on down, I understand this.
And then there are people who put out confusions.
But the bottom line is simply this.
It is preposterous for you to think, or anybody to think, that there was not a conspiracy, meaning at least two people.
What about years ago?
Remember the...
Whatever happened to that story about the motorcycle officer left his microphone open and they had acoustics?
Did they dispute that?
That was this irrefutable proof of other shots?
That's the reason the House Select Committee on Assassinations came to its conclusion of 95% probable conspiracy.
But see, whenever you get something like that, the establishment...
Because they simply will not tolerate an official decision that the JFK case was a conspiracy.
So there's been a continuous debate about this on technical matters.
And you have to really get into the weeds to understand what even they're talking about.
Because the whole acoustics thing is a scientific welter.
It takes you weeks to even understand it.
Jim, we have right now, theoretically, the number one most important, the number one most interesting, the number one most liked format is true crime.
True crime.
We got this guy, the Gilgo Beach Killer.
They found a piece of pizza and he...
And there's no connection too far.
And they love this.
And they love doing...
There's no bit of skullduggery or detective work too arcane for people.
Except JFK.
That's a different story.
Gravity, Newtonian physics, doesn't mean anything.
It was just one of those things because you and I can't get it around our head that whatever it is.
Now, Bobby Kennedy, and we haven't even got to RFK, by the way, which is another story.
But do you, and this may be such your expertise, but I have to ask is, I would say, you know one of the reasons why I wouldn't vote for you, Bobby?
Because if you're this nonchalant about the people who killed your father and your uncle, I don't know if I want you to be my president.
The Kennedys are like this.
I don't know.
Could be.
What?
You're spending your entire life over every bit of interstitial evidence.
You're not even related.
This is their father and their uncle.
How do you explain that?
Where are the Kennedys in this?
Where's Schlossberg, the grandson?
I'm JFK's grandson.
Do you have any interest in this?
No.
Please explain that to me.
Am I missing the point?
You ever met more of a bunch of nonchalant people in your life than these folks?
From what my information was, that they understood what had happened.
And in fact, I think seven days after the assassination, Bobby Kennedy called I called in a guy, a diplomat, who was going to go to Russia.
Okay.
And they called him into his house.
Jackie was there.
Went into the dining room table.
And Bobby gave, his name was Walton.
Okay.
And he said, I want you to give this message to Georgie Bolchikov.
He's a friend of mine.
Okay.
And I wanted to go all the way up to Khrushchev.
All right.
And in the message, Bobby Kennedy said, We know that everybody's trying to blame this on this Oswald guy, but this was obviously a large domestic conspiracy.
I understand now that detente will be put on hold because Johnson is too beholden to big business to continue what you and my brother were doing.
But I will resign as Attorney General.
I will then run for office, and then I will run for the presidency.
And at that time, we'll be able to continue what my brother started with you.
So him and Jackie understood what had happened.
But my information is, the rest of the Kennedy family, especially Ted, did not want to get mired down in this thing.
Because they understood right at the start that the whole entire mass media, the MSM, were a sucker.
For this Oswald story.
I mean, you know, the day that Ruby shot Oswald, the New York Times said words of the effect that not alleged assassin, but assassin was shot in the Dallas police headquarters.
Now, that's just crazy because...
The fact that he was shot live on national television in front of 75 policemen, doesn't that tell you something?
First of all, how the heck did he get in there?
And second, why would he do this on national TV knowing he's going to be apprehended?
Obviously, somebody wanted Oswald silenced.
And the story.
I would have said, Jack, all he had to do was say, why?
Because that son of a bitch killed him.
Okay.
As opposed to, I wanted to spare Jackie a trial.
He's not going to testify.
You know better than anybody about this stuff.
But let me just also say, and by the way, we have to do this again because I don't know how you keep talking about this stuff without losing your mind.
But, you know, God bless Oliver Stone and God bless you.
You have proved what I knew all along.
Citizen and civilian journalism.
Alternative media are the greatest sources and God bless the internet and platforms.
You and your ilk.
And you've done this almost like it's a passion.
You're probably wondering, what was it that pulled you into this?
Not just mysteries, there's something about this story.
Last question, what is it about this that accounts for your unbridled, again, focus and passion?
Why?
What is it about this case?
Well, I think America changed that day.
And I don't think it was for the better.
I think it was mostly for the worse.
Well, all for the worse.
Because I grew up with Jack Kennedy as my president.
And I remember the way America used to be.
And it's not any kind of sentimental sap to say that this was a better country back then.
As I believe it was a better country back then.
And I think we've had a devolution ever since.
I mean, let's just use one example.
In 1960, 75% of the public believed what the government was saying.
1993, I think, in Kevin Phillips' book, Arrogant Capital, That figure had declined to 19%.
19%.
And for the media, it's just as bad.
And imagine what those 19% look like.
But you know what also is very, very quickly.
The world was different.
Keep in mind, after World War II, the good guys and the bad guys, we were all...
You know, Vito Genovese was one of the greatest patriots who said, hey, listen, I got some connections in Sicily.
Right on!
And then we made some connection with Vincini and Gladi or whatever.
But OSS became CIA and all of a sudden there's a lot of folks who were very, very powerful.
And I'm not going to go into this Blakey mob stuff because I think that's a red herring and nonsense.
But it was a different world then.
There was the notion of we just won, we won World War II and the people in charge, the Dulles brothers.
Others were a sense of we're in charge and we can do anything.
And if somebody gets in the way, it's a different mindset.
It was a different world.
But it can happen again.
And this mentality is still there.
And as long as you keep doing this, as long as there are people like Jim DeEugenio and others, the message is you may not have to worry about Jim Jordan or whoever these idiots are in Congress.
But you're going to have to worry about citizens who do this because of this passion.
See, my dream is very simple.
I want the government to fear us as much as we fear them.
My idea of a dream is to have the president look outside the window and say, I don't think they're going to like this.
I don't know about this.
These people are crazy.
And every time somebody tries to get a little bit ahead, they're smashed.
They're told, watch it.
And I'm telling you, I don't want to get too far into this, but I cannot thank you enough.
This is the book.
Can we do this again?
Because this is exhausting.
JFK Revisited.
This is the book.
And also, I'm going to put a link.
Kennedy's and King.
I also say, just go on YouTube.
Anything you've ever done, any interview is just...
Superb.
And God bless you for doing what you're doing.
Thank you so much, Lionel.
And Oliver Stone and others as well.
That movie.
I'm telling you right now.
Forget Citizen Kane.
Forget whatever it is.
Great bank robbery or train robbery.
Birth of a Nation.
The Godfather.
That movie was transformational.
And you were a part of that too by continuing with that.
So anyway, I want to thank you, Jim.
And you have honored me with your presence and just promised me one thing.
Let's do it again.
Can we ever talk about Bobby Kennedy?
That's a great one.
Would love to.
You talk about forensics.
Oh my God.
That one's just, it's nothing but.
Jim DiEugenio, thank you so much, my friend.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Thank you so much.
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